RE: Direct Pointing in Action

RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/3/11 9:19 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/4/11 11:28 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/5/11 3:38 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/5/11 4:45 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/5/11 10:26 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/6/11 3:06 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/6/11 3:55 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/7/11 3:05 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Stian Gudmundsen Høiland 7/7/11 6:57 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/7/11 9:48 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/7/11 9:00 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action End in Sight 7/7/11 10:43 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Sanjay 7/8/11 4:01 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/8/11 7:49 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/8/11 10:07 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/8/11 1:55 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/8/11 10:22 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/9/11 1:19 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/9/11 4:19 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/9/11 4:48 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action mico mico 7/6/11 3:13 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/6/11 4:21 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action mico mico 7/6/11 4:41 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/11/11 2:11 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/11/11 10:01 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/12/11 10:26 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/12/11 2:18 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/13/11 5:48 AM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action R. Gabriel Hill 7/13/11 9:58 PM
RE: Direct Pointing in Action Florian 7/16/11 2:49 AM
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/3/11 9:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/3/11 9:19 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 27 Join Date: 5/4/10 Recent Posts
Howsabout you give it a go, Florian? emoticon
Your presence on DhO has always been uncommonly level-headed, pragmatic, and intelligent. I'd like to see THAT put into action via this method. Nothing to loose, right?
All the best,
G.
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/4/11 11:28 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/4/11 11:28 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Hi Gabriel,

Oh, cool. I'll assert that a self that deserves the name is not part of my experience - i.e. doesn't exist. How about you? How does your sense of self make itself known, if at all?

Cheers,
Florian
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/5/11 3:38 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/5/11 3:38 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 27 Join Date: 5/4/10 Recent Posts
Me and my big mouth! emoticon
Alright, I'm game.
Okay, at the moment, my sense of self appears to be not a single thing, but rather a ragged collection of ideas, images, impressions, opinions, and memories. I understand, intellectually, that there is no entity or object that is the Self. I can pause at any moment during the day, look for a Self, and there is truly never one to be found. And yet there is a strong element that still seems to think that it is the thing that produces those ideas, opinions, preferences, etc. Why?
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/5/11 4:45 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/5/11 4:45 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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The "Why" is a ruse, disregard it for now.

Instead describe that "strong element that still seems to think that it is the thing that produces those ideas, opinions, preferences".
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/5/11 10:26 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/5/11 10:26 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Okay- I'm dusting off my rhetoric cap here, Florian.
The mysterious element of Self. It is that which the aforementioned phenomena of memories, thoughts, opinions, etc. gravitate towards and circulate around. This particular little orbit of phenomena that is exlusive to me. Those things, intangible as they are, appear to add up to a discrete individual that has the name "Gabriel" and which moves about in some sort of consensus reality, interacting with others that are more or less put together in the same manner. This all adds up to a sense of a discrete, solid self.
(I know this is nothing new, but I'm just working thru it out loud here, partly for the sake of exploring the method fully, and partly because I'm thick headed... Bear with me.)
And as I said before, when I look for an "it", nothing is there: No object that is the Self, no special space for Self to reside in. There is no flavor or quality of Self that can be described phenomenologically. This is not just something I was told to think or read somewhere, this is completely experiential, and I'm quite sure of that experience. All I have to do is pause for a moment and this becomes perfectly clear.
Perhaps the Self is best described as nothing other than the illusion of separateness from the rest of the Universe.
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 3:06 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 3:06 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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How do you know the phenomena of memories, thoughts, opinions, etc are gravitating around something? What is telling you that, what sensations indicate that? Describe that sense of gravitating - type as you look, forget about the rhetoric.
mico mico, modified 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 3:13 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 3:13 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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R. Gabriel Hill:
Perhaps the Self is best described as nothing other than the illusion of separateness from the rest of the Universe.

Self is a word, that is used to mark/make that demarcation of an individual separate from the world. That separation doesn't exist as a given, but it is apparent functionally in the dynamics of relations that arise, and so is a highly sensible distinction to employ. The illusion comes form the mistake of thinking that words must map to things, and that those things must be phenomenologicaly discoverable. Notice how you claim to be unable to find a Self in experience. Why do you think that is where 'it' should be found?
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 3:55 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 3:55 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 27 Join Date: 5/4/10 Recent Posts
"How do you know the phenomena of memories, thoughts, opinions, etc are gravitating around something?"
I know this because the vast majority of these phenomena are all "Gabriel flavored". A definite pattern exists to all these little bits and traces that collectively I call myself, and I don't confuse memories of my past with those of a leopard in the foothills of China, or those of the concrete sidewalk, or those of my Grandmother. There is a coherent me-ness when I examine this kind of phenomena, and is appears to be mine alone.

"What is telling you that, what sensations indicate that?"
Experience tells me this. For example, I had dinner with my parents and sisters the other night. It was interesting to note how often we reinforce each other's sense of me-ness. It was recollected how one of my sisters said something particularly funny at some point in the past. We all agreed that she had, and she remembered she had. The building blocks for her "funniness" fell very easily into place.

"Describe that sense of gravitating - type as you look, forget about the rhetoric."
Memories of work day arising, fading. Familiar sensations of buzzing in belly, pulse in hands, fingers. Phone ringing in other room- familiar annoyance. Relaxing back and neck- remembering crappy pillow. Girlfriend's footsteps and voice in next room- pleasantness. Tension in legs, ankles. Memories of riding bicycle in sun- pleasantness. Looking for self- neutral, calmness, quietness. Focusing on silence- interest, engagement. Hearing cars passing on street. Seagulls call. Looking for self- strong sense of emptiness, silence, pleasantness. Humming fan. Squeaking door hinge.

Overall, I still get the impression that the above paragraph is so self-referential, both in the larger and more mundane senses of the term.

Also, am I providing enough or too much info here? Tell me where to dig in or lay off, and I will!
Thanks for your time in this experiment!
G.
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 4:21 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 4:21 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Mico Mico-
Yeah, you're absolutly right, and I'm not holding my breath in trying to find a singular thing that is the Self. In this line of inquiry, I guess the primary interest is to uncover this mystery of mis-identification, or at least not worry about it. After a few years of very dedicated practice in MCTB-style Vipassana, I still havn't cracked this No-Self issue to full satisfaction. I feel like I am, in a way, working with a schizoid awareness: One that sees clearly that there is no Self, and yet one that more commonly still refers to a Self. Folks who I trust have attained Stream Entry, or any Path, speak with a certainty about these matters, and I can't claim that myself, but rather, seem to teeter forever on the edge of resolving this.

"Notice how you claim to be unable to find a Self in experience. Why do you think that is where 'it' should be found? "
I see what you mean, but maybe I was unclear in what I said earlier: I meant that there certainly is no book or person or whatever out there that can somehow give this understanding to a person, and that ultimately, it must be sought out for one's self. So it has been so far. But if you know the name of the book that bestows enlightenment to all it's readers, then let's hear about it already! ;D
Any suggestions on where to look for 'it'? How to look?

Thanks,
G.
mico mico, modified 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 4:41 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/6/11 4:41 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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R. Gabriel Hill:
I feel like I am, in a way, working with a schizoid awareness: One that sees clearly that there is no Self, and yet one that more commonly still refers to a Self.

Are they really that different?

R. Gabriel Hill:
Folks who I trust have attained Stream Entry, or any Path, speak with a certainty about these matters

But if they wrote it down, that wouldn't make your magic book would it? ;)

R. Gabriel Hill:
..and I can't claim that myself, but rather, seem to teeter forever on the edge of resolving this.

Sounds like a better place to be. What if the answer is on that edge?

R. Gabriel Hill:
"Notice how you claim to be unable to find a Self in experience. Why do you think that is where 'it' should be found?"

Any suggestions on where to look for 'it'? How to look?

Is there anywhere to look, except in experience?
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 3:05 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 3:05 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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It's not really about providing info - more like looking closely and describing what you find.

Describe the coherence. What makes you associate this with "you", how does the sense of ownership present? Sounds like there's a spatial component there? Borders? Is it evenly distributed? Don't answer these questions, look and describe.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 6:57 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 6:54 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 296 Join Date: 9/5/10 Recent Posts
I don't understand.

What are you looking for?

I mean, what are you looking for?

I mean, what are you looking for?

Because we agree, you are not looking for self. Right?
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 9:00 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 9:00 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Getting closer. I've really been looking into this deeply.
Looking into my memory, for example, only ONE story comes up. That's the coherent Me-ness I'm referring to.
Now, when I look at what at least SEEMS to generate this experience, or better yet, what perceives the many elements of Me-ness, there is nothing, absolutely nothing. No object, no Self. Just the pieces of a familiar story. There is just this: a memory happening. A memory fading. A mind searching.
I don't own any of this. I've never really own anything at all, ever.
Hands pushing buttons reading words analyzing thoughts muscles moving fingers, but no Self appears in any of this. Tension in belly, hearing fan, memory, hunger, aching, interest. Yes. All of this is here right now, arising and passing away. No Self. The self is a fiction, the self is a supposition of something due to the appearing of phenomena.
It still seems like something is perceiving this, though. Something to refer to this as "happening now". Something other than inert matter in a deterministic Universe. This subtle and seductive impression I take as another "object", not a true Self or center point.
And so I calmly, and with sober mind, look again, and the looking reveals the Nothingness, again and again.
A rock, falling thru infinite space has exactly as much meaning as my "self".
All this looking for Emptiness and there isn't even anything to be empty of, actually.
These are not words copied from some other place, some other record of awakening. This is what is as close to the living, breathing truth as this individual can come to right now.
So. Is this enlightenment?
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 9:48 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 9:48 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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"Because we agree, you are not looking for self. Right?"
Actually, we are! emoticon But if only to prove that there is nothing there, in real time, with precise results.
We are exploring the "looking", piece by grueling piece. I know it must seem odd without the proper introduction. You might want to read the "Hardcore Direct Pointing" thread or check out the forum at ruthlesstruth.com for more context.
Briefly, though, this thread is an experiment with a certain method (as far as I know, called Direct Pointing) of pointing out the illusion of a Self. The illustrious Mr. Florian Weps is guiding my unrealized, pre-stream entry ass thru the process, step by step, of how my thinking/conditioned mind is getting in the way of seeing through the illusion.
(So far, I can tell you that the method is really efficient in rapidly deflating a lot of basic assumptions. For this alone, I can see it's value for any practitioner of any tradition.)
You are absolutely right in asking: What are you looking for?
Where is it?
What is it?
End in Sight, modified 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 10:43 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/7/11 10:43 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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(Just to chime in, I'm really excited by how this is turning out. Florian, Gabriel, thanks for putting in the effort to do this. Seriously.

Continue...)
Sanjay, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 4:01 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 4:01 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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R. Gabriel Hill:
Getting closer. I've really been looking into this deeply.

................
................


So. Is this enlightenment?


Nice emoticon


How is the sense of 'I' when you have to direct your attention to something.

For me a strong sense of I comes up as I direct the attention to any thing.

for now this director of attention is the strongest one i am experiancing emoticon
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 10:07 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 10:07 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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R. Gabriel Hill:
The self is a fiction, the self is a supposition of something due to the appearing of phenomena.
It still seems like something is perceiving this, though. Something to refer to this as "happening now". Something other than inert matter in a deterministic Universe. This subtle and seductive impression I take as another "object", not a true Self or center point.


Good!

Look at this seductive impression again, describe it some more? Take your time.

It's quite safe to look, you know.

There's nothing there that could hurt, even though you might be reluctant to get too close, as if treating an old injury with care.

And so I calmly, and with sober mind, look again, and the looking reveals the Nothingness, again and again.
A rock, falling thru infinite space has exactly as much meaning as my "self".
All this looking for Emptiness and there isn't even anything to be empty of, actually.


Yeah, it can't be owned, can it? "This is not me, not mine, not myself".

These are not words copied from some other place, some other record of awakening. This is what is as close to the living, breathing truth as this individual can come to right now.
So. Is this enlightenment?


You tell me. How have the past few hours been like?

Cheers!
Florian
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 1:55 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 1:55 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 27 Join Date: 5/4/10 Recent Posts
The last day or so has been interesting, and a little bit frustrating. Moments and occationally five or ten seconds of very bright, wide, simple awareness occurs. It really feels like what an accomplished Advaita-practitioner friend of mine called the "magician's trick of pulling out the table cloth": Everything remains as it is, but is seen without a constant filtering of "Me-ness".
Something extremely vast emerges at those times. (Damn! Words are very inadequate here.)
But then, the Self will recognize what's happening and swoop in and quickly reassemble the old way of looking with the endless iterations of mind, of obsessive me-ness, of calculating. It feels like zooming quickly in on a pure fractal shape, which seemed so simple at first and then so rapidly becomes infinitely complex.
There is a magnetism between the thing we're calling Self and sensory input. It's like deeply embedded need to fill the vaccuum left behind. This must just be what Buddhists call "conditioning", I suppose, but at an extremely fine level.
I don't feel afraid, or at least, I see that I can just look at the thing called "fear" and know it for what it is. It's more like confusion is the problem here. I'd like very much to walk thru the gateless gate, but I keep banging my head on the way in! Do I just try to forcefully maintain the simple way of being aware? Is it like weight training, where I just gradually increase the amount I attempt to lift? Or should one approach it in an even softer way, and let it happen when it happens?
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:49 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 7:49 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Sanjay M:



How is the sense of 'I' when you have to direct your attention to something.



Sanjay-
Usually, for the most part of the day, the sense of 'I' is still pretty strong, like the thing I direction attention to is 'mine' in the sense that it's 'my experience' of that thing. Upon enacting this method throughout the day, however, there's more of a tendency to feel a spaciousness around those same things. Those things seem to be happening whithin a seamless flow, rather than in bits and pieces that I try to fit together into 'my story'.
Does that make sense?
And thank you for the encouragement!
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 10:22 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/8/11 10:22 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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I don't get it.
What is the source of this resistance?
Perhaps the Self is a pattern of behavior, not the source of behavior, or a thing better than the pattern of behavior that I'm trying to undo.
And yet it remains. There is no click or shift or "ah-ha!", just this continual loop of:
Pressure, seeing, urgency, focusing, relaxing, sensing Self, looking for Self, sensing no Self, pressure, relaxing, warmth, sensing Self, looking for Self, sensing no Self, anxiety, pulsing, relaxing. Etc.
What breaks the loop?
I can see the Self set among all the other sensations that are continually manifesting.
The Self is a trick, a diversion, a misinterpretation, yeah yeah, I get that- but from WHAT? If there is nothing to be defended, then what is doing the defending?
It's actually quite maddening.
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 1:19 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 1:19 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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I think it would be good if you went through that last post of yours, from "I don't get it" to "...maddening", line by line, and discard everything you are not sure of.

Just find out what you know for sure, and post that.
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 4:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 4:19 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Hahaha! Thanks for not letting me get too far off track, Florian! (Sorry about the histrionics. Let's blame that last post on too much coffee.)
And you're quite right. There is only one true statement out of all that mess: "I can see the Self set among all the other sensations that are continually manifesting." That much is I can stand by as true.
At the moment, the Self does not seem compelling or persuasive at all, it's just another bit of information, like a notion or opinion. There is a lot of space around everything, all senses and impressions. That sense of Self is quite impermanent, not solid, just like all other things. Even within a single minute, there can be at least a dozen moments without any Self "self-ing": Momentary things, like a bird call outside the window, will attract just pure attention, not the attention of the Self. The Self can then quickly slip in immediately thereafter, as a reaction to a reaction, but not as a continuous thing that needs to happen in order for the Universe to hang together.
This is what is being experienced right now. This much is true.
Working hard on this, and will continue to report.
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 4:48 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/9/11 4:48 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Good!

So, those moments without the self doing its thing. Interesting, aren't they?

What can you say about the self with regards to those moments?

Does it exist then? It doesn't.

So by what rights can it claim to be the same self across such moments of non-existence? I mean, really?

And since sameness across many instances is what makes the self recognizable, yet the self can't really claim that sameness - well? what of it?

Go, question the hell out of that thing that claims to be a self, somehow continuous even across gaps of complete non-existence. What case can it make for itself? What holes can you find in its defence?
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/11/11 2:11 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/11/11 2:11 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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How are you doing, Gabriel?
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/11/11 10:01 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/11/11 10:01 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Well, it was an interesting weekend as I kept up this mode of inquiry, along with regular meditation, while being a groomsman in the wedding of a dear friend. Many mind states to explore and question the reality of the Self, often with a glass of champagne in my hand! So, obviously, I wasn't maintaining laser-like focus on this one issue alone for every moment of the day, but I was very happy to try this way of looking (which is really what it seems to boil down to, in my experience) away from the more quiet, introspective environment of my own home.
I found something that may be of interest to others who come from a Vipassana background who are engaged with this technique. I had to do away with the frequent mental noting that I've become used to in the last year or so in order to really look at the objects around me in a "Self-less" way- just couldn't do the two together. The many things I was noting, on and off the cushion, were so often regarded as part of a story, "my story", even if that was entirely unconscious. This really answers my one big question of noting No-Self/Emptiness in the context of the classical Three Characteristics (Q: "Why is No-Self not always seen clearly?" A: Because there's nothing to be seen." Of course, this is easy to say, but much more tricky to know, in your bones.) So, a big help.
This is not to say that I am not attempting to maintain mindfulness throughout the day, but I feel like my take on it has necessarily matured, and has, in a single leap, become more relevant, useful and organic.
In other regards, I feel like a failure. "Why havn't I popped yet?" "Why does everyone else get it but me?" "Am I really doing this the right way?" It's that last question that may be worth asking. What exactly IS the technique behind this method? What does it really mean to "Look" at the truth? You do it with your eyes, right? Well, that's literally what I've been doing. Just looking at things, and cutting off the discursive mind when it tries to pour back in in a couple seconds time. It takes effort like this.
When I look at the contents of my own mind, the things that make up "Me", I see a closet full of clothes. Interchangable elements, some of which certainly don't fit, or were poorly tailored to begin with, and made of cheap material. The origins of most are questionable, at best. Relatively little is worth a damn. And I can walk away from them at any time, and come back to them- they'll still be there.
Duality, Non-Duality, whatever. Just more concepts to clutter up my closet. I'll throw those two out and see what happens. While still engaged in this method cheerfully, I feel that only in the last day or so have I equally as cheerfully tossed aside my forgone assumptions about what will happen, what it will look like, what it will result in- not just this method, but this LIFE.
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/12/11 10:26 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/12/11 10:26 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Heh. I hope it was good Champagne, too? Good job there.

Mindfulness throughout the day: That's a good thing to aim for, in general, so go for it by all means! - but it's got nothing to do with pointing-out.

R. Gabriel Hill:
In other regards, I feel like a failure. "Why havn't I popped yet?" "Why does everyone else get it but me?" "Am I really doing this the right way?" It's that last question that may be worth asking. What exactly IS the technique behind this method? What does it really mean to "Look" at the truth? You do it with your eyes, right? Well, that's literally what I've been doing. Just looking at things, and cutting off the discursive mind when it tries to pour back in in a couple seconds time. It takes effort like this.


Why are you cutting off the discursive thoughts? They just happen, like a song stuck in your ear, like breathing, like digestion.

Sure, you can exert a bit of control over most of these processes, and that's generally a big chunk of what the "self" seems to be: this possibility of a bit of control. But it's not true that they are generally controllable. Not breathing, not digestion, and not thoughts either.

So, what can you tell about control? Don't speculate, describe exactly what you find.

When I look at the contents of my own mind, the things that make up "Me", I see a closet full of clothes. Interchangable elements, some of which certainly don't fit, or were poorly tailored to begin with, and made of cheap material. The origins of most are questionable, at best. Relatively little is worth a damn. And I can walk away from them at any time, and come back to them- they'll still be there.


So, those are not you, there's no magic kingdom in that closet with a throne waiting for you. Great, tick it off.

Describe the control thing. Report what you find.
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/12/11 2:18 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/12/11 2:18 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

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Okay. You make some good points.
Control: You're exactly right that it asserts itself in this area. Here's how it goes for me: Walking down a path thru the woods yesterday, for example, I see a small stone on the ground before me. Ordinary stone, not some sparkling gem, but without any need or reason, my awareness simply rests there with it for a second or two. For that brief period, there is a window of complete clarity before the sense of self surges back. In the last week or so of enacting this method, the returning voice has more and more often excitedly said "There! Another moment of Self-lessness!" followed shortly by, "Yes, the Self is truly a fractured illusion, Impermanant as any other phenomena I can find." And then, "Wait. I'm back to the Self again." And I wait for the next moment of Self-lessness to present itself, and the loop continues.
The urge to control (I'm figuring this out as I write, so bear with me) comes in at that point right after the seeing, when the mental dialog begins again. I see now that there is basically a (fictitious) Self trying to sustain something (No-Self), to solidify and control something that simply cannot be dealt with in that way.
Huh! Hadn't realized that before. Thanks, Florian, that's really a big help!
(And just for the sake of good record-keeping, I will say that, happily, the kind of instance above has been happening at increasing intervals in the last week. On the other hand, and not so happily, this process has exacerbated a certain frenetic energy in me ((and some others who've done this same work, by the looks of it over at the RT forum)), of an almost jarring sense of switching between "I've really got it now!" and "This is impossible!", with very little ground between those two.)
So. Control. A Self that is illusory wants to get rid of it's Self. That's a hell of a conundrum, and it seems to be my current issue.
I'll have to chew on this one a while.... Thanks again for the insight here!
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/13/11 5:48 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/13/11 5:48 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
"Figuring it out as you write" can be very simple, very strong practice. Just don't get lost in speculation, but drill down on what is true. So go ahead, right here if you like.

The "I've got it" - ''this is impossible" something-that's-not-there-trying-to-get-rid-of-itself thing - does that have a spatial component - i.e. is there a "place" where you could have a good, hard, honest look to see if there's even anything there to cause such hustle and bustle? Worth a try (Alexander chopping the Gordian knot).
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R Gabriel Hill, modified 11 Years ago at 7/13/11 9:58 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/13/11 9:58 PM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 27 Join Date: 5/4/10 Recent Posts
Not exactly sure what you mean by "a place"- are you talking about conditions in general to do this kind of looking?
If so, then I'd say, yes. I find it's best to have a modicum of quiet and maybe even a private place to talk it through out loud to get beyond the thorny loop of "got it, lost it". Things get too vague, too quickly when it's all done in the head.
Something interesting: Woke up in the middle of the night last night with no idea of who I was. Felt so suddenly unburdened, like I had remembered some lost secret from long ago, but there was no need to pursue it or define it, the world was turning on it's own, and no words or thoughts had any importance (though they kept coming).
Watched the dim light of the midnight sun filter in from behind window shade, casting a long streak of vague green glow across the ceiling, and casually remarked that that phenomena was no different from the thoughts I was having, or the dim traces of the dream I had had, or the distant urge to go back to sleep because of work the next day. In fact, there was no separation between any phenomena, just this flowing of all things, of one thing into another, sensations of all kinds intermingling. This was not a bliss state, dissassociative, or hallucinatory in any way, just naked awareness, watching the world. And quite relieving, at that.
Remembered the involvement with this method and noted a distinct lack of care about it at all! The strain of searching, of validating No-Self seemed so silly, and in fact superficial. All things were arising, I knew not from where, and it really didn't matter one bit. I thought about testing this experience somehow, to find out if it was simply a "state".... Kinda wishing I did something more demonstrative, but, lazy fool that I am, I thought to myself, "Well, if things are like this in the morning, guess I'll know that it's done."
Woke up, that non-attached, simple, powerful way of Seeing was seriously faded, but still there. All day, and even now there remains a certain resonance, a feeling of sensuous panorama and interdependence between any thing I come into contact with. But, eventually I found myself grasping, trying to convince myself that I was still seeing things in the same manner, until I had to admit that I wasn't when I began trying to logically prove that "I" don't exist.
Not sure what this was, but it felt like a definite "shift" at the time, and felt definitely related to the Direct Pointing method.
Will continue to report.
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Florian, modified 11 Years ago at 7/16/11 2:49 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/16/11 2:49 AM

RE: Direct Pointing in Action

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
I left you my skype and mail addresses in a PM