4 - Discussion
"I'm not trying to convince anyone that I've had those experiences. I flatly reject them at this point."
Seems to me that you have come to the place of being fed up and dissilusioned with all this attaining stuff!
which , according to Kenneth Folk is the best place to be. I agree.
Just right now, ... right now, ... am I mindful? I dunno. Let me see ... itching, unpleasant, pain in the ars, unpleasant, warmth, pleasant ...
Seems to me that you have come to the place of being fed up and dissilusioned with all this attaining stuff!
which , according to Kenneth Folk is the best place to be. I agree. Just right now, ... right now, ... am I mindful? I dunno. Let me see ... itching, unpleasant, pain in the ars, unpleasant, warmth, pleasant ...
By the way your recent updates are acting as inspiration for me. I can feel that sweet disillusioned juice that keeps one concerned Only with Just Now Thank you.
Thank you.
Papa Che Dusko:
"I'm not trying to convince anyone that I've had those experiences. I flatly reject them at this point."
Seems to me that you have come to the place of being fed up and dissilusioned with all this attaining stuff! which , according to Kenneth Folk is the best place to be. I agree.
Just right now, ... right now, ... am I mindful? I dunno. Let me see ... itching, unpleasant, pain in the ars, unpleasant, warmth, pleasant ...
Seems to me that you have come to the place of being fed up and dissilusioned with all this attaining stuff!
which , according to Kenneth Folk is the best place to be. I agree. Just right now, ... right now, ... am I mindful? I dunno. Let me see ... itching, unpleasant, pain in the ars, unpleasant, warmth, pleasant ...
just now, right now, thereis a blazing comet, there is outbreath, there is PIA, mellow at this early hour, there is a flash brighter than a billion stars, there is seeing, a glimpse of past life as dinosaur. there is hearing, very clearly, the Voice of God: "You're fucked, Tim." There is gratitude.
Brandon, did i ever tell you that stream entry is again my religion?
If the secret sauce doesn't make things, or us, our minds, our lives better, then what is the point?
There's no secret sauce! There's working on ourselves, and there's time.
Chris Marti:
There's no secret sauce! There's working on ourselves, and there's time.
Mr. Ping: The secret ingredient of my Secret Ingredient Soup. Come here. The secret ingredient is... ...nothing. You heard me. Nothing! There is no secret ingredient!
Po: Wait, wait. It's just plain old noodle soup? You don't add some kind of special sauce or something?
Mr. Ping: Don't have to. To make something special, you just believe it's special. There is no secret ingredient.
...
Tai Lung: Finally! Oh, yes. The power of the Dragon Scroll is mine! .... It's nothing!
Po: It's OK. I didn't get it the first time, either. There is no secret ingredient. It's just you.
IMHO, what you need to do is focus on the "bad" stuff. That's so you can find out once and for all what it truly is. I practiced for more than ten years before "getting" anywhere. You're not different, so please stop feeling sorry for yourself and just do this.
Tell your teacher I said that
Tell your teacher I said that
Yeah, watch out for dry meditation burn out. There is no point to this without love. Sorry for going against the grain here, but seriously, again, how long can one keep up an activity which one doesn't like ? What are you curious about understanding ? How could you cultivate genuine curiosity ? Meditation is just observation, observing comes naturally when there is curiosity. It becomes hard to maintain when will-power is the main drive. "Just do it" sounds dangerously like a Nike add. Meditation is a form of culture (bhavana, means cultivation). There is no real culture which is not the natural flowering/response to a need, although perseverence is certainly necessary in any endeavor. Why do you need to meditate ? Nobody has to meditate. You're also totally free to give up for now and enjoy your existence. That could be a smart move, I'm in no position to say for you, but I know that when I insisted on doing a practice which didn't make sense for me and made me feel miserable, the wisest thing I could have done would be to stop and question my motivations and the assumptions in this method.
Sometimes listening to an Ajahn Brahm podcast where one learns ways to emotionally put things down and just relax into the present moment (the actual phenomenologists would call this : épochè !) while arousing a sense of meaning in one's practice, might make one progress more than 100h of dry vipassana. That kind of stuff sure brought about much progress for me. The hardcore "phenomenological" reporting of sensations is nice if it is the product of genuine engagement ; if it just comes as a proof of gung-ho-ness based on assumptions about there being some "objective reality" made up of only sensations (hey, empiricism ! wrong !) and a correct way of practicing, which states one should toughen up and learn to observe without emotions and subjective bias (that is, btw, the definition of the scientific method, right ?), particularly when shit is hard, I question that attitude. You could also shoot yourself in the ass and take that pain as your way to awakening, why not, after all ?
There is skill in observational finesse ; there is skill in working with one's interest and emotions. What about those spiritual faculties : Faith, Energy, Perseverance, Mindfulness, Concentration ? One can't get far without conviction. It is a fine skill to be able to nurture those things, to generate them. It's a meta-skill. Why not take more time to cultivate that ? We need much more froo froo shit in our lives, please. I'm not one who believes at all in the intelligence of applying one ill-fitting technique repeatedly and just silence the resistence that one's being screams out. There is more agility in learning the tricks which will get one's faculties well aligned. This is what lead me to stream entry, not heroic consistency and slogging through shit holding on for dear life (although that did play some role)
Just some thoughts...
Sometimes listening to an Ajahn Brahm podcast where one learns ways to emotionally put things down and just relax into the present moment (the actual phenomenologists would call this : épochè !) while arousing a sense of meaning in one's practice, might make one progress more than 100h of dry vipassana. That kind of stuff sure brought about much progress for me. The hardcore "phenomenological" reporting of sensations is nice if it is the product of genuine engagement ; if it just comes as a proof of gung-ho-ness based on assumptions about there being some "objective reality" made up of only sensations (hey, empiricism ! wrong !) and a correct way of practicing, which states one should toughen up and learn to observe without emotions and subjective bias (that is, btw, the definition of the scientific method, right ?), particularly when shit is hard, I question that attitude. You could also shoot yourself in the ass and take that pain as your way to awakening, why not, after all ?
There is skill in observational finesse ; there is skill in working with one's interest and emotions. What about those spiritual faculties : Faith, Energy, Perseverance, Mindfulness, Concentration ? One can't get far without conviction. It is a fine skill to be able to nurture those things, to generate them. It's a meta-skill. Why not take more time to cultivate that ? We need much more froo froo shit in our lives, please. I'm not one who believes at all in the intelligence of applying one ill-fitting technique repeatedly and just silence the resistence that one's being screams out. There is more agility in learning the tricks which will get one's faculties well aligned. This is what lead me to stream entry, not heroic consistency and slogging through shit holding on for dear life (although that did play some role)
Just some thoughts...
Olivier it sounds to me as you are one of those fortunate ones not been hammered badly by the Re-observation good for you man!
For those of us that got hammered by THE Mama-of-ars-kicking-dark-night there is no other thing to do but to master strengths of effort and acceptance and Just Do It, 1-10 sensations per second. AND even then, once you plow through the DN, Do Not Cling to the EQ once it arises! Find an engaging and interesting hobby instead like cleaning the house or mowing the lawn Let EQ just be EQ.
it sounds to me as you are one of those fortunate ones not been hammered badly by the Re-observation good for you man! For those of us that got hammered by THE Mama-of-ars-kicking-dark-night there is no other thing to do but to master strengths of effort and acceptance and Just Do It, 1-10 sensations per second. AND even then, once you plow through the DN, Do Not Cling to the EQ once it arises! Find an engaging and interesting hobby instead like cleaning the house or mowing the lawn
Let EQ just be EQ.
Papa Che Dusko:
Olivier it sounds to me as you are one of those fortunate ones not been hammered badly by the Re-observation good for you man!
For those of us that got hammered by THE Mama-of-ars-kicking-dark-night there is no other thing to do but to master strengths of effort and acceptance and Just Do It, 1-10 sensations per second. AND even then, once you plow through the DN, Do Not Cling to the EQ once it arises! Find an engaging and interesting hobby instead like cleaning the house or mowing the lawn Let EQ just be EQ.
it sounds to me as you are one of those fortunate ones not been hammered badly by the Re-observation good for you man! For those of us that got hammered by THE Mama-of-ars-kicking-dark-night there is no other thing to do but to master strengths of effort and acceptance and Just Do It, 1-10 sensations per second. AND even then, once you plow through the DN, Do Not Cling to the EQ once it arises! Find an engaging and interesting hobby instead like cleaning the house or mowing the lawn
Let EQ just be EQ. what is this thing, "EQ"? I hear so much about it. Hibiscus, do you know?
Damn it HK I wrote a HUGE, way too long reply and this system swolliwed it 
Probably for the better as all our suggestions will just add more to your current confusion. I think you should try and sit on one chair only as sitting on two chairs can be risky if someone pulls one away
I did suggest you another approach that includes both concentration and Vipassana at the same time but that will go against your teachers recomandations.
Why not place more faith into her teaching and stick with it for several months. See how it develops. Give it chance to ripen. You can always come back to DhO and ask our sorry ars for views
Anyway if you are still interested in trying something else tell me and I will write that missing reply of mine again.
I wrote a HUGE, way too long reply and this system swolliwed it Probably for the better as all our suggestions will just add more to your current confusion. I think you should try and sit on one chair only as sitting on two chairs can be risky if someone pulls one away I did suggest you another approach that includes both concentration and Vipassana at the same time but that will go against your teachers recomandations.
Why not place more faith into her teaching and stick with it for several months. See how it develops. Give it chance to ripen. You can always come back to DhO and ask our sorry ars for views
Anyway if you are still interested in trying something else tell me and I will write that missing reply of mine again.
Spot on mate! We see exactly what's in us and stuff can bleed out. But we also see that these stages indeed are impermanent as they do vanish to give another stage space.
I think it's great you feel like separating the off cushion lifeing and on cushion. Off cushion live life as you know it. On cushion ... well you know what your practice is I'm sure
Ingram does keep harping through the book "separate morality and practice" and "don't get lost in the contents of sensations/stages/states"
I keep music going just to have some space to get into, that's a bit away from Dharma related stuff. Depending what stage I might be in, playing might feel all from "meh, this is pointless" to "soooo calming and into it". I play daily regardless of the state or stage.
What I'm saying is, yes, have your passion/hobby going even if it's not shiny every time you pick it up. Friends, party etc ... keep being young and all that interesting stuff.
Meditation takes 45-60 minutes from your day (once or twice) and rest is life. Live a GOOD ONE
Sending you wishing well!
I think it's great you feel like separating the off cushion lifeing and on cushion. Off cushion live life as you know it. On cushion ...
well you know what your practice is I'm sure Ingram does keep harping through the book "separate morality and practice" and "don't get lost in the contents of sensations/stages/states"
I keep music going just to have some space to get into, that's a bit away from Dharma related stuff. Depending what stage I might be in, playing might feel all from "meh, this is pointless" to "soooo calming and into it". I play daily regardless of the state or stage.
What I'm saying is, yes, have your passion/hobby going even if it's not shiny every time you pick it up. Friends, party etc ... keep being young and all that interesting stuff.
Meditation takes 45-60 minutes from your day (once or twice) and rest is life. Live a GOOD ONE
Sending you wishing well!