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ATTENTION!: It appears that our server has been hacked through this version of Liferay, meaning it is no longer secure, and so expect instability as we deal with this and attempt to upgrade to Liferay 7, which we failed to be able to do last year the last time the team attempted it, but we have no choice at this point, so bear with us as we try again. Save any long posts in a text file before posting them. You can follow me on Twitter at @danielmingram for updates if the site is down. Apologies for any complexity this causes. We will work as fast as we can. We have backups of the database, so hopefully nothing will be lost. Thanks to all helping with this complex process.

 

 

 

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Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 8:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 8:58 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 9:54 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 10:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 10:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Stirling Campbell 4/5/20 11:11 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory A. Dietrich Ringle 5/12/20 10:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/27/20 11:40 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 11:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 11:19 AM
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RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 3:22 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 4:57 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 10:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/5/20 5:31 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 4:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 6:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 7:35 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 12:31 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 2:43 PM
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RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/16/20 9:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/16/20 1:47 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/17/20 8:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/17/20 9:54 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 10:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/17/20 11:21 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/17/20 11:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/17/20 11:49 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/17/20 12:23 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 3:56 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 5/29/20 4:32 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 4:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 5/29/20 5:11 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 5:23 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 5/29/20 6:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 6:04 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/29/20 6:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 5/29/20 7:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/30/20 3:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/16/20 10:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/16/20 2:40 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/16/20 3:07 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/17/20 12:09 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/24/20 3:51 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/25/20 6:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/26/20 2:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/25/20 7:50 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/25/20 8:49 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/27/20 11:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/27/20 11:47 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/27/20 11:48 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/27/20 12:01 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 12:32 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/27/20 12:42 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:08 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:39 PM
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RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/27/20 12:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 12:52 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/28/20 9:27 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/28/20 9:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 2:26 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/27/20 12:26 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:18 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/27/20 1:35 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 1:48 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/27/20 1:57 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 2:09 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 6/27/20 2:16 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 2:49 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 3:33 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 4:50 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/27/20 3:41 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 5:02 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:00 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:13 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/27/20 6:12 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:17 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/27/20 6:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 6/28/20 3:34 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/28/20 4:42 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 12:25 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 9:37 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 12:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 12:35 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 1:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 1:24 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 1:51 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/29/20 2:09 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 6:17 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/30/20 7:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 8:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 6/30/20 8:43 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 9:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/30/20 12:09 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 12:27 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 8/15/20 11:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/15/20 11:29 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 8/16/20 9:14 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 8/16/20 10:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/29/20 2:52 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/29/20 6:38 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 6/30/20 7:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/30/20 8:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 5:01 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 5:46 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 6:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 7:01 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/27/20 11:25 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory terry 8/16/20 4:54 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 5/29/20 2:35 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory shargrol 5/29/20 5:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/29/20 8:10 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 3:18 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 3:22 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 4:25 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 4:44 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 6:14 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 11:43 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Milo 4/6/20 12:43 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 9:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 9:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 10:10 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Hibiscus Kid 4/5/20 10:22 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:24 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 10:26 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 10:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 10:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 11:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 11:08 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 11:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 11:16 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 11:33 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 12:56 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/5/20 1:03 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/5/20 1:07 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 12:55 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Noah D 4/5/20 1:48 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/5/20 2:20 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 2:43 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/5/20 5:44 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/5/20 10:16 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 2:33 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 6:19 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 8:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 8:09 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 8:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 8:19 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:48 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 9:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 9:14 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 6:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 6:27 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 7:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 11:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 11:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 11:55 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Lewis James 4/6/20 12:34 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 1:54 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 12:42 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory T 4/6/20 5:47 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 5:53 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 7:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/6/20 7:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 7:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 8:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/6/20 2:10 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/16/20 2:41 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 9:26 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 6:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/6/20 2:13 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 4:41 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 4/6/20 3:08 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 3:32 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 4/9/20 2:36 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/9/20 3:13 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Not two, not one 4/9/20 3:24 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 4/9/20 4:00 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/10/20 7:39 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/12/20 3:27 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/12/20 10:25 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/13/20 4:30 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/14/20 6:04 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 4:14 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/6/20 5:23 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/6/20 6:04 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 2:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/7/20 2:58 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 5:30 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/6/20 6:53 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 2:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/7/20 5:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 6:03 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/7/20 6:11 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/7/20 6:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/7/20 10:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 4/8/20 6:59 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/8/20 8:38 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/7/20 1:29 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/8/20 8:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 4/10/20 8:28 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/11/20 4:36 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/12/20 7:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/14/20 5:54 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/16/20 12:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/12/20 11:36 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/12/20 11:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/12/20 2:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/14/20 6:15 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/14/20 11:36 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 6:41 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 7:06 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 7:51 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 7:55 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/15/20 7:59 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Hibiscus Kid 5/15/20 8:09 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 8:12 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/15/20 8:15 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 9:00 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 9:10 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 9:43 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 9:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 9:50 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 9:53 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 10:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 10:02 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:18 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 10:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:37 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 10:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:46 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 11:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:44 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 10:45 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 10:50 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 10:28 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/15/20 11:08 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/15/20 11:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/15/20 11:22 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 2:31 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/16/20 3:07 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/16/20 9:31 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 5:37 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/17/20 8:19 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 9:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/17/20 9:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/17/20 10:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/17/20 10:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 10:35 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 5/17/20 9:14 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/17/20 9:15 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 5/17/20 9:43 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/16/20 3:01 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 12:18 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 11:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 5/15/20 10:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 5/12/20 3:13 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Ricky Lee Nuthman 6/27/20 3:45 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory shargrol 6/29/20 1:04 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory spatial 4/7/20 9:52 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 4/8/20 6:52 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory spatial 4/8/20 9:04 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Papa Che Dusko 4/8/20 8:34 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 8/21/20 10:40 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 8/21/20 4:38 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Chris Marti 8/21/20 6:20 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/27/20 11:22 PM
RE: Uncharted Territory Tim Farrington 8/28/20 2:05 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 8/28/20 9:21 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 8/28/20 9:20 AM
RE: Uncharted Territory Olivier 8/28/20 9:18 AM
Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 8:52 AM
To start this topic, I'll paraphrase my friend Vincent Horn: "This is what we practice for."

Am I right?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 8:58 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 9:40 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
To start this topic, I'll paraphrase my friend Vincent Horn: "This is what we practice for."

Am I right?


Yes. It's like a dissolving of a lot of what has been taken as simple unquestioned ground, for a lot of the world. Every step, or quarantined non-step, is a whole new thing now for the vast majority of people, with or without any practice in essential groundlessness. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 9:44 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
This situation is also what I like to think of as a universal bullshit detector. The formal version of this goes something like, "Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it."

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 9:54 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

I'm concerned that you may be suicidal, Chris, considering death an alternative. Death is just not an alternative, and i speak as one who has at various points tried to avoid rebirth like the plague. Maybe you've got the chops to pull it off, but still, you're probably just going to be reborn in some damn Pure Land bardo anyway, at this point, with some damn Buddha type teaching you all over again to watch your breath. I don't see an alternative to "bring it on," either, here in these bodies.

Well, maybe running away screaming. But then people give me shit for being out in public during a pandemic, spreading germs and panic. So yeah, seriously, thinking it all the way through, no alternative but to shelter in place. This is why we practice, it's game time. Bring it on. It's already done wonders for agnostic, in my humble opinion. The monkeys may end up with a warlord or something, in the short term, but as long as it's a drunken warlord with his eye on the dot, who stays fat and happy, that's probably for the best too.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:02 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I've experienced war so to me all this "new (covid) territory" not new at all but yes we indeed practice for This-ness as there is nothing outside of This no matter pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.

Also, being Master of This does not fool Anicca out of throwing this human creature into old age, sickness and death. As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it "we have already lost no matter what" or "aaah, emoticon Im gonna die emoticon

So hurry up people and wake up to THIS as indeed there is NOTHING outside of THIS. Fire up that practice and stop "sleeping" in some blissful realm emoticon emoticon emoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:06 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Dear Tim,

Thank you for your concern! I am not, nor will I be, considering suicide. It's just not my thing. I was thinking in terms of probabilities and Boolean logic, and then I typed the offending sentence. I'm sorry. I'll work harder to communicate with more concern for everyone's possible reaction to my words.

Yours in solidarity,

CM

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:10 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it...

Kenneth does have a way with words, doesn't he?


RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:22 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Between Bill Hamilton's and Kenneth's one-liners, I'm starting to think it's a pragmatic-dharma-lineage thing.

In a way, with this all spiraling out of control, I really think this situation is going to touch everyone in the country in some way. "Bring it on" is pretty much the only attitude to have.

Personally, it's already revealed some of my character and it looks like I have some work to do with regards to boundaries, communication, and reactivity. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:24 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it...

Kenneth does have a way with words, doesn't he?

he certainly knows how to crush those romantic notions we might have about awakeing and all other dogmatic buddhist ideas emoticon The lad has some serious talent emoticon I love him for his rawness and right-in-your-face-ness.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:26 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
The lad has some serious talent emoticon

And you, sir, have a serious smiley addiction.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:36 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
I've experienced war so to me all this "new (covid) territory" not new at all but yes we indeed practice for This-ness as there is nothing outside of This no matter pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.

Also, being Master of This does not fool Anicca out of throwing this human creature into old age, sickness and death. As Kenneth Folk so finely puts it "we have already lost no matter what" or "aaah, emoticon Im gonna die emoticon

So hurry up people and wake up to THIS as indeed there is NOTHING outside of THIS. Fire up that practice and stop "sleeping" in some blissful realm emoticonemoticonemoticon

This is a kind of war-conditions for the masses thing. Death is on the table, up front and obvious for everyone, and bullshit in that heightened light is way obvious.

But Papa Che, you have made me realize that this whole Buddhism thing is a bait-and-switch. I mean, thank you, but damn. The story goes that Prince Siddhartha left his protected palace and on the road encountered, for the first time, a sick person, and aged person, and a corpse, and then a sanyasin, who inspired him onto his path. But now . . . well . . . sickness, and old age, and death, oh my. The 8-fold yellow brick road doesn't change any of the things that got Gautama going in the first place? Why was I not told this earlier? Have you mentioned this to anyone else?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:38 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The lad has some serious talent emoticon

And you, sir, have a serious smiley addiction.
emoticonemoticonemoticonemoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:44 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Dear Tim,

Thank you for your concern! I am not, nor will I be, considering suicide. It's just not my thing. I was thinking in terms of probabilities and Boolean logic, and then I typed the offending sentence. I'm sorry. I'll work harder to communicate with more concern for everyone's possible reaction to my words.

Yours in solidarity,

CM
Well, see, there you go, it was just a language thing. In Boolean logic, death is a 0, so if I'd recognized your angle I wouldn't have given it a moment's thought, no value change, no problem. I was misreading you anyway, thinking you were treating death as a 1, so forgive me for that. And thank you for the reassurance, in any case.

yours in these uncharted waters,
tf

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 10:53 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
[quote=
]

"But Papa Che, you have made me realize that this whole Buddhism thing is a bait-and-switch. I mean, thank you, but damn. The story goes that Prince Siddhartha left his protected palace and on the road encountered, for the first time, a sick person, and aged person, and a corpse, and then a sanyasin, who inspired him onto his path. But now . . . well . . . sickness, and old age, and death, oh my. The 8-fold yellow brick road doesn't change any of the things that got Gautama going in the first place? Why was I not told this earlier? Have you mentioned this to anyone else?"



Ehm, emoticon maybe THAT is why Mr.Buddha was so keen on teaching the VERY END of suffering = Pari-Nibbana emoticon  all the yellow brick path maybe only Interventions during the conscious hours? 

emoticon (I think Chris wants me to stop using smileys damn it)

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4/5/20 11:03 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
[quote=
]

"But Papa Che, you have made me realize that this whole Buddhism thing is a bait-and-switch. I mean, thank you, but damn. The story goes that Prince Siddhartha left his protected palace and on the road encountered, for the first time, a sick person, and aged person, and a corpse, and then a sanyasin, who inspired him onto his path. But now . . . well . . . sickness, and old age, and death, oh my. The 8-fold yellow brick road doesn't change any of the things that got Gautama going in the first place? Why was I not told this earlier? Have you mentioned this to anyone else?"



Ehm, emoticon maybe THAT is why Mr.Buddha was so keen on teaching the VERY END of suffering = Pari-Nibbana emoticon  all the yellow brick path maybe only Interventions during the conscious hours? 

emoticon (I think Chris wants me to stop using smileys damn it)
(fuck Chris, he has no sense of humor whatsoever, which is why you HAVE to use smileys with him. It's a question of skillful means for you, like the Buddha using a different idiom with the Brahmins.)

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4/5/20 11:08 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
... fuck Chris...

Honestly, there's just no desire on my part to get any closer to Che than I have to, at least until social distancing and government quarantine orders are lifted.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/5/20 11:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

Really, this is how things always are, though there is now a more compelling narrative. The human story includes death, and it can happen at any time. In the middle of this there could be some other disaster that puts to shame the wake of this virus. Who knows? Always practice like your life depends on it. In some ways it does. The opportunity for compassion is omnipresent and boundless. All resistance to how things are is an opportunity for inquiry. In my experience, the dharmakaya points back at it its own impermanence/unity all of the time, in every facet, in every moment. I'm ready to show up for whatever that is. 

I'm with you: Bring it on.

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4/5/20 11:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... fuck Chris...

Honestly, there's just no desire on my part to get any closer to Che than I have to, at least until social distancing and government quarantine orders are lifted.


Well, I'm as close to Papa Che as I can stand too, as far as that goes. The fucker just destroyed my faith in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the sangha, and followed it up with a smiley.

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4/5/20 11:16 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

I'm watching the supply chains. Particular for the health system, distribution of the agricultural surplus, and heating. And whether means of exchange continue to work.

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4/5/20 11:16 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Uh, that's Mr. Buddha to you, pal.

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4/5/20 11:19 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
I'm watching the supply chains. Particular for the health system, distribution of the agricultural surplus, and heating.

Yeah, great point, if I can be serious for a minute. Those do bear watching. Believe it or not, that's a big part of what I for a living, for one particular commodity industry and its end markets. 

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4/5/20 11:33 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Uh, that's Mr. Buddha to you, pal.


Mea culpa. I certainly did not mean to seem disrespectful to Mr. Buddha by saying that I got sucked into that bait-and-switch of his so bad, until Papa Che set me free. [smiley face]

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4/5/20 12:55 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
... fuck Chris...

Honestly, there's just no desire on my part to get any closer to Che than I have to, at least until social distancing and government quarantine orders are lifted.


Well, I'm as close to Papa Che as I can stand too, as far as that goes. The fucker just destroyed my faith in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the sangha, and followed it up with a smiley.

Shoit man, you got me there! I had an impression that Faith was SOLID as a rock totally not subject to Anicca! 

(no smileys this time ... but this could change) 

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4/5/20 12:56 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Behold! It's Mr. Buddha:




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4/5/20 1:03 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Behold! It's Mr. Buddha:



Okay, I can take refuge in that, even after Papa Che DESTROYED my FAITH again, and without even the compassion of a smiley.

Plus, I like what Mr. B is doing with the red/yellow thing, just enough Santa Claus to balance the Dalai Lama kind of thing, very with it. You'll sell a million of these. My $29.95 is in the mail.

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4/5/20 1:07 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
And, and, and, you can cuddle Mr. Buddha up to your face while you sleep! Talk about reducing dukkha!

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4/5/20 1:20 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.

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4/5/20 1:48 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Turns out the 4 noble truths are more than just a psychological exercise, but an actual description of the fact that reality (the conventional world we live in) is samsara.  

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4/5/20 2:20 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
Turns out the 4 noble truths are more than just a psychological exercise, but an actual description of the fact that reality (the conventional world we live in) is samsara.  

Hm ... lemme see ...

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"  or
"If a stock market collapses and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"


(still no smileys ... damn it)

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4/5/20 2:43 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Noah D:
Turns out the 4 noble truths are more than just a psychological exercise, but an actual description of the fact that reality (the conventional world we live in) is samsara.  

Hm ... lemme see ...

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"  or
"If a stock market collapses and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"


(still no smileys ... damn it)

Well - on the tree - it never made a sound anway.  We made the soud emoticon
And on the stock market - sure the howling and whining for bailouts echoes right around the world! emoticon

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4/5/20 3:22 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.

Yeah, it's worse than that, I think. This is the death of financial markets capitalism.  20% to 30% is just the first wave. After that their suppliers go bust, and their suppliers. And of course the negative demand effect from unemployment will be huge.  Everthing is so interconnected and overleveraged now, compared to he 1930s, it's a real worry.  And having multi-trillion dollar bailouts every ten years is not sustainable. I see three principal scenarios for how this ends.

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 

2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

3. Socialism - Something like providing everyone with a universal basic income, recovering the looted simulus money through wealth taxes, having mixed public/private sector model, and move as much as possible to online business and automation. Basically we have to totally rebalance our banking and productive sectors, and truly ride the technological change to a new type of society, instead of being stuck in the past. Markets can't do this on their own - it needs heavy state intervention to support it.

Whatever happens, the economy of 'things' is dead. The only thing that will keep us going is realising we never needed all that crap we bought, and we can live simply and cheaply and have a really high standard of life after all. All we need is the four requisites (plus energy and sewerage), and a smartphone and a big flatscreen. Simplicity in the home, complexity in the servers. Restraint in private spaces, luxury in public spaces. 

So we may have to find different ways to use the agricultural and manufacturing surplus. Instead of employing people to build malls, sell barbie dolls, advertise fast food, and promote ocean cruises, we may need to employ them to build online games, create virtual environments, offer online grief counselling, drive delivery drones, grow organic food in cities, repair the environment, create public art and so on.  We need a massive realignment if we are to avoid a fairly destructive feudalism.

Ahh... rant over ... I feel better already!  

As you say, these are the times we practice for.  It's much easier if we are not clinging to weird mind-made objects.

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4/5/20 4:57 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
This is the death of financial markets capitalism.

I suspect it's not. Financial markets can serve people, not the other way around. If we regulate markets fairly, and properly, there is economic good to come from that. The problem we've had over the past several decades is that financial markets have become playgrounds for speculators and manipulators, not for the average person, or for main street, which is comprised of real economy businesses (manufacturers, for example) that need investment services, liquidity, and more efficient asset allocation.

Personally, I would like to see a major reorientation of the avaricious, modern American capitalism that is predatory and serves those who already have, not those who need and have not. A real and deep recognition that we're all in this society together would be nice, but if that's not possible because some people can't figure it out, then regulation with teeth, real, sharp teeth, is the way to go.

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4/5/20 5:31 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Wow, I didn't think I would actually live to see financial market capitalism fall. I just hope that it won't be too painful for those who are already in great need before a new system is put in place. I won't miss the capitalism per se. I will certainly not miss the religion of the Holy Market That Fixes Everything With Its Divine Hand.

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4/5/20 5:44 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
By the way, this is the sort of discussion I had in mind when I started a thread a while back about practice implications for a better society. When I said that it was what the practice was for, I was heavily criticized. 

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4/5/20 10:15 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yes I don't think financial markets will disappear - I agree they perform a very useful function.  But they will have to be severly tamed to prevent this ongoing exposure to overleveraging, which seems baked in to the business model at the moment. Regulations don't seem to have done the trick; too easy to capture the regulators.  Also, I think central banks will need to move to providing stimulus through UBI-type payments, not just bank bailouts, as the bailouts clearly encourage more of the same overleveraging.  Anyway, not really a dharma conversation ....   

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4/5/20 10:16 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
By the way, this is the sort of discussion I had in mind when I started a thread a while back about practice implications for a better society. When I said that it was what the practice was for, I was heavily criticized. 
So what advice would 'you' now give 'you' then?  emoticon

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4/6/20 2:33 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Well, it's a little late, but maybe the world will be more willing now, for the future. I think we need to prioritize more how resources are utilized. We need to consume less unnecessary material stuff and focus on making sure that people have their basic needs met. There need to be more resources on health care and different kinds of support for those who are in need. We need to have systems that are less vulnerable, that work even in a time of crisis, even if it isn't the cheepest short-term solution. We need to obsess less with "me" and "mine" and see that we are all connected. We need to produce food more locally and use the resources of the earth in a more sustainable way. We can't just take it for granted to have our exotic tastes catered for within the blink of an eye. We need to make sure that people around the world have the resources for a healthy life style with basic hygiene, food and health care, even if this means that we in the west can no longer afford all the material stuff that we have learned to think that we need. We don't actually need all that stuff, and we need to see that our cravings only cause suffering. We need to be less dependent on energy sources that are limited and that exploit the earth and that are dependent on deliveries. We need to have a sustainable infra structure. Stuff like that. 

Thanks for meeting my childish "told ya so" comment in a constructive way. It did hurt to be bashed at for wanting to be proactive for the sake of everyone's wellbeing, and that ego still dwells somewhere, craving to be accepted, but it was still not the most skillful comment. And sometimes being right sucks. 

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4/6/20 4:51 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Another thing maybe none of us quite expected to live to see so vividly is something on the scale of the influenza pandemic of 1918-1919, which killed more people in its couple years than died in WWI. The timing was interesting for me, because I had just finished reading David Quammen's book "Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Pandemic," which I highly recommend for the larger ecological/evolutionary context of these interesting times we live in. Quammen is a "nature writer" who has never written a non-interesting piece; he goes to the heart of what he's interested in, quite literally, talks to all the right people in depth, gets the big picture as clearly as anyone, and writes with exquisite lucidity, and even a genuine thread of humor. (His "Song of the Dodo," for instance, is the funniest book you will ever read about the current wave of human-related mass extinctions.) He understands not just the ecology and evolution, but also people, and the process of science, and politics.

I have started in on John Barry's classic, state-of-the-art study of the 1918 pandemic, "The Great Influenza." Barry starts with a protracted consideration of the history of infectious disease research in the U.S., and uses the Johns Hopkins labs beginning in the 1880s in particular as sort of a long on-ramp to the main story. I'm still on the on-ramp, but one interesting tidbit so far is that the pandemic is often called "the Spanish flu," which is basically a politically-conditioned artefact of history and politics: Spain was a prominent country not fighting in WWI at that time, and so had a freer press without wartime censorship, and so the news literally came out from there. But the disease itself almost certainly had its origins elsewhere, and possibly even in the U.S. The dance of protracted govermental denials, distortions, and finger-pointing is nauseatingly familiar.

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4/6/20 6:34 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
A more strategic advice from "me" to "me" would maybe be to shut up until you have made yourself a name AND shit happens that illustrate the vulnerability of the economy even for people who are normally protected, and then blurt it out in a laconic way to the right people when it's already obvious. I wouldn't have listened, though, because people were already dying from system failures that could have been prevented, and I just think that is so very unnecessary. 

So I think a key component in navigating the world together on this planet would have to involve better ways of communication that enable people to talk about the sensitive stuff. I don't know how this could be accomplished. Somehow we need to see that we are all in this together, just like Chris said now, and like I said before. As long as people divide themselves and compete for resources, there will always be a lack of resources for some. When it comes to a pandemic, it becomes very obvious how vulnerable that is. And yet, as long as some people take advantage of systems, trusting a system can be risky business. Thus we need to build trust to the extent that nobody ses the need to exploit, and still maintain transparency so that power cannot be exploited. That's a very long-term project. Also, it will cost. Luxury comsumption cannot be part of it, at least not to the extent that people have gotten used to. Advertisement that makes people think that they need all that unnecessary stuff cannot be prioritized. The resources spent on boosting people's cravings for stuff and for travelling all over the world can be put to better use. Basic needs need to be prioritized, and the stuff that actually makes people happy, for real. But this won't work by force, at least not in the long term. Authoritarian governing is no solution. 

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4/6/20 6:16 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
 David Quammen's book "Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Pandemic,"

Second! I read this book about a year ago.

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4/6/20 6:19 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
And sometimes being right sucks. 

Holy crap... you were right?   emoticon

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4/6/20 6:38 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
 We need to consume less unnecessary material stuff and focus on making sure that people have their basic needs met. There need to be more resources on health care and different kinds of support for those who are in need. 

This is in the right direction, I think. I would agree on universal basic income. I would agree on universally available, publicly funded healthcare and, to reign things in on the excess income/excess consumption vector, to fund both of those I would establish a sort of  "maximum" annual income, above which folks are taxed at a rate commensurate with what the U.S. had during the 1950s - around 90%, or more.

RE: Uncharted Territory
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4/6/20 6:27 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?

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4/6/20 7:07 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yes!!!



I meditate instead of watching the news.
I read references to the suttas in the hope I can figure out what the fuck is going on with the mind instead of watching the news. 


I then read the news and am far less affected by fear mongering, misinformation, far-too-hastily created hot takes, and all that jazz.
I watch the death toll rise and am in a much more balanced place to be circumspect about the whole affair. 

So meditation has been very helpful for me. 

I only wish it were more clear what on Earth I'm investigating in the first place while I sit there. emoticon

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4/6/20 7:07 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Seeing, hearing, tightness, anticipation, hearing, touching, hardness, comprehending, imagining, hearing, anticipation, seeing, hearing, coolness, touching, movement, expanding, wetness, swallowing, seeing, hearing, stiffness, unpleasant, hearing ... 

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4/6/20 7:35 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Curious:

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 

2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

Yeah, I'm concerned about these two possible outcomes. Of the two I worry most about Feudalism, or as I would describe a parallel outcome - Totalitarianism. I see a leaning in that direction in the U.S., with a denial of expertise and the slow but steadily increasing acceptance, by surprisingly many, of a personality cult.


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4/6/20 7:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?

At the risk of provoking an endless confusion of translations across various tradions: acceptance, and patience.

P.S. Americans practice, to raze the illusion of a self at the center; the British practise, to rase the illusion of a self at the centre. This sectarian conflict is a needless tragedy.

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4/6/20 7:53 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Provocateur!

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4/6/20 8:00 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
And sometimes being right sucks. 

Holy crap... you were right?   emoticon

Well, yeah. I said that the dangerous thing was not talking about how our cravings cause harm on a society level, when short-term profit gets to be more important than basic needs for people. But who was right is not important. Minimizing harm in this time of crisis is.

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4/6/20 8:02 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
...but you were right. emoticon

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4/6/20 8:09 AM as a reply to T.
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Plus, given my recent experiments in pidgin Advaita, I think we can say also that she WAS NEVER WRONG!

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4/6/20 8:13 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Yoda Advaita:

I, there is
Inquire, you must!
Know, you will

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4/6/20 8:19 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Yoda Advaita:

I, there is
Inquire, you must!
Know, you will

shit, it's not even pidgin Advaita I've been trying to speak! It's something in which Yoda Advaita translates to:

is-ing
inquiring must-iferously!
knowing already-ing

RE: Uncharted Territory
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4/6/20 8:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?


For me it has been helpful in many ways. I haven't had much reactive behavior with regard to this crisis. Instead of drowning in media speculations, I have focused on very few trustworthy channels that post confirmed information. I have been comfortable with not knowing. I have listened and waited instead of making comments on social media that I would later live to regret because they hurt someone. I have listened to and supported people who worry without getting wired up myself (with an exception in the beginning when I raised my voice for relational reasons that I then saw through, thankfully). I have been careful without panicking. I have taken time to practice when other things were cancelled. I have made new friends online with meditation practicioners who have also taken the time to practice. My practice has had a boost, so although I feel for those who are ill or at risk, I'm also happy. I don't know if I'll still have a job from July 1st, but I know I'm not alone in that. I don't know what the future will bring, and I accept that. I don't know when I'll get to see my partners, as they live in towns that we are advised not travelling to or from, and I'm okay with that. Well, I'm not liking it, but the bigger picture requires caution, and there's nothing I can do about that, and I have my practice. I connect with other practicioners all over the world. I prioritize things that matter (to the extent that my poor executive function and other disability-related stuff doesn't get in the way). I have helped some people close to me not to rush into doing things that they would later regret (such as visiting old relatives while having a cold) because they were reacting and couldn't think straight (and their older relative really wanted to have their laundry done that specific day and were guilttripping them). None of this is thanks to me. It is thanks to the practice. 

However, so far nobody close to me has been severely affected by the virus, so I realize that I'm privileged in that regard. I don't know if the practice would be any help if something like that would happen. Also, being autistic makes social isolation easier, I guess, so if it weren't for that, maybe I would be panicking.

I'm still trying to figure out how I can be of help without that turning into a risk factor for others. I would like to be more useful, in a way that really does help, not just looks like it does.

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4/6/20 8:48 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Plus, given my recent experiments in pidgin Advaita, I think we can say also that she WAS NEVER WRONG!

Nah, that's just faulty logic. Ugh. I still have reactive patterns with regard to poor logic. emoticon

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4/6/20 8:53 AM as a reply to T.
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Hell yeah. emoticon

And I'm not liking the reactive pattern that wishes to emphasize that. Because it really isn't important, and I'm fully aware that it is annoying as fuck. 

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4/6/20 9:03 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Tim Farrington:
T:
...but you were right. emoticon

Plus, given my recent experiments in pidgin Advaita, I think we can say also that she WAS NEVER WRONG!

Nah, that's just faulty logic. Ugh. I still have reactive patterns with regard to poor logic. emoticon

No, keep me honest, please, scrupulously, with regard to poor logic. And forgive my faulty logic here, I didn't mean to be annoying as fuck (what a treasure of a dharma technical term that is, thank you). What I was going for was relatively complete nonsense.

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4/6/20 9:14 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Haha, so you have those reactive patterns too? Sure, we can call them honesty instead. Deal. emoticon

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4/6/20 9:26 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
 We need to consume less unnecessary material stuff and focus on making sure that people have their basic needs met. There need to be more resources on health care and different kinds of support for those who are in need. 

This is in the right direction, I think. I would agree on universal basic income. I would agree on universally available, publicly funded healthcare and, to reign things in on the excess income/excess consumption vector, to fund both of those I would establish a sort of  "maximum" annual income, above which folks are taxed at a rate commensurate with what the U.S. had during the 1950s - around 90%, or more.

I think we're on the same page here. 

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4/6/20 11:03 AM as a reply to T.
aaaaaaah.... emoticon

https://youtu.be/AJjaQJTBTGU 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 11:20 AM as a reply to T.
T, I don't have a lot of time today - what's the gist of the video you posted?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 11:55 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
anonymous member pointing out that the virus was adapted by a scientist in NC, who was there on a grant/fellowship of some kind, originally from Wuhan, China. 

Basically says that gov't research led to this - possibly intentionally. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 12:34 PM as a reply to T.
I admit I hastily watched the video on 2x speed, but isn't his argument essentially "researchers including some from Wuhan have been working on mutating coronaviruses to study their effects, therefore this coronavirus outbreak must be a man made disease?"

Didn't independent teams of scientists already sequence this thing and find the related mutations in some animal species, strongly suggesting it was a natural cause? Due to certain inefficiences in the virus and sequences that are redundant but found in animal species found in Wuhan.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 12:42 PM as a reply to T.
T:
anonymous member pointing out that the virus was adapted by a scientist in NC, who was there on a grant/fellowship of some kind, originally from Wuhan, China. 

Basically says that gov't research led to this - possibly intentionally. 


And I thought it was CIA funding the research in Wuhan to make it look like China did it. Get out of here! 

I trust China as much as I trust US or Russia but please stop feeding this forum with such crap! Back to practice!


(most certainly no smileys this time) 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 12:43 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

Seems like in a lot of cases it's a sudden acceleration of existing trends. C-Virus just gave things a shove and moved the schedule up a decade.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 1:54 PM as a reply to Lewis James.
Didn't independent teams of scientists already sequence this thing and find the related mutations in some animal species, strongly suggesting it was a natural cause? Due to certain inefficiences in the virus and sequences that are redundant but found in animal species found in Wuhan.

Why, yes. Indeed they did. I read that same Nature article recently:

The genomic features described here may explain in part the infectiousness and transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. Although the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here. However, since we observed all notable SARS-CoV-2 features, including the optimized RBD and polybasic cleavage site, in related coronaviruses in nature, we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 2:10 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Can anyone point to specifics on how their meditation/reflection/self-inquiry practice (practise?) has been beneficial recently? For me, it is about two things that seem to help daily: patience, and acceptance.

You?

Angst does not arise. Worry does not stick. Compassion and happiness predominate. 

Of course, that could just be because I'm getting more sleep in lockdown. Or because I'm getting Tummo going a bit better in the mornings.  

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 2:13 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
A more strategic advice from "me" to "me" would maybe be to shut up until you have made yourself a name AND shit happens that illustrate the vulnerability of the economy even for people who are normally protected, and then blurt it out in a laconic way to the right people when it's already obvious. I wouldn't have listened, though, because people were already dying from system failures that could have been prevented, and I just think that is so very unnecessary. 

So I think a key component in navigating the world together on this planet would have to involve better ways of communication that enable people to talk about the sensitive stuff. I don't know how this could be accomplished. Somehow we need to see that we are all in this together, just like Chris said now, and like I said before. As long as people divide themselves and compete for resources, there will always be a lack of resources for some. When it comes to a pandemic, it becomes very obvious how vulnerable that is. And yet, as long as some people take advantage of systems, trusting a system can be risky business. Thus we need to build trust to the extent that nobody ses the need to exploit, and still maintain transparency so that power cannot be exploited. That's a very long-term project. Also, it will cost. Luxury comsumption cannot be part of it, at least not to the extent that people have gotten used to. Advertisement that makes people think that they need all that unnecessary stuff cannot be prioritized. The resources spent on boosting people's cravings for stuff and for travelling all over the world can be put to better use. Basic needs need to be prioritized, and the stuff that actually makes people happy, for real. But this won't work by force, at least not in the long term. Authoritarian governing is no solution. 
Morality is the first training, and morality is the last training. The way I think about about it, first time around it is more about personal action and calm, so you are not twisting yourself up and preventing progress. Second time around, it is more about recognising interconnection and compassion, and skilfully contributing for the benefit of all beings (the whole field of perception together with connected causes and conditions). Maybe you were just too early?

Malcolm

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 3:08 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
To start this topic, I'll paraphrase my friend Vincent Horn: "This is what we practice for."

Am I right?
Indeed !

I want to share my perspective. (Not adressing you in particular Chris, but any good soul who might read this ;) )

For me, there has been almost no surprise or shock or grief about this situation, because I have been doing enough reading up on the potential for collapse of global society to know that it's not a question of if anymore, but of how and when.

It seems to me that the coronavirus crisis is a very small event compared to what I've come to accept is gonna happen, has been happening, and is in fact happening everywhere around the world right this minute. Every five minutes a child dies of hunger somewhere, right ? Most of the world is already in a state of collapse. Like someone whose name I forgot said : "Collpase means living like the people who grow your coffee."

The coronavirus thing has basically made no change to how I live, because I've moved to a small village where nothing is happening, and my life consists mostly of : meditating, reading, writing, thinking, composing, etc. I'm basically living extremely simply, and preparing myself for a very different world, where different skills will be recquired. 

I don't have a job because I have little desire to integrate a system which is so utterly destructive, and because I know it is already starting to break down. Well, I am indeed pursuing things like a PhD, trying to be a composer, writing books... and have in no way given up on a "conventional" career - but it's just one of the options I'm imagining for my life, one small part of it. I'm working on my needs, living on extremely little, trying to cut myself off from industrial products, firstly because they are usually of bad quality, and secondly, because they are soon gonna be much less widely available. I don't own a car, never have, never will. I've decided to never again fly in a plane if I can possibly avoid it. I'm learning about how to grow things, because that's gonna be an essential need in the times to come, and like malcolm says : you don't need much, if every family has a 250 m² garden, we are good.

In russia, most people have kept this kind of thing, most people, even in big cities, still own a 6-acre garden accessible through public transportation or by walking (cities were designed this way intentionnally). Thanks to that, they have avoided food crises when the USSR collapsed (30 years ago, may I remind you). The international community, seeing the collapse of the union, prepared a bunch of food help, but it was not needed.

Interestingly, usually when I talk about this on forums, nobody answers. I wonder if it's because people are in denial, or if they don't have enough information, or if it's because it seems preposterous to many who are "in the system" and have built their lives and careers around a certain way of functioning, or unabile/unwilling to digest this, or what. Anyways : I see in many people a kind of realization these days that "shit, this system is fragile".

Well... There is a huge big mass of information and hard to refute demonstrations about the unsustainability of just about everything in our lives right now, it's out there waiting for you... emoticonemoticonemoticon

I'm not trying to sound scary, there is no need to freak out in my opinion, but it's important to realize that things are gonna change enormously, probably sooner than later. Very probably, will will all experience that during our lifetimes. It's important to come to terms with that, to accept it however painful it may be, to be able to take the right steps so that it happens in the most positive way possible... In fact it's our responsibility. 

I now view this whole mess as something extremely positive, personally. I've never wanted to live the way that developed countries have since the 30 glorious years. And now I truly understand why ^^ I understand what was wrong, why I and so many young persons I know have such great difficulties integrating this crazy society. I now fully recognize and understand that the problem is not on our side. Quite the opposite... 

I've always felt this, many people I know have always felt this without being able to fully grasp it. I'm of a generation (currently 26 years-old) who has been told since they were children that urgent action was needed to tackle extremely dangerous climate change before it is too late, and who has grown up witnessing the fact that nothing at all was made to even try to slow the increase (!) in the toxicity of our lifestyles. In fact, I now take it as my duty to find a way of living which is as disconnected as possible from (1) technologies, (2) overconsumption, (3) industry.

The generation after me, obviously, has experienced this much more full-on, and thankfully they are proving to be wiser than the rest... Or perhaps it's just that their unease is so strong that they can't do anything other than act. It's very inspiring and extremely pathetic at the same time, I find.

My meditation practice is fundamental in several respects in my relation with all this. I don't make a disconnect, actually... I don't think there is anything much more ecological than dissipating the boundaries between self and world, right ? After all, eco-, oikos, means "surroundings", "milieu".... But then again, surprisingly, it doesn't necesarily seem that awakening and a sense of sacredness-connectedness with the cosmos go together... Or does it ? What do you think, Chris, Malcolm, ... ?

Well, I think it should lead in that direction anyways.

I want to offer a point of discussion for those who advocate a kind of mix of high-tech solutions and low-tech living. What makes you think that we will be able to preserve, within the next few decades, (1) the theoretical knowledge and know-how, (2) the industrial capacities and (3) the resources (in terms of rare minerals which are essential for all high-tech things, for instance, minerals which are running out everywhere in the world), which are all key elements in the production of things like chips and screens, etc. ?

All these extremely advanced techs have emerged as the result of a process of complexification started in the past couple of centuries, which itself was based on a superabundance of natural resources. The exponential increase of complexity in terms of social and economic structures, is the main cause for the coming about of the extremely high level of specialization needed for running all these industrial processes. How can we store all this knowledge, have enough people who are specialized enough at so many different levels to transmit all of this interconnected knowledge to the next generation, for instance to allow for something so massively complex as a nuclear plant to function in 70 years from now, if basic things like medication, clean water, electricity and gas, become less easy to come by even in advanced societies ?

What will happen when other countries are in the same situation as us and there is no possibility to get help from china if we're short on respirators ? 

Seriously. This applies to almost everything we are using in our daily lives...

All this is totally dependent on the levels of interconnectivity which exist today. The requisite conditions which have allowed for these complexe webs of causes and conditions to come together are not gonna be present anymore. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Seriously. Who's gonna have a smartphone in fifty years ? 20 ? 100 ? Any bets ?

I don't know, I hope I'm not too unskilful, that all this is neither and scary for people, nor ludicrous-sounding, nor radical... It's not radical, not even far-out... It needs to be taken seriously.

The important idea behind my post is this : If we accept the catastrophes which are coming, we can prepare for them in the best possible way, and perhaps avoid the worst. 

For example : my mother has moved to the countryside at an opportune time, it seems, and I've managed to convince her of the necessity of having a great garden... And so I've started working on her autonomy ! She will at some points get chickens, a bee-hive, there will be the possibility to grow more than enough vegetables to be able to trade things with people around, etc. I'm working on getting them to buy a piece of forest, and to think about what it would be like ot live without electricity ;) ;) This is just one area of action.

After the initial schocks of the realization, a whole world of new possibilities and action opens up, which can be incredibly fun !  In fact, you can reconnect with something incredible. It's only been a few decades that we live like we do now. It has not been a success. People were happy before. People have always lived on massively lower levels of energy-consumption. The notion that we are better off being materially wealthy but impotent in most other domains of existence is a myth. One tiny example : the most advanced forms of agriculture which are now being "invented" and experimented with, are starting to resemble more and more what people were always naturally doing... In another area : all traditional cultures had at the core of their organization, some form of spiritual training aimed at allowing their elites to experience the truths that we are here all endeavouring to attain, in this "underground" place, where we are finding nourishment because our own culture has totally forgotten about truth.

The parenthesis, the mistake, was modernity. We will be fine, and better off. Less is more !

Much love.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 3:32 PM as a reply to Olivier.
 I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Please post references. I would be interested in reading them. I'm daring you to.

I'm reading and digesting your comments. One thing I will say right away is that I think you are underestimating the resiliency of human society and the technology humanity has developed, and you seem to be overestimating the probability of our collapse, at least in terms of timing if not severity. I'm also not sure you're fully accounting for the positives that can and do come with technology. I doubt you'd like to go back to the good old days of not having antibiotics, vaccines and the like, or would you?

I'll explain in more detail but for now, I have to get back to work.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 4:41 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
A more strategic advice from "me" to "me" would maybe be to shut up until you have made yourself a name AND shit happens that illustrate the vulnerability of the economy even for people who are normally protected, and then blurt it out in a laconic way to the right people when it's already obvious. I wouldn't have listened, though, because people were already dying from system failures that could have been prevented, and I just think that is so very unnecessary. 

So I think a key component in navigating the world together on this planet would have to involve better ways of communication that enable people to talk about the sensitive stuff. I don't know how this could be accomplished. Somehow we need to see that we are all in this together, just like Chris said now, and like I said before. As long as people divide themselves and compete for resources, there will always be a lack of resources for some. When it comes to a pandemic, it becomes very obvious how vulnerable that is. And yet, as long as some people take advantage of systems, trusting a system can be risky business. Thus we need to build trust to the extent that nobody ses the need to exploit, and still maintain transparency so that power cannot be exploited. That's a very long-term project. Also, it will cost. Luxury comsumption cannot be part of it, at least not to the extent that people have gotten used to. Advertisement that makes people think that they need all that unnecessary stuff cannot be prioritized. The resources spent on boosting people's cravings for stuff and for travelling all over the world can be put to better use. Basic needs need to be prioritized, and the stuff that actually makes people happy, for real. But this won't work by force, at least not in the long term. Authoritarian governing is no solution. 
Morality is the first training, and morality is the last training. The way I think about about it, first time around it is more about personal action and calm, so you are not twisting yourself up and preventing progress. Second time around, it is more about recognising interconnection and compassion, and skilfully contributing for the benefit of all beings (the whole field of perception together with connected causes and conditions). Maybe you were just too early?

Malcolm
Or maybe I was too late, as we all. These things take time. So many lives could have been spared. I happen to think that is more important than progress of the few. But there is no use dwelling in the past. Better to look at what can be done now. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 4:14 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Much love to you, Olivier!

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 5:23 PM as a reply to Olivier.
I'm totally with you on this! I'm 45. A bit burned out with fighting for the biodiversity in this world that cares only about money. I'm a natural beekeeper. I try to create lots of wild native biodiversity on our little organic farm and local farmers hate me for it. They say "why are you letting those thistles spread seeds all over our fields, you ought to destroy them". They hate thistles and they hate dandelions. Both amazing pollen sources for pollinators. 

Here in Denmark they have already killed their Mother long ago with plows and poisons (our ground water now has pesticides too). Forests are less and less. As from 2016 we don't get any insects on the cars windshield glass! They are gone. So are Swallows.

Please don't let old farts like myself and Chris put you down with our "smart" comments! We had our chance to make a change and we blew it, like so many from our generation. We ought to shut up and listen to the young ones like you and that brave girl from Sweden , Greta. 

My son is now 4 years old and I will do my best to point him towards people like you and Greta and all those young ones who are just sick and tired of all these lies. 

One thing we can't do. We can not hate all those who are destroying our planets biodiversity, as we , meditators, well know the illusion this I-mind is! Most folks blindly believe they are this chattering mind. This mind that says "I want more, I need more, I need to protect myself, insure myself, build walls around myself, control nature, gain more, more". We can't hate them as they indeed are delusional from a Buddhist perspective. Once we see this mind fall off the wagon, how can I ever take it seriously? Most people lack this insight. 

Still, as they remain part of the Matrix, they are threat to the balance. What we need is more young people taking up another life style. Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Our planet is overpopulated with humans as is. Looking at today's politics no one wants to back of from consumerism. US the least. 

All we old farts can do is spread the Dhamma to those who lend their ear. And do it well. Last thing we are to do is lecture young folks like Olivier. We are to lend him our ear and give all the support as their fight will be a tough one. The beast we call Stock Market is their main enemy. Only way to sever its many heads is by utterly not supporting it. 

I salute you Olivier for you bravery. I also wish you to practice well so you can be of even more benefit to the many that come after us. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 5:47 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
nah

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 5:53 PM as a reply to T.
T:
nah


Ah yes, this deserves a smiley emoticon 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 6:04 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
You should see my small patio. I have invited nature to it, and it said hell yeah. Bees love it. Hedgehogs too. 

This really seems to be a generation thing. I'll be 45 this year too and I agree (well, not to all of it - I do want vaccines, because lack of vaccines kills vulnerable people). It might be vanity speaking, but I suspect we are still relatively young in this company. 

And I'm utterly tired of any lecturing of people who are willing to make personal sacrifices to change things for the benefit of all beings, regardless of whether it comes from old farts or rinpoches or nice realized people in denial or nice realized people who think one should practice instead or whatever. 

Anyway, if we wish to keep technology, we'd better get started with cradle-to-cradle production in order to use resources more efficiently and sustainably and avoid toxic waste and health-threatening handlings of toxic waste. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/6/20 6:53 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Papa Che!

I'm in awe. I'll admit it - at first read, I thought this was just an emotionally charged rant. Childish taunting. But on the second read it dawned on my poor old-age addled brain, and an epiphany blossomed. This is actually an amazing modern example of the lost art of..  satire! It's more cutting, better than Swift when at his best. A Modest Proposal, indeed!

You've blown me away, my friend.

<<bows>>

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 2:03 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I would love to see that patio emoticon are you inviting me? emoticon 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 2:06 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 2:58 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I would love to see that patio emoticon are you inviting me? emoticon 


Haha, sure, after Corona. Sweden is not that far away for you. You would be welcome.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 5:30 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Ah Sverige emoticon I lived in Malmö for 8 years. Also had a nice stuga in Ballingslöv. Love Swedish nature! 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 5:38 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. And besides, Christ is not afraid of death; if anything, he seems occasionally suicidal, unless he is able to practice the proper Boolean discipline.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 6:03 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. And besides, Christ is not afraid of death; if anything, he seems occasionally suicidal, unless he is able to practice the proper Boolean discipline.

I know He was not afraid of death as He was the Son of God granted place on His Fathers side. 
It was easy for Christ knowing he had a certain pass to the Kingdom of Heaven. 

emoticon 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 6:11 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. And besides, Christ is not afraid of death; if anything, he seems occasionally suicidal, unless he is able to practice the proper Boolean discipline.

I know He was not afraid of death as He was the Son of God granted place on His Fathers side. 
It was easy for Christ knowing he had a certain pass to the Kingdom of Heaven. 

emoticon 

Typo. Seriously, a fucking typo. I meant CHRIS MARTI is not afraid of death. Jesus was actually scared shitless, and rightfully so, take this fucking cup away from me, indeed, right up until the night before. And no, I do not believe, at this time, that ChrisM is the second coming of Christ, unless he claims to be, at which point i would have to give ithe issue more thought and apply proper rabbinical discernment.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 6:20 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
p.s. Papa Che, please forgive the confusion and my poor proof-readings skills sowing such confusion. I would go back and edit or even delete the post in question, but then it might suggest to everyone else that you and i had gone completely insane. So I will let it stand as a small monument, humbling to the max, to my unskillful means of communication.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 10:06 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I know what you meant emoticon I was just takin' a piss emoticon 

BTW, dear folks I'm off to sit now. I'm sure much of this stuff will creep into me practice if I'm not being mindfull! Noting Aloud here I come! 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 1:29 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. 

He can't be an old fart. That would mean that I am too, and there's no fucking way. We are young, newborn even, and innocent and unfuckupable.

Seriously, look at that babyface (I mean the big one) - that's not the face of an old fart. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/7/20 9:52 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I used to think about other people "no, you're NOT happy...you've just constructed a world that prevents you from seeing it." And, I used to take comfort in the fact that I saw this and they didn't. It was like my secret weapon, that I felt I would be able to somehow fall back on, if shit ever hit the fan. Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/8/20 6:52 AM as a reply to spatial.
Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.

Spatial, my question to you would be -- "Does it matter?"

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/8/20 6:59 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I know what you meant emoticon I was just takin' a piss emoticon 

BTW, dear folks I'm off to sit now. I'm sure much of this stuff will creep into me practice if I'm not being mindfull! Noting Aloud here I come! 
emoticon

Papa Che, you wily young dharma fox, i think that someday, as you sit in flawless meditation, you will note the arising and passing away of a bit of dukkha that in light of anatta is simply major fucking regret that you tipped me off to the use of emjois!!!!!!!!! emoticonemoticonemoticonemoticon

I vow in your honor to only use this incredible siddhi in the service of the salvation of all sentient beings. emoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/8/20 8:34 AM as a reply to spatial.
spatial:
I used to think about other people "no, you're NOT happy...you've just constructed a world that prevents you from seeing it." And, I used to take comfort in the fact that I saw this and they didn't. It was like my secret weapon, that I felt I would be able to somehow fall back on, if shit ever hit the fan. Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.

Yeps! You screwed! 


emoticon 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/8/20 8:36 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Oh stop it Chris.  See what you did now; you made this childish old fart blush. 


Papa Che, you're not necessarily a childish old fart. You may be, per the wisdom of Linda, a rinpoche, or a nice realized person in denial or a nice realized person who thinks one should practice instead, or whatever. She didn't say, because she is probably a nice realized person, but you may also be a realized asshole, of course. 

He can't be an old fart. That would mean that I am too, and there's no fucking way. We are young, newborn even, and innocent and unfuckupable.

Seriously, look at that babyface (I mean the big one) - that's not the face of an old fart. 

That photo if me is 4 years old !!! 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/8/20 8:38 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
I know what you meant emoticon I was just takin' a piss emoticon 

BTW, dear folks I'm off to sit now. I'm sure much of this stuff will creep into me practice if I'm not being mindfull! Noting Aloud here I come! 
emoticon

Papa Che, you wily young dharma fox, i think that someday, as you sit in flawless meditation, you will note the arising and passing away of a bit of dukkha that in light of anatta is simply major fucking regret that you tipped me off to the use of emjois!!!!!!!!! emoticonemoticonemoticonemoticon

I vow in your honor to only use this incredible siddhi in the service of the salvation of all sentient beings. emoticon

You are a darling Tim emoticon 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/8/20 9:04 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Now, I'm worried that I won't even have that.

Spatial, my question to you would be -- "Does it matter?"


I told that story partially as a joke, and partially because there is something in me that does feel that way now and then. But at the moment, I'm not able to connect with it, so for now, I guess it doesn't matter emoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/9/20 2:36 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
 I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Please post references. I would be interested in reading them. I'm daring you to.

I'm reading and digesting your comments. One thing I will say right away is that I think you are underestimating the resiliency of human society and the technology humanity has developed, and you seem to be overestimating the probability of our collapse, at least in terms of timing if not severity. I'm also not sure you're fully accounting for the positives that can and do come with technology. I doubt you'd like to go back to the good old days of not having antibiotics, vaccines and the like, or would you?

I'll explain in more detail but for now, I have to get back to work.


Hi Chris,

I came to understand that, much like the dharma, there is nothing I could say right now that would take someone to where I am in just one forum post. It's just one of those topics that recquires a lot of reading, learning, accepting, digesting, evolving, opening up, reading, learning, etc.

It's not possible for someone to quickly come to a full appreciation of this situation I'm describing.

It was a long process for me and I can't reasonably expect that someone who is not willing, or not in a position to engage themselves seriously in trying to understand the bigger picture, could come to share my views.

So I decided to keep it simple, after much writing and pondering...

In short, get this book : https://www.wiley.com/en-us/How+Everything+Can+Collapse%3A+A+Manual+for+our+Times-p-9781509541386

It's a huge slap in the face, be warned... For me at least. It contains all the information you need, being a very fact and quantitative oriented discussion, the result of years of work, which draws on hundreds of references, scientific papers, articles, books. It's pretty complex, technical and heavy (and toxic), but I think you have some scientific background, and since this is, to me anyways, the definitive reference, I think that's what one who can handle it should go for.

It is extremely solid, and I would be amazed if you disagreed with say, even 10 percent of it. Even if you did, I doubt that this would be enough to change the general picture. If however you think it's on the whole an over or under estimation of things, or fails to see such and such ... Amazing !!! come back to explain that to me, please ! At least it will be a discussion where we would share a lot of common ground.

The thing about loss of information and knowledge resulting from decomplexification processes of societies, or degrowth, comes from that book, pp. 198 et seq from the french edition.

For some background, the author is a biologist specialized in complex systems who has for instance worked for the european parliament on tasks such as evaluating food safety in europe... Another of his published books, fun read too.

Alternatively one might start with this article as an apéritif (but although it's a serious academic work, it lacks the unshakeably solid feeling that the other one leaves you with) : https://mahb.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/deepadaptation.pdf

There you go emoticon I hope you do read it.

Cheers

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/9/20 3:13 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Thank you for the references, Oliver.

Believe it or not, I've read the IFLAS Deep Adaptation paper, and some time ago. I do follow these things. I don't look at the world with rose-colored glasses but I don't use blackout shades, either. I'm extremely concerned about climate change and I think we are well past the point from which we can get away without some very serious effects. We're now into adapting to the coming changes, not preventing them. I'm just not at all sure that we face a high probability of the collapse of civilization, but even with a low probability of occurrence, it's something to think about and have contingency plans for.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/9/20 3:24 PM as a reply to Olivier.
If anyone does wish to read How Everything Can Collapse, I recommend NOT going through Wiley to purchase. Wiley's Vitalsource Bookshelf is the work of the devil. It has been carefully crafted by legions of demons to erode our humanity.  iTunes is better option, and I'm sure there are others.

Malcolm

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/9/20 4:00 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Curious : Oh, thank you for that ! I'd never heard of that site, I just took the first link which wasn't amazon and put a disclaimer in my original post which I accidentally deleted.

Chris : Right, maybe that won't be such a slap in the face for you as it was for me then. I suspect I also read this at a special time in my life, after a long retreat, etc., and so it was particularly impactful for my extremely open awareness. But yeah, I'll be interested in what you think. And just one thing : the name is Oliv i er ;)

Best wishes gentlemen

Edited

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/10/20 7:39 AM as a reply to Olivier.
And just one thing : the name is Oliv i er ;)

Yeah, sorry about that. Nasty typo.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
4/10/20 8:28 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm totally with you on this! I'm 45. A bit burned out with fighting for the biodiversity in this world that cares only about money. I'm a natural beekeeper. I try to create lots of wild native biodiversity on our little organic farm and local farmers hate me for it. They say "why are you letting those thistles spread seeds all over our fields, you ought to destroy them". They hate thistles and they hate dandelions. Both amazing pollen sources for pollinators. 

Here in Denmark they have already killed their Mother long ago with plows and poisons (our ground water now has pesticides too). Forests are less and less. As from 2016 we don't get any insects on the cars windshield glass! They are gone. So are Swallows.

Please don't let old farts like myself and Chris put you down with our "smart" comments! We had our chance to make a change and we blew it, like so many from our generation. We ought to shut up and listen to the young ones like you and that brave girl from Sweden , Greta. 

My son is now 4 years old and I will do my best to point him towards people like you and Greta and all those young ones who are just sick and tired of all these lies. 

One thing we can't do. We can not hate all those who are destroying our planets biodiversity, as we , meditators, well know the illusion this I-mind is! Most folks blindly believe they are this chattering mind. This mind that says "I want more, I need more, I need to protect myself, insure myself, build walls around myself, control nature, gain more, more". We can't hate them as they indeed are delusional from a Buddhist perspective. Once we see this mind fall off the wagon, how can I ever take it seriously? Most people lack this insight. 

Still, as they remain part of the Matrix, they are threat to the balance. What we need is more young people taking up another life style. Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Our planet is overpopulated with humans as is. Looking at today's politics no one wants to back of from consumerism. US the least. 

All we old farts can do is spread the Dhamma to those who lend their ear. And do it well. Last thing we are to do is lecture young folks like Olivier. We are to lend him our ear and give all the support as their fight will be a tough one. The beast we call Stock Market is their main enemy. Only way to sever its many heads is by utterly not supporting it. 

I salute you Olivier for you bravery. I also wish you to practice well so you can be of even more benefit to the many that come after us. 

Hi Papa Che ! 

Thank you for your niceness, though I'm not doing anything very brave to be honest ! It's kind of a minimum in my view ... But you're right, most people don't want...
I think generations should not fight each other either, and I don't feel like I'm in a position to lecture people on their behavior, but I do see that most people just can't help it for reasons which often makes it hard to hate them ^^ 

Although that is definitely an area of work : how to face all this toxic stuff and darkness with a bright perspective and compassion ? I find it difficult sometimes. The notion that, like you say, this could have been prevented pretty easily, can trigger some... contempt, or ill-will and such. Sure, this is true about anything, as soon as you start to look at what seems wrong about the world and people's behavior, but the magnitude of the current destruction of life in all its forms is just so comically disproportionate, nd its causes so pathetic... The balance between acceptance and enough revolt that serious action will be taken, is very tricky, I find... What do you reckon ?

Anyways, cheers my friend.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/11/20 4:36 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Nice documentary, called Planet of the humans, which explains why

-"renewable energies" are neither renewable nor clean
-how the notion that future technological inventions are gonna save us is just gonna make things more terrible
-have only watched the first 30 min so far, so, probably other intersting things emoticon

Although the video title in this link is in french, the video is in english : Here

Edited as I watch : Hilariously, it seems that the increased use of "clean energies" this past decades corresponds to the sharpest rise in fossil fuel consumption ever !!

Almost as hilarious is the fact that : solar panels are built from coal. They melt coal and quartz at a very high temp, using coal furnaces, for the silicium.

A quote : "The problem with all of these materials, is that it takes a incredible amount of energy to mine and process all of the materials that go into building something like this ["clean" energy power plants]. You use more fossil fuels to do this than you get benefit from it. You would have been better off just burning the fossil fuels in the first place instead of playing pretend. [...] This relies on the most toxic and industrial processes that we'e ever created. "

Otherwise, I wanted to link this Rob Burbea talk from 2011, called The meditator as revolutionary, where he suggests that SE could be defined as the willingness to enter into civil disobedience to try to avoid impending doom emoticon A funny and thought-provoking idea : There

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 3:27 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
Chris Marti:
 I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but there are serious studies of this loss of knowledge and know-how which is probably inevitable by now. I can dig up for references if anyone dares me.. *wink wink*

Please post references. I would be interested in reading them. I'm daring you to.

I'm reading and digesting your comments. One thing I will say right away is that I think you are underestimating the resiliency of human society and the technology humanity has developed, and you seem to be overestimating the probability of our collapse, at least in terms of timing if not severity. I'm also not sure you're fully accounting for the positives that can and do come with technology. I doubt you'd like to go back to the good old days of not having antibiotics, vaccines and the like, or would you?

I'll explain in more detail but for now, I have to get back to work.


Hi Chris,

I came to understand that, much like the dharma, there is nothing I could say right now that would take someone to where I am in just one forum post. It's just one of those topics that recquires a lot of reading, learning, accepting, digesting, evolving, opening up, reading, learning, etc.

It's not possible for someone to quickly come to a full appreciation of this situation I'm describing.

It was a long process for me and I can't reasonably expect that someone who is not willing, or not in a position to engage themselves seriously in trying to understand the bigger picture, could come to share my views.

So I decided to keep it simple, after much writing and pondering...

In short, get this book : https://www.wiley.com/en-us/How+Everything+Can+Collapse%3A+A+Manual+for+our+Times-p-9781509541386

It's a huge slap in the face, be warned... For me at least. It contains all the information you need, being a very fact and quantitative oriented discussion, the result of years of work, which draws on hundreds of references, scientific papers, articles, books. It's pretty complex, technical and heavy (and toxic), but I think you have some scientific background, and since this is, to me anyways, the definitive reference, I think that's what one who can handle it should go for.

It is extremely solid, and I would be amazed if you disagreed with say, even 10 percent of it. Even if you did, I doubt that this would be enough to change the general picture. If however you think it's on the whole an over or under estimation of things, or fails to see such and such ... Amazing !!! come back to explain that to me, please ! At least it will be a discussion where we would share a lot of common ground.

The thing about loss of information and knowledge resulting from decomplexification processes of societies, or degrowth, comes from that book, pp. 198 et seq from the french edition.

For some background, the author is a biologist specialized in complex systems who has for instance worked for the european parliament on tasks such as evaluating food safety in europe... Another of his published books, fun read too.

Alternatively one might start with this article as an apéritif (but although it's a serious academic work, it lacks the unshakeably solid feeling that the other one leaves you with) : https://mahb.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/deepadaptation.pdf

There you go emoticon I hope you do read it.

Cheers

okay, the book is not yet released! how did you read it? i have pre-ordered it.

i am printing out the stanford article. i am listening to Planète des humains ou Comment le capitalisme a absorbé l'écologie . You are a dangerous man. Est-il vrai que vous êtes très jeune, comme semblait le dire Papa Che?

You've got your seminar here, Olivier,

and Chris has an extraordinary fruit from the seed he planted in this thread.

Let's do this education properly, Professor. Yes?

(edit) Olivier, my email is tim_farrington@msn.com   I would be most grateful if you would write to me there.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 3:13 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm totally with you on this! I'm 45. A bit burned out with fighting for the biodiversity in this world that cares only about money. I'm a natural beekeeper. I try to create lots of wild native biodiversity on our little organic farm and local farmers hate me for it. They say "why are you letting those thistles spread seeds all over our fields, you ought to destroy them". They hate thistles and they hate dandelions. Both amazing pollen sources for pollinators. 

Here in Denmark they have already killed their Mother long ago with plows and poisons (our ground water now has pesticides too). Forests are less and less. As from 2016 we don't get any insects on the cars windshield glass! They are gone. So are Swallows.

Please don't let old farts like myself and Chris put you down with our "smart" comments! We had our chance to make a change and we blew it, like so many from our generation. We ought to shut up and listen to the young ones like you and that brave girl from Sweden , Greta. 

My son is now 4 years old and I will do my best to point him towards people like you and Greta and all those young ones who are just sick and tired of all these lies. 

One thing we can't do. We can not hate all those who are destroying our planets biodiversity, as we , meditators, well know the illusion this I-mind is! Most folks blindly believe they are this chattering mind. This mind that says "I want more, I need more, I need to protect myself, insure myself, build walls around myself, control nature, gain more, more". We can't hate them as they indeed are delusional from a Buddhist perspective. Once we see this mind fall off the wagon, how can I ever take it seriously? Most people lack this insight. 

Still, as they remain part of the Matrix, they are threat to the balance. What we need is more young people taking up another life style. Yes, even without the vaccines Chris. Do you fear death emoticon Do you desire a Covid Vaccine? I say to hell with it. 

Our planet is overpopulated with humans as is. Looking at today's politics no one wants to back of from consumerism. US the least. 

All we old farts can do is spread the Dhamma to those who lend their ear. And do it well. Last thing we are to do is lecture young folks like Olivier. We are to lend him our ear and give all the support as their fight will be a tough one. The beast we call Stock Market is their main enemy. Only way to sever its many heads is by utterly not supporting it. 

I salute you Olivier for you bravery. I also wish you to practice well so you can be of even more benefit to the many that come after us. 

Hi Papa Che ! 

Thank you for your niceness, though I'm not doing anything very brave to be honest ! It's kind of a minimum in my view ... But you're right, most people don't want...
I think generations should not fight each other either, and I don't feel like I'm in a position to lecture people on their behavior, but I do see that most people just can't help it for reasons which often makes it hard to hate them ^^ 

Although that is definitely an area of work : how to face all this toxic stuff and darkness with a bright perspective and compassion ? I find it difficult sometimes. The notion that, like you say, this could have been prevented pretty easily, can trigger some... contempt, or ill-will and such. Sure, this is true about anything, as soon as you start to look at what seems wrong about the world and people's behavior, but the magnitude of the current destruction of life in all its forms is just so comically disproportionate, nd its causes so pathetic... The balance between acceptance and enough revolt that serious action will be taken, is very tricky, I find... What do you reckon ?

Anyways, cheers my friend.
amen, Papa Che. This guy's got the conn, here.
Olivier
The balance between acceptance and enough revolt that serious action will be taken, is very tricky, I find... What do you reckon ?
i reckon that we need to take the leap here. I'm in. The real question now is to listen to the state of the art here, which is you. So, what do you reckon, mon ami.

love, tim

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 7:53 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier --

What do you think the ongoing pandemic will do to the environment (short-term), and to the long-term effort to stave off environmental disaster? Will it accelerate our decline or could the pandemic become the fulcrum leveraging us to a better future? It seems to me this is a Black Swan that comes along only every so often, and that it can be used for good or for ill, depending.

Thoughts?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 10:25 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Ok, I give up for now, this is the third time the system eats my message... Will come back...

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 10:34 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:

Really, this is how things always are, though there is now a more compelling narrative. The human story includes death, and it can happen at any time. In the middle of this there could be some other disaster that puts to shame the wake of this virus. Who knows? Always practice like your life depends on it. In some ways it does. The opportunity for compassion is omnipresent and boundless. All resistance to how things are is an opportunity for inquiry. In my experience, the dharmakaya points back at it its own impermanence/unity all of the time, in every facet, in every moment. I'm ready to show up for whatever that is. 

I'm with you: Bring it on.

So this is indicative of my recent conundrum whether to try and remember what my "big issue" was last night and continue from there or let the newness of the day really sink in. So for me, uncharted territory is a choice.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 11:36 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Unable to post!

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 11:51 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
What I said about this posting issue in another topic just now, to Olivier:

 Is there a technique for getting it back ? 

Not as far as I can tell, and this happens to me 
a lot, too, In fact, it just happened as I posted this reply.

What I do:

1) Compose posts in Word and paste them here
2) Compose posts here but save them every so often in the clipboard to preserve them

That's all I can suggest.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/12/20 2:15 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Hi Olivier,
I'd differ here -- I don't think the documentary you mention
made a cogent case against renewables. All it proves is that the current
capitalist system along with renewables has not worked. True solar
energy requires other raw materials and coal or other fossils
to make but if most of the  energy were renewable (solar for example), we
 would likely be in a much better place -- solar cells last decently long
enough. This has not been possible, and I like to believe, this has
to do with the system not renewables. Sure, the resources needed to make
the renewables will run out too at some point -- so in that sense, nothing
is renewable.

That said (and maybe this is your point),
I do like to believe that preventing global warming is the wrong
question. It's another self-centered questions we humans ask, now that we
see ourselves on the edge of destruction. The right question is: how to live
in harmony with the planet and other species -- and how to live in a way to
kill as little as possible. We humans are involved in mass killing currently
-- the current anthropocene is supposed to have started thousands of years
ago -- when humans started large scale deforestation in order to achieve the
ease of cultivation and settling down. Then came industrial revolution which
gave the anthropocene another big push. That global warming goes away --
should be a result of living in harmony with other species -- not the goal
-- so is my not so humble opinion.

I like the thought about SE and revolutionaries. Though what does SE stand for?
Is it fruition? From other posts on DhO, I gather it comes after EQ -- thus my
guess that it is fruition.

Mike.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/13/20 4:30 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
Ok, I give up for now, this is the third time the system eats my message... Will come back...
Olivier, your poor tormented genius: discipline, discipline, discipline. Suck it up, compose on your own word processing, save, and then cut and paste. Just fucking quit bitching and do it, the loss of your posts hurts us all.

“This article may contribute to future work on sustainable management and policy as much by subtraction as by addition. By that I mean the implication is for you to take a time to step back, to consider ‘what if’ the analysis in these pages is true, to allow yourself to grieve, and to overcome the typical fears we all have, to fond meaning in new ways of being and acting. That may be in the fields of academia or management--- or could be in some other field that this realization leads you to.”
 
“Deep Adaptation: A Map for Navigating Climate Tragedy” by Prof. Jem Bendell, PhD

love, tim

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/14/20 5:54 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Olivier --

What do you think the ongoing pandemic will do to the environment (short-term), and to the long-term effort to stave off environmental disaster? Will it accelerate our decline or could the pandemic become the fulcrum leveraging us to a better future? It seems to me this is a Black Swan that comes along only every so often, and that it can be used for good or for ill, depending.

Thoughts?
Well I agree !

I think, though, we should remember that this isn't that big of a deal compared to what awaits us, without wanting to be alarmist.

It should be put into perspective. In the sixties there was an episode of Hong-Kong flu, which killed over 30 000 people in france - nobody made a big deal out of it. Every year, 600 000 people die in france - 27 000 have died of corona so far. The leading causes of mortality except natural death in the world are, from what I gather : air pollution, tobacco smoke, alcohol consumption, obesity, malnutrition. 

I'm no expert on any of those things, but have been listening and reading a lot. Right now obviously, environmentally speaking, things have been bette during the economic stop, you can tell : I see a bunch more birds in the sky than usual, and other things like that, more insects, etc. It's very nice.

In the long-term, I don't think the people who have interests in growth will turn away from that easily. We should expect some kinds of moves which will try to capitalize on the "shock", I have no idea how exactly, but they are gonna try. One small example : the EU has just signed a neo-liberal trade agreement with mexico while everybody is looking in the other direction.

The fact that everyone is talking about "relance", about getting things back to "normal", is a tell... The people in power have been elected, or have gotten there, by internalizing a competitive and profit driven ideology. Do people usually change quickly ? I don't know... The institutions in place have been built according to certain world-views and certain .. hm .. attitudes ?

Here in France, there are many many voices being heard saying that we should change something about the system, relocalize the entirety of our productions for instance. In the major newspapers, grous of famous people are signing collective articles saying : let's not go back ! Let's stave off environmental catastrophy ! etc.

These things are being heard. But I really think that individuals have a huge role to play here, because, what are you gonna do, huge lobbies have more influence than environmentalists. And lobbies won't stop lobbying.

My position is : I hope this lasts long enough to deal a hard enough blow that things are actually gonna HAVE to change. I don't know what that would mean exactly, but something like a heart attack to the world economy which produces systemic failure of some kind. Hoping that it won't be too hard on people. In any case, it would be less intense than nothing happening at all.

Anyways, sorry but I don't have much of an idea what will happen.

Here's an interview of a VERY bearded Noam Chomsky about this, it puts thigns in perspective, and as always he has a refreshing take on the subject, including fun facts like "we knew that there would be a coronavirus outbreak years ago" emoticonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-N3In2rLI4

Cheers my friends,

Olivier

ps : Just wanted to add something : in any case, I think it's a good time to reflect, on the notion for instance that food shortages are extremely likely to happen in many place at some point, given the interconnectivity of the global system, and so, if you can garden, maybe start honing your skills just in case emoticon If everybody does it, we're golden

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/14/20 6:04 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
[quote=Tim Farrington
]
okay, the book is not yet released! how did you read it? i have pre-ordered it.

i am printing out the stanford article. i am listening to Planète des humains ou Comment le capitalisme a absorbé l'écologie . You are a dangerous man. Est-il vrai que vous êtes très jeune, comme semblait le dire Papa Che?

You've got your seminar here, Olivier,

and Chris has an extraordinary fruit from the seed he planted in this thread.

Let's do this education properly, Professor. Yes?

(edit) Olivier, my email is tim_farrington@msn.com   I would be most grateful if you would write to me there.


Sorry about that, I just looked up if there was en english version and posted the first link... perhaps you could get it in french ?

Otherwise, I remember he references a book by Clive Hamilton, Requiem for the human species, or something like that, which is in english and probably shares a lot of content.

Yes I'm almost a kid you could say, being 26 !

I've recently been reproached for my professoral tone by a friend, so, I feel like I should get a grip on that a bit...

Anyways, I don't know, I think with all this you've got a lot on your plate already my friend !

Perhaps another recommentdation from Burbea would interest you, perhaps you know it already, a book by James Hillman called We've had a hundred years of psychotherapy and the world is getting worse. It's very thought-provoking.

Honestly man, we're all in this together, I have, and no one else has, the solutions ! The only things I know for sure, for me at least is that : industrial economies are gonna crash sooner or later ; whether they take everything down with them or not, is a question... ; in the mean time, we can try to wean ourselves off it as much as possible, to (1) avoid prolonging its life expectency (spelling) ; (2) be resilient when conventional supply chains start breaking (3) not participate in the mass extermination of life, and if possible (4) contribute to protecting and restoring life. In fact there are so many so many possibilities open for us ! 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/14/20 6:15 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Hi Olivier,
I'd differ here -- I don't think the documentary you mention
made a cogent case against renewables. All it proves is that the current
capitalist system along with renewables has not worked. True solar
energy requires other raw materials and coal or other fossils
to make but if most of the  energy were renewable (solar for example), we
 would likely be in a much better place -- solar cells last decently long
enough. This has not been possible, and I like to believe, this has
to do with the system not renewables. Sure, the resources needed to make
the renewables will run out too at some point -- so in that sense, nothing
is renewable.

That said (and maybe this is your point),
I do like to believe that preventing global warming is the wrong
question. It's another self-centered questions we humans ask, now that we
see ourselves on the edge of destruction. The right question is: how to live
in harmony with the planet and other species -- and how to live in a way to
kill as little as possible. We humans are involved in mass killing currently
-- the current anthropocene is supposed to have started thousands of years
ago -- when humans started large scale deforestation in order to achieve the
ease of cultivation and settling down. Then came industrial revolution which
gave the anthropocene another big push. That global warming goes away --
should be a result of living in harmony with other species -- not the goal
-- so is my not so humble opinion.

I like the thought about SE and revolutionaries. Though what does SE stand for?
Is it fruition? From other posts on DhO, I gather it comes after EQ -- thus my
guess that it is fruition.

Mike.
SE is stream entry = fruition yes, in the way we think about it hear, others differ, and in fact so many opinions exist that probably you could give any definition, which is what Burbea is doing, I guess jokingly.

Yeah, I guess shifting perspective to a positive version of the story could be helpful, nice.

About your renewables paragraph, I mean, yes there are renewables, and the sun is renewable. Plants already exist, we don't have to go looking very far.

But, a question : if you can come up with a solution in three seconds while responding to me here, why has no one else enacted it already ? If they had actual renewables, they would have made and commercialized them already. Why ? Because their motivation is profit. It's a promess of more profit for them if society keeps functioning than if it doesn't. They know that. 

We have all the solutions : stop overconsuming. Live in harmony with the natural world, as you suggest.

Will we do it ? Will we reorganize our lives drastically to cut off by 90 percent you energy consumption ? That is the minimum needed emoticon emoticon

Hey, I just thought of an interesting read for anyone interested, kind of on this topic : it's "Touch the earth" by T C Mc Luhan (from the top of my head). It's an anthology of writings from native americans. It's amazing, they just knew it was gonna happen, because they had a different relationship with other living beings.

RE: Uncharted Territory
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5/14/20 11:36 PM as a reply to Olivier.
For one, it did not take me 3 seconds and secondly, I've not provided any solution. This is a question I've thought about on and off for years and I  had already seen this documentary before you mentioning it.

For why is it difficult to change anything: The reason is the same as 1) At an individual level -- why we humans have difficulty changing bad habits? , and 2) at a system level: why bad capitalist systems finally just end up pandering to the rich without much concern for society? This is as regards why we've not been able to implement renewables properly. Or so is my guess. And the situation is definitely more complicated. Or maybe it is just as simple as that we humans have a shelf-life. I'm no authority.

As regards the anthropocene started 1000's of years ago I don't have any deep thoughts on how to go back to the pre-deforestation kind of life-style, and whether it is a good thing [[Edit: Meaning, I personally would like to believe that it's a good thing, but much more research & understanding is needed I think in order to get to an understanding of how to structure a healthy society]]

RE: Uncharted Territory
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5/15/20 6:41 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
For one, it did not take me 3 seconds and secondly, I've not provided any solution. This is a question I've thought about on and off for years and I  had already seen this documentary before you mentioning it.

What I assumed you were saying was that there was a way to produce (1) let's say the same amount of total energy (E) as we are needing right now with our current lifestyles, which can actually be given a pretty accurate number (2) but to have E replaced by sustainable and non polluting energy sources, and somehow I heard in what you were saying that something like solar cells could be a good candidate in your view. Sorry if I was mistaken !

In any case just to clarify what I mean : from what I've read from more informed people than I, this is simply wishful thinking emoticon

As I understand it, the two things we have in front of us is (a) Too Many People (b) Too Much Resources Being Used Per Capita. It seems very complicated for humans to change (b), as you say... As for (a), well, it's a bit taboo, although, see this (I'm sure you know this paper but perhaps some others here don't) :  World scientists' second warning to humanity [url=]https://watermark.silverchair.com/bix125.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAoAwggJ8BgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJtMIICaQIBADCCAmIGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMXk1NJ33uXnFoGUMbAgEQgIICM0oGPQQmKMVyjE60gZ_HyWuWEi4vayNRtg-h2--vjE4dPdeCpsNRRnp0rk5S7SXZzLJjAH0hLJ7zoYNhVolTFJj1TfaMAR4FVQOpuiocOGu2JJy8FwIkEf2wpmVmdfYndJhIsJPM81mji_BDZJo7xI-IdvtjyqkIgJAB3CMkidQ84BYsfL9Pe1rgX0kMSwNAWoBTgd9Ry7BjEcv2hlByr2UM0DhQ6CdQHXr9kdDZ1usUpdRpFsqaOL7DvkKhJvciLka5yMvFTaPe3LOxAsZkpuwSLOMp7rV6K15lMWltlf6pUxJVyHreQGWd39aTn0TWj8wQ8EhHp-HbwniY93qYV8GUYLqlkZf3Bk0l6zESrn-20kmEsv2FpYsDCY7AxUH-z9Q4Ix33pqpG-9Ra2-IltueNS7Yx6VfOULFjcyDMk_2pAmfk9RQGtyo7vXqpRP915tRXBX4Z-iePlCLgspTKjBa59ouEi7LemGf_Rb96Mihf6X84cqGVH6qQGTZaJxM1jIdkZtj9vquskYZX-NJ2-UaH1W9dRULkobcNzi1oWgVDXYm6sg5vgyittYzEbyq0U62BtLS7I7FzhoOj3JQyXD6cjxGmCTpsvOuxlpFypdmzHtJcfQfQg6WFmIIJq6E8dk4QK_s0wgA9SN_chlJ0TVvMow1kV_f2GIAEi9sON76uh1Cfm-PukGXZ_lOaCbCyKQwg8IjxJ-qDm6-SpLKdM8IFi_obc7ZLt3NZkkwTG-Ftpc3F

(Sorry I can't manage to reduce the link)

My personal intuition regarding this, Mike, is that collectively embodying a sense of sacredness of existence and nature would be the most profound and perhaps only viable solution to this.
And that we would have much to learn from native peoples.

I guess this is a bit like what you meant when you said that trying to mitigate climate change is the wrong way to look at it, but that what we are trying to do is save life and become aware of the sacredness of life and all life forms ? I agree with you fully on that... As if focusing on external factors is not the key...

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5/15/20 7:06 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Yeah, that's sort of what I meant, the points 1) and 2) you mention. Just that it was an opinion -- not a solution. Maybe we are just playing with words here. The point  I was really making was that the documentary definitely is not making a cogent point that renewables won't work. Regarding other sources you mention, I don't know. There are people I trust who seem to think that solar is a good idea. But yes, I don't know enough to say this with any certainty.

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5/15/20 7:51 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Sure, the documentary by itself is not enough. There are other sources of info though ;(

Just in terms of , what's it called, energy return units ? The ratio of energy put in to energy got out off of an energy source. WHen you're building an energy source, you have to put in energy to make that device, first, right ? You can quantify that.

The numbers i'l quote are from memory, but you can find all this in the first book I referenced to chris (once it's translated...).
So oil, beginning of the 20th century, had a ratio of 100:1 or something like that. Put in one unit of energy get 100 back. Very good.

Nowadays, non-conventional oils have a ratio of 1.8:1. 

It's soon gonna become more energy-consuming to extract fossil fuels, than energy producing. At 1:1 you just have to stop because it is useless.

Alternative energy sources seem to have much lower efficiency than fossil fuels, than the ratio that has been necessary in order to build the current system. For instance, I think at max capacity, wind mills have an energy return of 18:1, which is rather good.

But it has been estimated that : there is not enough fossil fuels over the 1:1 ratio left on earth in order to produce enough alternative energy sources with lower efficiency rates like wind mills and solar that would cover up current needs. That's a bit convoluted but wrap your head around it....

It takes energy to produce a windmill, to produce solar cells, to produce whatever. To produce (E) energy, you need X windmills. Currently, (E), the global energy consumption, is produced through a mix of energy sources, mainly fossil. If we were to want to replace all energy sources by "renewables" to produce clean (E), there is not enough energy from fossil fuels left on earth to produce and renew X windmills, while still producing (E) in the intermediary period where we are trying to build the X wind mills, it seems. Just being schematic ...

And, of course, the industrial chains, mining, transport, mineral processing/chemistry/etc., the machines which produce the machines which produce solar cells, all of this is ultimately relying on fossil fuels. The documentary had the merit of showing that pretty well. Sure, you can create a net zero emission electric car : awesome. But to build the car parts you have used fossil fuels. How much ? It turns out, perhaps more than you would have for a normal car. Etc.

I'm not making any of this up, and there is a counter-argument to any kind of solution that we could imagine, to any that I've been able to come up with anyways... 

This kind of saturation and increasing scarcity of resources is the case in most domains : rare metals needed for virtually all technology are simply running out. Running out. 

Today a modern fisherman, equipped with gps tracking technology and radars and whatnot, things which were unthinkable a couple of generations ago, are still getting like, something of the order of magnitude of 10 times less catch than two generations ago.

There is no turning away from the fact that (E) is not gonna be available anymore, soon. It's a bit like death... some day, you know... we are not infinite. 

Refusing that, by dreaming up unthought of solutions for the future, is unrealistic and dangerous. It provides the incentive to deny our situation, and to further the destruction of life to "temporarily" meet our energy needs, until we find a way to have a clean source for that.

It's impossible ! It must be said firmly.

A finite world, with finite resources, cannot support infinite growth - it is just common sense.

I think we should collectively acknoledge that, grieve, and then start being responsible !

If we accept catastrophe, that is how we will be able to avert it.

--

To go back on the covid -19 thing : just found this, thought I'd share : https://forge.medium.com/prepare-for-the-ultimate-gaslighting-6a8ce3f0a0e0

Food security :
https://www.scientistswarning.org/coronavirus-food-security-and-sustainability-in-a-just-in-time-global-supply-chain/

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5/15/20 7:55 AM as a reply to Olivier.
I don't see your argument. (Not saying you're wrong -- just that I don't see it).
Let's say we're able to get to some kind of population stabilization in say some 10's of years.
We're able to get to a point where there is enough solar so that everything is being powered using solar & the rest of the solar cell production can be carried out using the existing solar + raw materials used to make solar.
Then, how is this not sustainable for the amount of the time the raw materials used to make solar panels exist?
[[there is of course the energy of storing solar -- let's assume we're able to get around that somehow]] 
True, finite resources can't produce infinite production but we don't need infinite production if population stabilizes and people don't want infinite amount of things for themselves.

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5/15/20 7:59 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
My opinion is that we need to start to redefine "wealth" to mean less about material possessions and amassing huge sums of money and to mean more about personal well-being, sustainable societies, and the well-being, on average, of every human on this planet.

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5/15/20 8:09 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yes please. This is the dream. 

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5/15/20 8:12 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'd agree -- with the difference that we should not be worried just about humans but about all species.

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5/15/20 8:15 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
That's a good fix to what I said.

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5/15/20 9:00 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
I don't see your argument. (Not saying you're wrong -- just that I don't see it). What do you mean ? My argument is that there is no possibility of producing (E) through solar energy for instance.
Let's say we're able to get to some kind of population stabilization in say some 10's of years.
We're able to get to a point where there is enough solar so that everything is being powered using solar I just showed how this is not possible... & the rest of the solar cell production can be carried out using the existing solar + raw materials used to make solar.
Then, how is this not sustainable for the amount of the time the raw materials used to make solar panels exist?
[[there is of course the energy of storing solar -- let's assume we're able to get around that somehow]] 
True, finite resources can't produce infinite production but we don't need infinite production if population stabilizes and people don't want infinite amount of things for themselves.
Honestly, I'm starting to feel like you have an agenda, Mike. I'm providing realisitc information with sources and you keep using the same but-if-we-find-a-magical-solution thinking and disregarding my arguments, or saying you don't see them, and using that as a way to push forward a kind of "clean growth" or "clean business as usual" POV. 

Maybe someone has some money invested in solar cells ? *wink wink wink* 

Or, perhaps, you just misunderstood and in that case, I'll be happy to clarify anything ?

We do not have tens of years my friend. We have a couple of years to cut off emissions by 86 percents.

Said in the spirit of gentle poking, not harshness.

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5/15/20 9:10 AM as a reply to Olivier.
No agenda. I don't have any money in solar or renewable energy.

I don't see how the same amount of energy E cannot be produced with solar. Of course, this would need a huge infrastructure over-haul -- and that in my opinion, is the bottle-neck, not solar per say.

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5/15/20 9:43 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Because the amount of energy that would be needed to produce this much solar is not available.

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5/15/20 9:46 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Prove it.

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5/15/20 9:50 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
No agenda. I don't have any money in solar or renewable energy.

I don't see how the same amount of energy E cannot be produced with solar. Of course, this would need a huge infrastructure over-haul -- and that in my opinion, is the bottle-neck, not solar per say.
Mike, most simply put, to produce solar cells requires a vast amount of coal or other non-renewalbles in itself. The pure quartz (not cheap itself) misy be heated to 4000 degrees to produce many elements of solar panels. By the time you've spent the coal to make the cell, you'd have been better off to have used the coal directly to make electricity in the first place. Cells are not immortal, too: you will never be free of the requirement aof making new cells, on the firm invisible foundation of cheap, available coal, which is disappearing under the feet o solar, and will take solar down with it and the rest of civilization as we know it when that coal well runs dry.

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5/15/20 9:53 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Show me the numbers.

Let's say, to start with, show me the numbers for:

1. How much energy is needed to produce a solar cell.
2. How long is the solar cell expected to last.
3. How much energy is expected to be produced out of the solar cell during the time period that it lasts.

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5/15/20 10:02 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Show me the numbers.

Let's say, to start with, show me the numbers for:

1. How much energy is needed to produce a solar cell.
2. How long is the solar cell expected to last.
3. How much energy is expected to be produced out of the solar cell during the time period that it lasts.

So, I would redirect you to the Pablo Servigne book I referenced above, pp.43-57. In there, the numbers you are asking for are given, and much more. This 14 page section of the book references 58 scientific papers. Although the specific numbers are all debatable within a certain range, the global picture that emerges is less questionnable. 

The problem is, it seems this book has not come out yet in english. I could manually post the references of these papers, as well as translate myself and post this section of the book, but that would mean you have have to go through them and do the huge synthesis work that Servigne has done yourself.

I could do it, if you're up for that. I'm not gonna spend hours on this for no reason, though emoticon.

RE: Uncharted Territory
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5/15/20 10:02 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Show me the numbers.

Let's say, to start with, show me the numbers for:

1. How much energy is needed to produce a solar cell.
2. How long is the solar cell expected to last.
3. How much energy is expected to be produced out of the solar cell during the time period that it lasts.


Mike, if you're determined to play the devil's advocate, or hard-nosed skeptic, or simply asshole, on this thread, then have the decency to do your fucking homework. Olivier supplied multiple fucking links in his initial posts. Why the fuck should we bog down the discussion for someone too fucking lazy to even do the work already done here?

best link reamins, as it has been since this fucking thread started:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycN3mVW1fow&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR26Dv_jw7XNLjZkscwIE1agmb-kW0K_zY5IOZeJ4zUDrmizdtHyOtg_uDc


Olivier also cites two other key texts he recommends to get your feet wet here, one a book, and one article. if you can be bothered, the fucking links are fucking placed perfectly at the fucking beginning of this conversation you're trolling, above.

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5/15/20 10:18 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
What makes you think I've not looked at those links?
FYI: I've looked at some of them -- though not all. 

I've not found it convincing.



Also, next time, mind your language. I've flagged this post of yours. And Chris will tell us whether your language is appropriate. 

Edit: The youtube link you provide: for planet of the humans, which you call the "best" link proves nothing -- there are no numbers. I've commented on that and Olivier has agreed that just that does not produce a case. So, consider the possibility that you're not following the discussion rather than using abusive language and pointing fingers at others.


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5/15/20 10:31 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Honestly, though... emoticon 

But people who only swear by "numbers" will only be convinced by numbers, even if they saw it right in front of their eyes, they would need some scientist to tell them using equations that yes, it's true, and so that's why people like Servigne have written books like he did... 

Anyways, Mike, if I do this will you go through all the articles and check the numbers ? 

(edit : btw : an energy specialist interviewed about energy telling you things, but not giving you numbers, is not a convincing case ? I don't agree with you that this documentary is not a convincing case. And to end with a joke : want a number ?

Here it is : 

7

...)

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5/15/20 10:28 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
What makes you think I've not looked at those links?
FYI: I've looked at some of them -- though not all. 

I've not found it convincing.



Also, next time, mind your language. I've flagged this post of yours. And Chris will tell us whether your language is appropriate. 

Edit: The youtube link you provide: for planet of the humans, which you call the "best" link proves nothing -- there are no numbers. I've commented on that and Olivier has agreed that just that does not produce a case. So, consider the possibility that you're not following the discussion rather than using abusive language and pointing fingers at others.


I don't need Chris Marti in his jikijitsu cap to tell me when someone is being simply perverse. This thread is for people willing to consider the possibility that the video and associated texts may have something to them. If you're on for that ride, fine. But you're not. I couldn't give a shit about your fucking numbers, i will use any fucking language i chose as most appropriate to the sitation until Chris as moderator tells me to back off, and i'm not here to do your fucking troll homework for you. Flag this too. Flag every fucking word out of my mouth until the situation on this planeyt makes all flagging moot.

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5/15/20 10:37 AM as a reply to Olivier.
How many articles are we talking about? If it is 2, I'd be happy to look at them. I can't promise I would be willing to check out 30 articles. So I won't insist on you doing the work on putting down 30 articles here.

I've checked out the following: the Planet of the Humans and the file deepadaptation.pdf. From those, I don't come to any definite conclusions.

It'd be easier if you provided the 3 numbers I asked for -- but this is up to you.

What do you mean by "Even if they saw it right in front of their eyes?" Hitler saw right in front of his eyes that what he was doing the right thing. We know the consequences of that. Most people are incapable of being precise -- and then they go based on make-believe. Consider the possibility that that's exactly what you're doing.


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5/15/20 10:40 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
No agenda. I don't have any money in solar or renewable energy.
And as an aside, I'm gonna ask you to prove that. With numbers please. *wink wink*

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5/15/20 10:46 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
How many articles are we talking about? If it is 2, I'd be happy to look at them. I can't promise I would be willing to check out 30 articles. So I won't insist on you doing the work on putting down 30 articles here.

I've checked out the following: the Planet of the Humans and the file deepadaptation.pdf. From those, I don't come to any definite conclusions.

It'd be easier if you provided the 3 numbers I asked for -- but this is up to you.

What do you mean by "Even if they saw it right in front of their eyes?" Hitler saw right in front of his eyes that what he was doing the right thing. We know the consequences of that. Most people are incapable of being precise -- and then they go based on make-believe. Consider the possibility that that's exactly what you're doing.


Ok man, here, you are the one incapable of being precise and going based on make belief.

I just told you I was willing to put references to a total number of 58 scientific papers from which you will be able to gather enough information to understand that what i've been talking about is in fact correct. Because that is the number that is necessary to realize that yes, there is no way renewables are going to do what you claim they could.

Now, you refuse to do the work, and accuse me of being imprecise and spreading misinformation.

I call serious bullshit.

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5/15/20 10:44 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Good to know that you think that the documentary provides a convincing case -- now we know where we differ.
I'd suggest you to ask Noam Chomsky, what he thinks of the documentary and how convincing a case it makes. He's usually available on e-mail. He seems to be someone you admire (unless I got it wrong based on what you've written) and I admire too.

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5/15/20 10:45 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Good to know that you think that the documentary provides a convincing case -- now we know where we differ.
I'd suggest you to ask Noam Chomsky, what he thinks of the documentary and how convincing a case it makes. He's usually available on e-mail. He seems to be someone you admire (unless I got it wrong based on what you've written) and I admire too.
Do you realize that Chomsky is CONSTANTLY talking about the fact that the two most important things in the world right now are

(1) potential nuclear war

and

(2) the fact that humanity is racing towards extinction ?

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5/15/20 10:46 AM as a reply to Olivier.
You're asking me to read 58 papers.
I'm asking you to provide 3 numbers which you seem unwilling to provide.


So, where's the bullshit?

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5/15/20 10:50 AM as a reply to Olivier.
He also says renewable energy is a good thing. 

Seriously, ask him about the documentary. And his view on renewables.  

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5/15/20 11:07 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
You're asking me to read 58 papers.
I'm asking you to provide 3 numbers which you seem unwilling to provide.


So, where's the bullshit?


The bullshit here is squarely on you, Mike. You are my friend, and i hate this, but you are here as a dilettante and a carper. This is a serious thread on a particular topic: WHAT IF this documentary is correct? Can we do the work of grief and despair that consideration brings? How would we go about doing that. We are not trying to convert or convince anyone here.

I think the worst bullshit you've pulled here is wasting the precious time of a man who has in fact read the 60 fucking articles you can't be bothered to read. It took serious effort on the part of several people to convince Olivier to host this seminar, he thought it was a waste of time. And now you are here proving him right.

Flag this fucking post too. Do your fucking homework. I would rather you simply gracefully withdraw from this thread, as from a party you crashed by mistake. No harm, no foul.

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5/15/20 11:08 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
 i will use any fucking language i chose as most appropriate to the sitation until Chris as moderator tells me to back off, and i'm not here to do your fucking troll homework for you. 

Tim, there's no need to take it so quickly from 1 to 10 on the reaction scale. Okay? That applies to your use of language to Mike and, frankly, to me. 

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5/15/20 11:20 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
 i will use any fucking language i chose as most appropriate to the sitation until Chris as moderator tells me to back off, and i'm not here to do your fucking troll homework for you. 

Tim, there's no need to take it so quickly from 1 to 10 on the reaction scale. Okay? That applies to your use of language to Mike and, frankly, to me. 

okay.

Is that all the action you intend to take here? Because if it is, let's save a loop and say that I flag Mike for trolling and sheer obstructiveness in persisting in violating the clearly stated intention of this thread. I believe you should recommend that he leave this thread alone.

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5/15/20 11:22 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Let's not play games with this. It's not in your best interest.

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5/15/20 12:18 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Show me the numbers.

Let's say, to start with, show me the numbers for:

1. How much energy is needed to produce a solar cell.
2. How long is the solar cell expected to last.
3. How much energy is expected to be produced out of the solar cell during the time period that it lasts.

"The concept of ERoI (energy return on investment) does not only apply to fossil fuels. To obtain energy from a wind-mill for instance, one must spend energy to put together all the materials which will go into its construction, to construct it, install them, and maintain. In the US, solar with concentration (great mirros in the desert) have an ERoI of 1.6:1. Photovoltaic in Spain, around 2.5:1 (source : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259175194_EROI_of_Different_Fuels_and_the_Implications_for_Society). As for wind energy, at first glance it seems to have a more encouraging number of 18:1 (source : https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-1-4419-9437-0). Unfortunately, these numbers do not take into account the intermittent character of this type of energy and the necessity to add a storage system or an thermo-electric powerplant. If you take that into account, the ERoI of wind-mills would plundge down to 3.8:1 (source : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235911322_Energy_intensities_EROIs_energy_returned_on_invested_and_energy_payback_times_of_electricity_generating_power_plants). Only hydroelectricity would offer a comfortable return located somewhere between 35:1 to 49:1. But, beyond the fact that this type of production seriously impacts natural habitats (source : https://www.vox.com/2014/10/28/7083487/the-world-is-building-thousands-of-new-dams-is-that-really-a-good-idea), a recent study showed that the 3700 projects currently underway or planned in the world would only increase the world production by 2% (from 16 to 18% source : https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00027-014-0377-0)

To sum up, renewable energies do not have enough power to compensate for the decline in fossil fuels, et there aren't enough fossil fuels (nor minerals) to massively develop renewable energies in order to compensate for the announced decline in fossil fuels. [NB from Olivier : here, the numbers and references are not given because he is summarizing previous paragraphs. Which I can quote if you dare me ;) ;)] As Gail Tverberg, investor and specialist in the energy economy, sums it up, "we are being told that renewables will save us, but that's a lie. Wind power and solar photovoltaïc are as much part of our fossil-fuels-based system as any other source of electricity" (source : https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/converging-crises-may-251.pdf, other papers from her : https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gail_Tverberg).

The problem is that our modern societies need a minimal ERoI to provide all the services which are currently offered to their population (source : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26584295_What_is_the_Minimum_EROI_that_a_Sustainable_Society_Must_Have) The principle of energetic exploitation is grossly the following : we first allocate the energetic surplus which we have at our disposal to the tasks which are indispensible to our survival, for instance to food production, habitat construction and heating, clothes manufacturing, or sanitary systems for our cities. Then, we divide the remaining value to the functioning of justic systems, national security, defense, social security, health of education. Finally, if we have any surplus left, we use it for entertainment (tourism, cinema, etc.).

Today, the minimal ERoI needed to provide all these services has been estimated as lying in a range comprised between 12:1 and 13:1 (source : https://mahb.stanford.edu/library-item/energy-eroi-and-quality-of-life/).
In other words, it is a threshold under which we mustn ot venture, lest we must collectively decide - with all the difficulties which that implies - which services we will keep and the ones which we must renounce (source : https://www.institutmomentum.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/La-diminution-de-l%E2%80%99%C3%A9nergie-nette.pdf). With an average ERoI declining for fossil fuels [NB those are the numbers I quoted above, which were correct. The references are in previous paragraphs before this excerpt] and a ERoI which does not exceed 12:1 for the vast majority of renewables, we are getting dangerously close from that threshold." (pp. 54-55)

I'll stop here for now...

You can also check wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment#Application_to_various_technologies
D
on't fail to notice it says that "The values refer to the total energy output. The expense for storage power plants, seasonal reserves or conventional load balancing power plants is not taken into account." That is very significant.
When we see that for wind power, taking this stuff into account makes the ratio drop from 18:1 to 3.8:1, we can infer that the ratios here shown, which are high, would drop significantly under 12:1.
And even if we had solar cells over 12:1 (after all, hydroelectric have an EROI well over that) - all the other points about mineral depletions and manufacturing costs would still valid and not really change the general picture outlined in the section mentionned, pp. 43 to 57 of Servigne's book.

I recommend it, again. The individuals figures may be discussed but when you take everything together, it holds up.

Disclaimer : I have not read the 60 articles tim emoticon There is a limit to scientific scepticism, that is the purpose of peer-reviewed journals : to ensure we can trust (verus means, something we can trust) the quality of sourced material.

Ps : sorry for the professoral tone

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 11:52 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Will look through it and get back. This'd require a few days.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 2:31 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
In the meantime, if you wanted to get back to business tim... It might be hard to let yourself feel again after these subtle energies have ploughed through the room, O the limbness and light sensitivity of the objective mind's , but oh well...

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 12:31 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Chris Marti:
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.

Yeah, it's worse than that, I think. This is the death of financial markets capitalism.  20% to 30% is just the first wave. After that their suppliers go bust, and their suppliers. And of course the negative demand effect from unemployment will be huge.  Everthing is so interconnected and overleveraged now, compared to he 1930s, it's a real worry.  And having multi-trillion dollar bailouts every ten years is not sustainable. I see three principal scenarios for how this ends.

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 



if we don't already have militias and district gvernors in open reblllion at that point issuing their own currency, and enforcing this with their own men under arms.
2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

follow the money, indeed.
3. Socialism - Something like providing everyone with a universal basic income, recovering the looted simulus money through wealth taxes, having mixed public/private sector model, and move as much as possible to online business and automation. Basically we have to totally rebalance our banking and productive sectors, and truly ride the technological change to a new type of society, instead of being stuck in the past. Markets can't do this on their own - it needs heavy state intervention to support it.

like that's going to happen?

The main thing as I see it, Malcom is the slope of the human population. It is a classic population curve, the kind you see in many species over time, and in every one of the cases so far the next phase of the curve is a precipitate drop in population on a spectacular scale. We have been telling ourselves we can be unique, ecologically speaking, and somehow level off and sustain the present population, at best. But meanwhile, the curve continues upward.
Whatever happens, the economy of 'things' is dead. The only thing that will keep us going is realising we never needed all that crap we bought, and we can live simply and cheaply and have a really high standard of life after all. All we need is the four requisites (plus energy and sewerage), and a smartphone and a big flatscreen. Simplicity in the home, complexity in the servers. Restraint in private spaces, luxury in public spaces. 

So we may have to find different ways to use the agricultural and manufacturing surplus. Instead of employing people to build malls, sell barbie dolls, advertise fast food, and promote ocean cruises, we may need to employ them to build online games, create virtual environments, offer online grief counselling, drive delivery drones, grow organic food in cities, repair the environment, create public art and so on.  We need a massive realignment if we are to avoid a fairly destructive feudalism.

Ahh... rant over ... I feel better already!  

not to poop the party, amigo, but if you feel better, you aren't in deep enough yet.
As you say, these are the times we practice for.  It's much easier if we are not clinging to weird mind-made objects.
 amen. And thanks to Chris also for setting off this cascade in the first place.

love
Tim

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 2:43 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
When I landed in Kathmandu, for my month long at Panditarama lumbini, I had already started reading Servigne. I was horrified at the nightmarish pollution in this city, the chaos. It's the most polluted city in the world currently, or second. 

I just felt so viscerally that what he was saying was true. I stumbled upon this article here, and it resonated so strongly with me. I wanted to share it with you. It really made me ask myselves questions like : if I must die, what should I die for ? 

I thought about that again during the hardcore retreat, and there was a moment when I knew what I was read to die for, although I couldn't have put it in words, perhaps for the first time. It was a strong moment. The fact of knowing viscerally that it's possible to be ok with dying for a cause, or rather to be so devoted to something that you would give your life for it, was really powerful. I imagine many parents feel that... 


https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 3:01 PM as a reply to Olivier.
When you know all these numbers and figures and trends, watching an exchange like this at Davos 2020 is just hilarious : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51u4JECraLQ

T
here is a wonderful tchadian woman saying that they don't want technology, they have the traditional knowledge to restore the forest which is their source of food, and that they should just be left alone to do that - they don't care about internet or electricity or progress. Next to her is a big guy from Rockefeller whatever who explains they are gonna install micro-tech bullcrap to create cheap electricity so that everyone in africa can have it !!!! Yey !!!! She says : we have no food. We don't want technology...

Other german big guy talking about cutting emissions a bit after Greta's speech. Chinese government official explaining that creativity from the private sector will need to find the solutions for climate change because we ain't gonna stop chasing after growth, sorry.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 3:18 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
When I landed in Kathmandu, for my month long at Panditarama lumbini, I had already started reading Servigne. I was horrified at the nightmarish pollution in this city, the chaos. It's the most polluted city in the world currently, or second. 

I just felt so viscerally that what he was saying was true. I stumbled upon this article here, and it resonated so strongly with me. I wanted to share it with you. It really made me ask myselves questions like : if I must die, what should I die for ? 

I thought about that again during the hardcore retreat, and there was a moment when I knew what I was read to die for, although I couldn't have put it in words, perhaps for the first time. It was a strong moment. The fact of knowing viscerally that it's possible to be ok with dying for a cause, or rather to be so devoted to something that you would give your life for it, was really powerful. I imagine many parents feel that... 


https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown
It's sort of like drinking sips of poison. 

An interesting sign of the times here--- https://frieze.com/article/arts-ecological-turn-and-sixth-great-extinction 
Art’s Ecological Turn and the Sixth Great Extinction
Two shows, at Cologne’s Temporary Gallery and Moscow’s Garage MCA, look to art in the age of environmental collapse:

In the context of climate destruction, representations of the ecological or technological sublime, such as the massive formats of Edward Byrtynksy or the videos of visual artist Rachel Rose, have come, for me, to seem increasingly escapist, suffering from what the cultural critic Sianne Ngai theorises as ‘stuplimity’: the sublime plus ‘whatever’. You look into the void, you look out.

Two recent exhibitions in Germany and Russia took a different tack. The first was held in Cologne this summer: a modest group show held at the not-for-profit Temporary Gallery, ‘Heart of an Old Crocodile Exploding Over a Small Town.’ The second, at Moscow’s Garage Museum of Contemporary Art, ‘The Coming World: Ecology as the New Politics 2030–2100’, which runs until December. Both shows chose not to span out but to drive in to consider our current predicament, focussing on the creaturely, the subterranean and the weird, to think through life within and beyond the anthropocene.

love, tim

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 3:22 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Yes, very toxic topic ! 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 4:25 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Jonathan Neale, "Social Collapse and climate breakdown":

Almost none of those (major twnetieth century mass] horrors were committed by small groups of savages wandering through the ruins. They were committed by States, and by mass political movements.

Society did not disintegrate. It did not come apart. Society intensified. Power concentrated, and split, and those powers had us kill each other. It seems reasonable to assume that climate social collapse will be like that. Only with five times as many dead, if we are lucky, and twenty-five times as many, if we are not.

Remember this, because when the moment of runaway climate change comes for you, where you live, it will not come in the form of a few wandering hairy bikers. It will come with the tanks on the streets and the military or the fascists taking power.

Those generals will talk in deep green language. They will speak of degrowth, and the boundaries of planetary ecology. They will tell us we have consumed too much, and been too greedy, and now for the sake of Mother Earth, we must tighten our belts.

Then we will tighten our belts, and we will suffer, and they will build a new kind of gross green inequality. And in a world of ecological freefall, it will take cruelty on an unprecedented scale to keep their inequality in place.


https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown

I am struck by Neale’s assertion in https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown that one of the main features of a societal “breakdown” and climate/resources/virus/population-crash global emergency is likely to be not the disappearance of governments, but the kind of extraordinary cementing of control by governments that we are seeing in the covid crisis. I live among poor blacks and poor whites, mostly, here, and strangely enough, neither of these seemingly irreconcilable and seemingly naturally antagonistic groups trust the government a bit, and they’re all sure that once the crisis is “past,” the government will not back off from the kind of social control they’ve suddenly realized they can exercise in the face of a kind of natural Pearl Harbor mobilizing the country’s spirit and its fears.
 
This took me back to a bunch of books i read about four years ago, trying to understand how the eastern europeans had accomplished the miracles of 1989, the non-violent mass movements that brought down the Soviet Union. The Civil Rights movement of the 60s is also very instructive along these lines, of what are ordinary people to do in the face of brutal government-back systematic and institutionalized oppression? And Gandhi, of course.
 
And, of course, that so many leaders of non-violent revolutions are killed by violence.
 
Anyway, how do real people even begin to understand how to live with the possibility that Neale is right when he says:
 
Remember this, because when the moment of runaway climate change comes for you, where you live, it will not come in the form of a few wandering hairy bikers. It will come with the tanks on the streets and the military or the fascists taking power.

Those generals will talk in deep green language. They will speak of degrowth, and the boundaries of planetary ecology. They will tell us we have consumed too much, and been too greedy, and now for the sake of Mother Earth, we must tighten our belts.

Then we will tighten our belts, and we will suffer, and they will build a new kind of gross green inequality. And in a world of ecological freefall, it will take cruelty on an unprecedented scale to keep their inequality in place.

The answers, i think, can begin to be studied in those extraordinary underground small groups that laid the foundations under the Soviets for a renewal of spirit and a belief in the power of truth, against all odds, by simply beginning to get together quietly and secretly and talk with each other about what was actually going on.
 
A good one to start with: An essay length article by Vaclav Havel that lays out the groundwork for the kind of underground society of truth-tellers that underlay the “sudden” non-violent success of the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia in 1989,l and in particular the radical yet simple tactic of small groups getting together simply to tell each other the truth, what he calls “Living the truth,” which he feels was the key to the whole revival of Czech morale at the grass roots level under the boot of a society where truth was punished at every turn.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120107141633/http://www.vaclavhavel.cz/showtrans.php?cat=clanky&val=72_aj_clanky.html&typ=HTML
 
A bunch of great books that spin separate threads of this approach:

Open letters, Vaclav Havel, https://www.amazon.com/Open-Letters-Selected-Writings-1965-1990/dp/0679738118/ref=sr_1_1?crid=AS28X9B0BJ79&dchild=1&keywords=open+letters+havel&qid=1589575401&s=books&sprefix=Open+Letters%2Cdigital-text%2C150&sr=1-1
 
The Captive Mind, Czeslaw Milosz, https://www.amazon.com/The-Captive-Mind-audiobook/dp/B077H8GR6C/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3IZB1ZIT6W3B0&dchild=1&keywords=the+captive+mind+by+czes%C5%82aw+milosz&qid=1589575476&s=books&sprefix=the+captive+mind%2Cstripbooks%2C157&sr=1-1
 
Adam Roberts (Editor), Timothy Garton Ash (Editor) Civil Resistance and Power Politics: The Experience of Non-Violent Action from Gandhi to the Present
https://www.amazon.com/Civil-Resistance-Power-Politics-Non-violent/dp/0199691452/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=civil+resistance+and+power+politics&qid=1589575521&s=audible&sr=1-1-catcorr
 
Timothy Garton Ash, editor of the above, was one of the finest journalist-historians observering the events throughout the largely non-violent and grass roots revolutions in eastern Europe that toppled the Soviet system. A good one to start with is,The Polish Revolution: Solidarity, 
https://www.amazon.com/Polish-Revolution-Solidarity-Third/dp/0300095686/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&qid=1589575735&refinements=p_27%3ATimothy+Garton+Ash&s=books&sr=1-2&text=Timothy+Garton+Ash
 
and  The Magic Lantern, on varius other eastern european mass movements in the same vein  https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Lantern-Revolution-Witnessed-Budapest-ebook/dp/B004089I5Q/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1589575799&refinements=p_27%3ATimothy+Garton+Ash&s=books&sr=1-6&text=Timothy+Garton+Ash
 
 
There are many precedents for ripened contemplatives entering whole-heartedly into political action. Thomas Merton is among the most noted--- and, among a certain strain of old school Catholics, notorious; these are the people who never forgave him for not doing variations of The Seven-Storey Mountain for the rest of his life--- and his collection of essays, The Non-Violent Alternative shows the extent to which he was involved in the world in all its messiness, from his latter-years hermitage in Kentuckyl during the crisies of civil rights and Vietnam, among others, in the 1960s---  https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Merton/dp/0374515751/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+non-violent+alternative+merton&qid=1589575937&s=books&sr=1-1

l
ol, yeah, i know. books, books, books. you can make a new stack beside the stack of unread dharma books you can't find time to get to either.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 4:44 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Yes ! Cool ! Thank you for the references. I was recently recommended Milosz, and had wanted to read Havel and Merton for a while. So i'll start (?) with those. Particularly curious about Havel here as it seems so relevant, great !


But, Tim Fucking F, fucking amazon ?  ^^

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 6:14 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
Yes ! Cool ! Thank you for the references. I was recently recommended Milosz, and had wanted to read Havel and Merton for a while. So i'll start (?) with those. Particularly curious about Havel here as it seems so relevant, great !


But, Tim Fucking F, fucking amazon ?  ^^

ooops. independent booksellers, shoot me, i deserve it. i succumbed to ease. Olivier, my bad, but I AM bad. Feel free to offer more whatever-friendly links.

Start with the havel essay.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/15/20 11:43 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
emoticon

Theme song, courtesy of Smashmouth: Smashmouth, courtesy of John W, aka That Mad Rambler who only comes down from his cave once a full moon to yell Smashmouth lyrics at random villagers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gklwYGHYeGU&list=PL3KU7_vkKrAmBCksSCjxOtQ9bhfhDY515&index=38

"So Insane"

When was the last time you clocked-in?
There is a race to be run and a song to be sung
There is a fine line wearing thin

So don't look back the past has past
The future is coming fast
You better make room, we're coming through
Loud and clear


We got the hands to turn this around
We got the plan to make it go down
We got the voice filling this room
We got the minds, the minds that go boom
Get up get out get on that train
It's becoming so insane
This tiny blue marble is rolling away


Have ya checked out the temperature lately
There's a fever that's about to break
There is a game to be won and a song to be sung
This is our battle cry, make no mistake
So don't look back the past has past
The future is coming fast
You better make room, we're coming through
Loud and clear


We got the hands to turn this around
We got the plan to make it go down
We got the voice filling this room
We got the minds, the minds that go boom
Get up get out get on that train
It's becoming so insane
This tiny blue marble is rolling away


 
So don't look back the past has past
The future is coming fast
You better make room, we're coming through
Loud and clear


RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/16/20 12:06 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Olivier --

What do you think the ongoing pandemic will do to the environment (short-term), and to the long-term effort to stave off environmental disaster? Will it accelerate our decline or could the pandemic become the fulcrum leveraging us to a better future? It seems to me this is a Black Swan that comes along only every so often, and that it can be used for good or for ill, depending.

Thoughts?
I think what has most obviously emerged in light of the ongoing pandemic is the astonishing efficacy and power of government control. 

and :
I am struck by Neale’s assertion in https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown that one of the main features of a societal “breakdown” and climate/resources/virus/population-crash global emergency is likely to be not the disappearance of governments, but the kind of extraordinary cementing of control by governments that we are seeing in the covid crisis. I live among poor blacks and poor whites, mostly, here, and strangely enough, neither of these seemingly irreconcilable and seemingly naturally antagonistic groups trust the government a bit, and they’re all sure that once the crisis is “past,” the government will not back off from the kind of social control they’ve suddenly realized they can exercise in the face of a kind of natural Pearl Harbor mobilizing the country’s spirit and its fears.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/16/20 3:01 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Mike Smirnoff:
What makes you think I've not looked at those links?
FYI: I've looked at some of them -- though not all. 

I've not found it convincing.



Also, next time, mind your language. I've flagged this post of yours. And Chris will tell us whether your language is appropriate. 

Edit: The youtube link you provide: for planet of the humans, which you call the "best" link proves nothing -- there are no numbers. I've commented on that and Olivier has agreed that just that does not produce a case. So, consider the possibility that you're not following the discussion rather than using abusive language and pointing fingers at others.




Mike, i've had some time to consider my behavior and now, in the cold light of a pitch black four am wee hours, post-first-sit, i just want to tell you how sorry i am for that truly atrocious behavior. You and Olivier were conducting a perfectly civilized conversation between peers on a topic of mutual interest, and scrupulously attending to clarifying points and delineating differences with mutual respect and exemplary fondness. I crashed into that model exchange late, like a bull into a china shop,, and made an ass of myself completely.

You were right to flag me for it, and Chris was right to tell me to put a lid on it.

I hope you will forgive me in time. Please know that i have valued our friendship ever since our early exchanges on some dark night thread back in the day, where you were one of the earliest people on DhO to engage me with the respect and curiousity and precise attention and joy in the swapping of perspectives on the path that characterize your posts in general.

Again, i'm truly sorry for dumpinjg that abuse on you. You didn't deserve that. I hope i have not destroyed our friendship.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/16/20 3:07 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
 i will use any fucking language i chose as most appropriate to the sitation until Chris as moderator tells me to back off, and i'm not here to do your fucking troll homework for you. 

Tim, there's no need to take it so quickly from 1 to 10 on the reaction scale. Okay? That applies to your use of language to Mike and, frankly, to me. 

Chris, fuck you and the horse you rode in on. You ain't my momma.

emoticon

truly, man, i'm sorry. Thank you for once again doing your job as the jikijitsu here precisely and promptly and cleanly and righteously. You were right all the way, and i was way way off. My bad.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/16/20 9:31 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim, thanks for your apology. I do have to say, though, you only get so many yellow cards. 

Now.... back to the topic.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/16/20 9:38 AM as a reply to Olivier.
I used to work in Silicon Valley and I still follow those folks. In my opinion, they are the people who are potentially the most dangerous and the most helpful to us, now and into the future. They have been allowed massive amounts of freedom and they sometimes get it right and other times cause huge ripples of pain. They have given us vast stores of information and they have fostered untold amounts of disinformation. They have shrunk the globe and they have taken our freedom and privacy. They have ridiculous money and very little of it trickles down. They will likely crown the world's first trillionaire, which angers and saddens me. Trillions in personal wealth is... profane.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/16/20 1:47 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Hmm, again I forgot to save my answer and it got swallowed, I suck at this...

Take 2 :

I think you mean obscene ?

How do you imagine new technologies taking a part in the future ? If we need to cut energy consumption by 86% basically right now to avoid +2 by 2050, give or take - cf Jean-Baptiste Fressoz, historian of sciences and industry - I think that just implies giving up high-tech  and embracing low-tech (although, I don't really see higher techs than plants, humans, and life forms in general, but anyways...).

Sure, they have their + and - sides, but they are in any case intrinsically linked with the whole fossil-fueled system, they are part of this interconnected whole which includes the entire industrial complex. Can you build any kind of chip, processor, etc., without heavy industry ?  Could it be possible to keep the upsides of this system, and throw away the downsides ? It sounds a bit like wanting to keep the apparently nice aspects of dualistic perception while wanting to get enlightened. How ?

Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ? I think it was just a different homeostasis, and that we shouldn't necesarilly fear a change of equilibium. {High material comfort + low sense of belonging, community, meaning, sacredness} doesn't necessarily seem like a better equation than {Low material comfort + high degree of meaningfulness, sacredness, community with life in human and non-human forms}. Although anyone with an interest in high-consumption lifestyles will try to prove otherwise - cf. the part in the "social collapse" article about the british ruling class and Hobbes. In fact, from an evolutionary standpoint, the latter having probably been closer to the actual living conditions of humans for most of history, it would make sense to imagine that this is how we would be happiest. To further this point, here is a funny and eloquent quote.


A Gaspesian (now Micmac) chief, in 1676, criticizes a group of French captains in Nova Scotia for the great esteem in which they hold French civilization.

"It is true that we have not always had the use of bread and of wine which you France produces ; but, in fact, before the arrival of the Franch in these parts, did not the Gaspesians live much longer than now ? And if we have not any longer amon us any of those old men of a hundred and thirty to forty years, it is only because we are gradually adopting your manner of living, for experience is making it very plain that those of us live longest who, despising your bread, your wine, and your brandy, are content with the natural food of beaver, of moose, of waterfowl, and fish, in accord with the custom of our ancestors and of all the Gaspesian nation. Learn now, my brother once for all, because I must open to thee my heart : there is no indian who does not consider himself infinitely more happy and more powerful than the French."

Haha.

Thoughts ?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 5:37 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Tim, thanks for your apology. I do have to say, though, you only get so many yellow cards. 




Chris, thanks for your thanks.

It is my understanding that i am allowed one yellow card per game. And that game is over. And the other guys won.

Clean slate.



Now.... back to the topic.
amen.

 love, tim

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 8:16 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ?

Olivier, can you first please tell me what you mean by "worse off"? The question could refer to just about any version of the spectrum of human existence I can think of, so I'd like to know what part of the spectrum you're addressing. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 8:19 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
It is my understanding that i am allowed one yellow card per game. And that game is over. And the other guys won.

Tim, framing this issue is critical, and I'm charged with being the referee. Be a good DhO citizen all the time and the red card will stay in my pocket.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 9:05 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
It is my understanding that i am allowed one yellow card per game. And that game is over. And the other guys won.

Tim, framing this issue is critical, and I'm charged with being the referee. Be a good DhO citizen all the time and the red card will stay in my pocket.

Chris, i agree that framing the issue is critical. I have shown as much respect as is due you in your referee cap at DhO, I think you know that. This is not about whether I can be an ideal DhO citizen all the time; that strikes me as unrealistic, and I actually suspect you are yanking by chain by saying it. The issue here, in this post, is: the crucial sequence is yellow card (warning), red card (banning). If i am at perpetual yellow card status, if i only get 1 yellow card per career, that also strikes me as unrealistic. The reason for yellow cards is for the referee to let the hot head know that one more, and he's out of the game. You say, I stop fucking up and play out the game. Then, new game, fresh slate.

I say again, the other game is over, and the other guys won. The slate is clear. The next yellow card i get, if ever i do, i will almost certainly respect it, as i have respected all but one of your yellow cards. But if the next card is red no matter what, as you seem to be implying consistently here, then it's just a matter of time, so let's just fucking get it out of the way right away, right fucking now, and save us both a shitload of trouble.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 9:05 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Olivier - the video linked here seems somehow very fitting on this topic:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=644&v=Xb6TIWub6KU&feature=emb_logo

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 9:14 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I say again, the other game is over, and the other guys won. The slate is clear. The next yellow card i get, if ever i do, i will almost certainly respect it, as i have respected all but one of your yellow cards. But if the next card is red no matter what, as you seem to be implying consistently here, then it's just a matter of time, so let's just fucking get it out of the way right away, right fucking now, and save us both a shitload of trouble.

What I'm hearing you say is that we're doomed to repeat this play, over and over and over. I don't have the time or patience for that. I think you can learn from experience, being the smart and articulate human being that you are, and I think you should expect more from yourself.

EDIT: You can be your own regulator and not rely on me to do it for you. That's what we're working for when we practice.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 9:15 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I say again, the other game is over, and the other guys won. The slate is clear. The next yellow card i get, if ever i do, i will almost certainly respect it, as i have respected all but one of your yellow cards. But if the next card is red no matter what, as you seem to be implying consistently here, then it's just a matter of time, so let's just fucking get it out of the way right away, right fucking now, and save us both a shitload of trouble.

What I'm hearing you say is that we're doomed to repeat this play, over and over and over. I don't have the time or patience for that. I think you can learn from experience, being the smart and articulate human being that you are, and I think you should expect more from yourself. 
There will eternally be moments when a higher law applies. Neither of us can do anything at those moments but our duty, a la the Bghavad Gita: your dharma and mine, in the battlefield filled with cousins ready to kill cousins that is samsara. You and I know that Krisna parks their chariot for a chat with the reluctant-to-do-his-bloody-duty Arjuna, at the still point of that turning world. So let's both hope that 
our charioteers give us good advice, when the battle resumes. I actually think we're pretty good at this shit, and there's no one more fun to do it with than you, my friend.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 9:43 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim. 

I know from my experience how hard it is to resist the urge to let bleed through happen and be spat unto others. DN is a very reactive stage for many of us. It feels as we have no control over the Urge. It just spits at oneself and all those around us. 

I failed to get my shit together which resulted in turning away from Dhamma communities and trying to absorb myself into every day life. Still the urge remained. Spitting my bleed through on others. People did not like that. No one likes that and why should any one like it. 

I was ignoring it all for several years until I just could not stand it anymore and I knew to my bones that there was no way back to the pre-path faze of my ignorant life as I have already seen lots of stuff, and the only way was walking forward with the lit torch of mindfulness and acceptance. Practice was the only way. 

I will miss you but I doubt I will have the energy to follow you out side of DhO if you get yourself kicked out. 

I do see you starting many new threads which reminds me of my DN stage back in 2011 when I was part of another Dhamma forum. It's a forceful urge and not easy to tame. One has to come to the point of being sick and tired of that urge to piss and spit on one self and others. I hope you will have the power to realize this while stil here on DhO and find a way that works well for moving your practice ahead. 

Did you ever consider finding an online teacher? One on one. Also would be good to have someone to talk about psychological stuff. 
In case you must bring all sorts of philosophical and religious stuff into the web world maybe join such forums and vent out there as those are made for it. Keep this Zendo for practicing allowing those who have tips to reach you. 

I do wish you find a way to come back to the focus needed to continue on this Path to awakening. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 9:54 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ?

Olivier, can you first please tell me what you mean by "worse off"? The question could refer to just about any version of the spectrum of human existence I can think of, so I'd like to know what part of the spectrum you're addressing. 
The isobarycenter of all aspects of existence. 

emoticon 

It's not a very serious question. General sense of satisfaction with existence, sense of meaning, etc. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 10:00 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
Chris Marti:
Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ?

Olivier, can you first please tell me what you mean by "worse off"? The question could refer to just about any version of the spectrum of human existence I can think of, so I'd like to know what part of the spectrum you're addressing. 
The isobarycenter of all aspects of existence. 

emoticon 

It's not a very serious question. General sense of satisfaction with existence, sense of meaning, etc. 


Chris: like so:



"Isobarycentre, exercice de barycentres "


CentroidProject SparkDefinition: an isobarycenter, also know as the center of gravity in Physics, is the average of equal masses placed at the point positions. The formula is to add all the points, and divide by the number of points. But fortunately, Project Spark has got a tile for that: "centroid". It needs an object set to work, so you'll have to put all your objects in an object set, or directly use each object (with the in-world picker/object variables and "plus"). Here's how this tile works:{object set...Centroid | Project Spark Wiki | Fandom https:&#047;&#047;projectspark.fandom.com&#047;wiki&#047;Centroid

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 10:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Olivier - the video linked here seems somehow very fitting on this topic:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=644&v=Xb6TIWub6KU&feature=emb_logo

Yeah !
It's like Malcolm said : we don't really need that much at all, in the end, I think. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 10:40 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Are you in the mode where you start watching crazy youtube videos with DIY everything ??
Classic sign that you're taking this seriousely !!!!

Welcome, welcome emoticon

I had a phase like that this winter, I'd learn about how to make rocket stoves made from discarded metals that could go over 1000C and melt aluminum, about edible plants in the wild and all emoticon Survivor style.
It seems to be a pretty classic phase when you start looking more deeply into collapse stuff emoticon 
You learn interesting things in the process ! Luckily, I really don't think it will be like that anymore, although those are always useful know-hows. It will be social, communal, especially if we ask those questions now that we have so much room to manoeuvre.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 10:35 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
Chris Marti:
Olivier - the video linked here seems somehow very fitting on this topic:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=644&v=Xb6TIWub6KU&feature=emb_logo

Yeah !
It's like Malcolm said : we don't really need that much at all, in the end, I think. 
forget the miraculously maintained washing machine, i want to learn that guy's accent!

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 11:21 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:

General sense of satisfaction with existence, sense of meaning, etc. 

Hmmm... this is pretty nebulous. Can you name some of the other independent variables? I've always been drawn to Maslow:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

One reason is that his hierarchy is not political or economic but broken into basic, psychological, and fulfillment segments.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 11:34 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
What do you mean "independent variables", I thought you were an arahat !?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 11:49 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Statistically speaking  emoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/17/20 12:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Let's use the Maslow model then.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 3:56 AM as a reply to Olivier.
emoticon

or not.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 4:32 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
What do you mean "independent variables", I thought you were an arahat !?

Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 4:53 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Olivier:
What do you mean "independent variables", I thought you were an arahat !?

Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.

I don't understand. Isn't the judgment of one's peers more important?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 5:11 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Nah, judgement doesn't matter at all.  Rather it's knowledge that matters (or wisdom, if you prefer).

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 5:23 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Nah, judgement doesn't matter at all.  Rather it's knowledge that matters (or wisdom, if you prefer).


as determined by whom? This gets circular fast, yes?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 5:34 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.emoticon

I added the smiliy face your forgot to add.

It's funny because there is an element of truth, like all good jokes. emoticonemoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 6:00 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Not two, not one:
Nah, judgement doesn't matter at all.  Rather it's knowledge that matters (or wisdom, if you prefer).


as determined by whom? This gets circular fast, yes?

Ehm! Two sharks circling around you mate. Just sayn'! I'm out of here emoticon 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 6:04 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
emoticon



RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 6:52 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Two sharks circling around you mate.

They are only sharks by the standards of other sharks, not by the standards of non-sharks  emoticon


RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 7:20 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Touche' emoticon 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 8:10 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Not two, not one:
Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.emoticon

I added the smiliy face your forgot to add.

It's funny because there is an element of truth, like all good jokes. emoticonemoticon
This conversation is way above my pay grade. emoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/29/20 2:35 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Two sharks circling around you mate.

They are only sharks by the standards of other sharks, not by the standards of non-sharks  emoticon

Well that is totally next level.  emoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
5/30/20 3:44 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Touche' emoticon 

Sergeant Dusko, this bar has quietly filled up with officers and REMFs. I'm getting out of here before i punch somebody and lose my hard-re-won Lance Corporal rank. See you at the Skype cafe later, amigo. Do you copy?

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over and out.


RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/16/20 10:31 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
A pretty good video - can you spot the bear watching bear porn ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7LDk4D3Q3U&feature=youtu.be

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/16/20 2:40 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
A pretty good video - can you spot the bear watching bear porn ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7LDk4D3Q3U&feature=youtu.be

Not through my black tears of despair, no.

Thanks, Olivier, for that utterly brutal but expertly produced vision of everything going to shit, with an ironic anthem to freedom soaring above through the poisoned skies. I am now going to pray for us all.

love, tim

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/16/20 3:07 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Well, sorry about that tim, I didn't make it though !

<3

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/17/20 12:09 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
Well, sorry about that tim, I didn't make it though !

<3


you PROPOGATED it! The parable is this: the sower sows the seed.

love, tim

p.s. musical interlude   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efl0G4SUdiM


RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/24/20 3:51 PM as a reply to Olivier.
2.7°C increase in global average temp now locked in according to conservative IPCC emoticon 

This really dwarves the corona situation.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/25/20 6:52 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
2.7°C increase in global average temp now locked in according to conservative IPCC emoticon 

This really dwarves the corona situation.

Olivier,

I think what i freally want to keep studying is how to work under an oppressive totalitarian regime. What corona has taught us is that you can scare most of the people all of the time with a little nicely managed crisis, and how quickly we have abandonned our humanity in favor of guilty until prven innocent suspicion of every-fucking-one.

And don't dare protest in the streets without your fucking 6 foot gap.

took a knee at the National Anthem, when it was played at the local episcopalian church's white-assuagementofguilt-ceremony on Juneteenth. Just practicing.

love, tim

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/26/20 2:36 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
So, what was most impressive to me during this lock down was : how quickly people and behaviors can change if there is truely a sense of urgency in both the population and the executive power. The reason why people abdicated their freedoms is because they believed it was justified and necessary. That's they key point. It wasn't unreasonable in the face of the situation. 

That was incredible to me : in france, within one day, everything stopped and people would get fined if they lert home. Because the government decided so. I could feel the enormous power there.

If they felt compelled to, the powers in place could cut consumption by five within days. They could turn the whole thing over. That's what i learned here. I didn't really realize that.

If tomorrow everyone wakes up and the powers in place all share a great concern for the fact that ... etc., Climate change will kill everyone...  and say that to the general public with as firm a voice as they did with the corona threat ; as well as take the the necessary measures, which are of the scale of the ones we've seen - then people will DEFINITELY follow, gladly so, because when they are convinced of the righteousness of some measures, and are forced to comply strictly, they just do it. Just like we've seen.

But they won't if there isn't a sense of urgency of the kind which was present right before lockdown. Unfortunately humans are not wired to feel urgency for longer  term problems... However much worse those might be...

I'm surprised that even in enlightened communities such as this one, people don't seem to grasp the seriousness of the predicament. 

Tim, have you heard of extinction rebellion ? You might be interested in looking up Roger Hallam their founder. Interesting speaker. He has spent five years studying how change of the scale needed has happened in history. His answer is mass civil desobedience.

He is a powerful speaker but a big problem is that he lacks the intense meaningfulness which gandhi/king etc. Could bring along. All that Hallam works with is getting people to feel the actual fear of what's coming, and encourage them to act on that, possibly through personal sacrifice. Which is great. But in the name of what is this happening ? Just fear of extinction. Very justified, but uninspiring to most. People will just do everything in their power to turn a blind eye to that level of grimness.

How could we have both the urgency he so well manages to conjure, and a sense of fighting for a higher purpose ?

That seems so crucial to me. 

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/25/20 7:50 AM as a reply to Olivier.
So, what was most impressive to me during this lock down was : how quickly people and behaviors can change if there is truely a sense of urgency in both the population and the executive power.

In the United States during this pandemic, we've managed to make science optional, depending on your politics, and here this is the major limiting factor on the climate change front, too. It's very depressing and very dangerous.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/25/20 8:49 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yeah, what can you do about your health issues, if you are denying that they're there ? 
It's incredible how far ignorance will go. It will go all the way. It will destroy everything if need be to stay comfortable.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/27/20 11:36 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Worse - staying healthy has literally become an inconvenience in many places in the US. And thus keeping your fellow human beings healthy has become inconvenient. There is also a series of conspiracy theories about the coronavirus afoot - it's caused by 5G cellular, or that it's just a fake news thing perpetrated by either the government or the so-called fake news media.

We have issues.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/27/20 11:47 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Humans are an inconvenience.

That's the root of neoliberalism.

Its role is to adapt humans to the rate of self propelled progress of technology.

Imo, those conspiracies are right in their intuitions, but confused in their explanations.

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/27/20 11:48 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Um, no.

emoticon

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/27/20 12:01 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
To which part ?

RE: Uncharted Territory
Answer
6/27/20 12:12 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:
So, what was most impressive to me during this lock down was : how quickly people and behaviors can change if there is truely a sense of urgency in both the population and the executive power. The reason why people abdicated their freedoms is because they believed it was justified and necessary. That's they key point. It wasn't unreasonable in the face of the situation. 

That was incredible to me : in france, within one day, everything stopped and people would get fined if they lert home. Because the government decided so. I could feel the enormous power there.

If they felt compelled to, the powers in place could cut consumption by five within days. They could turn the whole thing over. That's what i learned here. I didn't really realize that.

If tomorrow everyone wakes up and the powers in place all share a great concern for the fact that ... etc., Climate change will kill everyone...  and say that to the general public with as firm a voice as they did with the corona threat ; as well as take the the necessary measures, which are of the scale of the ones we've seen - then people will DEFINITELY follow, gladly so, because when they are convinced of the righteousness of some measures, and are forced to comply strictly, they just do it. Just like we've seen.

But they won't if there isn't a sense of urgency of the kind which was present right before lockdown. Unfortunately humans are not wired to feel urgency for longer  term problems... However much worse those might be...

I'm surprised that even in enlightened communities such as this one, people don't seem to grasp the seriousness of the predicament. 

Tim, have you heard of extinction rebellion ? You might be interested in looking up Roger Hallam their founder. Interesting speaker. He has spent five years studying how change of the scale needed has happened in history.