"So what is one mind, what is no mind and what is original mind in this context? One mind is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace.No mind is just one mind except that there is evenness till the last trace is gone. Like what explains in the text. Uji... all is time therefore no time.When you go from dual to non dual or one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences... If you got the condition to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages to climb... that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom." - John Tan, 2020 (Note by Soh: the original mind spoken here does not mean some unborn metaphysical primordial mind such as the I AM, but the originally, already-is nature of mind -- empty of itself -- "originally there never was a mind", empty of all self/Self) Also see: Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta

Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
(How 7 phases map - I AM = stage 1 and 2, One Mind to No Mind = stage 4, Anatta = stage 5)

Oct
24
Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
Also see No Mind and Anatta, Focusing on Insight  https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/11/no-mind-and-anatta-focusing-on-insight.html


Conversations with Thusness 2009-2013 on I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta:

(9:12 PM) Thusness: no mind is an experience, it is not an insight
(9:14 PM) Thusness: ppl that have experienced no-mind knows there is such experience and aims towards achieving it again.
(9:14 PM) Thusness: but insight is different...it is a direct experiential realization.
(9:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:14 PM) Thusness: that all along it is so.

(11:19 PM) Thusness: u may have no-mind as an experience and understood that there is such an experience as simple manifestation or just the radiant world
(11:19 PM) Thusness: but still it remains as a stage
(11:19 PM) Thusness: u have no idea that it is a wrong view
(11:20 PM) Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds'
a mistaken view shaping our entire experience
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:23 PM) AEN: dharma dan calls it the knot of perception rite
(11:23 PM) Thusness: yes
(11:23 PM) AEN: so no mind is a strage?
stage
(11:24 PM) Thusness: no-mind is the peak of non-dual, the natural state of non-dual
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic
(11:24 PM) Thusness: where the background is completely gone
(11:25 PM) Thusness: very often a practitioner in an advance phase of non-dual and One Mind, will naturally knows the importance of no-mind.
And that becomes the practice
they know they have to be there
(11:26 PM) Thusness: however, to come to this natural state of non-dual where the background is deemed irrelevant, it requires insight of anatta.


(12:09 AM) Thusness: and say yes, u realized ur mistake. wrote too fast.
Awareness is just a label...
(12:11 AM) Thusness: some of the texts u quoted are also misleading
(12:12 AM) Thusness: when one spoke to others in longchen forum, some is to lead one into non-dual from "I AM" coz they can't accept anatta insight but is able to penetrate non-dual.
(12:13 AM) Thusness: when anatta insight arises, one realizes there is no background
(12:14 AM) Thusness: when insight of emptiness arise, then all is just sharing the same taste, luminous yet empty
(12:14 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness: that is, i do not see Awareness, just a luminous manifestation
there is no sense of Self/self
or Awareness
(12:16 AM) Thusness: there is always only sound, forms, smell...sweetness....hardness...thoughts...
effortlessly manifesting
(12:16 AM) Thusness: non-dually experienced
(12:18 AM) Thusness: in terms of actual experience, what that is written in the forum is not enough
(12:18 AM) Thusness: the intensity of luminosity isn't there.
(12:19 AM) Thusness: first u go through the "I AM" for a period first
later u will understand what i mean


(12:12 AM) Thusness: not by way of non-identification.
(12:13 AM) Thusness: by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist
(12:15 AM) Thusness: if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent?
(12:16 AM) AEN: intermittent
(12:17 AM) Thusness: so how is one without the realization have a permanent experience of no-mind? There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless experience of all sensate experiences without self?


Thusness: ...To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -




15/4/13 12:23:19 AM: John Tan: (One Mind) Means consciousness is of true existing like a container
15/4/13 12:23:54 AM: John Tan: Consciousness is not in the body but the body is in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:25 AM: John Tan: Sound arises in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:56 AM: John Tan: Therefore consciousness doesn't change
15/4/13 12:25:58 AM: John Tan: The other (No Mind) is as if consciousness is the substance of matter
15/4/13 12:27:36 AM: John Tan: When we say sound-consciousness, there is no such thing as sound and sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:27:59 AM: John Tan: That sound is the sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:28:24 AM: John Tan: There is no such thing as sound
15/4/13 12:28:36 AM: John Tan: Or sound-conscious
15/4/13 12:29:04 AM: John Tan: When we say I hear sound



15/4/13 12:34:19 AM: John Tan: How do u differentiate one mind from no mind to anatta?
15/4/13 12:34:43 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In no mind there is no subsuming involved there is only manifestation
15/4/13 12:34:47 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But as an experience
15/4/13 12:35:07 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In anatta there is insight into no agent in seeing just seen pure manifestation
15/4/13 12:35:20 AM: Soh Wei Yu: One mind is subsuming but yet nondual is experienced
15/4/13 12:37:11 AM: John Tan: One mind is u r always looking at an ultimate mind behind, u r not looking at manifestation
15/4/13 12:37:26 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But it's not I Am right
15/4/13 12:37:36 AM: John Tan: Yes it is not
15/4/13 12:38:18 AM: Soh Wei Yu: It's like integrating foreground as being an aspect of background
15/4/13 12:38:28 AM: John Tan: Everything is consumed into the source (for One Mind)
15/4/13 12:39:24 AM: John Tan: I m is just the pure background behind but external objects r not subsumed into it...like separate
15/4/13 12:39:48 AM: John Tan: I m I ....dualistic

15/4/13 12:41:53 AM: John Tan: In this case (One Mind) all is being consumed/subsumed into the source
15/4/13 12:42:45 AM: John Tan: Sound is consciousness is not one mind but no mind

15/4/13 12:44:02 AM: John Tan: When the hearer is gone and there is only sound, that sound is precisely consciousness
15/4/13 12:45:15 AM: John Tan: That is the experience of no-mind

15/4/13 12:50:31 AM: John Tan: No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that
15/4/13 12:51:22 AM: John Tan: But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same
15/4/13 12:52:09 AM: John Tan: Like sky is not the flowing cloud


John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:25am UTC+08

But this is also good so that the point that a practitioner may hv clear experience of no mind but a view of one mind..
John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:26am UTC+08

Thus view, experience and realization


15/4/13 12:53:28 AM: John Tan: Anatta is a realization that there isn't a consciousness besides sound, scenery...etc
15/4/13 12:56:15 AM: John Tan: U c through reification of that agent and get in touch with the base manifestation where the label rely upon
15/4/13 12:57:02 AM: John Tan: So sound is the actual consciousness is referring to
15/4/13 12:57:36 AM: John Tan: There is no consciousness other than that

15/4/13 1:01:13 AM: John Tan: When they see through reification, then phenomena has a different meaning
15/4/13 1:02:04 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as awareness is not one mind
15/4/13 1:02:52 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as the same unchanging mind is the problem
15/4/13 1:04:09 AM: John Tan: When u c through reification, u realized "awareness" is just a label point to these manifestations
15/4/13 1:04:32 AM: John Tan: So there is nothing wrong saying that
15/4/13 1:05:24 AM: John Tan: Only when we treat awareness to b of true existence then we r deluded because there isn't any
15/4/13 1:11:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
15/4/13 1:11:36 AM: John Tan: In hearing, there is only sound
15/4/13 1:11:57 AM: John Tan: Hearing implies the presence of sound

14/5/13 9:39:15 PM: John Tan: One mind is different
14/5/13 9:40:04 PM: John Tan: One mind as I told u is the witness is gone but subsume into an overarching Awareness
14/5/13 9:40:31 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Is there a distinct phase of one mind in your seven stages?
14/5/13 9:40:48 PM: John Tan: Phase 4
14/5/13 9:41:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But u said phase 4 u already realised anatta and experience no mind?
14/5/13 9:41:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So does that mean the insight already arise by tendency to sink back to one mind is still there
14/5/13 9:42:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But
14/5/13 9:42:17 PM: John Tan: All such gray area is put onto phase 4 insight when view isn't completely clear
14/5/13 9:42:44 PM: John Tan: There is no way to describe the grey scale
14/5/13 9:43:24 PM: John Tan: Even in anatta there r so many different degree of refinements
14/5/13 9:43:34 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
14/5/13 9:43:59 PM: John Tan: But it is not practical to talk abt all
14/5/13 9:44:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. U mean not describable
14/5/13 9:45:32 PM: John Tan: No...not that it is not describable but not practical to describe
14/5/13 9:46:48 PM: John Tan: Like AF is part of the deviation looking into purely physical flesh and blood of pure experience ... Some went into details some does not
14/5/13 9:47:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What do u mean by went into details
14/5/13 9:48:54 PM: John Tan: It is like I M, there r all those experiences u undergone but I do not say they r diff phases


14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?
14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No
14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity
14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply
14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on
14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc
14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga
14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see
14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label
14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language
14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise
14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment
14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?
14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right
14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple
14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy
14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...
14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues
14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that
14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is
14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain
14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather
14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts

......................

"So what is one mind, what is no mind and what is original mind in this context? One mind is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace. No mind is just one mind except that there is evenness till the last trace is gone. Like what explains in the text. Uji...all is time therefore no time. When you go from dual to non dual or one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences... If u got the condition to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages to climb... that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom." - John Tan, 2020

(Note by Soh: the original mind spoken here does not mean some unborn metaphysical primordial mind such as the I AM, but the originally, already-is nature of mind -- empty of itself -- "originally there never was a mind", empty of all self/Self)

......................

Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Calls my attention the fact that you call the realization of I Am the same as One Mind.

I was a kid, didn't read or write yet, when suddenly I realized that "I Am the only one looking out from eyes, all others are seen from outside". But this insight was not accompanied by any notions of One MInd. I still felt as an entity looking out from the body. Nonetheless, this I Am (looking) had something genuine.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo ... for it was totally absent of concepts, thoughts.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu I AM and One Mind is different. This link should clarify our terminologies: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../differentiatin...

Rupert Spira in recent years had an even more mature insight (he said he realized it spontaneously while answering someone in a talk) into seeing how usually we think objects are seen and awareness is unseen but it's the complete opposite -- objects are never seen, only Awareness is ever seen, heard, touched, etc. This is mature All-Is-Mind insight venturing into No Mind. However I don't think anatta insight has arisen.
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awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo John Tan: "No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same. Like sky is not the flowing cloud"

The reflection and the mirror is not the same?
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Means in no-mind, there is the direct experience that that mirror (consciousness) is the substance of reflection (sights/sounds/thoughts/etc), the experience is one of complete non-duality as manifestation, yet the 'view' is still not anatta, still subtly dualistic -- reflection is still seen as not the same as the unchanging mirror. So when analysing and expressing that experience he will use that dualistic framework to express it. Therefore the peak experience is not congruent with the view (the 'conceptual' framework) one holds, there is a desync between view and experience.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Ah... is he saying that the view is a smaller realization than No MInd? ic
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu What I mean is that in between one mind and no mind the experience and realization gets refined but not yet the realization of anatta, that in seeing just the seen, 'seeing' (consciousness) is just the seen -- the colors, the manifestation, without a seer, no agent. Same goes for other senses.. 'awareness' is a label, empty of its own intrinsic existence that could exist on its own side.

When anatta is realized, then the experience of no-mind (as just manifestation) becomes in line or in sync with the anatta view. Then one can further expand that emptiness insight to mind/body, and nature of phenomena.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu View is the paradigm or framework in how consciousness is viewed in relation to phenomena, and the nature of consciousness and phenomena. One can have a completely nondual experience and yet the 'view' one holds is dualistic, therefore view and experience becomes incongruent/desynchronized, and the peak experience will not be stable and effortless.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Also as Thusness pointed out, the view aspect does not just pertain to subject/object duality but more importantly 'inherent existence'. One can overcome subject/object division but cling to 'inherent existence' of various kinds, so still subtly dualistic. Subject/object can be called a subset of the view of 'inherent existence' (pertaining to self, and to phenomena).
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo I c. I just misread thusness statement. I didn't read it as "view" being a stage. I thought he was describing One Mind. That is why I found it strange.
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo view is not a stage, it's more like a structure, paradigm or even technique. It's the ideological or philosophical framework that supports the practice.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Yes, view is not the stage but the paradigm.

The direct realization of the right view of anatta, dependent origination and emptiness is Thusness Stage 5 and 6, you can say the 'realization' is a new phase or stage. Ultimately the emptiness view is a viewless view, it is not concept to be clung on to just like anatta is not a concept to be held but the negation, penetration or seeing through of a wrongly held framework that allows us to have the direct taste of empty radiance free from any mental proliferations. However one should contemplate dependent origination and emptiness and refine the insight into one's empty radiance. It is an important raft.

As Thusness wrote elsewhere,

"In my previous message, I mentioned abt anatta and spontaneous perfection as returning to one's natural and authentic condition because I hope u can see it from another angle.

To some, in the seen, just the seen sounded like a perfect state of concentration through long period of training and practice. To me however, the taste of anatta is the birthright, primordial and natural condition of one's clarity.

Seeing is just seen, no seer;
Hearing is just sound, no hearer. It is the gateway to realize the mundane is precisely where one's natural radiance is fully expressed. Nothing hidden, nothing beyond and fully manifested.

What does freedom from reification entail? It is to get rid of all "beyonds", all "backgrounds", all constructs so that we can recognize "face to face" of what seen, heard, touch ...etc as one's empty clarity, not to bring us to an unreachable la la Land.

So wherever and whenever I see dependent arising and emptiness, I see one's empty clarity.
Some can through seeing emptiness realized directly one's empty clarity, just like case of the insight of anatta but some can't.

If this isn't obvious, then separate pointing is necessary.

Lastly the true practice is in ceaselessly meeting conditions and situations, without that, there is no genuine actualization."
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Its the present map. The map changes, though. At least it may. It is where the eagle points his beak - as D. Juan would say.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds' a mistaken view shaping our entire experience.

This is something so relevant. We are limited by our view!
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Wanna buy? I have a few shirts left.

WE ARE LIMITED BY OUR VIEWS
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo that's why right view is the 1st factor in the noble 8fold path; and why it is said that the 5 paramitas are blind in the absence of the 6th (wisdom). We can't experience freedom with a constricted (philosophical and existential) view.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Right. I just got the full meaning of the line:

"view, experience and realization"

This "route" is repeated in each stage.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo but it is dynamic. The view evolves so, experience and realization also evolve according to the present view. Something like that...
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo yes, like Soh said above:

> Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
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....

In early 2010, before I realised anatta:

(11:12 PM) Thusness: u r using stage 4 understanding to explain 6
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic
(11:13 PM) Thusness: i am not interested in views
only the insight that allows u to understand the right view
(11:14 PM) Thusness: that is in phase 4, 'non-dual' is the insight
in phase 5, that observer is gone
(11:15 PM) Thusness: there is not only no 'in' here or out 'there' not because it is non-dual, but because there is no such observer at all.
anatta
(11:15 PM) Thusness: that is the 'insight' that must arise
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) Thusness: just like what dharma dan said

(11:23 PM) Thusness: u do not deny subjective or object reality
(11:24 PM) Thusness: they are only provisional and conventional
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:25 PM) Thusness: but when the dualistic and inherent hears the term 'non-dual', they either visualize the 2 becoming one or 'you have become me'...
(11:25 PM) Thusness: because this is how a mind that is trapped would think despite the experience
(11:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:27 PM) Thusness: for what that is beyond the four extremes cannot be expressed adequately using language
so what that is important is the insights
(11:27 PM) Thusness: and see how one expresses these insights
(11:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:28 PM) Thusness: like joan tollifson
it is the direct experience
there is no view about it
(11:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness: means a practitioner will only experience hardness, softness, intentions, scenery, sound
no self
(11:30 PM) Thusness: action
directly
(11:31 PM) Thusness: but conventionally, u r still u, i am still me
(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no such thing as u r me
get it?
(11:32 PM) Thusness: or there is an awareness that is sound
or all is just this awareness
there is no such concept
(11:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:33 PM) Thusness: there is sound, sight, thoughts
(11:33 PM) Thusness: and what u call awareness are just that
(11:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) AEN: ya i talked about it in http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=13153&st=120#
(11:35 PM) Thusness: yeah but ur mind is thinking some awareness
or all are just this awareness
(11:35 PM) AEN: oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness: this is a dualistic way of understanding
though experience is non-dual
that is phase 4
(11:36 PM) AEN: sorry i mean post #126
oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating winter as spring and spring as autumn
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating fire as becoming ashes
(11:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness: get it?
although u said that sound is awareness, u r still treating it as that.
(11:37 PM) Thusness: as if winter becomes spring
or winter is spring
(11:38 PM) Thusness: get it?
(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness: it is different
for example dharma dan said there is just sensations, thoughts...the aggregates. whether super awareness or awareness. it is different from saying sensation is awareness, thoughts is awareness as if awareness has become thoughts http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/rigpa-and-aggregates.html
Labels: Stages of Enlightenment |

Eternal --

Forgive me for this, please. but I have permanently deleted your deletion. If by doing this I've totally screwed up and the post that said only "deleted" had some deeper meaning, then you can curse me and send me to moderator hell.

I was trying to help, though.

May you be, and stay, healthy.

Chris Marti
DhO Moderator

Thanks Chris for the deletion.

[4:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Tell me abt hire you understand in the past before engaging deeply into Buddhism.

[4:52 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What u understand

[4:53 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u say the tree exist, it is out there....how u feel and experience

[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Feel like a separate observer interacting with an observer independent object out there.. everything about the tree including its shapes and colours just exist out there and are intrinsic attributes of the object

[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Also experience things from a distance as a self before anatta

[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Yes

[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Even the sound we hear.

[4:56 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We don't actually examine and investigate deeply.

[4:57 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What happened in I M or I-I or just I and post that?

[4:59 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Theres a doubtless direct immediate taste of luminosity.. without concept or intermediary. Just a pure sense of presence

[5:00 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But for I AM just the thought realm and not as sound etc

[5:00 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: I m not talking about that

[5:01 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: I m talking about trees, separation, objects...as u said earlier...does it change anything

[5:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: At the I AM level up to one mind, all phenomena are like passing clouds floating by from within a vast ground of being.. especially at I AM it still feels dualistic. At one mind everything is indistinguishable but there is not the clarity of view and no mind not fully stabilized. Anatta realization dissolves the background observer

[5:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: At I AM and one mind i feel like the source out of which everything emerges

[5:05 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: At I M, do u feel things r still external?

[5:05 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes and the focus is on the internal sense of background beingness

[5:06 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Just recall ur experience even after I M. Don't mixed up phases of insights and gross through.

[5:07 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Do u or do u not feel things r still external?

[5:09 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is a sense that they are contained or emerging from and subsiding within a formless container of pure being.. so things are in a sense within me but not me, still dualistic

I wrote about how i am not running past objects, the scenery is passing within me

[5:10 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So from before I M and post I M, what has changed?

[5:11 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before I AM, i am a little person or ego residing inside the body relating to an object out there

After I AM, the body and mind and universe merely emerges and subsides from the source of pure beingness

[5:12 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Ok. Before that, what is reality to u?

[5:12 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And after that what do u mean by reality?

[5:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before that the identity self as well as objective world is reality

[5:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: After I AM, only the I AM is ultimately real. Everything else is just like projection of a movie on a movie screen

[5:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Before that reality is physical reality correct?

[5:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: After that I M is the Reality.

[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah.. physical reality plus the sense of being a person relating to physical reality.. the person is also seen to be part of that

[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah

[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now from before I M to I M, what has changed?

[5:17 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before I AM ignorance and karmic propensity projects ego and world as real... After I AM the intense luminosity is so real and overwhelming yet its nature is not understood, the mind with its ignorant mechanism of understanding reality then swaps the sense of identity and imputation onto the I AM. Then it turns into ultimate reality and background

[5:19 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Don't tell me on hindsight, tell me just before and after I M experience....don't tell me anything other thing...

[5:19 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U r not focusing. from things being very physical to I M spiritual, what has happened?

[5:20 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U r turning ur attention from external to internal right?

[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So what r the difference from before I M and After?

[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes focus on internal, just pure beingness

[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Until what happened?

[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before i am focus is as a observer focusing outwards but dualistic

[5:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Until the four aspects of i am and then nondual insights.. the aspect of impersonality is not focused solely on internal but leads to a sense of universality, diffused and being lived. But its still dual here and attention is still mainly focused on internal and background.

What really changed is after nondual and especially anatta

[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: No

[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What is the most important experience in I M?

[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What must happen in I M?

[5:25 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: There is not even an M, just I... complete stillness, just I correct?

[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Realization, certainty of being.. yes just stillness and doubtless sense of I/Existence

[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And what is the complete stillness just I?

[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Just I, just presence itself

[5:28 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This stillness absorbs excludes and includes everything into just I. What is that experience called?

[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I am everything?

[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That experience is non-dual.

[5:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And in that experience actually, there is no external nor internal, there is also no observer or observed.

[5:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Just complete stillness as I.

[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah even I AM is nondual

[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That is ur first phase of a non dual experience.

[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We say this is the pure thought experience in stillness

[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Thought realm

[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But at that moment we don't know that...we treated that as ultimate reality.

[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I find it weird at that time when u said it is non conceptual thought

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Yeah

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Lol

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now I dun want to mix up

[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But u really do not know what that encounter is...seems mystical

[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We thought it is damn special right

[5:37 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah lol

[5:38 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now what about non-dual? What leads to non-dual for u before anatta?

[5:41 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The first breakthrough was when i was dancing on the nightclub.. at that time i was a little drunk but because i was dancing and listening to the music, the attention was shifted from background to foreground.. then the bahiya sutta came up in my mind and that triggered a vivid nondual experience and i understood that the taste of existence is not just background i amness but in everything.. then that nondual experience lasted two days before background witnessing returned. When i went to army in september i was contemplating the border and edge between manifestation and awareness a lot and i became increasingly certain that awareness is nondual and the nondual experience is stabilizing but it is not anatta yet. I realised anatta in october

[5:43 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now from I M, is the not just a non-dual experience, u have en-counter clarity directly and without intermediary.

[5:44 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Therefore 明心 (apprehending Mind) or 验证本心 (experientially verifying the original Mind)

[5:45 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This is the most key insight but it requires a non-dual mode to 验证 (experiential verification)。

[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So it is what I call 顿悟 (sudden awakening) also.

[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now Reality in esoteric practice is referring to this reality.

[5:48 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When ur focus turned internal, u find that without this I, nothing is real, this is more real than real. Correct?

[5:50 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah


[5:50 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Only I AM is more real than real

[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u turned from I M to non-dual, u r dissolving the line or layer that divides, when u dissolve that line, u have sort of non-dual experience.

[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But that dissolving is not effortless, y?

[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes.. i saw in august that the taste of reality and existence is also found in everything.. although the dualistic view and inherent view still hasnt gone through refinement

[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah

[5:52 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What exactly is preventing u from have effortless non-dual, what exactly is causing the oscillation to and fro from background to foreground?

[5:53 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Don't talk about "inherent view"

[5:54 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The very strong tendency to view that I AM as eternal witness and ultimate reality is still there.. so without a breakthrough in view i returned to witnessing after 2 days until insights into nondual deepen

[5:56 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U don't have to know about "emptiness" or "inherent view", u can just contemplate on certain koans and stanzas. What must happen for effortlessness to happen?

[5:57 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Insight into anatta leads to effortlessness

[5:58 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What is anatta?

[5:58 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What exactly is seen through?

[5:59 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: In seeing just the seen.. i saw through the sense of a seer besides seeing or seeing besides seen.. the subject-action-object and background/foreground paradigm is seen through and therefore i realise and actualized awareness as pure manifestation

[6:01 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now there r two important points, seeing through self/Self and seeing through subject-action-object, any difference?

[6:02 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Subject/object if seen as undivided can still end up in one mind, seeing through self/Self dissolves the construct via realisation into mere luminous manifestation and aggregates

[6:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its a bit like chariot except i wasnt thinking of that analogy at that time

[6:04 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But anatta properly seen dissolves subject-action-object

[6:04 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: (referring to Chariot) This is much more deeper

[6:05 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This seeing through, what did u understand?

[6:07 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The emptiness of the construct of self/Self and awareness, as well as subject-action-object structure.. seeing through the emptiness of awareness as background and realising and actualising luminous taste as manifestation.. also at that time no agency and two stanza becoming clearer. One week later the same insight of anatta applied on mind body led to mind body drop

[6:09 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: 1. U see through constructs

2. U understand the relationship between constructs and experience

3. What else???

[6:09 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What did i tell u?

[6:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm not sure.. after that no mind and luminous taste becomes effortless mode rather than efforting

[6:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: The power of constructs, how it creates an experience so real and so convincing, how it blinds. U cannot just look at just one side of the coin.

[6:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah i had a better understanding of the power of constructs a year after that

[6:17 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: If u do not understand the power of constructs, u r only knowing half. It is the process of forming and dissolving these constructs in relation to consciousness creating all the one mind, no mind, anatta, non-dual experiences.

[6:18 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And u r always overcoming those, so know the power and know the way of overcoming and what do u call that?

[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Prajna?

[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Wisdom

[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: No

[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Karmic propensities?

[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Bond

[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ignorance

[6:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U can say all that...but what do u call these constructs in Buddhism?

[6:25 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Mental proliferation?

[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: 造作

[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Means what?

[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Mental proliferation means what?

[6:27 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It is the continuous activity of projecting those constructs into reality

[6:28 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: It is the continuous activity of projecting those constructs into experience...

[6:29 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now there r 2 one is releasing these constructs, the other is the post releasing...so what r the difference?

[6:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: The actual experience post releasing

[6:31 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And the question is emptiness and DO just seeing through these constructs? Or is there something more?

Sorry had to break down the post into multiple ones, had trouble saving them all in one post.

These are really good, Soh. Keep 'em coming. 

Oops I realised I missed out a huge chunk, edited --


[5:28 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This stillness absorbs excludes and includes everything into just I. What is that experience called?

[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I am everything?

[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That experience is non-dual.

[5:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And in that experience actually, there is no external nor internal, there is also no observer or observed.


missed out this:

[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah even I AM is nondual

[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That is ur first phase of a non dual experience.

[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We say this is the pure thought experience in stillness

[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Thought realm

[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But at that moment we don't know that...we treated that as ultimate reality.

[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I find it weird at that time when u said it is non conceptual thought

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Yeah

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Lol

[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now I dun want to mix up

[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But u really do not know what that encounter is...seems mystical

[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We thought it is damn special right

[5:37 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah lol

[5:38 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now what about non-dual? What leads to non-dual for u before anatta?

[5:41 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The first breakthrough was when i was dancing on the nightclub.. at that time i was a little drunk but because i was dancing and listening to the music, the attention was shifted from background to foreground.. then the bahiya sutta came up in my mind and that triggered a vivid nondual experience and i understood that the taste of existence is not just background i amness but in everything.. then that nondual experience lasted two days before background witnessing returned. When i went to army in september i was contemplating the border and edge between manifestation and awareness a lot and i became increasingly certain that awareness is nondual and the nondual experience is stabilizing but it is not anatta yet. I realised anatta in october

[5:43 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now from I M, is the not just a non-dual experience, u have en-counter clarity directly and without intermediary.

[5:44 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Therefore 明心 (apprehending Mind) or 验证本心 (experientially verifying the original Mind)

[5:45 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This is the most key insight but it requires a non-dual mode to 验证 (experiential verification)。

[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So it is what I call 顿悟 (sudden awakening) also.

[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now Reality in esoteric practice is referring to this reality.

[5:48 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When ur focus turned internal, u find that without this I, nothing is real, this is more real than real. Correct?

[5:50 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah

Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
Someone wrote:
Anatta
Question

Hi friends.

I have a question.

First, I have to quickly give some back ground.

Several years ago, I had a profound experience. It was as if a veil was removed and I suddenly saw that I didn't exist. There were no Self or free will inside that could control this organism that is the body. I spent years observing myself and others from this perspective. It was the first thing I thought of when I woke up in the morning and the last thing I thought of before falling to sleep, until I was empty.

Nobody around me saw the same thing or got mad if I talked about it. I started studying science to find support or evidence against my thoughts. It only confirmed that the world is fatalistic and way to complex to understand in each moment. This took me even further.

So, now my life has stopped and there is noone inside to care. Only some faint and weak emotional and mental reactions to whatever stimuli is put in front of my senses. No hopes, ambitions or goals. I don't pay my bills or take care of myself. I mean, why should "I"?

Eventualy, 3-4 years ago, I came over some "spiritual" litterature that mentioned the buddhist doctrine of anatta and samsaric consciousness.

What would a buddhist recommend to do in this situation? I mean, I will either end up dead or in prison soon if nothing happens. I'm okay with that. I don't look forward to physical pain, though.
Is there something worth doing? Is this the end of the "path"? To realise that I don't exist?
...

You are right. It has been very imbalanced and unhealthy, and thus it became exhausting and eventually a problem. But it has also been profound and beautiful experiences, despite the fear, doubt and lack of understanding for what happened. I am at a point where I need some guidence and practices on how to do this properly and the right way, or at least a better and healthier way. So, I think I am open to corrections and guidence. Thank you again.
——
Me/Soh replied:

Hi,

u/krodha directed me to this post... I think I will share my 2 cents.

There are different degrees of self/Self. I can elaborate a lot of them -- you can find these elaborations on my blog and (free) guide - https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg
But in this post I will just summarise them.

There are three main degrees or aspects of self/Self and no-self/Self experience, although each of them has different degrees of refinement in terms of insight + experience:

1. no-self as 'non-doership'. You no longer feel like a doer or controller, all thoughts and actions are just happening spontaneously on its own accord. You see that even your thoughts and emotions are not from a doer, you can't even know what your next moment of thought is, it just happens. When you are thirsty, the hand just grabs the drink on its own accord and the body just gulps down the drink.

A more refined level of non-doership is what I call 'impersonality'. Impersonality is not just an experience of non-doership. It is the dissolving of the construct of 'personal self' that led to a purging of ego effect to a state of clean, pure, not-mine sort of "perception shift", accompanied with a sense that everything and everyone is being expressions of the same aliveness/intelligence/consciousness. This can then be easily extrapolated into a sense of a 'universal source' (but this is merely an extrapolation and at a later phase is deconstructed) and one will also experience 'being lived' by this greater Life and Intelligence.

Impersonality will help dissolve the sense of self but it has the danger of making one attached to a metaphysical essence or to personify, reify and extrapolate a universal consciousness. Deeper insights into anatta and emptiness will dissolve this tendency to reify and extrapolate.

Also, I should also mention that there is another insight or realization -- and this is not the same as non-doership but rather the realization of one's luminous essence as Pure Presence and Clarity. Someone who has experienced non-doership does not necessarily realize that one's very Beingness, Presence-Awareness, that I AMness -- that remains even without engaging in concepts/thinking. It is when at a moment where all engagement in thoughts subside, in that gap, there is this sudden realization of doubtless Existence itself, that even without a thought, just I/Existence/Consciousness. And you realize that is the Luminous core of Existence itself. It is consciousness, pure beingness and bliss. This realization is often reified into the Atman but I consider this realization precious and important and a progression from mere non-doership, but on later realizations below will get refined, especially with realization of anatta. Realization of anatta in point 3) sees the nature of this Presence-Awareness, not by denying it but properly comprehending it - its non-inherent, empty and non-dual nature of that Presence-Awareness (also its nondual aspect does not imply realizing its empty nature, but I will not elaborate too much yet). But basically if you have this realization, you will not end up sounding so nihilistic because you have discovered a very positive luminous core of Existence. Also, after this realization, you feel like an infinite Ground of Being underlying all your thoughts and in fact the entire world. When you jog across the streets, no longer do you see yourself as a person relating to objects out there, rather, all objects and trees and people and scenery actually emerge and subside and 'pass through' from within that Ground of Being, much like the projections of a movie merely 'pass through' the screen. You no longer feel like someone that pass by things, rather your body and mind, the scenery and objects are merely 'projected from' and 'pass by' within unmoved Beingness.

However someone who realize non-doership may not yet realize that Presence-Awareness, so doing self-enquiry (asking Who/What am I?) can help one going into that direction.

2) no-self in terms of the penetrating and dissolving of the subject/object or perceiver/perceived dichotomy. This relates to the sense of being an internal subjective perceiver perceiving the world of objects in the senses. In other words, normal people feel deeply that they are relating to the world from behind their own eyes, as someone perceiving an 'outside world' of trees and people and objects and so on and the shapes and colors and characteristics of those trees/tables/objects are just inherent attributes of observer-independent objects 'out there', and they are merely observing them from a vantagepoint 'within' their body as an internal perceiver -- subject, and object. Perceiver and perceived. And this is so not only in relation to sights but even sounds and other sensory perceptions, for normal people hear sound as if the sound is somewhere 'out there' while they are located and hearing the sounds from somewhere 'in here', that is to say, inside their own body (exactly where that is, is uncertain, and upon examination some people may say it is the head, some people point to their heart, basically normal people don't examine things clearly and just take their sense of self and duality for granted). But this sense of self and sense of duality is a very real experience for most people, that they have unquestioningly taken it for granted as their reality.

It should be understood and noted that someone who has experienced the non-doership or even impersonality aspect of no-self in 1), may not experience non-duality in 2). In other words, one can still experience everything happening on its own accord, but still feel like a dissociated observer detached from things happening on their own. In a sense, it's almost like everything the body and mind is doing seems like another person, like you are playing a third person shooter game where you are sort of watching the whole character from a distance behind, except in a dissociated state you aren't even 'controlling' the character people refer to as 'you' -- rather, you are merely observing this person or body-mind called 'you' acting and thinking and behaving in its own way and you are just this aloof and detached observer of this character or body-mind doing its own thing. Some people have experienced this sort of dissociation coupled with a sense of non-doership.

Now, this means that the sense of doership dissolving does not mean that the subject and object dichotomy is dissolved. Therefore we can call that sense of subject-object duality, or the gap between perceiver and perceived, as a distinct layer of 'self' that can be penetrated in deeper insight.
Now, the dissolution of subject-object/perceiver-perceived dichotomy can happen as an experience, which is transient, short-lived peak experiences, or it can happen as a realization which leads to stabilization of non-dual experience.

As an experience, it is quite commonly experienced and described by people, often spontaneously when they just enjoy music, watch a sunset, enjoy a beautiful scenery and so on, where they suddenly become so engaged and engrossed in their sensory experience that they have totally forgotten their 'self' -- and in the act of forgetting the self they enter into what seems like a different state of consciousness, a very vivid and intensified one where they are no longer 'seeing' the sunset from a distance, they are the very sunset itself -- they may describe it as 'I have merged with the sun!' 'I have become the trees!' There is suddenly no longer this sense that 'I' am someone 'in here' separate from the 'sun over there', there is just brilliant and very alive bright orange light displaying itself to itself at no distance at all, a very vivid, brilliant and alive display of colors as clear vivid consciousness.

In describing such a peak experience, Michael Jackson wrote,

“Consciousness expresses itself through creation. This world we live in is the dance of the creator. Dancers come and go in the twinkling of an eye but the dance lives on. On many an occasion when I am dancing, I have felt touched by something sacred. In those moments, I felt my spirit soar and become one with everything that exists.

I become the stars and the moon. I become the lover and the beloved. I become the victor and the vanquished. I become the master and the slave. I become the singer and the song. I become the knower and the known. I keep on dancing then it is the eternal dance or creation. The creator and creation merge into one wholeness of joy. I keep on dancing...and dancing...and dancing. Until there is only...the dance.”

However, what is described here is still merely an experience. An experience of non-duality, but not the realisation. Such experiences come and go. Some people engage in dangerous sports to enter the zone and glimpse the bliss of non-duality, some people do it through dance, some people through certain drugs, some people do it through meditation.

But all these experiences come and go, until a paradigm shift takes place in consciousness where one suddenly realizes that the truth about reality or consciousness is that there never was a subject and object division, that consciousness was in truth never from the beginning ever divided into a perceiver and perceived, consciousness and its display, that they were never separate to begin with. After insights into non-duality, the tendency will no longer be to dissociate from experience but to fully open to experience in an undivided and gapless way -- experiencing everything without distance as vivid consciousness.

Such a realization can however be divided into two types:

a) substantialist/essentialist non-duality
b) non-substantialist/non-essentialist non-duality

The latter, I call the realization of anatta, proper.

But lets talk about a) substantialist/essentialist non-duality in summary:

Such a person may have realized that their consciousness was never divided from manifestations, that all manifestations are none other than consciousness itself. However the karmic (deep conditioning) tendencyto conceive of consciousness as an inherently existing, unchanging source and substratum of phenomena, remains — except consciousness is now seen to be undivided from its manifestation, so one subsumes everything to be modulations of Pure Consciousness. One sees that all phenomena are merely Consciousness displaying itself in various forms. Yet one does not equate the forms with consciousness -- the forms are like passing light shows displayed on an unchanging screen/mirror, while the projections and reflections pass through inseparably from the base of the mirror without subject/object division, the underlying basis of consciousness remains unchanged. Hinduism can get as far to this point.

3) No-Self in terms of what I call realization of Anatta

But then there is b), where one realizes that not only is it the case that all forms are merely modulations of consciousness, in actual fact 'Awareness' or 'Consciousness' is truly and only Everything -- in other words, there is no 'Awareness' or 'Consciousness' besides the very luminous manifestation of the aggregates, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, touched, cognized, smelled...
Anatta is not merely a freeing of personality sort of experience; rather, there is an insight into the complete lack of a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation. Non-duality is thoroughly seen to be always already so: here is effortlessness in the non-dual and one realizes that in seeing there is always just scenery (no seer or even seeing besides the colors) and in hearing, always just sounds (never a hearer or even a hearing besides the sounds). A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).

To illustrate further due to the importance of this seal, I would like to borrow a quote from the Bahiya Sutta (https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html)

‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’…
If a practitioner were to feel that he has gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’ or takes that ‘there is just mere sound’, then this experience is again distorted. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the main difference between a momentary peak experience (lasting minutes or at most an hour) of non-duality, and a permanent quantum shift of perception that makes that peak experience become a permanent mode of perception.
This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept.

In summary, after the realization of anatta of b), and even a), non-dual no longer becomes a passing peak experience that comes and goes, as the entire paradigm of consciousness, knot of perception, mental proliferation -- the continuous activity of projecting a 'self' or 'subject/object dichotomy' is severed at a more fundamental level as the delusional framework through which one perceives the world is undermined. What I can say is that for me personally, for the past 9+ years after realizing anatta, I have not experienced the slightest sense of subject/object duality or agency at all, not even the slightest trace. That is gone for good and is not merely a peak experience here.
What you described in your post is what I called 'non-doership'. And yes, that's a wonderful insight but there are still more wonderful insights down the road that is truly life changing in a very positive way, that I cannot highly recommend enough.

The world experienced after realization and maturation of anatta, after all sense of self/Self in all its facets are totally dissolved, is truly wonderful. Here is how I described it in my (free) guide:

"This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions, where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)"

It's late here and this post is getting way too long and I will address some of your issues regarding non-doership in a separate post tomorrow.
—-
The poster replied:

Oh my world..

I am lost for words right now. I'll try to reply properly when all this has sunk in a bit. You do actually understand. You describe other experiences I have had as well, or glimpses and even "suspicions". I very much look forward to read what you have to say about the issues on non-doership. You have no idea how grateful I am for this. Or.. perhaps you do, actually. I have read it twice now, and I will read it again. Wow.

I think I should read your guide as well. I just scrolled through the table of content and it looks very interesting.

Thank you so, so much!


----------

The next day, I wrote more:

More replies:

After describing the different facets of self/Self and no-self/Self, I'll dwell a little into the pitfalls and misunderstandings of non-doership and no-self.

Someone who goes through non-doership experiences spontaneity and a sense of freedom to a certain degree, yet it often comes with a great deal of confusion that only gets cleared up with deeper insights or pointers.

One possible pitfall is that one could end up with a confused understanding of no-self and non-action.

I wrote this in Facebook in reply to a friend Din Robinson to whom Thusness wrote his "7 stages of experience" (originally 6) in 2006:

Din: "as soon as you take any action or any need for training, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space, not that there's any wrong with that!"

My reply:

This is not true. This is as ridiculous as saying "as long as you take any action to keep fit, such as going to gym, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

or

"as long as you take any action to pass your exams, such as studying hard, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

or

"as long as you take any action to survive, such as eating and sleeping, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

or

"as long as you take any action to cure your disease, such as seeing the doctor, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

No-self/Anatta is not about denying thinking, action, carrying water and chopping wood... and this is the key difference between genuine anatta insight from dualistic conceptual understanding. The very notion that "action" and "intention" implies, or necessitates, an "actor", and therefore for non-action the intentions and actions must also cease, is precisely using dualistic thinking to understanding anatta...

Action never required a self (in fact there never was a self or a doer apart from action to begin with: only a delusion of one), and action does not need to perpetuate the myth of a self. The myth of a self is not exactly dependent on action or lack thereof. Sure, action that arises out of the dualistic sense of actor/act where there is an "I" trying to modify or achieve "that" is a form of action produced by ignorance. But not all actions necessarily arise out of an underlying sense of duality. If all actions arise out of a sense of duality, then after awakening one will just die as he cannot even feed himself.

When one is operating with a dualistic way of understanding, one thinks that action implies a self that is doing an act, and one thinks that non-action implies that the self ends with the action. But genuine insight into non-action is simply the realization that never was there a real actor behind action, so there is always in acting just that action - whole being is only the total exertion of action, and this is always already the case but not realized. That is true non-action - there is no subject (actor) performing an act (object).

Futhermore: The myth of a self is not dependent on practice and lack thereof. (Oh but, 'right practice' and 'contemplation' does a lot to deconstruct that myth!) The myth of a self is however dependent on ignorance, and only wisdom ends that ignorance, just like turning on the lights lead to the natural cessation of irrational fear and thinking of monster in the dark room by a child.

There is always only action without a doer. No doer does not deny action, it denies agency, and realization of such leads to the direct, immediate, experience of total exertion/total action where doer/deed is refined till none in one whole movement. There is nothing passive about non-action. Non-action is simply action without self/Self. All actions performed without sense of self/Self is in fact non-action. Without the subjective pole (actor), the objective pole in contrast to the subject (being acted upon) is also automatically negated. Yet clearly, the total exertion - pure action... goes on.

Dogen calls this practice-enlightenment. You do not practice For enlightenment (as some future goal separated from you). Your very practice of actualizing insight of anatta itself is practice-enlightenment. Sitting down is practice is actualization is Buddha-nature is enlightenment. Shitting too can be practice/actualization and that very act is Buddha-nature is enlightenment. Your very practice/actualization/act of just sitting, hearing the wind blowing, sight of scenery, walking on the street, chop wood carry water (without any delusion of self/Self) - that itself is practice-actualization-enlightenment, that is the total exertion where entire being is just entire sound, entire scenery, entire action.. This is non-dual practice and non-dual action.

2) A misunderstanding of no-self leads to a fatalistic and deterministic idea that negates or misunderstands causality and dependent origination. No-self in Buddhadharma is based on the understanding of dependent origination. But dependent origination should not be misunderstood as fatalism or with the idea that 'nothing can be done to accomplish things'.

It would be erroneous if a doctor realizes there is no self, therefore, tells his patients that all diseases are kind of fated or predetermined and so one should just passively surrender to the flow of things and just see what happens. Of course that is just silly. They should be dealt with, quickly and actively. But they are dealt with not via attempting to exert control or hard will via by the false notion of agency (sickness can't be cured merely by trying to will or control it out of existence - there are so many dependencies involved). They are dealt with via seeing its dependent origination and treating its dependent origination in a non-inherent way. Likewise the Buddha is like a great doctor that completely discerns our disease and the cure to our disease, and this is how through discerning dependent origination he taught the four noble truths: the truth of suffering, the cause of suffering, the end of suffering, and the path that ends suffering (which is the noble eightfold path).

Also, as John Tan/Thusness said many years ago:

“Nihilistic tendencies arise when the insight of anatta is skewed towards the no-doership aspect. The happening by itself must be correctly understood. It appears that things are accomplished by doing nothing but in actual case it is things get done due to ripening of action and conditions.

So the lack of self-nature does not imply nothing needs be done or nothing can be done. That is one extreme. At the other end of extreme is the self-nature of perfect control of what one wills, one gets. Both are seen to be false. Action + conditions leads to effect.”

3) Are you aware of the seven factors of awakening taught by the Buddha? They are mindfulness, investigation, energy, rapture, tranquility, stability of mind, and equanimity. This is how we should cultivate in our practice and also gauge where our practice is at. These are the factors to be cultivated, that leads to awakening and liberation. This means our practice should make us joyous, radiant, bright, aware, tranquil, calm, focused, with energy, have deeper insights, and so on. These positive qualities of mind naturally grow more and more as we practice. But if instead we become more and more like a zombie, more and more lethargic and demotivated, that means something is going wrong in our direction and we should investigate that and correct it. After maturing of anatta one feels great energy coursing through one's body and even one's complexions naturally radiates the joy and luminosity that is experienced.

I remember one of the first things John Tan/Thusness asked someone many years ago after that person described certain insight of no-self and non-doership, he asked, "has zealous energy arisen?" and commented, "Advisable to bring the insight of anatta into the active mode."

So it is good to know that there is the passive and active mode of no-self .

There is the passive way of non-doership where one just let things happen on its own, but this is often coupled with a sense of dissociation because one's level of insight has not reached into non-dual level yet. Even after anatta non-duality, it often takes some time to mature that insight and experience such that anatta enters into total action and total exertion. You remember what I said about Michael Jackson? He danced until all sense of self is forgotten into 'just the dance'. Notice that he wasn't sitting cross-legged in lotus posture, he was totally engaged. The people doing dangerous sports also often report entering the zone and forgetting the self into a state of complete unity with their action and environment because any missteps can mean death, and it is this heightened state of aliveness and ego-death in that moment of total engagement in activity that is also itself the allure of engaging in such activities. But alas, all these are but passing peak experiences since they have not realised anatta. It is not necessary to engage in extraordinary feats to achieve such states of peak experience, the realisation of anatta turns the ordinary and mundane activities of daily living into marvelous activities of buddha-nature and total exertion.

However all these people described above are not just experiencing a 'passive experience of non-doership' -- yet their sense of self is completely dissolved. What's the difference? They're not just 'passively watching things unfold on its own'. Far from merely watching things float by with passive disinterest from behind as some sort of dissociated watcher... They are totally focused, totally in the zone, totally engaged with their whole being/body-mind and their intentions in their action, till the gap between actor and action, doer and deed, observer and observed is refined till none, into that very activity itself. It is like the dissolution of subject/object not just in passively experiencing a sound without hearer or sight without seer, but also in that very full engagement of action without a separate actor. That is true non-action, which is not literally passive inactivity but non-dual action, action without the sense of self, or one's whole being is the action. It is total engagement in action without sense of self, not only without the sense of a doer, but also without the sense of being a passive watcher.

As I said earlier, once realization of anatta arises, non-duality becomes the natural state and is realised to be always already the case. Initially after insight one may still be prone to experiencing non-duality in a state of passivity -- just relaxing and letting the sensory experiences and events just arise in a non-dual state, experiencing no-self in a state of passivity like just enjoying the scenery to the point of completely forgetting the self in the vivid brilliance or luminosity of the scenery, the sounds, the sensations and aromas, etc -- this time it is effortless and natural, without entry or exit -- for one realizes that in seeing, seeing is just colors without seer, and hearing is just sounds without hearer.

And yet mature insight into anatta also allows us the path to completely and gaplessly engage in actions to the point of dissolving all sense of self in that activity. The last stage of the ten oxherding pictures of Zen is called 'entering the marketplace'. The experience of total action/non-action/non-dual action is basically sort of like being in the zone as mentioned above, but the importance is realizing and actualizing this as a natural state in all activities, and that is only possible after realising anatta. After realising anatta (and not just non-doership), it is very natural and effortless to completely engage in activity to the point of leaving no trace of self and fully actualizing your true nature as that very activity. This is heavily emphasized in Zen, but even basic Theravada teachings can get you there if understood well -- https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2012/10/total-exertion_20.html - I discussed a conversation I had with a Zen master and this might interest you.

This non-dual action eventually matures into total exertion, which is emphasized in certain teachings like Soto Zen and Zen Master Dogen. Total exertion is like when you are eating, the whole universe is eating. When you walk, the whole sky and mountains walks with you. At this point, in every mundane experience and activity, you experience the infinitude of the universe exerting as that activity.

Thusness: " Exertion is after the realization of seamless interdependence, the practitioner feels the universe giving its best to make this moment possible. Read the dogen of rolling the boat."

Dogen: "Birth is just like riding in a boat. You raise the sails, row with the oar, and steer. Although you row, the boat gives you a ride, and without the boat you couldn't ride. But you ride in the boat and your riding makes the boat what it is… When you ride in a boat, your body and mind and the environs together are the undivided activity of the boat. The entire earth and the entire sky are both the undivided activity of the boat."

"With going the boundless sky goes, with coming the entire earth comes. This is everyday mind."

Now, if you mature your insights to the point of true non-action and total exertion, you will not end up in a state of dissociation, passivity and lethargy. Instead, one lives life to its fullest, literally -- in all areas of life, fully alive, fully engaged and yet non-attached.

My impression from your post is that you are experiencing non-doership but with a sense of dissociation, along with some confusion. But if you progress in insights and practice in accordance with the AtR guide, or find a good Zen master (there are many good ones especially from the Soto Zen/Dogen's lineage) that can lead you to total exertion, your problems will be solved. You will come to experience whatever I said in this thread.

As John Tan/Thusness said before:

“When anatta matures, one is fully and completely integrated into whatever arises till there is no difference and no distinction.

When sound arises, fully and completely embraced with sound yet non-attached. Similarly, in life we must be fully engaged yet non-attached” - John Tan/Thusness

“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural to explore in arena and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I involve in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga.... I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan/Thusness, 2019
Labels: Anatta |

I read the link to the seven degrees. I can easily key into the I am stage. Also I remember feeling the second stage. Lately though maybe I have watched huge belief systems come and go so maybe stage three is a much bigger step but yet there is still action.

I keep going. One thing is that there is always a "quality" to enlightened people that I recognize them by. If stage three about nothingness is true, how would you recognize them as being enlightened other than recognizing them from a past life?

Edit. I am mostly talking about teachers

With the whole nothingness bit, I want to propose the following based on first hand observations. When self-generating nothingness is axhieved, one can literally hang out at a black hole event horizon. A theory:

The mind will not breach this event horizon if the nothingness that is surpassing it is self-generated.

Edit- first hand is right handed ness.. so it may not be universal

14/5/13 9:42:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But

Sorry?

(11:37 PM) Thusness: as if winter becomes spring

or winter is spring

You recognise from the depths of their insight by questioning them quite thoroughly. Even zen masters test their students through questioning.

https://books.google.com.sg/books?id=s1bVW5R42p4C&pg=PT320&lpg=PT320

Indeed

Because mind is empty of mind, there is ongoing dispersing into luminous multiplicity rather than consolidating into an undifferentiated oneness

To be exact, not even a dispersing as there is just ongoing "in the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard and so on"

i just posted yesterday on facebook:


In Buddhism, what is rejected is specifically subject/object or perceiver/perceived or actor/action dualism, as well as ontological dualities like existence and non-existence, but in rejecting these dualisms we do not the posit a monistic reality unlike Advaita.

Monistic vision of reality is seen as another form of subtle delusion.

“...According to Dogen, this “oceanic-body” does not contain the myriad forms, nor is it made up of myriad forms – it is the myriad forms themselves. The same instruction is provided at the beginning of Shobogenzo, Gabyo (pictured rice-cakes) where, he asserts that, “as all Buddhas are enlightenment” (sho, or honsho), so too, “all dharmas are enlightenment” which he says does not mean they are simply “one” nature or mind. “

“All Buddhas and all things cannot be reduced to a static entity or principle symbolized as one mind, one nature, or the like. This guards against views that devaluate the unique, irreplaceable individuality of a single dharma.
Hee-Jin Kim, Flowers of Emptiness, p.257”

- Dogen Soto Zen

"The medium One Taste is when this tarnish has dissolved:
the conviction of savoring and clinging to multiplicity
as being one taste. You have actualized the resplendent
indivisibility of perceptions and mind in which the
perceived is not held as being outside and mind is not held
as being inside.

The greater One Taste is when you realize multiplicity
as being of one taste and you experience one taste as being
multiplicity. Thus, everything subsides into the original
state of equality."

"You have perfected the strength of One Taste if whatever
you encounter is experienced as the expression of this
original state of equality. You have not perfected its
strength if one taste isn't experienced as multiplicity because
of retaining the bind of a remedy."

- Mahamudra, Clarifying the Natural State

hey, Eternal, friend me on FaceBook. Have i got face for you! Will give you tons of face!