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Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal

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Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/19/20 10:16 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Mikhail Zybin 3/19/20 1:18 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/19/20 2:03 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/20/20 11:07 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Jason Massie 3/20/20 11:17 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/21/20 2:48 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/21/20 11:10 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/21/20 4:14 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Anna L 3/22/20 7:29 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/23/20 3:02 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Anna L 3/23/20 5:26 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Siavash 3/23/20 5:56 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/24/20 10:28 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Siavash 3/24/20 10:48 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/24/20 3:47 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Siavash 3/24/20 4:43 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/24/20 3:37 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/25/20 11:04 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Anna L 3/25/20 6:20 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/26/20 3:28 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/31/20 4:18 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/31/20 4:30 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 4/1/20 5:26 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 4/4/20 5:11 PM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 5:35 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 9:30 AM
RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal Papa Che Dusko 3/24/20 10:26 AM
Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/19/20 10:16 AM
For a few months now I've been wondering how to proceed with my practice. Back in days it was Shamata (calm abiding) and recently Mahasi Noting. Since July just living the life but now feel as if I'm on the ride again. 

Im not really willing to do the Mahasi style again so I pondered what to do. Was thinking about "Who am I" or maybe just go back to Shamata? But nothing really got that "Yes, let's do this!" with a big smile on me face. Until I've heard Ingram talk about some Fire Kasina practitioners attaining Paths and also having Vipassana as natural part of Fire Kasina. 

Im all Ears now emoticon Would some one point me towards instructions and also add some info on when is the best time to do this (morning or evening), for how long (minutes, hours) etc. the more the merrier. 

Thank you! 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/19/20 1:18 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Good luck! You surely have visited this website, haven't you? There is 156-pages book available.
I saw somewhere on this forum the basic instructions for this practice (haven't tried by myself yet)
  1. Stare at a candle flame or other light source (e.g. the led lamp from your smartphone (be careful not to hurt yourself)). Try to minimise
    blinking and eye movement.
  2. Close your eyes, focus on the afterimage.
  3. When the afterimage vanishes, bring it back.
  4. Has it come back after having vanished? Has it changed color or shape
    even if just by a little bit? If yes, congratulations! You are now in
    some very light form of access concentration: You are meditating on a
    mentally created image, rather than the original stimulus that your
    retina received from the light, or its direct, physical after-effect on
    it.
  5. Play with it.
  6. If it vanished irreparably, and it doesn't come back, go back to (1) and repeat.

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/19/20 2:03 PM as a reply to Mikhail Zybin.
Cheers mate! Thank you. I'm hoping to hear some more from folks here who have hands on experience as they might have a few tips and tricks up their sleeve as to what to do and what not to over-do emoticon 

I wonder if it's ok to do this daily and if there is a difference between practicing late in the evening and morning/during day? 

As I had a practice break since July my Noting Vipassana mode has slowed down in every day life. This might be good for this Kasina practice as it's Concentration based. 

Thanks for that link will read it tonight. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/20/20 11:07 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
In that book Ingram is also suggesting some kind of mantra, I think you do it in the mind. Do you have to do mantra or can you just do visuals? 

I still can't find those instructions? Where did you copy them from? This book? 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/20/20 11:17 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
As others suggested, I would read the book. The actual results from the retreat are advanced and probably beyond just daily practice but there are lots of good instructions and info in those pages.
I would also listen to all of the audio diaries on the fk website.
There is a helpful fk section in mctb 2 as well. I would read the vipassana jhana section as well.

As far as mantra, pick a couple syllables. It doesn't matter what. Drop it if you can get to 4th jhana.

Have fun and become fascinated with the detail.

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/21/20 2:48 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
Hi Jason. Are you practicing Fire Kasina? I wonder if setting a timer is any good? Seem like these states are very fragile and maybe not possible to hold until the next sit. Or does it have that Nana feel when you get into a stage then you basically stay there as your base stage. 

Actually you know what emoticon I will just try it out for myself and see what's in it. Btw, I'm not much interested in reading too much. I did skim through the book to get an approximation of what folks experience. 

seem like this Kasina practice is not so popular on DhO. Reasons? 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/21/20 11:10 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Had 30 minutes on my own now so I lit the candle. Stared at the candle flame for some time (who knows, 2 minutes maybe longer). 

Very fast I've noticed the brightest part of flame to only be bright at the edges, left and right. Through the middle it was a bit darker. 

When I closed the eyes there was an oblong Green dot with Pink-Red on its edges. The green would be clear on outbrearh and less so on inbreath. 

If eye balls would move to left, the green spot would move left and the other way around. This way I centered the eye balls so to have the green dot in the center. 

After a while the red-pink edge turned into some kind of rays or maybe thin insect like legs. Likely like a microscopic creature with those many hairs on its sides. Then green dot started merging with the red-pink edge into a flower like appearance but this lasted very short, as if it opened and closed a few times, the way flowers do. This was not so clear as the image was small. 

The green dot turned Black, but something was in that black. Not sure what, maybe smoke or cloud (it has movement). 
The Red-Pink edge mixed with the Green all turning into some turquoise kind of edge. 
This image had shakes, very fast like distortions. 

Will try to find time tonight and do some more. Seems interesting and engaging. It's similar to Noting except it's all in the visual space. Here to there is investigation of what is. Interesting to get away from the body sensations and try another aspect of this mind-body. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/21/20 4:14 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Just did another session;

stare at the flame for some time, lock eyes
again the oblong spot is green, light green with that pink edge around it. 

Ive noticed my body twitching. 

The green spot was very dynamic. Almost as if it was a dying lamp. You know those lamps that still work but they are stuttering , blinking. 

The green spot turned to black yet again but this time I know what was inside that black. The entire green spot with the pink edge collapsed into the black oblong spot which had a green edge. I could see that green spot coming back through the black as if it was a medallion of sorts. Collapsing then arising from that black spot. 

The green spot disappeared and only black spot  was there. Then something interesting showed up. A human red siluette in the center of the black dot looking in my direction then turning around and walking away from me into the black spot. 

After this the 30 min timer rang so I restarted it and recharged with the flame Kasina once again. 

This time the green spot vanished rather fast into the black spot (same small size as the initial green spot) and this time there was a red siluette inside the black spot in shape of a man on a horse. 

The image was not very stable. There was loosing the image then returning to it then lost in a thought then black spot again ... so I decided to cut it as it getting late. I opened my eyes and blew the candle, the room went dark, I gave all merit to all beings and decided to close my eyes once more. 

there was a bright red rectangular shape that turned after a few seconds into a purple rectangular shape and then darkened more and more. After this I decided to call it for the night. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/22/20 7:29 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
My advice would be:

- just keep doing what you're doing - practising and recording as much detail as possible (if you feel to)
- notice any insights that arise but don't seek them
- cultivate fascination, openness, curiosity, patience - the best "results" with this practice often come from just letting go and playing - being curious about the visuals and enjoying them
- make sure your candle has a steady flame - some move around a lot and these make practice very difficult
- i prefer night time practice

I would practice for a while before reading too much about the practice as I think it's easier to go into this with fewer expectations about "what might happen". 

I am actually not sure why more people don't do this practice - I love it! Maybe the cultural fixation on dry insight and mindfulness? Also some people have mentioned to me that they are scared of the visuals that might appear - a fear regarding hallucinations. Personally I find this practice to be the most consistent and easiest way to enter jhana. 

Enjoy! emoticon 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/23/20 3:02 AM as a reply to Anna L.
Thanks Anna!

Can you tell me more about the need for Mantra. I seem to loose it very fast as I get fascinated by the flame. I find it hard to do two things at once. What's the trick? emoticon Look at image just by it already being there and actually focus on Mantra instead? That I could do. 
Wonder if this Mantra stuff is really Really needed or not? 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/23/20 5:26 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
I don't use a mantra for FK. I was actually taught the practice several years ago by a yogi, before I knew that Daniel and others were also practicing. So my initial instructions came from this yogi and he did not include a mantra. 

I find that if there is a lot of discursive thought happening at the beginning of a sit I just note "thought" and return my attention to the flame. Rather than focusing on a mantra I try to cultivate deep curiosity and interest in the minutiae of the flame - the colours, the movement, the shape - and appreciation/wonder/awe of its beauty. I find that discipline plus wonder/curiosity leads to access concentration. 

I know some practitioners use a mantra but I have not yet experiemented with it. It could be helpful in terms of giving the mind something else to do so that discursive thoughts do not arise. 

I would just experiment and see how you go! 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/23/20 5:56 PM as a reply to Anna L.
It can deepen concentration, and block some of the auditory thoughs, and also it can lead to hearing voices, similar to seeing visuals (Divine ear). The auditory part of mind becomes more developed so it becomes easier to notice mentals talks in different distances. adding body and breath sensations to FK works better for me in terms of quieting the mind.

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/24/20 10:26 AM as a reply to Anna L.
Thanks Anna. I seem to be doing same. Interest in the seen what takes away all my attention. I'm one thing at a time kind of person. 

I was minding my boy for the last two days and find to be extremely tired in the evening. No practice took place. 
Today back to work and now have stiff neck pain from moving hundreds of packages. Will see if I feel better in the evening to ignite the flame. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/24/20 10:28 AM as a reply to Siavash.
Cheers mate! I will see what this brings about. Last thing I want is headache from staring into one object for too long emoticon 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/24/20 10:48 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Cheers mate! I will see what this brings about. Last thing I want is headache from staring into one object for too long emoticon 


Best of luck :-)
The amount of light in the room when staring at the candle, and also the location of the candle and the flame can contribute to headache and eye pain. You might want to play with having another light source in the room instead of pitch dark room, and also putting the candle closer or farther and lower or hight and see how it goes.
And it's natural to have headache and eye pain for a few days in the beginning. If it persists, then it's an issue.

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/24/20 3:37 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Even though very tired and with stiff neck I managed to fire up the candle for 30 minutes. 

Same visuals as before except this time the Green spot turned Blue for a bit. 

Also at some stage the Black spot which is around the Green spot had a Purple halo around it (dark purple like a mist)

Kept refreshing with flame 4 times as the image would didsapear after a while. 

I have noticed that each time I lock the eyes after staring at the flame, for a very short moment the after image is very clear and seems like Zoomed In, and then it goes to the usual distance, gets much smaller Green oblong spot with Pink edge. 
Once I have seen the details well and it resembled an Angel with wings. Funny as I'm not a religious lad. Any way this happens immediately after locking the eyelids and lasts less than a second, very short indeed. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/24/20 3:47 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Oh I don't have a headache from that but the stiff neck rather emoticon (sorting out packages in the postal service). 

I do wonder if it's best to have a dark background for the candle? Or plain white like the wall? Right now I have it on my table in front of my guitar gear (my pedal board is behind it). 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/24/20 4:43 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh I don't have a headache from that but the stiff neck rather emoticon (sorting out packages in the postal service). 

I do wonder if it's best to have a dark background for the candle? Or plain white like the wall? Right now I have it on my table in front of my guitar gear (my pedal board is behind it). 


Each one can have different effects in terms of brightness of the dot, and the colors in the murk. I would say have a dark or relatively dark background for a while in the beginning, and stabilize on that, and then play with different options.

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/25/20 11:04 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
One thing I've noticed since I've begun with FK is a knee jerk reaction towards having good time in meditation. In Vipassana one's focus is on body sensation and all mind stuff is just that, stuff, garbage to be noticed and let go off. 

In FK there is more of this Fascination with what's been experienced. Which can be pleasant and relaxed. 

I have noticed in my life for several years really, that I'm not really allowing myself to enjoy mind states. They are all garbage after all emoticon right emoticon 

I think it's time to let go of this perception and learn to enjoy experiences. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/25/20 6:20 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Nice insight! That's why I love FK - attention to and cultivation of that pleasantness leads to jhana. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/26/20 3:28 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Oh boy was this sesson boring. It was like "oh no, not again that ugly light green dot with that ugly pink edge around it!" I mean it really is kitsch! Any way, same old thing, green ugly oblong with pink edge but tonight it turned into Pink dot that is surrounded by Red edge. I was moving the eyes left and right and the dot was moving with it so it certainly was not a mind object but still in the eye system.

There was lots of twitching in the legs and stifness in the neck. I was rather calm and relaxed and breathing was relaxed. Still all was just plain boring.

I had to re-charge by looking at the flame every 5 minutes or so. Practiced for 30 min.

Tomorrow is my last day at work and from then on I will look after my 4 year old boy as my partner needs to go to work. This will mean more tiredness as he is a lively little fellow emoticon 

I dont see how this practice of FK can be of benefit if one is very exhausted in the evening? Its like a fregile little plant that needs special care to keep it alive. I was never into such plants. I prefer hardy Cactus plants emoticon 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/31/20 4:18 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Was testing with candle flae distance from the eys, 20cm to about arms lenght. Means nothing. Tried also the smart phone light and got pain in me eyes (will not try that one any time soon).

The very stiff neck pain is still here and very much has same intensity. Im starting to doubt it has nothing to do with my (now ex) work but with 3C's. Lots of old memories also present as of late and this neck stifness is just irritating.

While doing FK I dont feel the stiffness but as soon I get up its there again.

Tonight added some silent noting to FK and even started silent Commenting/Noting on what the Dot was doing. Same old stuff except this time the Green dot would very fast turn from solid green dot to mixture between green and that pink halo. Pink halo would at some stage swallow the green and then there would be a Red ring around the Pink that would swallow the pink or mix up with it and there was a Black oblong spot/dot around this red-pink mixture (looks like an eye). The black spot has a cloudy geyish halo around it. 

The Red-Pink center at one stage turned rappidly into some darker Blue color but turned back into Black and the red-pink came out of the Black's center again.

Recharged with flame several times during 40 minutes session.

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
3/31/20 4:30 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Just to add;

I have noticed each time I recharge with flame and lock the eyes I see the usual Green oblong spot with pink edge to it but this time I could see a large Ochre base as foggy large dics maybe 5 cm beneath it. This would vanish after some time.

Also when the Blue appeared from the red-pink, the Blue was surrounded by Purple halo This halo remained for a while even thought the Blue dot disappeared and the Black oblong dot came back.


Still cant sense much Interest arising. All this stuff is rather just stuff flickering which is fine but nothing to write home about. Very much similar to Noting except here you look at the flame and then the after image and your reactions to it. Vipassana 101 emoticon 
Sure the flame itself can be very calming and then the focus on after image can also have calming effects.

I will try and give this FK method at least 6 months of daily practice before I make final judgement.

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
4/1/20 5:26 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
The green spot with pink edge was very jerky tonigh! After closing the eyes it would appear after a slight moment, then would get clear green for a short moment and then goes into a jerky distortion, constant motion. It would appear and disappear fast. Something to do with my eye balls moving. There was absolutely no way to stabilize the dot "over there". 

Off cushion still having stiff neck pain and as of today flu like feeling and even some sense of fever in the throat area (warm to the touch). If it's not the 3C's then it could be start of the Coronita bug emoticon 

I find smell and fumes of those white candles rather sickening. Must get me some beeswax candles. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
4/4/20 5:11 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Found out how to lower the LED light intensity on me smart phone so used it tonight instead of those white candles which release nano-particles (not healthy dear folks). 

Did a 30 min session and got pressure in my eyes. Not nice. Will return to candle flame. 

Btw, I'm finding it hard to do FK in the late evening as I'm tired. End up yawning throughout the sit. 

During the day I look after our 4 yo boy so practice is impossible. He falls a sleep late so by the time I can practice I'm knackered tired and that Flame just makes me feel cozy and sleepy emoticon 

Will see if I can find time during the day to do it instead just to feel the difference between night and day practice. 

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
4/5/20 5:35 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
I have been noticing something interesting the next day (day after the evening FK practice). I have noticed the same back in my Shamatha days; there is this "focusing" going on during the day, as when focusing on the concentration object. This causes lots of edgy feelings off the cushion as Objects are arising and passing very fast during off cushion life. 

Back in the days of Shamatha this led to retrating into myself alot and only obsessing with my Concentration mind state where I can solidify into the object of choice (which later kicked my sorry ars in the Dissolution stage)

In comparisson to the Mahasi Noting;
When Noting I had no such off the cushion issues and would be very much engaged in daily life. Both on and off cushion dealth with A&P so there was no inbalance between the two. Nice.

Concentration seems like drinking a nice red wine and then you wake up the next day with a hangover until you again pour yourself another glass of red wine and get tipsy again (mmm, emoticon ).

This is the biggest off putting factor for me when it comes to Concentration practice in general. Maybe such practice good in a monastery life-sttyle or on a long retreat but as a daily practice I see this causing issues, for me that is.

Wonder if others noticed this too?

RE: Papa Che’s Fire Kasina Journal
Answer
4/5/20 9:30 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Im putting a cork into this FK practice and see if it spikes better interest in the past. As of today I have re-started my main Noting Aloud practice and will open a new thread to log about it.

Ta ta emoticon