Questions upon returning from one month Vipassana Retreat

Michelle Ooi, modified 13 Years ago at 6/27/11 5:41 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/27/11 5:41 PM

Questions upon returning from one month Vipassana Retreat

Posts: 3 Join Date: 1/24/11 Recent Posts
Just returned from a one month intensive Vipassana Retreat.

I lasted a total of 26 days, from day 1 to 24, i practiced really really hard every single second, directly in accordance with instructions (noting every arising object in each present moment from morning till sleep) spent about 2 weeks before hitting equanimity on day 15th. This retreat was really hard for me, every morning after breakfast and everyday after lunch, the monks will be walking around the compound checking out yogis, the sight of the monks brought intense anger and rage in me (projection of feelings from the past), the first 2 weeks I was struggling with not getting overwhelmed by the anger/sadness, often noted anger, anger..(identifications, attachment, non-self) and eventually succeeded in staying calm at the sight of the monks. The last 2 weeks was mostly in equanimity, i think mostly in low equanimity and had some periods of intense peace.. Day 25th and 26th, the mind was overwhelmed with anger and I could not note anymore, lots of unwholesome thoughts towards self and others and left early...Questions on the practice:

1. I noticed that some days the mind is peaceful and quiet and noting is very easy with not much effort involved and practice is a joy. However, the last 3 days of the retreat, I was overwhelmed with intense anger which lasted several days... Noting is impossible during these days as the mind has no patience whatsoever, continuous self destructive thoughts arise all day long, loud yogis will bring unwholesome thoughts.. sights of monks/any yogis will bring unwholesome thoughts... The mind does not want to note any more, it's like i ran out of gas as i practised intensely for the first 24 days ?

2. Pain - how does one deal with pain.. The monk's advise is yogi must sit not moving for one hour.. i tried doing this for 3 days while in equanimity, some time sitting in pain for the entire hour but the mind was completely constricted and tense at the end of the hour, albeit mindfulness/concentration was very strong...

3. Sitting - Is the primary focus of sitting meditation to fucus on rising/falling ? I have difficulty with rising/falling as some days when the anger is intensely strong, the stomach is a knot, i can't feel anything here.. I ask a monk who said, you can note hearing the entire hour, not only rising/falling.. I ask another monk, he said i must note rising/falling... what to do ??

4. walking - during walking, is one to focus all of one's mind on the feet only, what about hearing ?

5. Is practice really so hard ? Must one use effort every single second all day long ? I feel like the mind is very constricted and tight most of the time with so much effort as it is always intensely trying to note something and not much spaciousness in the mind... Every moment of existence is suffering...

6. how to get to stream entry...

7. How to practice daily to improve concentration since mindfulness is not strong and the mind cannot note everything immediately ?

I have been sitting an hour daily for the last 7 years, the past 2 years, i have been sitting 2 hours daily, during sitting while not in retreat, the mind is mostly everywhere since mindfulness is not very strong. For the past 2 years, i have attended 2-3 months retreat in Burma, past A&P last June 2010, hit equanimity December 2010, 2 weeks in equanimity in this retreat but struggling with pain/anger while in equanimity....Hit formlessness twice where there was no body only sound/pain and the noting mind...

Your advise is much appreciated. Thanks so much in advance !
Jin Lin, modified 13 Years ago at 6/28/11 7:32 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/28/11 7:32 PM

RE: Questions upon returning from one month Vipassana Retreat

Posts: 3 Join Date: 5/27/09 Recent Posts
Hi Michelle,

Noting is a mean to an end, if you are not comfortable with noting, you can use other method.

I get the impression that you didn't have personal guidance and just learned it by reading. I belonged to a local zen group when I started my practice and found sitting with a group and a teacher help me in learning the method properly.

If you can't find a group locally you can get personalized instruction online. I recommend Kenneth http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Personalized+Instruction He is a full time teacher and can work with you one-on-one to guide your practice.

Metta
James P, modified 13 Years ago at 6/29/11 10:25 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/29/11 10:24 PM

RE: Questions upon returning from one month Vipassana Retreat

Posts: 5 Join Date: 6/8/11 Recent Posts
I am going to be honest, I think you are simply putting too much will and energy into your practice and I don't mean this in a bad way. It feels to be that you are directing anger to the monks, anger is an emotion that is rooted in something else, you should examine those feeling, those thoughts that give rise to those. To me it feels like you did get into a state of mind where you regard this as hard work, your effort maybe too intense and is preventing you from letting go, this I think is creating anger you direct towards the monks and other yogis. I feel you need to let things go a bit more, not try for such perfection.

Correct me if I have misinterpreted something you wrote, but this is my inference, based on what I interpreted
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 6/30/11 4:57 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/30/11 4:53 AM

RE: Questions upon returning from one month Vipassana Retreat

Posts: 1104 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Michelle Ooi:

1. I noticed that some days the mind is peaceful and quiet and noting is very easy with not much effort involved and practice is a joy. However, the last 3 days of the retreat, I was overwhelmed with intense anger which lasted several days... Noting is impossible during these days as the mind has no patience whatsoever, continuous self destructive thoughts arise all day long, loud yogis will bring unwholesome thoughts.. sights of monks/any yogis will bring unwholesome thoughts... The mind does not want to note any more, it's like i ran out of gas as i practised intensely for the first 24 days ?


You probably fell back from equanimity to an earlier nana.

Michelle:


2. Pain - how does one deal with pain.. The monk's advise is yogi must sit not moving for one hour.. i tried doing this for 3 days while in equanimity, some time sitting in pain for the entire hour but the mind was completely constricted and tense at the end of the hour, albeit mindfulness/concentration was very strong...



Physical discomfort is interesting sometimes, especially to see how quite a lot of it is actually emotional reactivity. Then it becomes a question of solving that emotional reactivity, which is the point of the practice itself. But it is not necessary to push this point too far — if you are straining very hard and not getting anywhere, it's likely too far.

Michelle:

3. Sitting - Is the primary focus of sitting meditation to fucus on rising/falling ? I have difficulty with rising/falling as some days when the anger is intensely strong, the stomach is a knot, i can't feel anything here.. I ask a monk who said, you can note hearing the entire hour, not only rising/falling.. I ask another monk, he said i must note rising/falling... what to do ??

4. walking - during walking, is one to focus all of one's mind on the feet only, what about hearing ?


No. The primary focus of insight meditation is to see your experience clearly. You can begin with the breath in order to do this, and I read that one can use the breath to go all the way to stream entry and beyond, but it is more effective to change to more subtle objects in the later stages of insight (by which I mean this is what I was told, and this is what worked for me).

Michelle:

5. Is practice really so hard ? Must one use effort every single second all day long ? I feel like the mind is very constricted and tight most of the time with so much effort as it is always intensely trying to note something and not much spaciousness in the mind... Every moment of existence is suffering...


No, practice isn't so hard. You only need to use effort to go up to A&P, after that you should drop effort and focus in a different way. If your mind is constricted by the way you get to equanimity, you're doing it wrong.


6. how to get to stream entry...


I conjecture that the reason you didn't get to stream entry on this retreat, is because you're using your focus wrong when you get to equanimity.

When in the equanimity nana, you want to pay attention to the very subtle processes of the mind. Things like intention, expectation, fleeting subtle thoughts, subtle craving and aversion, sensations implying background, silence, peace, space, time... You want your attention to sustain a panoramic all-encompassing effortless clarity. The breath should've been dropped a long time ago (IMO) in exchange for the whole field of experience; if you keep trying to get a tight focus, you'll just fall back to A&P (which could be the reason you're getting strong anger after having attained to equanimity).

When sitting, pay attention to all those subtle processes that are hard to see while walking, doing your very best not to space out. When walking, work on seeing those subtle processes simultaneously with the grosser sensations that happen while walking (e.g. see intention to take the step and how that trickles down to the nerves and the muscles and how these muscles moving feels like), all in a panoramic, see-it-all-at-once, notice-the-three-characteristics way.

Mastering (or at least sufficiently sustaining) such a panoramic all-encompassing clear seeing leads to stream-entry.

Effort until A&P, bliss and focus-on-vibrations-in-the-center-of-attention until Dark Night, acceptance of the discinchronization of the periphery until equanimity, panoramic see-it-all-clearly-at-once-again-and-again until stream-entry. It's a different mode of attention for each stage, actually...
Michelle Ooi, modified 13 Years ago at 7/15/11 2:04 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/15/11 2:04 PM

RE: Questions upon returning from one month Vipassana Retreat

Posts: 3 Join Date: 1/24/11 Recent Posts
Thanks so much for the immensely helpful reply Bruno ! I now understand where my practice went wrong and have a better idea on what to do in future retreats.

Bruno:


When in the equanimity nana, you want to pay attention to the very subtle processes of the mind. Things like intention, expectation, fleeting subtle thoughts, subtle craving and aversion, sensations implying background, silence, peace, space, time... You want your attention to sustain a panoramic all-encompassing effortless clarity. The breath should've been dropped a long time ago (IMO) in exchange for the whole field of experience; if you keep trying to get a tight focus, you'll just fall back to A&P (which could be the reason you're getting strong anger after having attained to equanimity).



You nailed this one. Yes, I was doing well until the recommendation to focus on rising/falling and all the anger/aversions and impatience appeared and the practice just went downhill from there...


Bruno:

When sitting, pay attention to all those subtle processes that are hard to see while walking, doing your very best not to space out. When walking, work on seeing those subtle processes simultaneously with the grosser sensations that happen while walking (e.g. see intention to take the step and how that trickles down to the nerves and the muscles and how these muscles moving feels like), all in a panoramic, see-it-all-at-once, notice-the-three-characteristics way.

Mastering (or at least sufficiently sustaining) such a panoramic all-encompassing clear seeing leads to stream-entry.

Effort until A&P, bliss and focus-on-vibrations-in-the-center-of-attention until Dark Night, acceptance of the discinchronization of the periphery until equanimity, panoramic see-it-all-clearly-at-once-again-and-again until stream-entry. It's a different mode of attention for each stage, actually...


Does "panoramic see-it-all-clearly-at-once-again-and-again" mean that both the foreground and background should be included in the field of attention ?

For daily practice, does one continue to do vipassana practice despite the tendency of the mind to wander ? will doing concentration practice help at this point or continue with vipassana ?
upa saka, modified 13 Years ago at 7/15/11 7:14 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/15/11 7:14 PM

RE: Questions upon returning from one month Vipassana Retreat

Posts: 16 Join Date: 11/14/10 Recent Posts
Hey Michelle , since you just came back from the retreat there is probably a lot of momentum to your practice, which with some skillful guidance may get you over the hump to high equanimity. I would like to second the suggestion you contact kenneth and do some noting sessions with him.

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