Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) - Discussion
When you say EQ "too calm" , could you try next time and feel if it's "too boring" instead?
I find it has this "status-quo" like quality where all is just ok and there is no need to do anything. Not even move out of the way of an incoming stampede.
There is a good reason why EQ is not the final stage to attain to.
I don't find there is any compassion, altruistic joy and loving-kindness in this EQ stage.
EQ in and of itself doesn't care about anything. It's all just ok. Status-quo.
I prefer to treat it like DN = acceptance and just be with it, let it do its thing and inevitably Vanish.
I might also be totally wrong on this as on your level that EQ stage might require some other understanding of it.
Any way sharing is caring
I find it has this "status-quo" like quality where all is just ok and there is no need to do anything. Not even move out of the way of an incoming stampede.
There is a good reason why EQ is not the final stage to attain to.
I don't find there is any compassion, altruistic joy and loving-kindness in this EQ stage.
EQ in and of itself doesn't care about anything. It's all just ok. Status-quo.
I prefer to treat it like DN = acceptance and just be with it, let it do its thing and inevitably Vanish.
I might also be totally wrong on this as on your level that EQ stage might require some other understanding of it.
Any way sharing is caring
Papa Che Dusko:
When you say EQ "too calm" , could you try next time and feel if it's "too boring" instead?
I find it has this "status-quo" like quality where all is just ok and there is no need to do anything.
I find it has this "status-quo" like quality where all is just ok and there is no need to do anything.
Thanks Papa Che, you really nailed it with this one! I thought there was something wrong with me for finding EQ boring, but having someone else point it out for me helped me to accept it. Now when I find myself getting dissatisfied in EQ I just note 'boring, boring, boring' and the feeling passes
Thanks again,
agnostic
agnostic:
I was reading a post of shargrol about DN->SE and I realized that this recent DN is having a lot to do with the self-induced stress of self-diagnosis and fixating on paths and attainments. Without clear and repeatable fruitions it’s hard to know if I actually have SE. Maybe in my desire to believe I was making progress I just misdiagnosed a bunch of A&P type experiences as SE. The fact that I haven’t spent much time in EQ must be a red flag. The fact that kundalini is still so dominant must be another. Maybe depersonalization experiences were just psychological unfoldings. And maybe that whole non-dual metaphysical mind-fuck over the last few weeks was just a back-hand way of me trying to convince myself I’m done without saying “I’m done”. I feel stupid now, but opening up to this possibility seems to have shifted something inside, made me feel more human and vulnerable, and created a new opening into EQ. I’m just going to sit with that for now.
Nice one. I 2nd what siavash said. Here is something I found from shargrol which all of us will find useful and a good DAILY reminder to have really (print it out and place it close to the cushion)
"
Not enough honesty, not enough investigation, not enough acceptance. Meditation basically has three aspects: an honest experience of one's condition and balancing the effort/investigation and the relaxation/acceptance of that condition.
Not enough honesty and it becomes fantasy/spiritual bypassing.
Not enough investigation and it becomes indulgent daydreaming.
Not enough acceptance and it becomes aversive manipulation"
It also helps to see ALL Experience as equal. SE or Itch at the nose, when these are actually here they are here and liberating, and as soon they become a story (Aboutism) they become part of the not-so-liberating self-validating proliferation.I know this can sound strange to compare Stream Entry to the Itch on my head but really
at the end that's all they are; momentary experiences. What does help is ; when in such state then Noting those self-validating thoughts and views about maps and practice and Label them. Like 1-10 sensations/mental states/feeling per second. There could be: Uncertainty, doubt, insecurity, disappointment, self-pitty, wishful thinking, scenario spinning ... and lock these in with the feeling tone and body sensation and you are back in the game; honesty, acceptance, investigation.
Try focus on the daily practice as if you had never practiced before and tomorrow might never come. Be curious about today's practice. Today Only.
agnostic:
One significant distraction I notice is thoughts about how I’m going to describe my experiences here on DhO (note; planning thought and even imagining if you see the forum in your mind). It’s like I want to describe (note; planning thought) the experience before I’ve given it a chance to really happen (note; expectation, guilt, anticipation, unpleasant). It's due to vanity and greed (Note; judging thoughts, self-pity). I read about other people’s experiences and think why don’t I have that, I want that (Note; judging thoght, guilt, self-pity, unpleasant, desire, urge to get) . This creates a greedy mindset for having certain preconceived experiences, which is just a source of frustration and prevents the actual experience from unfolding. I’m noting that too (are you really? )
I 2nd Siavash and think its very normal for thoughts to pop out here and there about this or that, and yes it happens to me too and I treat them like the ITCH on my nose!
You say it yourself above, that you failed to give it chance to really happen and yet YOU ARE NOTICING THAT VERY MIND STATE without really knowing it
(I've marked my commentaries in Bold above)I dont want to push on you a certain method but I think you need something tat really keeps you away from pending time inside the hindrances like "guit thinking, and self-pity thinking and feeling" and see them for what they are and move on.
You mentioned KF above and his counting method, well he has some other tools which could actually be of more benefit to you at this time.
But we are talking about your mind here and you have all the right to do with it as you please of course.
Thanks Papa Che, that is some very accurate analysis/noting.
Actually at this pont it seems like the breath is working now for samatha. After about 10 breaths I start to get into the "beautiful breath" as Ajahn Brahm calls it and the counting falls away. I'm just going to enjoy that for a bit while I can!
But this whole discussion about DhO storytelling has been very helpful for me. I felt like it was my "guilty secret" and now it's out in the open I can laugh about it and it's lost its hold on me
Actually at this pont it seems like the breath is working now for samatha. After about 10 breaths I start to get into the "beautiful breath" as Ajahn Brahm calls it and the counting falls away. I'm just going to enjoy that for a bit while I can!
But this whole discussion about DhO storytelling has been very helpful for me. I felt like it was my "guilty secret" and now it's out in the open I can laugh about it and it's lost its hold on me
agnostic:
Thanks Papa Che, that is some very accurate analysis/noting.
Actually at this pont it seems like the breath is working now for samatha. After about 10 breaths I start to get into the "beautiful breath" as Ajahn Brahm calls it and the counting falls away. I'm just going to enjoy that for a bit while I can!
But this whole discussion about DhO storytelling has been very helpful for me. I felt like it was my "guilty secret" and now it's out in the open I can laugh about it and it's lost its hold on me
Actually at this pont it seems like the breath is working now for samatha. After about 10 breaths I start to get into the "beautiful breath" as Ajahn Brahm calls it and the counting falls away. I'm just going to enjoy that for a bit while I can!
But this whole discussion about DhO storytelling has been very helpful for me. I felt like it was my "guilty secret" and now it's out in the open I can laugh about it and it's lost its hold on me
Interesting that the "beautiful breath" is happening spontaneously for you now. That's what we in the siddha yoga dham used to call "auspicious." lol. (If all sentient beings are to be saved, then every fucking godawful step of the way is, of course, auspicious. Some of the steps are just so much less painful than others. Beautiful breath is close to as painless as it gets.)
Glad we outed you on your guilty secret. I think i missed what it was. Could you endure another round of humiliation and public shame and tell me, or at least refresh my memory? I mean, I missed it. I think you came out with it while I thought you were pissed at me and was lying low.
Chris Marti:
He can handle it. Just look at what he's been through the past few months!
sorry for the caps, i know you HATE THAT shit.
but i know you can handle it.
Dissolution can have an a EQ feel to it when there is acceptance there. That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok".
If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush.
But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above
If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush.
But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above
Papa Che Dusko:
Dissolution can have an a EQ feel to it when there is acceptance there. That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok".
If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush.
But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above
If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush.
But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above
I'm in Re-Observation and agnostic is nowehere in sight, upstream or downstream.
I admit it's not easy to navigate through all this as the self-validation process is very normal for us.
It is so easy to slip into it especially when those self-validating thoughts/perceptions are about this practice.
Part of me is practicing noting while another part is anticipating and desiring attainment of sorts
One can either choke this one with full on noting 1-10 sensations a second in case of not much clarity or if there is clarity to it have a more laid back attitude and keep noticing that sense of sub-self desiring a certain attainment and watch it to death
I like how Shinzen talks about changing gears depending on the terrain. This really asks for being grownup and really look. Do I want to wallow in self pity or do I want to do insight practice? What is this terrain? Is it clear? Is it muddy? Is it lovely? Is it foggy? ... adjusting the gears accordingly.
sorry for unleashing this train of thoughts. I might be telling this to myself really
It is so easy to slip into it especially when those self-validating thoughts/perceptions are about this practice.
Part of me is practicing noting while another part is anticipating and desiring attainment of sorts
One can either choke this one with full on noting 1-10 sensations a second in case of not much clarity or if there is clarity to it have a more laid back attitude and keep noticing that sense of sub-self desiring a certain attainment and watch it to death
I like how Shinzen talks about changing gears depending on the terrain. This really asks for being grownup and really look. Do I want to wallow in self pity or do I want to do insight practice? What is this terrain? Is it clear? Is it muddy? Is it lovely? Is it foggy? ... adjusting the gears accordingly.
sorry for unleashing this train of thoughts. I might be telling this to myself really
Don't worry, telling it to yourself telling it to me is as good for me as it is for you.
Yeah I think it's very common (for me at least) to think a lot about your practice as you are practicing. It can feel like practice itself. It's not if you are not aware of it, but once you become aware of it (as you clearly are) then it's grist for the mill. I think over time we can start to take our practice so seriously that it takes over a big part of the identity we had before. Untangling that is really important (talking to myself here as well).
As I was trying to fall back asleep, my mind felt clear but there was some tension in my body. I realized it was anxiety over a submerged thought that someone might be competing with or judging my practice (which I don’t actually think you are). As soon as I became aware of that thought, the anxiety vanished and was replaced by a warm feeling of gratitude for having someone who cares about and is supporting my practice.
Oh yeah, of course you know, anticipating or desiring attainment is the one thing guaranteed to make sure it doesn't happen. I do that all the time too. We just have to find that nice place in our practice where we are happy doing it for its own sake. As a wise man once said to me:
Yeah I think it's very common (for me at least) to think a lot about your practice as you are practicing. It can feel like practice itself. It's not if you are not aware of it, but once you become aware of it (as you clearly are) then it's grist for the mill. I think over time we can start to take our practice so seriously that it takes over a big part of the identity we had before. Untangling that is really important (talking to myself here as well).
As I was trying to fall back asleep, my mind felt clear but there was some tension in my body. I realized it was anxiety over a submerged thought that someone might be competing with or judging my practice (which I don’t actually think you are). As soon as I became aware of that thought, the anxiety vanished and was replaced by a warm feeling of gratitude for having someone who cares about and is supporting my practice.
Oh yeah, of course you know, anticipating or desiring attainment is the one thing guaranteed to make sure it doesn't happen. I do that all the time too. We just have to find that nice place in our practice where we are happy doing it for its own sake. As a wise man once said to me:
That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok" ... Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush.
Try not to rush.
No competition on this side mate.
Im in a spot where practice is realization and realization is practice.
Within this vast ocean of samsara only that raft is really worth holding onto.
Allthough,
I will keep my distance if that is the feeling you get when engaging with me. Competition is of No interest to me. Pass.
Im in a spot where practice is realization and realization is practice.
Within this vast ocean of samsara only that raft is really worth holding onto.
Allthough,
I will keep my distance if that is the feeling you get when engaging with me. Competition is of No interest to me. Pass.
Papa Che Dusko:
Dissolution can have an a EQ feel to it when there is acceptance there. That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok".
If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush.
But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above
If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush.
But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above
I forgot to say thanks - that's a really nice and helpful way to describe the process.
Tim, I certainly did read that book, but poor Franklin Merrill-Wolff . . .
didn't get the process of perception part right. Neat book, though.
love, tim
Siavash:
If I understand correctly what you are saying, then:
This above things, is only a mental image, or a set of mental images, forming the space, direction, size, speed and etc.
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Thanks.
the subject is the assumed point of the "viewer" perceiving the thing taken as the object
consists
doing their thing
happen
"exist."
Thanks.
Nice one
Papa Che Dusko:
Siavash:
If I understand correctly what you are saying, then:
This above things, is only a mental image, or a set of mental images, forming the space, direction, size, speed and etc.
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).
Thanks.
the subject is the assumed point of the "viewer" perceiving the thing taken as the object
consists
doing their thing
happen
"exist."
Thanks.
Nice one
I don't know what was in Papa Che's mind
But I think you get my point. I just meant that the sense of me (subject) standing here watching a tree (sense object) over there, is just a set of sensations similar to the image of that tree. Only that, the image of the tree seems to be (or coming from) outside, but the image of me looking at tree is (or coming from) inside, and that the concepts that we have of these, like inside/outside/seeing/coming/etc, are also some similar images that are forming such concepts.
But I think you get my point. I just meant that the sense of me (subject) standing here watching a tree (sense object) over there, is just a set of sensations similar to the image of that tree. Only that, the image of the tree seems to be (or coming from) outside, but the image of me looking at tree is (or coming from) inside, and that the concepts that we have of these, like inside/outside/seeing/coming/etc, are also some similar images that are forming such concepts.
Siavash:
I don't know what was in Papa Che's mind
But I think you get my point. I just meant that the sense of me (subject) standing here watching a tree (sense object) over there, is just a set of sensations similar to the image of that tree. Only that, the image of the tree seems to be (or coming from) outside, but the image of me looking at tree is (or coming from) inside, and that the concepts that we have of these, like inside/outside/seeing/coming/etc, are also some similar images that are forming such concepts.
But I think you get my point. I just meant that the sense of me (subject) standing here watching a tree (sense object) over there, is just a set of sensations similar to the image of that tree. Only that, the image of the tree seems to be (or coming from) outside, but the image of me looking at tree is (or coming from) inside, and that the concepts that we have of these, like inside/outside/seeing/coming/etc, are also some similar images that are forming such concepts.
Or it least it seems that way to me.
Finding what's inside or outside is very difficult. Perhaps it's all actually in the same place.
agnostic:
Chris Marti:
DO is that very same process of selecting one object after another from the sense field of all possible objects (including ideas) of which once could be aware at any point in time. The process of selection is what creates the mind stream and the narrative of being an individual.
So experience the result of a selection process? I think I need to hear more about your theory.
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make a new theory, I'm trying to understand DO as it relates to the sense that I have of moving my attention around to create the stream of experience which I conventionally think of as "being me".
Actually “attention” is just a proxy for what’s going on. DO is just one thing being a condition for another, no self implied. There’s no one paying attention and there’s no attention without an object, there’s just objects arising in succession according to DO. The clinging (“this is my experience”) is what sustains the whole process. No clinging, nibbana, just objects arising and passing without the unsatisfactory sense that this is “my experience".
Even in formless jhanas there are objects (space, consciousness, nothingness, even 8th jhana seems to be something), although I’ve only had shallow experience of these.
Thanks for the inputs and discussions everyone. Sorry for the slow response time, I'm in the middle of home schooling!
now that is dharma pragmatic!
love, t
Just a little suggestion; for those interested to read you in a more phenomenological way I know you know it but we don't and for the sake of letting us follow you could you log in a way you write as above After you first mention something like;
Sat once for 45 minutes. Practice Speed Noting/Shamatha/self-inquiry/Metta/whatever.
Strong stiffness in the lower back. Effort was easy. Lots of scenario spinning thoughts. Concentration was strong. Mostly pleasant. Lots of restlessness. Lots of doubt. Was joyful. Lots of itching. The itching felt sharp then it turned into a massaging warble ...
and then include all you mentioned above.
This is up to you of course. It might keep people more interested in following you and giving better tips and suggestions.
Dunno I might be just talking gibberish as I'm experiencing bad case of stiff neck today.
I know you know it but we don't and for the sake of letting us follow you could you log in a way you write as above After you first mention something like;Sat once for 45 minutes. Practice Speed Noting/Shamatha/self-inquiry/Metta/whatever.
Strong stiffness in the lower back. Effort was easy. Lots of scenario spinning thoughts. Concentration was strong. Mostly pleasant. Lots of restlessness. Lots of doubt. Was joyful. Lots of itching. The itching felt sharp then it turned into a massaging warble ...
and then include all you mentioned above.
This is up to you of course. It might keep people more interested in following you and giving better tips and suggestions.
Dunno
I might be just talking gibberish as I'm experiencing bad case of stiff neck today.
It made me laugh when I've heard Kenneth Folk saying "4 hours in Jhanic bliss is the same as 4 hours infront of TV. Its like being 4 hours closer to death" or something like that
Basically what you want to do is Noticing/Investigating. Is it pleasant or not, how wide or narrow it is, noticing other mind states, thoughts, body sensations like hearing outside noise or ear frequency, tactile sensations present etc ..
Basically screw the Bliss and do Noting while in the Jhana If you dont do Objective Investigation you will be easily dragged into the Subjectivness of the Experience.
Its basically same as Dark Night, just on the other side of the Moon if I let into the subjective side of it Im basically screwed but if I keep noticing and investigating it I will get to know it and "awaken" to it. Same in the Jhana.
Basically 2nd Noble Truth; Clinging Leads To Suffering
So, best is to not cling to it by enoying it or by falling into some scenario spinning thoughts/impressions.
I find it very easy to do this when I say to myself that I need to keep noting non-stop (in jhana or not in jhana) ONLY for the duration of my sit. After that I get time off and if mindfull ok and if not mindfull also ok. But on the cushion its hard core.
This is only my view based on my exerience so far and is subject to change and critique.
Basically what you want to do is Noticing/Investigating. Is it pleasant or not, how wide or narrow it is, noticing other mind states, thoughts, body sensations like hearing outside noise or ear frequency, tactile sensations present etc ..
Basically screw the Bliss and do Noting while in the Jhana
If you dont do Objective Investigation you will be easily dragged into the Subjectivness of the Experience. Its basically same as Dark Night, just on the other side of the Moon
if I let into the subjective side of it Im basically screwed but if I keep noticing and investigating it I will get to know it and "awaken" to it. Same in the Jhana.Basically 2nd Noble Truth; Clinging Leads To Suffering
So, best is to not cling to it by enoying it or by falling into some scenario spinning thoughts/impressions.
I find it very easy to do this when I say to myself that I need to keep noting non-stop (in jhana or not in jhana) ONLY for the duration of my sit. After that I get time off and if mindfull ok and if not mindfull also ok. But on the cushion its hard core.
This is only my view based on my exerience so far and is subject to change and critique.
Anapanasat Sutta (MN 118, Mindfulness of Breathing).
Basically the answer I'm looking for is in there:- breathe experiencing the whole body and calming bodily activity (kaya sankhara) and mental activity (citta sankhara). In simple terms, allow the breath to relax the body and mind.
Basically the answer I'm looking for is in there:- breathe experiencing the whole body and calming bodily activity (kaya sankhara) and mental activity (citta sankhara). In simple terms, allow the breath to relax the body and mind.
MN 44 kaya sankhara = breathing. Calming kaya sankhara = calming breathing
MN 44 citta sankhara = feeling. Calming citta sankhara = calming feelings of rapture & happiness
PTS Pali English Dictionary
saṅkhāra
...requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚ citta˚, described respectively as “respiration,” “attention and consideration,” “percepts and feelings,” “because these are (respectively) bound up with,” or “precede” those
saṅkhāra
...requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚ citta˚, described respectively as “respiration,” “attention and consideration,” “percepts and feelings,” “because these are (respectively) bound up with,” or “precede” those
Nicky2:
Anapanasat Sutta (MN 118, Mindfulness of Breathing).
Basically the answer I'm looking for is in there:- breathe experiencing the whole body and calming bodily activity (kaya sankhara) and mental activity (citta sankhara). In simple terms, allow the breath to relax the body and mind.
Basically the answer I'm looking for is in there:- breathe experiencing the whole body and calming bodily activity (kaya sankhara) and mental activity (citta sankhara). In simple terms, allow the breath to relax the body and mind.
MN 44 kaya sankhara = breathing. Calming kaya sankhara = calming breathing
MN 44 citta sankhara = feeling. Calming citta sankhara = calming feelings of rapture & happiness
PTS Pali English Dictionary
saṅkhāra
...requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚ citta˚, described respectively as “respiration,” “attention and consideration,” “percepts and feelings,” “because these are (respectively) bound up with,” or “precede” those
saṅkhāra
...requisite for act, speech, thought: kāya˚, vacī˚ citta˚, described respectively as “respiration,” “attention and consideration,” “percepts and feelings,” “because these are (respectively) bound up with,” or “precede” those
tim
Back in 2010 my main practice was "with each outbreath calming the entire body, with each inbreath calming the entire body". I was enjoying it, had some nice wow insights, then shit storm hit me and I had no idea what happened. All the wow-ness bliss, joy, concentration, calm went to shit. I was in panic.
After that a friend told me about Ingrams Map of Insight. He said my experience sounds like Dark Night mentioned in the MCTB.
I'm just giving you heads up in case your calm goes to shit one lovely sunny day you can always go back to dry Noting if Jhana turns to smelly poop.
After that a friend told me about Ingrams Map of Insight. He said my experience sounds like Dark Night mentioned in the MCTB.
I'm just giving you heads up in case your calm goes to shit one lovely sunny day
you can always go back to dry Noting if Jhana turns to smelly poop.
agnostic:
On a day like today looking after high energy kids in lockdown, I do wonder though how the Buddha would have fared if he hadn't skipped out on his wife and kid.
That a good one! I have been playing with my lively 4 yo son with his Lego and Playmobil for 6 weeks Im done lemme tell ya that! .D Off to the forest I go! (well we do have a nice 5000 sqaure meters forest on our land where I could make a small meditation hut)
"but in samatha I'm framing it as working with the hindrances whereas in vipassana I tend to think "I'm in the dark night" "
I come from Shamatha as my first Buddhist practice. There is more chance to get lost in hindrances during calm-abiding. But that's ok. It's repetition in either case. Get lost dozing off, notice it and go back to the calm abiding breathing
If you are getting lost in thoughts about DN then you are Not doing Noting Vipassana what you are doing is being lost in thinking believing that was Vipassana. If you apply Noting to 1-10 sensations a second there will be No Time for hindrances to set down their foot and take over
But even if you get sidetracked you Notice it ,as with Shamatha, and go back to the object of practice (freestyle noting inclusive the breathing). Repetition.
I think it's great you enjoy the Shamatha and are practicing daily. What I think is not so good is your making one practice "better" than the other
Trust me, things can change where the Calmness of Shamatha can go to Hell one day and you sitting ducks unable to find it no matter what you do. In that case where do you turn to Dear dumbbell painting by numbers Vipassana
No reason to talk yourself out of one practice to give another one a try. All this war between Theravada and Vipassana is just so petty. Both techniques obviously work. We are blessed to have this many tools to choose from depending on where we are at any given time.
I come from Shamatha as my first Buddhist practice. There is more chance to get lost in hindrances during calm-abiding. But that's ok. It's repetition in either case. Get lost dozing off, notice it and go back to the calm abiding breathing If you are getting lost in thoughts about DN then you are Not doing Noting Vipassana
what you are doing is being lost in thinking believing that was Vipassana. If you apply Noting to 1-10 sensations a second there will be No Time for hindrances to set down their foot and take over But even if you get sidetracked you Notice it ,as with Shamatha, and go back to the object of practice (freestyle noting inclusive the breathing). Repetition.
I think it's great you enjoy the Shamatha and are practicing daily. What I think is not so good is your making one practice "better" than the other
Trust me, things can change where the Calmness of Shamatha can go to Hell one day and you sitting ducks unable to find it no matter what you do. In that case where do you turn to
Dear dumbbell painting by numbers Vipassana No reason to talk yourself out of one practice to give another one a try. All this war between Theravada and Vipassana is just so petty. Both techniques obviously work. We are blessed to have this many tools to choose from depending on where we are at any given time.
agnostic:
You are right, I will probably be "doing vipassana" again tomorrow! I started out with a heavy noting/vipassana practice.
It's quite funny, Mahasi Sayadaw basically alludes to jhana without saying it - focus on the breath, note any distractions and come back to the breath, if you experience rapture or see a bright white light (wink wink) note it and come back to the breath.
Conversely, the point of samatha as I understand is to calm and sharpen the mind for vipassana into 3 C's. And following the breath is painting by numbers as well ;-)
I think Ajahn Chah said something about samatha and vipassana being like the front and back of the hand. There have definitely been times when I was starting with one or the other and got to a place where I couldn't tell which I was doing.
However there does seem to be some cultural and psycholgical differences depending on whether one starts out on the path of serenity or insight. I think Kenneth Folk said that in Burmese culture samatha came more naturally, hence more of a vipassana focus was needed to break those golden chains, whereas in the west it's the opposite - we tend to be overly analytical and find vipassana easy hence need samatha to counterbalance that tendency.This has been my experience at least - starting with vipassana got quite harsh, hence now working on "smoothing the ride". Let me know if it looks like I'm getting stuck in any golden chains though!
Not trying to say one is better than the other (or maybe I was!), just reflecting on my experience. However I think the suttas tend to focus on developing samatha first, unless I'm mistaken. You are right I was probably not doing vipassana correctly if I was overly thinking about being in the DN. I just find that the nanas are a bit more mappy and put me in that "where am I now state of mind", again maybe because I'm not doing it right.
You came the other way right? I think I heard you say somewhere you started with jhana and then got into noting. That seems like quite an unusal progression around these parts (not in a bad way at all).
It's quite funny, Mahasi Sayadaw basically alludes to jhana without saying it - focus on the breath, note any distractions and come back to the breath, if you experience rapture or see a bright white light (wink wink) note it and come back to the breath.
Conversely, the point of samatha as I understand is to calm and sharpen the mind for vipassana into 3 C's. And following the breath is painting by numbers as well ;-)
I think Ajahn Chah said something about samatha and vipassana being like the front and back of the hand. There have definitely been times when I was starting with one or the other and got to a place where I couldn't tell which I was doing.
However there does seem to be some cultural and psycholgical differences depending on whether one starts out on the path of serenity or insight. I think Kenneth Folk said that in Burmese culture samatha came more naturally, hence more of a vipassana focus was needed to break those golden chains, whereas in the west it's the opposite - we tend to be overly analytical and find vipassana easy hence need samatha to counterbalance that tendency.This has been my experience at least - starting with vipassana got quite harsh, hence now working on "smoothing the ride". Let me know if it looks like I'm getting stuck in any golden chains though!
Not trying to say one is better than the other (or maybe I was!), just reflecting on my experience. However I think the suttas tend to focus on developing samatha first, unless I'm mistaken. You are right I was probably not doing vipassana correctly if I was overly thinking about being in the DN. I just find that the nanas are a bit more mappy and put me in that "where am I now state of mind", again maybe because I'm not doing it right.
You came the other way right? I think I heard you say somewhere you started with jhana and then got into noting. That seems like quite an unusal progression around these parts (not in a bad way at all).
Yes I totally got the other way around. Back in 2009 I was daily practicing Ki-Breathing as thought by a Aikido Master Koichi Tohei ! I practiced up to 3 times a day. Its a very loud way of practicing and one can hear the breathing well. Right now I find this was one of the reasons I didnt get lost in thinking much as I could hear myself well and I am guitar player so hearing in my case is of great benefit in practice (wink wink, noting ALOUD
).Back then I knew NOTHING about Buddhism and its practices (well maybe I had some notion of those monks sitting in somthing called meditation but had no knowledge at all as what they were doing).
Just later on in 2011 have a found out that the state I was in at one stage was 5th Samatha Jhana. It was Nokolai from this forum that told me that. I just knew my body went gone into a vast dark space and there was a tiny sense of self in the middle of that huge and VERY SAFE vastness of that dark space. I have NEVER expereinces such safety in my entire life
Yes, it was a WOW and I wanted it for myself which resulted in me not being able to hold it for long.After that experince I kind of looked on for some other methods of self-help (as thats what I was doing, in hope to get myself rid of my own suffering in daily life, stress, paranoia, anger, agitation, misery ... ). Found a practice called Shamatha Calm-abiding and did daily meditation with it since May 2010 to 2012. Got me all the way to DN (had no idea what the heck happened with my calm and sharp shamatha concentration, all just went to hell ...ehm, had no idea about maps and what Dissolution was). I even continued with sitting and managed to get into early EQ which felt really good so I clinged to it in hope to stay there and guess what
was catapulted streight into an even worse Re-observation which ended up in me quiting with any sort of practice since 2012 to February 2019 when I started working with Kenneth Folk (noting aloud) over Skype as I was just sick and tired of being stuck in the DN. It was either I plow through it all or die trying. Any way, Im now here on DhO writing this to you
its 2020 and my journey goes on. Right now I can see both Noting and Jhana taking place in my practice. Even Jhana absorption is part of the Noting aparatus. It comes and goes at this stage. Its not there all the time. During my start up this year there was more absorption going on during the sit but all very Noticable and the sitting posture was always present. These are likely material jhanas. I care little what they are. Also I care little about what stage Im in but will notice certain things like extreme stiffness in the body or body jerks happening all the time
Its kind of hard not to know where these belong Still all thinking during the practice is noted as "thinking" or "pondering" and then move on.It really is helpful during the practice to assume that EVERYTHING is MAKYO and to be noted. The worst Maky are the ones about the Buddha, Sutras and Maps
I would suggest rather sitting shorter sessions but do them hard core 1-10 sensations a second then sit long periods getting lost in some ponderings. Hence me not yet increasing my 45 minute daily practice until it catches fire on its own.
From my Shamatha/calm-abiding/anapanasatti with the attention on the "whole" body breathing can lead through the whole stages of insights without the need of knowing them or thinking about them, even if Jhanic factors are present.
Dissolution will happen anyway I think and here it's good to have the knowledge of Maps. Center focus has utterly dissolved. Can't be found anymore. Cool. You know it's nothing other than Dissolution. So where is the focus? Periffery. Good. Observe the periffery of whole body breathing (chilled skin, relaxation on the long outbreathing, heavy long outbreath, stuff in center vanishing).
As long one doesn't freak out when Dissolution destroys the glory of the A&P it's all good and I see no reason in this technique not leading all the way to SE. (I can't talk about 2nd path as I don't know it but could work there as well. Why not?).
Ah yes. In case the rest of DN opens up then making sure to recognize any clinging to EQ after Re-obs. is important and to let go of that.
If I knew all this back in my Shamatha days when I had no knowledge of the Maps I'm almost certain I would hit the SE then. Well, it's never too late
Dissolution will happen anyway I think and here it's good to have the knowledge of Maps. Center focus has utterly dissolved. Can't be found anymore. Cool. You know it's nothing other than Dissolution. So where is the focus? Periffery. Good. Observe the periffery of whole body breathing (chilled skin, relaxation on the long outbreathing, heavy long outbreath, stuff in center vanishing).
As long one doesn't freak out when Dissolution destroys the glory of the A&P it's all good and I see no reason in this technique not leading all the way to SE. (I can't talk about 2nd path as I don't know it but could work there as well. Why not?).
Ah yes. In case the rest of DN opens up then making sure to recognize any clinging to EQ after Re-obs. is important and to let go of that.
If I knew all this back in my Shamatha days when I had no knowledge of the Maps I'm almost certain I would hit the SE then. Well, it's never too late
I dont know if this will "speak" to you but try and go to the end of this video where Kenneth Folk talks about the two focuses; 1. Experiental Focus and 2. Narrative Focus. We all know this by now but its refreshing to hear it again. We really ought to cherish that Experiental Focus especially when Narratives about practice, God, Jhana, DN, Attainment, Stage, Maps ... takes over. Its good to be able to differentiate it this simple way (2 chategories). Give it a shot if you have time and interest. I really think this is the most important aspect of this path. What Ingram explains again and again in his book as "dont get lost in the content of the mind! Note it instead, ALL OF IT!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Agp8h8nJZA
Please excuse my babbling you can tell me to shut it anytime!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Agp8h8nJZA
Please excuse my babbling
you can tell me to shut it anytime!
Papa Che Dusko:
I dont know if this will "speak" to you but try and go to the end of this video where Kenneth Folk talks about the two focuses; 1. Experiental Focus and 2. Narrative Focus. We all know this by now but its refreshing to hear it again. We really ought to cherish that Experiental Focus especially when Narratives about practice, God, Jhana, DN, Attainment, Stage, Maps ... takes over. Its good to be able to differentiate it this simple way (2 chategories). Give it a shot if you have time and interest. I really think this is the most important aspect of this path. What Ingram explains again and again in his book as "dont get lost in the content of the mind! Note it instead, ALL OF IT!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Agp8h8nJZA
Please excuse my babbling you can tell me to shut it anytime!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Agp8h8nJZA
Please excuse my babbling
you can tell me to shut it anytime!No problem Papa Che, I really appreciate your insights. It's interesting to see different ways of getting to the same place. It seems that certain maps appeal to me more at different times. I think I maxed out on insight a bit and I'm in more of a physical processing stage at the moment. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. I seem to keep arriving in this low equanimity place and there's like a go left/right sign. To the left is jhana, with the mind's light starting to flicker (nimitta?). To the right is fruition/cessation, with particles of experience (sankhara?) starting to slow right down and that "uh uh, here it comes feeling". And then I bounce myself out of it by thinking about it LOL. Worth noting I'm sure
Them little buggers!!!
I had my lil 4 yo tell me today "DADDY IF YOU DONT DO AS I SAY I WILL TAKE ALL YOUR GUITARS AWAY FROM YOU!!!" whooaa!
Basically I fall short at times when he doesnt listen and Im running on low power mode telling him " If you dont listen I will take away all your Playmobil toys and give it to you when you are good again!" So yes, they certainly are copy-cats and do as we do.
But hey, we do our best and its important to make up afterwards and give hugs and say "are we friends again "
I had my lil 4 yo tell me today "DADDY IF YOU DONT DO AS I SAY I WILL TAKE ALL YOUR GUITARS AWAY FROM YOU!!!"
whooaa! Basically I fall short at times when he doesnt listen and Im running on low power mode telling him " If you dont listen I will take away all your Playmobil toys and give it to you when you are good again!"
So yes, they certainly are copy-cats and do as we do. But hey, we do our best and its important to make up afterwards and give hugs and say "are we friends again
"
Yeah low power mode + kids is a killer combo. They definitely know which buttons to push to get our ATTENTION ... there's probably a lesson in there for us
agnostic:
Yeah low power mode + kids is a killer combo. They definitely know which buttons to push to get our ATTENTION ... there's probably a lesson in there for us
Attention is the manna-food from heaven that we give everyone--- that's all that guy who spent so much time with the bull in the zen oxherding series brings back to the city, in the end, after zero: bliss-bestowing hands overflowing with attention's touch.
Human kids in their almost demonic capacity to get and keep our attention are simply exercising their greedy little right to thrive if possible, and to survive in any case.
Lesson? . . . There will always be someone smarter than us who can push our buttons and get our attention?
love you, amigo, glad to see you hard at work here.
love, tim
Tim Farrington:
Human kids in their almost demonic capacity to get and keep our attention are simply exercising their greedy little right to thrive if possible, and to survive in any case.
So true my friend. Unless our parents happened to be tens, I think what a lot of us crave the most is a little attention, if only from ourselves at this point
Papa Che Dusko:
Them little buggers!!!
I had my lil 4 yo tell me today "DADDY IF YOU DONT DO AS I SAY I WILL TAKE ALL YOUR GUITARS AWAY FROM YOU!!!" whooaa!
Basically I fall short at times when he doesnt listen and Im running on low power mode telling him " If you dont listen I will take away all your Playmobil toys and give it to you when you are good again!" So yes, they certainly are copy-cats and do as we do.
But hey, we do our best and its important to make up afterwards and give hugs and say "are we friends again "
I had my lil 4 yo tell me today "DADDY IF YOU DONT DO AS I SAY I WILL TAKE ALL YOUR GUITARS AWAY FROM YOU!!!"
whooaa! Basically I fall short at times when he doesnt listen and Im running on low power mode telling him " If you dont listen I will take away all your Playmobil toys and give it to you when you are good again!"
So yes, they certainly are copy-cats and do as we do. But hey, we do our best and its important to make up afterwards and give hugs and say "are we friends again
" Let us know when he does his first smiley-face! Or gets stream entry.hugs, tim
shargrol
Focusing on the breath is fine, but its almost more important to stay interested in the hindrances themselves that are showing up. Those hindrances are actually the teacher. You don't need to silence hindrances by drowning it out with a focus on breath. In fact, a really good approach is to hold both the hindrances and the breath in the same awareness and get interested in both. People who do multi-week retreats don't have perfect minds with no hindrances, but rather they create a big enough space for the hindrances so that they arise and pass in awareness, like a tiny kid on a giant stage in a huge auditorium. And they don't need to ignore the kid either, but rather put a spotlight on the kid and really appreciate the kid's performance, so to speak.
Hope this helps in some way. I struggled with this stuff for a few decades before I realizing that getting interested in how the mind gets seduced by hindrances is actually the easy and interesting and wisdom-creating and fastest path forward.
...
Self forgiveness is really the heart of this thing. Mediation get's described as some kind of "I'll get smarter and see reality" thing, but that's just the bait and hook. In fact, what meditation really becomes is "I knew I was fucking myself up, but I never understood how until I sat with myself for a while... and now I realize that I used to fuck myself up the same way that everyone else is fucking themselves up." That's where compassion really starts to become real and the idea of forgiving others becomes possible.
Focusing on the breath is fine, but its almost more important to stay interested in the hindrances themselves that are showing up. Those hindrances are actually the teacher. You don't need to silence hindrances by drowning it out with a focus on breath. In fact, a really good approach is to hold both the hindrances and the breath in the same awareness and get interested in both. People who do multi-week retreats don't have perfect minds with no hindrances, but rather they create a big enough space for the hindrances so that they arise and pass in awareness, like a tiny kid on a giant stage in a huge auditorium. And they don't need to ignore the kid either, but rather put a spotlight on the kid and really appreciate the kid's performance, so to speak.
Hope this helps in some way. I struggled with this stuff for a few decades before I realizing that getting interested in how the mind gets seduced by hindrances is actually the easy and interesting and wisdom-creating and fastest path forward.
...
Self forgiveness is really the heart of this thing. Mediation get's described as some kind of "I'll get smarter and see reality" thing, but that's just the bait and hook. In fact, what meditation really becomes is "I knew I was fucking myself up, but I never understood how until I sat with myself for a while... and now I realize that I used to fuck myself up the same way that everyone else is fucking themselves up." That's where compassion really starts to become real and the idea of forgiving others becomes possible.
woger: you're right, and thanks for this, which is just the right note at the moment. Shargrol is always in good taste. His full name should be Shargrol Of Course.
love, tim
agnostic:
I just meditated my way back into equanimity for the first time in a couple of weeks. It feels extra nice, having put myself through a bunch of stress recently. I want to spend more just hanging out in equanimity and steeping myself in sukha. If I can make that more of a baseline then it should help me to avoid choosing stressful situations out of habit.
I wanted to write you a reply before Tim chimed in but I gave up as I dont love you as much as Tim does
sorry but its true.Now that Tim has opened this can of worms lemme add some more crap to this existing pile
I dont know if EQ indeed can radiate so much Sukha so to "steep myself" in it. My EQ stage experience would not align with this.Yes it felt MUCH better than being in a god aweful Re-observation but thats kind of it! Thats the aspect that I was clinging to first time I ever experienced EQ stage. This was such a bad idea which pushed me back into an even worse Re-observation (one that led to me giving up on this practice for several years.
Any way, that being the case all the rest in EQ is rather panoramic and effortless and flat in a way eventhough it can seem like an emboss painting which has 3D sense to it. You sit there with it all popping here and there and thats sit ... then all this gets boring and unsatisfactory ... and you carry on to sit with that feeling/perception as there is nothing else you can do about it ... and then ...
I dont know where you are but it could be 1st Jhana or even 3rd which can be very relaxing and very blissfull in a chilled out way, like when sitting down on the couch after a long day at work
aahhhh, niiiiiiice Check that breathing of yours and see if the inbreath is short and outbreath is very nice and long and relaxing like, just like when you stop running and then you exhale to relax If yes then 3rd Jhana/Dissolution is your source of Sukha. EQ stage cares not if there is Sukha or Shit storm in your head
its all just a big vast Status Quo in there as far EQ stage is concerned. This is my interpretation of it and I so ight be wrong and in denial etc ... Im at best stupid! So do hear what others might say as their EQ experience might align with your EQ experience which indeed might be seeping in Sukha. If you want to feel better in everyday life maybe try some other practices like Yoga, Qigong, Jogging, Gym (at home), or like me try some breathing technique. I started Ki breathing as thought by an Aikido master Koichi Tohei as this method really helped me back in 2009 with stress and paranoia and I felt really good. It even led me up to the 5th samatha jhana which for some reason didnt result in awakening
Feel good practices for feeling good and Insight practices for Awakening. No reason to mix them up as we dont really mix up all our daily stuff into awakening or? I mean, Im not mindfull all day long. Thats ok as we need certain parts to lose ourselves into for that Awakening click to happen anyway. Why? "I" cant be there when it happens. And who is meditating and trying to be mindful all the time?
I'm sure Tim would disagree and tell me I'm just being a self-absorbed wanker.
this would be to my shame, if i did. I'm truly sorry to have made you feel this way, when imagining a response from me.
love, tim
p.s. what siavash said. +1
No problem Tim, you weren't to know that I was fighting a chronic fatigue relapse. I didn't realize myself until the crash came afterwards. Plus I was feeling a bit sorry for myself, as you so eloquently pointed out
Thanks for the sympathy Siavash. I'm sorry to hear you had the same thing. I don't want to create too much of a being sick identity, but when I feel too fatigued to do normal stuff it does help to have that that identity to "justify myself".
Thanks for the sympathy Siavash. I'm sorry to hear you had the same thing. I don't want to create too much of a being sick identity, but when I feel too fatigued to do normal stuff it does help to have that that identity to "justify myself".
agnostic:
No problem Tim, you weren't to know that I was fighting a chronic fatigue relapse. I didn't realize myself until the crash came afterwards. Plus I was feeling a bit sorry for myself, as you so eloquently pointed out
Thanks for the sympathy Siavash. I don't want to create too much of a being sick identity, but when I feel too fatigued to do normal stuff it does help to have that that identity to "justify myself".
Thanks for the sympathy Siavash. I don't want to create too much of a being sick identity, but when I feel too fatigued to do normal stuff it does help to have that that identity to "justify myself".
Thanks, Woger. I love you,
It was cooking for while! There was the last few weeks of wallowing in self-pity. Before that there was the whole nondualism escapist phase (The Truth). But it seems there's only so long I can spend running away from myself
I learned the value of acceptance last year when meditation cured my depression, but somehow I forgot or circumstances changed or it's on a different level. The key now seems to be accepting energetic pain as a bare physical fact of trapped emotional pain and dropping the well-worn narratives of who or what is to blame. I can feel the pain slowly starting to melt.
I must have (partly) read 300 spiritual works in the last year, looking for answers, and eventually it all comes back to basic facts of day to day experience. There is literally no escaping the present moment, whatever you imagine it to be. I guess there's only so many times you can read that in different ways before you actually accept it!
I learned the value of acceptance last year when meditation cured my depression, but somehow I forgot or circumstances changed or it's on a different level. The key now seems to be accepting energetic pain as a bare physical fact of trapped emotional pain and dropping the well-worn narratives of who or what is to blame. I can feel the pain slowly starting to melt.
I must have (partly) read 300 spiritual works in the last year, looking for answers, and eventually it all comes back to basic facts of day to day experience. There is literally no escaping the present moment, whatever you imagine it to be. I guess there's only so many times you can read that in different ways before you actually accept it!
Chris Marti:
That's quite a shift, and in less than an hour! 
Chris, you know as well as i do that when Woger moves, he moves fast, lol.
Just don't get between him and wherever the fuck he thinks he's going, lol.
Agnostic, this is gorgeous. My heart is singing.
love, tim
agnostic:
I'm not going anywhere, I'm done going places
fine with me, lol. i'm burned out on all that running around shit myself, lol. we can get a pair of rockers and a porch and do old man shit.
except for those fucking kids of yours, lol. but i love kids. you sit on the rocker, i'll do the rug rat shit with them. Him? Only one?
love, tim
Tim Farrington:
agnostic:
I'm not going anywhere, I'm done going places
fine with me, lol. i'm burned out on all that running around shit myself, lol. we can get a pair of rockers and a porch and do old man shit.
except for those fucking kids of yours, lol. but i love kids. you sit on the rocker, i'll do the rug rat shit with them. Him? Only one?
love, tim
hey, Roger, did you start a new practice log I missed? Howzit going?
love, tim
Tim Farrington:
Tim Farrington:
agnostic:
I'm not going anywhere, I'm done going places
fine with me, lol. i'm burned out on all that running around shit myself, lol. we can get a pair of rockers and a porch and do old man shit.
except for those fucking kids of yours, lol. but i love kids. you sit on the rocker, i'll do the rug rat shit with them. Him? Only one?
love, tim
hey, Roger, did you start a new practice log I missed? Howzit going?
love, tim
Me too.
Just worried.
Thank you Tim, I was forgeting to do this.
agnostic:
There seems to be a channel of light and energy opening up between the head and the heart. The heart feels like a much more stable and pleasant place to be hanging out than the head. There's still some critical thinking going on in the background ("this is not me, I don't deserve this, it's not real") but the physical and emotional reality is undeniable.
This is right on, the heart area just seems to "know" things in some direct intuitive way that the head can't. Like you say, the quality of energy in the heart area is different and more satisfying then whatever is going on up top. I find that when awareness sinks down into the heart, decision-making and relational issues become much easier, almost automatic. Unfortunately many of us (especially those of us more inclined towards narcissism
) realize after some practice just how disconnected we've been from this area for most of our lives. Sounds like good stuff is going on.
Zachary:
This is right on, the heart area just seems to "know" things in some direct intuitive way that the head can't. Like you say, the quality of energy in the heart area is different and more satisfying then whatever is going on up top. I find that when awareness sinks down into the heart, decision-making and relational issues become much easier, almost automatic. Unfortunately many of us (especially those of us more inclined towards narcissism ) realize after some practice just how disconnected we've been from this area for most of our lives.
Sounds like good stuff is going on.
) realize after some practice just how disconnected we've been from this area for most of our lives. Sounds like good stuff is going on.
Hi Zachary, good to see you.
Yeah I see now why they say the seat of the mind is in the heart. Like you say, if you've been disconnected from the heart for a long time, it's a strange feeling that the heart just "knows". I used to think it was a pre-scientific figure of speach, but I guess one could hazard an explanation involving the precedence of the emotional system over the cognitive system. Practically speaking, when I find myself thinking and worrying about stuff, I do that kind of downshift and let the awareness sink into the heart area, where there are no problems per se and everything is all right. Hopefully life will flow more smoothly this way.
It still seems kind of in line with anapanasati - first calm the body conditioner (the breath) then calm the mind conditioner (the feelings). The piti can be painful (and also exhilarating) if you have blockages, but once the edge comes off that you are left with a warm loving awareness feeling in the heart (sukha). I wondered why anapanasati doesn't mention the third sankhara - thinking (the speech conditioner) - but it seems like thinking subsides naturally as sukha really flowers because you just feel how uncomfortable it is by comparison. Specifically saying "calm your thinking" puts you in an antagonistic relationship with your thoughts.
You are totally right about narcissism. It's a solution to a problem which over time becomes a hundred times worse than the original problem. I got hurt and put up a wall around my heart to protect myself ... and ended up hurting myself far more than the original hurt because I could no longer feel what I was doing to myself.
agnostic
I take Tim's point that some of this stress may be self-created in the present, but the general feeling is of uncovering deeepr layers.
I take Tim's point that some of this stress may be self-created in the present, but the general feeling is of uncovering deeepr layers.
woger, i think you might be misreading me in a couple of ways. I have been trying to say that even as no-self, you are part of a system of suffering that is the world, not a closed system where self-created stress or suffering is the bottom line. Defintely a message there to lighten up on your "self," but also the good news: the well of suffering never goes dry!
The cycles also seem to be speeding up, so maybe I'm getting better at recognizing and integrating them.
that's practice: your suffering, the world's, it doesn't matter. you see it come and go, and don't offer it a place to stay and breed.
Hopefully in the future I will spend less time in the moaning and whining phase, which I know can be annoying for others to watch!
fuck you, man, don't project "annoyance" on your fans! I personally am delighted watching you be miserable with such deep articulateness and self-awareness. keep up the good work!
love, tim
Smiling Stone
(I recently listened to a podcast with James Nestor (a journalist who went into free diving to get in contact with whales and from there, got fascinated with the breath and wrote a book about it) where he describes the phenomenon without naming the technique. He does stuff like taping his mouth at night and advocates nose breathing (which always made sense to me)... Just to say it's getting trendy. If anyone clicks on the link, there is a good ten minutes of hum... ads in the beginning of the podcast and it has a hu... different vibe from the usual deconstructing yourself... you're warned)
(I recently listened to a podcast with James Nestor (a journalist who went into free diving to get in contact with whales and from there, got fascinated with the breath and wrote a book about it) where he describes the phenomenon without naming the technique. He does stuff like taping his mouth at night and advocates nose breathing (which always made sense to me)... Just to say it's getting trendy. If anyone clicks on the link, there is a good ten minutes of hum... ads in the beginning of the podcast and it has a hu... different vibe from the usual deconstructing yourself... you're warned)
I got fascinated with freediving too, as something supremely contemplative in its way: it all comes down to one breath, and seeing how far that breath takes, and not losing consciousness---quite literally, it becomes life and death. It ups the stakes for breath awareness, lol, to say it lightly. These deep divers go well beyond rational function and can only hold one thought at a time, if that, at the extremes. There are tragedies in the activity, among the pro and the daredevils. But it is addictive to these people, and many of them are meditators as well, and very thughtful, philosophical sorts. A great Ted talk by a master of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MZetpFw7qY
Nestor is the state of the art in writing on it from this point of view, the contemplative breath aspect, and the science of it, with all the love of the sheer ocean immersion experience kept whole. He has a new book out, and one from a few years back more freely available used and in paperback.
love, tim
agnostic
I had an EEG yesterday and the technician saw nothing, although the neurologist still needs to look. So in the last year that's two MRIs, one EEG and two neurologists, although the post-viral fatigue provided new impetus. Having ruled out the alternatives, it seems likely that my facial pain is just a strong tension headache. I feel a bit stupid wasting resources when the answer was probably obvious all along, but I had a great-aunt who died young of a brain tumor and besides I've paid my fair share of insurance premiums so I shouldn't feel too guilty. I'm also just one of those people who needs to rule out all the far-fetched alternatives before accepting the obvious thing right in front of my face!
I had an EEG yesterday and the technician saw nothing, although the neurologist still needs to look. So in the last year that's two MRIs, one EEG and two neurologists, although the post-viral fatigue provided new impetus. Having ruled out the alternatives, it seems likely that my facial pain is just a strong tension headache. I feel a bit stupid wasting resources when the answer was probably obvious all along, but I had a great-aunt who died young of a brain tumor and besides I've paid my fair share of insurance premiums so I shouldn't feel too guilty. I'm also just one of those people who needs to rule out all the far-fetched alternatives before accepting the obvious thing right in front of my face!
That said, the old adage "Pray to God, but row away from the rocks" still applies here. You have duly done the rowing, and will, as conditions suggest and even sometimes demand. Now pray. And still pray. And always pray. Which you are doing, beautifully it seems.
love, tim
love, tim
hey woger,
I was thinking this morning about the literal physical pain/tension thing, which it seems like you're really working with well to me. In hatha yoga terms, thinking of any meditation position in a straighforward simple way, whatever technique you're using, as an asana being held, with tension/pain revealing itself: if you are finding the tension, and even discomfort physically, you can generally work with the attention to the in-breath, with curiousity and a sense of exploration, feeling your way along the tension. If the tension is painful, too intense, the gentler way is to work with the weight of attention on the out-breath, just surrendering to the complexity of the posture being too much to explore by mind and letting the out-breath ease the tension naturally (and, almost necessarily, mysteriously, letting the body's wisdom work without our expert theories and opinions on what the fuck to do, lol). This doesn't need to be systematic or consistent, even, because, as you note, the pain/tension sensation can be very fluid and changeable.
love, tim