Uncharted Territory

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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
To start this topic, I'll paraphrase my friend Vincent Horn: "This is what we practice for."

Am I right?
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

I'm concerned that you may be suicidal, Chris, considering death an alternative. Death is just not an alternative, and i speak as one who has at various points tried to avoid rebirth like the plague. Maybe you've got the chops to pull it off, but still, you're probably just going to be reborn in some damn Pure Land bardo anyway, at this point, with some damn Buddha type teaching you all over again to watch your breath. I don't see an alternative to "bring it on," either, here in these bodies.

Well, maybe running away screaming. But then people give me shit for being out in public during a pandemic, spreading germs and panic. So yeah, seriously, thinking it all the way through, no alternative but to shelter in place. This is why we practice, it's game time. Bring it on. It's already done wonders for agnostic, in my humble opinion. The monkeys may end up with a warlord or something, in the short term, but as long as it's a drunken warlord with his eye on the dot, who stays fat and happy, that's probably for the best too.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Dear Tim,

Thank you for your concern! I am not, nor will I be, considering suicide. It's just not my thing. I was thinking in terms of probabilities and Boolean logic, and then I typed the offending sentence. I'm sorry. I'll work harder to communicate with more concern for everyone's possible reaction to my words.

Yours in solidarity,

CM
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Dear Tim,

Thank you for your concern! I am not, nor will I be, considering suicide. It's just not my thing. I was thinking in terms of probabilities and Boolean logic, and then I typed the offending sentence. I'm sorry. I'll work harder to communicate with more concern for everyone's possible reaction to my words.

Yours in solidarity,

CM
Well, see, there you go, it was just a language thing. In Boolean logic, death is a 0, so if I'd recognized your angle I wouldn't have given it a moment's thought, no value change, no problem. I was misreading you anyway, thinking you were treating death as a 1, so forgive me for that. And thank you for the reassurance, in any case.

yours in these uncharted waters,
tf
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 597 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:

What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

Really, this is how things always are, though there is now a more compelling narrative. The human story includes death, and it can happen at any time. In the middle of this there could be some other disaster that puts to shame the wake of this virus. Who knows? Always practice like your life depends on it. In some ways it does. The opportunity for compassion is omnipresent and boundless. All resistance to how things are is an opportunity for inquiry. In my experience, the dharmakaya points back at it its own impermanence/unity all of the time, in every facet, in every moment. I'm ready to show up for whatever that is. 

I'm with you: Bring it on.
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 680 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:

Really, this is how things always are, though there is now a more compelling narrative. The human story includes death, and it can happen at any time. In the middle of this there could be some other disaster that puts to shame the wake of this virus. Who knows? Always practice like your life depends on it. In some ways it does. The opportunity for compassion is omnipresent and boundless. All resistance to how things are is an opportunity for inquiry. In my experience, the dharmakaya points back at it its own impermanence/unity all of the time, in every facet, in every moment. I'm ready to show up for whatever that is. 

I'm with you: Bring it on.

So this is indicative of my recent conundrum whether to try and remember what my "big issue" was last night and continue from there or let the newness of the day really sink in. So for me, uncharted territory is a choice.
Tim Farrington, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:
Chris Marti:

What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

Really, this is how things always are, though there is now a more compelling narrative. The human story includes death, and it can happen at any time. In the middle of this there could be some other disaster that puts to shame the wake of this virus. Who knows? Always practice like your life depends on it. In some ways it does. The opportunity for compassion is omnipresent and boundless. All resistance to how things are is an opportunity for inquiry. In my experience, the dharmakaya points back at it its own impermanence/unity all of the time, in every facet, in every moment. I'm ready to show up for whatever that is. 

I'm with you: Bring it on.

This feels like a moment of review, on this thread for me, looking back almost five months after Chris began it, to see what has held up. And for me, that is, this morning:

Acceptance, and patience;

a busload of faith;

and always practicing like your life depends on it, because reality really is always this bad, we just have some exceptionally vivid headlines for it right now.

This is why we practice, to remember these things when the shit is hitting the fan. And the fan is always spinning, and the shit is always flying.

For the karmic record, I'm less inclined to say "Bring it on," lol, as it will be brought in any case. But given that it's brought: Hello, shit, glad to meet you. Come here often?

love, tim
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curious, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 904 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

I'm watching the supply chains. Particular for the health system, distribution of the agricultural surplus, and heating. And whether means of exchange continue to work.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I'm watching the supply chains. Particular for the health system, distribution of the agricultural surplus, and heating.

Yeah, great point, if I can be serious for a minute. Those do bear watching. Believe it or not, that's a big part of what I for a living, for one particular commodity industry and its end markets. 
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.
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curious, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 904 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.

Yeah, it's worse than that, I think. This is the death of financial markets capitalism.  20% to 30% is just the first wave. After that their suppliers go bust, and their suppliers. And of course the negative demand effect from unemployment will be huge.  Everthing is so interconnected and overleveraged now, compared to he 1930s, it's a real worry.  And having multi-trillion dollar bailouts every ten years is not sustainable. I see three principal scenarios for how this ends.

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 

2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

3. Socialism - Something like providing everyone with a universal basic income, recovering the looted simulus money through wealth taxes, having mixed public/private sector model, and move as much as possible to online business and automation. Basically we have to totally rebalance our banking and productive sectors, and truly ride the technological change to a new type of society, instead of being stuck in the past. Markets can't do this on their own - it needs heavy state intervention to support it.

Whatever happens, the economy of 'things' is dead. The only thing that will keep us going is realising we never needed all that crap we bought, and we can live simply and cheaply and have a really high standard of life after all. All we need is the four requisites (plus energy and sewerage), and a smartphone and a big flatscreen. Simplicity in the home, complexity in the servers. Restraint in private spaces, luxury in public spaces. 

So we may have to find different ways to use the agricultural and manufacturing surplus. Instead of employing people to build malls, sell barbie dolls, advertise fast food, and promote ocean cruises, we may need to employ them to build online games, create virtual environments, offer online grief counselling, drive delivery drones, grow organic food in cities, repair the environment, create public art and so on.  We need a massive realignment if we are to avoid a fairly destructive feudalism.

Ahh... rant over ... I feel better already!  

As you say, these are the times we practice for.  It's much easier if we are not clinging to weird mind-made objects.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

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This is the death of financial markets capitalism.

I suspect it's not. Financial markets can serve people, not the other way around. If we regulate markets fairly, and properly, there is economic good to come from that. The problem we've had over the past several decades is that financial markets have become playgrounds for speculators and manipulators, not for the average person, or for main street, which is comprised of real economy businesses (manufacturers, for example) that need investment services, liquidity, and more efficient asset allocation.

Personally, I would like to see a major reorientation of the avaricious, modern American capitalism that is predatory and serves those who already have, not those who need and have not. A real and deep recognition that we're all in this society together would be nice, but if that's not possible because some people can't figure it out, then regulation with teeth, real, sharp teeth, is the way to go.
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curious, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

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Yes I don't think financial markets will disappear - I agree they perform a very useful function.  But they will have to be severly tamed to prevent this ongoing exposure to overleveraging, which seems baked in to the business model at the moment. Regulations don't seem to have done the trick; too easy to capture the regulators.  Also, I think central banks will need to move to providing stimulus through UBI-type payments, not just bank bailouts, as the bailouts clearly encourage more of the same overleveraging.  Anyway, not really a dharma conversation ....   
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Wow, I didn't think I would actually live to see financial market capitalism fall. I just hope that it won't be too painful for those who are already in great need before a new system is put in place. I won't miss the capitalism per se. I will certainly not miss the religion of the Holy Market That Fixes Everything With Its Divine Hand.
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Another thing maybe none of us quite expected to live to see so vividly is something on the scale of the influenza pandemic of 1918-1919, which killed more people in its couple years than died in WWI. The timing was interesting for me, because I had just finished reading David Quammen's book "Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Pandemic," which I highly recommend for the larger ecological/evolutionary context of these interesting times we live in. Quammen is a "nature writer" who has never written a non-interesting piece; he goes to the heart of what he's interested in, quite literally, talks to all the right people in depth, gets the big picture as clearly as anyone, and writes with exquisite lucidity, and even a genuine thread of humor. (His "Song of the Dodo," for instance, is the funniest book you will ever read about the current wave of human-related mass extinctions.) He understands not just the ecology and evolution, but also people, and the process of science, and politics.

I have started in on John Barry's classic, state-of-the-art study of the 1918 pandemic, "The Great Influenza." Barry starts with a protracted consideration of the history of infectious disease research in the U.S., and uses the Johns Hopkins labs beginning in the 1880s in particular as sort of a long on-ramp to the main story. I'm still on the on-ramp, but one interesting tidbit so far is that the pandemic is often called "the Spanish flu," which is basically a politically-conditioned artefact of history and politics: Spain was a prominent country not fighting in WWI at that time, and so had a freer press without wartime censorship, and so the news literally came out from there. But the disease itself almost certainly had its origins elsewhere, and possibly even in the U.S. The dance of protracted govermental denials, distortions, and finger-pointing is nauseatingly familiar.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
 David Quammen's book "Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Pandemic,"

Second! I read this book about a year ago.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Curious:

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 

2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

Yeah, I'm concerned about these two possible outcomes. Of the two I worry most about Feudalism, or as I would describe a parallel outcome - Totalitarianism. I see a leaning in that direction in the U.S., with a denial of expertise and the slow but steadily increasing acceptance, by surprisingly many, of a personality cult.

Tim Farrington, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Not two, not one:
Chris Marti:
Hey, curious - another serious post here:

I hosted a webinar for a bunch of industry executives last week that featured the economists I use as experts on the... um, on the economy. They are quite sure that U.S. GDP will take a massive hit in the second quarter of this year, setting a record. They're talking GDP being down somewhere between 20 and 30%, much like what Goldman Sachs is predicting.

I never thought I'd live through the impeachment proceedings against a sitting president. I've lived through three. I never thought I'd live through massive economic dislocation akin to the Great Depression. I've lived through one and the second is happening right now. There's more of these kinds of things I never thought I'd live to see but I don't want to go too far down that path.

Yeah, it's worse than that, I think. This is the death of financial markets capitalism.  20% to 30% is just the first wave. After that their suppliers go bust, and their suppliers. And of course the negative demand effect from unemployment will be huge.  Everthing is so interconnected and overleveraged now, compared to he 1930s, it's a real worry.  And having multi-trillion dollar bailouts every ten years is not sustainable. I see three principal scenarios for how this ends.

1. Statism - Something breaks or enough confidence goes so the value of money disappears, and our systems sieze up. Markets and supply chains fail. Then we have to nationalise industries and conscript workers so that we can put the assets to use to get everone fed. 



if we don't already have militias and district gvernors in open reblllion at that point issuing their own currency, and enforcing this with their own men under arms.
2. Feudalism - A few politicians, bankers and industry moguls lord live high off the hog from stimulus money, and distribute a little bit of largess to keep the rest of us going. This is a pretend economy, so it inexorably slumps over time, and requires more and more bailout. Some fly corporate jets and others grow oats, beans, turnips, and barley. This is the worst scenario IMHO, as it is least sustainable - so the end game is probably mass violence, either as resistance, or as a dualistic distraction orchestrated by the aristos.

follow the money, indeed.
3. Socialism - Something like providing everyone with a universal basic income, recovering the looted simulus money through wealth taxes, having mixed public/private sector model, and move as much as possible to online business and automation. Basically we have to totally rebalance our banking and productive sectors, and truly ride the technological change to a new type of society, instead of being stuck in the past. Markets can't do this on their own - it needs heavy state intervention to support it.

like that's going to happen?

The main thing as I see it, Malcom is the slope of the human population. It is a classic population curve, the kind you see in many species over time, and in every one of the cases so far the next phase of the curve is a precipitate drop in population on a spectacular scale. We have been telling ourselves we can be unique, ecologically speaking, and somehow level off and sustain the present population, at best. But meanwhile, the curve continues upward.
Whatever happens, the economy of 'things' is dead. The only thing that will keep us going is realising we never needed all that crap we bought, and we can live simply and cheaply and have a really high standard of life after all. All we need is the four requisites (plus energy and sewerage), and a smartphone and a big flatscreen. Simplicity in the home, complexity in the servers. Restraint in private spaces, luxury in public spaces. 

So we may have to find different ways to use the agricultural and manufacturing surplus. Instead of employing people to build malls, sell barbie dolls, advertise fast food, and promote ocean cruises, we may need to employ them to build online games, create virtual environments, offer online grief counselling, drive delivery drones, grow organic food in cities, repair the environment, create public art and so on.  We need a massive realignment if we are to avoid a fairly destructive feudalism.

Ahh... rant over ... I feel better already!  

not to poop the party, amigo, but if you feel better, you aren't in deep enough yet.
As you say, these are the times we practice for.  It's much easier if we are not clinging to weird mind-made objects.
 amen. And thanks to Chris also for setting off this cascade in the first place.

love
Tim
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
When I landed in Kathmandu, for my month long at Panditarama lumbini, I had already started reading Servigne. I was horrified at the nightmarish pollution in this city, the chaos. It's the most polluted city in the world currently, or second. 

I just felt so viscerally that what he was saying was true. I stumbled upon this article here, and it resonated so strongly with me. I wanted to share it with you. It really made me ask myselves questions like : if I must die, what should I die for ? 

I thought about that again during the hardcore retreat, and there was a moment when I knew what I was read to die for, although I couldn't have put it in words, perhaps for the first time. It was a strong moment. The fact of knowing viscerally that it's possible to be ok with dying for a cause, or rather to be so devoted to something that you would give your life for it, was really powerful. I imagine many parents feel that... 


https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
When you know all these numbers and figures and trends, watching an exchange like this at Davos 2020 is just hilarious : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51u4JECraLQ

T
here is a wonderful tchadian woman saying that they don't want technology, they have the traditional knowledge to restore the forest which is their source of food, and that they should just be left alone to do that - they don't care about internet or electricity or progress. Next to her is a big guy from Rockefeller whatever who explains they are gonna install micro-tech bullcrap to create cheap electricity so that everyone in africa can have it !!!! Yey !!!! She says : we have no food. We don't want technology...

Other german big guy talking about cutting emissions a bit after Greta's speech. Chinese government official explaining that creativity from the private sector will need to find the solutions for climate change because we ain't gonna stop chasing after growth, sorry.
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Chris Marti, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I used to work in Silicon Valley and I still follow those folks. In my opinion, they are the people who are potentially the most dangerous and the most helpful to us, now and into the future. They have been allowed massive amounts of freedom and they sometimes get it right and other times cause huge ripples of pain. They have given us vast stores of information and they have fostered untold amounts of disinformation. They have shrunk the globe and they have taken our freedom and privacy. They have ridiculous money and very little of it trickles down. They will likely crown the world's first trillionaire, which angers and saddens me. Trillions in personal wealth is... profane.
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Hmm, again I forgot to save my answer and it got swallowed, I suck at this...

Take 2 :

I think you mean obscene ?

How do you imagine new technologies taking a part in the future ? If we need to cut energy consumption by 86% basically right now to avoid +2 by 2050, give or take - cf Jean-Baptiste Fressoz, historian of sciences and industry - I think that just implies giving up high-tech  and embracing low-tech (although, I don't really see higher techs than plants, humans, and life forms in general, but anyways...).

Sure, they have their + and - sides, but they are in any case intrinsically linked with the whole fossil-fueled system, they are part of this interconnected whole which includes the entire industrial complex. Can you build any kind of chip, processor, etc., without heavy industry ?  Could it be possible to keep the upsides of this system, and throw away the downsides ? It sounds a bit like wanting to keep the apparently nice aspects of dualistic perception while wanting to get enlightened. How ?

Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ? I think it was just a different homeostasis, and that we shouldn't necesarilly fear a change of equilibium. {High material comfort + low sense of belonging, community, meaning, sacredness} doesn't necessarily seem like a better equation than {Low material comfort + high degree of meaningfulness, sacredness, community with life in human and non-human forms}. Although anyone with an interest in high-consumption lifestyles will try to prove otherwise - cf. the part in the "social collapse" article about the british ruling class and Hobbes. In fact, from an evolutionary standpoint, the latter having probably been closer to the actual living conditions of humans for most of history, it would make sense to imagine that this is how we would be happiest. To further this point, here is a funny and eloquent quote.


A Gaspesian (now Micmac) chief, in 1676, criticizes a group of French captains in Nova Scotia for the great esteem in which they hold French civilization.

"It is true that we have not always had the use of bread and of wine which you France produces ; but, in fact, before the arrival of the Franch in these parts, did not the Gaspesians live much longer than now ? And if we have not any longer amon us any of those old men of a hundred and thirty to forty years, it is only because we are gradually adopting your manner of living, for experience is making it very plain that those of us live longest who, despising your bread, your wine, and your brandy, are content with the natural food of beaver, of moose, of waterfowl, and fish, in accord with the custom of our ancestors and of all the Gaspesian nation. Learn now, my brother once for all, because I must open to thee my heart : there is no indian who does not consider himself infinitely more happy and more powerful than the French."

Haha.

Thoughts ?
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Chris Marti, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ?

Olivier, can you first please tell me what you mean by "worse off"? The question could refer to just about any version of the spectrum of human existence I can think of, so I'd like to know what part of the spectrum you're addressing. 
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ?

Olivier, can you first please tell me what you mean by "worse off"? The question could refer to just about any version of the spectrum of human existence I can think of, so I'd like to know what part of the spectrum you're addressing. 
The isobarycenter of all aspects of existence. 

emoticon 

It's not a very serious question. General sense of satisfaction with existence, sense of meaning, etc. 
Tim Farrington, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Chris Marti:
Related question : were we actually worst off in the middle-ages or thousands of years ago ?

Olivier, can you first please tell me what you mean by "worse off"? The question could refer to just about any version of the spectrum of human existence I can think of, so I'd like to know what part of the spectrum you're addressing. 
The isobarycenter of all aspects of existence. 

emoticon 

It's not a very serious question. General sense of satisfaction with existence, sense of meaning, etc. 


Chris: like so:



"Isobarycentre, exercice de barycentres "


CentroidProject SparkDefinition: an isobarycenter, also know as the center of gravity in Physics, is the average of equal masses placed at the point positions. The formula is to add all the points, and divide by the number of points. But fortunately, Project Spark has got a tile for that: "centroid". It needs an object set to work, so you'll have to put all your objects in an object set, or directly use each object (with the in-world picker/object variables and "plus"). Here's how this tile works:{object set...Centroid | Project Spark Wiki | Fandom https://projectspark.fandom.com/wiki/Centroid
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Chris Marti, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

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Olivier:

General sense of satisfaction with existence, sense of meaning, etc. 

Hmmm... this is pretty nebulous. Can you name some of the other independent variables? I've always been drawn to Maslow:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

One reason is that his hierarchy is not political or economic but broken into basic, psychological, and fulfillment segments.
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

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What do you mean "independent variables", I thought you were an arahat !?
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Chris Marti, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

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Statistically speaking  emoticon
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

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Let's use the Maslow model then.
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

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emoticon

or not.
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Not two, not one, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 904 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Olivier:
What do you mean "independent variables", I thought you were an arahat !?

Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Not two, not one:
Olivier:
What do you mean "independent variables", I thought you were an arahat !?

Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.

I don't understand. Isn't the judgment of one's peers more important?
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Not two, not one, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 904 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Nah, judgement doesn't matter at all.  Rather it's knowledge that matters (or wisdom, if you prefer).
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Not two, not one:
Nah, judgement doesn't matter at all.  Rather it's knowledge that matters (or wisdom, if you prefer).


as determined by whom? This gets circular fast, yes?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Not two, not one:
Nah, judgement doesn't matter at all.  Rather it's knowledge that matters (or wisdom, if you prefer).


as determined by whom? This gets circular fast, yes?

Ehm! Two sharks circling around you mate. Just sayn'! I'm out of here emoticon 
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
emoticon


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Chris Marti, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Two sharks circling around you mate.

They are only sharks by the standards of other sharks, not by the standards of non-sharks  emoticon

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Touche' emoticon 
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Touche' emoticon 

Sergeant Dusko, this bar has quietly filled up with officers and REMFs. I'm getting out of here before i punch somebody and lose my hard-re-won Lance Corporal rank. See you at the Skype cafe later, amigo. Do you copy?

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over and out.

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Olivier, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
A pretty good video - can you spot the bear watching bear porn ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7LDk4D3Q3U&feature=youtu.be
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
A pretty good video - can you spot the bear watching bear porn ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7LDk4D3Q3U&feature=youtu.be

Not through my black tears of despair, no.

Thanks, Olivier, for that utterly brutal but expertly produced vision of everything going to shit, with an ironic anthem to freedom soaring above through the poisoned skies. I am now going to pray for us all.

love, tim
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Olivier, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Well, sorry about that tim, I didn't make it though !

<3
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Well, sorry about that tim, I didn't make it though !

<3


you PROPOGATED it! The parable is this: the sower sows the seed.

love, tim

p.s. musical interlude   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efl0G4SUdiM

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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
2.7°C increase in global average temp now locked in according to conservative IPCC emoticon 

This really dwarves the corona situation.
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
2.7°C increase in global average temp now locked in according to conservative IPCC emoticon 

This really dwarves the corona situation.

Olivier,

I think what i freally want to keep studying is how to work under an oppressive totalitarian regime. What corona has taught us is that you can scare most of the people all of the time with a little nicely managed crisis, and how quickly we have abandonned our humanity in favor of guilty until prven innocent suspicion of every-fucking-one.

And don't dare protest in the streets without your fucking 6 foot gap.

took a knee at the National Anthem, when it was played at the local episcopalian church's white-assuagementofguilt-ceremony on Juneteenth. Just practicing.

love, tim
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
So, what was most impressive to me during this lock down was : how quickly people and behaviors can change if there is truely a sense of urgency in both the population and the executive power. The reason why people abdicated their freedoms is because they believed it was justified and necessary. That's they key point. It wasn't unreasonable in the face of the situation. 

That was incredible to me : in france, within one day, everything stopped and people would get fined if they lert home. Because the government decided so. I could feel the enormous power there.

If they felt compelled to, the powers in place could cut consumption by five within days. They could turn the whole thing over. That's what i learned here. I didn't really realize that.

If tomorrow everyone wakes up and the powers in place all share a great concern for the fact that ... etc., Climate change will kill everyone...  and say that to the general public with as firm a voice as they did with the corona threat ; as well as take the the necessary measures, which are of the scale of the ones we've seen - then people will DEFINITELY follow, gladly so, because when they are convinced of the righteousness of some measures, and are forced to comply strictly, they just do it. Just like we've seen.

But they won't if there isn't a sense of urgency of the kind which was present right before lockdown. Unfortunately humans are not wired to feel urgency for longer  term problems... However much worse those might be...

I'm surprised that even in enlightened communities such as this one, people don't seem to grasp the seriousness of the predicament. 

Tim, have you heard of extinction rebellion ? You might be interested in looking up Roger Hallam their founder. Interesting speaker. He has spent five years studying how change of the scale needed has happened in history. His answer is mass civil desobedience.

He is a powerful speaker but a big problem is that he lacks the intense meaningfulness which gandhi/king etc. Could bring along. All that Hallam works with is getting people to feel the actual fear of what's coming, and encourage them to act on that, possibly through personal sacrifice. Which is great. But in the name of what is this happening ? Just fear of extinction. Very justified, but uninspiring to most. People will just do everything in their power to turn a blind eye to that level of grimness.

How could we have both the urgency he so well manages to conjure, and a sense of fighting for a higher purpose ?

That seems so crucial to me. 
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
So, what was most impressive to me during this lock down was : how quickly people and behaviors can change if there is truely a sense of urgency in both the population and the executive power.

In the United States during this pandemic, we've managed to make science optional, depending on your politics, and here this is the major limiting factor on the climate change front, too. It's very depressing and very dangerous.
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Yeah, what can you do about your health issues, if you are denying that they're there ? 
It's incredible how far ignorance will go. It will go all the way. It will destroy everything if need be to stay comfortable.
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Worse - staying healthy has literally become an inconvenience in many places in the US. And thus keeping your fellow human beings healthy has become inconvenient. There is also a series of conspiracy theories about the coronavirus afoot - it's caused by 5G cellular, or that it's just a fake news thing perpetrated by either the government or the so-called fake news media.

We have issues.
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Humans are an inconvenience.

That's the root of neoliberalism.

Its role is to adapt humans to the rate of self propelled progress of technology.

Imo, those conspiracies are right in their intuitions, but confused in their explanations.
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Um, no.

emoticon
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
To which part ?
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Humans are an inconvenience.

That's the root of neoliberalism.

Its role is to adapt humans to the rate of self propelled progress of technology.

Imo, those conspiracies are right in their intuitions, but confused in their explanations.

   The root of neoliberalism is: markets rule! People are what you feed into the machines. Money is the measure of all things. Thus, in the end, we will have infinite money and no people. Jeff bezos is on track to be the world's first trillionaire. Then zuckerman, then larry page.

   Our true enemies are google, facebook and amazon. All three should be destroyed without remainder. It would be a start. 

   The powers that be currently ordering people to stay home could mandate a 95% decrease in energy use, should they develop the will. Unfortunately, it is already way too late. Think of a pond being covered by an algae bloom that doubles every day. It starts infinitesimally, but the day before it is completely covered, it is only half covered, and two days before only a quarter covered. The doubling process appears to accelerate.

t


"Population, when unchecked, increases in a geometrical ratio."

~thomas malthus, 1798 



"Let no one ignorant of geometry enter here."

~sign over the entrance to plato's academy
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Yeah,  and the thinking behind markets rule is based on a skewed understanding of darwinism turned into a political ideology.

Yeah terry, it's way too late for many things. It's too late to avoid 2 billion deaths by 2100. Ok. But we can avoid 5 billion.

I'm 26 you know. In 50 years, when the south of france has become inhabitable, and we kill anyone who tries to cross the borders, etc., I will still be here, perhaps i will have children...

My generation is not gonna let this happen without an ACTUAL fight. 3.5 percent of the population is all it takes to be scary... 

Apathy is becoming unbearable.
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Yeah,  and the thinking behind markets rule is based on a skewed understanding of darwinism turned into a political ideology.

Yeah terry, it's way too late for many things. It's too late to avoid 2 billion deaths by 2100. Ok. But we can avoid 5 billion.

I'm 26 you know. In 50 years, when the south of france has become inhabitable, and we kill anyone who tries to cross the borders, etc., I will still be here, perhaps i will have children...

My generation is not gonna let this happen without an ACTUAL fight. 3.5 percent of the population is all it takes to be scary... 

Apathy is becoming unbearable.

   Your generation is the real problem. Narcissistic to the core. Throwing away their freedom and privacy with both hands, and digging their heads further and further into the sand. Their response to diminishing values is to get while the getting is good. Enjoy those beaches while you still can. Sit around in a drum circle and dissipate any possible positive energy indulging in casual sex and frequent drunkeness and drug use. In hawaii we have choke tourists of the gringo/gringa variety, upper middle class scions who feel the world exists to entertain them and give them whatever they like, because they are beautiful and have straight teeth. They contribute nothing and use up valuable resources with absolutely no sense of karmic debt.

   If you are still alive fifty years from now - unlikely - you wil be a very different person from the one you are now. I see the survivors of this generation turning good-natured hedonism into a degree of seflishness which bodes poorly for elder generations, for whom they have little respect. Apathy will turn into naked self-interest. (The Prisoner's Dilemma.)

   Of course, I am sure you are the exception, and your friends. (smile)


terry
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
Olivier:
Yeah,  and the thinking behind markets rule is based on a skewed understanding of darwinism turned into a political ideology.

Yeah terry, it's way too late for many things. It's too late to avoid 2 billion deaths by 2100. Ok. But we can avoid 5 billion.

I'm 26 you know. In 50 years, when the south of france has become inhabitable, and we kill anyone who tries to cross the borders, etc., I will still be here, perhaps i will have children...

My generation is not gonna let this happen without an ACTUAL fight. 3.5 percent of the population is all it takes to be scary... 

Apathy is becoming unbearable.

   Your generation is the real problem. Narcissistic to the core. Throwing away their freedom and privacy with both hands, and digging their heads further and further into the sand. Their response to diminishing values is to get while the getting is good. Enjoy those beaches while you still can. Sit around in a drum circle and dissipate any possible positive energy indulging in casual sex and frequent drunkeness and drug use. In hawaii we have choke tourists of the gringo/gringa variety, upper middle class scions who feel the world exists to entertain them and give them whatever they like, because they are beautiful and have straight teeth. They contribute nothing and use up valuable resources with absolutely no sense of karmic debt.

   If you are still alive fifty years from now - unlikely - you wil be a very different person from the one you are now. I see the survivors of this generation turning good-natured hedonism into a degree of seflishness which bodes poorly for elder generations, for whom they have little respect. Apathy will turn into naked self-interest. (The Prisoner's Dilemma.)

   Of course, I am sure you are the exception, and your friends. (smile)


terry


“Adults forget the depths of languor into which the adolescent mind decends with ease. They are prone to undervalue the mental growth that occurs during daydreaming and aimless wandering” 
― E.O. Wilson
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Olivier:
So, what was most impressive to me during this lock down was : how quickly people and behaviors can change if there is truely a sense of urgency in both the population and the executive power. The reason why people abdicated their freedoms is because they believed it was justified and necessary. That's they key point. It wasn't unreasonable in the face of the situation. 

That was incredible to me : in france, within one day, everything stopped and people would get fined if they lert home. Because the government decided so. I could feel the enormous power there.

If they felt compelled to, the powers in place could cut consumption by five within days. They could turn the whole thing over. That's what i learned here. I didn't really realize that.

If tomorrow everyone wakes up and the powers in place all share a great concern for the fact that ... etc., Climate change will kill everyone...  and say that to the general public with as firm a voice as they did with the corona threat ; as well as take the the necessary measures, which are of the scale of the ones we've seen - then people will DEFINITELY follow, gladly so, because when they are convinced of the righteousness of some measures, and are forced to comply strictly, they just do it. Just like we've seen.

But they won't if there isn't a sense of urgency of the kind which was present right before lockdown. Unfortunately humans are not wired to feel urgency for longer  term problems... However much worse those might be...

I'm surprised that even in enlightened communities such as this one, people don't seem to grasp the seriousness of the predicament. 

Tim, have you heard of extinction rebellion ? You might be interested in looking up Roger Hallam their founder. Interesting speaker. He has spent five years studying how change of the scale needed has happened in history. His answer is mass civil desobedience.

He is a powerful speaker but a big problem is that he lacks the intense meaningfulness which gandhi/king etc. Could bring along. All that Hallam works with is getting people to feel the actual fear of what's coming, and encourage them to act on that, possibly through personal sacrifice. Which is great. But in the name of what is this happening ? Just fear of extinction. Very justified, but uninspiring to most. People will just do everything in their power to turn a blind eye to that level of grimness.

How could we have both the urgency he so well manages to conjure, and a sense of fighting for a higher purpose ?

That seems so crucial to me. 

    I listened to a talk yesterday by zennist daniel leighton, about the work of joanna macy, who is one of my favorite buddhists. Joanna theorizes about "deep time" which makes me love her, but another of her enthusiasms is taking care of nuclear waste. She believes that religious communities would be good repositories of nuclear waste because they would faithfully keep it contained over the 100,000s of years that it was dangerous.

  My refection on this was that, since the human race is unlikely to last in its present form more than the next hundred years, why bother?

   My feeling is that the demise or drastic pruning of the human population would be salutary for the health of Life generally. More species are dying out now than when the asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs.  We are the disease and perhaps coronavirus is the cure.

   I also recently listened to a book by edmund o. wilson which was about "humanism." He makes the point, never supported because totally taken for granted as obvious fact, that the human race is the pinnacle of evolution, a very fortunate outcome for Life and the universe generally. Given that the human population has literally tripled in my lifetime, from 2.5 billion to (today) 7.8 billion, this astounding increase in only three generations is a neoplasm, a disease process. Unsustainable doesn't begin to describe it (michael moore has a new movie out supposed to be very disturbing). I suppose cancer tissue similarly regards itself as exceptional, vigorous and vibrant.

   Global warming has gotten insane, with summer temps right now above the arctic circle in siberia above 100 degrees F (winter temps there are -90F, quite a swing). Buildings are falling down because everything is built on what was formerly called "permafrost." In fifty years there will be no coral reefs and no beaches.

   The good news is that it won't hurt the planet, or Life generally, both quite tough. It will make human "civilization" a thing of the past, however. Kali juga will come to an end.

   Yay.


terry
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
... the human race is the pinnacle of evolution...

Utter nonsense. Since when did evolution start having long term goals? Are you sure Wilson believes that? Can you quote him here on this, terry?

EDIT; humans add to the population of the earth at a compounding rate, just like the coronavirus. There may be a vaccine for the latter but not the former. Question: how do we ethically and effectively address the former?
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
... the human race is the pinnacle of evolution...

Utter nonsense. Since when did evolution start having long term goals? Are you sure Wilson believes that? Can you quote him here on this, terry?

EDIT; humans add to the population of the earth at a compounding rate, just like the coronavirus. There may be a vaccine for the latter but not the former. Question: how do we ethically and effectively address the former?

   All humanists believe this... everyone believes it. Yes, of course the basic biology is natural selection. From a biological perspective, clearly insects are the pinnacle of evolution. Ants and termites in particular, even wilson knows this. But he can't help himself. The book was in audio and the humanism standpoint utterly pervasive, so he is quoted as saying more or less enlightened things; you need to bear in mind that he sees everything from hs standpoint of human superiority. Let me reiterate that virtually everyone does this. Even ecologists who take the view of interrelated life want to manipulate the web to advantage humans.

   The experiment that is humanity has already failed.

terry


“One planet, one experiment.” 
― Edward O. Wilson


“If all mankind were to disappear, the world would regenerate back to the rich state of equilibrium that existed ten thousand years ago. If insects were to vanish, the environment would collapse into chaos.” 
― E.O. Wilson


“Humanity is a biological species, living in a biological environment, because like all species, we are exquisitely adapted in everything: from our behavior, to our genetics, to our physiology, to that particular environment in which we live. The earth is our home. Unless we preserve the rest of life, as a sacred duty, we will be endangering ourselves by destroying the home in which we evolved, and on which we completely depend.” 
― Edward Osborne Wilson


This last quote in particular shows how deluded this man is... how well has preserving life worked out for us so far?

t
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
“Humanity is a biological species, living in a biological environment, because like all species, we are exquisitely adapted in everything: from our behavior, to our genetics, to our physiology, to that particular environment in which we live. The earth is our home. Unless we preserve the rest of life, as a sacred duty, we will be endangering ourselves by destroying the home in which we evolved, and on which we completely depend.” 

― Edward Osborne Wilson

I suspect Wilson believes human beings are "superior" (not his word) because we have managed to develop engineering - a capability that has allowed us to have a much larger recent effect on the planet than other species in regard to climate and the general health of the biome. I'm not sure Wilson believes human beings represent the pinnacle of evolution. This nuance is important, I think. For Wilson to believe the latter would be astounding for a biologist and is why I flagged your comment. The former belief is, as you say, pervasive.

Do you have any thoughts on this distinction?

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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I think this is what Oliver was talking about - income and fertility are inversely related:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Income_and_fertility
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
... the human race is the pinnacle of evolution...

Utter nonsense. Since when did evolution start having long term goals? Are you sure Wilson believes that? Can you quote him here on this, terry?

EDIT; humans add to the population of the earth at a compounding rate, just like the coronavirus. There may be a vaccine for the latter but not the former. Question: how do we ethically and effectively address the former?

here the backround is that we are brilliant, blessed geniuses...but he doesn't realize we have no choice as "biological" creatures...what he fears has already occurred, how can this not be obvious to him? his optimism is delusional, or put on...whenever a scientist or economist says "I believe" they are really fixing to make stuff up...science is all imagination anyway, scientists interpret experimental results artistically and philosophically while claiming they are disseminating facts...like historians repeating the same old bullshit stories which they know are bullshit but they are "received wisdom" and hence inviolate, however false...our heritage...to give up imagining is to forget the past, forget the future...but I digress...

t





“I believe that in the process of locating new avenues of creative thought, we will also arrive at an existential conservatism. It is worth asking repeatedly: Where are our deepest roots? We are, it seems, Old World, catarrhine primates, brilliant emergent animals, defined genetically by our unique origins, blessed by our newfound biological genius, and secure in our homeland if we wish to make it so. What does it all mean? This is what it all means: To the extent that we depend on prosthetic devices to keep ourselves and the biosphere alive, we will render everything fragile. To the extent that we banish the rest of life, we will impoverish our own species for all time. And if we should surrender our genetic nature to machine-aided ratiocination, and our ethics and art and our very meaning to a habit of careless discursion in the name of progress, imagining ourselves godlike and absolved from our ancient heritage, we will become nothing.” 

― Edward O. Wilson, Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Yes, you're right.

But who are the billions who are gonna die in the century to come ?

Not europeans, not americans...

And that is just so sad emoticon 

I feel so much revolt everyday. I live in a small village in burgundy. 

Since i arrived a year+ ago, i have bee' able to notice a drastic change : people's cars are getting bigger and bigger. And two amazon lockers have been installed in the public space. And a giant flashing multicolor strobe light has been installed at the top of the thousand year old, makestic tower which stands on top of the hill of the town center, in which the dukes of Montbard used to live. 

In fact, this change has mostly happened during lockdown. Because of the strict lockdown, people here have saved up a lot of money over 2 months. It seems they have decided to spend it on huge new generation american cars. (Thanks guys, btw)

...

I'm at a point where i'm seriously thinking aboit getting some pointy thing and going on a tire cutting streack you know emoticon

It would just feel so good ...
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Yes, you're right.

But who are the billions who are gonna die in the century to come ?

Not europeans, not americans...

And that is just so sad emoticon 

I feel so much revolt everyday. I live in a small village in burgundy. 

Since i arrived a year+ ago, i have bee' able to notice a drastic change : people's cars are getting bigger and bigger. And two amazon lockers have been installed in the public space. And a giant flashing multicolor strobe light has been installed at the top of the thousand year old, makestic tower which stands on top of the hill of the town center, in which the dukes of Montbard used to live. 

In fact, this change has mostly happened during lockdown. Because of the strict lockdown, people here have saved up a lot of money over 2 months. It seems they have decided to spend it on huge new generation american cars. (Thanks guys, btw)

...

I'm at a point where i'm seriously thinking aboit getting some pointy thing and going on a tire cutting streack you know emoticon

It would just feel so good ...


   good for the environment too...

   anarchy!

   roasting marshmallows while the city burns...

t


ps the obvious solution to overpopulation is not to have children, eh? the prisoner's dilemma, again... the individual is not incentivized to do the right thing for the group... 
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Terry, you are so wrong, With all due respect for my elders, sir.

The overpopulation thing : the people who have a lot of kids are poor people. The poorer one is, the more kids they will have, and conversely. 

I'm really not sure about having kids myself. Yes it's the obvious solution, but then, if people like me stop having kids, all that will be left are the kids of less moral and more stupid people. So i feel like there is a certain degree of responsability there. Not that i'm a big kid guy,on the contrary...
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Terry, you are so wrong, With all due respect for my elders, sir.

The overpopulation thing : the people who have a lot of kids are poor people. The poorer one is, the more kids they will have, and conversely. 

I'm really not sure about having kids myself. Yes it's the obvious solution, but then, if people like me stop having kids, all that will be left are the kids of less moral and more stupid people. So i feel like there is a certain degree of responsability there. Not that i'm a big kid guy,on the contrary...


   So, in your view, poor people are less moral and more stupid. If you were to reproduce yourself, that would be a good thing, and elevate the gene pool. Poor people have kids who are born stupid and immoral, lots of them.

   Your view is self-defeating. Stupid and immoral.

   And you're not a big kid guy, on the contrary...

   As I said, narcissistic to the core.

t
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Hmm that's not what i meant, but i see how what i wrote could be interpreted that way ........

Anyways, i won't try to defend myself, thank you for the compliments terry, and bye bye.
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
Olivier:
Terry, you are so wrong, With all due respect for my elders, sir.

The overpopulation thing : the people who have a lot of kids are poor people. The poorer one is, the more kids they will have, and conversely. 

I'm really not sure about having kids myself. Yes it's the obvious solution, but then, if people like me stop having kids, all that will be left are the kids of less moral and more stupid people. So i feel like there is a certain degree of responsability there. Not that i'm a big kid guy,on the contrary...


   So, in your view, poor people are less moral and more stupid. If you were to reproduce yourself, that would be a good thing, and elevate the gene pool. Poor people have kids who are born stupid and immoral, lots of them.

   Your view is self-defeating. Stupid and immoral.

   And you're not a big kid guy, on the contrary...

   As I said, narcissistic to the core.

t


   You can always tell a narcissist. They characteristically lack empathy for everyone but themselves and those like them. They want to improve the world to make it a more pleasant place for their class. These are the young people who rush back to bars and clubs, wear no masks and don't care that 80% of the deaths to covid19 are in people over 65, whom they will carelessly and indifferently infect, while deploring the lack of ventilators.

   Currently on the big island we have no tourists and no virus, a win win situation for us. Someone inevitably will let tourists back in, and the young ones will come bringing illness, we'll all get sick and many of us useless old folks will die prematurely, making more room and wealth for the young. A win win for them.

   Do, re, mi mi mi mi mi mi...

t.
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Wow, very astute terry, that's exactly me. Going to the clubs in hawai and whatnot. Just wanting to have fun at everbody else's expanse. 

I don't know, i feel like you just like fighting with people. 

I hope you don't get covid because of tourists.

Bye.
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Wow, very astute terry, that's exactly me. Going to the clubs in hawai and whatnot. Just wanting to have fun at everbody else's expanse. 

I don't know, i feel like you just like fighting with people. 

I hope you don't get covid because of tourists.

Bye.

   I meant to say, don't take it personally. I am sure you are not defined by the views you have just expressed. I have a 26 year old silversmith apprentice, actually she just turned 27, and I teach her 23 year old friend as well (beauty and cutie) We agree that black lives matter, but I have trouble feeling the same way about haoles. Trying to teach privileged vain hedonistic class representatives while remaining authentic in close proximity to nubile females has been a real challenge, not that I am complaining. It adds value to my usual solitude. But I am seriously thinking of moving to haiti and teaching black lives instead. I have a cousin who has been living there full time the last six years running a christian mission and have recently contacted him, telling him this. If I go I'll ask beauty and cutie if they want to come. You never know.

   I'm not fighting with you. I never agree with anyone, really. And I generally respond to statements I find most need challenging. I love to agree with goodness and kindness. Unfortunately I don't run across it very often.

   It is typical in hawaii that we generalize about classes and races, meaning no harm. We particularly make fun of blondes and portagees.

   Anyhows, I didn't mean to make points at your expense. On the other hand, I greatly prefer the company of poor people over that of the middle class, and always have. They are smarter and more moral.


terry
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
“Human existence may be simpler than we thought. There is no predestination, no unfathomed mystery of life. Demons and gods do not vie for our allegiance. Instead, we are self-made, independent, alone, and fragile, a biological species adapted to live in a biological world. What counts for long-term survival is intelligent self-understanding, based upon a greater independence of thought than that tolerated today even in our most advanced democratic societies.” 

― Edward O. Wilson, The Meaning of Human Existence
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
tonight's entertainment:


michael moore's new moview, planet of the humans, is available here for free:

https://planetofthehumans.com
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Ricky Lee Nuthman, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 92 Join Date: 4/22/18 Recent Posts
These are the young people who rush back to bars and clubs, wear no masks and don't care that 80% of the deaths to covid19 are in people over 65, whom they will carelessly and indifferently infect, while deploring the lack of ventilators.

I have taken to trying to adopt the perspective that people who do harmful things are behaving this way because of their own suffering. I know this, because I see it in myself whenever I act carelessly. 

Like if someone cuts you off in the street, rushing around other cars beeping and yelling angrily. In the old days, I might have said "What an asshole". But today I think "Wow, how unfortunate that he is going through that". Of course it isn't always automatic. I am just saying that I 'try' to adopt this perspective. I don't know if it's the right one or not, but it cured my road rage years ago when it snapped in my head.

It's the same with the pandemic. People are scared, confused, willfully ignorant and all kinds of things. Everyone is behaving based on their own 'safety strategies' to avoid the arising of aversion. There are no 'assholes' out there - only the sick and well. Even though on the surface this seems to be not very useful. Especially when people kill others with their sickness.

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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ricky Lee Nuthman:
These are the young people who rush back to bars and clubs, wear no masks and don't care that 80% of the deaths to covid19 are in people over 65, whom they will carelessly and indifferently infect, while deploring the lack of ventilators.

I have taken to trying to adopt the perspective that people who do harmful things are behaving this way because of their own suffering. I know this, because I see it in myself whenever I act carelessly. 

Like if someone cuts you off in the street, rushing around other cars beeping and yelling angrily. In the old days, I might have said "What an asshole". But today I think "Wow, how unfortunate that he is going through that". Of course it isn't always automatic. I am just saying that I 'try' to adopt this perspective. I don't know if it's the right one or not, but it cured my road rage years ago when it snapped in my head.

It's the same with the pandemic. People are scared, confused, willfully ignorant and all kinds of things. Everyone is behaving based on their own 'safety strategies' to avoid the arising of aversion. There are no 'assholes' out there - only the sick and well. Even though on the surface this seems to be not very useful. Especially when people kill others with their sickness.

"there are no assholes out there"... perhaps all the assholes are in here...perhaps there are no assholes any more because everyone is an asshole...


simone weil wrote the following in france in 1942 (from "gravity and grace"); she was 33:

‘There is every degree of distance between the creature and God. A distance in which the love of God is impossible: matter, plants, animals. Evil is so complete there that it destroys itself: there is no longer any evil: mirror of divine innocence. We are at the point where love is just possible. It is a great privilege since the love which unites is in proportion to the distance. God has created a world which is not the best possible but which contains the whole range of good and evil. We are at the point where it is as bad as possible because beyond is the stage where evil becomes innocence.’
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
“Imagine that the keeper of a huge, strong beast notices what makes it angry, what it desires, how it has to be approached and handled, the circumstances and the conditions under which it becomes particularly fierce or calm, what provokes its typical cries, and what tones of voice make it gentle or wild. Once he's spent enough time in the creature's company to acquire all this information, he calls it knowledge, forms it into a systematic branch of expertise, and starts to teach it, despite total ignorance, in fact, about which of the creature's attitudes and desires is commendable or deplorable, good or bad, moral or immoral. His usage of all these terms simply conforms to the great beast's attitudes, and he describes things as good or bad according to its likes and dislikes, and can't justify his usage of the terms any further, but describes as right and good the things which are merely indispensable, since he hasn't realised and can't explain to anyone else how vast a gulf there is between necessity and goodness.”


― Plato, The Republic



from the introduction to "gravity and grace," simone weil


Here below, a thousand relative objects bearing the label of absolute come between the soul and God. So long as man does not consent to become nothing in order to be everything he needs idols. ‘Idolatry is a vital necessity in the cave.’ And among these idols the social one of the collective soul is the most powerful and dangerous. Most sins can be traced back to the social element. They spring from a thirst to appear and to dominate. It is not that Simone Weil rejects the social element as such; she knows that our environment, roots and traditions form bridges, metaxu between earth and heaven; what she repudiates is the totalitarian city—symbolized by the ‘Great Beast’ of Plato and the Beast of the Apocalypse—whose power and prestige usurp God’s place in the soul. Whether it shows itself under a conservative or a revolutionary aspect, whether it consists of adoring the present or the future city, social idolatry always tends to stifle and to replace the true mystic tradition. All the persecutions of prophets and saints are due to it; through it Antigone and Joan of Arc were condemned and Jesus Christ crucified. The social Beast offers man a substitute for religion which allows him to transcend his individuality without surrendering his self and so, at small cost, to dispense with God; a social imitation of the highest virtues is possible by which they are immediately degraded into pharisaism: ‘The pharisee is he who is virtuous out of obedience to the Great Beast.’
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
from "gravity and grace" simone weil:



To accept a void in ourselves is supernatural. Where is the energy to be found for an act which has nothing to counter- balance it? The energy has to come from elsewhere. Yet first there must be a tearing out, something desperate has to take place, the void must be created. Void: the dark night.



We must give up everything which is not grace and not even desire grace.

The extinction of desire (Buddhism)—or detachment—or amor fati—or desire for the absolute good—these all amount to the same: to empty desire, finality of all content, to desire in the void, to desire without any wishes.

To detach our desire from all good things and to wait. Experience proves that this waiting is satisfied. It is then we touch the absolute good.
Always, beyond the particular object whatever it may be, we have to fix our will on the void—to will the void. For the good which we can neither picture nor define is a void for us. But this void is fuller than all fullnesses.

If we get as far as this we shall come through all right, for God fills the void. It has nothing to do with an intellectual process in the present-day sense. The intelligence has nothing to discover, it has only to clear the ground. It is only good for servile tasks.

The good seems to us as a nothingness, since there is no thing that is good. But this nothingness is not unreal. Compared with it, everything in existence is unreal.




I must not forget that at certain times when my headaches were raging I had an intense longing to make another human being suffer by hitting him in exactly the same part of his forehead.

Analogous desires—very frequent in human beings.
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Ricky Lee Nuthman, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 92 Join Date: 4/22/18 Recent Posts
That is a great quote! But to be honest, I think that 'Evil' is a way to describe delusion at its extreme end, and also making it immutable/static. 

I think that this is what lead me to become interested in meditation and the Buddha in general. When we look at things as beng 'Evil' or 'Good', we create a concept, a form; out of something that is simply a culmination of conditioning. 

Imagine you are walking down the street, and out pops some lunatic with an axe. He is running around chopping people down. Or imagine some religious person proudly 'honor killing' his daughter for having sex out of wedlock. Or even imagine a cop leaning on someone's neck until they die.

It's easy to say, 'That person is pure evil!'

Now imagine if at the very moment you saw this person, before you could even generate a thought about them, you were able to 'mind meld style' experience their entire life from start, up until this very moment - in an instant. 

Of course the person would need to be stopped from causing more harm, that isn't in question. But after having seen it all, all of the unskillful teachings they received from people they respect, all of the confusion, all of the suffering, all of the wrong turns, every single conditioned moment that led up to the person that you see before you: I would hazard to guess that one would no longer see 'evil', but a profoundly deluded, suffering and sick person worthy of compassion.

But this is the problem, isn't it. In America especially, everyone wants to blame individuals for being just plain evil, or bad seeds. No one wants to see the truth that it is society that is creating these people. Nothing is happening in a vacuum (no independent arising). 

"there are no assholes out there"... perhaps all the assholes are in here...perhaps there are no assholes any more because everyone is an asshole...


Well, if we are all assholes then we are truly deep shit! Pun intended.. hehe
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ricky Lee Nuthman:
That is a great quote! But to be honest, I think that 'Evil' is a way to describe delusion at its extreme end, and also making it immutable/static. 

I think that this is what lead me to become interested in meditation and the Buddha in general. When we look at things as beng 'Evil' or 'Good', we create a concept, a form; out of something that is simply a culmination of conditioning. 

Imagine you are walking down the street, and out pops some lunatic with an axe. He is running around chopping people down. Or imagine some religious person proudly 'honor killing' his daughter for having sex out of wedlock. Or even imagine a cop leaning on someone's neck until they die.

It's easy to say, 'That person is pure evil!'

Now imagine if at the very moment you saw this person, before you could even generate a thought about them, you were able to 'mind meld style' experience their entire life from start, up until this very moment - in an instant. 

Of course the person would need to be stopped from causing more harm, that isn't in question. But after having seen it all, all of the unskillful teachings they received from people they respect, all of the confusion, all of the suffering, all of the wrong turns, every single conditioned moment that led up to the person that you see before you: I would hazard to guess that one would no longer see 'evil', but a profoundly deluded, suffering and sick person worthy of compassion.

But this is the problem, isn't it. In America especially, everyone wants to blame individuals for being just plain evil, or bad seeds. No one wants to see the truth that it is society that is creating these people. Nothing is happening in a vacuum (no independent arising). 

"there are no assholes out there"... perhaps all the assholes are in here...perhaps there are no assholes any more because everyone is an asshole...


Well, if we are all assholes then we are truly deep shit! Pun intended.. hehe


AN EXCITABLE BOY
(warren zevon)

Well, he went down to dinner in his Sunday best
Excitable boy, they all said
And he rubbed the pot roast all over his chest
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy
He took in the four a.m. show at the Clark
Excitable boy, they all said
And he bit the usherette's leg in the dark
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy
He took little Suzie to the Junior Prom
Excitable boy, they all said
And he raped her and killed her, then he took her home
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy
After ten long years they let him out of the home
Excitable boy, they all said
And he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones
Excitable boy, they all said
Well, he's just an excitable boy

Songwriters: Leroy P. Marinell / Warren Zevon
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ricky Lee Nuthman:
That is a great quote! But to be honest, I think that 'Evil' is a way to describe delusion at its extreme end, and also making it immutable/static. 

I think that this is what lead me to become interested in meditation and the Buddha in general. When we look at things as beng 'Evil' or 'Good', we create a concept, a form; out of something that is simply a culmination of conditioning. 

Imagine you are walking down the street, and out pops some lunatic with an axe. He is running around chopping people down. Or imagine some religious person proudly 'honor killing' his daughter for having sex out of wedlock. Or even imagine a cop leaning on someone's neck until they die.

It's easy to say, 'That person is pure evil!'

Now imagine if at the very moment you saw this person, before you could even generate a thought about them, you were able to 'mind meld style' experience their entire life from start, up until this very moment - in an instant. 

Of course the person would need to be stopped from causing more harm, that isn't in question. But after having seen it all, all of the unskillful teachings they received from people they respect, all of the confusion, all of the suffering, all of the wrong turns, every single conditioned moment that led up to the person that you see before you: I would hazard to guess that one would no longer see 'evil', but a profoundly deluded, suffering and sick person worthy of compassion.

But this is the problem, isn't it. In America especially, everyone wants to blame individuals for being just plain evil, or bad seeds. No one wants to see the truth that it is society that is creating these people. Nothing is happening in a vacuum (no independent arising). 

"there are no assholes out there"... perhaps all the assholes are in here...perhaps there are no assholes any more because everyone is an asshole...


Well, if we are all assholes then we are truly deep shit! Pun intended.. hehe

we sre primarily beasts, worshipping the Great Beast, the "they" of heidegger whose opinions are taken for our own...

t



But if cattle and horses and lions had hands
or could paint with their hands and create works such as men do,
horses like horses and cattle like cattle
also would depict the gods' shapes and make their bodies
of such a sort as the form they themselves have.
...
Ethiopians say that their gods are snub–nosed [σιμούς] and black
Thracians that they are pale and red-haired.

~xenophanes
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ricky Lee Nuthman:
These are the young people who rush back to bars and clubs, wear no masks and don't care that 80% of the deaths to covid19 are in people over 65, whom they will carelessly and indifferently infect, while deploring the lack of ventilators.

I have taken to trying to adopt the perspective that people who do harmful things are behaving this way because of their own suffering. I know this, because I see it in myself whenever I act carelessly. 

Like if someone cuts you off in the street, rushing around other cars beeping and yelling angrily. In the old days, I might have said "What an asshole". But today I think "Wow, how unfortunate that he is going through that". Of course it isn't always automatic. I am just saying that I 'try' to adopt this perspective. I don't know if it's the right one or not, but it cured my road rage years ago when it snapped in my head.

It's the same with the pandemic. People are scared, confused, willfully ignorant and all kinds of things. Everyone is behaving based on their own 'safety strategies' to avoid the arising of aversion. There are no 'assholes' out there - only the sick and well. Even though on the surface this seems to be not very useful. Especially when people kill others with their sickness.


aloha ricky lee,


   The point to the "an excitable boy" quote was to question whether evil is any less evil if the perp is regarded as "sick" rather than "bad." Is rape and murder evil in and of itself, regardless of the culpability or blameworthiness of the particular homo rapiens?

   It is hard to deny that evil exists. Imaginary to think that evil is good. Chuang tzu says, "Calamity makes friendship perfect" - in that sense, evil is a blessing, it brings out the good. The good can make evil work for them, perfect them. The world becomes a place wherein liberation happens.

   The virus is a good metaphor for evil. In a larger sense we can see positive changes coming about, perhaps, as we become more conscious of the fragility of our institutions. The illness itself is bad, obviously, causing mortality and morbidity.

   For spiritual people, who seek or embody the good, evil must be confronted, accepted, transformed. Unless you have a transcendant source of energy, evil will easily overwhelm the good, the good being just a tiny seed and evil being the entire world. Worldly people worship the great beast, and seek good in prosperity, eschew evil in the form of poverty. Job gained true happiness when he no longer was attached to sheep and oxen, wives and children. The "goods" of the world are the source of evil, in that we envy, covet and desire them, and feel deprived at their loss. The goods of the spirit, as the buddha said, "pleasures born of solitude," are not subject to anicca.

Matthew 6:19-20, the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:

19: Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

    If the virus, which has no mind to commit evil, is regarded as a metaphor for evil, than natural events which negatively impact our species or those we closely depend on, are also evil, like earthquakes, storms, even death itself. Getting crisped by lava is bad, as is drowning in the ocean, or getting sick. Even the arhats begged food and medical requisites to stave off evil consequences. There is good karma and bad karma.

   I guess I am suggesting here that ignoring or renaming evil as something not bad is basically just hiding from reality, or the truth. Accepting the reality of evil and responding to it naturally and whole-heartedly, neither attracted nor averse, is more the way. 

   The focus on the virus sweeps aside the masks a little bit, makes us realize we can't hide from evil, and so we confront racism, currently. Racism was invented by american slave owners in the 17th and 18th centuries who had black, white and indian slaves all at the same time. They were afraid the class of slaves would see their common interests and unite, as they indeed had the tendency to do, and so using terror tactics and vicious lies they did their best to divide people through the creation of racial hatred where there formerly was none. Now we see slimeballs like unilever's ben & jerry's, poster boys for corporate corruption, and gun-seller walmart, jumping on the anti-racism bandwagon, as well as politicans of all stripes, and wannabees.Thoughtful and intelligent people understand the cops (themselves slaves) are choking poor whites and hispanics equally, jailing and disenfranchising them, as a political tactic of domination. Racism is only a symptom and the politics of division seize on it to maintain their power.

   Simone weil said, "Revolution, not religion, is the opiate of the people." A leftist herself, she nonetheless knew that in revolution one only exchanges one set of oppressors for another. Force only breeds more force, fighting evil leads to more fighting. The true jihad is against evil in oneself.


terry




from "gravity and grace," simone weil:




Good as the opposite of evil is, in a sense, equivalent to it, as is the way with all opposites.

It is not good which evil violates, for good is inviolate: only a degraded good can be violated.

That which is the direct opposite of an evil never belongs to the order of higher good. It is often scarcely any higher than evil! Examples: theft and the bourgeois respect for property, adultery and the ‘respectable woman’; the savings-bank and waste; lying and ‘sincerity’.

Good is essentially other than evil. Evil is multifarious and fragmentary, good is one, evil is apparent, good is mysterious; evil consists in action, good in non-action, in activity which does not act, etc.—Good considered on the level of evil and measured against it as one opposite against another is good of the penal code order. Above there is a good which, in a sense, bears more resemblance to evil than to this low form of good. This fact opens the way to a great deal of demagogy and many tedious paradoxes.

Good which is defined in the way in which one defines evil should be rejected. Evil does reject it. But the way it rejects it is evil.
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Ricky Lee Nuthman, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 92 Join Date: 4/22/18 Recent Posts
 It is hard to deny that evil exists.


What does evil look like? How is it shaped? What color is it? How does it feel? Is it soft or hard? Is it solid, or perhaps liquid?

Of course it is none of these things. It isn't a thing at all, it is a concept that bundles all manner and degree of delusoin and ignorance into one lump.

Herein lies the danger of language. I use words like 'delusion' or 'sickness' because these are things that can be cleared up. When you call someone of something evil, it implies that there is a static nature of inherent badness to something which cannot be uprooted because it is just evil. He is evil! She is evil! 

Honestly the whole discussion is kind of pointless though because I mostly agree with you - I just think the word 'evil' has too much baggage that leads to misunderstanding, and things like salem witch trials.


Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Ricky Lee Nuthman:
 It is hard to deny that evil exists.


What does evil look like? How is it shaped? What color is it? How does it feel? Is it soft or hard? Is it solid, or perhaps liquid?

Of course it is none of these things. It isn't a thing at all, it is a concept that bundles all manner and degree of delusoin and ignorance into one lump.

Herein lies the danger of language. I use words like 'delusion' or 'sickness' because these are things that can be cleared up. When you call someone of something evil, it implies that there is a static nature of inherent badness to something which cannot be uprooted because it is just evil. He is evil! She is evil! 

Honestly the whole discussion is kind of pointless though because I mostly agree with you - I just think the word 'evil' has too much baggage that leads to misunderstanding, and things like salem witch trials.


As a single example of NOT using it: not using it soon enough and often enough led to the Germans rationalizing their way through Hitler and his agenda.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I find it hepful to think of systems or mechanisms of systems as evil - inherently or potentially, depending on purposes and implications. I think it can be a good word because the alternative is very often to pathologize it, which leads to an association between ill health and evildoing. Living with a number of diagnoses, I have seen too much of the consequences of that. Asshattery is also a good word, but there is more punch to the word evil. In most cases when people say with disgust that something is sick, asshattery doesn't seem strong enough to replace it. Evil does. I still prefer to use it for systems or mechanism, though, as I said, because I don't think it's a good idea to give up on people. 
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I find it hepful to think of systems or mechanisms of systems as evil - inherently or potentially, depending on purposes and implications. I think it can be a good word because the alternative is very often to pathologize it, which leads to an association between ill health and evildoing. Living with a number of diagnoses, I have seen too much of the consequences of that. Asshattery is also a good word, but there is more punch to the word evil. In most cases when people say with disgust that something is sick, asshattery doesn't seem strong enough to replace it. Evil does. I still prefer to use it for systems or mechanism, though, as I said, because I don't think it's a good idea to give up on people. 

As a single example of NOT using it personally: not using it soon enough and often enough led to the Soviets rationalizing their Marxist way through that evil sociopath Stalin and his agenda of whimsical brutalization against all reality checks.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Why wouldn't it be enough to talk about the evil system and evil mechanisms soon enough and often enough? A system isn't only ideology on paper, but also what is done in practice. A system of actions. 

By the way, mechanisms can be individual too, such as defense mechanisms. 
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Why wouldn't it be enough to talk about the evil system and evil mechanisms soon enough and often enough? A system isn't only ideology on paper, but also what is done in practice. A system of actions. 

By the way, mechanisms can be individual too, such as defense mechanisms. 
You could say that the emperor's fat white ass is evil, or that we need better systems to keep asses like that from being admired out of fear of the consequences of saying, "That is butt ugly!" But in the last resort, it is human nature. We have met the enemy, as Pogo says, and he is us.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I think it is generally more likely that people will behave better if we deem actions, systems, and mechanisms as evil rather than the individuals, because it enables people to see the possibilities of behaving better next time. Some people won't, of course, but I think the majority wants to be good or at least be seen as good if they can. Also, they are more likely to keep an open mind if we don't trigger their defense mechanisms as much. Just being pragmatic here. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
And in addition, by talking of the system as evil rather than the individuals, it is possible to target the very mechanisms that lead to horrible consequences. In Nazi Germany and in Stalin's Soviet Union, Hitler and Stalin and their closest persons in service weren't the only ones who made the horror possible. A majority of the citizens were somehow involved in the bureaucracy around it and all the things that normalized it in everyday life - just like people do with contemporary systems that harm oppressed or vulnerable groups and/or the planet, with or without narcissistic leaders. That's dependent origination right there.
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
IMHO, people need to be held responsible for their misdeeds. Call it whatever you want (evil, bad, ill-conceived, etc.) but no system can be subject to justice. At some point someone, a human being or group of human beings, is responsible. Intent matters, as does ignorance.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
IMHO, people need to be held responsible for their misdeeds. Call it whatever you want (evil, bad, ill-conceived, etc.) but no system can be subject to justice. At some point someone, a human being or group of human beings, is responsible. Intent matters, as does ignorance.
Well, of course! But we can't just put entire societies in prison, can we? The Hitlers should go into prison for their actions, just like all the others who commit crimes against humanity. No doubt about that. But we need to be able to point out the evil of the whole system. That's the only way to prevent it all from happening again. Normalization occurs gradually, and there are lots of actions that in themselves can't send anyone to prison but that contribute to making holocausts happen. We need to realize that there are totally normal people that contribute to it. Zygmunt Bauman wrote a brilliant analysis of this. 

Could you please try not to assume the worst from what I write? That goes for Tim as well. 

Also, the last time I checked, people go to prison for their actions, not for their inherent nature. 
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Well, of course! But we can't just put entire societies in prison, can we? The Hitlers should go into prison for their actions, just like all the others who commit crimes against humanity. No doubt about that. But we need to be able to point out the evil of the whole system. That's the only way to prevent it all from happening again. Normalization occurs gradually, and there are lots of actions that in themselves can't send anyone to prison but that contribute to making holocausts happen. We need to realize that there are totally normal people that contribute to it. Zygmunt Bauman wrote a brilliant analysis of this. 

I think we're talking past each other on this one. I'm trying to say that people have intent, systems don't. People put systems in place, and the systems enact the intent. There are also degrees of guilt, in my opinion. I think of it this way: one person can have the intent to create a government that systematically treats a class of humans as inferior. Others within that government or within that country then can choose to actively assist in that system, to passively live within it and accept it, to passively resist it, or to actively resist it. Everyone has some element of intent behind their actions, and if we are to have any kind of justice this must be taken into account. And no, we don't put whole nations or their systems of government in jail - that's what I said in my last comment.

Also, please don't take what I say here personally. I'm just articulating my thoughts on the topics at hand. It's okay, maybe even healthy, if we happen to disagree on some things.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Intentions can be evil, sure, and when that's the case, we need to have mechanisms in place that prevent or minimize harm. AND we need to carefully examine the mechanisms to make sure that they don't have implications that are harmful in some situations. 

I agree with what you are saying. I'm trying to explain that I didn't say anything that contradicts that. 

Intentions don't arise in a vacuum because of somebody's inherent nature in isolation. I use system as a wide term. It includes belief systems, value systems, sociocultural norms and a wide variety of conditions that influence intentions. I use mechanism as a wide term too, including causal chains and defense mechanisms and group dynamics and bugs in the code and unforeseen or intentionally neglected biproducts.

Accountability is of course needed because we live in a relative world where people's actions, or refraining from action (which can also be regarded as action) affect other people.

I don't care if people choose to call Hitler, Stalin, or other massmurderers evil. By all means, go ahead. It's kind of a duh thing. Easy to do in retrospect. They are guilty as fuck. Does it help? I mean now that they are all dead anyway - of course it helps if we manage to stop them. Validating the experiences of the victims is of course important. I wouldn't correct victims that call their abusers evil. In the present, once someone like that is in power, we are already screwed. I salute resistence. However, I think we would be better off if we could also work with the mechanisms that lead people to have such intentions and to act on them. Saying that the Holocaust was made possible because Hitler and other nazis were evil won't prevent it from happening again. If anything, it leads to a false sense of safety, because people think that if we are not evil it can't happen again. Evil is seen as something other, something isolated, something extreme. Here in Sweden I have seen politicians who are involved with organized nazis come to influence, democratically chosen based on a programme that was almost identical to the one in Hitler's Germany, and a number of incidents have occurred that remind of the development back then. I call that stuff out. I point to the similarities and risks, to how one thing leads to another. Lots of people get offended, because that's not like Hitler. But Hitler didn't start with the Holocaust right away. First there was a development that gradually changed people's values and normalized ideas that would previously not have been accepted. That's how it happens. 

My aunt voted for that party. She didn't start out evil. She is bitter after her son was killed at a young age in a work accident because the boss didn't prioritize security and because doctors won't take her health issues seriously, and she found a belief system that gives her something to blame, someone to hate. The nazis killed autistic people too, people like me. Somehow she refuses to see the implications of the politics that she votes for and the ideas that they plan to set in motion. When I was a kid, her home was like a home to me. To say that it is her intention to take away all security there ever was for people like me would not be fair. I think she should be informed enough to see what kind of suggestions the politicians she votes for make, but somehow she's in denial, and she lives in a society that has over the last years come to normalize decisions, actions, ideas that would never have been accepted before that gradual change happened. Do I still blame her? Yes. Do I think that her evil nature explains it? No. 

What I find highly problematic is all the cases when people refuse to see extremely harmful actions as evil or even just simply wrong because the persons who committed those actions are not like Hitler. They couldn't possibly have meant it, people seems to think, and therefore they must have had a reason, so the victim just can't be that innocent. The victim shouldn't have moved, or should have moved. The victim should have answered when spoken to, or shouldn't have answered, or should have had a different voice. The victim shouldn't have looked so scary. The victim shouldn't have been outside while being black, or autistic with divergent eye contact. And so the institutionalized racism and ableism are justified, and these things keep happening.

I have a friend who hasn't been able to leave his bed for a couple of years, due to a number of illnesses and disabilities and divergences that complicate each other in a way that makes it impossible for him to get help from any of the available systems. He is forced to lie there in his own shit. In trying to help him claim his rights, I have seen unbelievably many totally normal people change from treating him like a fellow human being to calling him manipulative for asking for water and other absurdities. Many who work within the care system or social services want to help first, and they just can't believe how badly he has been treated. Then they gradually notice how impossible the situation is. How it is all a catch-22. And so they start to makes hints that maybe he should just try to not have some of the difficulties that he has, as if he hasn't already been trying for far too long and only gotten worse from it. If he doesn't exhaust himself by doing what would cost him a month of much worse health in a situation that is already unbearable, then they start resenting him. If he does harm himself like that, because he sees no other choice, then they assume that he was exaggerating all along, and so they resent him for that. They start to demand even more from him, leading to more situations that only lead to resentment from them and increasingly poor health from him. Then they start comparing notes and legitimize each other's decisions and actions. Surely he must just be faking it. Or maybe he is deluding himself. It's not like we would let anyone lie in his own shit for a couple of years and yell at him for it if it wasn't really his own fault. We are doing him a favor by not accepting his delusion, they say. Systems give rise to evil. 
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I agree with what you are saying. I'm trying to explain that I didn't say anything that contradicts that. 

You truly don't need to explain that, but I appreciate all the effort you're putting into doing it. I know what your position is. As I said, I think we were talking past each other. I wasn't really even replying to you directly in my first comment on this topic, but on DhO you have to choose an existing post to reply to. I generally choose that last post in that case. That post just happened to be yours in this case.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Chris, thankyou for clarifying! I'm glad you didn't misunderstand me like that, and I appologize for believing so.

I usually reply to the start of the thread, because that makes the thread easier to navigate for those who have chosen two of the three possible alternatives for viewing the threads according to the settings. If I respond to anyone else, it is because I'm addressing something they said. 

Edited to add: You did address what I said about systems, though, which is part of why I thought the rest of the short comment was directed to me as well, together with your replying to my post.
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Intentions can be evil, sure, and when that's the case, we need to have mechanisms in place that prevent or minimize harm. AND we need to carefully examine the mechanisms to make sure that they don't have implications that are harmful in some situations. 

I agree with what you are saying. I'm trying to explain that I didn't say anything that contradicts that. 




Okay, thank you. I agree. I never thought you were a Nazi, to be honest, sweetie. A closet Stalinist, maybe, but that's fasionable again, i hear.
Intentions don't arise in a vacuum because of somebody's inherent nature in isolation. I use system as a wide term. It includes belief systems, value systems, sociocultural norms and a wide variety of conditions that influence intentions. I use mechanism as a wide term too, including causal chains and defense mechanisms and group dynamics and bugs in the code and unforeseen or intentionally neglected biproducts.

Accountability is of course needed because we live in a relative world where people's actions, or refraining from action (which can also be regarded as action) affect other people.


sure.

I don't care if people choose to call Hitler, Stalin, or other massmurderers evil. By all means, go ahead. It's kind of a duh thing. Easy to do in retrospect. They are guilty as fuck. Does it help? I mean now that they are all dead anyway - of course it helps if we manage to stop them. Validating the experiences of the victims is of course important. I wouldn't correct victims that call their abusers evil. In the present, once someone like that is in power, we are already screwed.

I started with the obvious evil men. I belive, with Hannah Arendt that the real evil is not in the Big Front Men, but in the complicit people "just following orders," whatever the morality of the orders, the grey men of the bureaucracies of dehumanization, the haters rejoicing in a legitimized venue for their hatred, the power-hungry rejoicing in a petty kingdom and power exercised from a small desk, toll booth, or security station. If one person with a cell phone had knocked that fucking cop off George Floyd's neck, it would be a whole different story. The guy who knocked the cop over might be dead too, but maybe not, and probably not George Floyd. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, Edmund Burke said, is for good men to do nothing.

This is human nature. My larger argument here is one that i started really realizing after a long talk with a cop in Washing, DC, on a quiet street that had been in flames the night before. He said, the systems are all in place, the rules are all perfectly adequate to address the abuses. The problem, he said, the real problem is that there are too many stupid people, too many corrupt people, and too many people who are just chickenshit.

I was silent then. And i thought, Fuck, he's right, it doesn't matter who is in power, we're already screwed.

I salute resistence. However, I think we would be better off if we could also work with the mechanisms that lead people to have such intentions and to act on them. Saying that the Holocaust was made possible because Hitler and other nazis were evil won't prevent it from happening again. If anything, it leads to a false sense of safety, because people think that if we are not evil it can't happen again. Evil is seen as something other, something isolated, something extreme. Here in Sweden I have seen politicians who are involved with organized nazis come to influence, democratically chosen based on a programme that was almost identical to the one in Hitler's Germany, and a number of incidents have occurred that remind of the development back then. I call that stuff out. I point to the similarities and risks, to how one thing leads to another. Lots of people get offended, because that's not like Hitler. But Hitler didn't start with the Holocaust right away. First there was a development that gradually changed people's values and normalized ideas that would previously not have been accepted. That's how it happens. 

My aunt voted for that party. She didn't start out evil. She is bitter after her son was killed at a young age in a work accident because the boss didn't prioritize security and because doctors won't take her health issues seriously, and she found a belief system that gives her something to blame, someone to hate. The nazis killed autistic people too, people like me. Somehow she refuses to see the implications of the politics that she votes for and the ideas that they plan to set in motion. When I was a kid, her home was like a home to me. To say that it is her intention to take away all security there ever was for people like me would not be fair. I think she should be informed enough to see what kind of suggestions the politicians she votes for make, but somehow she's in denial, and she lives in a society that has over the last years come to normalize decisions, actions, ideas that would never have been accepted before that gradual change happened. Do I still blame her? Yes. Do I think that her evil nature explains it? No. 

you admit that there is a basis for your judgment. You "still blame her." We are saying the same thing. The word "evil" is not the point.
But human nature is.
What I find highly problematic is all the cases when people refuse to see extremely harmful actions as evil or even just simply wrong because the persons who committed those actions are not like Hitler. They couldn't possibly have meant it, people seems to think, and therefore they must have had a reason, so the victim just can't be that innocent. The victim shouldn't have moved, or should have moved. The victim should have answered when spoken to, or shouldn't have answered, or should have had a different voice. The victim shouldn't have looked so scary. The victim shouldn't have been outside while being black, or autistic with divergent eye contact. And so the institutionalized racism and ableism are justified, and these things keep happening.

as soon as we stop saying the same thing, i will say "fuckety-fuck" to say, precisely translated in a hazy but generall viable way, "Dearest Linda, I beg to differ, in civil and even affectionate terms and tones."

I have a friend who hasn't been able to leave his bed for a couple of years, due to a number of illnesses and disabilities and divergences that complicate each other in a way that makes it impossible for him to get help from any of the available systems. He is forced to lie there in his own shit. In trying to help him claim his rights, I have seen unbelievably many totally normal people change from treating him like a fellow human being to calling him manipulative for asking for water and other absurdities. Many who work within the care system or social services want to help first, and they just can't believe how badly he has been treated. Then they gradually notice how impossible the situation is. How it is all a catch-22. And so they start to makes hints that maybe he should just try to not have some of the difficulties that he has, as if he hasn't already been trying for far too long and only gotten worse from it. If he doesn't exhaust himself by doing what would cost him a month of much worse health in a situation that is already unbearable, then they start resenting him. If he does harm himself like that, because he sees no other choice, then they assume that he was exaggerating all along, and so they resent him for that. They start to demand even more from him, leading to more situations that only lead to resentment from them and increasingly poor health from him. Then they start comparing notes and legitimize each other's decisions and actions. Surely he must just be faking it. Or maybe he is deluding himself. It's not like we would let anyone lie in his own shit for a couple of years and yell at him for it if it wasn't really his own fault. We are doing him a favor by not accepting his delusion,


well, i'll be damned.

love, tim
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
You don't use the word "system" in the same way as I do. As I said, systems, the way I use the word, is not only what is on paper. It is also how people routinely behave in practice, in interaction with the formal systems and other circumstances. 

There is a tendency for humans to form groups that have each other's backs and to protect both themselves and the group with defense mechanisms. Whether or not that results in evil depends on the specific systems that organically develop, and how that interacts with mechanisms such as the tendencies mentioned. Those things can be worked with. I'm not saying that it's easy, but the alternative is just giving up. I'm saying that we should call it out. You just accused me for not daring to call it out. Now you are saying that there is no point in doing it. It seems to me like the former you would have called out the latter you. 

Yes, I blame my aunt for her actions. That doesn’t mean that I believe that her actions are caused by her inherent nature. If I believed that, there would be no point in blaming her.
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Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/deep-adaptation-opens-necessary-conversation-about-breakdown-civilisation/?fbclid=IwAR17KLj1tcC_qXtWsr1xLlvawAEIUJ9G07pcWYBJUGNgNc1j-IKSI8GFaQg

...Indeed, following the recommendations of the IPCC, the necessary mitigation efforts would in a way amount to bringing about the end of thermo-industrial civilisation. With such a forced decrease, the world's economies would not survive in their current structure. The necessary reduction in emissions is -7.6% per year for 10 years to maintain a 66% probability of remaining below 1.5°C (-2.7% per year for 10 years to maintain a 66% probability of remaining below 2°C). That would mean extending (and even strengthening) the strongest economic effect of the COVID-19 lockdown for 10 continuous years!
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/deep-adaptation-opens-necessary-conversation-about-breakdown-civilisation/?fbclid=IwAR17KLj1tcC_qXtWsr1xLlvawAEIUJ9G07pcWYBJUGNgNc1j-IKSI8GFaQg

...Indeed, following the recommendations of the IPCC, the necessary mitigation efforts would in a way amount to bringing about the end of thermo-industrial civilisation. With such a forced decrease, the world's economies would not survive in their current structure. The necessary reduction in emissions is -7.6% per year for 10 years to maintain a 66% probability of remaining below 1.5°C (-2.7% per year for 10 years to maintain a 66% probability of remaining below 2°C). That would mean extending (and even strengthening) the strongest economic effect of the COVID-19 lockdown for 10 continuous years!

No government is going to comply with such standards. The most likely scenario is what we are seeing during the Covid times, much stronger government controls and disinformation, moving toward totalitarianism and news control. The government grips will take us into whatever the future climate holds for us. Meanwhile, study Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago, and the memoirs from eastern Europe from before the Velvet Revolution: how to live under authoritarian/totalitarian rule, and how to keep your sense of humor in jail.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 3877 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
That would mean extending (and even strengthening) the strongest economic effect of the COVID-19 lockdown for 10 continuous years!

This remains a possibility, given that we may never defeat the COVID virus. Of course, we will likely develop immunities and the virus will mutate and soften in effect, just like the Spanish Flu did after 1919. From what I read in the scientific press we're accelerating into warming much faster than expected, so the models are missing on the downside. That's horrible news for the planet.
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Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Yeah, i think +3 or 5 celsius on average by 2050 is pretty likely honestly, which means maybe +6 or 10 average on the continents. That is a very different world, with peaks at 50 celsius becoming a normal thing in france... Within 30 years !!

May we all become aware, accept, and find the fluidity and strength to adapt our action.
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I think it is generally more likely that people will behave better if we deem actions, systems, and mechanisms as evil rather than the individuals, because it enables people to see the possibilities of behaving better next time. Some people won't, of course, but I think the majority wants to be good or at least be seen as good if they can. Also, they are more likely to keep an open mind if we don't trigger their defense mechanisms as much. Just being pragmatic here. 

yes, the gentle approach tp people, not hurting their feelings by not pointing out their complicity in the horrific shit going down right in front of their eyes, has worked sp well throughout history. The several eople possibly spared in their hurt feelings no dounbt, uh, well, whatever. The millions lost to genocide, gulags, and let us not forget the concentrations camps exterminating the Chosen People of God even though many of them hd been doing their best to assimilate into the racist oppressive bourgeois kaiser-fest in which they found themselves, in the most civilized nation on earth (at least so the Germans said, always citing tha same few fucking musician composers and fucking Goethe the universal genius who puts me to sleep with every romantic thing he writes and is clearly an acquired taste), being taken en masse by trains and unloaded, the ones who looked capable of being worked to death sent to the right, the children, women, sick, aged, and just plain weak sent left straight down into the shower room at Auschwitz, where the doors clanged shut and locked and gas began to hiss into the room. Down the way a bit, the cremations ovens worked day and night, after the civilized german people who wouldn't admit to evil if they were in it up to their necks themselves (oh, right, there were, and didn't) took the remaining gold from the corpes teeth and wheeled them to the furnace door.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I think it is generally more likely that people will behave better if we deem actions, systems, and mechanisms as evil rather than the individuals, because it enables people to see the possibilities of behaving better next time. Some people won't, of course, but I think the majority wants to be good or at least be seen as good if they can. Also, they are more likely to keep an open mind if we don't trigger their defense mechanisms as much. Just being pragmatic here. 

yes, the gentle approach tp people, not hurting their feelings by not pointing out their complicity in the horrific shit going down right in front of their eyes, has worked sp well throughout history. The several eople possibly spared in their hurt feelings no dounbt, uh, well, whatever. The millions lost to genocide, gulags, and let us not forget the concentrations camps exterminating the Chosen People of God even though many of them hd been doing their best to assimilate into the racist oppressive bourgeois kaiser-fest in which they found themselves, in the most civilized nation on earth (at least so the Germans said, always citing tha same few fucking musician composers and fucking Goethe the universal genius who puts me to sleep with every romantic thing he writes and is clearly an acquired taste), being taken en masse by trains and unloaded, the ones who looked capable of being worked to death sent to the right, the children, women, sick, aged, and just plain weak sent left straight down into the shower room at Auschwitz, where the doors clanged shut and locked and gas began to hiss into the room. Down the way a bit, the cremations ovens worked day and night, after the civilized german people who wouldn't admit to evil if they were in it up to their necks themselves (oh, right, there were, and didn't) took the remaining gold from the corpes teeth and wheeled them to the furnace door.

Jeeze... You misunderstood me completely. Please read what I wrote to Chris above. Please also note that we all contribute to some form of oppression whether or not we intend to. That needs to be called out too. That's what I'm talking about. Do you seriously think that I would defend people who commit genocide? I would never defend or look for excuses for any of those cops that go about killing innocent people because they are black or autistic or black and autistic. Surprisingly many people do. They focus on that, and they do it in a way that puts the blame on the victim. That's not okay. I call out oppression and other evil actions, and I'm very rarely accused of doing it too gently. I thought you knew that about me by now. 

Also, may I remind you that you were the one talking about it just being human nature, not me. That's relativizing crimes like the ones you described above. 
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Tim Farrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I think it is generally more likely that people will behave better if we deem actions, systems, and mechanisms as evil rather than the individuals, because it enables people to see the possibilities of behaving better next time. Some people won't, of course, but I think the majority wants to be good or at least be seen as good if they can. Also, they are more likely to keep an open mind if we don't trigger their defense mechanisms as much. Just being pragmatic here. 

yes, the gentle approach tp people, not hurting their feelings by not pointing out their complicity in the horrific shit going down right in front of their eyes, has worked sp well throughout history. The several eople possibly spared in their hurt feelings no dounbt, uh, well, whatever. The millions lost to genocide, gulags, and let us not forget the concentrations camps exterminating the Chosen People of God even though many of them hd been doing their best to assimilate into the racist oppressive bourgeois kaiser-fest in which they found themselves, in the most civilized nation on earth (at least so the Germans said, always citing tha same few fucking musician composers and fucking Goethe the universal genius who puts me to sleep with every romantic thing he writes and is clearly an acquired taste), being taken en masse by trains and unloaded, the ones who looked capable of being worked to death sent to the right, the children, women, sick, aged, and just plain weak sent left straight down into the shower room at Auschwitz, where the doors clanged shut and locked and gas began to hiss into the room. Down the way a bit, the cremations ovens worked day and night, after the civilized german people who wouldn't admit to evil if they were in it up to their necks themselves (oh, right, there were, and didn't) took the remaining gold from the corpes teeth and wheeled them to the furnace door.

Jeeze... You misunderstood me completely. Please read what I wrote to Chris above. Please also note that we all contribute to some form of oppression whether or not we intend to. That needs to be called out too. That's what I'm talking about. Do you seriously think that I would defend people who commit genocide? I would never defend or look for excuses for any of those cops that go about killing innocent people because they are black or autistic or black and autistic. Surprisingly many people do. They focus on that, and they do it in a way that puts the blame on the victim. That's not okay. I call out oppression and other evil actions, and I'm very rarely accused of doing it too gently. I thought you knew that about me by now. 

Also, may I remind you that you were the one talking about it just being human nature, not me. That's relativizing crimes like the ones you described above. 
Linda, you know i love you. Nothing could be more certain than that. This is not about you in any way shape or form, truly.

"Evil" is political, and societal, systemic (all of which you note), and historical. it has nothing whatso ever to do with either you and/or me, in that sense, nor does it have anything to do with the kind of very personal interaction you are talking about in which no blame is so crucial. i agree with you on that personal interactional approach, you know that, in general, in most instances. i am talking about standing in the streets facing men in riot gear and saying the emperor has no clothes, and that police need to stop killing young black men and getting away with a slap on the wrist.that is calling out evil.evil means something.Addressing it begins with the courage to face the the punishments that come with calling an evil evil. It proceeds frpom there accvording to how much you've pissed the fuckers off.

love, tim
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Tim, I never suggested that we should be gentle with nazis and the like in order not to hurt their feelings. My position is rather the opposite. You know that, so there was no need to be sarchastic. 
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Ricky Lee Nuthman:
 It is hard to deny that evil exists.


What does evil look like? How is it shaped? What color is it? How does it feel? Is it soft or hard? Is it solid, or perhaps liquid?

Of course it is none of these things. It isn't a thing at all, it is a concept that bundles all manner and degree of delusoin and ignorance into one lump.

Herein lies the danger of language. I use words like 'delusion' or 'sickness' because these are things that can be cleared up. When you call someone of something evil, it implies that there is a static nature of inherent badness to something which cannot be uprooted because it is just evil. He is evil! She is evil! 

Honestly the whole discussion is kind of pointless though because I mostly agree with you - I just think the word 'evil' has too much baggage that leads to misunderstanding, and things like salem witch trials.


As a single example of NOT using it: not using it soon enough and often enough led to the Germans rationalizing their way through Hitler and his agenda.




BUSLOAD OF FAITH
(lou reed)

You can't depend on your family
you can't depend on your friends
You can't depend on a beginning
you can't depend on an end
You can't depend on intelligence
ooohhh, you can't depend on God
You can only depend on one thing
you need a busload of faith to get by, watch, baby
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
you need a busload of faith to get by
You can depend on the worst always happening
you can depend on a murderer's drive
You can bet that if he rapes somebody
there'll be no trouble having a child
You can bet that if she aborts it
pro-lifers will attack her with rage
You can depend on the worst always happening
you need a busload of faith to get by, yeah
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by, baby
busload of faith to get by
You can't depend on the goodly hearted
the goodly hearted made lamp-shades and soap
You can't depend on the Sacrament
no Father, no Holy Ghost
You can't depend on any churches
unless there's real estate you want to buy
You can't depend on a lot of things
you need a busload of faith to get by, woh
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
You can't depend on no miracle
you can't depend on the air
You can't depend on a wise man
you can't find 'em because they're not there
You can depend on cruelty
crudity of thought and sound
You can depend on the worst always happening
you need a busload of faith to get by, ha
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by

Songwriters: Lou Reed
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
   I am amazed, with all this talk about nazis, soviets, the horrible destruction of millions of people instigated by hitler and stalin, brave talk of calling the government out, how the followers are the true evil ones, etc etc etc and no one calls out trump!!!!!!

   I am truly astounded that all this is just reminiscing to you, or that you can speak so vehemently and entirely ignore the elephant in the room.

   Under trump's leadership of the world's only superpower, the world economy and health have gone completely over a cliff. More millions will die of poverty and starvation alone than lost their lives in ww2, and it can be easily laid to the faults of this man's so-called leadership. Millions of americans will die unnecessarily, and the damage to the world is incalculable. Entire societies may collapse, imminently. Many of them muslim: lebanon, yemen, bangladesh. "Let them eat tweets" is the title of a new book; how will history view the trump phenomenon? He may well throw the 2020 presidential election into chaos by hamstringing the us postal service and deligitimizing voting by mail during a pandemic. Ironically, if no president is elected by jan 20, nancy pelosi will be elevated to the office as 3rd in line speaker of the house.

   No need for evidence, observe any clip of the american president speaking, see and hear a banal apprentice dictator with the same old playbook. Hitler never got more than 38% of the vote in germany, and the unified enthusiasm of this minority carried the nation away to a self-perpetuating terroism. No american president has before sent militarized federal police forces in forest camo to quell protests in cities run by the opposition party only. None has openly sought to discourage voting, or refused to accept losing. Dictators the world over have been emboldened, from belarus to brazil, not to metion china and russia.

   Congress, which should be holding hearings to publicize trump's latest high crimes and misdemeanors (we have video evidence, he told fox news he won't approve covid relief because he believes starving the post office would serve his political interests in maintaining power).

   The stories of americans who are on the brink or over the falls need to be told. 

terry



from leonard lyons, washingtom post, 1947:


In the days when Stalin was Commissar of Munitions, a meeting was held of the highest ranking Commissars, and the principal matter for discussion was the famine then prevalent in the Ukraine. One official arose and made a speech about this tragedy — the tragedy of having millions of people dying of hunger. He began to enumerate death figures … Stalin interrupted him to say: “If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics.”




if you haven't seen sarah cooper's impressions yet, you will soon as she's coming to netflix...this is comedic art at its finest; sarah wrote a book on a hundred ways to walk into a meeting and captivate people while saying absolute nonsense, and so she understands trump very well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxDKW75ueIU
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
for insight into where trump arose, from the birthers to qanon, pbs frontline's recent documentary on conspiracy theories reveals how trump is alex jones' maxi-me...when the sun sets, tall shadows are cast by little people...



https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/united-states-of-conspiracy/
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
for insight into where trump arose, from the birthers to qanon, pbs frontline's recent documentary on conspiracy theories reveals how trump is alex jones' maxi-me...when the sun sets, tall shadows are cast by little people...



https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/united-states-of-conspiracy/


this isn't about politics, not about taking sides...I hate politics and didn't vote in the last presidential election, clinton was a lock in hawaii anyway, most votes don't count when we don't have direct election of the president, and the one elected usually loses the vote count even when many don't bother to cast an opposing vote; a clearly corrupt system perpetuated by those who benefit, like the rotten boroughs of old england...I didn't even know who won the election until the following thursday...I was amazed and resolved to never read or watch the news for the next four years...never to hear the obscenity, "president trump" for whom being born in hawaii made you not a citizen, if you were black at least...

and I did not, even comedy was avoided when a reality tv star (signature line for "the apprentice" dictator: "you're fired!") was to be taken for real, as though he could lead, as though he spoke anything but fantasy and lies...yes he is a joke, and no he is not generally amusing; ridiculous but not comical...

I wasn't worried about the pandemic in march; I've worked with public health, and as expected europe and new york have demonstrated it is handleable...not until it became apparent we were not going to make any real effort and would be forced to follow the nonsensical magical thinking of a "leader" who lives in a narcissistic bubble of intensely self-interested delusion...discouraging testing and forcing schools and businesses to reopen or suffer consequences has been and continues to be devastating, calamitous....we are a hotbed, and a seedbed of contagion for the world to constantly be vigilant against, making any sort of attempt at normalcy at best an open question for the indefinite future...the world was not so complex and interrelated, not so many dependent on the global flow of materials during the spanish flu; while it was virulent and contagious, not eveyone got it, it was a flu and not "novel"... no one has had covid before and that makes 7.5 billion susceptible, imagine delivering 15 billion doses of semi-effective vaccine in a small window of global effectiveness...we need also to prepare for future pandemics...

a world crisis of leadership and the world has trump at the helm...his intentions, insect that he is, are irrelevant...the evil that he does is very much an immediate disaster...he has surrounded himself with sycophants and bombthrowers, placed in almost accidental positions that now are of real power...his followers are conditioned to believe the most nonsensical things, supported by huge media aggregates telling only self-serving lies to a viewership deliberately and completely detached from reality...facebook delivered trump the election, suckerberg sees himself as a string-puller...

wall street set new records as the economy declined 35%...think about how that is even possible...

here in hawaii our gov is steady and our lt gov is a physician/politician whose grasp of reality here is greatly reassuring...oahu cases are soaring and soon will be out of hand...we still have no virus here on the big island but it can only be a matter of time, the quarantines are too porous, the disease is likely among us already...

may all beings be happy (smile)...

t
Tim Farrington, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
thanks, terry, for this, which goes to the heart of all this for me:


BUSLOAD OF FAITH
(lou reed)

You can't depend on your family
you can't depend on your friends
You can't depend on a beginning
you can't depend on an end
You can't depend on intelligence
ooohhh, you can't depend on God
You can only depend on one thing
you need a busload of faith to get by, watch, baby
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
you need a busload of faith to get by
You can depend on the worst always happening
you can depend on a murderer's drive
You can bet that if he rapes somebody
there'll be no trouble having a child
You can bet that if she aborts it
pro-lifers will attack her with rage
You can depend on the worst always happening
you need a busload of faith to get by, yeah
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by, baby
busload of faith to get by
You can't depend on the goodly hearted
the goodly hearted made lamp-shades and soap
You can't depend on the Sacrament
no Father, no Holy Ghost
You can't depend on any churches
unless there's real estate you want to buy
You can't depend on a lot of things
you need a busload of faith to get by, woh
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
You can't depend on no miracle
you can't depend on the air
You can't depend on a wise man
you can't find 'em because they're not there
You can depend on cruelty
crudity of thought and sound
You can depend on the worst always happening
you need a busload of faith to get by, ha
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by
Busload of faith to get by
busload of faith to get by

Songwriters: Lou Reed
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ricky Lee Nuthman:
 It is hard to deny that evil exists.


What does evil look like? How is it shaped? What color is it? How does it feel? Is it soft or hard? Is it solid, or perhaps liquid?

Of course it is none of these things. It isn't a thing at all, it is a concept that bundles all manner and degree of delusoin and ignorance into one lump.

Herein lies the danger of language. I use words like 'delusion' or 'sickness' because these are things that can be cleared up. When you call someone of something evil, it implies that there is a static nature of inherent badness to something which cannot be uprooted because it is just evil. He is evil! She is evil! 

Honestly the whole discussion is kind of pointless though because I mostly agree with you - I just think the word 'evil' has too much baggage that leads to misunderstanding, and things like salem witch trials.



   All existence is dualistic, relative. Existence/non-existence. Thus good requires evil, in  a world which exists.

   Supreme court justice potter stewart , writing in the decision of the Jacobellis v. Ohio case, said:

“I have reached the conclusion . . . that under the First and Fourteenth Amendments criminal laws in this area are constitutionally limited to hard-core pornography. I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.”

  Unintentional comedy, of course. Lenny bruce thought of the supreme court's obscenity rulings as art criticism, as people who didn't understand his art and saw it as obscene. He observed that judges live in a world where no one talks dirty to them. Lenny bruce, of course, was the author of "How to talk dirty and influence people" and was arrested many times for words some people routinely use here, and for making fun of the associates christ and moses. (He particularly resented being arrested for saying that bishop fulton sheen looked like shirley temple, because a priest had told him that joke.)

   The word evil is in a class of words which cannot be defined because they are so relative to one's point of view. Eg: "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Similarly, truth, justice, courage, honor, honesty...even such ideas as sweetness or goodness depend on what we individually or conventionally value and what we don't. That they are relative to a point and indefinable generally desn't make them less real as influences and values.

   In the absolute sense it's all good, all love, one pearl. I've always thought of the relative and absolute in the sense of a farmer, or gardener. On one's day off, one goes to the meadow for a picnic, and enjoys the buzzing of the insects, the blooming of wildflowers and grasses, the shade of trees. Next day the same insects are pests to be killed, the same wildflowers are weeds to be plucked up, and the shade tree blocks the sun and needs trimmed or removed. Two views.

   I take your point though. As soon as we step into the relative realm of good and bad we takes sides, we love the good and hate the bad, and so are lost.


terry





some sayings of saadi:




A TREE FRESHLY ROOTED

A tree, freshly rooted, may be pulled up by one man on his own. Give it time, and it will not be moved, even with a crane.



DOING GOOD TO THE EVIL

Merely doing good to the evil may be equivalent to doing evil to the good.



REWARD

Child, look for no reward from A,
If you are working in the house of B.
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Not two, not one, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 904 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Two sharks circling around you mate.

They are only sharks by the standards of other sharks, not by the standards of non-sharks  emoticon

Well that is totally next level.  emoticon
shargrol, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 1537 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Not two, not one:
Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.emoticon

I added the smiliy face your forgot to add.

It's funny because there is an element of truth, like all good jokes. emoticonemoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
shargrol:
Not two, not one:
Chris is only an Arhat by the standards of other Arhats, but he is not an Arhat according to the standards of non-Arhats.emoticon

I added the smiliy face your forgot to add.

It's funny because there is an element of truth, like all good jokes. emoticonemoticon
This conversation is way above my pay grade. emoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
When I landed in Kathmandu, for my month long at Panditarama lumbini, I had already started reading Servigne. I was horrified at the nightmarish pollution in this city, the chaos. It's the most polluted city in the world currently, or second. 

I just felt so viscerally that what he was saying was true. I stumbled upon this article here, and it resonated so strongly with me. I wanted to share it with you. It really made me ask myselves questions like : if I must die, what should I die for ? 

I thought about that again during the hardcore retreat, and there was a moment when I knew what I was read to die for, although I couldn't have put it in words, perhaps for the first time. It was a strong moment. The fact of knowing viscerally that it's possible to be ok with dying for a cause, or rather to be so devoted to something that you would give your life for it, was really powerful. I imagine many parents feel that... 


https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown
It's sort of like drinking sips of poison. 

An interesting sign of the times here--- https://frieze.com/article/arts-ecological-turn-and-sixth-great-extinction 
Art’s Ecological Turn and the Sixth Great Extinction
Two shows, at Cologne’s Temporary Gallery and Moscow’s Garage MCA, look to art in the age of environmental collapse:

In the context of climate destruction, representations of the ecological or technological sublime, such as the massive formats of Edward Byrtynksy or the videos of visual artist Rachel Rose, have come, for me, to seem increasingly escapist, suffering from what the cultural critic Sianne Ngai theorises as ‘stuplimity’: the sublime plus ‘whatever’. You look into the void, you look out.

Two recent exhibitions in Germany and Russia took a different tack. The first was held in Cologne this summer: a modest group show held at the not-for-profit Temporary Gallery, ‘Heart of an Old Crocodile Exploding Over a Small Town.’ The second, at Moscow’s Garage Museum of Contemporary Art, ‘The Coming World: Ecology as the New Politics 2030–2100’, which runs until December. Both shows chose not to span out but to drive in to consider our current predicament, focussing on the creaturely, the subterranean and the weird, to think through life within and beyond the anthropocene.

love, tim
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Yes, very toxic topic ! 
Tim Farrington, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Jonathan Neale, "Social Collapse and climate breakdown":

Almost none of those (major twnetieth century mass] horrors were committed by small groups of savages wandering through the ruins. They were committed by States, and by mass political movements.

Society did not disintegrate. It did not come apart. Society intensified. Power concentrated, and split, and those powers had us kill each other. It seems reasonable to assume that climate social collapse will be like that. Only with five times as many dead, if we are lucky, and twenty-five times as many, if we are not.

Remember this, because when the moment of runaway climate change comes for you, where you live, it will not come in the form of a few wandering hairy bikers. It will come with the tanks on the streets and the military or the fascists taking power.

Those generals will talk in deep green language. They will speak of degrowth, and the boundaries of planetary ecology. They will tell us we have consumed too much, and been too greedy, and now for the sake of Mother Earth, we must tighten our belts.

Then we will tighten our belts, and we will suffer, and they will build a new kind of gross green inequality. And in a world of ecological freefall, it will take cruelty on an unprecedented scale to keep their inequality in place.


https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown

I am struck by Neale’s assertion in https://theecologist.org/2019/may/08/social-collapse-and-climate-breakdown that one of the main features of a societal “breakdown” and climate/resources/virus/population-crash global emergency is likely to be not the disappearance of governments, but the kind of extraordinary cementing of control by governments that we are seeing in the covid crisis. I live among poor blacks and poor whites, mostly, here, and strangely enough, neither of these seemingly irreconcilable and seemingly naturally antagonistic groups trust the government a bit, and they’re all sure that once the crisis is “past,” the government will not back off from the kind of social control they’ve suddenly realized they can exercise in the face of a kind of natural Pearl Harbor mobilizing the country’s spirit and its fears.
 
This took me back to a bunch of books i read about four years ago, trying to understand how the eastern europeans had accomplished the miracles of 1989, the non-violent mass movements that brought down the Soviet Union. The Civil Rights movement of the 60s is also very instructive along these lines, of what are ordinary people to do in the face of brutal government-back systematic and institutionalized oppression? And Gandhi, of course.
 
And, of course, that so many leaders of non-violent revolutions are killed by violence.
 
Anyway, how do real people even begin to understand how to live with the possibility that Neale is right when he says:
 
Remember this, because when the moment of runaway climate change comes for you, where you live, it will not come in the form of a few wandering hairy bikers. It will come with the tanks on the streets and the military or the fascists taking power.

Those generals will talk in deep green language. They will speak of degrowth, and the boundaries of planetary ecology. They will tell us we have consumed too much, and been too greedy, and now for the sake of Mother Earth, we must tighten our belts.

Then we will tighten our belts, and we will suffer, and they will build a new kind of gross green inequality. And in a world of ecological freefall, it will take cruelty on an unprecedented scale to keep their inequality in place.

The answers, i think, can begin to be studied in those extraordinary underground small groups that laid the foundations under the Soviets for a renewal of spirit and a belief in the power of truth, against all odds, by simply beginning to get together quietly and secretly and talk with each other about what was actually going on.
 
A good one to start with: An essay length article by Vaclav Havel that lays out the groundwork for the kind of underground society of truth-tellers that underlay the “sudden” non-violent success of the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia in 1989,l and in particular the radical yet simple tactic of small groups getting together simply to tell each other the truth, what he calls “Living the truth,” which he feels was the key to the whole revival of Czech morale at the grass roots level under the boot of a society where truth was punished at every turn.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120107141633/http://www.vaclavhavel.cz/showtrans.php?cat=clanky&val=72_aj_clanky.html&typ=HTML
 
A bunch of great books that spin separate threads of this approach:

Open letters, Vaclav Havel, https://www.amazon.com/Open-Letters-Selected-Writings-1965-1990/dp/0679738118/ref=sr_1_1?crid=AS28X9B0BJ79&dchild=1&keywords=open+letters+havel&qid=1589575401&s=books&sprefix=Open+Letters%2Cdigital-text%2C150&sr=1-1
 
The Captive Mind, Czeslaw Milosz, https://www.amazon.com/The-Captive-Mind-audiobook/dp/B077H8GR6C/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3IZB1ZIT6W3B0&dchild=1&keywords=the+captive+mind+by+czes%C5%82aw+milosz&qid=1589575476&s=books&sprefix=the+captive+mind%2Cstripbooks%2C157&sr=1-1
 
Adam Roberts (Editor), Timothy Garton Ash (Editor) Civil Resistance and Power Politics: The Experience of Non-Violent Action from Gandhi to the Present
https://www.amazon.com/Civil-Resistance-Power-Politics-Non-violent/dp/0199691452/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=civil+resistance+and+power+politics&qid=1589575521&s=audible&sr=1-1-catcorr
 
Timothy Garton Ash, editor of the above, was one of the finest journalist-historians observering the events throughout the largely non-violent and grass roots revolutions in eastern Europe that toppled the Soviet system. A good one to start with is,The Polish Revolution: Solidarity, 
https://www.amazon.com/Polish-Revolution-Solidarity-Third/dp/0300095686/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&qid=1589575735&refinements=p_27%3ATimothy+Garton+Ash&s=books&sr=1-2&text=Timothy+Garton+Ash
 
and  The Magic Lantern, on varius other eastern european mass movements in the same vein  https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Lantern-Revolution-Witnessed-Budapest-ebook/dp/B004089I5Q/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1589575799&refinements=p_27%3ATimothy+Garton+Ash&s=books&sr=1-6&text=Timothy+Garton+Ash
 
 
There are many precedents for ripened contemplatives entering whole-heartedly into political action. Thomas Merton is among the most noted--- and, among a certain strain of old school Catholics, notorious; these are the people who never forgave him for not doing variations of The Seven-Storey Mountain for the rest of his life--- and his collection of essays, The Non-Violent Alternative shows the extent to which he was involved in the world in all its messiness, from his latter-years hermitage in Kentuckyl during the crisies of civil rights and Vietnam, among others, in the 1960s---  https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Merton/dp/0374515751/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+non-violent+alternative+merton&qid=1589575937&s=books&sr=1-1

l
ol, yeah, i know. books, books, books. you can make a new stack beside the stack of unread dharma books you can't find time to get to either.
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Olivier, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Yes ! Cool ! Thank you for the references. I was recently recommended Milosz, and had wanted to read Havel and Merton for a while. So i'll start (?) with those. Particularly curious about Havel here as it seems so relevant, great !


But, Tim Fucking F, fucking amazon ?  ^^
Tim Farrington, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Olivier:
Yes ! Cool ! Thank you for the references. I was recently recommended Milosz, and had wanted to read Havel and Merton for a while. So i'll start (?) with those. Particularly curious about Havel here as it seems so relevant, great !


But, Tim Fucking F, fucking amazon ?  ^^

ooops. independent booksellers, shoot me, i deserve it. i succumbed to ease. Olivier, my bad, but I AM bad. Feel free to offer more whatever-friendly links.

Start with the havel essay.
Tim Farrington, modified 12 Months ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 2460 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
emoticon

Theme song, courtesy of Smashmouth: Smashmouth, courtesy of John W, aka That Mad Rambler who only comes down from his cave once a full moon to yell Smashmouth lyrics at random villagers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gklwYGHYeGU&list=PL3KU7_vkKrAmBCksSCjxOtQ9bhfhDY515&index=38

"So Insane"

When was the last time you clocked-in?
There is a race to be run and a song to be sung
There is a fine line wearing thin

So don't look back the past has past
The future is coming fast
You better make room, we're coming through
Loud and clear


We got the hands to turn this around
We got the plan to make it go down
We got the voice filling this room
We got the minds, the minds that go boom
Get up get out get on that train
It's becoming so insane
This tiny blue marble is rolling away


Have ya checked out the temperature lately
There's a fever that's about to break
There is a game to be won and a song to be sung
This is our battle cry, make no mistake
So don't look back the past has past
The future is coming fast
You better make room, we're coming through
Loud and clear


We got the hands to turn this around
We got the plan to make it go down
We got the voice filling this room
We got the minds, the minds that go boom
Get up get out get on that train
It's becoming so insane
This tiny blue marble is rolling away


 
So don't look back the past has past
The future is coming fast
You better make room, we're coming through
Loud and clear

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Milo, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: Uncharted Territory

Posts: 365 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
We're through the rabbit hole now, or maybe we're still falling. Change is for always, but this might be Redd Foxx's Big One. What's clear to me is that a huge chunk of what thought we knew a few weeks ago is going to be very different. Things, they are a-changin', to quote somebody else.

My reaction is "bring it on."

I don't see an alternative, except maybe death, the odds of which seem a bit more likely now anyway for a geezer like me.

Seems like in a lot of cases it's a sudden acceleration of existing trends. C-Virus just gave things a shove and moved the schedule up a decade.

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