Regarding the feasibility of direct pointing - Discussion
Hey all,
I found the Hardcore Direct Pointing thread very thought provoking and interesting. I was often attracted to the idea, the idea that it is simply there, facing us all the time. It's a very pleasant idea, very tempting.
But there is this belief that consumes me, that I can't seem to shake off. It stops me from fully engaging with the process of enquiry, it and it goes like this:
EVERY SINGLE TIME I read the story of someone enlightened, whether a spiritual teacher, or someone who claimed to have "seen", and posts here or elsewhere that seem genuine; EVERY SINGLE TIME without fail, you can see that they have been through some preparatory work.
Usually it is drugs (LSD, mushrooms, Ayahuasca etc), often it is some kind of special, out of the ordinary experience in the childhood or younger years. And of course, there are all the spiritual seekers, who have sat for years upon years.
And the ultimate HYPOCRISY is that almost all of them, then go on saying that all the work was unnecessary. That they just didn't know where to look. It seems as if, upon awakening, one has lost the ability to communicate effectively. One doesn't know where to look; and then it happens on its own, and then one doesn't know how to tell others. This may be a language problem, as Alan Watts pointed out, that our minds are too simple. But surely language can adequately convey that WORK must be done, LOTS of it. That it doesn't happen just like that, certainly not for anyone one willing to be seriously looking for a couple weeks or so. Language can convey that. Language is enough to convey truth instead of hypocrisy and the lies.
What's the point of this post? Well I genuinely am desperate for someone to shatter this belief. I can't seem to shake it off. It could be disproved simply through logic, because it is simply an observation, not a "realization".
Do you know anyone "awake" (seen that there is no "self") who has genuinely NEVER been through any special kind of experience, who has NEVER taken any sorts of drugs, who has NEVER done any serious amount of meditation?
Of course now I could turn this all over and say, but look Fabrice... you're being silly... it is "I" who wants to believe this. It is "I" who is putting away the work of looking, holding onto this belief.
Really? Is it really that stupid? That simple? "I" don't believe it, because I also want to see TRUTH as it really is. And the real, absolute TRUTH that I am seeing, is that without fail, every single story of awakened person I have read involves some type of special experiences, drugs, or many years of meditation.
And you might say, "what does it matter", "get started now or you'll never get there". True, it may be a philosophical argument, mental masturbation. But I also want to point out a flagrant DISHONESTY here on the part of the awakened. Like Jeff Foster. God this guy is annoying. He is like the poster child of useless, pointless so called "teachers". He admitted himself in interviews that he went through a 2-3 years period of seeking, meditation, and then goes on to say all that was not necessary.
There just seems like there is nothing we can do. And for those of us who are already so TIRED of dragging this "me" along, it is very depressing. Very depressing to think, that it just won't happen now or anytime soon. It won't happen by willing it. That I understand. How many more years, how many more tears?
It's not waiting that bothers me. My passions and will for the most part have fallen down. I'm useless. I have no will to do any of the things I used to enjoy, making computer games, listening to music and so on. Adyashanti says that is the stage, that in this "falling down" is the flowering of this new state of being. GREAT!
And yet at the same time, there is the story of the drunken guys rowing all night. They forgot to untie the rope. We all know these guys on the Vipassana mailing lists, celebrating their 2nd or 3rd year of daily one hour mediation. Some of them have been doing that for ten plus years, even the MCTB book talks about it.
So much doubt. How do you know you're doing the right thing when you can NOT do anything? And not doing anything might just leave you in the same place, twenty years later?
Sorry just venting off... sometimes it helps..
I found the Hardcore Direct Pointing thread very thought provoking and interesting. I was often attracted to the idea, the idea that it is simply there, facing us all the time. It's a very pleasant idea, very tempting.
But there is this belief that consumes me, that I can't seem to shake off. It stops me from fully engaging with the process of enquiry, it and it goes like this:
EVERY SINGLE TIME I read the story of someone enlightened, whether a spiritual teacher, or someone who claimed to have "seen", and posts here or elsewhere that seem genuine; EVERY SINGLE TIME without fail, you can see that they have been through some preparatory work.
Usually it is drugs (LSD, mushrooms, Ayahuasca etc), often it is some kind of special, out of the ordinary experience in the childhood or younger years. And of course, there are all the spiritual seekers, who have sat for years upon years.
And the ultimate HYPOCRISY is that almost all of them, then go on saying that all the work was unnecessary. That they just didn't know where to look. It seems as if, upon awakening, one has lost the ability to communicate effectively. One doesn't know where to look; and then it happens on its own, and then one doesn't know how to tell others. This may be a language problem, as Alan Watts pointed out, that our minds are too simple. But surely language can adequately convey that WORK must be done, LOTS of it. That it doesn't happen just like that, certainly not for anyone one willing to be seriously looking for a couple weeks or so. Language can convey that. Language is enough to convey truth instead of hypocrisy and the lies.
What's the point of this post? Well I genuinely am desperate for someone to shatter this belief. I can't seem to shake it off. It could be disproved simply through logic, because it is simply an observation, not a "realization".
Do you know anyone "awake" (seen that there is no "self") who has genuinely NEVER been through any special kind of experience, who has NEVER taken any sorts of drugs, who has NEVER done any serious amount of meditation?
Of course now I could turn this all over and say, but look Fabrice... you're being silly... it is "I" who wants to believe this. It is "I" who is putting away the work of looking, holding onto this belief.
Really? Is it really that stupid? That simple? "I" don't believe it, because I also want to see TRUTH as it really is. And the real, absolute TRUTH that I am seeing, is that without fail, every single story of awakened person I have read involves some type of special experiences, drugs, or many years of meditation.
And you might say, "what does it matter", "get started now or you'll never get there". True, it may be a philosophical argument, mental masturbation. But I also want to point out a flagrant DISHONESTY here on the part of the awakened. Like Jeff Foster. God this guy is annoying. He is like the poster child of useless, pointless so called "teachers". He admitted himself in interviews that he went through a 2-3 years period of seeking, meditation, and then goes on to say all that was not necessary.
There just seems like there is nothing we can do. And for those of us who are already so TIRED of dragging this "me" along, it is very depressing. Very depressing to think, that it just won't happen now or anytime soon. It won't happen by willing it. That I understand. How many more years, how many more tears?
It's not waiting that bothers me. My passions and will for the most part have fallen down. I'm useless. I have no will to do any of the things I used to enjoy, making computer games, listening to music and so on. Adyashanti says that is the stage, that in this "falling down" is the flowering of this new state of being. GREAT!
And yet at the same time, there is the story of the drunken guys rowing all night. They forgot to untie the rope. We all know these guys on the Vipassana mailing lists, celebrating their 2nd or 3rd year of daily one hour mediation. Some of them have been doing that for ten plus years, even the MCTB book talks about it.
So much doubt. How do you know you're doing the right thing when you can NOT do anything? And not doing anything might just leave you in the same place, twenty years later?
Sorry just venting off... sometimes it helps..
Fabrice D:
He admitted himself in interviews that he went through a 2-3 years period of seeking, meditation, and then goes on to say all that was not necessary.
It's a fallacy. I guess that to him it probably "feels like" it was not necessary. The facts seem to be, that him and everybody (or 99.99%) who got enlightened have had many many years of inner work.
Fabrice D:
There just seems like there is nothing we can do. And for those of us who are already so TIRED of dragging this "me" along, it is very depressing. Very depressing to think, that it just won't happen now or anytime soon. It won't happen by willing it. That I understand. How many more years, how many more tears?
It's not waiting that bothers me. My passions and will for the most part have fallen down. I'm useless. I have no will to do any of the things I used to enjoy, making computer games, listening to music and so on. Adyashanti says that is the stage, that in this "falling down" is the flowering of this new state of being. GREAT!
This is called "knowledge of disenchantment." Once, during this stage, I decided to go through every desire I had, every dream and scheme that I could conjure in my mind, even fantastic abstract fractal orgasmic kind of stuff, only to realize it was all utterly unsatisfying. There seemed to be no direction to turn to. And then for some reason, precisely because there was no direction to turn to, I might as well enjoy being here, which is where I am anyway. This was the point of the whole experience (or at least that's how I tell the story nowadays).
Dark night -> equanimity.
In the end, it turns out, I can be satisfied with life — but only life as it actually is here and now — it is just my dreams and schemes that are getting in the way.
Keep meditating — have you read Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha?
Florian Weps:
Hi Yadid,
it was in response to the last line in your post:
Cheers,
Florian
it was in response to the last line in your post:
Yadid dee:
This, to me, does not seem like 'just look! there's no self', at all :-)
Cheers,
Florian
Ohh right, I see.
Yeah I was pointing out (ha
that meditating for countless hours on intensive retreat is no laughing matter, and seems to be instrumental in the awakening of many if not most realized practitioners.
@Beoman: nope, I want to. I've read a lot lately and I feel like getting my head around the logical aspect of it first for a while, because otherwise my "looking" often gets bogged down by doubts arising. That or after a while of reflection I might get tired of reflection and just look hehe Long winded way of saying I'm hoping to! Thanks for asking. Are you looking for one poor soul to burn down into oblivion? :p
Long winded way of saying I'm hoping to! Thanks for asking. Are you looking for one poor soul to burn down into oblivion? :p
Fabrice D:
@Beoman: nope, I want to. I've read a lot lately and I feel like getting my head around the logical aspect of it first for a while, because otherwise my "looking" often gets bogged down by doubts arising. That or after a while of reflection I might get tired of reflection and just look hehe Long winded way of saying I'm hoping to! Thanks for asking. Are you looking for one poor soul to burn down into oblivion? :p
Long winded way of saying I'm hoping to! Thanks for asking. Are you looking for one poor soul to burn down into oblivion? :pah that's what i thought. i just wanted to point out, that it's really simple - just go and start a thread there! you are talking about the feasibility of it, instead of just going + trying it for yourself. try it and see if it works...
Here is the feasibility example: Breaking Free: 40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.
I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told ya
Much love!
P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.
I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told ya
Much love!
P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.
Elena Nezh:
Here is the feasibility example: Breaking Free: 40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.
I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told ya
Much love!
P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.
I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told ya
Much love!
P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.
Hi Elena,
I think what you fail to see is that your years spent meditating on courses ultimately served you more than you know to be happier with the realisation that you say helped you achieve freedom. Without those years of honing the flow of sankhara, you would be like Ciaran .
Have a look at the latest blog post expressing the angst and suffering that the initator of RT is going through even though he has seen through the (first) illusion. He is obviously not totally free of the human condition of malice and sorrow, or egoistic tendencies.
There is seeing through the illusion of self (which technically is only stream entry) and then there is refining and cultivating the flow of becoming or the flow of affect/being/sankhara (which will end the fetters that can lead to supposedly "free" people acting like arseholes) so that they are NOT flowing in the direction of misery and egoistic unpleasantness but in the direction of freedom from misery. This is what vipassana practice accompanied by the whole original buddhadhamma package of sila, samadhi and pañña and the whole AF package of practices (these days, I don't see too many difference) helps one do.
Vipassana leads to seeing through the illusion of personal identity eventually, yes. Direct seeing can help one along faster to that goal it seems. I mean, I was directly seeing when I got SE as well as when I got MCTB 4th path. BUT I was also honing the flow of sankhara in a particular direction. And it also resulted in extremely easy access to jhanas and nanas and a whole lot more freedom than what Ciaran has expressed about his realisation. This easy access has led to fast progress in eradication of the fetters, towards AF.
I think the most important reason to practice insight is to see the playing out of dependant origination. Not just to see through the (first) illusion of personal identity. This is just the first step. So to poo poo vipassana practice is to poo poo seeing dependent origination. At your own risk. With or without the illusion of a personal identity, the flow of suffering /becoming continues.
I highly recommend reading The Shape Of Suffering by Thanissaro to get an idea of what I'm talking about. Just seeing through personal identity does not lead one to freedom from all suffering. There was never a self to begin with, yes. But there is the flow of becoming which you seem to be ignoring. Many people here at the DhO are not.
I also advise that any RTer read The Paradox Of Becoming by Thanissaro to get a idea as to what one can do to end the flow of becoming. There is also the Actual Freedom website as well as the DhO wiki which point to similar practices in refining and ultimately (if it bakes your cake) ending the flow of sankhara.
There is no self to find, but there still is the flow of sankhara, my dear. You dealt a little with it in all your years of vipassana practice. How could you overlook such a thing? Haha.......stink of enlightenment makes you do things. I know. ;-)
I am not saying direct pointing doesn't works. I have talked to two yogis who said they got from MCTB 3rd to MCTB 4th path via it recently. So there is something there of value. BUT, make sure anyone thinking that direct pointing is going to be THE only answer to your ills.....read this first:
http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.com/2011/07/demon-theory.html
as well as this blog post:
It seems the leader of your movement also sees that there is more to do. Do you not, Elena? You think your years of vipassana where a waste of time?
:-)
Nick
Edited a few times!
Nikolai .:
Elena Nezh:
Here is the feasibility example: Breaking Free: 40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.
I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told ya
Much love!
P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.
I was not kidding, guys, when I came here and told ya
Much love!
P.S. Send me an email if you are fed up of seeking.
Hi Elena,
I think what you fail to see is that your years spent meditating on courses ultimately served you more than you know to be happier with the realization that you say helped you achieve freedom. Without those years of honing the flow of sankhara, you would be like Ciaran . !
Nick, I value, and it shows everywhere - in my blog, in the thread I posted where I worked with J. from this site, the talk I had with him afterward. It's not even I value, more precise: there is so much appreciation in me for every - every, even smallest and seemingly unimportant experience. For Vipassana - monumental appreciation. If you read that thread, you will see a place where we are talking about it.
Nikolai .:
Hello Elena,
As you see value in your past vipassana practice, then shouldn't this also inform your approach to advertising the possible results of direct pointing? Wouldn't it be a better approach to NOT downplay vipassana practice and insinuate it as useless (which seems to come across in your past posts) and perhaps offer a more holistic inclusive view to your propaganda approach?
:-)
Holistic approach? There are plenty of others who offer this. So if you drawn to that approach, no scarcity there. I only do what I am inspired to do, and to use direct pointing is my inspiration at the moment. Those who approach me attracted to this approach too, otherwise they would not ask, right? I didn't come to J., knocked on his door and started to shout on him that there is no him, actually
hahaha, that would be fun. So just let it be, as a legit choice. No confrontation here, just addition. If you know Shinzen Young, hard-core Vipassana guy, whom I deeply love and appreciate for much guidance in Vipassana in conjunctions with dozen of Goenka retreats, he woke up with direct inquiry. It's on youtube, the video where he talks about it. Yes, its a stream entry, but before you step into the stream, you stuck on the shore, regardless what you are doing - shopping or meditation. And just to get into the no-self state is not enough for stream entry, has to be clear realization that will spill out on your day to day life - clear realization that you do not live your life, no such thing.
Where are you - in a stream or on the shore only you can know if you ask yourself sincerely and listen to the answer, and do not discard it. Honesty can point to what is.
Elena Nezh:
Nikolai .:
Something to keep in mind the next drive-by?
;-)
;-)
watch the sensations -
Excellent, Elena.
You are paying attention. Also have a look at any residual beliefs that direct your "self"-less intentions. They may be directing the flow of sankhara in the wrong direction. Also become aware of how "you" as any affective feelings still persist, even though "you" can't see a self in any of it.
Something to truly ponder: "I" am my feelings and my feelings are "me". What does this tell you about illusions?
Lucky you were sent to the DhO and not the Dhamma Wheel forum. At least here you may take something of value away with you, without getting jumped on by any hungry hounds.
:-)