Steph's Practice Log - Discussion
Im subscribing to this Log just because I had your Avatar Picture showing up for the last 2 days in my meditation 
Maybe there is something here for me or maybe for you too (I know, I know, Chris told me to fire away with those smileys).
So, ... you never experience Itching?
Maybe there is something here for me or maybe for you too (I know, I know, Chris told me to fire away with those smileys).So, ... you never experience Itching?
I'm glad y'all are feeling inspired and cheers to good practicing. 
Practice has a way of shoving your blind spots so closely in your face that you can't even see them. Despite the living meditation, just letting things happen stance above, there's still a habitual tendency to map. Conditioned upon many years of practicing in that way. It gets real confusing when trying to not focus on that aspect of practice so much, and being more open to things regardless of where I am in - yet that conditioning still pops up. There are many moments of it not being an issue in a sit, but I still notice it happening here and there, enough that it's noticeable and a bit frustrating. And then I watch the frustration and it dissipates and it's fine. And then maybe a few minutes later it pops up again momentarily, watch it dissipate, and so on.
This morning I sat for 90 minutes and could have sworn I was in Equanimity. The cool ease at the beginning that evolves into a sense of dispassion and all throughout, being quite on top of sensations - slow moving, easy to see start to finish. A sense of peace, that evolves into a little restlessness. Sometimes I get performance anxiety in Equanimity. Another conditioned thing based on not being good at willing fruitions to happen. Very hard to let go of. Then it seems I'm in a Dark Night'ish phase right in the middle of Equanimity. I know there is a sub-aspect phase of Equanimity that's Dark Night'ish. Maybe it was that. Maybe it wasn't. At this point there was a sense of giving up - not in that I wanted to get up off the cushion, but more like a sense of humility. Like, I have no idea, I give up, just let it flow and see what happens. Opening back up to a sense of peace.
Again here comes the habitual tendency to map, but cycles seem confusing lately and like they're not happening in any particular order. Maybe all the extra jhana is smoothing things out - but it's hard to definitively say which nana I'm in or not anymore. They're all kind of blending together and seeming really similar. As a contrast to this, one day last week I had a day where I wondered if there were wormholes between nanas because it seemed for sure like I was in one, only the next moment to immediately be in an entirely different one. Confusing as fuck. Who knows if this is something that happens as the natural course of things, but I wasn't resolving for it to happen. I know people sometimes resolve to call up different nanas at will, but I wasn't doing that. It just happened (like all things just happen). Anyway, maybe just say fuck it and keep going with the aspect of practice where I don't care where I'm at and quit with the mapping, just noticing when it happens and seeing it dissipate, being dispassionate towards mapping. Noting mapping, mapping. I don't use noting that much anymore, except in instances like this where something's really tough to crack or really gets in the way - then it helps make it seem more impersonal and like no big deal.
Practice has a way of shoving your blind spots so closely in your face that you can't even see them. Despite the living meditation, just letting things happen stance above, there's still a habitual tendency to map. Conditioned upon many years of practicing in that way. It gets real confusing when trying to not focus on that aspect of practice so much, and being more open to things regardless of where I am in - yet that conditioning still pops up. There are many moments of it not being an issue in a sit, but I still notice it happening here and there, enough that it's noticeable and a bit frustrating. And then I watch the frustration and it dissipates and it's fine. And then maybe a few minutes later it pops up again momentarily, watch it dissipate, and so on.
This morning I sat for 90 minutes and could have sworn I was in Equanimity. The cool ease at the beginning that evolves into a sense of dispassion and all throughout, being quite on top of sensations - slow moving, easy to see start to finish. A sense of peace, that evolves into a little restlessness. Sometimes I get performance anxiety in Equanimity. Another conditioned thing based on not being good at willing fruitions to happen. Very hard to let go of. Then it seems I'm in a Dark Night'ish phase right in the middle of Equanimity. I know there is a sub-aspect phase of Equanimity that's Dark Night'ish. Maybe it was that. Maybe it wasn't. At this point there was a sense of giving up - not in that I wanted to get up off the cushion, but more like a sense of humility. Like, I have no idea, I give up, just let it flow and see what happens. Opening back up to a sense of peace.
Again here comes the habitual tendency to map, but cycles seem confusing lately and like they're not happening in any particular order. Maybe all the extra jhana is smoothing things out - but it's hard to definitively say which nana I'm in or not anymore. They're all kind of blending together and seeming really similar. As a contrast to this, one day last week I had a day where I wondered if there were wormholes between nanas because it seemed for sure like I was in one, only the next moment to immediately be in an entirely different one. Confusing as fuck. Who knows if this is something that happens as the natural course of things, but I wasn't resolving for it to happen. I know people sometimes resolve to call up different nanas at will, but I wasn't doing that. It just happened (like all things just happen). Anyway, maybe just say fuck it and keep going with the aspect of practice where I don't care where I'm at and quit with the mapping, just noticing when it happens and seeing it dissipate, being dispassionate towards mapping. Noting mapping, mapping. I don't use noting that much anymore, except in instances like this where something's really tough to crack or really gets in the way - then it helps make it seem more impersonal and like no big deal.
Is there not the possibility that one can see the seer (or lack thereof) long before one hits the 4th? As in seeing the not-self but still having Anicca as the last thing to be seen? Or if not Anicca but only the Dukkha left. Why always the sense of Self as the last step left?
Is this the rule?
Is it not in Advaita that folks realise the Not-self and then need to STABILISE the realisation as they are just lost in total In this 4 Path model we walk more progressivly and need no rehabilitaion once we get to THAT point of whats done is done, no more to be done etc ...
Im being genuine in my questions. Thank you.
Is this the rule?
Is it not in Advaita that folks realise the Not-self and then need to STABILISE the realisation as they are just lost in total
In this 4 Path model we walk more progressivly and need no rehabilitaion once we get to THAT point of whats done is done, no more to be done etc ...Im being genuine in my questions. Thank you.
Yea, like how many times can I see the same thing? It's like trying to come to a conclusion about thoughts is still reifying them and there's attachment to cracking what they really mean. Intellectually, I don't think they really have some underlying meaning to them. I know intellectually they're conditioned upon feelings and memories and patterns like that, but haven't seen that closely enough in practice because I make a big deal of out of them. But again, as with the sensations of presence - giving them so much attention and making such a big deal of out of trying to crack their code is probably also another version of giving them a higher status than... say... a random sensation of an itch on the arm that just passes over without a fuss and doesn't make me freak out over trying to figure it out. People really mean it when they say every sensation in the known universe is subject to the 3 characteristics, eh? 
It's simultaneously frustrating and beautiful that that simple framework is what carries through and holds true the whole entire time. The tendency to complicate what's so simple and glaringly obvious.
I've been doing a hybrid of jhana and vipassana for a while, but having been staying more in the jhana lane lately. I'm going to keep with that and see what transpires. Investigation still naturally occurs lightly in jhana, as I've mentioned before. Once you've seen the 3C's to a certain level, they're hardwired and even if "you're" not trying to see them, they're still seen. I think I'm overshooting it by trying too hard to see them. I sometimes forget that alot of this is already on autopilot. In ultimate reality sense it is on autopilot.. but relative reality, with my practice, I've been practicing long enough and well enough that I don't think I have to force it so hard.
It's simultaneously frustrating and beautiful that that simple framework is what carries through and holds true the whole entire time. The tendency to complicate what's so simple and glaringly obvious.I've been doing a hybrid of jhana and vipassana for a while, but having been staying more in the jhana lane lately. I'm going to keep with that and see what transpires. Investigation still naturally occurs lightly in jhana, as I've mentioned before. Once you've seen the 3C's to a certain level, they're hardwired and even if "you're" not trying to see them, they're still seen. I think I'm overshooting it by trying too hard to see them. I sometimes forget that alot of this is already on autopilot. In ultimate reality sense it is on autopilot.. but relative reality, with my practice, I've been practicing long enough and well enough that I don't think I have to force it so hard.
In ultimate reality sense it is on autopilot.. but relative reality, ...
Wait, you mean there's one - and then the other?
Chris Marti:
In ultimate reality sense it is on autopilot.. but relative reality, ...
Wait, you mean there's one - and then the other?
LOL. Touche.
Did you listen to this podcast about Cosmic Joke? If not give it a go and if yes give it a go again
https://deconstructingyourself.com/dy-002-cosmic-joke-guest-kenneth-folk.html
https://deconstructingyourself.com/dy-002-cosmic-joke-guest-kenneth-folk.html
Nana within nana is the classic fractal experience. (Lots of good discussion in MCTB on this.)
The seemingly random movement of the mind is a good sign. I call this "the clean-up process". It seems like the mind knows where to go and what to do. You just need to follow along.
Around this time, it's good to ponder who are you going to trust: the mind or the person that is disoriented? I'd trust the mind.
The seemingly random movement of the mind is a good sign. I call this "the clean-up process". It seems like the mind knows where to go and what to do. You just need to follow along.
Around this time, it's good to ponder who are you going to trust: the mind or the person that is disoriented? I'd trust the mind.
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
The subtlety can sometimes be hard to parse because it really does feel so solid and STILL.
Steph, when I was about a month out (from you know what) I had dreams about this STILLNESS. In one I saw a pebble fall into a pond ravaged by a storm. In another, I was sitting in a room with an open window and the wind was blowing through. These were lucid dreams and they were obviously about mind's STILLNESS in the chaos. I've always assumed these dreams were a tell.
Yeah, who are the Thousanders? When I first read that I thought it meant people who have over a 1,000 posts on DhO. haha.
I'm technically a scholar, I guess, since I went to grad school and defended a thesis and all. But I'm not a Stephensen Scholar that I know of. I'm a scholar, now practitiioner of.... DESIGN THINKING & DESIGN RESEARCH. Fun stuff. Steph S., MFA if you want a resume name drop/humble brag.
I could have written my resume read more elegantly. Perhaps I should see if I can get in touch with Aaron Sorkin and have him write it again for me, master of the resume read as he is.
Steph S:
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
The subtlety can sometimes be hard to parse because it really does feel so solid and STILL.
Steph, when I was about a month out (from you know what) I had dreams about this STILLNESS. In one I saw a pebble fall into a pond ravaged by a storm. In another, I was sitting in a room with an open window and the wind was blowing through. These were lucid dreams and they were obviously about mind's STILLNESS in the chaos. I've always assumed these dreams were a tell.
Yeah, who are the Thousanders? When I first read that I thought it meant people who have over a 1,000 posts on DhO. haha.
I'm technically a scholar, I guess, since I went to grad school and defended a thesis and all. But I'm not a Stephensen Scholar that I know of. I'm a scholar, now practitiioner of.... DESIGN THINKING & DESIGN RESEARCH. Fun stuff.
No, it's people with a thousand posts on DhO in the last three days. A very exclusive club.
It's a concept from a Neal Stephenson novel called Anathem, set in a future monastery. Thy are entirely cloistered, except for one three day period every year when they open the gate to the outside world. There are four levels of monks, each isolated in its own region within: "oners" who maybe be lay people there for a year's internship and some great scholarship, or novice monks still in their ten-year novitiate, who all can go out the gate every year. Then their are the Tenners, who only have contact with the outide world every decade. There are Hundreders, who may go an entire lifetime without evr seeing the gate open again. And there are these sort of legendary, but no=nonsense real people way the fuck up the hill, Ten-thousanders, who basically just spend all their time ignoring history and figuring out how the cosmos words.
Steph S:
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
The subtlety can sometimes be hard to parse because it really does feel so solid and STILL.
Steph, when I was about a month out (from you know what) I had dreams about this STILLNESS. In one I saw a pebble fall into a pond ravaged by a storm. In another, I was sitting in a room with an open window and the wind was blowing through. These were lucid dreams and they were obviously about mind's STILLNESS in the chaos. I've always assumed these dreams were a tell.
Yeah, who are the Thousanders? When I first read that I thought it meant people who have over a 1,000 posts on DhO. haha.
I'm technically a scholar, I guess, since I went to grad school and defended a thesis and all. But I'm not a Stephensen Scholar that I know of. I'm a scholar, now practitiioner of.... DESIGN THINKING & DESIGN RESEARCH. Fun stuff. Steph S., MFA if you want a resume name drop/humble brag.
I could have written my resume read more elegantly. Perhaps I should see if I can get in touch with Aaron Sorkin and have him write it again for me, master of the resume read as he is.
You design people. Do you know Pat Wagner? She's more of a networker, but all the people who have those kind of job titles blur together for me. I can barely speak english for a paragraph a day. 300 words at most , my limit is already
m
Tim Farrington:
Steph S:
It was like seeing all these different alleys of my mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbieq_x7zuI. Really, that's phenomenologically what it felt like.
At a couple points I got some photorealistic flashes of images from nature. One was some low rounded sloping hills covered in lush green. Another was a bunch of bare trees, as in winter, with an orange and pink sunrise just coming up, with some fog. If this is what the recesses of mind are like, I think I'm doing alright, y'all. haha.
At a couple points I got some photorealistic flashes of images from nature. One was some low rounded sloping hills covered in lush green. Another was a bunch of bare trees, as in winter, with an orange and pink sunrise just coming up, with some fog. If this is what the recesses of mind are like, I think I'm doing alright, y'all. haha.
you had me at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbieq_x7zuI
Intervention time!
I will wear the sun
Ancient light through these woods
Woods that I walk through alone
I will take my rest
With all creatures who dwell
Under the smallest of green
I’ll remain no more
Than is required of me
Until the spirit is gone
I will long to see
All that waits to be known
And all that will never be known
Into the core of nature
No earthly mind can enter
But I will wear the sun
Bound to others
We’ve seen many things
I will train my feet
To go on with a joy
A joy I have yet to reach
I will let the sounds
Of these woods that I’ve known
Sink into blood and to bone
I’ll remain no more
Than is required of me
Until the spirit is gone
I will long to see
All that waits to be known
And all that will never be known
Into the core of nature
No earthly mind can enter
But I will wear the sun
Bound to others
We’ve seen many things
I will wear the sun
Ancient light through these woods
Woods that I walk through alone
I will long to see
All that waits to be known
And all that will never be known
All that will never be known
All that will never be known
All that will never be known
All that will never be known
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBUlwXe13uM
Cool track, Papa Che! 
So I've been continuing with my practice of lovingkindness with jhana. I want to work my way through all the brahma viharas (lovingkindness/metta, compassion/karuna, empathetic joy/mudita, and equanimity/upekkha). I think it connects deeply to why I practice and why I even became interested in Buddhism in the first place. I remember many years ago, before I started meditating or knew much about this stuff at all, that the seeming gap between me & the rest of the world was a common frustration. Even then, I could sense the subject/object or me over here/everything else over there split, without really knowing what it was. I remember wishing intensely that I could close that gap, wishing I could erase that barrier so I could feel more connected with the world, closer, especially with the people in the world... wanting to get rid of that just out of reach feeling. Right now I'm really interested in this as a practice to get a more profound understanding and more direct insights into the interdependence of all things. I read through the Magick & Brahma Viharas section (and other magick sections) in MCTB2 and the insights into interconnectedness and the profundity of cause/effect that it talks about are what really struck me.
Right now what's really calling out to me is emobdying sensations more fully, instead of just seemingly going through the mechanics and motions of practice. Leading with the heart, as it were. Lovingkindness & compassion are the ones I've worked with the most of out of the brahma viharas. They can get really intense. The feelings of joy and bliss get strong to the point where it's almost too much to handle. I find it is easy to embody the feelings more fully and really throw my all into it, much moreso than using the breath or the attentional qualities. There's a feeling into the genuine wish for people's wellbeing and that's what speaks to me more deeply, I suppose. It also helps to visualize the person I'm reciting the mantra about, and get a sense of their presence and qualities, and feel into that. And to be expected, sometimes sorrow/grief, anger/annoyance, or other stuff can come bubbling up when working with a practice like this, especially afterwards - there is a bit of a feeling of a comedown when the session is over. The afterglow is strong, though, so it's easier to meet these with equanimity... and so far with the lovingkindness practice, there's a feeling of welcoming and loving all sensations and willing to feel them fully, which is refreshing and interesting. Like I legit sat down on the couch after today's sit, and was throwing all kinds of love & gratitude towards some feelings of sorrow that were bubbling up. Fun stuff!
So I've been continuing with my practice of lovingkindness with jhana. I want to work my way through all the brahma viharas (lovingkindness/metta, compassion/karuna, empathetic joy/mudita, and equanimity/upekkha). I think it connects deeply to why I practice and why I even became interested in Buddhism in the first place. I remember many years ago, before I started meditating or knew much about this stuff at all, that the seeming gap between me & the rest of the world was a common frustration. Even then, I could sense the subject/object or me over here/everything else over there split, without really knowing what it was. I remember wishing intensely that I could close that gap, wishing I could erase that barrier so I could feel more connected with the world, closer, especially with the people in the world... wanting to get rid of that just out of reach feeling. Right now I'm really interested in this as a practice to get a more profound understanding and more direct insights into the interdependence of all things. I read through the Magick & Brahma Viharas section (and other magick sections) in MCTB2 and the insights into interconnectedness and the profundity of cause/effect that it talks about are what really struck me.
Right now what's really calling out to me is emobdying sensations more fully, instead of just seemingly going through the mechanics and motions of practice. Leading with the heart, as it were. Lovingkindness & compassion are the ones I've worked with the most of out of the brahma viharas. They can get really intense. The feelings of joy and bliss get strong to the point where it's almost too much to handle. I find it is easy to embody the feelings more fully and really throw my all into it, much moreso than using the breath or the attentional qualities. There's a feeling into the genuine wish for people's wellbeing and that's what speaks to me more deeply, I suppose. It also helps to visualize the person I'm reciting the mantra about, and get a sense of their presence and qualities, and feel into that. And to be expected, sometimes sorrow/grief, anger/annoyance, or other stuff can come bubbling up when working with a practice like this, especially afterwards - there is a bit of a feeling of a comedown when the session is over. The afterglow is strong, though, so it's easier to meet these with equanimity... and so far with the lovingkindness practice, there's a feeling of welcoming and loving all sensations and willing to feel them fully, which is refreshing and interesting. Like I legit sat down on the couch after today's sit, and was throwing all kinds of love & gratitude towards some feelings of sorrow that were bubbling up. Fun stuff!
Steph S:
Cool track, Papa Che!
So I've been continuing with my practice of lovingkindness with jhana. I want to work my way through all the brahma viharas (lovingkindness/metta, compassion/karuna, empathetic joy/mudita, and equanimity/upekkha). I think it connects deeply to why I practice and why I even became interested in Buddhism in the first place. I remember many years ago, before I started meditating or knew much about this stuff at all, that the seeming gap between me & the rest of the world was a common frustration. Even then, I could sense the subject/object or me over here/everything else over there split, without really knowing what it was. I remember wishing intensely that I could close that gap, wishing I could erase that barrier so I could feel more connected with the world, closer, especially with the people in the world... wanting to get rid of that just out of reach feeling. Right now I'm really interested in this as a practice to get a more profound understanding and more direct insights into the interdependence of all things. I read through the Magick & Brahma Viharas section (and other magick sections) in MCTB2 and the insights into interconnectedness and the profundity of cause/effect that it talks about are what really struck me.
Right now what's really calling out to me is emobdying sensations more fully, instead of just seemingly going through the mechanics and motions of practice. Leading with the heart, as it were. Lovingkindness & compassion are the ones I've worked with the most of out of the brahma viharas. They can get really intense. The feelings of joy and bliss get strong to the point where it's almost too much to handle. I find it is easy to embody the feelings more fully and really throw my all into it, much moreso than using the breath or the attentional qualities. There's a feeling into the genuine wish for people's wellbeing and that's what speaks to me more deeply, I suppose. It also helps to visualize the person I'm reciting the mantra about, and get a sense of their presence and qualities, and feel into that. And to be expected, sometimes sorrow/grief, anger/annoyance, or other stuff can come bubbling up when working with a practice like this, especially afterwards - there is a bit of a feeling of a comedown when the session is over. The afterglow is strong, though, so it's easier to meet these with equanimity... and so far with the lovingkindness practice, there's a feeling of welcoming and loving all sensations and willing to feel them fully, which is refreshing and interesting. Like I legit sat down on the couch after today's sit, and was throwing all kinds of love & gratitude towards some feelings of sorrow that were bubbling up. Fun stuff!
So I've been continuing with my practice of lovingkindness with jhana. I want to work my way through all the brahma viharas (lovingkindness/metta, compassion/karuna, empathetic joy/mudita, and equanimity/upekkha). I think it connects deeply to why I practice and why I even became interested in Buddhism in the first place. I remember many years ago, before I started meditating or knew much about this stuff at all, that the seeming gap between me & the rest of the world was a common frustration. Even then, I could sense the subject/object or me over here/everything else over there split, without really knowing what it was. I remember wishing intensely that I could close that gap, wishing I could erase that barrier so I could feel more connected with the world, closer, especially with the people in the world... wanting to get rid of that just out of reach feeling. Right now I'm really interested in this as a practice to get a more profound understanding and more direct insights into the interdependence of all things. I read through the Magick & Brahma Viharas section (and other magick sections) in MCTB2 and the insights into interconnectedness and the profundity of cause/effect that it talks about are what really struck me.
Right now what's really calling out to me is emobdying sensations more fully, instead of just seemingly going through the mechanics and motions of practice. Leading with the heart, as it were. Lovingkindness & compassion are the ones I've worked with the most of out of the brahma viharas. They can get really intense. The feelings of joy and bliss get strong to the point where it's almost too much to handle. I find it is easy to embody the feelings more fully and really throw my all into it, much moreso than using the breath or the attentional qualities. There's a feeling into the genuine wish for people's wellbeing and that's what speaks to me more deeply, I suppose. It also helps to visualize the person I'm reciting the mantra about, and get a sense of their presence and qualities, and feel into that. And to be expected, sometimes sorrow/grief, anger/annoyance, or other stuff can come bubbling up when working with a practice like this, especially afterwards - there is a bit of a feeling of a comedown when the session is over. The afterglow is strong, though, so it's easier to meet these with equanimity... and so far with the lovingkindness practice, there's a feeling of welcoming and loving all sensations and willing to feel them fully, which is refreshing and interesting. Like I legit sat down on the couch after today's sit, and was throwing all kinds of love & gratitude towards some feelings of sorrow that were bubbling up. Fun stuff!
I'm getting the feelings of joy and bliss myself just reading this. Shaktipat transmission by word, is the technical name in my old Siddha Yoga lineage. Get yourself a peacock feather and you could make a bundle on this shit. As your agent, i ask only the standard 15% of your gross, and will handle all events and details through my trained staff.
Right now what's really calling out to me is emobdying sensations more fully, instead of just seemingly going through the mechanics and motions of practice. Leading with the heart, as it were. Lovingkindness & compassion are the ones I've worked with the most of out of the brahma viharas. They can get really intense. The feelings of joy and bliss get strong to the point where it's almost too much to handle. I find it is easy to embody the feelings more fully and really throw my all into it, much moreso than using the breath or the attentional qualities. There's a feeling into the genuine wish for people's wellbeing and that's what speaks to me more deeply, I suppose. It also helps to visualize the person I'm reciting the mantra about, and get a sense of their presence and qualities, and feel into that.
And to be expected, sometimes sorrow/grief, anger/annoyance, or other stuff can come bubbling up when working with a practice like this, especially afterwards - there is a bit of a feeling of a comedown when the session is over.
"Later in the evening when you like awake in bed, with the echoes of the amplifiers ringing in your head,
you smoke the day's last cigarette, remembering what you said.
Turn the page . . ."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khH9ih2XJg
The afterglow is strong, though, so it's easier to meet these with equanimity... and so far with the lovingkindness practice, there's a feeling of welcoming and loving all sensations and willing to feel them fully, which is refreshing and interesting. Like I legit sat down on the couch after today's sit, and was throwing all kinds of love & gratitude towards some feelings of sorrow that were bubbling up. Fun stuff!
https://soundcloud.com/papa-dusko
love, tim
Steph S:
On the topic of the observer, here are some of the individual sensations I’ve perceived that can trick you into thinking there’s a permanent observer. These all go really quickly and so can seem like they are all one sensation (that of a permanent observer) if not perceived clearly:
Attentional width, which can be zoomed in narrowly, in the center, at the periphery, or more panoramic, etc. The limits of how wide the eyes can physically see - meaning there is a blind spot at each periphery and you can see a bit of the top of the nose, and the blind spot created by the limits of the eye sockets that people never really pay attention to - all of this combined can seems to enclose or box in the sense of seeing. If you don’t break this down into when each of those are actually perceived, it could seem the field of vision and physical seeing is permanent and always on, giving the incorrect impression of continuous seeing. This boxing in of the physical line of sight, plus the eyes being slightly recessed, can also give the impression that seeing is happening behind what is being seen if all these sensations are incorrectly perceived as one thing.
The feeling of internal looking that seems to scan the body to go looking for any sensation that just happened, the feeling of tension that goes with that scan, the phantom mental image that produces a visual imprint that represents the sensation that was just felt (ie, a very translucent, lightning quick, mental visual of the arm if a tactile sensation was felt in the arm), any feeling tones associated with all this.
Attentional width, which can be zoomed in narrowly, in the center, at the periphery, or more panoramic, etc. The limits of how wide the eyes can physically see - meaning there is a blind spot at each periphery and you can see a bit of the top of the nose, and the blind spot created by the limits of the eye sockets that people never really pay attention to - all of this combined can seems to enclose or box in the sense of seeing. If you don’t break this down into when each of those are actually perceived, it could seem the field of vision and physical seeing is permanent and always on, giving the incorrect impression of continuous seeing. This boxing in of the physical line of sight, plus the eyes being slightly recessed, can also give the impression that seeing is happening behind what is being seen if all these sensations are incorrectly perceived as one thing.
The feeling of internal looking that seems to scan the body to go looking for any sensation that just happened, the feeling of tension that goes with that scan, the phantom mental image that produces a visual imprint that represents the sensation that was just felt (ie, a very translucent, lightning quick, mental visual of the arm if a tactile sensation was felt in the arm), any feeling tones associated with all this.
Have you noticed with eyes open while not blinking a fast "blip" in the seeing? I'm seeing this all the time now when on cushion or just paying attention to it. It's like a Blip. As if one frame passed and arises even if staring at the very same object.
Im also turning more attention towards the internal "seeing". The most vivid one for me is always the "inside of the mouth" seeing the teeth, tongue, flesh and spit. As if I'm looking at it from the throat.
My internal visuals are usually very clear and always come after the noticing of sensation in that part.
if there is itch at the back of head there will be an image impression of it as if I was standing behind myself and looking at it.
What I'm now after is to pin point the space where that image is formed. I assume it's the same spot where the image of the outside objects we call "real" also form.
Ive had one experience where inner image (imagination) and image of what I stared at with the eyes merged in one another as if both were translucent.
This alone was enough for me to know that all I see "over there" is really always in the mind.
This is an insight and does not hold water during life-ing where my boy goes over there to chase our cat even though we told him that's not ok
It certainly is fun having meditation show new labyrinths of experience to be explored rather than just investigating objects.
Thanks for jumping in, Olivier!
You have lots of interesting questions, probably all of which I'm also trying to figure out the answers to. I get what you're saying about holding up the brain as the CPU, when really any idea we have of the brain is just that, an idea - conceptual because we can't perceive the brain. Same goes for ideas of location. Location is conceptualized based on a relationship between 2 or more objects. Basically the mind will fabricate the idea of a location based on triangulating several reference points. These reference points are subjective. The main reference point that people probably conceptualize is themselves - so we think of things being located in relationship to ourselves. For example, we conceptualize that a wall seems like it is "over there" in relation to me. We think, I am in the center of this room, so each of the walls are in front, behind, and to the sides of me. Then take that to the more micro level, where things get conceptualized as being located in the head. The body is then like a map that we perceive different reference points being located upon or within. It is all ideas. The trick is to see it in real time, and directly experience this conceptualizing and how the concept of location gets attached to it - which relationships are occuring to make it seem like reference points are getting triangulated to create what seems like a particular location. What are the reference points and how do they happen? I suppose is what we're all trying to figure out.
You have lots of interesting questions, probably all of which I'm also trying to figure out the answers to. I get what you're saying about holding up the brain as the CPU, when really any idea we have of the brain is just that, an idea - conceptual because we can't perceive the brain. Same goes for ideas of location. Location is conceptualized based on a relationship between 2 or more objects. Basically the mind will fabricate the idea of a location based on triangulating several reference points. These reference points are subjective. The main reference point that people probably conceptualize is themselves - so we think of things being located in relationship to ourselves. For example, we conceptualize that a wall seems like it is "over there" in relation to me. We think, I am in the center of this room, so each of the walls are in front, behind, and to the sides of me. Then take that to the more micro level, where things get conceptualized as being located in the head. The body is then like a map that we perceive different reference points being located upon or within. It is all ideas. The trick is to see it in real time, and directly experience this conceptualizing and how the concept of location gets attached to it - which relationships are occuring to make it seem like reference points are getting triangulated to create what seems like a particular location. What are the reference points and how do they happen? I suppose is what we're all trying to figure out.
Chris Marti:
In that sense, it seems virtually identical, IMO, except in name, to the idea of an invisible entity which is responsible for the creation of all that appears - which is a definition of god that some people give, creator of heaven and earth. How is this view compatible with seeing dependent origination ? How is naturalism compatible with sunyata ? I'm being serious here guys, and am genuinely curious to know what either of you thinks, Steph and Chris (and others who might have a clue ?).
In my experience, everything is dependently arising. These "external" gods, creators, controllers, and I/me/mines are all concepts which also dependently arise. If anything can be said to be responsible for creation (in the domain of subjective experience) it's the mind. I'm pretty sure that there's "stuff" out there that is causing mind to do its thing, but I have no direct contact with that stuff. It's all coming from the mind, via my six senses. So whatever that stuff is, I don't know.
Basically you realised that you are blind and then you said fuck it lemme sit on the back seat and enjoy the ride. Dont know who the fuck is driving nor where but thats just the way it is as there is nothing else there but this. As if I ever had a choice!
I can relate a bit to the stuff you mention as for example when I stare at an object in the room very soon that object starts to flicker and even chage colors and becomes dark ... makes one wonder if we are even seeing things "as they really are" in that room
All we have is that mind impression that came throught the sense door of seeing. As far as I know that white wall could be Black! But how would I know that for sure? Can't.Once I start seeing the sense of self being some sort of arising and passing image impressions (basically just an idea dependent on whatever preceeded it in form of another sensation then where do "I" go from there? In that realisation/insight is a great deal of curiosity and listening PAUSE (in a way we listen carefully for something we are not sure what it was) ... ... ...
The hour is late, I shall go to bed really ...
p.s. just a reminder to self; no matter what fancy insight/experience presents itself always start with the basics! Reality check! Body sensations! Don't go chasing waterfalls.
Tim Farrington:
i stumbled into this from shargrol recently and am using it as my new scriptural digest, fits on a business card, go-to nugget and pearl of great price thing. I believe it may actually apply at every moment on the path, and path. Shargrol may actually be, um, you know. the second coming of Someone or something. Nuff said. No more messy executions; we've learned a thing or two along the way, here.
Shargrol
"A gentler approach is to have the intention to stay on the breath, allow for both success and failure to happen, and when failure eventually happens (which of course it will, that's built into the practice, no big deal) --- then the important part of practice happens: noting what was so seductive to the mind. The important thing isn't to get a A+ in class for staying on the breath, it's to learn about how your own mind works. It's learning directly what seduces the mind, and once we know, we can't be very confused anymore. Over time, with the gentler approach, the mind will follow the intention and stay on the breath and it will be a much more sustainable. It won't require effort because your practice didn't require effort with the gentler approach. The mind can hold breathing in awareness without a big struggle".
"A gentler approach is to have the intention to stay on the breath, allow for both success and failure to happen, and when failure eventually happens (which of course it will, that's built into the practice, no big deal) --- then the important part of practice happens: noting what was so seductive to the mind. The important thing isn't to get a A+ in class for staying on the breath, it's to learn about how your own mind works. It's learning directly what seduces the mind, and once we know, we can't be very confused anymore. Over time, with the gentler approach, the mind will follow the intention and stay on the breath and it will be a much more sustainable. It won't require effort because your practice didn't require effort with the gentler approach. The mind can hold breathing in awareness without a big struggle".
That's some classic, good shargrol realness right there, I tell you what.
^^^ the font on that is really small and it won't let me edit it because I did quick reply and edit isn't working on it. 
Tim my friend
That suggestion above is Kenneth's I just linked to it not really knowing if Steph might use it. I'm not even sure I totally get what KF is pointing to. He shall keep all the credit and his teachers and those before them.
My guess is; "naive curiousity" where Mind is simply so expansive and open. It's a non-grasping moment open to ... what? ... Listening ... image impression ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... body sensations ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing eye sight space ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... hearing my boy speak with his toys ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing Jhana absorption ... knowing it's not it ... listening to the ships in distant harbor ... listening ...
This non-action seems to be about non-ownership hence free. There is no owning nor the owner in that moment.
I might be wrong of course.
my friend That suggestion above is Kenneth's
I just linked to it not really knowing if Steph might use it. I'm not even sure I totally get what KF is pointing to. He shall keep all the credit and his teachers and those before them. My guess is; "naive curiousity" where Mind is simply so expansive and open. It's a non-grasping moment open to ... what? ... Listening ... image impression ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... body sensations ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing eye sight space ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... hearing my boy speak with his toys ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing Jhana absorption ... knowing it's not it ... listening to the ships in distant harbor ... listening ...
This non-action seems to be about non-ownership hence free. There is no owning nor the owner in that moment.
I might be wrong of course.
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim my friend
That suggestion above is Kenneth's I just linked to it not really knowing if Steph might use it. I'm not even sure I totally get what KF is pointing to. He shall keep all the credit and his teachers and those before them.
My guess is; "naive curiousity" where Mind is simply so expansive and open. It's a non-grasping moment open to ... what? ... Listening ... image impression ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... body sensations ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing eye sight space ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... hearing my boy speak with his toys ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing Jhana absorption ... knowing it's not it ... listening to the ships in distant harbor ... listening ...
This non-action seems to be about non-ownership hence free. There is no owning nor the owner in that moment.
I might be wrong of course.
my friend That suggestion above is Kenneth's
I just linked to it not really knowing if Steph might use it. I'm not even sure I totally get what KF is pointing to. He shall keep all the credit and his teachers and those before them. My guess is; "naive curiousity" where Mind is simply so expansive and open. It's a non-grasping moment open to ... what? ... Listening ... image impression ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... body sensations ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing eye sight space ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... hearing my boy speak with his toys ... knowing it's not it ... listening ... noticing Jhana absorption ... knowing it's not it ... listening to the ships in distant harbor ... listening ...
This non-action seems to be about non-ownership hence free. There is no owning nor the owner in that moment.
I might be wrong of course.
beautiful mini-seminar on noting aloud, right there. Good thing you're such a dolt and a dumbo, people might start to think you're on of the best practice guides we're blessed with here, and not just for those whose hair is on fire and they've decided the best route through is a good sprint for the exit at paradoxical snail speed through the hottest flames.
Our brain is limited I guess or? It can only make sense out of so much per moment otherwise if all what springs in one moment would come into attention then we would just ... faint maybe Imagine playing only 10 different songs at once there would be no way to sort that mess out. Or?
Imagine playing only 10 different songs at once there would be no way to sort that mess out. Or?
Chris Marti:
Let me try a different angle on this -- is there anything that rises to the level of what you guys would call "attention" that is due to your intent? What is "your intent?" How does that arise?
What is "my intent"? ... ... its an urge, can be very subtle but still an urge ... its also an image, an idea.
How does THAT arise? ... ... ... its arising depends on the previous sensation ... it seems to color onto sensations, or latch onto each sensation in form of control, ownership , ... ... some kind of an "idea-urge" that is perpetuated through the sense of time ... its a sense of a grasping-urge-belief
... .. ... pass
I really feel like a virgin getting ready to be .... I will bring this to the cushion and see if i can get into that Intent-Attention some more ... thank you Papa Chris!
I've made this video today. Noting Aloud practice by using only one word , Awareness! Each time I'm aware of something (it's freestyle) I only note aloud Awareness
I will not say more about it and would love to hear what you or others who try, have to say about it
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek
I will not say more about it and would love to hear what you or others who try, have to say about it
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek
Papa Che Dusko:
I've made this video today. Noting Aloud practice by using only one word , Awareness! Each time I'm aware of something (it's freestyle) I only note aloud Awareness
I will not say more about it and would love to hear what you or others who try, have to say about it
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek
I will not say more about it and would love to hear what you or others who try, have to say about it
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek
Wow. Radical, radical practice. The contrast with the detailed noting aloud is potent, as you demonstrate. With one word, one discernment, you are going to end up in shamatha, i'd bet.
And this video looks very ethereal and abstract, like you're halfway to heaven or something, and all in between bardos, but bright.
Chris Marti:
WTF is awareness, anyway?
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
WTF is awareness, anyway?
Yeps
Im out of here! These are deep waters I have no clue about and might drown if swimming to hard! ... Im afloat now ... look! ... on my back ... just floating ... like a raft on a fast ocean of perceptions ... look! ... Im not even using my hands mom! ... look! ... look! ...
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
WTF is awareness, anyway?
Yeps
Im out of here! These are deep waters I have no clue about and might drown if swimming to hard! ... Im afloat now ... look! ... on my back ... just floating ... like a raft on a fast ocean of perceptions ... look! ... Im not even using my hands mom! ... look! ... look! ...
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
WTF is awareness, anyway?
Yeps
Im out of here! These are deep waters I have no clue about and might drown if swimming to hard! ... Im afloat now ... look! ... on my back ... just floating ... like a raft on a fast ocean of perceptions ... look! ... Im not even using my hands mom! ... look! ... look! ...Hell yes I did, but they almost lured me in man!
Im running for the door man ... maybe the window is closer!!! Ruuuuun!
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
WTF is awareness, anyway?
Yeps
Im out of here! These are deep waters I have no clue about and might drown if swimming to hard! ... Im afloat now ... look! ... on my back ... just floating ... like a raft on a fast ocean of perceptions ... look! ... Im not even using my hands mom! ... look! ... look! ...Hell yes I did, but they almost lured me in man!
Im running for the door man ... maybe the window is closer!!! Ruuuuun! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, all channels, anyone. Don't wait for me, man, i'm bit. Do you copy, Papa Che? I'm bit, goin under, nothing to see here folks. Swim, Papa Che. Swim like the wind. Get yur ass home . . . to that kid of yours . . . WTF, out.
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Chris Marti:
WTF is awareness, anyway?
Yeps
Im out of here! These are deep waters I have no clue about and might drown if swimming to hard! ... Im afloat now ... look! ... on my back ... just floating ... like a raft on a fast ocean of perceptions ... look! ... Im not even using my hands mom! ... look! ... look! ...Hell yes I did, but they almost lured me in man!
Im running for the door man ... maybe the window is closer!!! Ruuuuun! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, all channels, anyone. Don't wait for me, man, i'm bit. Do you copy, Papa Che? I'm bit, goin under, nothing to see here folks. Swim, Papa Che. Swim like the wind. Get yur ass home . . . to that kid of yours . . . WTF, out.
Steph, we're sorry, but Chris started this with his thunder KATZ. Context, context, context. The release of energy was extreme, and perhaps unfortunate.
Sorry for the collateral damage to the somber dignity of your beautiful practice log. So is Papa Che, I believe i can speak for him on this, though he is currently still running away from the bears, clutching that little fish.
That article does make sense. For some reason this reminded me of the 5th Jhana. Not sure why. That was back from my full on concentration days.
There is that quality in there where infinite space and some presence in the middle of it present themselves. One can't really see that invincible "presence in the center". There is just that sensed presence surrounded by infinite vastness.
Any way if I dare to assume I might be very much in the 3C's now which is not the place to ponder all this but I do appreciate you bringing forth some clarity on awareness and what is or isn't and all that "tracking attention" stuff is rather interesting.
Will give this more attention when more clarity is present.
Thank you!
There is that quality in there where infinite space and some presence in the middle of it present themselves. One can't really see that invincible "presence in the center". There is just that sensed presence surrounded by infinite vastness.
Any way if I dare to assume I might be very much in the 3C's now which is not the place to ponder all this
but I do appreciate you bringing forth some clarity on awareness and what is or isn't and all that "tracking attention" stuff is rather interesting. Will give this more attention when more clarity is present.
Thank you!
The coolest thing I remember from my dzogchen retreat is this weird instruction : can you achieve the union of movement and stillness ? Lightly trying to understand what that meant perceptually for a few days lead to some wild stuff.
Well, just a thing, feel free to discard
Well, just a thing, feel free to discard
Chris Marti:
Movement and stillness:
That was roughly two weeks out from "click."
cmarti [Apr 29 2010, 5:00 AM EDT]
A pebble tossed into the pond rests on the sandy bottom
The battle rages and the battlefield is still
The windows are open and the wind howls through a quiet room
There is observation and participation
There is action and stillness
Self and no one
Separated by everything and nothing
The same but different
The world
Test tomorrow
A pebble tossed into the pond rests on the sandy bottom
The battle rages and the battlefield is still
The windows are open and the wind howls through a quiet room
There is observation and participation
There is action and stillness
Self and no one
Separated by everything and nothing
The same but different
The world
Test tomorrow
That was roughly two weeks out from "click."
Wonderful.
Hi Steph,
Yes, what you said. I did read those parts of your log and it reminded me of that.
I'd love to talk about it, it's not everyday that one gets a chance.
What happened resembles what you are describing here. I started experimenting with this particularly with the visual field, sitting under a tree, trying to see all of everything at the same level, without specifying any center point, and just trying to unify movement and stillness, which started working, and giving me all kinds of insights like "strictly speaking, if everything is moving, then nothing is moving...", and then at some point this gave rise to a full-blown timeless experience, as you describe. This intensified radically, as I was on retreat and possibly right after second path, and gave rise to the most incredible opening of my life, which I described in my journal - I could link that here if you want. I guessed at the time, from having read DreamWalker's framework of awakening and recognizing things from other people's journals that it could be the A&P of third path. It changed my visual perception seemingly permanently, but it had such a "wow" factor to it that I can hardly think it wasn't some kind of A&P. Although, from a post I read by Daniel yesterday, it sounds like it could have been a PCE. Malcolm mentioned rigpa at some point... Well, I didn't get much rection from more experienced meditators, so I don't know, and it doesn't really matter.
But I was left with an appreciation, I would say fascination for a while, and much deeper understanding of the notion of eternity. Also I had rainbow vision for a while, which contributed to the entrancing nature of the thing.
I agree with your practical-reflexions, if you think about it, time cannot exist without timelessness. So I guess experiencing time is experiencing timelessness. Moving beyond notions of time and not-time would be the deeper, nagarjunian thing, is my guess.
When I remember this opening experience, I would say it was indeed between time and timeless, in a way, not of time....
You can imagine the reaction I got from my mom and brother when I explained this eternity business after the retreat, and that I could see glowing light everywhere Actually, they were very understanding and respectful.
I've played with that since then and gotten similar effects but on a much milder scale of intensity. The way I get to that usually is by getting into this kind of mahamudra attentional mode, where I try to see all the branches of the tree at once, let them show themselves by themselves, and just chill out to the max. I've been told that this stuff would start infusing daily life, and it kind of is. But my practice and life right now are really more like, nothing stands out in intensity that way, and it's all good. In retrospect, I had kind of made this into a big deal for myself, and even developed identification, and conceit, with theorized attainment. A wieght was lifted when I saw through that, actually on a later, shorter mahamudra (well, "mahamudra"...) retreat in the same retreat center - thank you Stirling Campbell. Hey, perhaps I should write on my log a bit, it's been a while !!!!
Have you ever had this kind of intense version of the phenomenon ? It was really something and I remember it very fondly. Now I'm more interested in really banal things, like, most recently, the fact that "I" can perceive many different things at the same time, which really makes it obvious that (1) i'm not doing the perceiving and (2) these things are not actually really different and (3) they are kind of all in the same place. But it seems totally, totally banal, and I like it.
Good stuff Chris ! You were such a rocket. I feel like, of ALL the journals i've read, the ones who seem to be fastest are "older" meditators (meaning : who've had kids, which I'm sure is in itself pretty serious spiritual practice). Thoughts ?
Yes, what you said. I did read those parts of your log and it reminded me of that.
I'd love to talk about it, it's not everyday that one gets a chance.
What happened resembles what you are describing here. I started experimenting with this particularly with the visual field, sitting under a tree, trying to see all of everything at the same level, without specifying any center point, and just trying to unify movement and stillness, which started working, and giving me all kinds of insights like "strictly speaking, if everything is moving, then nothing is moving...", and then at some point this gave rise to a full-blown timeless experience, as you describe. This intensified radically, as I was on retreat and possibly right after second path, and gave rise to the most incredible opening of my life, which I described in my journal - I could link that here if you want. I guessed at the time, from having read DreamWalker's framework of awakening and recognizing things from other people's journals that it could be the A&P of third path. It changed my visual perception seemingly permanently, but it had such a "wow" factor to it that I can hardly think it wasn't some kind of A&P. Although, from a post I read by Daniel yesterday, it sounds like it could have been a PCE. Malcolm mentioned rigpa at some point... Well, I didn't get much rection from more experienced meditators, so I don't know, and it doesn't really matter.
But I was left with an appreciation, I would say fascination for a while, and much deeper understanding of the notion of eternity. Also I had rainbow vision for a while, which contributed to the entrancing nature of the thing.
I agree with your practical-reflexions, if you think about it, time cannot exist without timelessness. So I guess experiencing time is experiencing timelessness. Moving beyond notions of time and not-time would be the deeper, nagarjunian thing, is my guess.
When I remember this opening experience, I would say it was indeed between time and timeless, in a way, not of time....
You can imagine the reaction I got from my mom and brother when I explained this eternity business after the retreat, and that I could see glowing light everywhere
Actually, they were very understanding and respectful.I've played with that since then and gotten similar effects but on a much milder scale of intensity. The way I get to that usually is by getting into this kind of mahamudra attentional mode, where I try to see all the branches of the tree at once, let them show themselves by themselves, and just chill out to the max. I've been told that this stuff would start infusing daily life, and it kind of is. But my practice and life right now are really more like, nothing stands out in intensity that way, and it's all good. In retrospect, I had kind of made this into a big deal for myself, and even developed identification, and conceit, with theorized attainment. A wieght was lifted when I saw through that, actually on a later, shorter mahamudra (well, "mahamudra"...) retreat in the same retreat center - thank you Stirling Campbell. Hey, perhaps I should write on my log a bit, it's been a while !!!!
Have you ever had this kind of intense version of the phenomenon ? It was really something and I remember it very fondly. Now I'm more interested in really banal things, like, most recently, the fact that "I" can perceive many different things at the same time, which really makes it obvious that (1) i'm not doing the perceiving and (2) these things are not actually really different and (3) they are kind of all in the same place. But it seems totally, totally banal, and I like it.
Good stuff Chris ! You were such a rocket. I feel like, of ALL the journals i've read, the ones who seem to be fastest are "older" meditators (meaning : who've had kids, which I'm sure is in itself pretty serious spiritual practice). Thoughts ?
Steph S:
The visual perception wow factor is a good one. Both in it's clarity, vibrancy, and immediacy. That is not to say the observer is gone. The pesky little observer feeling behind the eyes is still there. However, even with the observer operating, it's almost like you can still see through or penetrate it in a way, and are still able to have a very panoramic and big quality in the visual field specifically. I don't know if "see through" is specifically the right way to frame it, but it's like you can perceive the observer, while still being able to cut through it somehow.
The idea of paying attention to things seems a bit ludicrous, in that on some level you know there's nothing paying attention to things, but that knowing hasn't fully matured. Which is a bit mind-fucky and has tripped me up a bit. Because the observer is still operating, yet the way the observer is perceived hasn't quite caught up with the fact that there is still a knowing that there's nobody behind the curtain paying attention. This kind of manifests like, when I'm meditating or if I even thought "pay attention to X now" , it seems weird to think of myself as paying attention to an object. Or said another way, weird to conceive of attention as something that is applied to another thing. It doesn't quite add up anymore. But there's still the sensations of the observer and that subject/object duality happening, so again, not a fully matured insight on that front yet.
Hearing. It doesn't seem to happen at the ears anymore. It seems to be happening nowhere in particular. Again, not quite the accurate words to describe it - but it's as if sounds happen throughout the whole field of experience when hearing occurs.
The idea of paying attention to things seems a bit ludicrous, in that on some level you know there's nothing paying attention to things, but that knowing hasn't fully matured. Which is a bit mind-fucky and has tripped me up a bit. Because the observer is still operating, yet the way the observer is perceived hasn't quite caught up with the fact that there is still a knowing that there's nobody behind the curtain paying attention. This kind of manifests like, when I'm meditating or if I even thought "pay attention to X now" , it seems weird to think of myself as paying attention to an object. Or said another way, weird to conceive of attention as something that is applied to another thing. It doesn't quite add up anymore. But there's still the sensations of the observer and that subject/object duality happening, so again, not a fully matured insight on that front yet.
Hearing. It doesn't seem to happen at the ears anymore. It seems to be happening nowhere in particular. Again, not quite the accurate words to describe it - but it's as if sounds happen throughout the whole field of experience when hearing occurs.
But that lifted completely and I again started to understand how to, and enjoy, fast-penetrating objects with my vajra-attention. Analayo tells me he doesn't like it. Nor the sexual connotation, btw.
I was talking with someone who's "lost the centerpoint" recently (for me, that seems pretty far away and doesn't even sound very appealing, said like this, tbh), and he tells me he senses that there are almost two different axes, one with the cessation/perception shifts/centerpointgoneeventually (the loss of centerpoint being, to him, a consequence of a big new cessation during a sit), and the other one being openness and freshness of experience, more of the kind I was describing earlier. I thought that was itneresting : honestly I'm much more interested in the second kind than in the first. I've had that sense, that there were two different general directions of transformation, for a while... I don't know, does that speak to you ? Care to chime in chris ? It seems to me like you had the most textbook pragmatic path ever.
Olivier, all of these experiences really speak to the same thing but we perceive them at different times as being different and unique. They all should be explored and cherished as we pursue them. The more we see, the more integration occurs. That's part of the struggle because what we do to explore (method) works on some things at certain times and not on others. Some practices highlight some phenomena and de-emphasize others, and we may then struggle with finding the light switch in all these different dark spaces of experience.
And in re-reading what I just wrote it no doubt sounds undecipherable.
And in re-reading what I just wrote it no doubt sounds undecipherable.
Chris Marti:
Olivier, all of these experiences really speak to the same thing but we perceive them at different times as being different and unique. They all should be explored and cherished as we pursue them. The more we see, the more integration occurs. That's part of the struggle because what we do to explore (method) works on some things at certain times and not on others. Some practices highlight some phenomena and de-emphasize others, and we may then struggle with finding the light switch in all these different dark spaces of experience.
And in re-reading what I just wrote it no doubt sounds undecipherable.
And in re-reading what I just wrote it no doubt sounds undecipherable.
Not really indecipherable. I think you make sense. Keep watching without preferring This experience over That experience. All experience is just equally important to be cherished and investigated.
It all springs from the mind and vanishes in the mind. If you rush to conclusions you cling to this urge of rushing to conclusions, failing to see that urge. It all comes back to watchful patiance, acceptance and letting stuff flow.
I applied your words to my level of understanding and current practice of course. This too might change.
Just an idea;
as you do focus on "not trying to" or getting into Jhanas which you know so well, and going into Metta which you know so well, as well as Brahmaviharas.
What about if you do what you indeed can't do. Kenneth's "Listening to the ships in a distant harbour". Let's say you just listen to the ships in Singapore. This practice might reveal other aspects which might pass unnoticed in the other practices you are familiar with.
Just an idea which might not have anything to do with where you are now. Felt like sharing it anyway.
BTW, almost deleted this reply twice thinking it might not be for you but managed to press "Publish"
as you do focus on "not trying to" or getting into Jhanas which you know so well, and going into Metta which you know so well, as well as Brahmaviharas.
What about if you do what you indeed can't do. Kenneth's "Listening to the ships in a distant harbour". Let's say you just listen to the ships in Singapore. This practice might reveal other aspects which might pass unnoticed in the other practices you are familiar with.
Just an idea which might not have anything to do with where you are now. Felt like sharing it anyway.
BTW, almost deleted this reply twice thinking it might not be for you but managed to press "Publish"
Just an idea which might not have anything to do with where you are now. Felt like sharing it anyway.
BTW, almost deleted this reply twice thinking it might not be for you but managed to press "Publish"
BTW, almost deleted this reply twice thinking it might not be for you but managed to press "Publish"
jayzus fooking keeer-ist, Papa Che, stop thinking!
Don't make everyone who loves you stage an intervention.
Yah, yah, yah Tim
The lady is 3rd Pather and its really not my place to say anything here and yet I get these urges with ideas to post.
Oh, look a little bee entered through my window ... ... ...
The lady is 3rd Pather and its really not my place to say anything here and yet I get these urges with ideas to post.
Oh, look a little bee entered through my window ... ... ...
Papa Che Dusko:
Just an idea;
as you do focus on "not trying to" or getting into Jhanas which you know so well, and going into Metta which you know so well, as well as Brahmaviharas.
What about if you do what you indeed can't do. Kenneth's "Listening to the ships in a distant harbour". Let's say you just listen to the ships in Singapore. This practice might reveal other aspects which might pass unnoticed in the other practices you are familiar with.
Just an idea which might not have anything to do with where you are now. Felt like sharing it anyway.
BTW, almost deleted this reply twice thinking it might not be for you but managed to press "Publish"
as you do focus on "not trying to" or getting into Jhanas which you know so well, and going into Metta which you know so well, as well as Brahmaviharas.
What about if you do what you indeed can't do. Kenneth's "Listening to the ships in a distant harbour". Let's say you just listen to the ships in Singapore. This practice might reveal other aspects which might pass unnoticed in the other practices you are familiar with.
Just an idea which might not have anything to do with where you are now. Felt like sharing it anyway.
BTW, almost deleted this reply twice thinking it might not be for you but managed to press "Publish"
It's not that I'm not trying to get into jhana. I am getting into jhana and intending to, it's just that when I move to insight from jhana, it's like it kind of levels out and plataeus. And even jhana itself is getting kinda plataeued in a weird way - where it seems like I'm not getting super deep into it and even as I rise up the jhanas they're all seeming kind of samey-samey and leveled out in a way.
Regardless, this is interesting what you say here and I appreciate it. Can you tell me more about what you mean? What's the actual practice instructions for this? I haven't heard about Kenneth's listening to ships in a distant harbour before.
I mean I guess you could 3C the sensations of trying to look for something. Like the mental movements of looking for something. But, I mean you can't look in the center of your head can you? Like the mind's eye creates mental images, but it can't actually see into the center of your head, because it's fabricating images, not seeing the physical contents of the inside of your head. Like it can't see your brain, which is in the center of your head. How can a mental image see another thing? It's its own sensation, and sensations can't see each other.
This is so literal, Steph. Yes, this was an imaginary hole in the center of my head
Chris Marti:
For me, the chimera of an experiential hierarchy seemed to be in the middle of my head, at eye level. There appeared to be something in that place that I couldn't observe no matter what I did. Something going on in there that was unknown and unseen. It was like a black hole. The "flip" was to realize that I was looking for something that simply didn't exist.
Thats a nice share. Thanks Chris. I seem to be tracking this "space" now. I've found that place to be between the eyes and slightly above but inside the frontal brain. There was a perception of disorientaion connected to it.
Its seems we come back to the King Millinda Sutra here
go back to dismantling the chariot until all can be seen are parts of parts of parts flickeing , including those sub-sleves running around the kindergarden playing nice with everybody.
Papa Che Dusko:
Tim Farrington:
Steph S:
It was like seeing all these different alleys of my mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbieq_x7zuI. Really, that's phenomenologically what it felt like.
At a couple points I got some photorealistic flashes of images from nature. One was some low rounded sloping hills covered in lush green. Another was a bunch of bare trees, as in winter, with an orange and pink sunrise just coming up, with some fog. If this is what the recesses of mind are like, I think I'm doing alright, y'all. haha.
At a couple points I got some photorealistic flashes of images from nature. One was some low rounded sloping hills covered in lush green. Another was a bunch of bare trees, as in winter, with an orange and pink sunrise just coming up, with some fog. If this is what the recesses of mind are like, I think I'm doing alright, y'all. haha.
you had me at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbieq_x7zuI
Intervention time!
I will wear the sun
Ancient light through these woods
Woods that I walk through alone
I will take my rest
With all creatures who dwell
Under the smallest of green
I’ll remain no more
Than is required of me
Until the spirit is gone
I will long to see
All that waits to be known
And all that will never be known
Into the core of nature
No earthly mind can enter
But I will wear the sun
Bound to others
We’ve seen many things
I will train my feet
To go on with a joy
A joy I have yet to reach
I will let the sounds
Of these woods that I’ve known
Sink into blood and to bone
I’ll remain no more
Than is required of me
Until the spirit is gone
I will long to see
All that waits to be known
And all that will never be known
Into the core of nature
No earthly mind can enter
But I will wear the sun
Bound to others
We’ve seen many things
I will wear the sun
Ancient light through these woods
Woods that I walk through alone
I will long to see
All that waits to be known
And all that will never be known
All that will never be known
All that will never be known
All that will never be known
All that will never be known
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBUlwXe13uM
Papa che that Core of Nature hit me at the core of this nature from the first guitar notes.
here's another winner:
https://soundcloud.com/papa-dusko/sonic-puzzle-improvisation?in=papa-dusko/sets/che-guebuddha-sound
Chris Marti:
Today I looked more closely at the "voice of reason" thoughts and the "worry" thoughts. They're obviously conditioned upon each other. Nothing particularly interesting or new there as I've known that for a long time. They're their own unit of push-pull. But looking more closely at "voice of reason" thoughts, it's fun to crack through that and see those as more impersonal. And what happens as a result. I actually started crying a little during my sit, almost like mourning style tears, while looking more at this type of thought, seeing it as just another impersonal sensation that simply happens as a reaction. Maybe that seems like really basic & obvious stuff to see, but it was still interesting and a good insight for me. I still take some thoughts kind of seriously, and despite seeing so many other sensations as impersonal - some thoughts still have that sense of "presence" and "Steph-ness" to them. Chipping away at things, one sensation at a time, y'all.
I went through this kind of investigation ad infinitum. This is what led me to start asking people like Vincent Horn and Kenneth Folk and others what the hell they grokked that I wasn't. They didn't have any satisfactory answers. There is a reason for this, I think. My belief is that it's because the remaining assumptions about the self are so deeply ingrained in us. They're not something we can access with the mind that is capable of forming the questions. So this conversion, or "flip" of the perceptual view takes something very different from the ways we're used to using to see this stuff. This is why I think just doing jhana practices, at most, stopping the frantic seeking and chilling out, allowing our minds to be diverted and busy with other stuff, and actually just being, is a fruitful way to proceed at that point in the journey.
Chris, when you say you kept yourself busy do you mean you kept yourself absorbed in the work you did without ruminating and daydreaming or even applying effort to be mindful?
This looks very much similar to my experience of cessation last year. Happened off the cushion while playing with my little son. I was totally not thinking about the practice nor was I paying attention. Just playing with my boy, him sitting in his wooden cart and me dragging it, being the horsy and Puff! "What was that?!"
Seems like a similar if not same thing you described when it totally knocked "you" out. Or?
Btw, I have noticed a split during my noting aloud where the voice is noting on its own and there is this mind/awareness just being chilled out. There is stil hearing of the voice, awareness of it but no control of it or of what was noticed/noted. Then suddenly there is this urge or even fear like "I'm not sure if this voice and attention are really being mindful, I must pay better attention to check if indeed it's all accurate, matter of fact"
Must say that I notice fair amount of absorption mixed in with noting in my practice.
Question; when this split happens and noting voice and attention are doing its thing without control should I try and stay out of their way and let them do its thing even if I am not totally sure they are being totally matter of fact? Or should I just note that Urge to check if noting voice, object and attention are in sinc?