I assume this is the 4th jhana, but I've never been too certain beyond the 2nd jhana.

Sometimes,
while lying in bed, I decided to get up. I had the sensations that my
body was sitting up. Then I realized that my real body was still lying
in bed, and I popped out of the LD state, back to the threshold

maybe i have lerned to avoid dullness too well

Hi Agnostic

LD techniques , i mean real techniques which are all wild techniques are very demanding , so if your motivation is not strong, it cannot work.
If your are meditating at night, let's say after 3 sleep cycles then it worth give it a try because wbtb is a very important step and many people don't want to wake up in the midle of the night.
My motivation ? well, for personal reasons was huge, well above average i would say, then i started to wbtb and meditate every night, now i don't need anymore motivation i just do it naturally, that is why after developping all sort of wild techniques i now focus on mix techniques  between deep meditation ( jhana state ) and LD.

first you can reach a sort of "white sleep" which means that your body fall asleep but you are still conscious, you  can even hear you breath like a sleeper

then, specially if you are highly train, you can feel that your dream body or mind made body ( i like that name :-) is a little bit floating ( impossible to explain without experiencing it) then you just have to stand up like if you would get out of the bed and you find yourself beside your bed in your dream body.

Is it just curiosity, fun, pleasure, excitement? Or do you also get self-discovery and insight? How much of it is passively discovering what's already there vs intentionally controlling  or creating experiences? Do you ever use LD as a way of preparing your mind to manifest more efficiently in the waking world?

I guess my particular line of interest is that it could be helpful as a way of identifying and working with certain subconscious issues, to bring them to a more satisfactory resolution in a harmless way. Possibly also as an aid to manifesting.

What's the optimatal balance between LD and jhana for you?

From an orthodox Buddhist standpoint I imagine people might say LD is just a distraction and a new source of clinging/suffering. But maybe there’s a more tantric angle, working skillfully with what you’ve got and intentionally manifesting for the “benefit of sentient beings”. Do you have a view on this?

This idea of drawing the reed from the sheath, it reminds me of the Vedic concept of koshas (covering layers of the Atman) in the Upanishads. Is that where it comes from?

That's a lot of question that i can't answer, to make it simple, i practice LD so ardently for strong personal reasons but curiosity, fun,etc, are definitely part of it. I don't use LD for subconscious issues either , i find meditation much more valuable to do so.
Orthodox whatever standpoint is definitely not the way i see think but  if some people enjoy walking the same old line, let them do so, why loosing time about arguing that there is other ways, waste of time...
Tantric angle is more interesting and actually, Tibetans monks use dream yoga, which is basically LD to train for the after death, they believe that when you die you enter different realms ( bardos) without much consciousness, like a dreamer in a way and training to lucidity with LD is the best way to realise what 's happening to you , it will give you a great advantage at your death...

What i can say i that entering a LD is like entering another world with other rules, it is very enjoyable and there is lot's of simile with "our world" in the way that most of the time ( if not all ) we are dreaming our life, lost in our thoughts, bla, bla here , bla, bla there, we are dreamer, awakening is just a vague idea, almost a myth and becoming lucid at night in a dream helps you to open your eyes in this world too, plus it is really fun ;-)


i have no idea

Tibetans monks use dream yoga, which is basically LD to train for the after death, they believe that when you die you enter different realms ( bardos) without much consciousness, like a dreamer in a way and training to lucidity with LD is the best way to realise what 's happening to you , it will give you a great advantage at your death...

( and  i don't care about Nibana either, ah,ah )

Can you write more about how you train with hypnagogia and why can't you do it right from jhanas?

Is anything close to sleeping and then waking up and rolling out of the body mentioned anywhere in that sutta?

One of the things that can disorient a regular meditator who is experiencing fractals while out and about is the misappropriation of resources that make one feel like the have lost their abilities/lost their way. I don't know if Daniel has ever mentioned this in his powers talks.

Basixally we go somewhere that sounds fun and it turns out we didn't have enough energy to feel triumphant. Third jhana.

Last night I experimented with sort of a tandem-version of astral projection together with someone close to me. I haven't had much experiences like that before. I have been outside my body but the only time that lasted for more than a moment it was when my dad came to say goodbye after killing himself. I have just assumed that I don't have the drive and imagination required for that kind of exploration. The opportunity came up to get some guidance in getting started with it. In the very beginning there was a minor bump in the road as we discovered that I process things differently than what he was used to. I couldn't just leave my body behind that fast, and I felt that there was a barrier in my lack of visual imagination. My guide was very sensitive to my experiences, though. He asked some questions about it and took it from there. I could still feel my body but it was floating, so I was instructed to think of that as my astral body and go with the sensory experiences. I had said that I wanted to go into space but that upward movement just didn't happen. After some alternative suggestions, we settled for the ocean instead. I still couldn't visualize, but we focused on the tactile and kinesthetical sensations of movement in the water and the coolening of the water as we sank deeper. We sank deep deep into stillness and just remained there for a while. None of us had any drive to do anything. It felt safe there in the deep stillness.

Then there was a sense of movement. I think it was some synesthetic mix between tactile and visual imagery. I was instructed to just go with that, and from here I took the lead. I was swirling around there in the depth, spiraling, being swept by undercurrents, looping around... Then there was a loud outer sound that went all vibrational and sort of projected me upwards, and suddenly I was in space. Before that, I had been feeling the water around me, soft and smooth and cohesive, and the pressure from it. Now the pressure was gone and that cohesiveness was gone. Instead it was spacious and zero gravity. Then there was air, enabling me to move. I was moving fast. As I slowed down, there was a shift with gravity coming back and a feeling of increased density around me. Then I found that I was in a lake or sea, rising up to the surface. I could see the surface approaching and then the skye above me. When I moved my gaze I could see water around me and a beach and trees and a lawn. I don't remember if there were people on the beach.

From here my memory is a bit vague. Maybe I sank down into the water again. Yeah, I think that was it. And I was drawn out by undercurrents, and then I was moving with the waves until I felt the sea bed. The tide waves were withdrawing, leaving me behind in the fluted sand, water splashing over me for a while until it was ebb. I lay there in the firm sand, my body heavy. Then after a while, I started to sink down in the sand. Soon I was covered by sand. I still felt completely safe. I just surrendered to sinking, descending. Then the firmness was gone. I was empty space. I asked my guide where he was. He replied "I'm here". Then there was that sense of being drawn into being again. It was overwhelming, in a pleasant way. I had to breathe heavily, almost like a newborn gasping for air.The intensity increased. Stars were exploding all around me for quite some time, and I was exploding with them. It was absolute euphoria. I don't know what happy chemicals were involved, but I was high as a kite.

After a while the intensity calmed down, and I was completely serene, albeit still high. There were lights swirling around me. I was in the ocean again, appraching land. I stood on the seabed, watching the land. It was barren, with low conifer plants and little more. I could feel my body both there and in my bed. I think I got lost in some fantasy or dream, because when I suddenly heard the voice of my guide I was startled.

In retrospect I realized that I had made a tour through all the elements.

I was still flooded with happy chemicals of different sorts, so I barely slept. When I closed my eyes, brights lights were swirling around and my body felt light. I was still high as a kite when I woke up in the morning, throughout breakfast and walking to my yoga class, and in the beginning of the yoga class. The asanas were challenging and my body was tired so during the practice that I didn't feel high anymore. However, at the end of the class, in shavasana, I was floating among multicolored swirls. Walking from the class, I suddenly felt first really exhausted and then shaky. I thought I might end up in a fetal position due to withdrawal symptoms because my body had depleted its supply of happy chemicals (been there before). I decided to sit down in a park under a tree to write up this report and get grounded, and so I did. Now I feel almost normal, but I'm starving. I also think I may need to digest my experiences in silence for a while. It was all good (more than good, obviously), but I may need to integrate it.

I can't do this, but I think this book can tell you how - 

https://smile.amazon.com/Adventures-Beyond-Body-Out-Body/dp/0062513710?sa-no-redirect=1

I had some experiences last night that might be relevant for this thread. I was kind of shaky when I wrote down the report, hence the spellings error and grammatical errors.

Maybe I misunderstood your question?

Hi Linda
i read your experience but won't discuss much about it here ( this is not a LD/OBE forum) . . .

I don't think it was tricky, just vague.

I have done the entire arch, including the formless realms as defined by Daniel. We don't seem to agree about them, though, because I don't count feeling the flow intensely as fourth jhana. That should have settled into chrystal clear calm by then, by my standards. 

(edit) OOOPS! emoticon This is not linda's practice thread, But in a way, that makes my point even more strongly. Linda is here visiting a threa YOU began, coming to "your place" to ask honest questions. Isn't that why we're all here? Give her the fullest, most honest and truth-full answers you can, to whatever extent you wish.

Hi all
I discovered quite recently that  in the
Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life , something is 
described as a mind made body, just after the Buddha describe Jhanas in
the sutta, he says :

"With his mind thus concentrated... he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made
body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of
the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath..."

then he describe supranormal powers:

"With his mind thus concentrated...he directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers... Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds...

It seems obvious that he is talking about LD or OBE and a mind made body seems to me very related to a dream body

The thing is that Buddha seems to perform those LD/OBE right from  jhanas  ( which has been describe just before , also he start paragraphs saying : "With his mind thus concentrated") 

For years i have been training on LD with a very high practice ( mixing wake back to bed and meditation every night ) i know how to get inside a dream without loosing consciousness ( wake induce lucid dream technique ) in many different ways, i also train in a meditative state or jhanique state with hypnagogia which is a great way to enhance  lucid dreaming practice  but so far never succeed to do it right from jhanas and i wonder if there could be a way to train for LD/OBE right from the jhana state ? any ideas?

TY
Fabrice

Do you see?

Not quite ...to be honest.

But may be i get the idea , the thing is that i don't think it works that way ( or you should try to explain it as if i was 8 years old :-)

My experience show me that it can be possible to be  be-located, at least for a short time , it happens when you go through HH field while falling asleep at wbtb or during micro awakening, result  is that i can feel my body on the bed but my mind is in the dream, sometimes like a sort of "floating consciousnesses" ( means that dream body is not yet formed) but it sometimes happens that i can feel my position in the bed and in the same time my body ( dream body) is lying in the dream, i remember once where i was lying in the grass of a meadow in a dream and i was feeling my real body in my real bed, but this is very rare ...
My idea is that it should be possible to have someting similar to that while meditating in a seating position even though i have no idea so far how to proceed.

i have done it, and it is possible.

Well, then you should describe exactlly what was the experience , not some aproximation but the the exact report as if you were  to  make a police statement, that will help because at the end of the day  only experience matters...

you can send it at fab2064@gmail.com but it will be good to have it here , no?

I will try to bring more clarity about what i mean by mixing jhana
and Ld and i will try to describe an experience of  this kind of mixing.

Problem is that if i talk about jhana/LD to LDreamer, they have no
idea about what is jhana and  if i talk
about  jhana/LD to meditator they have no ( or little ) idea about what i'm
talking about related to WILD LD techniques ...

Let 's have a  ( very)  quick explanation about WILD LD  :
You have to practice wild techniques ( entering a LD without loosing
consciousness) after a WBTB ( waking up after 4 to 6hrs of sleep and
going back to bed , sleep cycle are about 1.30h) then you let yourself drift into sleeping  and try to
wake up as quick as possible , in fact you have to use micro sleep,
which means that you wake up shortly and fall asleep again , at each
waking up you can try to separate using particular techniques like the
one describe in Michael Raduga book ( probably the easiest  and best technique available for newbies and i've read them all )

There is a large range of phenomena related to wild techniques
whether you fall asleep or you come back from sleep because falling asleep and
coming back from a dream ( waking up ) are "door entrance", if you fall
asleep you will go through HH ( hypnagogia )  and eventually at different levels will
get right inside the beginning of a dream scene ( those kind of wild are harder
to master and require experience), when you wake up, you can go back in
the dream using  " OBE style " techniques, which end up as if you would
get up from your bed in your room with your dream body  or "mind made
body" (this is what works more often). Of course there is lot's of other
things that can be made but basically that is it.

As a well trained   LDreamer in the field of wake induce lucid dream ( i've been
training for years almost every night) i know those technique and apply
them ( amongst others ) in a personal way which has become  more
instinct applied technique than anything else.

Now what i try do is putting myself in a jhanic state as deep as
possible, something like a good J4 where i will not feel my body anymore
and a very calm and focus mind, thus i go back to bed from my seating
meditation  and  as  going back to bed lower the jhanic state i need a
few minutes while i am lying to get back in J4 or so, then i let myself
drift toward sleeping.

At this point you have to consider that a "normal  person" has little
chance to wake up before 1.30 h because one will get back to sleep
cycle, i do wake up more often because i spent months of intense
training to break those cycles after a WBTB ( never before as i need a good night
rest of 3 to 4 cycle before a wake back to bed, then i can mess up my sleep ).

So what 's the point of using jhana if i can wake up many time after a WBTB and apply techniques and  go for a wild ?

The point is that result is sometimes very weird and seems to enhance the ability to get up in a dream body.

for instance :

Without jhanic state:  i  wake up apply technique and get up in my
dream body or get through HH and get inside a dream, in any case i can
do it 1 or 2 times ( rarely more ) during a night.

With jhanic state:  i wake up, do not need to apply techniques and
get up from my bed in a dream body , i can do it many times, each time i
wake up my body is still in a jhanic state which is very close to
catatonia and my mind quite focus  even though i can experience "normal "
things during the LD
i remember that recently it was like a never ending in and out,  i
can't remember how many time i was going back to the " inner world", may
be 10 times and the "dream land" was almost without dream elements, at
one point i was swimming in a sort of  void  weightlessness but very stable, every time i was
back to IRL , i could feel that there was not real separation between
dream world and reality, that is why i could get back there  again and
again...
This is just an example and this is what i mean by  mixing jhana and LD cant get weird.
i am just at the beginning of this kind of experimentation, the main
difficulty is to get into  the jhanic state at 3/4 AM, i've noticed that
it is not my best time for getting into jhana, may be because my
energetic psychic level is not good enough at that time, sometimes it works , sometimes not.

hope this will help to understand the work i try to do...

What trouble me  is " defined by Daniel ", i don't think that anyone can really define what  jhanas are  as we  go through very personal experience, of course there is some common aspect, feeling, sensations and all but still the experience is unique.

Personnaly and specially if i deepen jhana,  i experience very strong energetic physical sensation even though my mind is " chrystal clear calm" ( common aspect) , this is due to lot's of pratice of  body scan through retreats and personal yoga nidra practice ( more than 30 years ) and probably that this is a personal aspect.

let's say that this is a field that i really know technically speaking and discuss a lot in other places , i just didn't want to go too far in that thing unless someone ask a quite precise question, experiences in that area are very, very subjective and related to the one who experience it i would say...

If you need to get into jhana at a time of the night when it is challenging for you, timing with regard to the cycling of nanas might be what could tip the scale in your favor. If you are aiming for fourth jhana, the equanimity nana is your friend. If you are aiming for the more fireworksy stuff of second jhana, the A&P nana is enough. If you want to increase your access to jhana, 3rd path pr 4th path would probably do the trick.

Especially if we have stronger concentration, the great depth of the jhana can masque as a higher jhana when we are in fact briefly going back to a lower jhana to refill. Without knowledge of the insight cycling (that is inevitably going on in the background if the practitioner has great precision, because the skillful navigation involves insights), that aspect can easily be missed.

I hope somebody with the right set of qualifications will respond.

With jhanic state [to LD]
i remember that recently it was like a never ending in and out,  i
can't remember how many time i was going back to the " inner world", may
be 10 times and the "dream land" was almost without dream elements, at
one point i was swimming in a sort of void weightlessness but very stable, every time i was
back to IRL , i could feel that there was not real separation between
dream world and reality, that is why i could get back there  again and
again...

hope this will help to understand the work i try to do...

As i said i trust more instinct insight then anything else and practicing jhanas give you those kind of insight, there is very little mental stuff out of it, i sometimes call it cognition without mental but it 's very real.

And i never go directly to a J4 but always through all of them , to tell you clearly what i think about , i would say that there is not anything like J1/2/3/4 it is more like a continuous flow of altered state of consciousnesses where you dive in and iteration works like a deepening effect of that flow.

And i also think that we have psychic moment where we are at our best and sometime not, for instance i am always at my best in the morning ( i am also a morning person , can't hold long at evening and can't do any serious work at evening time )

training is the great master! the more you train the more you know, it's like a root learning, then you recognize where you are or how to get there, it's like reading the manual and going through it for real, as a matter of fact in that area all maps are vague, all maps give you a very vague idea of the territory which has to be discovered personally, maps should just contain one information: go that way and find out , but so many maps and so many people looking at it like the finger showing the moon ;-)

I hope we will build the right set of qualifications

In fact, I now think jhana is a frozen form of alayavijnana (storage of all our karmic seeds) with hindrancess temporarily suppressed. And the manifestations of hypnagogic objects right there in the "void" shows that this ice can easily morph into snow figures ;-). But disregard this paragraph, if you are not into it.

That’s pretty much what I have been thinking lately too.

Sign me up too.

lHave you ever considered that the territory you accessed (bolded part) was lucid dreamless (formless) sleep as opposed to lucid formed dream or some sort of protoform of it? If it has an allure for you, have you wondered for what reasons, if your conscious motivation is not insight into the nature of the self?

I have wondered for a long time if lucid dreamless sleep is not analogous or even the same as fromless jhanas (5-8). In the end in both realms there is no body. I don't remember if you wrote about formless attainments in this thread?

But my way was totally reversed to yours. I started from dreamless lucidity and developed the ability to manifest single formed high definition objects in the vast jhana galaxy to break the spell of empty witnessing consciousness as a final destination. I practice with rotating diamonds or fractals in the space ;-) I can now clearly see that so called self-aware awareness is made of subtle, panoramic, global objects/phenomena like luminosity, bliss, stability.

In fact, I now think jhana is a frozen form of alayavijnana (storage of all our karmic seeds) with hindrancess temporarily suppressed. And the manifestations of hypnagogic objects right there in the "void" shows that this ice can easily morph into snow figures ;-). But disregard this paragraph, if you are not into it.

There's a continuum, sure. But they do have very different qualities. Unless you tailormake your own blends or totally new versions; that's an option too. I made one based on lust today. The Buddha would not have approved, but boy, was he missing out on something.

I’m working on it. I only started very recently and I already succeded in doing a task in a lucid dream.

Sorry for spamming with several short posts. There is a reoccurring forum bug that only allows for a limited number of characters, and I didn't have the patience to wait for that to be fixed.

I think that if you familiarize yourself more with how people tend to work here at DhO, you'll find that people are much more experimental than you give them credit for.

Sorry for the "lack of credit" , well, let's wait and see then ;-)

Joe Friday's character frequently used the phrase, "all we want are the facts, ma’am” (and sometimes “All we know are the facts ma’am”)
when questioning women in the course of police investigations. Freberg’s “Little Blue Riding Hood” spoof changed the line slightly, and it was Freberg’s alteration — rather than anything Joe Friday said — that would enter the roll of immortal catch phrases:

Little Blue Riding Hood:   Why Grandma,what big ears you’ve got!

Sgt. Wednesday:   All the better to get the facts. I just want to get the facts, ma’am.

Webb biographer Michael J.Hayde described the transition:As this exchangeentered the American subconscious, it soon found itself truncated to “Just thefacts, ma’am” From that point on, every Webb interview, every newspaper andmagazine article that had anything to do with Dragnet madeuse of the phrase. For the next year it so dominated media coverage of the showthat finally, inevitably, the line was credited to Sgt. Friday, as if he’d beensaying it all along. His actual phrase — “All we want (or “know”) are thefacts, ma’am” — bit the dust.

Sure, but in order to do so, we may need to find them first.

If that friend tries to explain that new, unknown to you taste it won't make much sense until you taste the drink for yourself.

Interesting experience, my question would be : did this ( the all sequence ) happens anytime you go for it? i mean everyday or at least week, you reach that state and here we go you can experience quite the same or similar experience( sound, brightness and on...), can you develop the same pattern, study it, reproduce it at will ?

At the same time, within our partly shared construction of a partly shared reality, there seems to be sufficient empirical evidence to the existence of enough of a common ground about the typical jhanas for it to be meaningful to talk about, for those who are interested.

Before you walk away, can you at least answer my last question - why is this important to you?
I don't think you understand what I've said either, and the way through
any misunderstanding is to keep talking, which I'm willing to do.

why is jhana different from any other mind object or experience?

and if we can't do that reliably then the dharma isn't all that transferable from person to person in written or verbal forms. My experience is that the dharma is transferable based on descriptions of the phenomena upon which it is based, and the methods that it uses.

It's pretty obvious from that sutta that he is not talking about lucid dreaming or a dream body.

Is anything close to sleeping and then waking up and rolling out of the body mentioned anywhere in that sutta?

Tonight i had an experience that could relate a little to what i am looking for as a matter of mixing between jhana and LD, i wil try to describe it as simple as possible.

i couldn't do my wake back to bed at 4 AM because of an headache but i finally get up, took a pill and decide to go for a short meditation, it took me at least half and hour to feel my head better, i thought i could not do much for this night and that was fine but i kept going into the meditation until i went in a very pleasant state , not the way i usually do , more like Ajahn Brahm describe what he calls the " beautiful breath" , i was so absorbed in my breath that i could fell almost every millisecond of it , it reminded me a time were i was sailing a boat in terrible weather in the Mediterranean sea, it was night time wind gone up dramatically, more then 40 knots, i was going down an up waves on a very dangerous sailing but after 1 hour of fight , there was no more waves, wind , boat , sailing, just a perfect feeling of every millisecond up and down the waves , strangely and  similarly tonight i was climbing up and down the breath, no thought could catch me anymore. Eventually after 1h40 mns i decided to go back to bed for an hour, just to have a short sleep before my morning meditation.

i lied on my side like i usually do and naturally went back to the breath until i reached a state almost as pleasant as the beautiful breath, hypnagogia came very quickly but there was no way i could sleep and there was no way i could catch hypnagogia ( technically they were too short ), eventually i went on very brief period of sleep like seconds but without really loosing consciousness and quickly back to hypnagogia.

In that case i have a plan B, i can try to separate using special "cycling technique" but it has to be fast like : get up! and it has to be more like during short awakening, anyway without doing anything i realized that my dream body was moving  a little , i felt the separation and go on very slowly , i was getting up on my bed in my dream body in a very slow motion and in the same time a was feeling my real body lying , that was probably too slow, my dream body went back to my body like an elastic. I focus on the breath again and tried again 10 mns later, slowly but not too slow , it worked perfectly and i get up in a dark room, i shortly run and fall into an absolute void, a very pleasant state that i usually know even though it is  always different and always surprise me, this time it was like falling in very thin sand that surrended me from everywhere, it was remarkably stable, i knew instinctively that i wouldn't wake up even if i wanted to, so i enjoyed the void and finally it end up in a lucid dream ( doesn't matter what happened next)

this morning i had some deep meditation and eventually manage to reproduce the feeling i had in bed, i did not separate but did feel some " physical loosening" that could lead to a separation one day, so despite a bad start, it was a good working night :-)

PS:

Would this not, O Prunesquallor Mahacitti, thus be a fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?

. . .more like Ajahn Brahm describe what he calls the " beautiful breath" , i was so absorbed in my breath that i could fell almost every millisecond of it , it reminded me a time were i was sailing a boat in terrible weather in the Mediterranean sea, it was night time wind gone up dramatically, more then 40 knots, i was going down an up waves on a very dangerous sailing but after 1 hour of fight , there was no more waves, wind , boat , sailing, just a perfect feeling of every millisecond up and down the waves , strangely and  similarly tonight i was climbing up and down the breath, no thought could catch me anymore.

without doing anything i realized that my dream body was moving  a little , i felt the separation and go on very slowly , i was getting up on my bed in my dream body in a very slow motion and in the same time a was feeling my real body lying , that was probably too slow, my dream body went back to my body like an elastic. I focus on the breath again and tried again 10 mns later, slowly but not too slow , it worked perfectly and i get up in a dark room, i shortly run and fall into an absolute void, a very pleasant state that i usually know even though it is  always different and always surprise me, this time it was like falling in very thin sand that surrended me from everywhere, it was remarkably stable, i knew instinctively  that i wouldn't wake up even if i wanted to, so i enjoyed the void and finally it end up in a lucid dream ( doesn't matter what happened next)

This reminds me of a movie "Lucy", where *** SPOILER ALERT *** the main character undergoes an evolution of consciousness due to ingesting some sort of God-Pill. She becomes everything, everywhere and everytime. When they picture "timelessness" she is shown sitting on a chair with prehistoric scenes flashing behind her.
 
I am of course in no position to diagnose anyone, but it occured to me that the script writer treats the fameous spiritual "becoming one" very literally. As if it was Lucy, her small biographical psychological embodied self, who was to become one with all. Instead of discovering that not only the world but also her body and human psyche is simply one of the formed phenomena dreamt by one formless consciousness, straight from this consciousness' empty source. In the climax of the union with the universe, Lucy's body dissapears. But her dress stays on the chair. That is very interesting :-))). Of course, it's not the dress that became one with the universe - but her fingernails, liver, limbs, hair and whole naked body did ;-).  ***END***

but this is about what i am saying or try to say !
 except that i don't believe that jhanas are limited to buddhist description and that we should investigate further those experience, what i am saying is that you can't trust the Buddhists map of jhana as they are, not because Buddha were talking bullshit but because it is evident there we are lacking a huge amount of information with what we know  and that we should not try to stick to the limited-sacred-description but try to go further in the field of experiment, as far as we can ... like scientist would do.

 i am probably the guy most specialized in void state which means that i often end up in a LD without dream elements, i have a dream body though but the space is empty , i can walk, run, fly in an almost pure void, sometimes it's windy sometimes not.

As far as i can see, there is not "hundreds of books" that have been written about jhanas, there is a few books and i've read most  of them if not all of them plus  every scholars studies i could find which are related to it.
Most of what have been written come mainly  from the same sources: sutapitaka and visudimagha and this not a lot of information, just a few information that tend to be repeated again and again.
Most  of modern practitioner that have written about jhana have a tendency to "follow the scrip"  whether is is the sutapitaka or visudimagha
at the exception perhaps of Leigh Brasington which try to give a more open view about jhanas.

It remind me a book about Dzogchen that i read recently, the author was announcing proudly that this is a tradition where endless generations of monks have repeated the same experiments for hundreds of years and this is exactlly what i don't want to do.

Lovely imagery on one of the gentlest and most potent experiences i know, the "beautiful breath." Simple clear. I think that you could use this as a base of operations, as it were, for your own researches and interests: home base. Stable, free of crap, free of ambition: the sky is the limit from here, and the bottom of the sea, and your imagination, and, even where imagination runs out into the sand, the possibility of discerning subtler currents and directions in the fresh untracked desert beyond. meanwhile, the state itself is simply rejuvenative at worst, and actively sheds crap like a duck sheds water. At best, there are those content to believe it one of the finest summits and best views one comes to on the path.

in my understanding of what you have wanted to do, and why you invited dialogue here on DhO in the first place, this is pretty close to what you were hoping for, isn't it? Enjoying the void is jhana par excellence, in my limited understanding, and you got there in lucid sleep, and took off from there into a lucid dream adventure. Wasn't that an item on your to-do list? Check, yes?

In dream yoga the adept trains not only in recognizing the illusory
nature of the whole universe, but also of his own self, starting with
his
identification with the body. I think you wrote about it
somewhere, but to check the depth of this identification there are tasks
to be performed in lucid dreams. Going through the walls, shape
shifting (morphing into a tiger or a deity etc.), taking the whole dream
landscape as your own body. And also resting without any formed support
in your spacious formless awareness (taking luminosity as a subtle
support first). I assume you have done some of these exercises. But do you think there is a reason your mind keeps recreating your human "mind made body" even when in "void"?

To me this sounds like insisting on using square-shaped wheels instead of round ones just because it's limiting to do what everybody else does.

I prefer using the round ones to get the ride going and then experimenting from there. It's not like I have to use the same wheels forever. Once the speed is there, I can take off and fly if I wish.

Hi all
I go on my investigation and a few days ago i had the most extraordinary experience of  multiple lucid dream i ever had.
the technique i use is now quite well established:
I get up around 4 AM , have about 1 to 1and half hour of meditation, try to get as deep as i can, something like a good J4.
then go back to bed and get back to the jhana state ( it always decline a bit when you go back to bed), then let myself slowly drift toward the sleeping state.
and, sort of, keep my mind very clear.
Then i use any kind of wild LD techniques.
This time it was just amazing, i experienced what i would call a total liminal porosity state,
which means that i endlessly traveled between the lucid dream state and the Hypnagogic state, i could'nt count exactlly how many time but i am quite sure that i performed about 15 lucid dream of differents kinds:
getting up the bed in my dream body ( 5 to 8 times ), inside the dream through HH images ( 3 to 4),
slightly loosing consciousness at the beging of the dream then becoming lucid ( 2/3 times) and a new techniques that i discovered ,
which was shouting with my dream body in a deep HH state which straight away put me into the dream ( 3/4 times) .

the complete experience lasted about 75 mns but felt like hours, it made me understand better how this interfacing between jhana state and the dream state can be possible,
it seems that a sort of liminal porosity is created which makes the HH field very open, i can't explain it here in a few word, it require to much lucid dream understanding.

I know that this kind of forum is not the right place to discuss about it but as i said before , LD practitioner don't know much about deep meditation  and meditators no much about LD...
Anyway just in case one day another hybrid fellow come around here, that could usefull...

I know that this kind of forum is not the right place to discuss about it but as i said before , LD practitioner don't know much about deep meditation  and meditators no much about LD...
Anyway just in case one day another hybrid fellow come around here, that could usefull...

lol, fuck you, man, if you're such a hybrid fellow, act like one. You have been deeply welcomed here by any number of people.
Just relax and share your wealth, and quit this pigeon-holing crap.

lol, this is quite an answer ;-)
About the welcoming, i won't be so sure Tim , i even had private answers, one guy said he preferred talk privately because he found this forum of " pedantic nature"
you don't know me much but enough to know that i don't really give a shit about it and if you found my attitude "pigeon-holing" ( not sure to know what it means but i get the picture ), then fine for me, you can call me  hybrid-pigeon-holing-fellow.
As said one day Jacques Chirac( one of our president) : "cela m'en touche une sans faire bouger l'autre"  ;-)

Mes excuses si j'ai offensé. Je pense que tu me connais assez bien pour savoir que je peux être un âne, lol.

beleive system whatsoever as long as i don't experience it by myself 

bla bla on this or that astral , esotéric, samsara, whatever... as i said  i am not interested in speculations.

That's a lie

You are on a buddhist forum you little sentient being stuck in samsara.

I will say the main point out of many again. Your house tables and walls have an astral counterpart that you can walk through at that level. Your dog does too. This is not something unique to the perception of Boddhitsattvas only and these cannot access the "Brahma worlds". You haven't read a sutra in your whole life. Why are you on this forum?

"Just if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath..." - this clearly indicates something different which you now are calling "bla bla". It's not bla bla, it's clear English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

Your house tables and walls have an astral counterpart that you can walk through at that level. Your dog does too. This is not something unique to the perception of Boddhitsattvas only and these cannot access the "Brahma worlds". You haven't read a sutra in your whole life. Why are you on this forum?