Uncharted Territory

Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 8:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 8:58 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 9:54 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 10:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 10:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Stirling Campbell 4/5/20 11:11 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory A. Dietrich Ringle 5/12/20 10:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/27/20 11:40 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 11:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 11:19 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 1:20 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 3:22 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 4:57 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 10:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/5/20 5:31 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 4:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 6:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 7:35 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 12:31 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 2:43 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 3:01 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/16/20 9:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/16/20 1:47 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/17/20 8:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/17/20 9:54 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 10:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/17/20 11:21 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/17/20 11:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/17/20 11:49 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/17/20 12:23 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 3:56 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 5/29/20 4:32 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 4:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 5/29/20 5:11 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 5:23 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 5/29/20 6:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 6:04 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/29/20 6:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 5/29/20 7:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/30/20 3:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/16/20 10:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/16/20 2:40 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/16/20 3:07 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/17/20 12:09 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/24/20 3:51 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/25/20 6:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/26/20 2:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/25/20 7:50 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/25/20 8:49 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/27/20 11:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/27/20 11:47 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/27/20 11:48 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/27/20 12:01 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 12:32 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/27/20 12:42 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:08 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:39 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 12:12 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/27/20 12:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 12:52 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/28/20 9:27 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/28/20 9:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 2:26 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/27/20 12:26 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:18 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/27/20 1:35 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:48 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/27/20 1:57 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 2:09 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 6/27/20 2:16 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 2:49 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 3:33 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 4:50 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/27/20 3:41 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 5:02 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:00 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:13 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/27/20 6:12 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:17 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/28/20 3:34 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/28/20 4:42 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 12:25 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 9:37 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 12:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 12:35 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 1:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 1:24 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 1:51 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/29/20 2:09 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 6:17 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/30/20 7:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 8:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 6/30/20 8:43 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 9:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/30/20 12:09 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 12:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 8/15/20 11:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/15/20 11:29 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 8/16/20 9:14 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 8/16/20 10:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 2:52 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 6:38 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/30/20 7:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 8:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 5:01 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 5:46 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 6:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 7:01 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/27/20 11:25 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 4:54 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 5/29/20 2:35 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory shargrol 5/29/20 5:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 8:10 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 3:18 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 3:22 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 4:25 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 4:44 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 6:14 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 11:43 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Milo 4/6/20 12:43 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 9:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 9:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 10:10 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:24 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 10:26 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 10:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 11:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 11:08 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 11:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 11:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 11:33 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 12:56 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 1:03 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/5/20 1:07 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 12:55 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Noah D 4/5/20 1:48 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 2:20 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 2:43 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/5/20 5:44 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 10:16 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 2:33 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 6:19 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 8:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 8:09 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 8:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 8:19 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:48 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 9:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 9:14 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 6:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 6:27 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 7:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 11:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 11:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 11:55 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Lewis James 4/6/20 12:34 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 1:54 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 12:42 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 5:47 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 5:53 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 7:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 7:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 7:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/6/20 2:10 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/16/20 2:41 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 9:26 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 6:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/6/20 2:13 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 4:41 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 4/6/20 3:08 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 3:32 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 4/9/20 2:36 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/9/20 3:13 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/9/20 3:24 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 4/9/20 4:00 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/10/20 7:39 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/12/20 3:27 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/12/20 10:25 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/13/20 4:30 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/14/20 6:04 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 4:14 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 5:23 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 6:04 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 2:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/7/20 2:58 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 5:30 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/6/20 6:53 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 2:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/7/20 5:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 6:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/7/20 6:11 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/7/20 6:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 10:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/8/20 6:59 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/8/20 8:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/7/20 1:29 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/8/20 8:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 4/10/20 8:28 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/11/20 4:36 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/12/20 7:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/14/20 5:54 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/16/20 12:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/12/20 11:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/12/20 11:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/12/20 2:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/14/20 6:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/14/20 11:36 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 6:41 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 7:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 7:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 7:55 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/15/20 7:59 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 8:12 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/15/20 8:15 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 9:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 9:10 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 9:43 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 9:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 9:50 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 9:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 10:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 10:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:18 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 10:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:37 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 10:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 11:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 10:45 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:50 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 10:28 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/15/20 11:08 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 11:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/15/20 11:22 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 2:31 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/16/20 3:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/16/20 9:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 5:37 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/17/20 8:19 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 9:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/17/20 9:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/17/20 10:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/17/20 10:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 10:35 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 5/17/20 9:14 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 9:15 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 5/17/20 9:43 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/16/20 3:01 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 12:18 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 11:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 5/15/20 10:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/12/20 3:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/27/20 3:45 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory shargrol 6/29/20 1:04 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory spatial 4/7/20 9:52 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 4/8/20 6:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory spatial 4/8/20 9:04 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/8/20 8:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 8/21/20 10:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 8/21/20 4:38 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris M 8/21/20 6:20 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/27/20 11:22 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/28/20 2:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 8/28/20 9:21 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 8/28/20 9:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier S 8/28/20 9:18 AM
Thread Split Chris M 1/21/21 12:32 PM
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 8:52 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 8:52 AM

Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
To start this topic, I'll paraphrase my friend Vincent Horn: "This is what we practice for."

Am I right?
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 8:58 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 8:56 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 9:40 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 9:40 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
To start this topic, I'll paraphrase my friend Vincent Horn: "This is what we practice for."

Am I right?


Yes. It's like a dissolving of a lot of what has been taken as simple unquestioned ground, for a lot of the world. Every step, or quarantined non-step, is a whole new thing now for the vast majority of people, with or without any practice in essential groundlessness. 
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 9:44 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 9:44 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
This situation is also what I like to think of as a universal bullshit detector. The formal version of this goes something like, "Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it."
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 9:54 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 9:54 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

I'm concerned that you may be suicidal, Chris, considering death an alternative. Death is just not an alternative, and i speak as one who has at various points tried to avoid rebirth like the plague. Maybe you've got the chops to pull it off, but still, you're probably just going to be reborn in some damn Pure Land bardo anyway, at this point, with some damn Buddha type teaching you all over again to watch your breath. I don't see an alternative to "bring it on," either, here in these bodies.

Well, maybe running away screaming. But then people give me shit for being out in public during a pandemic, spreading germs and panic. So yeah, seriously, thinking it all the way through, no alternative but to shelter in place. This is why we practice, it's game time. Bring it on. It's already done wonders for agnostic, in my humble opinion. The monkeys may end up with a warlord or something, in the short term, but as long as it's a drunken warlord with his eye on the dot, who stays fat and happy, that's probably for the best too.
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:02 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:02 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I've experienced war so to me all this "new (covid) territory" not new at all but yes we indeed practice for This-ness as there is nothing outside of This no matter pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.

Also, being Master of This does not fool Anicca out of throwing this human creature into old age, sickness and death. As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it "we have already lost no matter what" or "aaah, emoticon Im gonna die emoticon

So hurry up people and wake up to THIS as indeed there is NOTHING outside of THIS. Fire up that practice and stop "sleeping" in some blissful realm emoticon emoticon emoticon
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:06 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:04 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Dear Tim,

Thank you for your concern! I am not, nor will I be, considering suicide. It's just not my thing. I was thinking in terms of probabilities and Boolean logic, and then I typed the offending sentence. I'm sorry. I'll work harder to communicate with more concern for everyone's possible reaction to my words.

Yours in solidarity,

CM
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:10 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:10 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it...

Kenneth does have a way with words, doesn't he?

thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:24 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:24 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it...

Kenneth does have a way with words, doesn't he?

he certainly knows how to crush those romantic notions we might have about awakeing and all other dogmatic buddhist ideas emoticon The lad has some serious talent emoticon I love him for his rawness and right-in-your-face-ness.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:26 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:26 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
The lad has some serious talent emoticon

And you, sir, have a serious smiley addiction.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:36 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:35 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
I've experienced war so to me all this "new (covid) territory" not new at all but yes we indeed practice for This-ness as there is nothing outside of This no matter pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.

Also, being Master of This does not fool Anicca out of throwing this human creature into old age, sickness and death. As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it "we have already lost no matter what" or "aaah, emoticon Im gonna die emoticon

So hurry up people and wake up to THIS as indeed there is NOTHING outside of THIS. Fire up that practice and stop "sleeping" in some blissful realm emoticonemoticonemoticon

This is a kind of war-conditions for the masses thing. Death is on the table, up front and obvious for everyone, and bullshit in that heightened light is way obvious.

But Papa Che, you have made me realize that this whole Buddhism thing is a bait-and-switch. I mean, thank you, but damn. The story goes that Prince Siddhartha left his protected palace and on the road encountered, for the first time, a sick person, and aged person, and a corpse, and then a sanyasin, who inspired him onto his path. But now . . . well . . . sickness, and old age, and death, oh my. The 8-fold yellow brick road doesn't change any of the things that got Gautama going in the first place? Why was I not told this earlier? Have you mentioned this to anyone else?
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:38 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:38 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
The lad has some serious talent emoticon

And you, sir, have a serious smiley addiction.
emoticonemoticonemoticonemoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:44 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:44 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Dear Tim,

Thank you for your concern! I am not, nor will I be, considering suicide. It's just not my thing. I was thinking in terms of probabilities and Boolean logic, and then I typed the offending sentence. I'm sorry. I'll work harder to communicate with more concern for everyone's possible reaction to my words.

Yours in solidarity,

CM
Well, see, there you go, it was just a language thing. In Boolean logic, death is a 0, so if I'd recognized your angle I wouldn't have given it a moment's thought, no value change, no problem. I was misreading you anyway, thinking you were treating death as a 1, so forgive me for that. And thank you for the reassurance, in any case.

yours in these uncharted waters,
tf
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:53 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:53 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
[quote=
]

"But Papa Che, you have made me realize that this whole Buddhism thing is a bait-and-switch. I mean, thank you, but damn. The story goes that Prince Siddhartha left his protected palace and on the road encountered, for the first time, a sick person, and aged person, and a corpse, and then a sanyasin, who inspired him onto his path. But now . . . well . . . sickness, and old age, and death, oh my. The 8-fold yellow brick road doesn't change any of the things that got Gautama going in the first place? Why was I not told this earlier? Have you mentioned this to anyone else?"



Ehm, emoticon maybe THAT is why Mr.Buddha was so keen on teaching the VERY END of suffering = Pari-Nibbana emoticon  all the yellow brick path maybe only Interventions during the conscious hours? 

emoticon (I think Chris wants me to stop using smileys damn it)
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:03 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:03 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
[quote=
]

"But Papa Che, you have made me realize that this whole Buddhism thing is a bait-and-switch. I mean, thank you, but damn. The story goes that Prince Siddhartha left his protected palace and on the road encountered, for the first time, a sick person, and aged person, and a corpse, and then a sanyasin, who inspired him onto his path. But now . . . well . . . sickness, and old age, and death, oh my. The 8-fold yellow brick road doesn't change any of the things that got Gautama going in the first place? Why was I not told this earlier? Have you mentioned this to anyone else?"



Ehm, emoticon maybe THAT is why Mr.Buddha was so keen on teaching the VERY END of suffering = Pari-Nibbana emoticon  all the yellow brick path maybe only Interventions during the conscious hours? 

emoticon (I think Chris wants me to stop using smileys damn it)
(fuck Chris, he has no sense of humor whatsoever, which is why you HAVE to use smileys with him. It's a question of skillful means for you, like the Buddha using a different idiom with the Brahmins.)
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:08 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:08 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
... fuck Chris...

Honestly, there's just no desire on my part to get any closer to Che than I have to, at least until social distancing and government quarantine orders are lifted.
thumbnail
Stirling Campbell, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:11 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:11 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 605 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:

What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

Really, this is how things always are, though there is now a more compelling narrative. The human story includes death, and it can happen at any time. In the middle of this there could be some other disaster that puts to shame the wake of this virus. Who knows? Always practice like your life depends on it. In some ways it does. The opportunity for compassion is omnipresent and boundless. All resistance to how things are is an opportunity for inquiry. In my experience, the dharmakaya points back at it its own impermanence/unity all of the time, in every facet, in every moment. I'm ready to show up for whatever that is. 

I'm with you: Bring it on.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:13 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:13 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
... fuck Chris...

Honestly, there's just no desire on my part to get any closer to Che than I have to, at least until social distancing and government quarantine orders are lifted.


Well, I'm as close to Papa Che as I can stand too, as far as that goes. The fucker just destroyed my faith in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the sangha, and followed it up with a smiley.
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:16 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:16 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

I'm watching the supply chains. Particular for the health system, distribution of the agricultural surplus, and heating. And whether means of exchange continue to work.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:16 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:16 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Uh, that's Mr. Buddha to you, pal.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:19 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:19 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I'm watching the supply chains. Particular for the health system, distribution of the agricultural surplus, and heating.

Yeah, great point, if I can be serious for a minute. Those do bear watching. Believe it or not, that's a big part of what I for a living, for one particular commodity industry and its end markets. 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:33 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 11:33 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Uh, that's Mr. Buddha to you, pal.


Mea culpa. I certainly did not mean to seem disrespectful to Mr. Buddha by saying that I got sucked into that bait-and-switch of his so bad, until Papa Che set me free. [smiley face]
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 12:55 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 12:55 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
... fuck Chris...

Honestly, there's just no desire on my part to get any closer to Che than I have to, at least until social distancing and government quarantine orders are lifted.


Well, I'm as close to Papa Che as I can stand too, as far as that goes. The fucker just destroyed my faith in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the sangha, and followed it up with a smiley.

Shoit man, you got me there! I had an impression that Faith was SOLID as a rock totally not subject to Anicca! 

(no smileys this time ... but this could change) 
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 12:56 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 12:56 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Behold! It's Mr. Buddha:



Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:03 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:03 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Behold! It's Mr. Buddha:



Okay, I can take refuge in that, even after Papa Che DESTROYED my FAITH again, and without even the compassion of a smiley.

Plus, I like what Mr. B is doing with the red/yellow thing, just enough Santa Claus to balance the Dalai Lama kind of thing, very with it. You'll sell a million of these. My $29.95 is in the mail.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:07 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:07 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
And, and, and, you can cuddle Mr. Buddha up to your face while you sleep! Talk about reducing dukkha!
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:20 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:20 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.
thumbnail
Noah D, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:48 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 1:48 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1181 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Turns out the 4 noble truths are more than just a psychological exercise, but an actual description of the fact that reality (the conventional world we live in) is samsara.  
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 2:20 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 2:20 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Noah D:
Turns out the 4 noble truths are more than just a psychological exercise, but an actual description of the fact that reality (the conventional world we live in) is samsara.  

Hm ... lemme see ...

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"  or
"If a stock market collapses and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"


(still no smileys ... damn it)
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 2:43 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 2:43 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Noah D:
Turns out the 4 noble truths are more than just a psychological exercise, but an actual description of the fact that reality (the conventional world we live in) is samsara.  

Hm ... lemme see ...

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"  or
"If a stock market collapses and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"


(still no smileys ... damn it)

Well - on the tree - it never made a sound anway.  We made the soud emoticon
And on the stock market - sure the howling and whining for bailouts echoes right around the world! emoticon
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 3:22 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 3:18 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.

Yeah, it's worse than that, I think. This is the death of financial markets capitalism.  20% to 30% is just the first wave. After that their suppliers go bust, and their suppliers. And of course the negative demand effect from unemployment will be huge.  Everthing is so interconnected and overleveraged now, compared to he 1930s, it's a real worry.  And having multi-trillion dollar bailouts every ten years is not sustainable. I see three principal scenarios for how this ends.

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 

2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

3. Socialism - Something like providing everyone with a universal basic income, recovering the looted simulus money through wealth taxes, having mixed public/private sector model, and move as much as possible to online business and automation. Basically we have to totally rebalance our banking and productive sectors, and truly ride the technological change to a new type of society, instead of being stuck in the past. Markets can't do this on their own - it needs heavy state intervention to support it.

Whatever happens, the economy of 'things' is dead. The only thing that will keep us going is realising we never needed all that crap we bought, and we can live simply and cheaply and have a really high standard of life after all. All we need is the four requisites (plus energy and sewerage), and a smartphone and a big flatscreen. Simplicity in the home, complexity in the servers. Restraint in private spaces, luxury in public spaces. 

So we may have to find different ways to use the agricultural and manufacturing surplus. Instead of employing people to build malls, sell barbie dolls, advertise fast food, and promote ocean cruises, we may need to employ them to build online games, create virtual environments, offer online grief counselling, drive delivery drones, grow organic food in cities, repair the environment, create public art and so on.  We need a massive realignment if we are to avoid a fairly destructive feudalism.

Ahh... rant over ... I feel better already!  

As you say, these are the times we practice for.  It's much easier if we are not clinging to weird mind-made objects.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 4:57 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 4:57 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
This is the death of financial markets capitalism.

I suspect it's not. Financial markets can serve people, not the other way around. If we regulate markets fairly, and properly, there is economic good to come from that. The problem we've had over the past several decades is that financial markets have become playgrounds for speculators and manipulators, not for the average person, or for main street, which is comprised of real economy businesses (manufacturers, for example) that need investment services, liquidity, and more efficient asset allocation.

Personally, I would like to see a major reorientation of the avaricious, modern American capitalism that is predatory and serves those who already have, not those who need and have not. A real and deep recognition that we're all in this society together would be nice, but if that's not possible because some people can't figure it out, then regulation with teeth, real, sharp teeth, is the way to go.
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 5:31 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 5:31 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Wow, I didn't think I would actually live to see financial market capitalism fall. I just hope that it won't be too painful for those who are already in great need before a new system is put in place. I won't miss the capitalism per se. I will certainly not miss the religion of the Holy Market That Fixes Everything With Its Divine Hand.
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 5:44 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 5:44 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
By the way, this is the sort of discussion I had in mind when I started a thread a while back about practice implications for a better society. When I said that it was what the practice was for, I was heavily criticized. 
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:15 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:15 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Yes I don't think financial markets will disappear - I agree they perform a very useful function.  But they will have to be severly tamed to prevent this ongoing exposure to overleveraging, which seems baked in to the business model at the moment. Regulations don't seem to have done the trick; too easy to capture the regulators.  Also, I think central banks will need to move to providing stimulus through UBI-type payments, not just bank bailouts, as the bailouts clearly encourage more of the same overleveraging.  Anyway, not really a dharma conversation ....   
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:16 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/5/20 10:16 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
By the way, this is the sort of discussion I had in mind when I started a thread a while back about practice implications for a better society. When I said that it was what the practice was for, I was heavily criticized. 
So what advice would 'you' now give 'you' then?  emoticon
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 2:33 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 2:33 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Well, it's a little late, but maybe the world will be more willing now, for the future. I think we need to prioritize more how resources are utilized. We need to consume less unnecessary material stuff and focus on making sure that people have their basic needs met. There need to be more resources on health care and different kinds of support for those who are in need. We need to have systems that are less vulnerable, that work even in a time of crisis, even if it isn't the cheepest short-term solution. We need to obsess less with "me" and "mine" and see that we are all connected. We need to produce food more locally and use the resources of the earth in a more sustainable way. We can't just take it for granted to have our exotic tastes catered for within the blink of an eye. We need to make sure that people around the world have the resources for a healthy life style with basic hygiene, food and health care, even if this means that we in the west can no longer afford all the material stuff that we have learned to think that we need. We don't actually need all that stuff, and we need to see that our cravings only cause suffering. We need to be less dependent on energy sources that are limited and that exploit the earth and that are dependent on deliveries. We need to have a sustainable infra structure. Stuff like that. 

Thanks for meeting my childish "told ya so" comment in a constructive way. It did hurt to be bashed at for wanting to be proactive for the sake of everyone's wellbeing, and that ego still dwells somewhere, craving to be accepted, but it was still not the most skillful comment. And sometimes being right sucks. 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 4:51 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 4:50 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Another thing maybe none of us quite expected to live to see so vividly is something on the scale of the influenza pandemic of 1918-1919, which killed more people in its couple years than died in WWI. The timing was interesting for me, because I had just finished reading David Quammen's book "Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Pandemic," which I highly recommend for the larger ecological/evolutionary context of these interesting times we live in. Quammen is a "nature writer" who has never written a non-interesting piece; he goes to the heart of what he's interested in, quite literally, talks to all the right people in depth, gets the big picture as clearly as anyone, and writes with exquisite lucidity, and even a genuine thread of humor. (His "Song of the Dodo," for instance, is the funniest book you will ever read about the current wave of human-related mass extinctions.) He understands not just the ecology and evolution, but also people, and the process of science, and politics.

I have started in on John Barry's classic, state-of-the-art study of the 1918 pandemic, "The Great Influenza." Barry starts with a protracted consideration of the history of infectious disease research in the U.S., and uses the Johns Hopkins labs beginning in the 1880s in particular as sort of a long on-ramp to the main story. I'm still on the on-ramp, but one interesting tidbit so far is that the pandemic is often called "the Spanish flu," which is basically a politically-conditioned artefact of history and politics: Spain was a prominent country not fighting in WWI at that time, and so had a freer press without wartime censorship, and so the news literally came out from there. But the disease itself almost certainly had its origins elsewhere, and possibly even in the U.S. The dance of protracted govermental denials, distortions, and finger-pointing is nauseatingly familiar.
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:34 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:06 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
A more strategic advice from "me" to "me" would maybe be to shut up until you have made yourself a name AND shit happens that illustrate the vulnerability of the economy even for people who are normally protected, and then blurt it out in a laconic way to the right people when it's already obvious. I wouldn't have listened, though, because people were already dying from system failures that could have been prevented, and I just think that is so very unnecessary. 

So I think a key component in navigating the world together on this planet would have to involve better ways of communication that enable people to talk about the sensitive stuff. I don't know how this could be accomplished. Somehow we need to see that we are all in this together, just like Chris said now, and like I said before. As long as people divide themselves and compete for resources, there will always be a lack of resources for some. When it comes to a pandemic, it becomes very obvious how vulnerable that is. And yet, as long as some people take advantage of systems, trusting a system can be risky business. Thus we need to build trust to the extent that nobody ses the need to exploit, and still maintain transparency so that power cannot be exploited. That's a very long-term project. Also, it will cost. Luxury comsumption cannot be part of it, at least not to the extent that people have gotten used to. Advertisement that makes people think that they need all that unnecessary stuff cannot be prioritized. The resources spent on boosting people's cravings for stuff and for travelling all over the world can be put to better use. Basic needs need to be prioritized, and the stuff that actually makes people happy, for real. But this won't work by force, at least not in the long term. Authoritarian governing is no solution. 
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:16 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:16 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
 David Quammen's book "Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Pandemic,"

Second! I read this book about a year ago.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:19 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:19 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
And sometimes being right sucks. 

Holy crap... you were right?   emoticon
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:38 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:23 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
 We need to consume less unnecessary material stuff and focus on making sure that people have their basic needs met. There need to be more resources on health care and different kinds of support for those who are in need. 

This is in the right direction, I think. I would agree on universal basic income. I would agree on universally available, publicly funded healthcare and, to reign things in on the excess income/excess consumption vector, to fund both of those I would establish a sort of  "maximum" annual income, above which folks are taxed at a rate commensurate with what the U.S. had during the 1950s - around 90%, or more.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:27 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:27 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?
T, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:07 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:07 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 279 Join Date: 1/15/19 Recent Posts
Yes!!!



I meditate instead of watching the news.
I read references to the suttas in the hope I can figure out what the fuck is going on with the mind instead of watching the news. 


I then read the news and am far less affected by fear mongering, misinformation, far-too-hastily created hot takes, and all that jazz.
I watch the death toll rise and am in a much more balanced place to be circumspect about the whole affair. 

So meditation has been very helpful for me. 

I only wish it were more clear what on Earth I'm investigating in the first place while I sit there. emoticon
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:07 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:07 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Seeing, hearing, tightness, anticipation, hearing, touching, hardness, comprehending, imagining, hearing, anticipation, seeing, hearing, coolness, touching, movement, expanding, wetness, swallowing, seeing, hearing, stiffness, unpleasant, hearing ... 
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:35 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:35 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Curious:

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 

2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

Yeah, I'm concerned about these two possible outcomes. Of the two I worry most about Feudalism, or as I would describe a parallel outcome - Totalitarianism. I see a leaning in that direction in the U.S., with a denial of expertise and the slow but steadily increasing acceptance, by surprisingly many, of a personality cult.

Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:46 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:46 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?

At the risk of provoking an endless confusion of translations across various tradions: acceptance, and patience.

P.S. Americans practice, to raze the illusion of a self at the center; the British practise, to rase the illusion of a self at the centre. This sectarian conflict is a needless tragedy.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:53 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 7:53 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Provocateur!
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:00 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:00 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
And sometimes being right sucks. 

Holy crap... you were right?   emoticon

Well, yeah. I said that the dangerous thing was not talking about how our cravings cause harm on a society level, when short-term profit gets to be more important than basic needs for people. But who was right is not important. Minimizing harm in this time of crisis is.
T, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:02 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:02 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 279 Join Date: 1/15/19 Recent Posts
...but you were right. emoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:09 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:09 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Plus, given my recent experiments in pidgin Advaita, I think we can say also that she WAS NEVER WRONG!
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:13 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:13 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Yoda Advaita:

I, there is
Inquire, you must!
Know, you will
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:19 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:19 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Yoda Advaita:

I, there is
Inquire, you must!
Know, you will

shit, it's not even pidgin Advaita I've been trying to speak! It's something in which Yoda Advaita translates to:

is-ing
inquiring must-iferously!
knowing already-ing
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:46 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:46 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?


For me it has been helpful in many ways. I haven't had much reactive behavior with regard to this crisis. Instead of drowning in media speculations, I have focused on very few trustworthy channels that post confirmed information. I have been comfortable with not knowing. I have listened and waited instead of making comments on social media that I would later live to regret because they hurt someone. I have listened to and supported people who worry without getting wired up myself (with an exception in the beginning when I raised my voice for relational reasons that I then saw through, thankfully). I have been careful without panicking. I have taken time to practice when other things were cancelled. I have made new friends online with meditation practicioners who have also taken the time to practice. My practice has had a boost, so although I feel for those who are ill or at risk, I'm also happy. I don't know if I'll still have a job from July 1st, but I know I'm not alone in that. I don't know what the future will bring, and I accept that. I don't know when I'll get to see my partners, as they live in towns that we are advised not travelling to or from, and I'm okay with that. Well, I'm not liking it, but the bigger picture requires caution, and there's nothing I can do about that, and I have my practice. I connect with other practicioners all over the world. I prioritize things that matter (to the extent that my poor executive function and other disability-related stuff doesn't get in the way). I have helped some people close to me not to rush into doing things that they would later regret (such as visiting old relatives while having a cold) because they were reacting and couldn't think straight (and their older relative really wanted to have their laundry done that specific day and were guilttripping them). None of this is thanks to me. It is thanks to the practice. 

However, so far nobody close to me has been severely affected by the virus, so I realize that I'm privileged in that regard. I don't know if the practice would be any help if something like that would happen. Also, being autistic makes social isolation easier, I guess, so if it weren't for that, maybe I would be panicking.

I'm still trying to figure out how I can be of help without that turning into a risk factor for others. I would like to be more useful, in a way that really does help, not just looks like it does.
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:48 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:48 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Plus, given my recent experiments in pidgin Advaita, I think we can say also that she WAS NEVER WRONG!

Nah, that's just faulty logic. Ugh. I still have reactive patterns with regard to poor logic. emoticon
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:53 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 8:53 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Hell yeah. emoticon

And I'm not liking the reactive pattern that wishes to emphasize that. Because it really isn't important, and I'm fully aware that it is annoying as fuck. 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 9:03 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 9:02 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Tim Farrington:
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Plus, given my recent experiments in pidgin Advaita, I think we can say also that she WAS NEVER WRONG!

Nah, that's just faulty logic. Ugh. I still have reactive patterns with regard to poor logic. emoticon

No, keep me honest, please, scrupulously, with regard to poor logic. And forgive my faulty logic here, I didn't mean to be annoying as fuck (what a treasure of a dharma technical term that is, thank you). What I was going for was relatively complete nonsense.
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 9:14 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 9:14 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Haha, so you have those reactive patterns too? Sure, we can call them honesty instead. Deal. emoticon
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 9:26 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 9:26 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
 We need to consume less unnecessary material stuff and focus on making sure that people have their basic needs met. There need to be more resources on health care and different kinds of support for those who are in need. 

This is in the right direction, I think. I would agree on universal basic income. I would agree on universally available, publicly funded healthcare and, to reign things in on the excess income/excess consumption vector, to fund both of those I would establish a sort of  "maximum" annual income, above which folks are taxed at a rate commensurate with what the U.S. had during the 1950s - around 90%, or more.

I think we're on the same page here. 
T, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 11:03 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 11:03 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 279 Join Date: 1/15/19 Recent Posts
aaaaaaah.... emoticon

https://youtu.be/AJjaQJTBTGU 
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 11:20 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 11:20 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
T, I don't have a lot of time today - what's the gist of the video you posted?
T, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 11:55 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 11:55 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 279 Join Date: 1/15/19 Recent Posts
anonymous member pointing out that the virus was adapted by a scientist in NC, who was there on a grant/fellowship of some kind, originally from Wuhan, China. 

Basically says that gov't research led to this - possibly intentionally. 
thumbnail
Lewis James, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 12:34 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 12:34 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 155 Join Date: 5/13/15 Recent Posts
I admit I hastily watched the video on 2x speed, but isn't his argument essentially "researchers including some from Wuhan have been working on mutating coronaviruses to study their effects, therefore this coronavirus outbreak must be a man made disease?"

Didn't independent teams of scientists already sequence this thing and find the related mutations in some animal species, strongly suggesting it was a natural cause? Due to certain inefficiences in the virus and sequences that are redundant but found in animal species found in Wuhan.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 12:42 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 12:42 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
T:
anonymous member pointing out that the virus was adapted by a scientist in NC, who was there on a grant/fellowship of some kind, originally from Wuhan, China. 

Basically says that gov't research led to this - possibly intentionally. 


And I thought it was CIA funding the research in Wuhan to make it look like China did it. Get out of here! 

I trust China as much as I trust US or Russia but please stop feeding this forum with such crap! Back to practice!


(most certainly no smileys this time) 
thumbnail
Milo, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 12:43 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 12:43 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 371 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

Seems like in a lot of cases it's a sudden acceleration of existing trends. C-Virus just gave things a shove and moved the schedule up a decade.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 1:54 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 1:54 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Didn't independent teams of scientists already sequence this thing and find the related mutations in some animal species, strongly suggesting it was a natural cause? Due to certain inefficiences in the virus and sequences that are redundant but found in animal species found in Wuhan.

Why, yes. Indeed they did. I read that same Nature article recently:

The genomic features described here may explain in part the infectiousness and transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. Although the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here. However, since we observed all notable SARS-CoV-2 features, including the optimized RBD and polybasic cleavage site, in related coronaviruses in nature, we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible.
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 2:10 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 2:10 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?

Angst does not arise. Worry does not stick. Compassion and happiness predominate. 

Of course, that could just be because I'm getting more sleep in lockdown. Or because I'm getting Tummo going a bit better in the mornings.  
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 2:13 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 2:13 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
A more strategic advice from "me" to "me" would maybe be to shut up until you have made yourself a name AND shit happens that illustrate the vulnerability of the economy even for people who are normally protected, and then blurt it out in a laconic way to the right people when it's already obvious. I wouldn't have listened, though, because people were already dying from system failures that could have been prevented, and I just think that is so very unnecessary. 

So I think a key component in navigating the world together on this planet would have to involve better ways of communication that enable people to talk about the sensitive stuff. I don't know how this could be accomplished. Somehow we need to see that we are all in this together, just like Chris said now, and like I said before. As long as people divide themselves and compete for resources, there will always be a lack of resources for some. When it comes to a pandemic, it becomes very obvious how vulnerable that is. And yet, as long as some people take advantage of systems, trusting a system can be risky business. Thus we need to build trust to the extent that nobody ses the need to exploit, and still maintain transparency so that power cannot be exploited. That's a very long-term project. Also, it will cost. Luxury comsumption cannot be part of it, at least not to the extent that people have gotten used to. Advertisement that makes people think that they need all that unnecessary stuff cannot be prioritized. The resources spent on boosting people's cravings for stuff and for travelling all over the world can be put to better use. Basic needs need to be prioritized, and the stuff that actually makes people happy, for real. But this won't work by force, at least not in the long term. Authoritarian governing is no solution. 
Morality is the first training, and morality is the last training. The way I think about about it, first time around it is more about personal action and calm, so you are not twisting yourself up and preventing progress. Second time around, it is more about recognising interconnection and compassion, and skilfully contributing for the benefit of all beings (the whole field of perception together with connected causes and conditions). Maybe you were just too early?

Malcolm
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 3:08 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 2:48 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
To start this topic, I'll paraphrase my friend Vincent Horn: "This is what we practice for."

Am I right?
Indeed !

I want to share my perspective. (Not adressing you in particular Chris, but any good soul who might read this ;) )

For me, there has been almost no surprise or shock or grief about this situation, because I have been doing enough reading up on the potential for collapse of global society to know that it's not a question of if anymore, but of how and when.

It seems to me that the coronavirus crisis is a very small event compared to what I've come to accept is gonna happen, has been happening, and is in fact happening everywhere around the world right this minute. Every five minutes a child dies of hunger somewhere, right ? Most of the world is already in a state of collapse. Like someone whose name I forgot said : "Collpase means living like the people who grow your coffee."

The coronavirus thing has basically made no change to how I live, because I've moved to a small village where nothing is happening, and my life consists mostly of : meditating, reading, writing, thinking, composing, etc. I'm basically living extremely simply, and preparing myself for a very different world, where different skills will be recquired. 

I don't have a job because I have little desire to integrate a system which is so utterly destructive, and because I know it is already starting to break down. Well, I am indeed pursuing things like a PhD, trying to be a composer, writing books... and have in no way given up on a "conventional" career - but it's just one of the options I'm imagining for my life, one small part of it. I'm working on my needs, living on extremely little, trying to cut myself off from industrial products, firstly because they are usually of bad quality, and secondly, because they are soon gonna be much less widely available. I don't own a car, never have, never will. I've decided to never again fly in a plane if I can possibly avoid it. I'm learning about how to grow things, because that's gonna be an essential need in the times to come, and like malcolm says : you don't need much, if every family has a 250 m² garden, we are good.

In russia, most people have kept this kind of thing, most people, even in big cities, still own a 6-acre garden accessible through public transportation or by walking (cities were designed this way intentionnally). Thanks to that, they have avoided food crises when the USSR collapsed (30 years ago, may I remind you). The international community, seeing the collapse of the union, prepared a bunch of food help, but it was not needed.

Interestingly, usually when I talk about this on forums, nobody answers. I wonder if it's because people are in denial, or if they don't have enough information, or if it's because it seems preposterous to many who are "in the system" and have built their lives and careers around a certain way of functioning, or unabile/unwilling to digest this, or what. Anyways : I see in many people a kind of realization these days that "shit, this system is fragile".

Well... There is a huge big mass of information and hard to refute demonstrations about the unsustainability of just about everything in our lives right now, it's out there waiting for you... emoticonemoticonemoticon

I'm not trying to sound scary, there is no need to freak out in my opinion, but it's important to realize that things are gonna change enormously, probably sooner than later. Very probably, will will all experience that during our lifetimes. It's important to come to terms with that, to accept it however painful it may be, to be able to take the right steps so that it happens in the most positive way possible... In fact it's our responsibility. 

I now view this whole mess as something extremely positive, personally. I've never wanted to live the way that developed countries have since the 30 glorious years. And now I truly understand why ^^ I understand what was wrong, why I and so many young persons I know have such great difficulties integrating this crazy society. I now fully recognize and understand that the problem is not on our side. Quite the opposite... 

I've always felt this, many people I know have always felt this without being able to fully grasp it. I'm of a generation (currently 26 years-old) who has been told since they were children that urgent action was needed to tackle extremely dangerous climate change before it is too late, and who has grown up witnessing the fact that nothing at all was made to even try to slow the increase (!) in the toxicity of our lifestyles. In fact, I now take it as my duty to find a way of living which is as disconnected as possible from (1) technologies, (2) overconsumption, (3) industry.

The generation after me, obviously, has experienced this much more full-on, and thankfully they are proving to be wiser than the rest... Or perhaps it's just that their unease is so strong that they can't do anything other than act. It's very inspiring and extremely pathetic at the same time, I find.

My meditation practice is fundamental in several respects in my relation with all this. I don't make a disconnect, actually... I don't think there is anything much more ecological than dissipating the boundaries between self and world, right ? After all, eco-, oikos, means "surroundings", "milieu".... But then again, surprisingly, it doesn't necesarily seem that awakening and a sense of sacredness-connectedness with the cosmos go together... Or does it ? What do you think, Chris, Malcolm, ... ?

Well, I think it should lead in that direction anyways.

I want to offer a point of discussion for those who advocate a kind of mix of high-tech solutions and low-tech living. What makes you think that we will be able to preserve, within the next few decades, (1) the theoretical knowledge and know-how, (2) the industrial capacities and (3) the resources (in terms of rare minerals which are essential for all high-tech things, for instance, minerals which are running out everywhere in the world), which are all key elements in the production of things like chips and screens, etc. ?

All these extremely advanced techs have emerged as the result of a process of complexification started in the past couple of centuries, which itself was based on a superabundance of natural resources. The exponential increase of complexity in terms of social and economic structures, is the main cause for the coming about of the extremely high level of specialization needed for running all these industrial processes. How can we store all this knowledge, have enough people who are specialized enough at so many different levels to transmit all of this interconnected knowledge to the next generation, for instance to allow for something so massively complex as a nuclear plant to function in 70 years from now, if basic things like medication, clean water, electricity and gas, become less easy to come by even in advanced societies ?

What will happen when other countries are in the same situation as us and there is no possibility to get help from china if we're short on respirators ? 

Seriously. This applies to almost everything we are using in our daily lives...

All this is totally dependent on the levels of interconnectivity which exist today. The requisite conditions which have allowed for these complexe webs of causes and conditions to come together are not gonna be present anymore. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Seriously. Who's gonna have a smartphone in fifty years ? 20 ? 100 ? Any bets ?

I don't know, I hope I'm not too unskilful, that all this is neither and scary for people, nor ludicrous-sounding, nor radical... It's not radical, not even far-out... It needs to be taken seriously.

The important idea behind my post is this : If we accept the catastrophes which are coming, we can prepare for them in the best possible way, and perhaps avoid the worst. 

For example : my mother has moved to the countryside at an opportune time, it seems, and I've managed to convince her of the necessity of having a great garden... And so I've started working on her autonomy ! She will at some points get chickens, a bee-hive, there will be the possibility to grow more than enough vegetables to be able to trade things with people around, etc. I'm working on getting them to buy a piece of forest, and to think about what it would be like ot live without electricity ;) ;) This is just one area of action.

After the initial schocks of the realization, a whole world of new possibilities and action opens up, which can be incredibly fun !  In fact, you can reconnect with something incredible. It's only been a few decades that we live like we do now. It has not been a success. People were happy before. People have always lived on massively lower levels of energy-consumption. The notion that we are better off being materially wealthy but impotent in most other domains of existence is a myth. One tiny example : the most advanced forms of agriculture which are now being "invented" and experimented with, are starting to resemble more and more what people were always naturally doing... In another area : all traditional cultures had at the core of their organization, some form of spiritual training aimed at allowing their elites to experience the truths that we are here all endeavouring to attain, in this "underground" place, where we are finding nourishment because our own culture has totally forgotten about truth.

The parenthesis, the mistake, was modernity. We will be fine, and better off. Less is more !

Much love.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 3:32 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 3:32 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
 I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Please post references. I would be interested in reading them. I'm daring you to.

I'm reading and digesting your comments. One thing I will say right away is that I think you are underestimating the resiliency of human society and the technology humanity has developed, and you seem to be overestimating the probability of our collapse, at least in terms of timing if not severity. I'm also not sure you're fully accounting for the positives that can and do come with technology. I doubt you'd like to go back to the good old days of not having antibiotics, vaccines and the like, or would you?

I'll explain in more detail but for now, I have to get back to work.
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 4:41 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 4:02 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
curious:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
A more strategic advice from "me" to "me" would maybe be to shut up until you have made yourself a name AND shit happens that illustrate the vulnerability of the economy even for people who are normally protected, and then blurt it out in a laconic way to the right people when it's already obvious. I wouldn't have listened, though, because people were already dying from system failures that could have been prevented, and I just think that is so very unnecessary. 

So I think a key component in navigating the world together on this planet would have to involve better ways of communication that enable people to talk about the sensitive stuff. I don't know how this could be accomplished. Somehow we need to see that we are all in this together, just like Chris said now, and like I said before. As long as people divide themselves and compete for resources, there will always be a lack of resources for some. When it comes to a pandemic, it becomes very obvious how vulnerable that is. And yet, as long as some people take advantage of systems, trusting a system can be risky business. Thus we need to build trust to the extent that nobody ses the need to exploit, and still maintain transparency so that power cannot be exploited. That's a very long-term project. Also, it will cost. Luxury comsumption cannot be part of it, at least not to the extent that people have gotten used to. Advertisement that makes people think that they need all that unnecessary stuff cannot be prioritized. The resources spent on boosting people's cravings for stuff and for travelling all over the world can be put to better use. Basic needs need to be prioritized, and the stuff that actually makes people happy, for real. But this won't work by force, at least not in the long term. Authoritarian governing is no solution. 
Morality is the first training, and morality is the last training. The way I think about about it, first time around it is more about personal action and calm, so you are not twisting yourself up and preventing progress. Second time around, it is more about recognising interconnection and compassion, and skilfully contributing for the benefit of all beings (the whole field of perception together with connected causes and conditions). Maybe you were just too early?

Malcolm
Or maybe I was too late, as we all. These things take time. So many lives could have been spared. I happen to think that is more important than progress of the few. But there is no use dwelling in the past. Better to look at what can be done now. 
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 4:14 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 4:14 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Much love to you, Olivier!
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 5:23 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 5:23 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I'm totally with you on this! I'm 45. A bit burned out with fighting for the biodiversity in this world that cares only about money. I'm a natural beekeeper. I try to create lots of wild native biodiversity on our little organic farm and local farmers hate me for it. They say "why are you letting those thistles spread seeds all over our fields, you ought to destroy them". They hate thistles and they hate dandelions. Both amazing pollen sources for pollinators. 

Here in Denmark they have already killed their Mother long ago with plows and poisons (our ground water now has pesticides too). Forests are less and less. As from 2016 we don't get any insects on the cars windshield glass! They are gone. So are Swallows.

Please don't let old farts like myself and Chris put you down with our "smart" comments! We had our chance to make a change and we blew it, like so many from our generation. We ought to shut up and listen to the young ones like you and that brave girl from Sweden , Greta. 

My son is now 4 years old and I will do my best to point him towards people like you and Greta and all those young ones who are just sick and tired of all these lies. 

One thing we can't do. We can not hate all those who are destroying our planets biodiversity, as we , meditators, well know the illusion this I-mind is! Most folks blindly believe they are this chattering mind. This mind that says "I want more, I need more, I need to protect myself, insure myself, build walls around myself, control nature, gain more, more". We can't hate them as they indeed are delusional from a Buddhist perspective. Once we see this mind fall off the wagon, how can I ever take it seriously? Most people lack this insight. 

Still, as they remain part of the Matrix, they are threat to the balance. What we need is more young people taking up another life style. Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Our planet is overpopulated with humans as is. Looking at today's politics no one wants to back of from consumerism. US the least. 

All we old farts can do is spread the Dhamma to those who lend their ear. And do it well. Last thing we are to do is lecture young folks like Olivier. We are to lend him our ear and give all the support as their fight will be a tough one. The beast we call Stock Market is their main enemy. Only way to sever its many heads is by utterly not supporting it. 

I salute you Olivier for you bravery. I also wish you to practice well so you can be of even more benefit to the many that come after us. 
T, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 5:47 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 5:47 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 279 Join Date: 1/15/19 Recent Posts
nah
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 5:53 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 5:53 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
T:
nah


Ah yes, this deserves a smiley emoticon 
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:04 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:01 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
You should see my small patio. I have invited nature to it, and it said hell yeah. Bees love it. Hedgehogs too. 

This really seems to be a generation thing. I'll be 45 this year too and I agree (well, not to all of it - I do want vaccines, because lack of vaccines kills vulnerable people). It might be vanity speaking, but I suspect we are still relatively young in this company. 

And I'm utterly tired of any lecturing of people who are willing to make personal sacrifices to change things for the benefit of all beings, regardless of whether it comes from old farts or rinpoches or nice realized people in denial or nice realized people who think one should practice instead or whatever. 

Anyway, if we wish to keep technology, we'd better get started with cradle-to-cradle production in order to use resources more efficiently and sustainably and avoid toxic waste and health-threatening handlings of toxic waste. 
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:53 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/6/20 6:50 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Papa Che!

I'm in awe. I'll admit it - at first read, I thought this was just an emotionally charged rant. Childish taunting. But on the second read it dawned on my poor old-age addled brain, and an epiphany blossomed. This is actually an amazing modern example of the lost art of..  satire! It's more cutting, better than Swift when at his best. A Modest Proposal, indeed!

You've blown me away, my friend.

<<bows>>
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 2:03 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 2:03 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I would love to see that patio emoticon are you inviting me? emoticon 
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 2:06 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 2:06 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 2:58 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 2:58 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
I would love to see that patio emoticon are you inviting me? emoticon 


Haha, sure, after Corona. Sweden is not that far away for you. You would be welcome.
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 5:30 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 5:30 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Ah Sverige emoticon I lived in Malmö for 8 years. Also had a nice stuga in Ballingslöv. Love Swedish nature! 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 5:38 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 5:38 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. And besides, Christ is not afraid of death; if anything, he seems occasionally suicidal, unless he is able to practice the proper Boolean discipline.
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 6:03 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 6:03 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. And besides, Christ is not afraid of death; if anything, he seems occasionally suicidal, unless he is able to practice the proper Boolean discipline.

I know He was not afraid of death as He was the Son of God granted place on His Fathers side. 
It was easy for Christ knowing he had a certain pass to the Kingdom of Heaven. 

emoticon 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 6:11 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 6:11 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. And besides, Christ is not afraid of death; if anything, he seems occasionally suicidal, unless he is able to practice the proper Boolean discipline.

I know He was not afraid of death as He was the Son of God granted place on His Fathers side. 
It was easy for Christ knowing he had a certain pass to the Kingdom of Heaven. 

emoticon 

Typo. Seriously, a fucking typo. I meant CHRIS MARTI is not afraid of death. Jesus was actually scared shitless, and rightfully so, take this fucking cup away from me, indeed, right up until the night before. And no, I do not believe, at this time, that ChrisM is the second coming of Christ, unless he claims to be, at which point i would have to give ithe issue more thought and apply proper rabbinical discernment.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 6:20 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 6:20 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
p.s. Papa Che, please forgive the confusion and my poor proof-readings skills sowing such confusion. I would go back and edit or even delete the post in question, but then it might suggest to everyone else that you and i had gone completely insane. So I will let it stand as a small monument, humbling to the max, to my unskillful means of communication.
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 10:06 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 10:06 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I know what you meant emoticon I was just takin' a piss emoticon 

BTW, dear folks I'm off to sit now. I'm sure much of this stuff will creep into me practice if I'm not being mindfull! Noting Aloud here I come! 
thumbnail
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 1:29 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 1:27 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 6439 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. 

He can't be an old fart. That would mean that I am too, and there's no fucking way. We are young, newborn even, and innocent and unfuckupable.

Seriously, look at that babyface (I mean the big one) - that's not the face of an old fart. 
thumbnail
spatial, modified 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 9:52 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/7/20 9:52 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
I used to think about other people "no, you're NOT happy...you've just constructed a world that prevents you from seeing it." And, I used to take comfort in the fact that I saw this and they didn't. It was like my secret weapon, that I felt I would be able to somehow fall back on, if shit ever hit the fan. Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 6:52 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 6:52 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.

Spatial, my question to you would be -- "Does it matter?"
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 6:59 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 6:58 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
I know what you meant emoticon I was just takin' a piss emoticon 

BTW, dear folks I'm off to sit now. I'm sure much of this stuff will creep into me practice if I'm not being mindfull! Noting Aloud here I come! 
emoticon

Papa Che, you wily young dharma fox, i think that someday, as you sit in flawless meditation, you will note the arising and passing away of a bit of dukkha that in light of anatta is simply major fucking regret that you tipped me off to the use of emjois!!!!!!!!! emoticonemoticonemoticonemoticon

I vow in your honor to only use this incredible siddhi in the service of the salvation of all sentient beings. emoticon
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 8:34 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 8:34 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
spatial:
I used to think about other people "no, you're NOT happy...you've just constructed a world that prevents you from seeing it." And, I used to take comfort in the fact that I saw this and they didn't. It was like my secret weapon, that I felt I would be able to somehow fall back on, if shit ever hit the fan. Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.

Yeps! You screwed! 


emoticon 
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 8:36 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 8:36 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. 

He can't be an old fart. That would mean that I am too, and there's no fucking way. We are young, newborn even, and innocent and unfuckupable.

Seriously, look at that babyface (I mean the big one) - that's not the face of an old fart. 

That photo if me is 4 years old !!! 
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 8:38 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 8:38 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2453 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
I know what you meant emoticon I was just takin' a piss emoticon 

BTW, dear folks I'm off to sit now. I'm sure much of this stuff will creep into me practice if I'm not being mindfull! Noting Aloud here I come! 
emoticon

Papa Che, you wily young dharma fox, i think that someday, as you sit in flawless meditation, you will note the arising and passing away of a bit of dukkha that in light of anatta is simply major fucking regret that you tipped me off to the use of emjois!!!!!!!!! emoticonemoticonemoticonemoticon

I vow in your honor to only use this incredible siddhi in the service of the salvation of all sentient beings. emoticon

You are a darling Tim emoticon 
thumbnail
spatial, modified 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 9:04 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/8/20 9:04 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 614 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.

Spatial, my question to you would be -- "Does it matter?"


I told that story partially as a joke, and partially because there is something in me that does feel that way now and then. But at the moment, I'm not able to connect with it, so for now, I guess it doesn't matter emoticon
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 2:36 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 2:36 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
 I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Please post references. I would be interested in reading them. I'm daring you to.

I'm reading and digesting your comments. One thing I will say right away is that I think you are underestimating the resiliency of human society and the technology humanity has developed, and you seem to be overestimating the probability of our collapse, at least in terms of timing if not severity. I'm also not sure you're fully accounting for the positives that can and do come with technology. I doubt you'd like to go back to the good old days of not having antibiotics, vaccines and the like, or would you?

I'll explain in more detail but for now, I have to get back to work.


Hi Chris,

I came to understand that, much like the dharma, there is nothing I could say right now that would take someone to where I am in just one forum post. It's just one of those topics that recquires a lot of reading, learning, accepting, digesting, evolving, opening up, reading, learning, etc.

It's not possible for someone to quickly come to a full appreciation of this situation I'm describing.

It was a long process for me and I can't reasonably expect that someone who is not willing, or not in a position to engage themselves seriously in trying to understand the bigger picture, could come to share my views.

So I decided to keep it simple, after much writing and pondering...

In short, get this book : https://www.wiley.com/en-us/How+Everything+Can+Collapse%3A+A+Manual+for+our+Times-p-9781509541386

It's a huge slap in the face, be warned... For me at least. It contains all the information you need, being a very fact and quantitative oriented discussion, the result of years of work, which draws on hundreds of references, scientific papers, articles, books. It's pretty complex, technical and heavy (and toxic), but I think you have some scientific background, and since this is, to me anyways, the definitive reference, I think that's what one who can handle it should go for.

It is extremely solid, and I would be amazed if you disagreed with say, even 10 percent of it. Even if you did, I doubt that this would be enough to change the general picture. If however you think it's on the whole an over or under estimation of things, or fails to see such and such ... Amazing !!! come back to explain that to me, please ! At least it will be a discussion where we would share a lot of common ground.

The thing about loss of information and knowledge resulting from decomplexification processes of societies, or degrowth, comes from that book, pp. 198 et seq from the french edition.

For some background, the author is a biologist specialized in complex systems who has for instance worked for the european parliament on tasks such as evaluating food safety in europe... Another of his published books, fun read too.

Alternatively one might start with this article as an apéritif (but although it's a serious academic work, it lacks the unshakeably solid feeling that the other one leaves you with) : https://mahb.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/deepadaptation.pdf

There you go emoticon I hope you do read it.

Cheers
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 3:13 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 3:09 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Thank you for the references, Oliver.

Believe it or not, I've read the IFLAS Deep Adaptation paper, and some time ago. I do follow these things. I don't look at the world with rose-colored glasses but I don't use blackout shades, either. I'm extremely concerned about climate change and I think we are well past the point from which we can get away without some very serious effects. We're now into adapting to the coming changes, not preventing them. I'm just not at all sure that we face a high probability of the collapse of civilization, but even with a low probability of occurrence, it's something to think about and have contingency plans for.
thumbnail
Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 3:24 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 3:24 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 982 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
If anyone does wish to read How Everything Can Collapse, I recommend NOT going through Wiley to purchase. Wiley's Vitalsource Bookshelf is the work of the devil. It has been carefully crafted by legions of demons to erode our humanity.  iTunes is better option, and I'm sure there are others.

Malcolm
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 4:00 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/9/20 3:50 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Curious : Oh, thank you for that ! I'd never heard of that site, I just took the first link which wasn't amazon and put a disclaimer in my original post which I accidentally deleted.

Chris : Right, maybe that won't be such a slap in the face for you as it was for me then. I suspect I also read this at a special time in my life, after a long retreat, etc., and so it was particularly impactful for my extremely open awareness. But yeah, I'll be interested in what you think. And just one thing : the name is Oliv i er ;)

Best wishes gentlemen

Edited
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/10/20 7:39 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/10/20 7:39 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
And just one thing : the name is Oliv i er ;)

Yeah, sorry about that. Nasty typo.
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/10/20 8:28 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/10/20 8:25 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm totally with you on this! I'm 45. A bit burned out with fighting for the biodiversity in this world that cares only about money. I'm a natural beekeeper. I try to create lots of wild native biodiversity on our little organic farm and local farmers hate me for it. They say "why are you letting those thistles spread seeds all over our fields, you ought to destroy them". They hate thistles and they hate dandelions. Both amazing pollen sources for pollinators. 

Here in Denmark they have already killed their Mother long ago with plows and poisons (our ground water now has pesticides too). Forests are less and less. As from 2016 we don't get any insects on the cars windshield glass! They are gone. So are Swallows.

Please don't let old farts like myself and Chris put you down with our "smart" comments! We had our chance to make a change and we blew it, like so many from our generation. We ought to shut up and listen to the young ones like you and that brave girl from Sweden , Greta. 

My son is now 4 years old and I will do my best to point him towards people like you and Greta and all those young ones who are just sick and tired of all these lies. 

One thing we can't do. We can not hate all those who are destroying our planets biodiversity, as we , meditators, well know the illusion this I-mind is! Most folks blindly believe they are this chattering mind. This mind that says "I want more, I need more, I need to protect myself, insure myself, build walls around myself, control nature, gain more, more". We can't hate them as they indeed are delusional from a Buddhist perspective. Once we see this mind fall off the wagon, how can I ever take it seriously? Most people lack this insight. 

Still, as they remain part of the Matrix, they are threat to the balance. What we need is more young people taking up another life style. Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Our planet is overpopulated with humans as is. Looking at today's politics no one wants to back of from consumerism. US the least. 

All we old farts can do is spread the Dhamma to those who lend their ear. And do it well. Last thing we are to do is lecture young folks like Olivier. We are to lend him our ear and give all the support as their fight will be a tough one. The beast we call Stock Market is their main enemy. Only way to sever its many heads is by utterly not supporting it. 

I salute you Olivier for you bravery. I also wish you to practice well so you can be of even more benefit to the many that come after us. 

Hi Papa Che ! 

Thank you for your niceness, though I'm not doing anything very brave to be honest ! It's kind of a minimum in my view ... But you're right, most people don't want...
I think generations should not fight each other either, and I don't feel like I'm in a position to lecture people on their behavior, but I do see that most people just can't help it for reasons which often makes it hard to hate them ^^ 

Although that is definitely an area of work : how to face all this toxic stuff and darkness with a bright perspective and compassion ? I find it difficult sometimes. The notion that, like you say, this could have been prevented pretty easily, can trigger some... contempt, or ill-will and such. Sure, this is true about anything, as soon as you start to look at what seems wrong about the world and people's behavior, but the magnitude of the current destruction of life in all its forms is just so comically disproportionate, nd its causes so pathetic... The balance between acceptance and enough revolt that serious action will be taken, is very tricky, I find... What do you reckon ?

Anyways, cheers my friend.
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/11/20 4:36 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/11/20 3:53 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Nice documentary, called Planet of the humans, which explains why

-"renewable energies" are neither renewable nor clean
-how the notion that future technological inventions are gonna save us is just gonna make things more terrible
-have only watched the first 30 min so far, so, probably other intersting things emoticon

Although the video title in this link is in french, the video is in english : Here

Edited as I watch : Hilariously, it seems that the increased use of "clean energies" this past decades corresponds to the sharpest rise in fossil fuel consumption ever !!

Almost as hilarious is the fact that : solar panels are built from coal. They melt coal and quartz at a very high temp, using coal furnaces, for the silicium.

A quote : "The problem with all of these materials, is that it takes a incredible amount of energy to mine and process all of the materials that go into building something like this ["clean" energy power plants]. You use more fossil fuels to do this than you get benefit from it. You would have been better off just burning the fossil fuels in the first place instead of playing pretend. [...] This relies on the most toxic and industrial processes that we'e ever created. "

Otherwise, I wanted to link this Rob Burbea talk from 2011, called The meditator as revolutionary, where he suggests that SE could be defined as the willingness to enter into civil disobedience to try to avoid impending doom emoticon A funny and thought-provoking idea : There
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 3:27 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 3:06 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Chris Marti:
 I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Please post references. I would be interested in reading them. I'm daring you to.

I'm reading and digesting your comments. One thing I will say right away is that I think you are underestimating the resiliency of human society and the technology humanity has developed, and you seem to be overestimating the probability of our collapse, at least in terms of timing if not severity. I'm also not sure you're fully accounting for the positives that can and do come with technology. I doubt you'd like to go back to the good old days of not having antibiotics, vaccines and the like, or would you?

I'll explain in more detail but for now, I have to get back to work.


Hi Chris,

I came to understand that, much like the dharma, there is nothing I could say right now that would take someone to where I am in just one forum post. It's just one of those topics that recquires a lot of reading, learning, accepting, digesting, evolving, opening up, reading, learning, etc.

It's not possible for someone to quickly come to a full appreciation of this situation I'm describing.

It was a long process for me and I can't reasonably expect that someone who is not willing, or not in a position to engage themselves seriously in trying to understand the bigger picture, could come to share my views.

So I decided to keep it simple, after much writing and pondering...

In short, get this book : https://www.wiley.com/en-us/How+Everything+Can+Collapse%3A+A+Manual+for+our+Times-p-9781509541386

It's a huge slap in the face, be warned... For me at least. It contains all the information you need, being a very fact and quantitative oriented discussion, the result of years of work, which draws on hundreds of references, scientific papers, articles, books. It's pretty complex, technical and heavy (and toxic), but I think you have some scientific background, and since this is, to me anyways, the definitive reference, I think that's what one who can handle it should go for.

It is extremely solid, and I would be amazed if you disagreed with say, even 10 percent of it. Even if you did, I doubt that this would be enough to change the general picture. If however you think it's on the whole an over or under estimation of things, or fails to see such and such ... Amazing !!! come back to explain that to me, please ! At least it will be a discussion where we would share a lot of common ground.

The thing about loss of information and knowledge resulting from decomplexification processes of societies, or degrowth, comes from that book, pp. 198 et seq from the french edition.

For some background, the author is a biologist specialized in complex systems who has for instance worked for the european parliament on tasks such as evaluating food safety in europe... Another of his published books, fun read too.

Alternatively one might start with this article as an apéritif (but although it's a serious academic work, it lacks the unshakeably solid feeling that the other one leaves you with) : https://mahb.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/deepadaptation.pdf

There you go emoticon I hope you do read it.

Cheers

okay, the book is not yet released! how did you read it? i have pre-ordered it.

i am printing out the stanford article. i am listening to Planète des humains ou Comment le capitalisme a absorbé l'écologie . You are a dangerous man. Est-il vrai que vous êtes très jeune, comme semblait le dire Papa Che?

You've got your seminar here, Olivier,

and Chris has an extraordinary fruit from the seed he planted in this thread.

Let's do this education properly, Professor. Yes?

(edit) Olivier, my email is tim_farrington@msn.com   I would be most grateful if you would write to me there.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 3:13 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 3:13 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm totally with you on this! I'm 45. A bit burned out with fighting for the biodiversity in this world that cares only about money. I'm a natural beekeeper. I try to create lots of wild native biodiversity on our little organic farm and local farmers hate me for it. They say "why are you letting those thistles spread seeds all over our fields, you ought to destroy them". They hate thistles and they hate dandelions. Both amazing pollen sources for pollinators. 

Here in Denmark they have already killed their Mother long ago with plows and poisons (our ground water now has pesticides too). Forests are less and less. As from 2016 we don't get any insects on the cars windshield glass! They are gone. So are Swallows.

Please don't let old farts like myself and Chris put you down with our "smart" comments! We had our chance to make a change and we blew it, like so many from our generation. We ought to shut up and listen to the young ones like you and that brave girl from Sweden , Greta. 

My son is now 4 years old and I will do my best to point him towards people like you and Greta and all those young ones who are just sick and tired of all these lies. 

One thing we can't do. We can not hate all those who are destroying our planets biodiversity, as we , meditators, well know the illusion this I-mind is! Most folks blindly believe they are this chattering mind. This mind that says "I want more, I need more, I need to protect myself, insure myself, build walls around myself, control nature, gain more, more". We can't hate them as they indeed are delusional from a Buddhist perspective. Once we see this mind fall off the wagon, how can I ever take it seriously? Most people lack this insight. 

Still, as they remain part of the Matrix, they are threat to the balance. What we need is more young people taking up another life style. Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Our planet is overpopulated with humans as is. Looking at today's politics no one wants to back of from consumerism. US the least. 

All we old farts can do is spread the Dhamma to those who lend their ear. And do it well. Last thing we are to do is lecture young folks like Olivier. We are to lend him our ear and give all the support as their fight will be a tough one. The beast we call Stock Market is their main enemy. Only way to sever its many heads is by utterly not supporting it. 

I salute you Olivier for you bravery. I also wish you to practice well so you can be of even more benefit to the many that come after us. 

Hi Papa Che ! 

Thank you for your niceness, though I'm not doing anything very brave to be honest ! It's kind of a minimum in my view ... But you're right, most people don't want...
I think generations should not fight each other either, and I don't feel like I'm in a position to lecture people on their behavior, but I do see that most people just can't help it for reasons which often makes it hard to hate them ^^ 

Although that is definitely an area of work : how to face all this toxic stuff and darkness with a bright perspective and compassion ? I find it difficult sometimes. The notion that, like you say, this could have been prevented pretty easily, can trigger some... contempt, or ill-will and such. Sure, this is true about anything, as soon as you start to look at what seems wrong about the world and people's behavior, but the magnitude of the current destruction of life in all its forms is just so comically disproportionate, nd its causes so pathetic... The balance between acceptance and enough revolt that serious action will be taken, is very tricky, I find... What do you reckon ?

Anyways, cheers my friend.
amen, Papa Che. This guy's got the conn, here.
Olivier
The balance between acceptance and enough revolt that serious action will be taken, is very tricky, I find... What do you reckon ?
i reckon that we need to take the leap here. I'm in. The real question now is to listen to the state of the art here, which is you. So, what do you reckon, mon ami.

love, tim
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 7:53 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 7:53 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Olivier --

What do you think the ongoing pandemic will do to the environment (short-term), and to the long-term effort to stave off environmental disaster? Will it accelerate our decline or could the pandemic become the fulcrum leveraging us to a better future? It seems to me this is a Black Swan that comes along only every so often, and that it can be used for good or for ill, depending.

Thoughts?
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 10:25 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 10:25 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Ok, I give up for now, this is the third time the system eats my message... Will come back...
A Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 10:34 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 10:34 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:

Really, this is how things always are, though there is now a more compelling narrative. The human story includes death, and it can happen at any time. In the middle of this there could be some other disaster that puts to shame the wake of this virus. Who knows? Always practice like your life depends on it. In some ways it does. The opportunity for compassion is omnipresent and boundless. All resistance to how things are is an opportunity for inquiry. In my experience, the dharmakaya points back at it its own impermanence/unity all of the time, in every facet, in every moment. I'm ready to show up for whatever that is. 

I'm with you: Bring it on.

So this is indicative of my recent conundrum whether to try and remember what my "big issue" was last night and continue from there or let the newness of the day really sink in. So for me, uncharted territory is a choice.
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 11:36 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 11:36 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
Unable to post!
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 11:51 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 11:51 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
What I said about this posting issue in another topic just now, to Olivier:

 Is there a technique for getting it back ? 

Not as far as I can tell, and this happens to me 
a lot, too, In fact, it just happened as I posted this reply.

What I do:

1) Compose posts in Word and paste them here
2) Compose posts here but save them every so often in the clipboard to preserve them

That's all I can suggest.
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 2:15 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/12/20 2:13 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
Hi Olivier,
I'd differ here -- I don't think the documentary you mention
made a cogent case against renewables. All it proves is that the current
capitalist system along with renewables has not worked. True solar
energy requires other raw materials and coal or other fossils
to make but if most of the  energy were renewable (solar for example), we
 would likely be in a much better place -- solar cells last decently long
enough. This has not been possible, and I like to believe, this has
to do with the system not renewables. Sure, the resources needed to make
the renewables will run out too at some point -- so in that sense, nothing
is renewable.

That said (and maybe this is your point),
I do like to believe that preventing global warming is the wrong
question. It's another self-centered questions we humans ask, now that we
see ourselves on the edge of destruction. The right question is: how to live
in harmony with the planet and other species -- and how to live in a way to
kill as little as possible. We humans are involved in mass killing currently
-- the current anthropocene is supposed to have started thousands of years
ago -- when humans started large scale deforestation in order to achieve the
ease of cultivation and settling down. Then came industrial revolution which
gave the anthropocene another big push. That global warming goes away --
should be a result of living in harmony with other species -- not the goal
-- so is my not so humble opinion.

I like the thought about SE and revolutionaries. Though what does SE stand for?
Is it fruition? From other posts on DhO, I gather it comes after EQ -- thus my
guess that it is fruition.

Mike.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 4:30 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 4:29 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Ok, I give up for now, this is the third time the system eats my message... Will come back...
Olivier, your poor tormented genius: discipline, discipline, discipline. Suck it up, compose on your own word processing, save, and then cut and paste. Just fucking quit bitching and do it, the loss of your posts hurts us all.

“This article may contribute to future work on sustainable management and policy as much by subtraction as by addition. By that I mean the implication is for you to take a time to step back, to consider ‘what if’ the analysis in these pages is true, to allow yourself to grieve, and to overcome the typical fears we all have, to fond meaning in new ways of being and acting. That may be in the fields of academia or management--- or could be in some other field that this realization leads you to.”
 
“Deep Adaptation: A Map for Navigating Climate Tragedy” by Prof. Jem Bendell, PhD

love, tim
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 5:54 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 5:51 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Olivier --

What do you think the ongoing pandemic will do to the environment (short-term), and to the long-term effort to stave off environmental disaster? Will it accelerate our decline or could the pandemic become the fulcrum leveraging us to a better future? It seems to me this is a Black Swan that comes along only every so often, and that it can be used for good or for ill, depending.

Thoughts?
Well I agree !

I think, though, we should remember that this isn't that big of a deal compared to what awaits us, without wanting to be alarmist.

It should be put into perspective. In the sixties there was an episode of Hong-Kong flu, which killed over 30 000 people in france - nobody made a big deal out of it. Every year, 600 000 people die in france - 27 000 have died of corona so far. The leading causes of mortality except natural death in the world are, from what I gather : air pollution, tobacco smoke, alcohol consumption, obesity, malnutrition. 

I'm no expert on any of those things, but have been listening and reading a lot. Right now obviously, environmentally speaking, things have been bette during the economic stop, you can tell : I see a bunch more birds in the sky than usual, and other things like that, more insects, etc. It's very nice.

In the long-term, I don't think the people who have interests in growth will turn away from that easily. We should expect some kinds of moves which will try to capitalize on the "shock", I have no idea how exactly, but they are gonna try. One small example : the EU has just signed a neo-liberal trade agreement with mexico while everybody is looking in the other direction.

The fact that everyone is talking about "relance", about getting things back to "normal", is a tell... The people in power have been elected, or have gotten there, by internalizing a competitive and profit driven ideology. Do people usually change quickly ? I don't know... The institutions in place have been built according to certain world-views and certain .. hm .. attitudes ?

Here in France, there are many many voices being heard saying that we should change something about the system, relocalize the entirety of our productions for instance. In the major newspapers, grous of famous people are signing collective articles saying : let's not go back ! Let's stave off environmental catastrophy ! etc.

These things are being heard. But I really think that individuals have a huge role to play here, because, what are you gonna do, huge lobbies have more influence than environmentalists. And lobbies won't stop lobbying.

My position is : I hope this lasts long enough to deal a hard enough blow that things are actually gonna HAVE to change. I don't know what that would mean exactly, but something like a heart attack to the world economy which produces systemic failure of some kind. Hoping that it won't be too hard on people. In any case, it would be less intense than nothing happening at all.

Anyways, sorry but I don't have much of an idea what will happen.

Here's an interview of a VERY bearded Noam Chomsky about this, it puts thigns in perspective, and as always he has a refreshing take on the subject, including fun facts like "we knew that there would be a coronavirus outbreak years ago" emoticonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-N3In2rLI4

Cheers my friends,

Olivier

ps : Just wanted to add something : in any case, I think it's a good time to reflect, on the notion for instance that food shortages are extremely likely to happen in many place at some point, given the interconnectivity of the global system, and so, if you can garden, maybe start honing your skills just in case emoticon If everybody does it, we're golden
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 6:04 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 6:04 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
[quote=Tim Farrington
]
okay, the book is not yet released! how did you read it? i have pre-ordered it.

i am printing out the stanford article. i am listening to Planète des humains ou Comment le capitalisme a absorbé l'écologie . You are a dangerous man. Est-il vrai que vous êtes très jeune, comme semblait le dire Papa Che?

You've got your seminar here, Olivier,

and Chris has an extraordinary fruit from the seed he planted in this thread.

Let's do this education properly, Professor. Yes?

(edit) Olivier, my email is tim_farrington@msn.com   I would be most grateful if you would write to me there.


Sorry about that, I just looked up if there was en english version and posted the first link... perhaps you could get it in french ?

Otherwise, I remember he references a book by Clive Hamilton, Requiem for the human species, or something like that, which is in english and probably shares a lot of content.

Yes I'm almost a kid you could say, being 26 !

I've recently been reproached for my professoral tone by a friend, so, I feel like I should get a grip on that a bit...

Anyways, I don't know, I think with all this you've got a lot on your plate already my friend !

Perhaps another recommentdation from Burbea would interest you, perhaps you know it already, a book by James Hillman called We've had a hundred years of psychotherapy and the world is getting worse. It's very thought-provoking.

Honestly man, we're all in this together, I have, and no one else has, the solutions ! The only things I know for sure, for me at least is that : industrial economies are gonna crash sooner or later ; whether they take everything down with them or not, is a question... ; in the mean time, we can try to wean ourselves off it as much as possible, to (1) avoid prolonging its life expectency (spelling) ; (2) be resilient when conventional supply chains start breaking (3) not participate in the mass extermination of life, and if possible (4) contribute to protecting and restoring life. In fact there are so many so many possibilities open for us ! 
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 6:15 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 6:15 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Mike Smirnoff:
Hi Olivier,
I'd differ here -- I don't think the documentary you mention
made a cogent case against renewables. All it proves is that the current
capitalist system along with renewables has not worked. True solar
energy requires other raw materials and coal or other fossils
to make but if most of the  energy were renewable (solar for example), we
 would likely be in a much better place -- solar cells last decently long
enough. This has not been possible, and I like to believe, this has
to do with the system not renewables. Sure, the resources needed to make
the renewables will run out too at some point -- so in that sense, nothing
is renewable.

That said (and maybe this is your point),
I do like to believe that preventing global warming is the wrong
question. It's another self-centered questions we humans ask, now that we
see ourselves on the edge of destruction. The right question is: how to live
in harmony with the planet and other species -- and how to live in a way to
kill as little as possible. We humans are involved in mass killing currently
-- the current anthropocene is supposed to have started thousands of years
ago -- when humans started large scale deforestation in order to achieve the
ease of cultivation and settling down. Then came industrial revolution which
gave the anthropocene another big push. That global warming goes away --
should be a result of living in harmony with other species -- not the goal
-- so is my not so humble opinion.

I like the thought about SE and revolutionaries. Though what does SE stand for?
Is it fruition? From other posts on DhO, I gather it comes after EQ -- thus my
guess that it is fruition.

Mike.
SE is stream entry = fruition yes, in the way we think about it hear, others differ, and in fact so many opinions exist that probably you could give any definition, which is what Burbea is doing, I guess jokingly.

Yeah, I guess shifting perspective to a positive version of the story could be helpful, nice.

About your renewables paragraph, I mean, yes there are renewables, and the sun is renewable. Plants already exist, we don't have to go looking very far.

But, a question : if you can come up with a solution in three seconds while responding to me here, why has no one else enacted it already ? If they had actual renewables, they would have made and commercialized them already. Why ? Because their motivation is profit. It's a promess of more profit for them if society keeps functioning than if it doesn't. They know that. 

We have all the solutions : stop overconsuming. Live in harmony with the natural world, as you suggest.

Will we do it ? Will we reorganize our lives drastically to cut off by 90 percent you energy consumption ? That is the minimum needed emoticon emoticon

Hey, I just thought of an interesting read for anyone interested, kind of on this topic : it's "Touch the earth" by T C Mc Luhan (from the top of my head). It's an anthology of writings from native americans. It's amazing, they just knew it was gonna happen, because they had a different relationship with other living beings.
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 11:36 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 10:41 PM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
For one, it did not take me 3 seconds and secondly, I've not provided any solution. This is a question I've thought about on and off for years and I  had already seen this documentary before you mentioning it.

For why is it difficult to change anything: The reason is the same as 1) At an individual level -- why we humans have difficulty changing bad habits? , and 2) at a system level: why bad capitalist systems finally just end up pandering to the rich without much concern for society? This is as regards why we've not been able to implement renewables properly. Or so is my guess. And the situation is definitely more complicated. Or maybe it is just as simple as that we humans have a shelf-life. I'm no authority.

As regards the anthropocene started 1000's of years ago I don't have any deep thoughts on how to go back to the pre-deforestation kind of life-style, and whether it is a good thing [[Edit: Meaning, I personally would like to believe that it's a good thing, but much more research & understanding is needed I think in order to get to an understanding of how to structure a healthy society]]
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 6:41 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 6:37 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Mike Smirnoff:
For one, it did not take me 3 seconds and secondly, I've not provided any solution. This is a question I've thought about on and off for years and I  had already seen this documentary before you mentioning it.

What I assumed you were saying was that there was a way to produce (1) let's say the same amount of total energy (E) as we are needing right now with our current lifestyles, which can actually be given a pretty accurate number (2) but to have E replaced by sustainable and non polluting energy sources, and somehow I heard in what you were saying that something like solar cells could be a good candidate in your view. Sorry if I was mistaken !

In any case just to clarify what I mean : from what I've read from more informed people than I, this is simply wishful thinking emoticon

As I understand it, the two things we have in front of us is (a) Too Many People (b) Too Much Resources Being Used Per Capita. It seems very complicated for humans to change (b), as you say... As for (a), well, it's a bit taboo, although, see this (I'm sure you know this paper but perhaps some others here don't) :  World scientists' second warning to humanity [url=]https://watermark.silverchair.com/bix125.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAoAwggJ8BgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJtMIICaQIBADCCAmIGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMXk1NJ33uXnFoGUMbAgEQgIICM0oGPQQmKMVyjE60gZ_HyWuWEi4vayNRtg-h2--vjE4dPdeCpsNRRnp0rk5S7SXZzLJjAH0hLJ7zoYNhVolTFJj1TfaMAR4FVQOpuiocOGu2JJy8FwIkEf2wpmVmdfYndJhIsJPM81mji_BDZJo7xI-IdvtjyqkIgJAB3CMkidQ84BYsfL9Pe1rgX0kMSwNAWoBTgd9Ry7BjEcv2hlByr2UM0DhQ6CdQHXr9kdDZ1usUpdRpFsqaOL7DvkKhJvciLka5yMvFTaPe3LOxAsZkpuwSLOMp7rV6K15lMWltlf6pUxJVyHreQGWd39aTn0TWj8wQ8EhHp-HbwniY93qYV8GUYLqlkZf3Bk0l6zESrn-20kmEsv2FpYsDCY7AxUH-z9Q4Ix33pqpG-9Ra2-IltueNS7Yx6VfOULFjcyDMk_2pAmfk9RQGtyo7vXqpRP915tRXBX4Z-iePlCLgspTKjBa59ouEi7LemGf_Rb96Mihf6X84cqGVH6qQGTZaJxM1jIdkZtj9vquskYZX-NJ2-UaH1W9dRULkobcNzi1oWgVDXYm6sg5vgyittYzEbyq0U62BtLS7I7FzhoOj3JQyXD6cjxGmCTpsvOuxlpFypdmzHtJcfQfQg6WFmIIJq6E8dk4QK_s0wgA9SN_chlJ0TVvMow1kV_f2GIAEi9sON76uh1Cfm-PukGXZ_lOaCbCyKQwg8IjxJ-qDm6-SpLKdM8IFi_obc7ZLt3NZkkwTG-Ftpc3F

(Sorry I can't manage to reduce the link)

My personal intuition regarding this, Mike, is that collectively embodying a sense of sacredness of existence and nature would be the most profound and perhaps only viable solution to this.
And that we would have much to learn from native peoples.

I guess this is a bit like what you meant when you said that trying to mitigate climate change is the wrong way to look at it, but that what we are trying to do is save life and become aware of the sacredness of life and all life forms ? I agree with you fully on that... As if focusing on external factors is not the key...
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:06 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:06 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
Yeah, that's sort of what I meant, the points 1) and 2) you mention. Just that it was an opinion -- not a solution. Maybe we are just playing with words here. The point  I was really making was that the documentary definitely is not making a cogent point that renewables won't work. Regarding other sources you mention, I don't know. There are people I trust who seem to think that solar is a good idea. But yes, I don't know enough to say this with any certainty.
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:51 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:44 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Sure, the documentary by itself is not enough. There are other sources of info though ;(

Just in terms of , what's it called, energy return units ? The ratio of energy put in to energy got out off of an energy source. WHen you're building an energy source, you have to put in energy to make that device, first, right ? You can quantify that.

The numbers i'l quote are from memory, but you can find all this in the first book I referenced to chris (once it's translated...).
So oil, beginning of the 20th century, had a ratio of 100:1 or something like that. Put in one unit of energy get 100 back. Very good.

Nowadays, non-conventional oils have a ratio of 1.8:1. 

It's soon gonna become more energy-consuming to extract fossil fuels, than energy producing. At 1:1 you just have to stop because it is useless.

Alternative energy sources seem to have much lower efficiency than fossil fuels, than the ratio that has been necessary in order to build the current system. For instance, I think at max capacity, wind mills have an energy return of 18:1, which is rather good.

But it has been estimated that : there is not enough fossil fuels over the 1:1 ratio left on earth in order to produce enough alternative energy sources with lower efficiency rates like wind mills and solar that would cover up current needs. That's a bit convoluted but wrap your head around it....

It takes energy to produce a windmill, to produce solar cells, to produce whatever. To produce (E) energy, you need X windmills. Currently, (E), the global energy consumption, is produced through a mix of energy sources, mainly fossil. If we were to want to replace all energy sources by "renewables" to produce clean (E), there is not enough energy from fossil fuels left on earth to produce and renew X windmills, while still producing (E) in the intermediary period where we are trying to build the X wind mills, it seems. Just being schematic ...

And, of course, the industrial chains, mining, transport, mineral processing/chemistry/etc., the machines which produce the machines which produce solar cells, all of this is ultimately relying on fossil fuels. The documentary had the merit of showing that pretty well. Sure, you can create a net zero emission electric car : awesome. But to build the car parts you have used fossil fuels. How much ? It turns out, perhaps more than you would have for a normal car. Etc.

I'm not making any of this up, and there is a counter-argument to any kind of solution that we could imagine, to any that I've been able to come up with anyways... 

This kind of saturation and increasing scarcity of resources is the case in most domains : rare metals needed for virtually all technology are simply running out. Running out. 

Today a modern fisherman, equipped with gps tracking technology and radars and whatnot, things which were unthinkable a couple of generations ago, are still getting like, something of the order of magnitude of 10 times less catch than two generations ago.

There is no turning away from the fact that (E) is not gonna be available anymore, soon. It's a bit like death... some day, you know... we are not infinite. 

Refusing that, by dreaming up unthought of solutions for the future, is unrealistic and dangerous. It provides the incentive to deny our situation, and to further the destruction of life to "temporarily" meet our energy needs, until we find a way to have a clean source for that.

It's impossible ! It must be said firmly.

A finite world, with finite resources, cannot support infinite growth - it is just common sense.

I think we should collectively acknoledge that, grieve, and then start being responsible !

If we accept catastrophe, that is how we will be able to avert it.

--

To go back on the covid -19 thing : just found this, thought I'd share : https://forge.medium.com/prepare-for-the-ultimate-gaslighting-6a8ce3f0a0e0

Food security :
https://www.scientistswarning.org/coronavirus-food-security-and-sustainability-in-a-just-in-time-global-supply-chain/
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:55 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:55 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
I don't see your argument. (Not saying you're wrong -- just that I don't see it).
Let's say we're able to get to some kind of population stabilization in say some 10's of years.
We're able to get to a point where there is enough solar so that everything is being powered using solar & the rest of the solar cell production can be carried out using the existing solar + raw materials used to make solar.
Then, how is this not sustainable for the amount of the time the raw materials used to make solar panels exist?
[[there is of course the energy of storing solar -- let's assume we're able to get around that somehow]] 
True, finite resources can't produce infinite production but we don't need infinite production if population stabilizes and people don't want infinite amount of things for themselves.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:59 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 7:59 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
My opinion is that we need to start to redefine "wealth" to mean less about material possessions and amassing huge sums of money and to mean more about personal well-being, sustainable societies, and the well-being, on average, of every human on this planet.
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:12 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:12 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
I'd agree -- with the difference that we should not be worried just about humans but about all species.
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:15 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:15 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 4428 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
That's a good fix to what I said.
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:00 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:00 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Mike Smirnoff:
I don't see your argument. (Not saying you're wrong -- just that I don't see it). What do you mean ? My argument is that there is no possibility of producing (E) through solar energy for instance.
Let's say we're able to get to some kind of population stabilization in say some 10's of years.
We're able to get to a point where there is enough solar so that everything is being powered using solar I just showed how this is not possible... & the rest of the solar cell production can be carried out using the existing solar + raw materials used to make solar.
Then, how is this not sustainable for the amount of the time the raw materials used to make solar panels exist?
[[there is of course the energy of storing solar -- let's assume we're able to get around that somehow]] 
True, finite resources can't produce infinite production but we don't need infinite production if population stabilizes and people don't want infinite amount of things for themselves.
Honestly, I'm starting to feel like you have an agenda, Mike. I'm providing realisitc information with sources and you keep using the same but-if-we-find-a-magical-solution thinking and disregarding my arguments, or saying you don't see them, and using that as a way to push forward a kind of "clean growth" or "clean business as usual" POV. 

Maybe someone has some money invested in solar cells ? *wink wink wink* 

Or, perhaps, you just misunderstood and in that case, I'll be happy to clarify anything ?

We do not have tens of years my friend. We have a couple of years to cut off emissions by 86 percents.

Said in the spirit of gentle poking, not harshness.
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:10 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:10 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
No agenda. I don't have any money in solar or renewable energy.

I don't see how the same amount of energy E cannot be produced with solar. Of course, this would need a huge infrastructure over-haul -- and that in my opinion, is the bottle-neck, not solar per say.
Olivier S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:43 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:43 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 758 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Because the amount of energy that would be needed to produce this much solar is not available.
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:46 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:46 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 77 Join Date: 2/6/20 Recent Posts
Prove it.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:50 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:50 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Mike Smirnoff:
No agenda. I don't have any money in solar or renewable energy.

I don't see how the same amount of energy E cannot be produced with solar. Of course, this would need a huge infrastructure over-haul -- and that in my opinion, is the bottle-neck, not solar per say.
Mike, most simply put, to produce solar cells requires a vast amount of coal or other non-renewalbles in itself. The pure quartz (not cheap itself) misy be heated to 4000 degrees to produce many elements of solar panels. By the time you've spent the coal to make the cell, you'd have been better off to have used the coal directly to make electricity in the first place. Cells are not immortal, too: you will never be free of the requirement aof making new cells, on the firm invisible foundation of cheap, available coal, which is disappearing under the feet o solar, and will take solar down with it and the rest of civilization as we know it when that coal well runs dry.
Mike Smirnoff, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:53 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 9:53 AM

RE: Uncharted Territory