Where in the World are Chris Marti's Practice Logs? - Discussion
shargrol:
SCHISM!!!!!! SChismmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.
Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010, loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).
This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD.
However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog. It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period.
Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms?
2 cents
Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow
Nikolai .:
shargrol:
SCHISM!!!!!! SChismmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.
Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010, loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).
This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD.
However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog. It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period.
Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms?
2 cents
Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow
Nikolai .:
shargrol:
SCHISM!!!!!! SChismmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
First big schism was the actual freedom debacle which frightened off a bunch of original dharma underground folk from the DhO. 1st inklings were with Tarin talking about it in those classic "Get it done" audios taken at Daniel's Ranch. Then Tarin goes and presumably gets it done along with another DhO member, ruffling the originals' feathers (minus Daniel). They then go off elsewhere. It gets worse as Tarin and Co frighten everyone with their huge "shift" in the tone of their communications presumably giving off an emotionless robotic air....though this was argued to be people's own rose-tinted glasses making them react to those same communications. .....and thus Kenneth moves away and KFD is formed for the first lot of DhO refugees. . I think I missed this first main schism as I was busy working on getting to 1st path, 2009 was it? I think I got the instructions I needed from MTCB and the early 2008/2009 Dho just before this first major schism. I stopped reading the site and just practiced. Glad I did as I'm sure I would have been swayed by all the fuss.
Then I get to 1st path, joined KFD in early 2010. as well as still being at the DhO, but both had very different flavours back then. KFD had a lot of hand-holding and moderation, DhO was truly a free-or-all. Then some developments within the year of 2010, Kenneth gets into "direct mode" in September I think of 2010, loosely linked to actual freedom instructions, during or after Daniel's actual freedome experiments spawned by Tarin's presumed success (he was later cut loose from the Actual Freedom Trust site due to disclaiming actual freedom-another story. It truly is like Days of Our Lives).
This last radical shift in Kenneth's focus forced those in disagreement's hand as there was a major reaction to the tempering of what was perceived as "emotions/affect" . Thus they created their Dharma Refugee forum. I was on board at the time with Kenneth's 20 path system (hehe) so i remained with KFD.
However, shortly after, I also had my own mini-personal schism with Kenneth because there was a backflipping on "direct mode" and a be all bodhisatva phase and I was still into what I was doing, so I had to remain at my own refugee island on The Hamilton Project blog. It was probably only coming from where we both found ourselves perceptually, dealing with fresh baselines and no idea how to properly act from them. Pure hubris. With the passing of time and falling down a slow rolling descent down the rabbit hole (and having kids), it has all mellowed and I have no idea where that "energy" came from. So long ago now. If Kenneth reads this, sorry for being an arsehole. I was missing that "chip" that told me I was being one in the heat of that fresh basline shift "honeymoon" period.
Did I miss anything? Where there any other mini-schisms?
2 cents
Nick
Edited a few times for typos and extra info and sentence flow
You missed only a tiny detail likey of no importance whatsoever
Thanks to me joining The Hamilton Project back in ... 2011 I think you decided to create FORUM RULES 
(sorry for my bleedthroughs and for provoking you over at the Vipassanaforum.net which was earlier durng my arrogant A&P faze).Ah that Dhamma Drama
p.s. hope you and your family are doing well!
Hi Dusko,
Haha, I do remember that short lived period. You had a bit of a rollercoaster ride on that Vipassna forum too if I recall.
The HP Forum was also quite short lived. Funny how things played out. For the life of me now, i can't bring myself to participate in any divisiveness these days. That urge just doesnt seem to want to arise any more. Plus, my goal-orientatedness has shifted from "get somehwere" to "I have to clean, dress and feed my 3 years old."
My family are alive and so far virus free.
Hoping yours are as well. Cute baby!
You missed only a tiny detail likey of no importance whatsoever Thanks to me joining The Hamilton Project back in ... 2011 I think you decided to create FORUM RULES (sorry for my bleedthroughs and for provoking you over at the Vipassanaforum.net which was earlier durng my arrogant A&P faze).
Ah that Dhamma Drama
p.s. hope you and your family are doing well!
Haha, I do remember that short lived period. You had a bit of a rollercoaster ride on that Vipassna forum too if I recall.
The HP Forum was also quite short lived. Funny how things played out. For the life of me now, i can't bring myself to participate in any divisiveness these days. That urge just doesnt seem to want to arise any more. Plus, my goal-orientatedness has shifted from "get somehwere" to "I have to clean, dress and feed my 3 years old."
My family are alive and so far virus free.
Hoping yours are as well. Cute baby!
You missed only a tiny detail likey of no importance whatsoever
Thanks to me joining The Hamilton Project back in ... 2011 I think you decided to create FORUM RULES (sorry for my bleedthroughs and for provoking you over at the Vipassanaforum.net which was earlier durng my arrogant A&P faze).Ah that Dhamma Drama
p.s. hope you and your family are doing well!
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
There is a fast way to the no emotions stage, I have heard: lobotomy. It probably takes away some sense of agency as well.
Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.
Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.
Still wondering about this, why so many people, some of them fairly realized, felt (!) that emotions were such a problem that they would rather get rid of them than learn to deal with them skillfully. I mean, emotions are key to human experience AND they are "just" emotions. There's nothing dangerous about them per se.
What. a. Thread. Chris's practice blogs about the seeking for what little bit you're missing, that someone copied in above is solid gold, first of all. I could write volumes about, "What the fuck else do I have to see through? I've seen it all! What's left?!?!"
More tidbits ON THE SCHISM. I only can speak to the DhO side of it. I was never on KFD. I joined DhO back in 2010 and it's the only board I've been on. For no real reason. It just is. I was around when the Actual Freedom stuff was in full swing and lots and lots of folks jumped on the bandwagon. I was one of them. Some of us may have been perpetual Dark Nighters. Others, like me, were curious to see what it was about and open to experimentation.
I also think there was not an insignificant number who were in the no man's land of the middle paths, starting to see glimpses of "emptiness" and saw Actualism as some extension of that. Especially 3rd pathers when things become more obviously unbound in daily life. There was some Dzogchen influence starting to pop up on the board around that time too, so I think they felt like the whole "luminosity/emptiness" stuff from Dzogchen could align with it. Very easy to slip into what was called the Pure Consciousness Experience from there, which is the supposedly affectless state when everything glimmers and is utterly lucid and immediate without a center point - this is what maybe seemed aligned with the luminosity stuff. People who thought they were already post 4th path were talking alot about how there was more to be realized after finishing 4th. They figured Actualism was the way to that more. Whether these folks were actually post-4th path or lost somewhere in 3rd path was a mystery at the time (and still maybe is).
I ditched Actualism after a while after being bothered by abovementioned robotness of some of the folks who claimed they got AF. I also think Richard, the dude who started the AF Trust seems like a total fucking cult leader. He is incredibly rigid in his thinking in an all or nothing way, which I'm not a fan of. I also wondered if there was possibly some creeper shit going on with the women who were over there with him. There was definite guru worship happening on the part of his "followers". One or more of them were actually people who left cults in the past, so it doesn't seem too far off they'd get sucked into that world again if they hadn't resolved their trauma from it, or all sorts of other reasons.
Anyways, I think over time alot of people saw the writing on the wall and stopped practicing in the actualism way. I left DhO somewhere around 2015, but was already back to practicing insight & jhana by then. I recently joined up again and it's great to be back y'all.
Steph S:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
There is a fast way to the no emotions stage, I have heard: lobotomy. It probably takes away some sense of agency as well.
Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.
Why on earth would anyone want that? What kinds of emotions did all those people have to deal with in order for that to be appealing? It must have been horrible. Poor bastards! I have been depressed to the extent of experiencing no feelings at all. That was no life.
Still wondering about this, why so many people, some of them fairly realized, felt (!) that emotions were such a problem that they would rather get rid of them than learn to deal with them skillfully. I mean, emotions are key to human experience AND they are "just" emotions. There's nothing dangerous about them per se.
What. a. Thread. Chris's practice blogs about the seeking for what little bit you're missing, that someone copied in above is solid gold, first of all. I could write volumes about, "What the fuck else do I have to see through? I've seen it all! What's left?!?!"
More tidbits ON THE SCHISM. I only can speak to the DhO side of it. I was never on KFD. I joined DhO back in 2010 and it's the only board I've been on. For no real reason. It just is. I was around when the Actual Freedom stuff was in full swing and lots and lots of folks jumped on the bandwagon. I was one of them. Some of us may have been perpetual Dark Nighters. Others, like me, were curious to see what it was about and open to experimentation.
I also think there was not an insignificant number who were in the no man's land of the middle paths, starting to see glimpses of "emptiness" and saw Actualism as some extension of that. Especially 3rd pathers when things become more obviously unbound in daily life. There was some Dzogchen influence starting to pop up on the board around that time too, so I think they felt like the whole "luminosity/emptiness" stuff from Dzogchen could align with it. Very easy to slip into what was called the Pure Consciousness Experience from there, which is the supposedly affectless state when everything glimmers and is utterly lucid and immediate without a center point - this is what maybe seemed aligned with the luminosity stuff. People who thought they were already post 4th path were talking alot about how there was more to be realized after finishing 4th. They figured Actualism was the way to that more. Whether these folks were actually post-4th path or lost somewhere in 3rd path was a mystery at the time (and still maybe is).
I ditched Actualism after a while after being bothered by abovementioned robotness of some of the folks who claimed they got AF. I also think Richard, the dude who started the AF Trust seems like a total fucking cult leader. He is incredibly rigid in his thinking in an all or nothing way, which I'm not a fan of. I also wondered if there was possibly some creeper shit going on with the women who were over there with him. There was definite guru worship happening on the part of his "followers". One or more of them were actually people who left cults in the past, so it doesn't seem too far off they'd get sucked into that world again if they hadn't resolved their trauma from it, or all sorts of other reasons.
Anyways, I think over time alot of people saw the writing on the wall and stopped practicing in the actualism way. I left DhO somewhere around 2015, but was already back to practicing insight & jhana by then. I recently joined up again and it's great to be back y'all.
Steph, thank you for making this great thread greater with your own historical contribution. It's a sort of unfolding miracle, really, the thread turning into a magic story well, a fountain of grace and beauty, perspective, healing, forgiveness, and awesome actual nitty-gritty fascinating historical twists and turns of the sort that i am deeply into knowing, as a survivor of a few twists and turns myself. I do love the occasional lifted rug, to see what really got swept under there, and when, and why, and also to see how the sweepers are doing this far down the line. The sweepers here all seem like a bunch of softies, frankly. They've all got the heart disease, in the sense of actually having a heart, which appears to have been treated at certain points by certain schismatic splinters in the general crashing of the carpentry as fatal. (hint: it is. They all seem to have accepted that, as far as I can tell. The Buddha died too, that beautiful heart stopped beating. We are still trying to make sense of that all.)
" As I was watching the world unfold the thought came: “Who is seeing this?” And then the universe revealed its luminosity as me and any thought of doing or being melted away. I got up after some indeterminate time with tears on my face. Again."
This seems soooo Post SE stuff or? I did try to read it but it turns out I have better things to do for now; PRACTICE! But I do hope Chris will be kind enough to throw me a bone of wisdom once in a while, depending on where I am on the Path
I do wonder though how people read into stuff?
Lets say back in 2011 when I discovered MTCB1 I've read it all the way from start to DN. I did try and read more but soon realised I had no idea what he was talking about.
This is how I kept reading MTCB, only to the point where I was and applying useful suggestions from it. Would pick the book up ONLY when I felt some significant change to see if it was mentioned or not.
I've found that once you knew about Maps one can easily just forget about them and return to the Map only during some unusual, new experiences and tease a tip or two out of it.
To me Maps were so helpful about telling me that my meditaion being shred to bits was very NORMAL "relax its all good, take a breather". If I didnt know about the maps god knows what would happen to my life, my practice etc ...
This seems soooo Post SE stuff or?
I did try to read it but it turns out I have better things to do for now; PRACTICE! But I do hope Chris will be kind enough to throw me a bone of wisdom once in a while, depending on where I am on the Path I do wonder though how people read into stuff?
Lets say back in 2011 when I discovered MTCB1 I've read it all the way from start to DN. I did try and read more but soon realised I had no idea what he was talking about.
This is how I kept reading MTCB, only to the point where I was and applying useful suggestions from it. Would pick the book up ONLY when I felt some significant change to see if it was mentioned or not.
I've found that once you knew about Maps one can easily just forget about them and return to the Map only during some unusual, new experiences and tease a tip or two out of it.
To me Maps were so helpful about telling me that my meditaion being shred to bits was very NORMAL
"relax its all good, take a breather". If I didnt know about the maps god knows what would happen to my life, my practice etc ...
And just to add;
Out of all the reading and describtion of stages and paths I ALWAYS seem to pick up only a word or a phraze/concept that could be of benefit. Im kind of a Post-It meditator;
(meditaton based on knowing but not obsessing about the Insight Maps)
1. Freestyle Note Aloud (K. Folk)
2. Acceptance (Ingram)
3. 1-10 notes per second (Ingram)
4. Note the Urges (shargrol gave me this one over at AN forum)
5. Stop using smileys!!! (Chris Marti)
This is Papa's ENTIRE practice.
Its kind of a "Keep It Simpe Stupid" I like it!
Out of all the reading and describtion of stages and paths I ALWAYS seem to pick up only a word or a phraze/concept that could be of benefit. Im kind of a Post-It meditator;
(meditaton based on knowing but not obsessing about the Insight Maps)
1. Freestyle Note Aloud (K. Folk)
2. Acceptance (Ingram)
3. 1-10 notes per second (Ingram)
4. Note the Urges (shargrol gave me this one over at AN forum)
5. Stop using smileys!!! (Chris Marti)
This is Papa's ENTIRE practice.
Its kind of a "Keep It Simpe Stupid"
I like it!
Papa Che, you simple-ass prodigy of practice, what are you doing blabbing here at this hour about such things? Are you in Ireland or something? You've already sat your simple ass down for as long as you can stand? Get to work, Papa-ji! 
I ditched Actualism after a while after being bothered by abovementioned robotness of some of the folks who claimed they got AF. I also think Richard, the dude who started the AF Trust seems like a total fucking cult leader. He is incredibly rigid in his thinking in an all or nothing way, which I'm not a fan of. I also wondered if there was possibly some creeper shit going on with the women who were over there with him. There was definite guru worship happening on the part of his "followers". One or more of them were actually people who left cults in the past, so it doesn't seem too far off they'd get sucked into that world again if they hadn't resolved their trauma from it, or all sorts of other reasons.
That's well put, Steph. Glad I didn't have to say it
Having grown up LDS Mormon it very much reminds me of reading Rough Stone Rolling, seeing the founders of Mormonism reported as being very human and that revelation being totally exhilarating.
Ha! I was born in Park City, UT. Father LDS, mother Episcopal. I don't think Joseph Smith wanted you to know he was human. Brigham Young? Maybe.
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
The diary I made is not on DhO. It's on another system that some of us created when the Great Schism occurred on another system we created when the Great Schism occurred here.
Cue shargrol!
Cue shargrol!
edit: here's a good one:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8866107?_19_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%2Fdiscussion%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fsearch%3F_19_redirect%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%252Fdiscussion%252F-%252Fmessage_boards%252Frecent-posts%26_19_keywords%3Dschism%26_19_formDate%3D1586451928002%26_19_breadcrumbsCategoryId%3D0%26_19_searchCategoryId%3D0#_19_message_8866107
shargrol:
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
The diary I made is not on DhO. It's on another system that some of us created when the Great Schism occurred on another system we created when the Great Schism occurred here.
Cue shargrol!
Cue shargrol!
edit: here's a good one:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/8866107?_19_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%2Fdiscussion%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fsearch%3F_19_redirect%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%252Fdiscussion%252F-%252Fmessage_boards%252Frecent-posts%26_19_keywords%3Dschism%26_19_formDate%3D1586451928002%26_19_breadcrumbsCategoryId%3D0%26_19_searchCategoryId%3D0#_19_message_8866107
I am a cradle Catholic, and familar with Schisms since that Constantinople debacle. Thank you for the edit and tossing me a bone on the link. Now I want to know about KFD, OE, the Dharma Forum Refugees Camp, and awakenetwork. Is David Chapman the guy behind the Vividness and Meaningless blogs? Was he in the mix here at some point. Seriously, inquiring minds want the fucking dirt, guys. You scandal-light bastards need to come clean. I want my seminar!
Hibiscus Kid:
http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70
Edit: The link is correct but the server is being finicky. It may take a few attempts to open.
Edit: The link is correct but the server is being finicky. It may take a few attempts to open.
The link worked for me first time, HK, thank you so much. I'm only a short ways in, but am loving it. Chris,
.
Tim Farrington:
Hibiscus Kid:
http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70
Edit: The link is correct but the server is being finicky. It may take a few attempts to open.
Edit: The link is correct but the server is being finicky. It may take a few attempts to open.
The link worked for me first time, HK, thank you so much. I'm only a short ways in, but am loving it. Chris,
.
I'll come back later today, after I do some real-life gig stuff, to weave some of that tale, but I can't violate any, um, confidences
i know, or can imagine, but would truly love to see what can shake out of that tree legitimately and with metta.
Chris Marti:
I'll come back later today, after I do some real-life gig stuff, to weave some of that tale, but I can't violate any, um, confidences
We are still waiting...
Griffin:
Chris Marti:
I'll come back later today, after I do some real-life gig stuff, to weave some of that tale, but I can't violate any, um, confidences
We are still waiting...
and waiting . . .
Chris Marti:
Ah that controling of Urge
I'm speechless. That dog is my new teacher! Waaaaait! Waaaaaait! Waaaaaaait! Attaboy
Papa Che Dusko:
Chris Marti:
Ah that controling of Urge
I'm speechless. That dog is my new teacher! Waaaaait! Waaaaaait! Waaaaaaait! Attaboy
Hold your enthusiasm, please, Papaji, and keep a safe social distance, we're cooking with gas here!
That dog is ME, you [ugly personal attack deleted, per DhO forum rules]!
So... what about that Kenneth Folk stuff again? I feel sort of warmed up now with some of the more important stuff out of the way
Chris Marti:
So... what about that Kenneth Folk stuff again? I feel sort of warmed up now with some of the more important stuff out of the way
Just start ambling toward SCHISM story by story, in baby steps, until we hear someone scream, then we'll pause to review.
Chris Marti:
I like hearing the history. There is a part of me that is a bit guilty about hearing the gossip, but I also think more transparency is always better.
Brandon, remember, you started this thread!
I would like to say, by way of a sort-of disclaimer . . .
Besides, Tim tells me people love history, especially in the form of gossip, innuendo, and mud-slinging. He puts on a good air but that's what he's really after.
love, tim
--(ohm)