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Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi

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Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 12:12 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Sleeping Buddha Syndrome 4/21/20 11:59 AM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 1:25 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 1:46 PM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 1:19 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 1:22 PM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/22/20 9:16 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Daniel M. Ingram 4/22/20 9:58 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/22/20 10:03 AM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Tim Farrington 4/22/20 11:16 AM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/22/20 11:58 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/22/20 12:50 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/22/20 11:08 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/23/20 2:35 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/23/20 6:15 AM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/23/20 6:18 AM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 2:14 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 2:16 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 2:21 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 2:26 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 2:29 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 2:39 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Papa Che Dusko 4/21/20 3:24 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 2:43 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 3:16 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 3:19 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Papa Che Dusko 4/21/20 1:23 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 1:35 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 1:48 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 1:52 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Papa Che Dusko 4/21/20 2:13 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 2:18 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 2:54 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Noah D 4/21/20 4:23 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Daniel M. Ingram 4/21/20 6:06 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi spatial 4/21/20 8:53 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/22/20 12:41 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi spatial 4/22/20 6:19 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/22/20 6:29 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/22/20 6:35 AM
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RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/22/20 6:45 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/22/20 9:19 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/22/20 3:21 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi agnostic 4/22/20 4:44 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Tim Farrington 4/22/20 4:53 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/22/20 5:02 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Lewis James 4/22/20 7:09 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/22/20 7:13 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/22/20 7:45 AM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi punto 4/21/20 12:53 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 12:57 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 2:14 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 2:19 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 2:22 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 2:27 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/21/20 2:38 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 3:18 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 3:20 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 3:23 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 3:28 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Mike Smirnoff 4/21/20 4:05 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 4:10 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Chris Marti 4/21/20 4:13 PM
RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi Tim Farrington 4/22/20 6:02 PM
Hi all.


This post is going to be a technical post and is with regard to definitions from Ingram's book. I'd appreciate precise answers from someone who can answer this or no answer at all.


Here's definition of fruition from Ingram's book:

In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no awareness, no background, no foreground, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else. “Reality” stops cold and then reappears.

Fruitions always occur at the end of the out-breath, and reality always reappears at the beginning of the in-breath, which is one of the cool reasons that finding the end of the out-breath can be powerful practice.

 What does it mean to say there is no body? I'm assuing it means there is no body in subjective experience. Right or wrong? Further, it says there is no consciousness -- what does this mean? 

Here, fruition always occurs at the end of out-breath means I think whenever fruition occurs, it happens at the end of out breath. Thus, it may not happen at all out breaths. Next sentence: Reality always reappears at the beginning of the in-breath. What does it mean? Some times reality appears at the beginning of in-breath but whenever it appears, it will always re-appear at the beginning of in-breath? 

Next question: with the above definition, how do you know if fruition is what happened? 

Also, does anyone contest the statement from Ingram's book that Fruition always occurs at the end of the out-breath. Please also seem my post "End of in-breath" -- for more questions related to questions regarding fruition.


Here're some thoughts about Nirodha Samapatti from Ingram's book:
The texts rightly say that, upon entering nirodha, verbal formations cease first, then physical sensations, then the whole of mental functioning ceases when the attainment is fully entered.

However, you may notice that in the three moments before cessation of perception sets in (during the complete power failure–like entrance) verbal formations, bodily formations, and mental formations cease in that order also in three consecutive and distinct moments, with the whole entrance taking about one-third of a second, like someone threw the master dimmer/power switch on sensate reality all the way down and the whole thing just shut off.

Please also note that, like Fruition, there is no experience at all during NS. There is no time, no space, no something, no nothing, not anything at all.


Questions:

What does it exactly mean to say that bodily formations cease? Breath ceases? Meaning breath that goes into the nose? Or that oxygen circulation in the body stops?  Or is it that breath ceases in our subjective experience, but objectively, breathing is still happening? 

What does it mean to say physical sensations cease?  Do protons, electrons, neutrons stop moving? Does neuronal firing stop? Or is it that there is still physical sensations, just that we stop experiencing them?

What exactly is the difference between nirodha samapatti and fruition from the point of experience (or non-experience)? From the above statements of Ingram on Fruition and Nirodha Samapatti, I can't seem to make out the difference. 

Best way to answer questions regarding both fruition and nirodha samapatti would be in terms of 
i) What happens in subjective experience?
ii) What happens in objective experience? (meaning, for the outside world -- or let's say, someone hooked a machine to you to see what's happening in those states)


Regarding Animittam Cetosamadhi: I've not found this discussed in Ingram's book. He does mention the Cula-Sunnata sutta, sort of in the passing (unless I've missed other places where it is talked about). Does there exist an Ingram-style definition of Animittam Cetosamadhi.

Thank you! I'd appreciate answers only if you're at least reasonably confident about what you're saying, and not just random thoughts.I'd also appreciate precise statements regarding the experience of fruition, nirodha samapatti and animittam cetosamadhi, both in terms of subjective and objective experience -- outside of Ingram's description -- from those who know what they're talking about and can put it succinctly into words.Mike.**Edit: 

I'll state, clearly, the purpose of this post -- considering I got a response which did exactly the opposite:

Can people be precise in stating what these experiences are or does one have to deal with constant imprecision -- which can be a way of using religion to just keep you involved in something -- I'm *not* saying this is happening here -- but I've seen this happen a lot -- and one way around this is to be able to be precise about what you're talking about.

Again, I'd appreciate precise answers to the above questions if someone has the capacity for that -- or else, no answers at all. In particular, I'd appreciate it if you avoid rants, suggestions of alternate practices, or similar things.


RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 11:59 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Try the medicine Buddha practice. It may clear things up for you. At least temporarily.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 12:42 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Questions:

What does it exactly mean to say that bodily formations cease? Breath ceases? Meaning breath that goes into the nose? Or that oxygen circulation in the body stops?  Or is it that breath ceases in our subjective experience, but objectively, breathing is still happening? 

What does it mean to say physical sensations cease?  Do protons, electrons, neutrons stop moving? Does neuronal firing stop? Or is it that there is still physical sensations, just that we stop experiencing them?

What exactly is the difference between nirodha samapatti and fruition from the point of experience (or non-experience)? From the above statements of Ingram on Fruition and Nirodha Samapatti, I can't seem to make out the difference. 

Best way to answer questions regarding both fruition and nirodha samapatti would be in terms of 
i) What happens in subjective experience?
ii) What happens in objective experience? (meaning, for the outside world -- or let's say, someone hooked a machine to you to see what's happening in those states

These questions can be answered all at once as they are all really the same question: there isn't consciousness in a cessation or during nirodha. Nothing is accessible at all. No sensations, no thoughts, no experiences what-so-ever. So there are no mind-created phenomena to be seen, heard, touched, tasted, smelled, or thought. To the being to which this is occurring there is no experience at all. Nothing.

EDIT: From this meditator's perspective, the questions about "subjective vs objective" experience are interesting for science, philosophy, and metaphysics but can't be answered by dharma practice.




RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 12:53 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I find the descriptions quite specific already?

During fruition and (in a phased way, Nirodha Samapatti), all subjective experience stops.  That's it.  To me, these are recognized on emergence back from the states, as sensations come back online.

What happens objectively is unknown and unknowable to the meditator, as subjective experience is the only means of "knowing" anything. 

I doubt you'll find too many meditators pondering the objective physical happenings, as trying to construct a story about what happened isn't very supportive of practice, or to put it another way, doesn't matter in the least...

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 12:55 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Even when there is no consciousness in either Fruition or Nirodha Samapatti -- the meditators have still been able to distinguish between Nirodha Samapatti and Fruition. How is that? 


Is there some objectivity some how? Maybe not through a machine? Or please tell me, if you can, how can a meditator, when there is no consciousness in their experience, distinguish between Fruition and Nirodha Samapatti? 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 12:56 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Nirodha and cessation are very, very different to get into, so the access method is how one can distinguish. (That sounds funny to me, though, because it's like asking me how you can tell red from blue. I just know.)

What's the source of these questions? I'm curious.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 12:57 PM as a reply to punto.
Same question as I asked Chris: If all subjective experience stops, both in Fruition and Nirodha Samapatti, how are meditators able to distinguish between the two? And what exactly are those differences?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:25 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
OK. So, the access methods are different, fine. Any difference other than that?


Ingram says, regarding Nirodha Samapatti:

This attainment cannot be said to be either a state or not a state, nor can it be said to be strictly a concentration or an insight attainment, as it is attained by a fusion of both shamatha and vipassana and since it lacks a sensate basis for analysis, meaning there is no experience at all that can be analyzed, as perception and feeling have stopped.

 

Thus, feeling and perception have stopped. Seems like they have stopped even in Fruition. Right or wrong? If they have not stopped, how is the meditator able to know this when there is no consciousness (or really the lack of anything). If they have stopped in Fruition also, why state explicitly for nirodha samapatti that perception and feeling have also stopped?  Why not just say: the only difference is that in accessing the states (and thus, only anagamis and arahants can achieve it) -- and leave it at that?

What's the reason to explicitly state for Nirodha Samapatti: Perception and Feeling have stopped? 


Reason for asking these questions: 

1. I'm trying to exactly understand the difference between Fruition and Nirodha Samapatti on a conceptual level.
2. I am trying to understand what Ingram would have to say about Animittam Cetosamadhi --if at all some thing
3. I'm trying to see what is mumbo-jumbo and non-sensical (and I say this is the utmost respect for Ingram). I like precision, and I don't find the description of Nirodha Samapatti in Ingram's book precise.
4. I want to know how people know that they are in fruition when there is no consciousness. How do they know there is no consciousness during that time? Maybe they just fell asleep?
5. Only a certain Theravada tradition emphasizes that Fruition occurs only at the end of out-breath. In the questions in my post titled "End of in-breath" -- I've asked various questions about what happens when someone is sitting in fruition for an extended amount of time. Again, for the sake of conceptual precision. However, I have received no answers. I'm trying to seek consistency here with regard to "Fruition only happens at the end of out breath and reality re-appears at the beginning of in-breath".  


RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:20 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
EDIT: Im talking only fruition here not the other two mentioned above as I have no clue what those are.

Chris can we not just say its "same as a dreamless sleep". As far as I see it in that Non-state there could be anything, EVERYTHING or absolutely NOTHING, the same way when in dreamless sleep or heavily sedated I simply have NO REMEBERANCE of it. Another good word for it is "Unconscious" utterly. As there is NO REMEBERENCE of IT of course then there is no reference, no time, no space, no me, no this and that , like emoticon why not say Dreamless Sleep Utterly Unconscious hence no experience or knowing anything about it really. As far as I can tell it could be a dirty God's joke to knock me out and quickly rape me and spit me back in as if nothing happened emoticon I mean really when you think of it emoticon 

You "know" it only when conscious again and there is this "what was that" or in case of those who already "know" this experience (those who experienced cessation more than once) then there is "knowing or comprehension" that somethings gone missing (God reference here is really explaining this well for those who never had a cessations).

Disagree? emoticon 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:19 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Disagree?

Yes, I disagree. There is residual consciousness during even the deepest sleep.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:22 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
OK. But perception and feeling cease during Nirodha Samapatti, as is explicitly stated. Do they cease during Fruition also? 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Oh, I see. Didn't know that. Does one get to see this in dream yoga? But then again that would be dreaming involved. How can you be aware of that deep sleep residual consciousness? Have you expereined this? Or are you using science here?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:33 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
But perception and feeling cease during Nirodha Samapatti, as is explicitly stated. Do they cease during Fruition also? 

Yes. But I'd call it "cessation" and not fruition That's much more descriptive.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:35 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
How can you be aware of that deep sleep residual consciousness? Have you expereined this? Or are you using science here?

I have experienced this, and no, I'm not using science. Do you use science when you meditate? Would that help you on the path?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:44 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
OK. If during Fruition too, feeling and perception cease, why the special emphasis, when describing Nirodha Samapatti, that feeling and perception cease? Seems like everything ceases. Why the special emphasis on feeling and perception?

Is it because of tradition? Or because of how you enter it? Or some other reason? 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:46 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I can contribute a bit with regard to your question four. I'd say that if one can't tell the difference between the unknowing event and falling asleep, it probably wasn't a cessation. By "tell" I don't necessarily mean describe it, because it can be difficult to put it into words, but knowing for sure that there is a difference. Because it is. It isn't always clear what happens before and after, because it can be really fast and doesn't really match "normal" frames of reference, but it is definitely not anything like falling asleep. There is an abruptness in going into it. You are chrystal clear and suddenly you are somewhere else, sort of. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:48 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Science may help on the path in the sense that it can clear out incorrect statements -- if they exist.

Same with thinking -- it can reveal inconsistencies -- many of which are put in just to keep people doing what they are doing (*not* saying Ingram is doing this) -- so that they don't think -- but just propagate the religion.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:49 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Maybe there are people who think that they were in Nirodha Samapatti despite obviously talking about a state of which they were conscious? That's what I assumed, that there was due cause to be explicit about it. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 1:52 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
How can you be aware of that deep sleep residual consciousness? Have you expereined this? Or are you using science here?

I have experienced this, and no, I'm not using science. Do you use science when you meditate? Would that help you on the path?
How did this start for you, if you'd like to share, and how did it deepen? I have lucid dreamless sleep sometimes but it probably isn't very deep. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 2:01 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Interesting hypothesis -- and quite possible!
Though, same can happen with fruition: that people are still conscious. But no one emphasizes this "feeling and perception go away" for Fruition as much as I've seen it emphasized for Nirodha Samapatti.  
Or maybe you're suggesting it is more likely that this mistake happens with Nirodha Samapatti than with Fruition. I find that hard to believe though if it's already stated that Arahats and Anagami's only can achieve Nirodha Samapatti.


Further, why is Nirodha Samapatti so important  if the end result is the same -- and only difference seems to be way of access? People can also sit in Fruition for an extended amount of time. Let's say someone sat in Fruition for 1 hour and Nirodha Samapatti for 1 hour. Is the after-glow different, just because way of entry was different and thus, something in some of the body/mind chemistry was different?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 2:05 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Really? We must have very different sources then. I hear it emphasized all the time. 

edit: Oh, I see that you wrote more now. I'll go back to read the rest of it.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/21/20 2:07 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
For example, just look at Ingram's book.
Explicitly for Nirodha Samapatti -- feeling and perception stop.
No such explicitness for Fruition.

Same with many other references I've seen -- Pa Auk, Wettimuny.

 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:10 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I have mainly seen this emphasis with regard to cessations, so I really don't know. I haven't payed that much interest to Nirodha Samapatti because it's not yet accessible for me. 

I don't think it is common to have hour-long fruitions, so to me that's a very hypothetical question. I have no idea what the afterglow would be after that, and no experience (or non-experience) of Nirodha Samapatti whatsoever. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:13 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Apparently Bill Hamilton could get long fruitions -- Ingram says this in his book.
Ingram states explicitly in his book that he can't.


I'm assuming no one on this forum who read my message "End of in-breath" can since they did not want to answer the questions posed in "End of in-breath". Or the other possibility  is that they found some logical inconsistency with regard to "Fruition happens only at the end of out-breath" and being able to sit in fruition for a long time.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:13 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
How can you be aware of that deep sleep residual consciousness? Have you expereined this? Or are you using science here?

I have experienced this, and no, I'm not using science. Do you use science when you meditate? Would that help you on the path?
My appologies Chris. It was not meant to sound rude or putting down. My english coloquial might not be too good. I was genuine in my question as I never thought of that being possible, to be aware throughout the entire nights sleep and all its stages, from shallow to deep sleep. This is something new Ive learned today. So basically there could also be Cessation even in this deep sleep if Cessation is to happen I assume? How can we then tell that this Cessation is not just the deepest of all the deep sleeps? emoticon just kidding here.

But no, I do not use science as such in meditation (no time for that as it gets quickly noted as Thinking).

Again my appologies if I came about as rude. Was not my intent.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:14 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
When you say cessation, you mean fruition? 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:14 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:

Here's definition of fruition from Ingram's book:

In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no awareness, no background, no foreground, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else. “Reality” stops cold and then reappears.

[…]

Please also note that, like Fruition, there is no experience at all during NS. There is no time, no space, no something, no nothing, not anything at all.


Okay, here's where I think Daniel says that explicitly about fruitions. Do you have a different interpretation of that?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:16 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
When you say cessation, you mean fruition? 

I mean the specific form of fruition that is a cessation, which is what Daniel refers to when he says fruition.

The way I see it, the word fruition just says that something has ripened. The word cessation specifies how that ripening culminates. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:19 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Exactly! And here's the point: With regard to Nirodha Samapatti, look up the page on nirodha samapatti -- from where you got the quote about nirodha samapatti -- before your cited quote about Nirodha Samapatti but on the same page where you got the quote about nirodha samapatti, it says Feelings and Perceptions cease. Why signal out feelings and perceptions for Nirodha Samapatti if everything ceases?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:18 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
If you search for my thread about lucid dreamless sleep, hae1en posted a great scientific paper there. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:21 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I see -- with regard to your differentiation of fruition and cessation.

Visuddhimagga has a totally different way of differentiating them (I mean the english translation of Nanamoli of Visuddhimagga).

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:22 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Exactly! And here's the point: With regard to Nirodha Samapatti (look up the page on nirodha samapatti -- from where you got the quote about nirodha samapatti) -- before your cited quote about Nirodha Samapatti but on the same page where you got the quote about nirodha samapatti, it says Feelings and Perceptions cease. Why signal out feelings and perceptions for Nirodha Samapatti if everything ceases?

Ah, so that's what you meant. I see. Well, I guess I thought it was just to avoid repetition of the same wordings. I just assumed that it meant the same thing and didn't think much about it. But then again, I have never had that (non)experience so for me it's all hypothetical. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:26 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
I see -- with regard to your differentiation of fruition and cessation.

Visuddhimagga has a totally different way of differentiating them (I mean the english translation of Nanamoli of Visuddhimagga).

Aha. Good to know.

I don't differentiate between them. I just think it's clearer to use the term cessation because I hear that people use the term fruition differently. But maybe people do that with the term cessation as well? 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:27 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Hm. My reaction in such cases is: there is some thing fishy! 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:29 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Cessation in Nanamoli's Visuddhimagga translation is something like Nirodha Samapatti -- you need all Jhana and only Arahat's and Anagami's can get it -- something like this -- don't quote me on this -- I might be wrong in the details -- it's towards the end of the book.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:38 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Hm. My reaction in such cases is: there is some thing fishy! 
emoticon Maybe you would actually think through every sentence in an 800 pages long book, but in my personal experience it gets tiring after a while, even in a 200 pages long book, and some sentences can just slip by because you need to honor the deadline. I used to be so picky about every wording as a reader (and admittedly I can still be) but now that I have seen the other side of it, I totally get why some vagueness may still remain. Of course, that could just be my own limitations speaking. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:39 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Cessation in Nanamoli's Visuddhimagga translation is something like Nirodha Samapatti -- you need all Jhana and only Arahat's and Anagami's can get it -- something like this -- don't quote me on this -- I might be wrong in the details -- it's towards the end of the book.

Oups... I can see how that can get awkward. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:43 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I get why this is fascinating to people, and there is a natural inclination to think all this cessation, fruition, nirodha talk is bullshit. It's not, though. Cessation/fruition is a path marker. It's an event that says, at a minimum - this is stream-entry. Nirodha is a difficult thing to do and as far as I can tell it signals very little, or maybe nothing.

Here I'm tempted to tell people, "Just practice and see for yourself!"  But that never satisfies, does it?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 2:54 PM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
My appologies Chris. It was not meant to sound rude or putting down.

I wasn't angry. I was just answering the questions. I don't always have a ton of time to reply so I tend to answer in short bursts. Sorry.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 3:16 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Well, I've practised enough -- and that's what brings up these questions -- related to fruition -- where it happens -- etc. I've an event which I wonder if it's fruition -- just that it seems not to happen at end of out-breath. There are the doors (or at least that's one way I can get to it), there was the "aaha feeling of being back to square one" and "aaha feeling of accomplished" when it happened for the first time/first few times -- many of the markers described by Ingram are there. 

Same regarding animittam cetosamadhi + discerning it as anicca -- exactly described in cula-sunnata sutta -- I think I've done that -- or so I think. 

The question of NS (nirodha samapatti) is a serious one -- I really think there's something weird going on there -- this whole emphasis of "feeling and perception ceasing" in NS -- I find it fishy -- just what it is.

Then, usually the logic goes: keep practicing and you'll get there. This logic, which is very common, I don't buy. Buddha taught the Path as a raft -- you use it, then throw it away. That's my approach to it. Hence I ask questions about what has happened and what has not in my experience and the questions I post here are all related to that.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 3:18 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Not every, but certain sections catch my eye. This Nirodha Samapatti thing did -- especially because I found the same thing emphasized in various sources.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 3:19 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I think you have a very healthy approach!

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 3:20 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
This Nirodha Samapatti thing did -- especially because I found the same thing emphasized in various sources.

Though it's got a sort of "woo woo" rep, it's a real thing, MIke.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 3:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I don't know what you mean by a "woo woo" rep.
I have still not received a satisfactory answer. 

Just you saying that it is a real thing does not do it for me.

The same way as when a monk says "Re-birth is real. Just keep practicing. And you will see it." -- does not do it for me.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 3:24 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Mike Smirnoff:
Cessation in Nanamoli's Visuddhimagga translation is something like Nirodha Samapatti -- you need all Jhana and only Arahat's and Anagami's can get it -- something like this -- don't quote me on this -- I might be wrong in the details -- it's towards the end of the book.

Oups... I can see how that can get awkward. 

Oh I see now why Ingram sais "dont use the N word" emoticon (he meant Nimita but can be applied to Nirvana also) And I see why Kenneth Folk might piss off some dhamma people by shoving Cessation, Nirodha and being heavily sedated into same box as Nirvana. All think their own experience is the only true one emoticon (hide ... Im actually out of here, bye bye ... noting, neck stiffness, itching, unpleasant ... smiley alert emoticon  )

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 3:28 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Just you saying that it is a real thing does not do it for me.

I've experienced it. That's the only reason I said, "It's a real thing."

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 4:05 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Super! Good for you! -- is all I can say -- exactly as the first person that the Buddha tried to convert but failed -- said to him.


That said,

At this point, I've found nothing inside me that is eternal -- of this I've a rather strong conviction. An everlasting soul -- I've not found -- and I've a rather strong conviction of this. That anicca, dukkha, anatta are real, I've a rather strong conviction of this. 

But that there is some transcendence in any form (example: a state with no consciousness -- when it's impossible to know for sure whether there was consciousness in the state or not -- and the only answers that I receive are of the form -- I have experienced it -- and thus that is what must have happened -- without any justification beyond that) -- I don't buy it.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 4:10 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
But that there is some transcendence in any form (example: a state with no consciousness -- when it's impossible to know for sure whether there was consciousness in the state or not -- and the only answers that I receive are of the form -- I could feel it and thus that is what must have happened) -- I don't buy it -- maybe I won't or maybe I will -- time will tell.

You're under no obligation nor am I trying, to convince you to buy anything. You get to decide for yourself. You asked some questions and I did my best to give you answers from my personal experience. That's all I've got in this dharma practice realm.



RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 4:13 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
At this point, I've found nothing inside me that is eternal -- of this I've a rather strong conviction. An everlasting soul -- I've not found -- and I've a rather strong conviction of this. That anicca, dukkha, anatta are real, I've a rather strong conviction of this. '

Sorry, I have to ask: Who said anything about eternal? Transcendence?

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 4:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
How can you be aware of that deep sleep residual consciousness? Have you expereined this? Or are you using science here?

I have experienced this, and no, I'm not using science. Do you use science when you meditate? Would that help you on the path?

I'd be interested to hear more about this if you'd be willing to share, Chris.  In some Buddhist traditions this experience is considered to be quite significant.  

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 6:06 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Ok, for those who somehow need more, here goes:

One distinguishes these and other events where things seem to blip out, vanish, or whatever by the following criteria: the meditator, the setup, the entrance, the thing itself, the exit, and the after-effects.

However, while I can clearly spell out all of the details, and do in MCTB1/2, this is not the same as actually being able to do it in practice. It is like wine tasting, where some people can tell oak notes and road tar and cherries and all of that stuff, and some people just can't.

For Nirodha Samapatti, it is actually by far the easiest of the various experiences to identify clearly, standing out strongly from all of the rest of them as it does:
*Meditator: only anagamis and arahats with mastery of the formless realms and the ability to ride a strange line between samatha and vipassana with a high degree of balanced, tranquil, easy control can even think about attempting this, so it is already a strangely small crew. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of people that I personally know that I actually believe have attained to this. If you are not an anagami or arahat with strong technical mastery of jhana and insight, you haven't attained this, so you can remove it from your differential diagnosis. In fact, if you are asking the questions you are, it is pretty much guaranteed that you haven't attained this. The chances of most meditators attained this in their lifetime are so small that it is very rarely something to seriously consider as what might have occurred.
*Setup: You rise with very light, easy effort up through the jhanas to the 8th jhana while mixing in about 30% insight. You come out, and, having resolved gently to attain to NS either when you started the rise before the 1st jhana or resolving now, you chill and do nothing. NS either happens within a minute or two or it doesn't, and most of the time it doesn't.
*Entrance: Thoughts, body and consciousness itself vanish rapidly in an analogue fashion over less than a second. It is a total, dramatic power failure. This is easily distinguished from the Three Doors, as it involves none of these: rapid impermanence, something falling towards you, something falling away from you, or any other Door variant.
*Thing itself: No experience, time, or anything at all. To a person watching, they appear still on their cusion or laying down or whatever posture they are in and will be hard to get to come out of it by external stimuli.
*Exit: Exactly like the entrance but in reverse order, like consciousness and experience powering up again in a rapid analogue fashion. This is distinct from the restart after Fruition.
*After-effects: The afterglow is heavy and powerful beyond reason and oddly long-lasting, typically lingering for 5-24+ hours, like one had taken some perfect drug that was at once highly chill but also produced a great deal of stable alertness. I think of this as what people are attempting when they mix uppers and downers, but the NS afterglow is perfect version vs what people typically get when they do that, which is at once muddled and edgy, whereas the NS afterglow feels, well, sublime, divine, incredibly right. No other attainment has an afterglow this good. It takes the top prize with no close competitors.

Fruition is also easy to identify in theory, but harder in practice, as there are lots of possible mimics, and it doesn't have the extreme marks.
*Meditator: One who has at least attained to Equanimity, Conformity, Change of Lineage, and Path insight stages the first time or is at least a Stream Enterer in Review. It doesn't occur to non-noble ones. So, the entrance criteria are vastly lower than NS.
*Setup: One rises through the stages of insight to Equanimity and attained to Confromity Knowledge. So, one requires much less meditative skill and technical competence than for NS.
*Entrance: Through one of the Three Doors, as describe in MCTB2. These are all quite different from the entrance to NS, which is analogue and doesn't involve the rapid presentation of the Three Characteristics in the same way as the Three Doors do.
*Thing itself: Again, like NS, there is no time, space, consciousness, etc. To a person viewing them, they typically have their eyelids blink and then come out of it clear and seemingly normal if it last a very short time, or, if it lasts longer, they would view them as a still mediator on their cushion without obvious response to the outside world. So, externally, during Fruition that has duration to it or NS, the meditator will appear largely the same, though their breathing may be much slower in NS.
*Exit: The mind restarts very rapidly clear and clean, fresh, bright, present, satisfied, like it has been reset and refreshed.
*After-effects: This bright, clear, refreshed feeling typically lasts seconds to minutes and then fades rapidly, the major exception being the first time a path, particularly stream entry, is attained, after which the after-effects can be more dramatic and longer-lasting, but are nothing like the NS afterglow, which stands out as its own thing.
*dDx (medical abbreviation for "differential diagnosis", meaning things that could mimic Fruition): a momentary blip into a formless experience, any state shift between one state or stage and another, the A&P, Dissolution, and some others. It is very, very common for people to think they have attained to a Fruition when, in fact, they have not. Probably 98% of people I talk with who are trying to determine if they have them don't at all meet the criteria, IMNHO. It is true that plenty of people are relatively poor phenomenologists, making sorting this out difficult, but it is still worth attempting.

As to Animittam Cetosamadhi, or "signless concentration" or something like that, yes, I have read the texts that mention it, and yes, I am aware of it, and the hard problem is that there is not enough clear technical information or defined criteria found in any ancient to get a sense of what exactly they meant by that. I could go into a long quote-fest of the references to it, and it sounds like you yourself would be familiar with a number of them, but they don't help, so far as I can tell. How it relates to Fruition and NS is debated in those rarified circles that care about such things. I personally don't believe it is well enough defined in the ancient texts and commentaries to come to definite conclusions, so I let it go long ago and decided to simply practice well, which I have found satisfying.

As to your own practice, is any of this actually relevant to you? If this is just a mere intellectual exercise, probably just more suffering. Then the question is, "Why?" Why suffer more?

Best wishes,

Daniel

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/21/20 8:53 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

As to your own practice, is any of this actually relevant to you? If this is just a mere intellectual exercise, probably just more suffering. Then the question is, "Why?" Why suffer more?

There was a stretch of time when I was worried about stuff like this. It wasn't a mere intellectual exercise, but maybe I was pretending it was. I was pretty sure I had attained at least stream entry, but I couldn't make it line up 100% conclusively with what I read in MCTB and on this forum. I found myself getting increasingly angry at people like Daniel (sorry!). One day, and I don't know how this happened, I just realized that the quickest way out of that mess was to simply declare myself a stream enterer and be done with it. Crisis averted.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
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4/22/20 3:21 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
hi Daniel,

Thanks for the extended response. I've read it.

This is not just an intellectual exercise. (Even if it were, I'd not completely discount it as creating more suffering because I've used intellectual exercises successfully to get rid of a lot of trash which is cultural/social. As a simple example, and there are complicated ones: let's say with regard to the precept of no drinking: there's the simple intellectual exercise: Traditional Theravadins say a sotapanna does not drink whereas in Zen etc., they can drink -- so where is it more likely that some thing has been added incorrectly -- this kind of intellectual exercise has a lot of value). So, not just an intellectual exercise, but intellectualizing is a part of it.


That said, I'm into experience and below, I describe a set of experiences and I'd be thankful to know if you've a take on it.

2001 - 2010 or so -- reasonably regular Goenka meditator -- it's possible I fell into the dark night in 2001.

The first time I heard of or read about Animittam Cetosamadhi and Nirodha Samapatti was in April 2019 (through the book concept and reality) and there was an intuitive feeling that I get this. Not that I achieved these states, but an intuitive feeling that this makes sense.

2 weeks before reading Nanananda, in March 2019 -- I was reflecting on Paticca Samuppada following Nanavira (this took 1.5 months and I spent 4-5 hours a day meditating + reading -- more so, it was contemplating on the reading) and a commentary on his work -- and when I was reflecting on Avijja paccaya Sankhara, there was a "blip" -- sort of like consciousness going out -- and after the blip, a massive smile and joy, and I found myself thanking all my teachers. At that time, I did not know your work, and this is as much as I noted (and please take it with a grain of salt of course because I'm quoting from an year ago).

Then, in December 2019,. I went on a 20-day retreat at Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw's monastery. It was meant to be a Jhana retreat, but I immediately started experiencing the stages of insight (or so I think). I stopped following their instruction after 5 days (I usually don't like to do this, but that's all I could do then) -- and changed mode to discernment with meditation which is experiencing touch of breath at tip of the nose along with noting stages of insight. 8 days before end of retreat, I hit equanimity and then I asked for Nibbana. Two different kinds of experiences ensued whenever I would turn my mind towards Nibbana after Equanimity: 

1) Mind turning towards the permanent, "merging with something percieved permanent", out of it. Done. Followed by feeling of lightness, joy. A feeling of job done.
2) Entrance into a state where the best possible explanation I can give is of experiencing things just as they are at all the sense doors.



Fast forward February 2020. and I have a month vacation. I picked up Mahasi's Practical Insight Meditation along with Visuddhimagga.
I practiced as Mahasi said. This is what I saw started to happen: I'd rise up to equanimity, then there would be a discernment of
phenomena as anicca, dukkha, or anatta, there would be a "blip" (a breath would come in, eyes shut down -- usually I meditate with
eyes open -- after eyes shut down, a blip, feeling of job done, a feeling of refreshment). I managed to do this at least 200 times.
I don't know if I experienced the fruition doors as you say. **Further, this "blip" seems to occur at the end of in-breath or towards the
end of the in-breath. This led to my whole post "End of in-breath."** During this time, I also go through the whole insight section of Visuddhimagga, passing through and in fact doing some of the exercises as I'm reading them.

[[**Now, I when I say there is a discernment of phenomenon based on anicca, dukkha, anatta, I did not experience any, in your words, something falling towards you, something falling away from you, and I don't know what you mean by rapid impermanence. I have seen your video on diagnozing cessation and I'd not describe my experience like that. I have also seen your video on diagnozing stream entry**]]


The last week of this month, I decided to turn towards Kasina. (Basically, I decided, let me act as though I am sotapanna, even once returner). I think within 3 days, I managed to go up the Jhanas (momentary), then either the formless realms (** or up the formed versions of the
formless realms -- this being more likely**). At this point I could do 2 things:

a) Get out of the neither perception nor yet non-perception and there would be a strange kind of energy and things are back to usual life.
b) Go down the Jhana's, get to 4th Jhana, turn mind to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta of the 4th Jhana, get into the same kind of "blip"
described in the previous paragraph, and be done with it.

**Note in the above that I could only do momentary Jhana but I could turn off the various Jhana factors one by one -- and same for
the formless realms -- where the instructions I used were from the book of Sheila Catherine**Fast forward March 2020, I have another 20 day vacation which I had taken to go to Panditarama Lumbini. I go to Lumbini, pray for Arahatship. But they turn me away because of the virus and I come home. I decide to practice again with my mind wanting arahatship.
Now, I did the following -- go into total "free fall" -- meaning forget all practices -- but with a motivation towards Arahatship and see what happens:
a-) Did some work with agencylessness: basically what I would do is decide to raise either my left hand or right hand, there would be a decision of one of the hands and one of the hands would go up. I found no central decision-maker. I also managed to have some union thing here going on (non-duality) though what exactly I can't describe. Also managed to do the still point exercise of Culadasa and noting that still point/observer is not a permanent ego.
a) Went up the various Jhana's + formless realms, get into the afterglow, and with that consciousness, observe the outside world. There
is a sense that things are being observed just as they are and that whatever is being experienced is just based on the existence of
this body and its agreegates. I note that this state is a formed state, thus, impermanent, etc. I correlate this exactly with the
sequence described in Cula-Sunnata Sutta and the commentary of Nanananda (Concept and Reality).
b) I looked up some Dzogchen (or was it Mahamudra? I don't remember) practices of Lock Kelly. Again, I manage to get into a state of
awareness of things just as they are, then note that this is a created state.
c) Here, I also had a "God" experience. I "turn over" everything in my life over to God. I also "turn over" Nibbana to God. And I find
God sitting right in the center of my heart. Edit: This gives me a better understanding of "Thy Will be done". Also, I note this state: of experience of God sitting right in the center of heart as conditioned on the existence of the human architecture, thus impermanent.

Having experienced a) above, I've the feeling that I've managed something significant down the Theravada Path.

And there was a feeling of some thing massive having been done generally! What is this that has been accomplished (or not) has led to my posts "End of in-breath", "Dzogchen, Vedanta and Saint John of Cross", and this one. And there is a general feeling of being at more ease with "Living by God's will"  -- for the rest of my life, that is. The level that any questions regarding various states, attainments,  bother me *much* less than before, though I still produce these posts!

So, my main questions are related to Fruition and Animittam Cetosamadhi. But Nirodha Samapatti is somehow in the mix because I read Nanananda and your book, and because of the strong focus on Cessation of Perception of Feelings -- and I've never understood, why this strong focus on just Perception and Feelings when there is not even consciousness -- plus even the Pa Auk Tradition talks about Nirodha Samapatti plus that there seem to be correlations between Animittam Cetosamadhi and Nirodha Samapatti in terms of how they are reached (for Animittam Cetosamadhi, I'm talking about the formula of CulaSunnata Sutta, for Nirodha Samapatti, your formula).

Daniel -- any thoughts appreciated.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 12:41 AM as a reply to spatial.
I have taken the route thus far of "acting" as though I'm a sotapanna and seeing, where things go. But I'm not ready to declare myself one as yet.  But thanks for your comment -- I can identify exactly with not being able to match all the criteria.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 6:19 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
I have taken the route thus far of "acting" as though I'm a sotapanna and seeing, where things go. But I'm not ready to declare myself one as yet.  But thanks for your comment -- I can identify exactly with not being able to match all the criteria.

Why aren't you ready? What's stopping you?

It's so much nicer not having to worry about that anymore. Much easier than I thought, too. You just do it.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 6:29 AM as a reply to spatial.
Because just believing that I'm a Sotapanna even if I'm not does not do it for me. I prefer to stand on the side of Truth, whatever that means.
I need to come to one of these conclusions: 1)What I've experienced is Fruition, 2) What I experienced was not fruition and I need to work more towards it, 3). That it was not Fruition and I don't care, 4) That there's nothing called Fruition and it's all made up, just like all the Gods are made up, 5)Maybe something else I've not thought of.
I'm in no hurry. I'm happily enjoying the ride of the "acting" Sotapanna! It's already an enjoyable ride as I am learning more about the working of my mind.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 6:35 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
...  I am learning more about the working of my mind.

That's what matters.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 6:36 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Good practice Mike. It does sound like strong practice and significant progress down the Therevada paths...

For what it's worth, it seems like most people use noting/jhana for a big part of their early work and make good progress, but then they have to transition to something else to really tease away the remaining blindspots and resistances.

Even though people in this stage have nearly instant access to "the state of presence" -- it has the flavor of still being state-like and there still being some sense that "I have" and  "that state". And these people tend to have much less distinction between formal practice and living life... but they notice during practice and during off-cushion life there are times of easy "going with the flow" and other times of "somehow still stuck". There is still some existential tension and very subtle suffering that kinda bugs us and it's really hard to tell the root cause... 

So much of the latter part of practice involves 1) the suffering created by "worldviews" and 2) the tiny reactive patterns that take hold when confronted by not-knowing.

(My opinion on the best text for this stage of practice is Wake Up to Your Life, by Ken McLeod -- which is a fairly jargon-free description of the practice done in a tibetian three-year retreat. Definitely skip over stuff that seems basic, the book was written for all audiences, but the practices themselves are really intended to be used very advanced ways.) 

The suffering of worldviews is how we make some basic assumptions about how life is or should be and then get subtly frustrated when things don't line up. Usually we'll blame ourselves for something we're doing wrong... but often at this stage it's our worldview that is flawed. And most of these worldviews are founded on some simple assumption, like the event being being wrong, or not enough, or the same as it was in the past, or inherently satisifying, or an accomplishment, or an escape. Usually these are associated with subtle proto-emotions of opposition, greed, dullness, desire, ambition, and pride. This is the classic 6 realms teaching and being reborn in realms --- hell beings, hungry ghosts, animals, humans, asuras, and devas -- but for very advanced meditators. It focuses on the subtle psychology of identity.

The suffering of tiny reactive patterns is how, when faced with actual freedom, we instinctively react to maintain some sense of self. We either try to hold onto some idea, or avoid some kind feeling of danger, or enhance some distracting desire, or rush make ourselves busy, or freak out --- and these little reactions occur within about 1/4 of a second after we have a moment when our normal I-based coordinate system falls away. This is the classic 5 elements teaching -- earth, water, fire, air, and void --- but again it's for very advanced meditators. It focus on the subtle existential threat caused by "non-existance". 

I provide that as food for thought. Many times people chase fruitions and jhanas and NS as something that will "fix" the suffering of worldviews and reactive patterns. My approach was to go directly into the worldviews and reactive patterns that cause suffering and untangle them. My mind would fall naturally into jhanas, but from my perspective it was more like my mind was using jhana to avoid directly experiencing the inherent dukka of views and reactions -- so more of a very advanced avoidance mechanism! I found that directly experiencing the inherent suffering of the 6 realms (so to speak) and the inherent suffering of the 5 elements (so to speak) provided what I needed to see why I was still clinging to an "I" and a "no-I".

The state of presence is very seductive and seems to be a refuge, but it's state-like nature is a bit of a give away. The state of presence is still a very subtle contraction, which you can detect because it still is a _state_. 

Hope this helps in some way!


 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 6:45 AM as a reply to shargrol.
It helps me. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 4:17 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Apparently Bill Hamilton could get long fruitions -- Ingram says this in his book.
Ingram states explicitly in his book that he can't.


I'm assuming no one on this forum who read my message "End of in-breath" can since they did not want to answer the questions posed in "End of in-breath". Or the other possibility  is that they found some logical inconsistency with regard to "Fruition happens only at the end of out-breath" and being able to sit in fruition for a long time.

Interesting. The only time I can say that I am confident that I experienced fruition is during Ashtanga yoga practice. Specifically, about 60 mins into a practice session, when I am doing seated postures on the floor. You are supposed to keep your eyes open during practice but I used to sometimes close my eyes as I was in such a deep meditative state and fruitions would occur. The reason this became apparent to me is that Ashtanga yoga is practiced with the breath - e.g. each posture is held for 5 inhales and 5 exhales - and the whole sequence marries up to the in-breath and out-breath. Hence it would be obvious to me that I had a fruition as I would "come to" and not remember which breath I was up to! It was a really weird feeling - like a tiny absence seizure I guess. It is a complete cessation of all consciousness. You are aware that you were "not there" for a moment and then you come back. 

These days lately my Ashtanga practice is really slack - I listen to a podcast while practising and keep my eyes open - so I do not get into a deep meditative state. However, I would like to try again in order to see if I can catch which breath the fruition occurs on!  

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 7:09 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I like the 'analog' vs 'digital' analogy.

I've experienced NS once. Disclaimer: I was under the influence of LSD, so consider this deluded bullshit if that isn't your thing.

Towards the end of the trip I had an overwhelming urge to sit, and quickly rose up the jhanas, formless realms, with an ease that my sober practice can't compare to. I'm certainly not a highly attained person, but being somewhat chemically enhanced, I thought fuck it, I'll try for NS since this is pretty fun.

So after setting that intention, I was playing with the formless realms using some instructions I'd got from Michael Taft's Home Practice Program on them. Going up, coming out, seeing how much stability vs how much insight was needed to deepen them. After a while I kind of gave up, and just rested in a dzogchenish fashion, and then the 'analog shutoff' happened: it was almost like some kind of sci fi VFX of a computer shutting down, the sensations both mental and physical just kind of wooshed outwards and dispersed like mist being sucked into a vacuum, and then... nothing. Then in the same kind of fashion, they wooshed back in.

Now the nothing was the same nothing as cessation, but cessation in my experience is extremely rapid, digital, it's on then it's off then it's on again. Whereas that other thing (whether NS or not) was more of a rich sensory experience leading in and out of it.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 7:13 AM as a reply to Lewis James.
I have had fruitions like that, though, and I'm absolutely sure that they weren't NS. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 7:45 AM as a reply to Lewis James.
My experience with nirodha is that it occurs after abiding in the 8th jhana. If I incline, from that point, gently, in a certain "direction" (not a spatial coordinate, but let's call it "down") then it begins to feel like I'm falling into an endless dark tunnel. All perception fades out and then... nothing. Analog is probably a good way to describe the perceptual tone. This has only happened two times and only when I was very, very, really, really "into" my practice, back in the day, and never since.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 9:19 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Hi Shargrol. Thanks. This is a lot to digest.
I'll write back again when I'm done doing that!

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 9:16 AM as a reply to Anna L.
Thank you! I'd really like to know! 
Mike.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 9:58 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Given that, if I have time to have a long conversation with someone about paths, I come to the conclusion that probably 98% who think they have whatever path very likely don't, or are simply way too bad at phenomenology and applying dharma terms and language in some reasonable fashion to come to anything like a solid conclusion, IMNHO, I personally am even more uncomfortable when people attempt to diagnose paths by internet forum. Obviously, as I run an internet forum where this sort of unfortunate behavior routinely happens, I have a tolerance for a diversity of opinion and action on this, but it is, just that, a tolerance, and a very reluctant tolerance, and definitely never an endorsement. This is complicated by the fact that some of the people who do this somewhat often are in other ways great practitioners who routinely give very useful advice in other matters and whose participation in this forum I value highly. It is a complex world with complex, multi-faceted people.

On other topics, the Fruition breath timing question some dude asked about:

I have had thousands of Fruitions in daily life where I have good reference points for the timing of them, such as while driving or talking, allowing me to know for certain that the Fruition happened as the out-breath ended and was over as the next in-breath began, thus having an extremely short duration to external time.

I have had thousands of Fruitions in formal meditation that utterly lacked those sorts of hard, definite, external temporal reference points, but, given how long the sit lasted and the setup lasted, couldn't possibly have lasted that long, but I had no reference points as to how long the Fruition lasted, and they all involved the world vanishing on the out-breath (at least during those Fruitions when the breath was perceived as part of the formations that made up the entrance, which is countless, as I have often used the breath as primary object) and reappeared on an in-breath with a characteristic breathing pattern and feel to it that is distinctive and essentially noticed 100% of the time.

Lastly, there have been a much smaller number of Fruitions that occured on the cushion that had something external like a sound with definite timing (like a song playing somewhere in the background) that hinted at duration, but, being oddly cautious as I am, none were so definitive that I could be 100% certain that duration of any consequence had occurred, and repetition of these in some controlled way has been difficult, at least for me. Of these, when the breath was part of the entrance formations, it was always ending, and the breath was always coming up when reality reappeared. Thus, I can only conclude that Fruitions appear quantized when it comes to breaths, lasting for some regular count of whole breaths, which may also be 0 (see above), or at least in my experience.

Recently, I have recorded myself meditating over 50 times with a research-grade EEG on and sometimes video that involved at least one clear, high-grade (solidly met all the criteria and had great Three Doors phenomenology) Fruition, and, what I notice is that, for some, there is this marked reduction in a lot of the brain activity that lasts perhaps 2-3 seconds. The breath is always coming up when these end, but, as I tend to be breathing pretty slowly during Fruitions, it could be that the very last part of the out breath and some brief part of the in-breath is cut off from experience during this 2-3 second possible duration.

However, there are numerous problems in definitively interpreting those meditation EEG runs, and I would be extremely hesitant to claim duration based on them. Problem one is eye blink: even with eyes closed, my eyes nearly always clinch somewhat more tightly during the entrance to a Fruition, no idea why, and this looks like an earthquake of motion artifact on EEG, clouding interpretation. Various filtering strategies also can interfere with data interpretation, so one must be cautious.

Second, reduction in brain wave activity might be part of not only Fruition but also some part of the entrance and/or exit, so this also is entirely ambiguous data.

Third, marking the precise fraction of a second of the occurrence of the entrance to and exit from Fruition as they occur is extremely difficult, given what is happening, and precise timing of marks is key for having an ability to more definitely correlate the phenomenology to the neuro (in this case EEG) and thus do proper neurophenomenology.

I am working on these problems with some high-level academic friends who have vastly more knowledge of how to handle these than I do, but the work is slow and tedious. Part of those studies will eventually involve respiratory monitoring timed with the EEG, so hopefully at some point we will have much better data to work from. In the meantime, it is all experiential.

I hope that actually has some practical value rather than just being the basis for further dogmatic argument and avoidance of experience by obsessive intellectual activity.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 10:03 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I am working on these problems with some high-level academic friends who have vastly more knowledge of how to handle these than I do, but the work is slow and tedious. Part of those studies will eventually involve respiratory monitoring timed with the EEG, so hopefully at some point we will have much better data to work from. In the meantime, it is all experiential.

Now that is promising! I hope to see some results one day.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 10:59 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
"only anagamis and arahats with mastery of the formless realms and the
ability to ride a strange line between samatha and vipassana with a high
degree of balanced, tranquil, easy control can even think about
attempting this, so it is already a strangely small crew. In fact, I can
count on one hand the number of people that I personally know that I
actually believe have attained to this. If you are not an anagami or
arahat with strong technical mastery of jhana and insight, you haven't
attained this, so you can remove it from your differential diagnosis."

It really sounds like a  believe system to me or some kind of
military rank, i suppose that monks needed this  particular ranking
system to reward  some who would go through this or that subjective
achievement and the only way of acknowledge it was to get the "diploma"
from the abbot or else  ... It remains nevertheless an artificial ranking
system, about  things of psychic nature, nothing  works like step1 to step 2 to step 3 and on and on ,
, it is not a ladder to be
climb or some kind of spiritual Everest bases camps , who knows what it
is exactly ? Buddha? not so sure ...

i 've been pointed out to this post because i made a post where i was
wandering about an experience i had that appears to match almost
perfectly  what you describe as NS except that i still had what i call a
"bare consciousness" but even though i master jhanas quite well  and
the experience came right at the end of jhanas, i do not have any
"diploma" in my pocket, ah, ah, so it must be a fail i guess.

It is like Jhanas, most people would think that this is related to
spiritual achievement, at least a little but i don't think so, there is
nothing spiritual in jhanas unless you see it this way( by the way, is
there any thing spiritual at all..or the other way round ? whatever) ,
jhanas are altered state of consciousness, that's obvious and any one
who is ready to make enough effort to reach them probably will, what he
believes makes no difference ,  no need to follow a lineage to go for
it, once you know the basics, it is even much quicker and deeper access 
if you don't walk the "spiritual line"!

i like Buddhism,  it is great stuff really but sometimes we should
read between lines and see things totally out of the way those people
was thinking a long time ago, "knowing and seeing" as a great master
said, yes but who  will have a vision with today's eyes.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 11:16 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
"only anagamis and arahats with mastery of the formless realms and the
ability to ride a strange line between samatha and vipassana with a high
degree of balanced, tranquil, easy control can even think about
attempting this, so it is already a strangely small crew. In fact, I can
count on one hand the number of people that I personally know that I
actually believe have attained to this. If you are not an anagami or
arahat with strong technical mastery of jhana and insight, you haven't
attained this, so you can remove it from your differential diagnosis."

i like Buddhism,  it is great stuff really but sometimes we should
read between lines and see things totally out of the way those people
was thinking a long time ago, "knowing and seeing" as a great master
said, yes but who  will have a vision with today's eyes.

Avec tout le respect que je vous dois, mon ami, je suis fermement convaincu que vous parlez à cette personne.


RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 11:24 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
thanks for the respect,  but please in english is better, i guess not much people speak french here ;-)

and yes and...no, i read his book,(  not all i'm afraid,  too much words, ah, ah) and i can see that if  he is   looking things in a "modern way" it's still a very traditional way for me, but it doesn't matter, i don't mind, i just see it differentely that's all

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 9:58 PM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:
thanks for the respect,  but please in english is better, i guess not much people speak french here ;-)


in english then, i am convinced that Daniel Ingram is a person who has in fact made what the Buddha experinced, understood, and taught available to a contemporary idiom through his mastery of both the scriptures and his mastery of the techniques described in the scriptures.


and yes and...no, i read his book,(  not all i'm afraid,  too much words, ah, ah) and i can see that if  he is   looking things in a "modern way" it's still a very traditional way for me, but it doesn't matter, i don't mind, i just see it differentely that's all

How else could it work? We all work within a tradition; the way traditions live is for a new generation to make the realities spoken of in the tradition's scripture their own, down to the visceral, neural level, and to speak in that generations new tongue the ancient truths.

What is your tradition, if I may ask?

(edit) This was rude on my part, perhaps. Mr. Tom has indicated some of where he is coming from in a couple of other posts since coming to DhO. Relevant selections below. 

Fabrice Tom

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/20031989#_19_message_20031989

First i just want to let you know that i never post on this forum  and   that English is not my native language, so please excuse my  French ;-) i practice meditation quite a lot ( 3 to 5 h/day), went to many retreat too ( like the SN Goenka one) but  now  focus more on jhanas ( similar to the one taught by L.Brasington) Also, at the risk of shocking some of you i would like to add that i am not really  into that "enlightenment path " way of thinking , i do not aim toward arahantship, i practice meditation for very personal purpose, rather like an athlete would practice his sport, also i little like a scientist would use his body as a guinea pig and  also to enhance my lucid dreaming practice so i you can provide some very practical information rather than "spiritual one" i would be grateful...thanks a lot

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/20054966#_19_message_20054966
For years i have been training on LD with a very high practice ( mixing wake back to bed and meditation every night ) i know how to get inside a dream without loosing consciousness ( wake induce lucid dream
technique ) in many different ways, i also train in a meditative state or jhanique state with hypnagogia which is a great way to enhance  lucid dreaming practice  but so far never succeed to do it right from jhanas and i wonder if there could be a way to train for LD/OBE right from the jhana state ? any ideas?


I would still be very interested, Mr. Tom, in your response to my question "How else could it work?" than by being, essentially a radical traditionalist who is eventually able--- like Daniel, imho--- to reincarnate a tradition in modern flesh.


RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 11:58 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
I'm sorry for directing you here. I didn't do it to put you down. I honestly thought it was a very helpful clarification. I don't believe in absolute truths that can be accessed, but I find that some constructs are much more reliable than others for the purpose of navigation in our partly shared world. 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 12:50 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Given that, if I have time to have a long conversation with someone about paths, I come to the conclusion that probably 98% who think they have whatever path very likely don't, or are simply way too bad at phenomenology and applying dharma terms and language in some reasonable fashion to come to anything like a solid conclusion, IMNHO, I personally am even more uncomfortable when people attempt to diagnose paths by internet forum. Obviously, as I run an internet forum where this sort of unfortunate behavior routinely happens, I have a tolerance for a diversity of opinion and action on this, but it is, just that, a tolerance, and a very reluctant tolerance, and definitely never an endorsement. This is complicated by the fact that some of the people who do this somewhat often are in other ways great practitioners who routinely give very useful advice in other matters and whose participation in this forum I value highly. It is a complex world with complex, multi-faceted people.


On this forum I have come to realize more and more the extent to which people use words differently. That says a lot, since I have been a communication researcher for almost twenty years. This adds to the challenges of phenomenology itself (not that phenomenology and language can be entirely separated, as they inevitably interact). It is all too easy to either incorrectly assume that people are talking about the same thing or incorrectly assume the opposite, even if the observations are detailed and precise, because it is so tricky to synchronize frames of reference with regard to meditative experiences and phenomenological language. Many of the words that are used routinely are vague as fuck (pardon my French). I'm not talking about the terms asked about in this thread now - I think they are as precise as this kind of terminology comes - but the more descriptive/metaphoric lingo that people use and pick up from each other because they sound like a great description of what we just experienced. Wordings start to have a life of their own. We form concepts around them, all in our own ways, and that interacts with how we interpret sensory experiences. I can easily imagine that someone could pick up the lingo and apply it to something that isn't even on the maps, and from that draw conclusions about advanced attainments. And that's just assuming that we are all honest, which I prefer to believe but sometimes (rarely and probably in the fear nana) can get a bit paranoid about. There is enough information here for someone to fake progress from, to make fun of us or for other purposes, and that can be a scary thought. 

My own few cents about this. Not that I'm always wise enough to shut the fuck up anyway, but I'm working on it (trying to remember to take my ADHD medication is part of it). 

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 4:44 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Hi Mike,

I enjoyed reading about your practice thanks and the responses it generated gave me a lot of food for thought.

The bit that really jumped out at me (apart from the intensity, by my lax standards) was giving everything in your life over to God. I'm not really a God person, but I went through an intense God phase at a pivotal moment in my practice (wherever I'm at, which may be nowhere special).

I was praying for someone who was sick (I never normally pray) and I really wanted them to recover, so I decided to assume that God had already decided to save this person and offer myself to God in thanks to do what he wanted with me (live or die). Although my motivation was somewhat selfish (I wanted to prove that I could heal this person), my wish was sincere (I was willing to die, which seems very irresponsible to me now). Maybe I didn't really think that I would die, but I was as sincere as I knew how to be. Unfortunately this person did in fact die (which was very likely anyway given how sick they were).

After that things took a significant turn. Looking back, it seems that this was the excuse I needed in order to "give myself up", because I was sick of being me. From then on I wasn't really able to take myself seriously any more as an individual with free will, which generated significant insights about choice of practice, identity, views, lifestyle etc.

Cheers
agnostic

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 4:53 PM as a reply to agnostic.
agnostic:
Hi Mike,

I enjoyed reading about your practice thanks and the responses it generated gave me a lot of food for thought.

The bit that really jumped out at me (apart from the intensity, by my lax standards) was giving everything in your life over to God. I'm not really a God person, but I went through an intense God phase at a pivotal moment in my practice (wherever I'm at, which may be nowhere special).

I was praying for someone who was sick (I never normally pray) and I really wanted them to recover, so I decided to assume that God had already decided to save this person and offer myself to God in thanks to do what he wanted with me (live or die). Although my motivation was somewhat selfish (I wanted to prove that I could heal this person), my wish was sincere (I was willing to die, which seems very irresponsible to me now). Maybe I didn't really think that I would die, but I was as sincere as I knew how to be. Unfortunately this person did in fact die (which was very likely anyway given how sick they were).


Cheers
agnostic

Often it is grief itself that takes the dark night deep enough for true surrender to God, which is the point of the Living Flame of Love as it does God's best work. This not according to John X or Bernadette Roberts, who would both to the best of my knowledge be appalled that anyone could say such a stupid thing, but per the unknown author of the obscure little book A Hell of Mercy.

After that things took a significant turn. Looking back, it seems that this was the excuse I needed in order to "give myself up", because I was sick of being me. From then on I wasn't really able to take myself seriously any more as an individual with free will, which generated significant insights about choice of practice, identity, views, lifestyle etc.


There is a well-known country-western song in the US that is called "Sometimes God's Greatest Gifts are Unanswered Prayers."


RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 5:02 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Grief can really be a very liberating thing. (Damn it, I really do need to read that book too. That speaks the language of my subconscious.)

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 6:02 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Hi all.


This post is going to be a technical post and is with regard to definitions from Ingram's book. I'd appreciate precise answers from someone who can answer this or no answer at all.


Here's definition of fruition from Ingram's book:

In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no awareness, no background, no foreground, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else. “Reality” stops cold and then reappears.

Fruitions always occur at the end of the out-breath, and reality always reappears at the beginning of the in-breath, which is one of the cool reasons that finding the end of the out-breath can be powerful practice.

Here're some thoughts about Nirodha Samapatti from Ingram's book:

The texts rightly say that, upon entering nirodha, verbal formations cease first, then physical sensations, then the whole of mental functioning ceases when the attainment is fully entered.

However, you may notice that in the three moments before cessation of perception sets in (during the complete power failure–like entrance) verbal formations, bodily formations, and mental formations cease in that order also in three consecutive and distinct moments, with the whole entrance taking about one-third of a second, like someone threw the master dimmer/power switch on sensate reality all the way down and the whole thing just shut off.

Please also note that, like Fruition, there is no experience at all during NS. There is no time, no space, no something, no nothing, not anything at all. 

What exactly is the difference between nirodha samapatti and fruition from the point of experience (or non-experience)?


Best way to answer questions regarding both fruition and nirodha samapatti would be in terms of 
i) What happens in subjective experience?

Can people be precise in stating what these experiences are or does one have to deal with constant imprecision -- which can be a way of using religion to just keep you involved in something -- I'm *not* saying this is happening here -- but I've seen this happen a lot -- and one way around this is to be able to be precise about what you're talking about.

Again, I'd appreciate precise answers to the above questions if someone has the capacity for that -- or else, no answers at all. In particular, I'd appreciate it if you avoid rants, suggestions of alternate practices, or similar things.

I will begin by quoting the great Zen artist, St. Leonard Cohen, from his theological treatise on prayer, "Suzanne," analyzing the experience of the Jew, Jesus:

“And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him, he said,
‘Let all men be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.’
But he himself was broken, long before the sky would open . . .”


You can’t teach, you can’t preach, you can’t communicate, how to achieve that breaking. To try to “teach” the obliteration of 
samsara in that moment is to miss the point worse than entirely; to attempt to “cultivate” or “practice” that obliteration, ditto. You can teach, and cultivate, and practice self-discipline, temperance, moderation, balance, simple hygiene and simple common sense, intense and apply yourself to the practice of technique with all the talent and skill and intelligence and integrity at your disposal. But I don’t think that is what the people who were originally teaching nirodha are talking about. They are talking about something that only comes with drowning. You don’t renounce your breath, or oxygen, when you drown. You do everything possible to keep breathing. But at some point, there is simply not another breath to take. Everywhere you look, there is nothing breathable; every effort you make, there is no air for your lungs. You don’t teach that; you can’t. That’s nirodha. Nirodha, drowning, cessation, doesn’t mean you’ve renounced the party. It doesn’t mean you’ve mastered the party. It means the party’s over.

Mike, I know that this is probably infuriatingly imprecise to you. But my point is serious: this thing can't happen on purpose.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/22/20 11:08 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Hi Daniel, thanks.
Understood, regarding Fruition timing. Hope the EEG timing experiments that you're doing yield results, which are for the benefit of everyone. 
Mike.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/23/20 2:35 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.

Daniel -- but I need a further clarification based on what you wrote.

Seems like from what you have written, fruition happens at end of out breath, then there are a certain number of breaths in the middle (can be zero) and then reality reappears at the beginning of in-breath. Fair enough. Is this a right interpretation of what you wrote?

Now let's get to Nirodha Samapatti. In Nirodha Samapatti, bodily formations seem to cease (per your book -- though not explicitly stated, this seems to be the implication -- correct me if I'm wrong -- it's also possible per what you have written in your book that bodily formations stop prior to getting into Nirodha Samapatti). What does this mean? According to traditional definitions, bodily formations mean in and out breath, so during Nirodha Samapatti, breath stops. Is this right? 

So, during Fruition, one continues to breathe (or maybe not -- it's possible it stops -- let's say no one knows experientially because the consciousness has stopped), but during Nirodha Samapatti, the breath stops if bodily formations cease means breath stops (and if what you mean is bodily sensations cease during Nirodha Samapatti), that's for sure. Is this right? But then, how did someone whose consciousness has stopped realize that bodily formations cease experientially if that's the only way people came to conclusions in the past? Or maybe someone else saw them and thought their breath has stopped -- but then, how'd they know breath has stopped -- maybe it's just gone really feeble? [[Edit: As far as I recall, even Pa Auk Sayadaw, in his book Knowing and Seeing, says that breath stops during Nirodha Samapatti]]

I assure you this is not just for the sake of intellectual gymnastics. Understanding things intellectually and making sure they make sense is an important thing to do. Traditionally, in many traditions, people would spend years, first reading the books carefully before going to meditate.



RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/23/20 6:15 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I assure you this is not just for the sake of intellectual gymnastics. Understanding things intellectually and making sure they make sense is an important thing to do. 

Absolutely! Better to know than not know. Even better yet, in the dharma. is to feel. I use the word "grok." It's a Heinlein thing. MIke, I love your attempts at analysis but speaking honestly (and taking the risk that this will anger you), it seems obsessive.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/23/20 6:16 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I assure you this is not just for the sake of intellectual gymnastics. Understanding things intellectually and making sure they make sense is an important thing to do. 

Absolutely! Better to know than not know. Even better yet, in the dharma. is to feel. I use the word "grok." It's a Heinlein thing. MIke, I love your attempts at analysis but speaking honestly (and taking the risk that this will anger you), it seems obsessive.

He's a fucking gorgeous dharma pit bull, chris, let the man work.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/23/20 6:18 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Nah, not angry. I'll assume (and I'm sure) you're coming from a good place and so thanks for the feedback! But well, I pose the same question anyway emoticon Edit: Pose the question -- meaning the one I asked Daniel in my last post.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/23/20 6:19 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Yep, I was coming from a good place. Thanks for understanding me, which seldom happens in my house these days  emoticon

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/23/20 8:38 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
How
else could it work? We all work within a tradition; the way traditions
live is for a new generation to make the realities spoken of in the
tradition's scripture their own, down to the visceral, neural level, and
to speak in that generations new tongue the ancient truths.

What is your tradition, if I may ask?

(edit)
This was rude on my part, perhaps. Mr. Tom has indicated some of where
he is coming from in a couple of other posts since coming to DhO.
Relevant selections below. 

Dont' worry that is not rude at all, at least not for me ;-)

ok, imagine you want to learn potery, what will you do ? take some clay and give it a try? could be but hard and hasardous.
Buy some books about potery ? good start, find a potter to teach you ? even better.
Now you are learning potery and  you follow rules i guess, you do what the potter tell you to do and you learn potery isn't it?
Now you can basically replicate what the potter does, great, but wouldn't be interesting to try to develop you own skill, try new things, new shapes, be a little creative, once you know the basics why don't you try do go further in your own direction ? 

oh yeah but spiritual traditions is different stuff, they know all you need to know , just walk the line ...
isn't so?  that's funny because Buddha at his time was a very original guy, he learned local traditions ( an in India that's something huge!)
and went on a complete different direction, as a great master said one day:
"- he researched his own experience
- absorb what was useful
- reject what was useless
- add what was specifically his own"

And i encourage everybody to do the same but yes not walking the line is a difficult path and it is perfectly fine if you can't , most people can't, but it is the only thing i ever done and ever will.

RE: Fruition, Nirodha Samapatti and Animittam Cetosamadhi
Answer
4/23/20 8:50 AM as a reply to fabrice tom.
fabrice tom:

Dont' worry that is not rude at all, at least not for me ;-)

ok, imagine you want to learn potery, what will you do ? take some clay and give it a try? could be but hard and hasardous.
Buy some books about potery ? good start, find a potter to teach you ? even better.
Now you are learning potery and  you follow rules i guess, you do what the potter tell you to do and you learn potery isn't it?
Now you can basically replicate what the potter does, great, but wouldn't be interesting to try to develop you own skill, try new things, new shapes, be a little creative, once you know the basics why don't you try do go further in your own direction ? 

oh yeah but spiritual traditions is different stuff, they know all you need to know , just walk the line ...
isn't so?  that's funny because Buddha at his time was a very original guy, he learned local traditions ( an in India that's something huge!)
and went on a complete different direction, as a great master said one day:
"- he researched his own experience
- absorb what was useful
- reject what was useless
- add what was specifically his own"

And i encourage everybody to do the same but yes not walking the line is a difficult path and it is perfectly fine if you can't , most people can't, but it is the only thing i ever done and ever will.
Okay, true enough. That is actually how i learned writing, just dropped out of college after my first quarter and said fuck it, i'm learning this shit. Which i did, and most of it the hard way. But still, in terms of tradition: i modeled myself for years on other writers, whom i loved, like, basically, I wanna do THAT. Eventually--- and i think this is your point--- my own style did sort of emerge of the flavor of that particular stew, after a lot of cooking at high heat.

My original, um, point that i disagreed with, with you, was you using "traditional" with an implication of constrained capacity in craft, like the pottery student who can only make the pots that his teacher-potter made. My position is that Daniel Ingram, in the Theravadan Buddhist tradition, and even in the Buddhist tradition in general in many ways, is way way beyond just making only what the pottery how-to books he began with say. He is one of those rare ones who actually generates new scripture, which is, traditionally, sort of "disguised" as commentary on the old scripture, but also, as radical commentary, changes the vocabulary and has a revivifying affect that scares the shit out of the kind of traditionalists you seem to lump him with.