Message Boards Message Boards

Non-specific/Broad/Generic

Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis

Toggle
Hi guys,

This is for any yogi who is post-path and has access to calling up fruitions at will. I recently stumbled onto a new way of cultivating ideal conditions for triggering PCE mode. But it is also great for lengthening a very peaceful and conducive absorption like state that aids one in cultivating felicity.

Here is the set up:

1. Call up a fruition through one of the doors.

2. At the very moment the mind exits the cessation, the very moment after it, focus all the mind on one of the three characteristics of the sensations that become obvious in the exit experience. I usually focus on the vibrations and how they arise and pass in an instant to be replaced by another. You could focus on how those sensations arise and pass away without any help nor self. Or you could observe the sensations with a view to how they are unsatisfactory in nature. Observing in one of these ways correctly will detach the mind and make it quite dispassionate. Thus the arising of sankhara will be affected.

3. Hold the focus on the chosen characteristic for as long as you can. Notice at the exit, that there is no sense of "being". Taking a characteristic seems to detach the mind long enough for the process of rebooting to slow down and for me so far, to cease the rebooting process till I choose to let it occur. This is VERY conducive to cultivating a PCE in my experience.

4. Tell me what happens in this thread when you do this experiment.

This experiment was inspired by this Mahasi quote:

It has already been stated that phalasamapatti (fruition attainment) first begins to occur when arising from nirodhasamapatti (cessation of all the senses). This phalasamapatti being free from raga (passion), etc., it is also called suññata(the Void). As it is free of raga-nimitta (one of the attributes of sentient existence), it is also known as animitta. Moreover, as it is free from passionate desire such as ræga, etc., it is also called appanihita. As such, phassa which is also included in this samapatti is also known as suññata, animitta and appanihita. As phassa (contact) takes place by dwelling upon Nibbana, which is known as suññata (the Void), animitta (the Unconditioned), and appanithta (freedom from longing or desire), with attentive consciousness of mind, it is called suññata, etc. The answer, therefore, is that the three kinds of phassa, viz: suññataphassa, animittaphassa and appanihitaphassa first begin to take place. For better understanding, it may be stated that when arising from nirodhasamapatti,contact takes place with suññata-nibbana, a condition devoid of kilesa-sankhara to which the mind has been directed as its sense-object. Contact is also made with animitta-nibbana which is devoid of or free from any sign of nimitta. Then comes mere awareness of contact with appanihita-nibbana, a condition free from vehement desire, which is the sense object that has been contemplated.

http://www.dhammaweb.net/mahasi/book/Mahasi_Sayadaw_Culavedalla_Sutta.pdf


And


When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."[2]

FOOTNOTE:

[2]Emptiness, the signless, & the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of Unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one's first apprehension of Unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend Unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html


:-)

Nick

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/6/11 10:46 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Hey Nick,

I played around with this a bit and got a decent EE out of it. My mental precision is not strong enough to notice what immediately happens at the exit with enough clarity to recognize the absence of a sense of being, at least not without cultivating some concentration beforehand (which I didn't do), but I get the fruition, and focus immediately at its ending on the fact that there are vibrations; if I focus on that in a certain way, the vibrations are paradoxically suppressed to a significant extent.

Rather than a new thing, this reminds me of something Dan Ingram wrote about here (sorry, no link) in his early explorations of PCEs. One method he offered was to focus on the attention wave so much that it seems like a spatial distortion, and it will vanish. I remember playing around with this during late 3rd path (it was the only thing that people had written in these forums at the time that made sense to me re: PCEs) and it does work though I was never able to get a full PCE out of it. What I just described doing in response to your practice suggestion feels nearly identical to me, except that in doing it from the exit of a fruition, the vibrations never have a chance to really start up, so it skips over the "attention wave spatial distortion" part.

Just another data point.

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 10:25 AM as a reply to End in Sight.
I just got directed to some pretty interesting info: I edited it in to the article I wrote above at the Hamilton Project: Lengthening Fruition Attainment, slightly edited for more info.

Here is what I found extremely interesting and helpful for my path to Ara...I mean AF. ;-)

Edited to add an excerpt from All of Us: Beset by birth, decay, and death by Sister Ayya Khema

With this following quote, I am pointing to the notion that the fruition attainment is NOT the cessation of the senses itself but the actual exit experience of no "being", which can be lengthened through resolve. Literally speaking, the actual fruition attainment IS the PCE. And a full-blown PCE IS a path moment in my current experiecne and opinion. Ayya Khema, reputed to have been an arhat of the fetter model kind seems to point to this:

"The path and fruit moments recur for the once-returner (sakadagami), the non-returner(anagami) and the Enlightened One (arahant). Each time they are not only deepened, but can be lengthened. One could compare this to having examinations at the university. If one is going through four years of university study to get a certain degree, one has to pass examinations at the end of each year. One has to answer questions each time, based on one's previously absorbed knowledge. But the questions become deeper, more profound and more difficult with each subsequent examination. While they are always concerned with the same subject, they require more depth and profundity of understanding each time. Until one finally graduates and doesn't have to return to university. It's the same with our spiritual development. Each path moment is based on the previous one and is concerned with the same subject, yet it goes deeper and further. Until one passes one's final test and need not return again."

"The path moment doesn't have any thinking or feeling in it. It is not comparable to the meditative absorptions (jhana). Although it is based upon them because only the concentrated mind can enter into a path moment, it does not have the same qualities. the meditative absorptions have — in their initial stages — the ingredients of rapture, happiness and peacefulness. Later on, the mind experiences expansion, nothingness and a change of perception. The path moment does not contain any of these states of mind."

"It has a quality of non-being. This is such a relief and changes one's world view so totally that it is quite understandable that the Buddha made such a distinction between a worldling and a Noble One. While the meditative absorptions bring with them a feeling of oneness, of unity, the path moment does not even contain that. The moment of fruition, subsequent to the path moment, is the understood experience and results in a turned-around vision of existence."

"The new understanding recognizes every thought, every feeling as stress (dukkha). The most elevated thought, the most sublime feeling still has this quality. Only when there is nothing, is there no stress. There is nothing internal or external that contains the quality of total satisfactoriness. Because of such an inner vision, the passion for wanting anything is discarded. All has been seen for what it really is and nothing can give the happiness that arises through the practice of the path and its results."

"The Nibbanic element cannot be truly described as bliss, because bliss has a connotation of exhilaration. We use the word "bliss" for the meditative absorption, where it includes a sense of excitement. The Nibbanic element does not recognize bliss because all that arises is seen as stress. "The bliss of Nibbana" may give one the impression that one may find perfect happiness, but the opposite is true. One finds that there is nothing and therefore no more unhappiness, only peace.
To look for path and fruit will not bring them about, because only moment to moment awareness can do so. This awareness will eventually culminate in real concentration where one can let go of thinking and be totally absorbed. We can drop the meditation subject at that time. We need not push it aside, it falls away of its own accord, and absorption in awareness occurs. If there has to be an ambition in one's life, this is the only worthwhile one. All others will not bring fulfillment."


If the above quote doesn't point to a PCE, I don't know what does. Another important quote:

"The initial fruit moment needs to be re-lived, one has to resurrect it over and over again, until the second path moment can arise. It's like repeating what one knows and not forgetting so that one can build upon it."


What does it point to? Ayya Khema's description of the path moment as as well as the fruition attainment both uncannily match the PCE. So the above quote points to one thing if this idea is adhered to. "One must resurrect it (the PCE) over and over again". Makes sense to me!

;-)


:-)

Edited to add that above, Ayya Khema is talking about the Path moment. The fruition immediatley follwos the path moment.


Magga-phala - Path and fruit. First arises the path-consciousness, immediately followed by "fruition," a moment of supermundane awareness.


from a glossary

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 3:09 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
hmm quite the fascinating take. i wonder what the things we've been calling 'fruitions' and 'path's are, in that case. just wasted opportunities (since we didn't know to lengthen it into a PCE)?

but other questions also arise. as far as i know, there's a PCE and that's it - no flavors of PCE. but the quote points to 'deeper' PCEs as the path moments continue - what is meant by that?

further if everyone has had a PCE (e.g. in childhood), wouldn't everyone be enlightened to some degree?

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 4:38 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
I have only had 2 "full blown" PCEs that i can remember. These two changed me. All other PCE's have been short lived or probably highly refined EEs. i think a lot of people including myself have been calling those highly refined EEs the PCE, when they weren't really the real deal. Just fleeting glimpses. The real deal is the real deal. I do believe Trent and Tarin only had 1 or two full on PCEs before AF.

As much as I dislike speculating about such things, I have ideas but they remain only speculative ones as to why people, including myself, had the PCE experience in childhood. Perhaps we were primed?

;-)

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 5:07 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Hi Nick,

This is very interesting. Thanks for posting it.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 7:37 PM as a reply to Florian.
No worries Florian,

I'm going to use this thread to collect info i find on phalasamapatti, the fruition attainment. Here is what I've found so far:



Foundation Bulletin, translated from Thai.

Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

Fruition Attainment, Phala-samåpatti

Issue of analysis: Can the ariyan who has not attained jhåna enter fruition
attainment, phala-samåpatti? (1

The conclusion regarding the issue of analysis: The ariyan who has not
attained jhåna is not able to enter fruition attainment.

The sources which support the conclusion of this issue:
1. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Ch 1, § 9, Mahånåma.
2. Middle Length Sayings I, 44, Lesser Discourse of the Miscellany
(Cúlavedallasutta)
3. Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya. Commentary to
Ch 1, Enlightenment.
4. Saddhammappakåsiní, Commentary to the Patisambhidåmagga, Path of
Discrimination, Khuddaka Nikåya.
5. Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding, and Ch XI, Description of Concentration, Conclusion, XI, 120:
The Benefits of Developing Concentration.
6. Paramattha Mañjúsa, Commentary to the Visuddhimagga (Mahå-tíka),
explanation about the benefit of concentration.
7. Såratthadípaní, subcommentary to the Vinaya, about Vijjå, Knowledge.

The sources which explain the reasons for this conclusion:
1. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Ch 1, § 9, Mahånåma,
about six kinds of ³everminding² (anussati). The Sutta states that Mahånåma,
the Sakya asked the Buddha:

³Lord, the Ariyan disciple who has won the fruit (ågato phalo), grasped the
message (viññåta-såsano), what life lives he in abundance ?²(2
³Mahånåma, the Ariyan disciple who has won the fruit, grasped the message,
lives this life in abundance:
The Ariyan disciple, Mahånåma, is ever minding the Tathågata: ŒHe is the
Exalted One, arahant, fully enlightened, perfected in knowledge and way of
life, one well-gone, a knower of the worlds, none higher, a tamer of tamable
men, a teacher, the awake among devas and men, the Exalted One!¹ Mahånåma,
what time the Ariyan disiple minds the Tathågata, his heart is never
overwhelmed by passion, never overwhelmed by hatred, never overwhelmed by
infatuation; then, verily, is the way of his heart made straight because of
the Tathågata. And with his heart¹s ways straightened, Mahånåma, the Ariyan
disciple becomes zealous of the goal, zealous of Dhamma, wins the joy that
is linked to Dhamma (3 ; and of his joy zest (píti) is born; when his mind
is rapt in zest, his whole being becomes calm; calm in being, he experiences
ease; and of him that dwells at ease the heart is composed.
Mahånåma, of this Ariyan disciple it is said: Among uneven folk he lives
evenly; among troubled folk he lives untroubled; with the ear for Dhamma
won, he makes become the ever minding of the Buddha...²(4

Thus we see that the abiding (vihåra dhammas) of the ariyan disciple without
jhåna-attainment are the six Recollections, not fruition attainment.

Footnotes

1. When paññå has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can be
attained, lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas experiencing nibbåna arise.
The magga-citta (path-consciousness), which is lokuttara kusala citta,
directly experiences nibbåna. When the magga-citta has fallen away, it is
immediately succeeded by its result, the phala-citta
(fruition-consciousness), which is lokuttara vipåkacitta, also experiencing
nibbåna. There are four stages of enlightenment and at each stage
defilements are eradicated by the magga-citta until they are all eradicated
at the fourth stage, the stage of the arahat. The magga-citta of a
particular stage of enlightenment arises only once in the cycle of birth and
death. However, the phala-citta can arise again later on during that life,
if enlightenment has been attained with lokuttara jhånacittas
(Visuddhimagga, Ch III-XII). Someone who has developed jhåna and acquired
³mastery² in jhåna (Visuddhimagga IV, 131) and also develops insight can
attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacitta, lokuttara citta accompanied
by jhåna-factors of one of the stages of jhåna. The phala-citta which is
accompanied by jhåna-factors can arise many times again during that life,
experiencing nibbåna. This attainment is called fruition-attainment,
phala-samåpatti.
Fruition attainment, phala-samåpatti, has been explained in the
³Visuddhimagga², Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot).
The text (Vis. XXIII, 6,7) stating: ³All ariyans can enter
fruition-attainment² can be misunderstood when we do not know the context.
People may erroneously think that all ariyans can attain
fruition-attainment. This is the subject of this Dhamma issue.
2. He lives in abundance, in Pali: bahulam viharåti. He abides with six
vihåra dhammas, six recollections: recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma,
the Sangha, síla, the devas and liberality.
3. Attha--vedaÿ, dhamma-vedaÿ. According to the Commentary, veda, which can
mean knowledge, is here píti-påmojjaÿ (rapture and delight) arising with
respect to aììha-kathå (explanation of the meaning) and påîi, which means
text. Attha is here translated as goal, but it can also mean: the meaning.
4. The same is said with regard to the other five recollections. With these
six Recollections as meditation subjects, the ariyan can attain access
concentration but not attainment concentration (appanå-samådhi) or jhåna.
His unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem conditions calm and happiness.
It is said that he lives in happiness, but, as we shall see, this is an
abiding different from the ³peaceful abiding², arana vihåra, which is
fruition-attainment.



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18141

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 7:32 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2

2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot)
states: ³All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment². This is a conclusion
which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. They stated
that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí (once-returner) are not
able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only the anågåmí (non-returner)
and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. They argued that only the
anågåmí and the arahat could reach accomplishment in samådhi
(concentration). However, even the ordinary person (who is not an ariyan)
may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that he may enter mundane
jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all ariyans, namely, the
sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat can enter
fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna.

The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the
Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the
enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his enlightenment.
(6

We read in the ³Middle Length Sayings² (I, 44), ³The Lesser Discourse of the
Miscellany² (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke with the
layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining
cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with
jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment.

Footnotes:
5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the skill
in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna.
6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ³But in the present case
it is the Lord¹s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its
object that is implied, for which reason ³Experiencing the bliss of
liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing the
bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment²...
The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna.
7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha to
the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of cessation
of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person with jhåna
attainment.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18204

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 7:40 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 4

The Commentary (of the Path of Discrimination) to the Chapter on ³Attainment
of Cessation² (Nirodha Samåpatti, Ch XXXIV) explains three classifications
of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna:

³There are three kinds of insight knowledge:
insight as comprehension of formations (sankhåra parigganhanaka vipassanå 9)
insight as fruition-attainment, phala-samåpatti vipassanå
insight as cessation-attainment, nirodha-samåpatti vipassanå 10
These three kinds of vipassanå are explained as different:
insight as comprehension of formations is paññå which understands
conditioned dhammas, sankhåra dhammas, that is, nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma;
insight as fruition-attainment and insight as cessation attainment are
degrees of insight knowledge which have as their aim to enter
fruition-attainment and progressively cessation-attainment. For the latter
two attainments it is necessary to be able to attain jhåna which is in
conformity with those attainments.²

4. Lokuttara cittas have been classified by way of forty (according to the
method of hundred and twentyone cittas), as different from the
classification by way of eight (according to the method of eightynine
cittas). They have been classified as forty in accordance with the levels of
the five jhånas 11. The reason for this is that there are two kinds of
ariyans: the ariyan who has lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna factors
(of the different stages of jhåna) and who can therefore enter
fruition-attainment, and the ariyan who has lokuttara cittas unaccompanied
by jhåna factors and who can therefore not enter fruition-attainment.
In what way is the ariyan who is a person with ³dry insight², sukkha
vipassaka (without jhåna attainment), different from the ariyan who is able
to attain jhåna, who is jhåna-låbhí (låbhí : possessing)? If the ariyan who
is without jhåna attainment could enter fruition-attainment, he would be the
same as the ariyan who is able to attain jhåna. There must be a difference
between the ariyan with dry insight and the ariyan with jhåna attainment,
who is jhåna låbhí.

footnotes:

9. Pariganhati means to comprehend. This knowledge comprehends the
conditioned realities, sankhåra dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anattå.
10. Nirodha, cessation or extinction, is the temporary suspension of citta
and cetasikas. Only anågåmís and arahats who have mastery of rúpa-jhånas and
arúpa-jhånas can attain this.

Corrections and additions to Issue 2, no1:end of footnote 4: peaceful
abiding, arana vihara, which can lead to fruition-attainment.
Add to footnote 8 (of no 3): We read in the same section of the ³Path of
Discrimination², § 448: ³The first jhåna is an abiding without conflict...²
and so on with all the stages of jhåna.
Old footnote 9 is erased.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37099

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 7:42 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
18. Attainment of Fruition

While he is thus engaged in noticing, his insight knowledge will gradually grow, and soon will again reach the stage of equanimity about formations. If his power of concentration is still short of perfection, only the equanimity about formations will go on repeating itself. But if his concentration has reached perfection, then, in the case of one who does the insight practice of noticing with a view of attaining only to the first path and fruition, the fruition consciousness of the first path alone reaches cessation of formations by way of the attainment of fruition.[46] This occurs in precisely the same way as the path and fruition consciousness that occurred earlier in the consciousness-sequence belonging to the initial attainment of the first path. The only difference here is the capacity of the fruition attainment to last long.

One should also set one's mind resolutely upon the further tasks: to be able to repeat the achievement of fruition attainment, to achieve it rapidly, and, at the time of achievement, to abide in it a long time, say for six, ten, fifteen or thirty minutes, or for an hour or more.

In one who applies himself to achieving the attainment of fruition, knowledge of arising and passing away will arise at the beginning. Advancing from there in the due sequence, soon the knowledge of equanimity about formations is reached. But when skill in the practice has been acquired, the knowledge of equanimity about formations will arise quickly even after four or five acts of noticing. If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else.

19. The Higher Paths and Fruitions

When the meditator has thus become skilled in achieving the fruition attainment, he should resolutely set his mind upon the task of attaining to the higher paths and fruitions. What should now be done by one who has set himself that task? Just as before, he should carry out the practice of noticing (anything occurring) at the six sense doors.

Hence, the meditator should notice any bodily and mental process that becomes evident to him at the six sense doors. While he is thus engaged, he will see, at the stage of knowledge of arising and passing away, that the first objects consisting of formations appear to him rather coarse, and that his mind is not well concentrated. The development of insight belonging to the higher paths is, in fact, not as easy as that of insight belonging to the fruition attainment already achieved by the meditator. It is in fact somewhat difficult, due to the fact that insight has to be developed anew. It is, however, not so very difficult as it was at the first time when beginning the practice. In a single day, or even in a single hour, he can gain the knowledge of equanimity about formations. This statement is made here, basing it on the experience usually gained by persons of the present day who had to be given guidance from the start and who did not possess particularly strong intelligence. Here it is applied, by inference, to similar types of persons in general.

But although equanimity about formations has been attained, if the spiritual faculties[47] have not yet reached full maturity, it just goes on repeating itself. Though he who has won (one of the lower) fruitions may be able to enter into it several times within one hour, yet if his spiritual faculties are immature, he cannot attain the next higher path within as much as one day, two, three, or more days. He abides merely in equanimity about formations. If, however, he then directs his mind to reach the fruition already attained, he will reach it perhaps in two or three minutes.

When, however, the spiritual faculties are mature, one who carries out the practice of insight for attaining to a higher path will find that immediately after equanimity about formations has reached its culmination, the higher path and fruition arise in the same way as before (i.e., as at the time of the first path and fruition), that is to say, it is preceded by the stages of adaptation and maturity. After the fruition, the stages of reviewing, etc., that follow are also the same as before.

Anything else concerning the method of practice for insight and the progress of knowledge right up to arahantship can be understood in precisely the same way as described. Hence there is no need to elaborate it any further.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html#ch7.18

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 7:55 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2106

Here are some sutta quotes I came across which seems to
describe 'phala'. Maybe we should use the correct word - or viraga
sanna or nirodha sanna so that these hidden dhammas will manifest
clearly again.

6. Samàdhisuttaü Ý Concentration

6. Then venerable ânanda approached The Blessed One ... re ... and
said to The Blessed One:

Venerable sir, is there a concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive.?"

ânanda, there is that concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive"

Venerable sir, what is that concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive?"

Here, ânanda, the bhikkhu is perceptive thus: This is peaceful, this
is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, giving up
of all endearments, destruction of craving, disenchantment,
cessation and extinction. ânanda, in this manner, there is that
concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in which, in earth he has no
perceptions of earth, in water he has no perceptions of water, in
fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air he has no perceptions of
air, in the sphere of space, he has no perceptions of the sphere of
space, in the sphere of consciousness, he has no perceptions of the
sphere of consciousness, in the sphere of nothingness, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of nothingness, in the sphere of neither
perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no perceptions of the sphere
of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, he has no
perceptions of this world. In the other world, he has no perceptions
of the other world. Yet he is perceptive.

[url=http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/001-anisamsavaggo-e.html]http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/001-anisamsavaggo-e.html


[6] ..."And what is the perception of dispassion? There is the case
where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a
tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this
is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment
of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.'
This is called the perception of dispassion.

[7] "And what is the perception of cessation? There is the case
where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a
tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this
is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment
of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.'
This is called the perception of cessation.

[url=-http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html
]-http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html


7. Sàriputtasuttaü Ý Venerable Sriputta

7. Venerable ânanda approached venerable Sàriputta, exchanged
friendly greetings, sat on a side and said:

ßFriend, Sàriputta, is there a concentration, to the bhikkhu,
abiding in which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water
he has no perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of
fire, in air he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of
consciousness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness,
in the sphere of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of
nothingness, in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions, he has no perceptions of the sphere of neither
perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, he has no
perceptions of this world. In the other world, he has no perceptions
of the other world. Yet he is perceptive?"

`Friend, ânanda, there is a concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive.

ßFriend, Sàriputta, how is that concentration to the bhikkhu, in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, ... re ... Yet he is
perceptive?"

ß Friend, ânanda, once I was abiding in this same dark forest in
Sàvatthi and abode in that concentration. Then in earth I had no
perceptions of earth, in water I had no perceptions of water, in
fire I had no perceptions of fire, in air I had no perceptions of
air, in the sphere of space, I had no perceptions of the sphere of
space, in the sphere of consciousness, I had no perceptions of the
sphere of consciousness, in the sphere of nothingness, I had no
perceptions of the sphere of nothingness, in the sphere of neither
perceptions nor non-perceptions, I had no perceptions of the sphere
of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, I had no
perceptions of this world. In the other world, I had no perceptions
of the other world. Yet I was perceptive.

ßFriend, Sàriputta, of what were you perceptive at the time?"

ßFriend, ânanda, the perception, `Cessation of being is extinction.'
arose and faded in me with knowledge. Friend, like at the edge of a
potsherd the splinters rise and fade with knowledge. In the same
manner the perception, `cessation of being is extinction' arose and
faded in me. Friend, at that time I was of the perception,
`Cessation of being is extinction.'û

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 7:58 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2099

The advantages to training animitta samadhi, or full on phala samapati, are, as I understand them from my teachers as follows:


Mind and insight are acclimated to emptiness, bringing subtlety to the faculties.
It is true rest for the mind, and true refuge.
Develops concentration in a manner that is very harmonious to the development of insight. All three of these first points contribute to the development of higher paths and fruitions.
As clarity develops regarding the nature of the experience, one will be able to differentiate the "real thing" from other types of experiences that might fool one into believing one has supermundane attainment.
As one gains control over the process, one is less likely to slip into involuntary moments of phala when training for higher path and fruition. This avoids the confusing experience of "Was that phala, or was that magga-phala?" This is a very common problem among Theravada yogis. Naturally this presumes that you accept the standard model and commentarial interpretation.

For myself, I have always found the Mahasi method to be difficult, that is to say inwardly stating and intention for the arising of phala, and then allowing satipathana practice to take you there. Never underestimate the power of anticipation and gaining mind to disturb samadhi. Although I have not done this in several years, the few retreats when I did try to do this, I was never able to achieve a stable long lasting immersion. Recently, I am having more success using a different approach that relies primarily on the development of samatha style upacara samadhi.


I have discovered a very interesting thing about the nature of insight. Insight development resembles an inflatable balloon. When we develop bare insight, both samadhi and insight grow together; the insight is like the physical structure of the balloon, and the samadhi is like the air that fills it. If you allow your samadhi to decay, the insight structure is still there, but non-functional, in passive mode only, waiting for some power to vitalize it. Whatever degree of insight you have developed, if you then at some point, develop concentration to the level of upacara (or even less), you can very easily switch to the mode of insight and the "balloon" instantly inflates. You do not have to reproduce the progress of insight every time. Or at least it does not manifest in the same way. If you have already had the experience of voidness, you can quickly shift gears, by proceeding from release to release, (each stage of relinquishment corresponds to one of the stages of insight I believe) and balanced by good stable concentration, the consciousness naturally focuses the toward emptiness within itself. This is when we have the experience we were speaking of before when the dimension of emptiness appears cognizable, but without full absorption. If you then allow the mind to settle into this state and be magnetized by it more and more, the animitta samadhi will naturally deepen, leading to full absorption of phala samapatti. This is an example of practicing by insight, without mechanically reproducing the developmental process of satipathana. This is my experience, and it is much easier than using the khanika samadhi/ pure mindfulness method of satipathana to achieve the same goal. Satipathana when developed as bare insight simply produces weak unstable absorptive power, and this accounts for the trouble that yogis in bare insight methodology typically have in establishing strong stable phalasamapatti. And interestingly, this also explains, in my opinion, why the Buddha speaks of animitta samadhi, suññata-ceto-vimutti ect. as direct acts of concentration and not as results of the progress of insight. The power of control necessary for this will come from standard samatha training; this is what it was meant for.


Interestingly, the exact same sequence of events happens when we use pure satipathana to access full absorption into voidness. As the yogi reaches the pinnacle of sankhar upekkha ñana, the yogi will usually experience a very clear empty mind, this is an indicator that nibbana is approaching. Next consciousness begins to retract or involute before the mind enters phala. The Visudhi Magga speaks of this and says: "The mind retreats and recoils…" and Buddhaghosa gives the image of a drop of water beading up on a lotus leaf. This is nothing more than consciousness attempting to come to rest withing itself. The sensation can be very subtle but there is this distinct sense of releasing perception after which absorptive phala may or may not arise depending on how well developed samadhi and tranquility are. This "zone of retraction" is exactly what we have been talking about here as sensing or intuiting emptiness in sensory consciousness. In formal sitting meditation it can often be accompanied by some torpidity, and phala will not occur until this is burned up. This "zone of retraction" at the pinnacle of satipathana process will have odd characteristics that are difficult to describe, a certain out of focus quality that is rocking or undulating. The "out of focus" quality is the loss of mind-door perception as consciousness turns away from the clear emptiness previously described, and the rocking/waving sensation is the lack of stability in the mind, which will be notably absent or much less if one has approached along the vector or releasing that begins at or near upacara samadhi.

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 9:21 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2084


You said at one point: “I am interested in hearing your understanding of paticcasamuppada in view of this experience of 'phala'.”


To do so, I had better first describe my understanding of paticcasamuppada as it relates to ordinary experience. For the sake of this discussion, let us set the resolving power for paticcasamuppada at the level of describing the mental processes involved in individual perceptual events.


At the outset of such an event, consciousness and its object, vinnana and namarupa, arise together, conditioned by previous such events in the stream of consciousness, vinnana-sota. The object is first directly cognized as a sensation (rupa), and then through an act of perception it becomes known as an object of a specific kind (nama) belonging to a particular class of sense objects known by means of contact with a specific sense organ (ayatana and phassa) and associated with some particular affective quality (vedana). This act of perception is conditioned by the many previous cognitive events out of which the entire complex of existing mental formations (sankharas), now present within and characterizing this mind, has been generated. Thus the object is re-cognized on the basis of these formations, and so also feeling (vedana) has two sources, arising both from the initial sensation (rupa) and from the mental reaction to the perception (nama).


The above is the sequence of vinnana paccaya nama-rupam, nama-rupam paccaya salayatanum, salayatanum paccaya phasso, phassa paccaya vedana. Collectively this represents the passive-resultant portion of the conscious perceptual event. The very occurrence of this perception, before anything else happens in the next part of the sequence, has already begun to have a conditioning effect on future such conscious perceptual events, because it now becomes part of the complex of mental formations that will be present in future. Through the act of perception, the ground has also been set for the subsequent process of reification of object and observer in the active-intentional segment of the perceptual event.


Next the mind reacts to the feeling that has arisen by craving (tanha), specifically the craving for future events in which the object and the associated feeling are either present or absent. The strength of that craving is conditioned by the strength of the feeling, and also by that existing complex of mental formations, which are themselves the result of similar past events in the stream of consciousness. Craving then provides the motive force for and leads to the full reification of both the object of the craving and the subjective self that craves, and this reification is in the form of clinging (upadana) to these formations as being real in and of themselves. At this point everything has come together to generate another conscious perceptual event in the future, the determining basis of which will be the complex of mental formations which now includes the reified object and subjective self, and the specific volitional formation (cetana sankhara) that has been generated to fulfill the craving. This coming together of conditions is ‘becoming’, bhava.


This sequence of vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadanam, upadana paccaya bhavo is the active-intentional segment that completes the sequence of paticcasamuppada for this particular event. Craving arose because of ignorance (avijja) of the impermanence, emptiness, and unsatisfactoriness of the perceived phenomena and self. The reification of these - the self and the world of objects and the volitional intention that was generated out of craving - are now the causal formations (sankharas) that form the basis for future conscious perceptual events that will arise. Thus we can see that this sequence is equivalent to avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnanam as the portion of the current event that causally determines a future event, just as it was the portion of a previous event that causally determined the present event.


Now, if a yogi is practicing one or another of the many forms of vipassana meditation, this sequence is repeated over and over again just as above. But because the yogi is doing an insight practice, the mental formations that condition perception in the first segment of each current cycle will now include volitional formations related to attaining insight into the three characteristics that have been generated in the active-intentional segments of the preceding perceptual events. As practice continues, insight knowledge becomes more and more firmly established as a conditioning factor of the mental formations.


Of course, the insight knowledge that must become established before the mind will turn to nibbana is insight into all three characteristics, even though the yogi’s practice may focus primarily on only one. In other words, insight into anatta and sunnata is not enough by itself, because tanha and upadana can still find purchase in any vestige of remaining ignorance regarding anicca or dukkha. Likewise, insight into anicca alone or dukkha alone will not suffice. The contemplation of any of the three will serve as an entrance to insight, and mature insight knowledge completely encompasses all three: what is anicca is dukkha, and what is anicca and dukkha cannot be atta and so on. As the intuitive understanding of one develops it leads to an understanding of the others as well.


As insight knowledge into the three characteristics deepens and matures, it gives rise to a profound equanimity towards these formations, towards the namarupa and vedana of the passive-resultant phase of paticcasamuppada. In sankharupekkha, insight knowledge (vipassana-panna) replaces ignorance (avijja) and equanimity (upekkha) replaces craving (tanha), until at some point the generative force of tanha becomes so diminished that the volitional formations (cetana sankhara) barely perpetuate paticcasamuppada from one moment to the next. At this point sankharupekkha lapses into the life continuum (bhavanga), and the content of the next conscious perceptual event is derived from this vast storehouse of causal potency accumulated ‘since beginningless time’ – in other words, it is something not directly derived from the immediately preceding series of perceptual events. The sankhara present in the next conscious perceptual event that arises are greeted with the same insight knowledge and equanimity as before, but this time it is accompanied by a profound realization that this very formation is impermanence, or that it is suffering, or that it is emptiness. With this realization the mind turns 180 degrees away from craving, and paticcasamuppada is interrupted at this point. Turning away from impermanence, the mind turns instead towards signlessness (animitta-dhatu), non-hankering (appanahita-dhatu), or emptiness (sunnata-dhatu), and thus emerges by means of one of these three from insight to nibbana.


This is what is being described in the quote from the Mahavedalla Sutta that Daniel gave us:
"Friend, there are two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs and attention to the signless element. These are the two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind."


When the realization that accompanies perception of the object is the knowledge of impermanence, the mind turns away from craving and there is “non-attention to all signs”, non-attention to all appearance of permanence. When consciousness turns away from the appearance of permanence, it obtains the “signless element” of nibbana, and thus the “signless deliverance” has occurred.


As far as I have been able to determine, it happens the same way whether it is the nibbana of magga or the nibbana of phala. Then after some period of the direct experience of nibbana, the mind will lapse into bhavanga once again, and a new perceptual moment arises as before. The complex of mental formations in this event and all subsequent events in the stream of consciousness now includes the imprint of the nibbana experience, although it may not always be accessible to memory (see my last post for more on this point).


Please accept this explanation in the spirit of service with which it is offered.
Culadasa

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
7/9/11 11:41 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
I have only had 2 "full blown" PCEs that i can remember. These two changed me. All other PCE's have been short lived or probably highly refined EEs. i think a lot of people including myself have been calling those highly refined EEs the PCE, when they weren't really the real deal. Just fleeting glimpses.


Can you describe what the difference is between what you consider to be a "full blown" PCE and a refined EE?

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
5/18/15 3:07 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Thank you, Nicolai, for puting this information together! I haven't read it all and I'm amazed already. But let me describe my preliminary experience with this. I'll probably report further.

I have been playing with this idea for a few days now. Only today I decided to abide in the fruition attainment having practiced jhana right before. What I had done during these last days was to recall the light/energy that appeared spontaneously after 2nd path, but without jhana. The light comes and goes and feels cold if I don't do jhana right before. It probably feels even colder if you're DN-ish like me. Furthermore, the way the light appears to me is not quite by remembering it. What I have been realising is that I have to recall to mind the desirelessness, which seems to be door to nibbana I'm most aligned with. If I bring this to mind, there is kind of an outburst of light from the body part I droped the desire.

Let me describe the quality of these energies, because I think these are worth even if for their sheer beauty.
- During EQ, the image that comes to my mind is of a bright white energy, but it's not uniform. It's kind of moving cloud made of white light, but with the hues of white associated with normal clouds. Some spots are very shiny, while others are normal white.
- The phala samapatti light, if not preceeded by jhana, feels cold and unstable, but has a very uniform texture. It is a continuous white light.
- The light that I see within when I prectice metta is yellow-golden. It has near the same texture as the EQ light.
- The most beautiful energy I ever experienced is the energy that comes when I direct the mind from metta-jhana to phala samapatti. It's a very bright, white-golden energy. It can be best described as a mixture of the three previous energies. It is bright, white-golden, near uniform textured energy and it's mighty strong.
If you can attain jhana with metta as the theme, and have attained a path, then please try this. You won't be sorry. ;)

Incidently, this confirmed to me beyond any reasonable doubt that I have attained 1st path at the date I've been attributing it. At that time, I wasn't sure my cessation experience was significant, because it was very ordinary. However, having experienced this beautiful energy today, it reminded me that I had experienced it before. I thought at the time I was mixing EQ with metta. But what I was doing was mixing the energy after the desireless door with metta. During EQ it's very dificult to practice metta, let alone mixing it with EQ. However, at that time, it wasn't as dificult as it should.

To be continued... ;)

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
5/19/15 10:32 PM as a reply to Blue Jay.
Blue Jay:
What I have been realising is that I have to recall to mind the desirelessness, which seems to be door to nibbana I'm most aligned with. ...
...I thought at the time I was mixing EQ with metta. But what I was doing was mixing the energy after the desireless door with metta.
I'm not familiar with the desireless door.
MCTB The Three Doors
~D

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
5/19/15 10:58 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
I think its fairly evident that he was referring to the suffering door.

RE: Fruition Attainment Experiment For Interested Yogis
Answer
5/20/15 1:41 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Blue Jay:
What I have been realising is that I have to recall to mind the desirelessness, which seems to be door to nibbana I'm most aligned with. ...
...I thought at the time I was mixing EQ with metta. But what I was doing was mixing the energy after the desireless door with metta.
I'm not familiar with the desireless door.
MCTB The Three Doors
~D

The door of suffering is sometimes called the undirected, while the door of impermanence is sometimes called the signless. I think I've heard desireless, instead of undirected a few times, but I can't remember why I've been calling this mental state desireless, instead of undirected. Actualy, undirected might be an even better word for it, now that I think of it. But only now I'm starting to look into this, so what I've been saying is not reliable. I was mostly interested in sharing my experience of the beautiful "energy" that arises when phala samapatti is recalled from metta-jhana.