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Mind made body fabrice tom 4/13/20 10:52 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 4/21/20 7:34 AM
RE: Mind made body Steven E Barnes 4/22/20 8:47 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 4/25/20 7:34 AM
RE: Mind made body agnostic 4/24/20 2:43 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 4/25/20 7:31 AM
RE: Mind made body agnostic 4/25/20 12:54 PM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/25/20 1:09 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 4/26/20 7:42 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 4/26/20 7:46 AM
RE: Mind made body agnostic 4/26/20 8:54 AM
RE: Mind made body agnostic 4/26/20 10:56 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 4/26/20 11:48 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 4/27/20 3:44 AM
RE: Mind made body Nicky2 4/22/20 6:48 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 4/25/20 7:33 AM
RE: Mind made body agnostic 4/25/20 1:07 PM
RE: Mind made body hae1en 5/1/20 9:51 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/2/20 10:11 AM
RE: Mind made body Edward Prunesquallor 5/1/20 7:27 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/2/20 10:42 AM
RE: Mind made body agnostic 5/2/20 2:41 PM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/9/20 11:52 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/10/20 6:43 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/10/20 7:47 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/10/20 11:27 AM
RE: Mind made body hae1en 5/10/20 2:10 PM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/11/20 3:43 AM
RE: Mind made body Smiling Stone 5/11/20 4:35 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/11/20 7:59 AM
RE: Mind made body Sleeping Buddha Syndrome 5/2/20 2:22 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/3/20 7:24 AM
RE: Mind made body Noah D 5/2/20 5:56 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/3/20 8:32 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/3/20 7:45 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/3/20 8:43 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/3/20 9:36 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/3/20 10:15 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/3/20 10:44 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/3/20 11:15 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/3/20 11:25 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/3/20 11:55 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/3/20 2:49 PM
RE: Mind made body agnostic 5/3/20 5:10 PM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/3/20 11:34 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/4/20 2:44 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/4/20 2:51 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/4/20 7:56 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/7/20 8:35 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/7/20 9:57 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/7/20 5:45 PM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/7/20 5:53 PM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/8/20 8:10 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/8/20 9:28 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/8/20 10:42 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/8/20 1:01 PM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/9/20 2:08 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 7:49 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 8:59 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 9:05 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 9:08 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 9:16 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 9:24 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 9:30 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 9:48 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 10:03 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 10:16 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 10:37 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 10:50 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 11:00 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 11:14 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 11:35 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 11:54 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/10/20 9:51 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/10/20 11:05 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/10/20 11:17 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/10/20 11:29 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/11/20 5:06 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/11/20 9:00 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 10:45 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 11:04 AM
RE: Mind made body Chris Marti 5/9/20 11:08 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/11/20 4:46 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 10:22 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 9:12 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 10:21 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/9/20 10:37 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 10:47 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 10:54 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/7/20 5:49 PM
RE: Mind made body hae1en 5/7/20 3:17 PM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/8/20 4:10 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/8/20 4:22 AM
RE: Mind made body hae1en 5/8/20 5:29 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/8/20 7:52 AM
RE: Mind made body hae1en 5/11/20 4:38 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/11/20 4:44 AM
RE: Mind made body hae1en 5/11/20 4:46 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/4/20 12:50 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/6/20 7:03 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/6/20 9:43 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/6/20 9:49 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/6/20 10:29 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/6/20 10:55 AM
RE: Mind made body fabrice tom 5/6/20 11:01 AM
RE: Mind made body Tim Farrington 5/6/20 11:19 AM
RE: Mind made body Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/7/20 5:44 PM
Mind made body
Answer
4/13/20 10:52 AM
Hi all
I discovered quite recently that  in the
Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life , something is 
described as a mind made body, just after the Buddha describe Jhanas in
the sutta, he says :

"With his mind thus concentrated... he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made
body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of
the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath..."

then he describe supranormal powers:

"With his mind thus concentrated...he directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers... Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds...

It seems obvious that he is talking about LD or OBE and a mind made body seems to me very related to a dream body

The thing is that Buddha seems to perform those LD/OBE right from  jhanas  ( which has been describe just before , also he start paragraphs saying : "With his mind thus concentrated") 

For years i have been training on LD with a very high practice ( mixing wake back to bed and meditation every night ) i know how to get inside a dream without loosing consciousness ( wake induce lucid dream technique ) in many different ways, i also train in a meditative state or jhanique state with hypnagogia which is a great way to enhance  lucid dreaming practice  but so far never succeed to do it right from jhanas and i wonder if there could be a way to train for LD/OBE right from the jhana state ? any ideas?

TY
Fabrice

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/21/20 7:34 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
No ideas?
i guess no much lucid dreamers around here...  emoticon

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/22/20 6:48 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Its unlikely the Buddha was interested in what you have posted about. The Buddha used psychic powers for practical purposes; such as to teach others. I imagine the mind-made body is a feat of psychic power, where the Buddha creates a mental image of his own body, including robes, and then projects that image to another person. For example, the Buddha is physically taking alms food in Kapilavastu but creates a mind-made body so he can teach a person in Savatthi, as desribed here: 
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.055.than.html

You might consider to read the following links:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/the-mind-made-body-manomayakaya/4569
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=191#p1296
http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2014/11/manomaya-background-to-mind-made-bodies.html
http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2014/12/manomaya-kaya-pali-texts.html








 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/25/20 7:33 AM as a reply to Nicky2.
On the contrary, In this particular sutta called: Fruits of the Contemplative Life, it is very likely that the Buddha was interested in psychic powers, mind made body is a perfect match for dream body and one must have found himself standing beside his bed to realize that the body created is" complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties", plus the so called psychic powers described are also a perfect match for what one can do in a lucid dream but of course one must be experienced in it to understand it.

There is always that underlying idea that Buddha was some kind of god or at least had some "goddish qualities" but Buddha was just a man  whatever he achevied it is achevied by a man, almost a simple man, many time the "spiritual aspect" or "sacred aspect " prevent us from seeing clairly what is in front of us...

thanks for the links anyway ;-)

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/22/20 8:47 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Hello Tom,

I'm not an LD pro, but I've had some minor success in the past.  I agree that Mind Made Body is clearly the subtle body of LD.

I've never been able to do the "wake up in a dream" trick. What I've done is essentially get to a threshold LD state through light jhanas, by focusing on breath sensations in the whole body (what TMI calls Whole Body Jhana). In this state, sensations inside the body have vanished, and the body seems paralyzed; this is similar to sleep paralysis, but much easier to break out of. I assume this is the 4th jhana, but I've never been too certain beyond the 2nd jhana.

From there, it seems possible to enter an LD state, but I've never learned to control this. Sometimes, while lying in bed, I decided to get up. I had the sensations that my body was sitting up. Then I realized that my real body was still lying in bed, and I popped out of the LD state, back to the threshold. I've had uncontrolled LD and on rare occasions, fully controlled dreams where I'm usually just flying around, going through walls and stuff.

That's about all I can say. Oddly enough, I was able to get to the threshold state easier, before I began real meditation using books like MTCB and TMI. Maybe I have learned to avoid dullness too well...

RE: Mind made body
lucid dream
Answer
4/25/20 7:34 AM as a reply to Steven E Barnes.
Hi Steven
interesting post.
I assume this is the 4th jhana, but I've never been too certain beyond the 2nd jhana.

you probably need more training , jhanas 1 to 4 have quite different
feeling, mentally and physically, in J2 focusing on pleasure letting
pleasure pervade your entire body  is what works well to " load" the
jhana then with enough training J3 should come naturally, mind gets
quieter and physical sensations become even more uniform in the all
body, if  you are familiar with SN Goenka meditation, this is  usually
where it becomes very easy to let this sort of "energy feeling"  going
head to feet, feet to head like a flow (free flow they call it ).
If  you just go with the free flow, J4 should come naturally too, you can't
mistake J4, physical sensations become even stronger, in J4 i can't go
head to feet or feet to head anymore become the flow is so intense that
it pervades every little part of my body and the mind become ( almost )
absolutely quite, this is J4 as far as i can see of course.
Sometimes,
while lying in bed, I decided to get up. I had the sensations that my
body was sitting up. Then I realized that my real body was still lying
in bed, and I popped out of the LD state, back to the threshold

Ok if you are not familiar with wild techniques , it is difficult to explain, a quick reminding anyway:

You have to practice wild techniques ( entering a LD without loosing consciousness) after a WBTB ( waking up after 4 to 6hrs of sleep and going back to bed) then you let yourself drift into sleeping  and try to wake up as quick as possible , in fact you have to use micro sleep, which means that you wake up shortly and fall asleep again , at each waking up you can try to separate using particular techniques like the one describe in M.Raduga book ( probably the easiest for newbies) , i can't explain more too long and irrelevant here but  to mix up jhana with a WBTB make it works too, what you have to do  is ( if possible)  to reach a good J4, then go back to bed gently,  reload J4 as much as you can ( easy and fast if you've meditated beside your bed) then let you slowly drift into sleeping, my experience show me that a few things happens:

first you can reach a sort of "white sleep" which means that your body fall asleep but you are still conscious, you  can even hear you breath like a sleeper, you can also have an erection because you enter REM ( funny and unusual specially that  your mind is absolutely quite :-) then, specially if you are highly train, you can feel that your dream body or mind made body ( i like that name :-) is a little bit floating ( impossible to explain without experiencing it) then you just have to stand up like if you would get out of the bed and you find yourself beside your bed in your dream body.
This is what i do more and more,  the difficulty is to have a good meditation at my wbtb, it usually takes me 1h to get a good J4 but it took me some time to get use to wbtb at 3/4 AM on a everyday base and sometime my level of energy is not good enough to reach a good J4 at such an early hour.

maybe i have lerned to avoid dullness too well


Dullness is not good but just before dullness there is the liminal state of hypnagogia ( visions like faces , sounds, landscapes, etc)  and this is gold for a trained lucid dreamer, i sometimes spend time in hypnagogia specially in J4 where i can't fall asleep but can still let my mind wander in  the liminal state...

Hope this will help  ;-)


RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/24/20 2:43 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Hi Fabrice,

This is really interesting. When I get tired meditating at night I let myself drift on the boundary between wake & sleep for a bit and watch the random thoughts and images which come up. Or rather I move a bit towards sleep, something flashes in the mind and jolts me back awake and I'm like what was that. Sort of gives me a window into what's going on in the subconscious. Often it seems to be nonsense but sometimes I can find the meaning. Once I fell into a bright white space like heaven. Or I like to lie on my back when not tired and let myself fall asleep slowly. Or same think if I wake up and have time to doze a bit. Sometimes I've been in a bit of a lucid dream and been able to more around a bit or fly. Seems kind of fun, although sometimes my body is paralyzed and vibrating harshly and I can't break out.

Anway, I always wondered whether it was worth pursuing further with LD techniques etc. I'm kind of curious, what's your motivation? How has the practice developed for you?

Thanks
agnostic

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/25/20 7:31 AM as a reply to agnostic.
Anway, I always wondered whether it was
worth pursuing further with LD techniques etc. I'm kind of curious,
what's your motivation? How has the practice developed for you?

Hi Agnostic

LD techniques , i mean real techniques which are all wild techniques are very demanding , so if your motivation is not strong, it cannot work.
If your are meditating at night, let's say after 3 sleep cycles then it worth give it a try because wbtb is a very important step and many people don't want to wake up in the midle of the night.
My motivation ? well, for personal reasons was huge, well above average i would say, then i started to wbtb and meditate every night, now i don't need anymore motivation i just do it naturally, that is why after developping all sort of wild techniques i now focus on mix techniques  between deep meditation ( jhana state ) and LD.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/25/20 12:54 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
Anway, I always wondered whether it was
worth pursuing further with LD techniques etc. I'm kind of curious,
what's your motivation? How has the practice developed for you?

Hi Agnostic

LD techniques , i mean real techniques which are all wild techniques are very demanding , so if your motivation is not strong, it cannot work.
If your are meditating at night, let's say after 3 sleep cycles then it worth give it a try because wbtb is a very important step and many people don't want to wake up in the midle of the night.
My motivation ? well, for personal reasons was huge, well above average i would say, then i started to wbtb and meditate every night, now i don't need anymore motivation i just do it naturally, that is why after developping all sort of wild techniques i now focus on mix techniques  between deep meditation ( jhana state ) and LD.

Is it just curiosity, fun, pleasure, excitement? Or do you also get self-discovery and insight? How much of it is passively discovering what's already there vs intentionally controlling  or creating experiences? Do you ever use LD as a way of preparing your mind to manifest more efficiently in the waking world?

I guess my particular line of interest is that it could be helpful as a way of identifying and working with certain subconscious issues, to bring them to a more satisfactory resolution in a harmless way. Possibly also as an aid to manifesting.

What's the optimatal balance between LD and jhana for you?

From an orthodox Buddhist standpoint I imagine people might say LD is just a distraction and a new source of clinging/suffering. But maybe there’s a more tantric angle, working skillfully with what you’ve got and intentionally manifesting for the “benefit of sentient beings”. Do you have a view on this?

Sorry so many questions, but I am genuinely interested in what you have to say. I haven’t come across anyone else on here with your experience and I’m sure we can learn a lot from you! Thanks!

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/25/20 1:07 PM as a reply to Nicky2.
Hi Nicky2!

This idea of drawing the reed from the sheath, it reminds me of the Vedic concept of koshas (covering layers of the Atman) in the Upanishads. Is that where it comes from?

Thanks
agnostic

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/25/20 1:09 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:

first you can reach a sort of "white sleep" which means that your body fall asleep but you are still conscious, you  can even hear you breath like a sleeper

This happens to me on a regular basis. It started to happen spontaneously.



then, specially if you are highly train, you can feel that your dream body or mind made body ( i like that name :-) is a little bit floating ( impossible to explain without experiencing it) then you just have to stand up like if you would get out of the bed and you find yourself beside your bed in your dream body.

This has happened but it's rare for me.

Great to find someone whose experiences I can learn from to develop this! 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/26/20 7:42 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Is it just curiosity, fun, pleasure, excitement? Or do you also get self-discovery and insight? How much of it is passively discovering what's already there vs intentionally controlling  or creating experiences? Do you ever use LD as a way of preparing your mind to manifest more efficiently in the waking world?

I guess my particular line of interest is that it could be helpful as a way of identifying and working with certain subconscious issues, to bring them to a more satisfactory resolution in a harmless way. Possibly also as an aid to manifesting.

What's the optimatal balance between LD and jhana for you?

That's a lot of question that i can't answer, to make it simple, i practice LD so ardently for strong personal reasons but curiosity, fun,etc, are definitely part of it. I don't use LD for subconscious issues either , i find meditation much more valuable to do so.
From an orthodox Buddhist standpoint I imagine people might say LD is just a distraction and a new source of clinging/suffering. But maybe there’s a more tantric angle, working skillfully with what you’ve got and intentionally manifesting for the “benefit of sentient beings”. Do you have a view on this?
Orthodox whatever standpoint is definitely not the way i see think but  if some people enjoy walking the same old line, let them do so, why loosing time about arguing that there is other ways, waste of time...
Tantric angle is more interesting and actually, Tibetans monks use dream yoga, which is basically LD to train for the after death, they believe that when you die you enter different realms ( bardos) without much consciousness, like a dreamer in a way and training to lucidity with LD is the best way to realise what 's happening to you , it will give you a great advantage at your death...

What i can say i that entering a LD is like entering another world with other rules, it is very enjoyable and there is lot's of simile with "our world" in the way that most of the time ( if not all ) we are dreaming our life, lost in our thoughts, bla, bla here , bla, bla there, we are dreamer, awakening is just a vague idea, almost a myth and becoming lucid at night in a dream helps you to open your eyes in this world too, plus it is really fun ;-)

This idea of drawing the reed from the sheath, it reminds me of the Vedic concept of koshas (covering layers of the Atman) in the Upanishads. Is that where it comes from?

i have no idea

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/26/20 7:46 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
Is it just curiosity, fun, pleasure, excitement? Or do you also get self-discovery and insight? How much of it is passively discovering what's already there vs intentionally controlling  or creating experiences? Do you ever use LD as a way of preparing your mind to manifest more efficiently in the waking world?

I guess my particular line of interest is that it could be helpful as a way of identifying and working with certain subconscious issues, to bring them to a more satisfactory resolution in a harmless way. Possibly also as an aid to manifesting.

What's the optimatal balance between LD and jhana for you?

That's a lot of question that i can't answer, to make it simple, i practice LD so ardently for strong personal reasons but curiosity, fun,etc, are definitely part of it. I don't use LD for subconscious issues either , i find meditation much more valuable to do so.
From an orthodox Buddhist standpoint I imagine people might say LD is just a distraction and a new source of clinging/suffering. But maybe there’s a more tantric angle, working skillfully with what you’ve got and intentionally manifesting for the “benefit of sentient beings”. Do you have a view on this?
Orthodox whatever standpoint is definitely not the way i see think but  if some people enjoy walking the same old line, let them do so, why loosing time about arguing that there is other ways, waste of time...
Tantric angle is more interesting and actually, Tibetans monks use dream yoga, which is basically LD to train for the after death, they believe that when you die you enter different realms ( bardos) without much consciousness, like a dreamer in a way and training to lucidity with LD is the best way to realise what 's happening to you , it will give you a great advantage at your death...

What i can say i that entering a LD is like entering another world with other rules, it is very enjoyable and there is lot's of simile with "our world" in the way that most of the time ( if not all ) we are dreaming our life, lost in our thoughts, bla, bla here , bla, bla there, we are dreamer, awakening is just a vague idea, almost a myth and becoming lucid at night in a dream helps you to open your eyes in this world too, plus it is really fun ;-)

This idea of drawing the reed from the sheath, it reminds me of the Vedic concept of koshas (covering layers of the Atman) in the Upanishads. Is that where it comes from?

i have no idea

fabrice, so glad you found some LD people to play with!!

chesed, tim

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/26/20 8:54 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Thanks Fabrice,

That's good context. I've started going to bed earlier so I can better watch myself fall asleep. Also it means I'm likely to wake up earlier and meditate with a chance to fall asleep again afterwards, which seems to release more meaningful dream material. I haven't tried any specific LD techniques yet, but I might if my "sleep practice" stagnates!

Thanks again
agnostic

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/26/20 10:56 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:

Tibetans monks use dream yoga, which is basically LD to train for the after death, they believe that when you die you enter different realms ( bardos) without much consciousness, like a dreamer in a way and training to lucidity with LD is the best way to realise what 's happening to you , it will give you a great advantage at your death...

I was thinking a bit more about this. My opinion about reincarnation is that anything is possible and we can't know for sure one way or the other, but I tend to lean against it. Some pali scholars argue that "past lives" in the suttas refers only to the mind taking on different mental forms ("beings") in this life. One can imagine how a doctrine of reincarnation evolves over time, since mammalian brains fear self-annihilation so life after death is what people want to hear and it's good for raising money. Obviously there appears to be some evidence in favor of reincarnation, like children apparently remembering past lives as well as NDEs, but there are possible explanations here as well (maybe early brain understands more than we think and creates "memories", and NDEs could just be hallucination of dying brain).

But my point is, whatever your view on reincarnation, the phenomenology is the same. When I lie on my back and imagine letting myself die then all kinds of "real" and "manufactured" images, memories, people & places pop up in a kind of life review and these "beings" are the raw material for "future beings" in my current life to the extent there is still attachment to them. I imagine the process when I actually die might be the same if I'm conscious and it's not immediate, which could be interpreted as "travelling through the bardo realms". Hence LD is training for the "afterlife" even if you don't believe in reincarnation ...

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/26/20 11:48 AM as a reply to agnostic.
Personally i do not rely on any believe system whatsoever, is there this or is there that and on and on, i don't know and i don't care or as Buddha said: those speculative bla, bla, bla  are not conducive to Nibana ( and  i don't care about Nibana either, ah,ah )

But i like the idea of waking up from a dream in those "realms", i like the idea of doing my last WILD  when i die,  in a jhanic state and if it  doesn't work , well, nothing to worry about it anyway ;-)

RE: Mind made body
Answer
4/27/20 3:44 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
( and  i don't care about Nibana either, ah,ah )

you da man, fabrice. Fuck that nibana shit.

But i like the idea of waking up from a dream in those "realms",

well, within lucidity, even experiencing (fuck "the idea" too, while we're fucking things, lol) waking up as if from a dream, in the deeper dream of those "realms," yes?

 i like the idea of doing my last WILD  when i die,  in a jhanic state

as we die, and where is the difference between the experience of any given breath and "when i die"? once you're sinking into the fathomless out-breath, the landmarks fall away.

and if it  doesn't work , well, nothing to worry about it anyway ;-)

emoticon

Yes! No harm, no foul, at that point. I mean, what is to be done if it "doesn't work"? what the hell could happen to nothingness?

love, tim

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/1/20 9:51 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
 i also train in a meditative state or jhanique state with hypnagogia which is a great way to enhance  lucid dreaming practice  but so far never succeed to do it right from jhanas and i wonder if there could be a way to train for LD/OBE right from the jhana state ? any ideas?:

Hi Tom,

Can you write more about how you train with hypnagogia and why can't you do it right from jhanas? I find significant resemblances between lucid deep dreamless sleep (even phases N3 and N2) and formless jhanas. 

I've been wondering, if this passage from Anguttara Nikaya 4:41 doesn't describe an entry from jhanas to hypnagogia, which in the text is called attainment of vision and considered one of the developments of concentration:

And what is the development of concentration that… leads to the
attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to
the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any
hour of the day]. Day (for him) is the same as night, night is the same as day.
By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.
This is the development of concentration that… leads to the attainment of
knowledge & vision.

Examples of these visions here. Personally I train in stabilizing single-object 3d colorful hypnagoges in higher jhanas, mostly sacred geometry-based objects and use them as objects for insight.

If you would like to read more, here is the thread about lucid dreamless sleep between Neko, Polly and me, where some good hints on mixing concentration/sleep and insight are given.

Curious of your techniques. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/1/20 7:27 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
It's pretty obvious from that sutta that he is not talking about lucid dreaming or a dream body.

Is anything close to sleeping and then waking up and rolling out of the body mentioned anywhere in that sutta?

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/2/20 10:11 AM as a reply to hae1en.
Can you write more about how you train with hypnagogia and why can't you do it right from jhanas?
Hi Hae1en

you misunderstood me, i said that i do train in jhanas with HH ( hypnagogia)  but that i can't get into a lucid dream right from a jhanic state ( at least not yet but i'm working on it)
how i do it ?  it's quite simple but probably because i am very use to HH and the way to use them for LD ( like LD WILD techniques that i will not discuss here, quite irrelevant), in jhanic state , specially J3/J4 which are states where my mind is very calm but very alert, i naturally get HH  probably because those altered state of mind are  very close to liminal  HH state. ( EEG studies have shown that deep meditative state tends to produce same brain waves than HH state ). Usually  traditional meditators are very reluctant with liminal HH state that they don't really identifies as such, they don't see much HH  but feel drowsiness instead and it is true that drowsiness will come quickly if one is not careful and not aware and train to remain in the liminal HH state but once you are familiar with it, it is easy to let HH  spread without feeling drowsy in jhanic state,  particularly in J4 , J4 is ( as far as i can see) a very quite but still very energetic state, this is where i  can let my mind wander in HH , something that you can't do easily at night because HH tend to be very  "aggressive"  and you get carried away in sleep , in J4 i can stand right into HH , sometime it can last for a minute or so, which is almost beginning of dream , sceneries , that i can watch  without falling asleep at all,  i remain perfectly still, a bit like Hercule would watch mermaids and do not get carried away because he is attached to the mast of the boat, this is a very precious training for a LDreamer.

Of course this is a very particular training which i don't always do but  another good thing or good technique inherited from HH is that you can deepen jhana or access to jhana with HH because HH have a narcotic effect, if you are trained enough, you  can focus on them and make a direct link between HH and your body or part of your body, the result is to make your body asleep ( sort of) but not your mind which subsequently deepen your meditative state straight on , that can be very important if you start feeling physical discomfort in order to make it go away, i discovered this when i was doing Goenka vipassana retreats  because we would spend so much time seating and  it was a total game changer for me.

i am not very trained in deep dreamless sleep, i will check your posts ;-)

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/2/20 10:42 AM as a reply to Edward Prunesquallor.
Is anything close to sleeping and then waking up and rolling out of the body mentioned anywhere in that sutta?

Of course not , this is modern technique and the suta talk about LD right  from jhanic state ( "with is mind thus concentrated...")  but there is no point of arguing with people who are "pretty sure" that it can't be possible so

please :

IF ANYONE IS AGAINST THIS IDEA OF LUCID DREAMING  FROM BUDDHA, NO PROBLEM BUT LET OTHER THINK DIFFERENTELY AND DON'T COME HERE, THIS IS USELESS AND RUDE

TY

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/2/20 2:22 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
One of the things that can disorient a regular meditator who is experiencing fractals while out and about is the misappropriation of resources that make one feel like the have lost their abilities/lost their way. I don't know if Daniel has ever mentioned this in his powers talks.

Basixally we go somewhere that sounds fun and it turns out we didn't have enough energy to feel triumphant. Third jhana.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/2/20 2:41 PM as a reply to Edward Prunesquallor.
If I get tired sometimes meditating in the evening then I will let myself drift slowly towards sleep and wait for a hypnagogic jerk to jolt me awake and I find that my concentration is in a deeper state than when I started. Probably I should just get more sleep though!

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/2/20 5:56 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
I can't do this, but I think this book can tell you how - 

https://smile.amazon.com/Adventures-Beyond-Body-Out-Body/dp/0062513710?sa-no-redirect=1

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 7:24 AM as a reply to Sleeping Buddha Syndrome.
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome:
One of the things that can disorient a regular meditator who is experiencing fractals while out and about is the misappropriation of resources that make one feel like the have lost their abilities/lost their way. I don't know if Daniel has ever mentioned this in his powers talks.

Basixally we go somewhere that sounds fun and it turns out we didn't have enough energy to feel triumphant. Third jhana.

i can't get  what you mean emoticon

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 7:45 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
I had some experiences last night that might be relevant for this thread. I was kind of shaky when I wrote down the report, hence the spellings error and grammatical errors.


Last night I experimented with sort of a tandem-version of astral projection together with someone close to me. I haven't had much experiences like that before. I have been outside my body but the only time that lasted for more than a moment it was when my dad came to say goodbye after killing himself. I have just assumed that I don't have the drive and imagination required for that kind of exploration. The opportunity came up to get some guidance in getting started with it. In the very beginning there was a minor bump in the road as we discovered that I process things differently than what he was used to. I couldn't just leave my body behind that fast, and I felt that there was a barrier in my lack of visual imagination. My guide was very sensitive to my experiences, though. He asked some questions about it and took it from there. I could still feel my body but it was floating, so I was instructed to think of that as my astral body and go with the sensory experiences. I had said that I wanted to go into space but that upward movement just didn't happen. After some alternative suggestions, we settled for the ocean instead. I still couldn't visualize, but we focused on the tactile and kinesthetical sensations of movement in the water and the coolening of the water as we sank deeper. We sank deep deep into stillness and just remained there for a while. None of us had any drive to do anything. It felt safe there in the deep stillness.

Then there was a sense of movement. I think it was some synesthetic mix between tactile and visual imagery. I was instructed to just go with that, and from here I took the lead. I was swirling around there in the depth, spiraling, being swept by undercurrents, looping around... Then there was a loud outer sound that went all vibrational and sort of projected me upwards, and suddenly I was in space. Before that, I had been feeling the water around me, soft and smooth and cohesive, and the pressure from it. Now the pressure was gone and that cohesiveness was gone. Instead it was spacious and zero gravity. Then there was air, enabling me to move. I was moving fast. As I slowed down, there was a shift with gravity coming back and a feeling of increased density around me. Then I found that I was in a lake or sea, rising up to the surface. I could see the surface approaching and then the skye above me. When I moved my gaze I could see water around me and a beach and trees and a lawn. I don't remember if there were people on the beach.

From here my memory is a bit vague. Maybe I sank down into the water again. Yeah, I think that was it. And I was drawn out by undercurrents, and then I was moving with the waves until I felt the sea bed. The tide waves were withdrawing, leaving me behind in the fluted sand, water splashing over me for a while until it was ebb. I lay there in the firm sand, my body heavy. Then after a while, I started to sink down in the sand. Soon I was covered by sand. I still felt completely safe. I just surrendered to sinking, descending. Then the firmness was gone. I was empty space. I asked my guide where he was. He replied "I'm here". Then there was that sense of being drawn into being again. It was overwhelming, in a pleasant way. I had to breathe heavily, almost like a newborn gasping for air.The intensity increased. Stars were exploding all around me for quite some time, and I was exploding with them. It was absolute euphoria. I don't know what happy chemicals were involved, but I was high as a kite.

After a while the intensity calmed down, and I was completely serene, albeit still high. There were lights swirling around me. I was in the ocean again, appraching land. I stood on the seabed, watching the land. It was barren, with low conifer plants and little more. I could feel my body both there and in my bed. I think I got lost in some fantasy or dream, because when I suddenly heard the voice of my guide I was startled.

In retrospect I realized that I had made a tour through all the elements.

I was still flooded with happy chemicals of different sorts, so I barely slept. When I closed my eyes, brights lights were swirling around and my body felt light. I was still high as a kite when I woke up in the morning, throughout breakfast and walking to my yoga class, and in the beginning of the yoga class. The asanas were challenging and my body was tired so during the practice that I didn't feel high anymore. However, at the end of the class, in shavasana, I was floating among multicolored swirls. Walking from the class, I suddenly felt first really exhausted and then shaky. I thought I might end up in a fetal position due to withdrawal symptoms because my body had depleted its supply of happy chemicals (been there before). I decided to sit down in a park under a tree to write up this report and get grounded, and so I did. Now I feel almost normal, but I'm starving. I also think I may need to digest my experiences in silence for a while. It was all good (more than good, obviously), but I may need to integrate it.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 8:32 AM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
I can't do this, but I think this book can tell you how - 

https://smile.amazon.com/Adventures-Beyond-Body-Out-Body/dp/0062513710?sa-no-redirect=1

no it doesn't and i know it,  like most of what has been written about OBE/LD , those people are not meditator ( or let's say not really) except Jurgen Ziewe.

Jhana related to LD/OBE is definitely not a field which has been explored or i can't find any thing about it and this what i try to work on.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 8:43 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I had some experiences last night that might be relevant for this thread. I was kind of shaky when I wrote down the report, hence the spellings error and grammatical errors.
Hi Linda
i read your experience but won't discuss much about it here ( this is not a LD/OBE forum) but as a ( very) experienced LDreamer, all i can tell you is that it is not uncommon at all to get some "guidance" and to get through this kind of experience, it is very impressive at the beginning and can boost your day but once you've been through many time
you realize that it is something that can happen quite easily and there is nothing that mystical about it, just enjoy it and try to reproduce it ;-)

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 9:36 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
That's good advice. I appreciate it. 

Do you happen to know what neurotransmittors are involved in the strong euphoria I described? I'm still feeling somewhat trippy. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 10:15 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
no i don't but i 've noticed that in most of LD experience, specially if it was long enough, there is always excitement where you wake up,sometimes it can be hard to get back to sleep,
is it just excitement or do we get some nero chemical stuff from the brain ? can't say.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 10:44 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
This was definitely more than excitement. I was tripping. And maybe I'm wrong, but I think the fireworksy part of this was a second jhana ride, with a strong non-dual component (the symbolic union of empty space and awareness), which is why I thought it might be relevant. It was very clearly an A&P experience. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 11:15 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Well, you're the one who knows about what your experience is like and this will often refer to anything you like, believe in, etc,

personally i don't train or believe in traditional vipassana insight ( like A&P and all the Mahasi insight map ), so there is little chance that i experience it,
things make sens because we believe in and sooner or later we develop a tendency to experience those believes.
experiences are just experiences and in a way we always remain in a world of personal fantasy.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 11:25 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Sure, all experiences are constructions. That includes jhanas, and you asked about the relationship between LD/OBE and jhana. There is a relationship between the construction A&P and the construction second jhana. 

Maybe I misunderstood your question? What kind of input are you looking for, exactly? Sutra references only? 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 11:55 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Maybe I misunderstood your question?


No you did not but you probably did misunderstood my answer, it was a tricky one ;-)

Anyway what i am looking for ( LD/Jhana) is very clear: get into LD right from a jhana state. Simple to understand, difficult to succeed.

And to my view jhanas are very concrete state of mind ( forget my last answer !) , when you get there over and over, specially is you use iteration ( 1/2/3/4/1/2/3/4...) you really get into very altered state of mind, i 'm amazed how high i can get , sometimes i am so stone that
when i remember my  "heroic drogue  youth" trying anything i could ( heroine, cocaine, LSD , and on and on )
i wonder how can this jhana state get me even higher ! i mean very concretelly like my all body is gone and  "pulsing energy" from everywhere has replaced it, my mind seems stopped and hanged in a transitional world and  there is absolutely no imagination in that.
of course i also do "serious work" ( ah, ah ) and i believe that jhana gives  you the best insight you can get about ...anything.

quite the same for LD, they are very real, very concrete, in a LD you are like in another world with different rules, that's all and if hopefully as the tibetain think , you have a chance to get through those world when we die, well, i think i will hang on for a while over there ;-)

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 2:49 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
I don't think it was tricky, just vague.

I'm sorry I was vague too. I do know what jhanas are. I have done the entire arch, including the formless realms as defined by Daniel. We don't seem to agree about them, though, because I don't count feeling the flow intensely as fourth jhana. That should have settled into chrystal clear calm by then, by my standards. What I meant when I expressed uncertainty was simply that I don't have any specific reference point for specific jhanas as manifested while in OBE. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 5:10 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Hi Linda, this was a really fascinating experience, thanks for sharing. On thing wasn't clear to me - was your guide a real person in the room with you before you started? (rather than someone you called up in the trip). If so, did their experience match yours in any ways you could corroborate afterwards?

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/3/20 11:34 PM as a reply to agnostic.
It was a real person, not in the room, but we were talking while doing it (he did most of the talking). This was set up so that I would get the experience. He tagged along for the purpose of guiding me on what to do. We didn't have exactly the same experiences as we were both filtering it through our own minds, but he got sort of a participant oberservation tour as to how my mind works. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/4/20 12:50 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
I had some experiences last night that might be relevant for this thread. I was kind of shaky when I wrote down the report, hence the spellings error and grammatical errors.
Hi Linda
i read your experience but won't discuss much about it here ( this is not a LD/OBE forum) . . .

Dear Tom,

This is DhO, where that which is not forbidden is allowed. This is Linda's practice log, and you are in a mutually consenting, deeply mutually interesting conversations on the frontiers of practice. I think you do everyone a disservice here by laying these unnecessary strictures upon what and how much you are "allowed" to say.

Everyone on DhO knows, in any case, that is you say something i think is off-base in any hurtful way, i will tear you a new asshole.

so let it rip, monsieur! we have nothing to lose but our ignorance. We're all grown-ups; Linda, whose thread this is and whose interest and deep engagement you have entirely, is more grown up than most. Say your piece without inhibition, I say, and thank you if you do.

(edit)  OOOPS! emoticon This is not linda's practice thread, But in a way, that makes my point even more strongly. Linda is here visiting a threa YOU began, coming to "your place" to ask honest questions. Isn't that why we're all here? Give her the fullest, most honest and truth-full answers you can, to whatever extent you wish.

Je vous en prie, monsieur, sincèrement et de tout mon cœur: n'hésitez pas à parler de votre esprit, à linda, à moi, à tous ceux de la sangha DhO. Vous avez autant le droit à la liberté d'expression ici que quiconque.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/4/20 2:44 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I don't think it was tricky, just vague.

I have done the entire arch, including the formless realms as defined by Daniel. We don't seem to agree about them, though, because I don't count feeling the flow intensely as fourth jhana. That should have settled into chrystal clear calm by then, by my standards. 
What trouble me  is " defined by Daniel ", i don't think that anyone can really define what  jhanas are  as we  go through very personal experience, of course there is some common aspect, feeling, sensations and all but still the experience is unique.

Personnaly and specially if i deepen jhana,  i experience very strong energetic physical sensation even though my mind is " chrystal clear calm" ( common aspect) , this is due to lot's of pratice of  body scan through retreats and personal yoga nidra practice ( more than 30 years ) and probably that this is a personal aspect.


(edit) OOOPS! emoticon This is not linda's practice thread, But in a way, that makes my point even more strongly. Linda is here visiting a threa YOU began, coming to "your place" to ask honest questions. Isn't that why we're all here? Give her the fullest, most honest and truth-full answers you can, to whatever extent you wish.
Indeed it's not but of course i don't mind talking about any kind of LD/OBE experience but let's say that this is a field that i really know technically speaking and discuss a lot in other places , i just didn't want to go too far in that thing unless someone ask a quite precise question, experiences in that area are very, very subjective and related to the one who experience it i would say...

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/4/20 2:51 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
emoticon
fabrice tom
of course i don't mind talking about any kind of LD/OBE experience but let's say that this is a field that i really know technically speaking and discuss a lot in other places , i just didn't want to go too far in that thing unless someone ask a quite precise question, experiences in that area are very, very subjective and related to the one who experience it i would say...

bien sûr. I wouldn't want to waste the time discoursing into a void either. I think you will find Linda is capable of extraodinary precision in her questions.

I am delighted that you are here. merci beaucoup.







love, tim

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/4/20 7:56 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I will try to bring more clarity about what i mean by mixing jhana
and Ld and i will try to describe an experience of  this kind of mixing.

Problem is that if i talk about jhana/LD to LDreamer, they have no
idea about what is jhana and  if i talk
about  jhana/LD to meditator they have no ( or little ) idea about what i'm
talking about related to WILD LD techniques ...

Let 's have a  ( very)  quick explanation about WILD LD  :
You have to practice wild techniques ( entering a LD without loosing
consciousness) after a WBTB ( waking up after 4 to 6hrs of sleep and
going back to bed , sleep cycle are about 1.30h) then you let yourself drift into sleeping  and try to
wake up as quick as possible , in fact you have to use micro sleep,
which means that you wake up shortly and fall asleep again , at each
waking up you can try to separate using particular techniques like the
one describe in Michael Raduga book ( probably the easiest  and best technique available for newbies and i've read them all )

There is a large range of phenomena related to wild techniques
whether you fall asleep or you come back from sleep because falling asleep and
coming back from a dream ( waking up ) are "door entrance", if you fall
asleep you will go through HH ( hypnagogia )  and eventually at different levels will
get right inside the beginning of a dream scene ( those kind of wild are harder
to master and require experience), when you wake up, you can go back in
the dream using  " OBE style " techniques, which end up as if you would
get up from your bed in your room with your dream body  or "mind made
body" (this is what works more often). Of course there is lot's of other
things that can be made but basically that is it.

As a well trained   LDreamer in the field of wake induce lucid dream ( i've been
training for years almost every night) i know those technique and apply
them ( amongst others ) in a personal way which has become  more
instinct applied technique than anything else.

Now what i try do is putting myself in a jhanic state as deep as
possible, something like a good J4 where i will not feel my body anymore
and a very calm and focus mind, thus i go back to bed from my seating
meditation  and  as  going back to bed lower the jhanic state i need a
few minutes while i am lying to get back in J4 or so, then i let myself
drift toward sleeping.

At this point you have to consider that a "normal  person" has little
chance to wake up before 1.30 h because one will get back to sleep
cycle, i do wake up more often because i spent months of intense
training to break those cycles after a WBTB ( never before as i need a good night
rest of 3 to 4 cycle before a wake back to bed, then i can mess up my sleep ).

So what 's the point of using jhana if i can wake up many time after a WBTB and apply techniques and  go for a wild ?

The point is that result is sometimes very weird and seems to enhance the ability to get up in a dream body.

for instance :

Without jhanic state:  i  wake up apply technique and get up in my
dream body or get through HH and get inside a dream, in any case i can
do it 1 or 2 times ( rarely more ) during a night.

With jhanic state:  i wake up, do not need to apply techniques and
get up from my bed in a dream body , i can do it many times, each time i
wake up my body is still in a jhanic state which is very close to
catatonia and my mind quite focus  even though i can experience "normal "
things during the LD
i remember that recently it was like a never ending in and out,  i
can't remember how many time i was going back to the " inner world", may
be 10 times and the "dream land" was almost without dream elements, at
one point i was swimming in a sort of  void  weightlessness but very stable, every time i was
back to IRL , i could feel that there was not real separation between
dream world and reality, that is why i could get back there  again and
again...
This is just an example and this is what i mean by  mixing jhana and LD cant get weird.
i am just at the beginning of this kind of experimentation, the main
difficulty is to get into  the jhanic state at 3/4 AM, i've noticed that
it is not my best time for getting into jhana, may be because my
energetic psychic level is not good enough at that time, sometimes it works , sometimes not.

hope this will help to understand the work i try to do...

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/6/20 7:03 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
Hi all
I discovered quite recently that  in the
Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life , something is 
described as a mind made body, just after the Buddha describe Jhanas in
the sutta, he says :

"With his mind thus concentrated... he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made
body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of
the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath..."

then he describe supranormal powers:

"With his mind thus concentrated...he directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers... Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds...

It seems obvious that he is talking about LD or OBE and a mind made body seems to me very related to a dream body

The thing is that Buddha seems to perform those LD/OBE right from  jhanas  ( which has been describe just before , also he start paragraphs saying : "With his mind thus concentrated") 

For years i have been training on LD with a very high practice ( mixing wake back to bed and meditation every night ) i know how to get inside a dream without loosing consciousness ( wake induce lucid dream technique ) in many different ways, i also train in a meditative state or jhanique state with hypnagogia which is a great way to enhance  lucid dreaming practice  but so far never succeed to do it right from jhanas and i wonder if there could be a way to train for LD/OBE right from the jhana state ? any ideas?

TY
Fabrice
Fabrice, I don't think you need to find someone who is "better" at LD/OBE than you to get your help with this. I know a way to simply be in jhana, which is all it takes from that side; and i am able to speak aloud from that state, as required. The key here is two-way communication between the bodies, while the action takes place in 1) the jhana state of the body with the one simply abiding in jhana and 2) the astral/OBE/LD body of the body of the lucidonaut. The tricky part would come down to whether the lucidonaut can find a place to be both lucidly dreaming and able to activate his parked body's vocalization and hearing. Do you see? It could be done by a simple phone hook-up. Once comminication is established this, the tuning possible eanbles the dreamer to stabilize in the same jhana, possibly "talked in" by the jhana guy, possibly just find his own way by vectoring in on the jhana's voice. From there, in co-jhana, as it were, the LD is on his own to see if he can take off on his explorations. Which i believe is what you're shotting for here. What do you think?

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/6/20 9:43 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Do you see?
Not quite ...to be honest.

But may be i get the idea , the thing is that i don't think it works that way ( or you should try to explain it as if i was 8 years old :-)

My experience show me that it can be possible to be  be-located, at least for a short time , it happens when you go through HH field while falling asleep at wbtb or during micro awakening, result  is that i can feel my body on the bed but my mind is in the dream, sometimes like a sort of "floating consciousnesses" ( means that dream body is not yet formed) but it sometimes happens that i can feel my position in the bed and in the same time my body ( dream body) is lying in the dream, i remember once where i was lying in the grass of a meadow in a dream and i was feeling my real body in my real bed, but this is very rare ...
My idea is that it should be possible to have someting similar to that while meditating in a seating position even though i have no idea so far how to proceed.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/6/20 9:49 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
Do you see?
Not quite ...to be honest.

But may be i get the idea , the thing is that i don't think it works that way ( or you should try to explain it as if i was 8 years old :-)

My experience show me that it can be possible to be  be-located, at least for a short time , it happens when you go through HH field while falling asleep at wbtb or during micro awakening, result  is that i can feel my body on the bed but my mind is in the dream, sometimes like a sort of "floating consciousnesses" ( means that dream body is not yet formed) but it sometimes happens that i can feel my position in the bed and in the same time my body ( dream body) is lying in the dream, i remember once where i was lying in the grass of a meadow in a dream and i was feeling my real body in my real bed, but this is very rare ...
My idea is that it should be possible to have someting similar to that while meditating in a seating position even though i have no idea so far how to proceed.

The key here is understanding that the physical body is the root of the whole astral house of cards. There will be wheels within wheels all the way up, but there will always be communication of some sort from any given astral body to the regular body, in case of emergencies at either level, and th need for quick reintegration. This is evolution 101. So assuming that, the body speaking and hearing what the astral body needs to hear for its own purposes, is just more of the same team effort. Call it bilocation, call it what you will, i have done it, and it is possible. 

You could actually be lying down for this exercise. I would be seated, but all you need to be in comfortable to the max, and capable of that bilocational sensing and speaking and hearing.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/6/20 10:29 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.

i have done it, and it is possible.
Well, then you should describe exactlly what was the experience , not some aproximation but the the exact report as if you were  to  make a police statement, that will help because at the end of the day  only experience matters...

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/6/20 10:55 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:

i have done it, and it is possible.
Well, then you should describe exactlly what was the experience , not some aproximation but the the exact report as if you were  to  make a police statement, that will help because at the end of the day  only experience matters...

do you have an email i could use?

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/6/20 11:01 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
you can send it at fab2064@gmail.com but it will be good to have it here , no?

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/6/20 11:19 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
you can send it at fab2064@gmail.com but it will be good to have it here , no?


lol, no.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/7/20 8:35 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
I will try to bring more clarity about what i mean by mixing jhana
and Ld and i will try to describe an experience of  this kind of mixing.

Problem is that if i talk about jhana/LD to LDreamer, they have no
idea about what is jhana and  if i talk
about  jhana/LD to meditator they have no ( or little ) idea about what i'm
talking about related to WILD LD techniques ...

I totally understand that frustration.



Let 's have a  ( very)  quick explanation about WILD LD  :
You have to practice wild techniques ( entering a LD without loosing
consciousness) after a WBTB ( waking up after 4 to 6hrs of sleep and
going back to bed , sleep cycle are about 1.30h) then you let yourself drift into sleeping  and try to
wake up as quick as possible , in fact you have to use micro sleep,
which means that you wake up shortly and fall asleep again , at each
waking up you can try to separate using particular techniques like the
one describe in Michael Raduga book ( probably the easiest  and best technique available for newbies and i've read them all )

There is a large range of phenomena related to wild techniques
whether you fall asleep or you come back from sleep because falling asleep and
coming back from a dream ( waking up ) are "door entrance", if you fall
asleep you will go through HH ( hypnagogia )  and eventually at different levels will
get right inside the beginning of a dream scene ( those kind of wild are harder
to master and require experience), when you wake up, you can go back in
the dream using  " OBE style " techniques, which end up as if you would
get up from your bed in your room with your dream body  or "mind made
body" (this is what works more often). Of course there is lot's of other
things that can be made but basically that is it.

As a well trained   LDreamer in the field of wake induce lucid dream ( i've been
training for years almost every night) i know those technique and apply
them ( amongst others ) in a personal way which has become  more
instinct applied technique than anything else.

Now what i try do is putting myself in a jhanic state as deep as
possible, something like a good J4 where i will not feel my body anymore
and a very calm and focus mind, thus i go back to bed from my seating
meditation  and  as  going back to bed lower the jhanic state i need a
few minutes while i am lying to get back in J4 or so, then i let myself
drift toward sleeping.

At this point you have to consider that a "normal  person" has little
chance to wake up before 1.30 h because one will get back to sleep
cycle, i do wake up more often because i spent months of intense
training to break those cycles after a WBTB ( never before as i need a good night
rest of 3 to 4 cycle before a wake back to bed, then i can mess up my sleep ).

So what 's the point of using jhana if i can wake up many time after a WBTB and apply techniques and  go for a wild ?

The point is that result is sometimes very weird and seems to enhance the ability to get up in a dream body.

for instance :

Without jhanic state:  i  wake up apply technique and get up in my
dream body or get through HH and get inside a dream, in any case i can
do it 1 or 2 times ( rarely more ) during a night.

With jhanic state:  i wake up, do not need to apply techniques and
get up from my bed in a dream body , i can do it many times, each time i
wake up my body is still in a jhanic state which is very close to
catatonia and my mind quite focus  even though i can experience "normal "
things during the LD
i remember that recently it was like a never ending in and out,  i
can't remember how many time i was going back to the " inner world", may
be 10 times and the "dream land" was almost without dream elements, at
one point i was swimming in a sort of  void  weightlessness but very stable, every time i was
back to IRL , i could feel that there was not real separation between
dream world and reality, that is why i could get back there  again and
again...
This is just an example and this is what i mean by  mixing jhana and LD cant get weird.
i am just at the beginning of this kind of experimentation, the main
difficulty is to get into  the jhanic state at 3/4 AM, i've noticed that
it is not my best time for getting into jhana, may be because my
energetic psychic level is not good enough at that time, sometimes it works , sometimes not.

hope this will help to understand the work i try to do...


Indeed this makes it much clearer what you are looking for.

That time in the morning is usually about the time I wake up in jhana in some periods. I seem to get into jhana automatically at the exact time that would be perfectly suited for lucid dreaming. That’s interesting. I really need to get systematic with this practice then.

I have some thoughts about this that I believe could possibly be helpful, but there is also a great chance that they won’t resonate with you at all. Please feel free to ignore them if the latter is the case. I wouldn’t want to shove anything down your throat.

As an experienced shamatha practicioner with little to no interest in insight, you can probably get into jhanas in a reliable way regardless of what insight cycle you are in, and therefore you haven’t seen the need for paying attention to progress of insight cycling. However, this time of the night where you need to get into jhana, your access is limited, right? That’s where the cycling might be of relevance. I depend more on the cycling for my jhana access than you do, so for me the impact of the cycling is apparent. There are nanas where jhanas are more accessible and nanas where jhanas are less accessible. If you need to get into jhana at a time of the night when it is challenging for you, timing with regard to the cycling of nanas might be what could tip the scale in your favor. If you are aiming for fourth jhana, the equanimity nana is your friend. If you are aiming for the more fireworksy stuff of second jhana, the A&P nana is enough. If you want to increase your access to jhana, 3rd path pr 4th path would probably do the trick.

fabrice tom:

What trouble me  is " defined by Daniel ", i don't think that anyone can really define what  jhanas are  as we  go through very personal experience, of course there is some common aspect, feeling, sensations and all but still the experience is unique.


I believe so too, and that is exactly why I prefer to be specific about which definition I’m using. Just naming the Jhana doesn’t say anything. The number of years someone has practiced something doesn’t say much either, because the progress people are making (or not making) varies a lot. For communication to happen, we need to go into the phenomenology of the experience. Daniel is very specific in his phenomenology, and my experiences match his descriptions, at least the way I use the words. You are clearly very much into precision in your practice, and as you may have noticed, it is hard to get specific answers regarding that precision if you aren’t precise in your descriptions. Even if we are precise, misunderstandings are all too common since language really isn't cut out for this terrain. I'm just trying to be as precise as I can. 



Personnaly and specially if i deepen jhana,  i experience very strong energetic physical sensation even though my mind is " chrystal clear calm" ( common aspect) , this is due to lot's of pratice of  body scan through retreats and personal yoga nidra practice ( more than 30 years ) and probably that this is a personal aspect.


I'm the kind of practicioner that needs to move the curve higher up in order for it to make sense, too, albeit only preiodically in my case, so I see what you mean. However, it is also the case that even when one is in fourth jhana as a baseline, so to speak, there is a cycling of getting back into lower jhanas to regenerate more of the drive that enables a longer stay in fourth jhana. Especially if we have stronger concentration, the great depth of the jhana can masque as a higher jhana when we are in fact briefly going back to a lower jhana to refill. Without knowledge of the insight cycling (that is inevitably going on in the background if the practicioner has great precision, because the skillful navigation involves insights), that aspect can easily be missed. Looking out for that kind of shift may already be part of your practice, and if so, please just ignore this as an unneccesary digression, but if it isn't, it could possibly add even more precision to your already exquisite practice. 



let's say that this is a field that i really know technically speaking and discuss a lot in other places , i just didn't want to go too far in that thing unless someone ask a quite precise question, experiences in that area are very, very subjective and related to the one who experience it i would say...


I totally understand. You started this thread for a specific reason, not for the purpose of having to say everything over again that you have already seen all too many discussions about. No worries. The added clarifications will hopefully lead to more appropriate responses. It's a very interesting question. I hope somebody with the right set of qualifications will respond. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/7/20 9:57 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.

If you need to get into jhana at a time of the night when it is challenging for you, timing with regard to the cycling of nanas might be what could tip the scale in your favor. If you are aiming for fourth jhana, the equanimity nana is your friend. If you are aiming for the more fireworksy stuff of second jhana, the A&P nana is enough. If you want to increase your access to jhana, 3rd path pr 4th path would probably do the trick.
I remember at a retreat i brought those mahasi nana stuff , tried to work something out of it but finally give up , it was more some kind of mental stuff i was doing then anything else, so i gave up but no big deal , if some like it and find it convenient , fine , i don't so i leave it.

As i said i trust more instinct insight then anything else and practicing jhanas give you those kind of insight, there is very little mental stuff out of it, i sometimes call it cognition without mental but it 's very real.

And i never go directly to a J4 but always through all of them , to tell you clearly what i think about , i would say that there is not anything like J1/2/3/4  it is more like a continuous flow of altered state of consciousnesses where you dive in  and iteration works like a deepening effect of that flow.
And i also think that we have psychic moment where we are at our best and sometime not, for instance i am always at my best in the morning ( i am also a morning person , can't hold long at evening and can't do any serious work at evening time )
Especially if we have stronger concentration, the great depth of the jhana can masque as a higher jhana when we are in fact briefly going back to a lower jhana to refill. Without knowledge of the insight cycling (that is inevitably going on in the background if the practitioner has great precision, because the skillful navigation involves insights), that aspect can easily be missed.
But training is the great master! the more you train the more you know, it's like a root learning, then you recognize where you are or how to get there, it's like reading the manual and going through it for real, as a matter of fact in that area all maps are vague, all maps give you a very vague idea of the territory which has to be discovered personally,  maps should just contain one information: go that way  and find out , but so many maps and so many people looking at it like the finger showing the moon  ;-)  
I hope somebody with the right set of qualifications will respond.
I hope we will build the right set of qualifications emoticon

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/7/20 3:17 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:

With jhanic state [to LD]
i remember that recently it was like a never ending in and out,  i
can't remember how many time i was going back to the " inner world", may
be 10 times and the "dream land" was almost without dream elements, at
one point i was swimming in a sort of void weightlessness but very stable
, every time i was
back to IRL , i could feel that there was not real separation between
dream world and reality, that is why i could get back there  again and
again...

hope this will help to understand the work i try to do...
Have you ever considered that the territory you accessed (bolded part) was lucid dreamless (formless) sleep as opposed to lucid formed dream or some sort of protoform of it? If it has an allure for you, have you wondered for what reasons, if your conscious motivation is not insight into the nature of the self?

For me it's so wonderful not to have a body! Seems you also feel relief that reality and personality are as constructed as the dream.

Historically in various traditions insight into dreamless sleep constitutes a doorway to desidentification with a formed body along with it's psychological content - because it unfolds the nature of awareness when all content it's aware of is itself. Formless awareness aware of itself. 

I have wondered for a long time if lucid dreamless sleep is not analogous or even the same as fromless jhanas (5-8). In the end in both realms there is no body. I don't remember if you wrote about formless attainments in this thread? Anyhow your question seem to suggest you make a distinction with this form of formless sleep lucidity and jhanas. Is there a reason? How are they different? How is the entry method different? 

If you find the difference it might help me to establish how lucid dreamless sleep is different than formless jhanas.

If you didn't consider it, the techniques to enter and stabilize formless attainments can help you find your own method to go there from J4.

I also practice in the mornings and enter lucid hypnagogic states and lucid formless sleep (shallow version) straight from jhanas. But my way was totally reversed to yours. I started from dreamless lucidity and developed the ability to manifest single formed high definition objects in the vast jhana galaxy to break the spell of empty witnessing consciousness as a final destination. I practice with rotating diamonds or fractals in the space ;-) I can now clearly see that so called self-aware awareness is made of subtle, panoramic, global objects/phenomena like luminosity, bliss, stability. They cover the whole field of experience and are so big it seems the awareness is empty, when in fact it's supported upon those mega-screens, which are changing, unsatisfactory and have no constant existence.

In fact, I now think jhana is a frozen form of alayavijnana (storage of all our karmic seeds) with hindrancess temporarily suppressed. And the manifestations of hypnagogic objects right there in the "void" shows that this ice can easily morph into snow figures ;-). But disregard this paragraph, if you are not into it.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/7/20 5:44 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
As i said i trust more instinct insight then anything else and practicing jhanas give you those kind of insight, there is very little mental stuff out of it, i sometimes call it cognition without mental but it 's very real.

That’s how I do vipassana. That’s not a mental thing for me, but something that just happens very intuitively. Also, I don’t do dry vipassana. Jhanas are in the mix. For the moment, there is more the case of non-dual absorptions happening on their own, though. They tend to wake me up during the night. I wake up being space intermingling with awareness. There is a lot of insight involved in that. There are a multitude of ways for insight to happen. Noting is just one of a great variety of methods.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/7/20 5:45 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
And i never go directly to a J4 but always through all of them , to tell you clearly what i think about , i would say that there is not anything like J1/2/3/4 it is more like a continuous flow of altered state of consciousnesses where you dive in and iteration works like a deepening effect of that flow.

There's a continuum, sure. But they do have very different qualities. Unless you tailormake your own blends or totally new versions; that's an option too. I made one based on lust today. The Buddha would not have approved, but boy, was he missing out on something.

And i also think that we have psychic moment where we are at our best and sometime not, for instance i am always at my best in the morning ( i am also a morning person , can't hold long at evening and can't do any serious work at evening time )

Maybe it would be easier for you to learn to get into lucid dreaming from wakeful meditation in the morning than getting into jhanas during the night, then?

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/7/20 5:49 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
training is the great master! the more you train the more you know, it's like a root learning, then you recognize where you are or how to get there, it's like reading the manual and going through it for real, as a matter of fact in that area all maps are vague, all maps give you a very vague idea of the territory which has to be discovered personally, maps should just contain one information: go that way and find out , but so many maps and so many people looking at it like the finger showing the moon ;-)

Do you seriously think that I’m talking about this from a book? It’s based on training.

I hope we will build the right set of qualifications

I’m working on it. I only started very recently and I already succeded in doing a task in a lucid dream. That took me a few days, and I didn’t even work on it systematically. I may be a newbie but I’m an incredibly fast learner, because I'm intuitive.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/7/20 5:53 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Sorry for spamming with several short posts. There is a reoccurring forum bug that only allows for a limited number of characters, and I didn't have the patience to wait for that to be fixed.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 4:10 AM as a reply to hae1en.
hae1en:

In fact, I now think jhana is a frozen form of alayavijnana (storage of all our karmic seeds) with hindrancess temporarily suppressed. And the manifestations of hypnagogic objects right there in the "void" shows that this ice can easily morph into snow figures ;-). But disregard this paragraph, if you are not into it.


That’s pretty much what I have been thinking lately too.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 4:22 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
hae1en:

In fact, I now think jhana is a frozen form of alayavijnana (storage of all our karmic seeds) with hindrancess temporarily suppressed. And the manifestations of hypnagogic objects right there in the "void" shows that this ice can easily morph into snow figures ;-). But disregard this paragraph, if you are not into it.


That’s pretty much what I have been thinking lately too.

Sign me up too.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 5:29 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
hae1en:

In fact, I now think jhana is a frozen form of alayavijnana (storage of all our karmic seeds) with hindrancess temporarily suppressed. And the manifestations of hypnagogic objects right there in the "void" shows that this ice can easily morph into snow figures ;-). But disregard this paragraph, if you are not into it.


That’s pretty much what I have been thinking lately too.

Sign me up too.

Great :-). So if alaya is a storage of both individual and collective seeds, then we can use this notion to create a model of the mechanism of "the development of concentration that… leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision?" (AN4.41) and "the development of the base of power" (SN 51:20). Of course the Canon does not use any concept similar to alaya, there is only bhavanga mentioned in the later commentaries. But many other sources kept reinventing this wheel, just as we do :-).

So without alaya as an explanation, there will always remain the question (among others concerning rebirth etc.), where do the visions in higher jhanas come from? Everything is frozen and there is no input from the senses, which would serve as a cause and then... bam. Angelic chorus. Spider web made of crystal. All in HD.

I used to wonder how these visions are experienced. Now as I'm in more advanced training phase - given their photorealistic, hallucinatory character occuring out of the blue and clean cut from the vast unified empty fields of jhanas - I think they might borrow the same neural (and not only) mechanism as lucid dreaming and hypnagogia. In any case, they are experienced with a similar flavour, at least to me. I guess similar point was made by tom.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 7:52 AM as a reply to hae1en.
lHave you ever considered that the territory you accessed (bolded part) was lucid dreamless (formless) sleep as opposed to lucid formed dream or some sort of protoform of it? If it has an allure for you, have you wondered for what reasons, if your conscious motivation is not insight into the nature of the self?

I wonder a lot but at the end of the day they are just wondering ;-)

Let 's say that by experience i quite know LD and LD void state, i could say that according to all the reports i 've read from my LD forum ( french Attrape-songes) i am probably the guy most specialized in void state which means that i often end up in a LD without dream elements, i have a dream body though but the space is empty , i can walk, run, fly in an almost pure void, sometimes it's windy sometimes not.
There was a time where i was desperate to find a way out but not anymore , i quite enjoy it , it is a very stable state ( at least for me ) where i can also practice geometric body figures similar to what one would do in skydiving ( which i practice) and eventually light appears and it end up in a LD with dreams elements.
I have wondered for a long time if lucid dreamless sleep is not analogous or even the same as fromless jhanas (5-8). In the end in both realms there is no body. I don't remember if you wrote about formless attainments in this thread?
i would not compare jhanas with dreamless sleep and  i am very suspicious about formless jhanas which i feel like some kind of J4 development, some kind of  deepening J4.
But my way was totally reversed to yours. I started from dreamless lucidity and developed the ability to manifest single formed high definition objects in the vast jhana galaxy to break the spell of empty witnessing consciousness as a final destination. I practice with rotating diamonds or fractals in the space ;-) I can now clearly see that so called self-aware awareness is made of subtle, panoramic, global objects/phenomena like luminosity, bliss, stability.
It sounds more like some kind of active imagination to me otherwise it should be hypnagogia and this is not something one can really control but you might have develop something of your own that might not work with anybody else
In fact, I now think jhana is a frozen form of alayavijnana (storage of all our karmic seeds) with hindrancess temporarily suppressed. And the manifestations of hypnagogic objects right there in the "void" shows that this ice can easily morph into snow figures ;-). But disregard this paragraph, if you are not into it.

well this is where our way will separate ;-)
i don't believe in karmic seeds, this is just a believe system and like any believe system they work because you want to believe in  it
there is so much possibilities of believing, so much maps of anything, sometimes it is convenient to get into one in order to run an experience and see what happens but i will always be reluctant to say i believe in this or that or ... whatever. All i can say is that i don't know, i run experiences, see what i can get out of it but can't be sure of anything, no karma, no dharma, no nirvana, nothing for which i would give a blank check.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 8:10 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
There's a continuum, sure. But they do have very different qualities. Unless you tailormake your own blends or totally new versions; that's an option too. I made one based on lust today. The Buddha would not have approved, but boy, was he missing out on something.

Yes Linda i do think they have qualities and the way buddha see them is with is own way ( plus the fact that we can't be quite sure about what he was really thinking about) , doesn't means that we have to stick to it, and yes i tailormake them , just for me, as i please! forget about buddha, this guy is gone a looong time ago and will not guide you much, try anything you can , make experiments, make it new, make it yours , make it fun!

I’m working on it. I only started very recently and I already succeded in doing a task in a lucid dream.
well then you should be part of this project :

https://pro.obe4u.com/registration

what we do is to conduct  experiments  while we are in a LD, it is a very interesting and very good for motivation.


Sorry for spamming with several short posts. There is a reoccurring forum bug that only allows for a limited number of characters, and I didn't have the patience to wait for that to be fixed.

try the "source" button it will allow you to get rid of that bug i think

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 9:28 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
I think that if you familiarize yourself more with how people tend to work here at DhO, you'll find that people are much more experimental than you give them credit for. That's something that I really appreciate at this forum.

I'll think about being part of the project. I haven't quite decided my priorities. I appreciate the tip.

I did check the source button. That's always the first thing I try. This is something that has happened before. I recognize the bug. For some reason, it pops up sometimes until something is fixed.

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 10:42 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.

I think that if you familiarize yourself more with how people tend to work here at DhO, you'll find that people are much more experimental than you give them credit for.
Sorry for the "lack of credit" , well, let's wait and see then ;-)

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/8/20 1:01 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Of course, I may have misread you. Regardless, I meant no disrespect. I just had the sense that some differences in language use might have given you the wrong impression. Anyway, there is probably a huge variety of approaches here, so there are most likely some traditional people here too, but that's not in any way defining this place. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I think that if you want to talk about experimental stuff, there are probably many people here who would be interested, me included. emoticon

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/9/20 2:08 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:

I think that if you familiarize yourself more with how people tend to work here at DhO, you'll find that people are much more experimental than you give them credit for.
Sorry for the "lack of credit" , well, let's wait and see then ;-)
You're a scientist, Fabrice. That's wonderful: just the facts, ma'am (this is from an old American TV show, a hard-boiled LA cop named Joe Friday who was doggedly empirical in his investigations, so winderfully that that line of his has become a boad cultural marker/meme of its own. 

Ironically enough:
Joe Friday's character frequently used the phrase, "all we want are the facts, ma’am” (and sometimes “All we know are the facts ma’am”)
when questioning women in the course of police investigations. Freberg’s “Little Blue Riding Hood” spoof changed the line slightly, and it was Freberg’s alteration — rather than anything Joe Friday said — that would enter the roll of immortal catch phrases:

Little Blue Riding Hood:   Why Grandma,what big ears you’ve got!

Sgt. Wednesday:   All the better to get the facts. I just want to get the facts, ma’am.

Webb biographer Michael J.Hayde described the transition:As this exchangeentered the American subconscious, it soon found itself truncated to “Just thefacts, ma’am” From that point on, every Webb interview, every newspaper andmagazine article that had anything to do with Dragnet madeuse of the phrase. For the next year it so dominated media coverage of the showthat finally, inevitably, the line was credited to Sgt. Friday, as if he’d beensaying it all along. His actual phrase — “All we want (or “know”) are thefacts, ma’am” — bit the dust.
It takes time to get the facts, as you well know. And patience, and long-suffering, and all the virtues of just plain hanging in there against long odds.

Fortunately there's no hurry to force the facts to reveal themselves faster than the pace of the investigation and the generosity of the truh itself allows. We have forever, or until we die, whichever comes first. The way our asses are hanging unroped over this icy cliff edge and a five thouand foot fall, makes it even easier. Survive the moment's fact, is plenty, for the likes of us.

love, tim

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/9/20 7:49 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Interesting story Tim,  i didn't know it ( not much American subconscious in my mind ;-)

Sure i am the kind of guy who will always come back to "the facts" but in matter of psychics( spiritual , whatever)   experience , i know that facts cannot be absolute and cannot be always the best way, at least when you start to investigate

Lets say that if  a scientist will rely on 95%  of facts and 5% of "stories", in psychic matter i have to strive for greater flexibility, facts, knowledge are enfolded in ignorance ( at worst), interesting stories ( at best) and it is normal because we are dealing with very old feed back from other ages people, they gave local map, inner map and if i don't follow it,  at least for a while i will miss the point because there will be no point at all, doesn't mean that i have to stick to their map, i soon as i discover part of the territory i must come back to the fact or i will loose myself in their stories.

For instance when i went on exploration for the so called arupa jhanas, i realized quickly that i was dealing with very mental stuff, it was useless trying to find  any infinite space or infinite consciousness, emptiness, whatever,  so what could i do? the scientist approach would be something like no matter how i try it doesn't show up therefore it doesn't exist and that will be it. A more subtle approach was like it doesn't show up but let's do "like if", let's "believe" in it, let's be like an actor who will follow the script, so i try again an  again and realized that indeed , those "realm" did not exist but what did exist was a deepening of jhana state and those arupa jhana stories were a way to go for it, so now i  know i can change the script or keep it as it is, it doesn't matter because what matter is  to deepen jhana state and this is basically what i do.

Of course this is personal, i don't pretend that you have to get rid of stories, Buddhists script or else, if one enjoy it, believe in it , fine!
my way is to follow the script, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is is specifically mine...

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 8:59 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
I don't think looking for the qualities of the formless realms is a very helpful approach for finding them. They tend to unfold on their own when you let go of other qualities in a specific sequence, if the pull is strong enough. For me it was when I switched from the breath as an object to the nada sound to get from the first three jhanas to the fourth. I let go of the tactile energetic sensations, and they all transformed into sound. The more I focused on the sound, the more the sound was distilled into bright light, until there was only bright light everywhere, endless bright light. Then I let go of space, and I was the bright light, and the bright light was awareness, and the notion of brighness lost its meaning because there was nothing other than awareness. There was no brightness and no darkness. Then the nothing in that experience was all that was there, because as there was nothing there to be aware of, the notion of awareness slipped away too, although it was of course still there in some sense because the nothingness was aware. Then the nothingness dropped away too, because there was nobody there to experience it, sort of. I remember very vividly that the nothingness went away, which probably sounds like total bullshit for someone who hasn't experienced it, but it really did - subjectively, that is - and it was a clear demarcated shift. 

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 9:05 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I believe all jhanas are emergent properties of specific mental conditions. You can intentionally call them up if you can manage to develop those conditions. Without an intuitive understanding of how to do that, you won't be able to summon them up. And by "intuitive understanding" I mean having fallen into them enough to grok how to get back. Is it possible to get into jhanas by accident? Why yes, it certainly is. But like a lot of the stuff we encounter along this path, we can better create the conditions for success through intentional practice.

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 9:08 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Sure, but in order to do so, we may need to find them first. It seemed to me that Fabrice hadn't found those specific qualities and doubted their existence. Did I misread that?

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 9:12 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Interesting experience, my question would be : did this ( the all sequence ) happens anytime you go for it? i mean everyday or at least week, you reach that state and here we go you can experience quite the same or similar experience( sound, brightness and on...), can you develop the same pattern, study it, reproduce it at will ?

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 9:16 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
... but in order to do so, we may need to find them first...

Um, that's what I said. 

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 9:24 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Sure, but in order to do so, we may need to find them first.
First we need to agree about what do we find, is the sequence describe by Linda the "jhana standard" that every jhana practioner can describe about the same ( sound, brightness and on ) or is it a very personal experience that  she thinks/believes i am in those jhanas ?

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 9:30 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Jhanas are indeed personal experiences but practitioners who encounter them will typically describe them in similar ways. Those descriptions may not make much sense to someone who doesn't have the experience of jhana, however. I would liken this to having a friend try a new drink made with a fruit that you have never tasted, and didn't know existed. If that friend tries to explain that new, unknown to you taste it won't make much sense until you taste the drink for yourself.

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 9:48 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.

If that friend tries to explain that new, unknown to you taste it won't make much sense until you taste the drink for yourself.
Problem is we can't be sure about that drink, we would like to think that for instance Linda and you drink the same fruit  but it is not possible , we all drink different juice.
Let  me put it another way
Every morning i have a long meditation and this is  the time where i enter jhanas on a everyday basis, i had plenty of experiences like 
" there was only bright light everywhere" or " there was nothing other than awareness." or "Then the nothingness dropped away too, because there was nobody there to experience it"  so i quite know what she is talking about , this is usually when i "follow the script"  and it doesn't means that i experience something called infinite space/awareness/emptiness , sometimes i don't follow the script, i just focus on deepening jhanas ( this can be done by iteration , at least it is the best technique i know) and i have discovered places like infinite love or infinite peacefulness and they are as real than the others ( don't worry i won't ask  copyright if you discover it as well :-))

so what are we experiencing exactly ?

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:03 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Problem is we can't be sure about that drink, we would like to think that for instance Linda and you drink the same fruit  but it is not possible , we all drink different juice.

...

so what are we experiencing exactly ?


We can't ever know from our experience how any other human being actually experiences anything. Yet we can agree that blue looks like blue, and coke tastes like coke, and so on, and we agree on all of those experiences by convention and from personal experience. So when you say, "We all drink different juice" that kinda flies in the face of that, doesn't it? Are you saying being in jhana is not an experience?



RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:16 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
A coke is a coke and blue is blue because i can show or give it to you, so we can reproduce almost this exact experience of color or taste but i cannot give you  J1 or J2 or else, there is not real/absolute common ground for it even though we can agree on common aspect ( qualities ) when we go through those kind of experience but  there is also personal aspect that some will experience some won't and this is what i mean by we all drink different juice in matter of psychics experiences
And of course jhana is an experience (  of altered state of consciousness ,  can't see why you ask that  ).

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:21 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
Interesting experience, my question would be : did this ( the all sequence ) happens anytime you go for it? i mean everyday or at least week, you reach that state and here we go you can experience quite the same or similar experience( sound, brightness and on...), can you develop the same pattern, study it, reproduce it at will ?

No, because my concentration varies with regard to the cycling of the nanas. I don't have constant access to fourth jhana. However, formlessness of some sort tends to pop up when I sleep and wake me up. Those episodes tend to have more of a zhiné touch to them than a shamatha aspect, though. It's hard to find words to describe the difference, but there is one. I think of shamatha as more clearcut pure focus whereas zhiné is more dynamic and open to whatever appears, but that's an intellectual understanding and I'm not sure it's correct. I think that I would need to go through the fourth jhana and follow the sequential unfolding to get that very exact and clearcut version with absolutely no traces of anything else in it.

At the time this happened, it was repeated in the exact same way more times than I could count. The pull was extremely strong. It was just impossible to turn to the nada sound without having the sequence unfold, and it was very difficult not to turn to the nada sound. In order to get at least some sleep I eventually grabbed my ipad as soon as I could and turned on netflix before I was drawn back to the nada sound. I'm not sure that kind of strong pull will ever happen again. It may have been a quirk of the territory I was in at that specific point in time. 

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:22 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... but in order to do so, we may need to find them first...

Um, that's what I said. 

Okay, good. I was hoping that we were in agreement but I thought that maybe you thought that I had said something different from that since you replied to my post. 

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:37 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
That's a very personal experience you have at night, can i ask you what is the nada sound?

i never had anything similar even though my nights are busy because of LD practice , it just remains me some kind of hypngogic state where i can hear sound very loudly ,they come from the dream and they are a good way of getting inside a LD if you know how to follow them but it probably has nothing to do with your kind of experience...

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:37 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
A coke is a coke and blue is blue because i can show or give it to you, so we can reproduce almost this exact experience of color or taste but i cannot give you  J1 or J2 or else, there is not real/absolute common ground for it even though we can agree on common aspect ( qualities ) when we go through those kind of experience but  there is also personal aspect that some will experience some won't and this is what i mean by we all drink different juice in matter of psychics experiences.

Are you aware that what you're saying negates all dharma? All of the dharma relates to subjective experience. If what you're saying is true there is nothing about the experiences on the Buddhist path that can be "shared" according to your reasoning. It's not just the jhanas, but any mind experience - which by the way, is everything.

Why are you making this argument?







RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:45 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
It sounded to me from your own experience that you didn't know what to look for and hadn't come across anything that distinct. That's why I thought it might be helpful to hear from others how they have found that distinct something that stands out from all previous intellectual understandings of what it might be like. If it isn't helpful, you are of course welcome to just ignore it. If you are content with your own approach as it is, then by all means, go with that. I have no doubt that all experience, including the jhanas, are constructed and therefore not exactly the same for all individuals. At the same time, within our partly shared construction of a partly shared reality, there seems to be sufficient empirical evidence to the existence of enough of a common ground about the typical jhanas for it to be meaningful to talk about, for those who are interested.

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:47 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
The nada sound is the specific sound that is the silence. It can be like a multitude of crickets, like white noice if you zoom out, and can be divided into separate tones if you zoom in. 

I know what hypnagogic states are like and that was not it. 

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Are you aware that what you're saying negates all dharma?

ah, ah, funny guy... makes me feel like some sort of apostat, which of course doesn't trouble me at all :-)

What can i say , i think you are getting me all wrong and do not understand or try to understand a word about what i am saying, well no problem , let's forget that talk dear...

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 10:54 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
As for the question of how we can know that I had those experiences: quite frankly, whether or not you believe that I had the experience of those jhanas is not that relevant for me. I know that it was something far more distinct than I could have ever imagined before experiencing it. When you say that you don't think that there is something as distinct as that, to me this reads as "There are more goodies in the goodie bag left for Fabrice to find should he wish to". You are of course free to think that's just utter bullshit. Go with what is useful and meaningful for you.  That pertains to the dharma as well. Practicing it is optional. It is possible to find out for oneself empirically if one wishes to. 

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 11:00 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Before you walk away, can you at least answer my last question - why is this important to you? I don't think you understand what I've said either, and the way through any misunderstanding is to keep talking, which I'm willing to do.

How about this, and here I'm thinking we can start over in this spot - why is jhana different from any other mind object or experience?

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 11:04 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.

At the same time, within our partly shared construction of a partly shared reality, there seems to be sufficient empirical evidence to the existence of enough of a common ground about the typical jhanas for it to be meaningful to talk about, for those who are interested.
but this is about what i am saying or try to say !
 except that i don't believe that jhanas are limited to buddhist description and that we should investigate further those experience, what i am saying is that you can't trust the Buddhists map of jhana as they are, not because Buddha were talking bullshit but because it is evident there we are lacking a huge amount of information with what we know  and that we should not try to stick to the limited-sacred-description but try to go further in the field of experiment, as far as we can ... like scientist would do.

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 11:08 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
.. except that i don't believe that jhanas are limited to buddhist description and that we should investigate further those experience, what i am saying is that you can't trust the Buddhists map of jhana as they are, not because Buddha were talking bullshit but because it is evident there we are lacking a huge amount of information with what we know  and that we should not try to stick to the limited-sacred-description but try to go further in the field of experiment...

This makes sense to me now. Sorry to have misunderstood you. 






RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 11:14 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Before you walk away, can you at least answer my last question - why is this important to you?
I don't think you understand what I've said either, and the way through
any misunderstanding is to keep talking, which I'm willing to do.
well the answer to Linda will do the job , no?

and i don't walk away either.
why is jhana different from any other mind object or experience?
It is not only jhanas, it is most of , let's say psychics experience, they tend to have more personal than common ground, i can see that very often in lucid dream, how people live or react to experiment, it is very personnal, common ground is an illusion or let say there are common aspect  on which we can agree but this is only part of the individual experiment.

which is not the case when we drink a coke or let say that a huge amount of the coke experiment will have common ground

i don't know how to be more precise...

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 11:35 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
I think you are under-appreciating our ability to share the nature of mental experiences. And I would urge you to avoid the term "psychic" as it has other meanings, which is one of the reasons I was totally confused about what you're saying.

When I said you were negating all of the dharma, I meant that all of the dharma is based on our collective ability to describe shared mental experiences, and if we can't do that reliably then the dharma isn't all that transferable from person to person in written or verbal forms. My experience is that the dharma is transferable based on descriptions of the phenomena upon which it is based, and the methods that it uses.

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 11:54 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.

and if we can't do that reliably then the dharma isn't all that transferable from person to person in written or verbal forms. My experience is that the dharma is transferable based on descriptions of the phenomena upon which it is based, and the methods that it uses.
Not sure to really get what you mean by dharma, so it would be better to use a more common word.
And no , all experiences are not transferable, they are  eventually describable  but we can't expect everybody to get through the same kind of experience , specially mental experiences ( whatever you call it ) , if you expect everybody to get through the same kind of experience, you will narrow the field of experiment and even worst with experience where we have very few and limited reliable informations ( like about jhanas)

that's the way i see it and if you don't, fine , it doesn't matter, my personal background will always push me not to "follow the line" but i of course i don't expect everybody to do the same.

RE: Mind made body
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5/9/20 11:52 PM as a reply to Edward Prunesquallor.
Edward Prunesquallor:
It's pretty obvious from that sutta that he is not talking about lucid dreaming or a dream body.

Is anything close to sleeping and then waking up and rolling out of the body mentioned anywhere in that sutta?
"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Purana Kassapa answered with non-action. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango: In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Purana Kassapa answered with non-action. The thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a brahman or contemplative living in his realm?' Yet I neither delighted in Purana Kassapa's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.

"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Makkhali Gosala answered with purification through wandering-on. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango. In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Makkhali Gosala answered with purification through wandering-on. The thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a brahman or contemplative living in his realm?' Yet I neither delighted in Makkhali Gosala's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.

"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Ajita Kesakambalin answered with annihilation. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango. In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Ajita Kesakambalin answered with annihilation. The thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a brahman or contemplative living in his realm?' Yet I neither delighted in Ajita Kesakambalin's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.

"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Pakudha Kaccayana answered with non-relatedness. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango. In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Pakudha Kaccayana answered with non-relatedness. The thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a brahman or contemplative living in his realm?' Yet I neither delighted in Pakudha Kaccayana's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.

"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Nigantha Nataputta answered with fourfold restraint. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango: In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Nigantha Nataputta answered with fourfold restraint. The thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a brahman or contemplative living in his realm?' Yet I neither delighted in Nigantha Nataputta's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.

"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Sañjaya Belatthaputta answered with evasion. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango: In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Sañjaya Belatthaputta answered with evasion. The thought occurred to me: 'This — among these brahmans and contemplatives — is the most foolish and confused of all. How can he, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, answer with evasion?' Still the thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a brahman or contemplative living in his realm?' Yet I neither delighted in Sañjaya Belatthaputta's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.

"So, lord, I ask the Blessed One as well: There are these common craftsmen: elephant-trainers, horse-trainers, charioteers, archers, standard bearers, camp marshals, supply corps officers, high royal officers, commandos, military heroes, armor-clad warriors, leather-clad warriors, domestic slaves, confectioners, barbers, bath attendants, cooks, garland-makers, laundrymen, weavers, basket-makers, potters, calculators, accountants, and any other common craftsmen of a similar sort. They live off the fruits of their crafts, visible in the here and now. They give pleasure and refreshment to themselves, to their parents, wives, and children, to their friends and colleagues. They put in place an excellent presentation of offerings to brahmans and contemplatives, leading to heaven, resulting in happiness, conducive to a heavenly rebirth. Is it possible, lord, to point out a similar fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?"
"Yes, it is, great king. But first, with regard to that, I will ask you a counter-question. Answer however you please. Suppose there were a man of yours: your slave, your workman, rising in the morning before you, going to bed in the evening only after you, doing whatever you order, always acting to please you, speaking politely to you, always watching for the look on your face. The thought would occur to him: 'Isn't it amazing? Isn't it astounding? — the destination, the results, of meritorious deeds. For this King Ajatasattu is a human being, and I, too, am a human being, yet King Ajatasattu enjoys himself supplied and replete with the five strings of sensuality — like a deva, as it were — while I am his slave, his workman... always watching for the look on his face. I, too, should do meritorious deeds. What if I were to shave off my hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?'"So after some time he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude. Then suppose one of your men were to inform you: 'You should know, your majesty, that that man of yours — your slave, your workman... always watching for the look on your face... has gone forth from the household life into homelessness... content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.' Would you, thus informed, say, 'Bring that man back to me. Make him again be my slave, my workman... always watching for the look on my face!'?""Not at all, lord. Rather, I am the one who should bow down to him, rise up out of respect for him, invite him to a seat, invite him to accept gifts of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicinal requisites for the sick. And I would provide him with righteous safety, defense, and protection.""So what do you think, great king. With that being the case, is there a visible fruit of the contemplative life, or is there not?""Yes, lord. With that being the case, there certainly is a visible fruit of the contemplative life.""This, great king, is the first fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now, that I point out to you."

So if, O Noble Prunesquallor, Fabrice Tom, upon waking in his sleep, were to set to rolling out of the body, and found this so without dissatisfaction that he were to shave off his hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness, and, having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude? Would this not, O Prunesquallor Mahacitti, thus be a fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 6:43 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
ah, ah, ah,  well i already have shave off my  hair and beard, so it is a good start ;-)

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 7:47 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Tonight i had an experience that could relate a little to what i am looking for as a matter of mixing between jhana and LD, i wil try to describe it as simple as possible.

i couldn't do my wake back to bed at 4 AM because of an headache but i finally get up, took a pill and decide to go for a short meditation, it took me at least half and hour to feel my head better, i thought i could not do much for this night and that was fine but i kept going into the meditation until i went in a very pleasant state , not the way i usually do , more like Ajahn Brahm describe what he calls the " beautiful breath" , i was so absorbed in my breath that i could fell almost every millisecond of it , it reminded me a time were i was sailing a boat in terrible weather in the Mediterranean sea, it was night time wind gone up dramatically, more then 40 knots, i was going down an up waves on a very dangerous sailing but after 1 hour of fight , there was no more waves, wind , boat , sailing, just a perfect feeling of every millisecond up and down the waves , strangely and  similarly tonight i was climbing up and down the breath, no thought could catch me anymore. Eventually after 1h40 mns i decided to go back to bed for an hour, just to have a short sleep before my morning meditation.

i lied on my side like i usually do and naturally went back to the breath until i reached a state almost as pleasant as the beautiful breath, hypnagogia came very quickly but there was no way i could sleep and there was no way i could catch hypnagogia ( technically they were too short ), eventually i went on very brief period of sleep like seconds but without really loosing consciousness and quickly back to hypnagogia.

In that case i have a plan B, i can try to separate using special "cycling technique" but it has to be fast like : get up! and it has to be more like during short awakening, anyway without doing anything i realized that my dream body was moving  a little , i felt the separation and go on very slowly , i was getting up on my bed in my dream body in a very slow motion and in the same time a was feeling my real body lying , that was probably too slow, my dream body went back to my body like an elastic. I focus on the breath again and tried again 10 mns later, slowly but not too slow , it worked perfectly and i get up in a dark room, i shortly run and fall into an absolute void, a very pleasant state that i usually know even though it is  always different and always surprise me, this time it was like falling in very thin sand that surrended me from everywhere, it was remarkably stable, i knew instinctively that i wouldn't wake up even if i wanted to, so i enjoyed the void and finally it end up in a lucid dream ( doesn't matter what happened next)

this morning i had some deep meditation and eventually manage to reproduce the feeling i had in bed, i did not separate but did feel some " physical loosening" that could lead to a separation one day, so despite a bad start, it was a good working night :-)

PS:

Would this not, O Prunesquallor Mahacitti, thus be a fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 9:51 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
... you will narrow the field of experiment and even worst with experience where we have very few and limited reliable informations ( like about jhanas)...

Just to point you in a somewhat different direction, and as a final comment - there are hundreds of books that have been written about jhanas. There are scores and scores of posts and articles on DhO about jhanas. Have you read any of those resources?

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 11:05 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
As far as i can see, there is not "hundreds of books" that have been written about jhanas, there is a few books and i've read most  of them if not all of them plus  every scholars studies i could find which are related to it.
Most of what have been written come mainly  from the same sources: sutapitaka and visudimagha and this not a lot of information, just a few information that tend to be repeated again and again.
Most  of modern practitioner that have written about jhana have a tendency to "follow the scrip"  whether is is the sutapitaka or visudimagha
at the exception perhaps of Leigh Brasington which try to give a more open view about jhanas.

It remind me a book about Dzogchen that i read recently, the author was announcing proudly that this is a tradition where endless generations of monks have repeated the same experiments for hundreds of years and this is exactlly what i don't want to do.

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 11:17 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
It remind me a book about Dzogchen that i read recently, the author was announcing proudly that this is a tradition where endless generations of monks have repeated the same experiments for hundreds of years and this is exactlly what i don't want to do.

Best of luck! Most of us here just want to do what works. You know - pragmatic dharma. 

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 11:27 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Hi Hector
i don't have any experience in Kasina practice so i could hardly talk about it but i don't think that kasina practice  can be related to lucid dream or hypnagogia , hypnagogia is a liminal state very much related to dream, in fact it is dream making in progress so i can hardly see any way of doing a connexion with kasina practice but as i said i can't answer without practice.
About sound anything i've tried related to LD mainly via hemi synch stuff ( i even done a workshop LD/hemisynch  with the Monroe institute ) has been a complete failure so i do not rely on it anymore.

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 11:29 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Best of luck! Most of us here just want to do what works. You know - pragmatic dharma. 
And that is perfectly fine for me, best of luck for everyone ;-)

RE: Mind made body
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5/10/20 2:10 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
Some time ago Neko mentioned this possibility and you can find some tips on progression and phases to master below. I've started working with it earlier this year and think it'super fun for people who get clear nimittas to draw images from or strong hypnagogia. Curious what you think, what you do and what other sources for inspiration you use.  I can't post longer texts somehow, so here is the link:  https://old.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/comments/a1ma0v/fire_kasina/

RE: Mind made body
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5/11/20 3:43 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
Tonight i had an experience that could relate a little to what i am looking for as a matter of mixing between jhana and LD, i wil try to describe it as simple as possible.

i couldn't do my wake back to bed at 4 AM because of an headache but i finally get up, took a pill and decide to go for a short meditation, it took me at least half and hour to feel my head better, i thought i could not do much for this night and that was fine but i kept going into the meditation until i went in a very pleasant state , not the way i usually do , more like Ajahn Brahm describe what he calls the " beautiful breath" , i was so absorbed in my breath that i could fell almost every millisecond of it , it reminded me a time were i was sailing a boat in terrible weather in the Mediterranean sea, it was night time wind gone up dramatically, more then 40 knots, i was going down an up waves on a very dangerous sailing but after 1 hour of fight , there was no more waves, wind , boat , sailing, just a perfect feeling of every millisecond up and down the waves , strangely and  similarly tonight i was climbing up and down the breath, no thought could catch me anymore. Eventually after 1h40 mns i decided to go back to bed for an hour, just to have a short sleep before my morning meditation.

i lied on my side like i usually do and naturally went back to the breath until i reached a state almost as pleasant as the beautiful breath, hypnagogia came very quickly but there was no way i could sleep and there was no way i could catch hypnagogia ( technically they were too short ), eventually i went on very brief period of sleep like seconds but without really loosing consciousness and quickly back to hypnagogia.

In that case i have a plan B, i can try to separate using special "cycling technique" but it has to be fast like : get up! and it has to be more like during short awakening, anyway without doing anything i realized that my dream body was moving  a little , i felt the separation and go on very slowly , i was getting up on my bed in my dream body in a very slow motion and in the same time a was feeling my real body lying , that was probably too slow, my dream body went back to my body like an elastic. I focus on the breath again and tried again 10 mns later, slowly but not too slow , it worked perfectly and i get up in a dark room, i shortly run and fall into an absolute void, a very pleasant state that i usually know even though it is  always different and always surprise me, this time it was like falling in very thin sand that surrended me from everywhere, it was remarkably stable, i knew instinctively that i wouldn't wake up even if i wanted to, so i enjoyed the void and finally it end up in a lucid dream ( doesn't matter what happened next)

this morning i had some deep meditation and eventually manage to reproduce the feeling i had in bed, i did not separate but did feel some " physical loosening" that could lead to a separation one day, so despite a bad start, it was a good working night :-)

PS:

Would this not, O Prunesquallor Mahacitti, thus be a fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?

great report.
. . .more like Ajahn Brahm describe what he calls the " beautiful breath" , i was so absorbed in my breath that i could fell almost every millisecond of it , it reminded me a time were i was sailing a boat in terrible weather in the Mediterranean sea, it was night time wind gone up dramatically, more then 40 knots, i was going down an up waves on a very dangerous sailing but after 1 hour of fight , there was no more waves, wind , boat , sailing, just a perfect feeling of every millisecond up and down the waves , strangely and  similarly tonight i was climbing up and down the breath, no thought could catch me anymore.

Lovely imagery on one of the gentlest and most potent experiences i know, the "beautiful breath." Simple clear. I think that you could use this as a base of operations, as it were, for your own researches and interests: home base. Stable, free of crap, free of ambition: the sky is the limit from here, and the bottom of the sea, and your imagination, and, even where imagination runs out into the sand, the possibility of discerning subtler currents and directions in the fresh untracked desert beyond. meanwhile, the state itself is simply rejuvenative at worst, and actively sheds crap like a duck sheds water. At best, there are those content to believe it one of the finest summits and best views one comes to on the path.
without doing anything i realized that my dream body was moving  a little , i felt the separation and go on very slowly , i was getting up on my bed in my dream body in a very slow motion and in the same time a was feeling my real body lying , that was probably too slow, my dream body went back to my body like an elastic. I focus on the breath again and tried again 10 mns later, slowly but not too slow , it worked perfectly and i get up in a dark room, i shortly run and fall into an absolute void, a very pleasant state that i usually know even though it is  always different and always surprise me, this time it was like falling in very thin sand that surrended me from everywhere, it was remarkably stable, i knew instinctively  that i wouldn't wake up even if i wanted to, so i enjoyed the void and finally it end up in a lucid dream ( doesn't matter what happened next)
in my understanding of what you have wanted to do, and why you invited dialogue here on DhO in the first place, this is pretty close to what you were hoping for, isn't it? Enjoying the void is jhana par excellence, in my limited understanding, and you got there in lucid sleep, and took off from there into a lucid dream adventure. Wasn't that an item on your to-do list? Check, yes?

love, tim

RE: Mind made body
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5/11/20 4:35 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
+1 with Tim,
Thanks for sharing, Fabrice, it is precious...
Long live the explorers of the outer realms!

with metta
smiling stone

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/11/20 4:38 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
 i am probably the guy most specialized in void state which means that i often end up in a LD without dream elements, i have a dream body though but the space is empty , i can walk, run, fly in an almost pure void, sometimes it's windy sometimes not.
This reminds me of a movie "Lucy", where *** SPOILER ALERT *** the main character undergoes an evolution of consciousness due to ingesting some sort of God-Pill. She becomes everything, everywhere and everytime. When they picture "timelessness" she is shown sitting on a chair with prehistoric scenes flashing behind her.
 
I am of course in no position to diagnose anyone, but it occured to me that the script writer treats the fameous spiritual "becoming one" very literally. As if it was Lucy, her small biographical psychological embodied self, who was to become one with all. Instead of discovering that not only the world but also her body and human psyche is simply one of the formed phenomena dreamt by one formless consciousness, straight from this consciousness' empty source. In the climax of the union with the universe, Lucy's body dissapears. But her dress stays on the chair. That is very interesting :-))). Of course, it's not the dress that became one with the universe - but her fingernails, liver, limbs, hair and whole naked body did ;-).  ***END***

RE: Mind made body
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5/11/20 4:44 AM as a reply to hae1en.
hae1en:
fabrice tom:
 i am probably the guy most specialized in void state which means that i often end up in a LD without dream elements, i have a dream body though but the space is empty , i can walk, run, fly in an almost pure void, sometimes it's windy sometimes not.
This reminds me of a movie "Lucy", where *** SPOILER ALERT *** the main character undergoes an evolution of consciousness due to ingesting some sort of God-Pill. She becomes everything, everywhere and everytime. When they picture "timelessness" she is shown sitting on a chair with prehistoric scenes flashing behind her.
 
I am of course in no position to diagnose anyone, but it occured to me that the script writer treats the fameous spiritual "becoming one" very literally. As if it was Lucy, her small biographical psychological embodied self, who was to become one with all. Instead of discovering that not only the world but also her body and human psyche is simply one of the formed phenomena dreamt by one formless consciousness, straight from this consciousness' empty source. In the climax of the union with the universe, Lucy's body dissapears. But her dress stays on the chair. That is very interesting :-))). Of course, it's not the dress that became one with the universe - but her fingernails, liver, limbs, hair and whole naked body did ;-).  ***END***

+1 with this, hae1en (i just learned "+1" from Smling Stone, above, and had to take it out for a spin.)

I think you have failed to plumb the screen writer's Bodhisattvic depths. The dress on the chair was ALWAYS one with the universe. It is sentient beings who must do the real work here, on the return (trans-, not pre-, as Wilber has it) to consciousness of that oneness.

RE: Mind made body
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5/11/20 4:46 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:

At the same time, within our partly shared construction of a partly shared reality, there seems to be sufficient empirical evidence to the existence of enough of a common ground about the typical jhanas for it to be meaningful to talk about, for those who are interested.
but this is about what i am saying or try to say !
 except that i don't believe that jhanas are limited to buddhist description and that we should investigate further those experience, what i am saying is that you can't trust the Buddhists map of jhana as they are, not because Buddha were talking bullshit but because it is evident there we are lacking a huge amount of information with what we know  and that we should not try to stick to the limited-sacred-description but try to go further in the field of experiment, as far as we can ... like scientist would do.

I agree with that, and so does Daniel whose book this forum is organized around. Using stipulative definitions has nothing to do with limitating oneself. It's all about clarity. Some jhanas seem to more universal than others among practicioners, and therefore some shared landmarks can be valuable for those who are interested in sharing the experience of them. If you have no interest in those specific jhanas, that's okay. I do, and that's okay too. I can explore both traditional jhanas and more experimental versions. There is no contradiction there. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/11/20 4:46 AM as a reply to hae1en.
fabrice tom
 i am probably the guy most specialized in void state which means that i often end up in a LD without dream elements, i have a dream body though but the space is empty , i can walk, run, fly in an almost pure void, sometimes it's windy sometimes not.

In dream yoga the adept trains not only in recognizing the illusory nature of the whole universe, but also of his own self, starting with his
identification with the body. I think you wrote about it somewhere, but to check the depth of this identification there are tasks to be performed in lucid dreams. Going through the walls, shape shifting (morphing into a tiger or a deity etc.), taking the whole dream landscape as your own body. And also resting without any formed support in your spacious formless awareness (taking luminosity as a subtle support first). I assume you have done some of these exercises. But do you think there is a reason your mind keeps recreating your human "mind made body" even when in "void"?

RE: Mind made body
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5/11/20 5:06 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
As far as i can see, there is not "hundreds of books" that have been written about jhanas, there is a few books and i've read most  of them if not all of them plus  every scholars studies i could find which are related to it.
Most of what have been written come mainly  from the same sources: sutapitaka and visudimagha and this not a lot of information, just a few information that tend to be repeated again and again.
Most  of modern practitioner that have written about jhana have a tendency to "follow the scrip"  whether is is the sutapitaka or visudimagha
at the exception perhaps of Leigh Brasington which try to give a more open view about jhanas.

It remind me a book about Dzogchen that i read recently, the author was announcing proudly that this is a tradition where endless generations of monks have repeated the same experiments for hundreds of years and this is exactlly what i don't want to do.

To me this sounds like insisting on using square-shaped wheels instead of round ones just because it's limiting to do what everybody else does. emoticon  I prefer using the round ones to get the ride going and then experimenting from there. It's not like I have to use the same wheels forever. Once the speed is there, I can take off and fly if I wish. 

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/11/20 7:59 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Lovely imagery on one of the gentlest and most potent experiences i know, the "beautiful breath." Simple clear. I think that you could use this as a base of operations, as it were, for your own researches and interests: home base. Stable, free of crap, free of ambition: the sky is the limit from here, and the bottom of the sea, and your imagination, and, even where imagination runs out into the sand, the possibility of discerning subtler currents and directions in the fresh untracked desert beyond. meanwhile, the state itself is simply rejuvenative at worst, and actively sheds crap like a duck sheds water. At best, there are those content to believe it one of the finest summits and best views one comes to on the path.
This "souvenir" at this particular moment  is exactly what i call insight , personal deep insight that helps  to understand a process you are going through, those kind of insight are very  "auto-symbolic" which means that they are related to the one who live the experiment because he knows exactly what was going on at that particular moment at any level ( physical, mental, etc)  and gives him a very accurate way to recognize that moment as far as knowledge can go.

in my understanding of what you have wanted to do, and why you invited dialogue here on DhO in the first place, this is pretty close to what you were hoping for, isn't it? Enjoying the void is jhana par excellence, in my limited understanding, and you got there in lucid sleep, and took off from there into a lucid dream adventure. Wasn't that an item on your to-do list? Check, yes?
It is progress but  my idea is that it should be possible to do that separation in a seated meditation but the good thing is that the separation did occurs whithout any LD technique, almost naturally , which in fact has nothing
much natural if i consider how hard and how long i 've been training, how many times i did use techniques in a more LD conventionel way,  so many try, so many separation, so many fail too ... but this is how progress works isn't it?  try again and again and again in any possible ways .
In dream yoga the adept trains not only in recognizing the illusory
nature of the whole universe, but also of his own self, starting with
his
identification with the body. I think you wrote about it
somewhere, but to check the depth of this identification there are tasks
to be performed in lucid dreams. Going through the walls, shape
shifting (morphing into a tiger or a deity etc.), taking the whole dream
landscape as your own body. And also resting without any formed support
in your spacious formless awareness (taking luminosity as a subtle
support first). I assume you have done some of these exercises. But do you think there is a reason your mind keeps recreating your human "mind made body" even when in "void"?
Yes i did countless experiments but one has to know that you don't exactly get into this ( dream) world and do what you want to do, it is quite a bizarre world and your mood/state of mind/lucidity  can be very different when you get there, this is not a place that you can  control even when you have built experience, you can't expect that you will do what you want to do.

For instance when i say that i am the void man ( related to the french LD forum LDreamers) it is not that i've choose to do so, it is just that i found myself in countless void situation without knowing  why this was happening to me even though the void state always happens to LDreamer  from time to time, usually it is a very unstable state, which means that you might wake up quickly but not for me , it is one of the most stable dream state  i know, i can fly there , do geometric figures and on and on , why ? i don't know but at least i do  apreciate it and do not try anymore to runaway from it and that took me some time.

Why is the mind recreating ?
This i have a more precise answer built on my own experience but also in many LD experiences from lot's of LDreamer i know.
It seems that in that state one will very often feel much younger, sometimes you can see you in a mirror and see you younger  too and this feeling happens to many LDreamers, i am about 50 years old but when i am in a LD  i always feel in my 20's not because i just want to "get young and crazy in memory of those good old days! " but because it just happens that way and it took me  time to understand it , i remember when sometimes i had more or less serious experiment to run  out there and many time i just couldn't follow the script because of that inner youth feeling that catch me when i get there, eventually i realize it and it help me to perform more efficiently in a LD, there is a sort of "youth inner energy" that goes with the trip and i am not the only one to say so and frankly who will complain?  ;-)

RE: Mind made body
Answer
5/11/20 9:00 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
To me this sounds like insisting on using square-shaped wheels instead of round ones just because it's limiting to do what everybody else does.
Then you get me wrong.

I prefer using the round ones to get the ride going and then experimenting from there. It's not like I have to use the same wheels forever. Once the speed is there, I can take off and fly if I wish.

It is what i meant  when i said :
absorb what is useful, reject what is useless  and add what is is specifically your...