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Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas

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Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/8/20 9:10 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Ben V. 5/8/20 11:36 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/9/20 4:03 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Olivier 5/9/20 7:06 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/9/20 12:41 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/9/20 12:45 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Olivier 5/9/20 2:05 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Smiling Stone 5/9/20 4:04 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/10/20 10:19 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Smiling Stone 5/10/20 5:51 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/11/20 3:25 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Smiling Stone 5/11/20 4:28 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/17/20 12:31 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Ben V. 5/9/20 5:05 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/10/20 9:06 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Ben V. 5/9/20 8:33 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/9/20 12:32 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/9/20 12:41 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Mike Smirnoff 5/11/20 7:30 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Smiling Stone 5/17/20 12:43 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Ben V. 5/17/20 1:05 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Brandon Dayton 5/8/20 1:27 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Sam Gentile 5/8/20 3:10 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Siavash 5/8/20 8:15 PM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Brandon Dayton 5/9/20 10:53 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Brandon Dayton 5/9/20 11:31 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Mike Smirnoff 5/11/20 7:33 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/17/20 2:44 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/17/20 11:03 AM
RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas Bill T 5/17/20 12:32 PM
Hi all! I recently started a podcast called Awake In with my pal Jasmine Che. We had Steve James (Guru Viking) on for our first episode, and Daniel was kind enough to join us for our latest!

You can find it here:
https://awake-in.com/2020/05/01/episode-3-daniel-ingram-interview/

We're new to this, so we'd love to hear your feedback on the format. Suggestions for future guests also welcome!

---------------------------------------

Show notes:

An amazing interview with Daniel – really enjoyed this one! We were particularly blown away by his insights into the Goenka vipassana tradition, and why they don’t use the meditation maps. Goenka retreats were pivotal for both me and Jasmine, so it’s amazing to hear stories about his initial training, and why the retreats downplay or ignore ‘dark night’ or ‘dhukka nana’ phenomena (difficulties that can emerge from meditation).

  • 3:24 – Practice and framing. How one begins on the adventure of meditation. Starting a practice during COVID-19 lockdown?
  • 6:00 – Daniel Ingram’s practice day to day. Morality, concentration, wisdom
  • 10:50 – Fire Kasina technique & history
  • 13:30 – Meditation and scary events. Demons!
  • 19:00 – Magical practices, grimoires, entities in the practice and traditions
  • 20:15 – Loving kindness meditation (metta) origins
  • 22:00 Loving kindness towards entities
  • 23:00 Fire kasina & necessity for theory and roadmap
  • 24:00 Bill’s memories – encountering an entity in teenage years
  • 27:15 Bill reflecting on how this impacted practice
  • 29:50 Is any dose of meditation safe? Considering the Therevadan maps. Chapter 30 MCTB.
  • 38:00 Use of maps and how they’ve helped Ingram, benefits
  • 41:00 Daniel challenges others to bring forward insight on maps
  • 41:48 Why Therevadan maps are so useful. Possible drawbacks and why some people don’t like the insight maps
  • 44:42 Benefits of maps for meditation.
  • 46:00 Why does the Goenka meditation tradition not use the maps technology that is available? Why do they keep their students in the dark about it? #dhamma #vipassana
  • 48:00 Maps and how they script meditation experiences and paths
  • 52:50 Sayadaw ‘Noting’ practice
  • 54:47 Inside story on Goenka’s training and practice with Sayagyi U Ba Khin – along with fellow students Ruth Dennison, and Robert Harry Hoover. All were taught from the Visuddhimagga
    in very individualised ways. Goenka went on to teach the version he
    learnt, without the differentiation he’d received. The Visuddhimagga has
    many techniques for different types of people. When the students went
    on to try and teach together, they rapidly clashed as they realised they
    were all teaching different things!
  • 56:48 Goenka did not have
    ‘dark night’ problems (dhukka nanas) – so never included warnings about
    them or help to navigate them in his teaching! With him around – and his
    warm, encouraging presence, his students didn’t run into so many
    problems.
  • 59:00 This difficulty of making any changes to the Goenka institution
  • 1:00:02 – The Fire Kasina – why did it get lost and why is it not more popular?
  • 1:10:10 Fire Kasina for beginners, and on retreat
  • 1:14:00 Bill & Jasmine’s ambitions for the podcast & current practice
  • 1:24:00 Scripting and the Jhanas
  • 1:29:50 Daniel’s thoughts on having a meditation teacher and how to find the right one.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/8/20 11:36 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Very interesting interview! 

The format was great. I like the three person format as it adds more angles and questions in exploring the themes. And you guys allowed lots of space for Daniel to explain his stuff.

Concerning what was said of the Goenka tradition:

It brought back memories about my time in Goenka's tradition (long time ago). Although the maps are not as emphasized as in the Mahasi tradition, I do remember allusions were made to the map or at least aspects of it. Bhanga nana (5th nana, dissolution) is often mentioned by Goenkaji if I remember well. Also, I remember the term "vipassana storm" being used to refer to what in retrospect (now knowing about the map) really seemed like it was the dukkha nanas being talked about.

Goenkaji also did talk about how in certain stages of the practice we would experience very pleasant vibrations, later to be replaced by a return of unpleasant sensations, and the importance of keeping equanimity through it all to move forward. I think it's safe to say that the insight map is "in-between the lines" in their tradition. 

About the notion of keeping the technique pure exactly as it is, I think the critique is called for. I remember in my first Goenka retreat, as I was scanning the body, in one sitting when I arrived at the heart region in my scan, I visualized some image in my heart I had learned in Tibetan Buddhism, and for some reason visualized it rotating. Right after this a huge explosion of vibrations happened in my heart center, which was somewhat stunning. Given it happened in a context of changing the technique, I never reported this at the retreat and basically cast it aside, feeling it didn't count because I didn't follow the pure technique. If this was pragmatic dharma, I assume this would have been explored (and perhaps informed that this is an A&P experience) regardless of technique used.  So I think it's right that more flexibility would help this tradition help their students more.

Anyways, good job for the interview! I enjoyed it.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/8/20 1:27 PM as a reply to Bill T.
Always excited to learn about a new mediation podcast! I'll check it out.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/8/20 3:10 PM as a reply to Bill T.
I listened to it and thought it was great. Since I'm new, are there any similar podcasts with daniel interviews or real in the trenches meditators (unlike the big name podcasts)?

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/8/20 8:15 PM as a reply to Sam Gentile.
Sam Gentile:
I listened to it and thought it was great. Since I'm new, are there any similar podcasts with daniel interviews or real in the trenches meditators (unlike the big name podcasts)?


You can find the rest of them here (A few of the interveiws are not listed there, for updates check Daniel's Twitter):


https://www.integrateddaniel.info/podcasts-and-videos/

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 4:03 AM as a reply to Ben V..
thanks all, great to hear!

Ben - really interesting to hear your thoughts on the Goenka tradition. Yes, I'd agree - there are all kinds of hints at the maps, but without explicit framing I always found it really hard to make any sense of what was going on. I mean, I know the maps ain't the territory, but even rough sketches like Folk's hilarious 'Idiots Guide to Dharma Diagnosis' can be really useful!

I've had similar discussions with course veterans on A&P-type experiences they had during courses. So little support or framing for these kind of events - not to mention the really difficult stuff that can come up. I've also had really full on sexual energy / kundalini things during courses (and heard reports of similar from friends) - and these seem so off-limits and out of bounds in the religious atmosphere that they weren't even mentioned to the assistant teachers.

This is not to be down on the Goenka institution - I owe them almost everything in my practice! But I think some reflection and critical thinking is relevant at this point in history. It really does seem to me to be deeply negligent of the trouble people can get into with meditation.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 7:06 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Nice work, guys, I like the format !

I have never gone to a Goenka retreat (thankfully, I almost want to say), but I recently met someone who started meditating seriously through Goenka, had a crazy A&P experience which lasted for a couple of months, followed by a DN which lasted for 20 years... where he seemingly received little good guidance from the Goenka people - he was really critical, although also thankful for some things.

Let me share something, to add another testimony to the greatness of knowing about the DN.

My brother went on a 10-day course and hit bhanga there, and has been fucked up for two years, basically. I believe (and other adults too) needing psychological help but not wanting it. It's been quite worrying, and still is. Lucky for us, I've learned a lot about the POI, and have been able to rationalize for myself, him and our mother, managed to convince him to keep meditating when he was in the midst of a hardcore, out of control first pass into the DN, which thankfully led to a first breakthrough to equanimity about 6-7 months after the retreat.  

I honestly wonder what would have happened if I hadn't read MCTB and been able to convince him to keep meditating while meditation seemed like hell to him. Possibly, he would have been much more messed up for much longer, with no clue about what was going on...

It served as a real confirmation of the whole POI thing for me, seeing him go through that. It was also a great mirror, for me, because it made me realize that I went through that spontaneously, during my teenage years. I'm also realizing, that our mother has gone through this in her twenties... All this helps rationalize some things.........

Anyways. I'll finish with the brother story. One day, all of a sudden, I got a hunch from one of his messages that something had completely changed in his energy, and the next day got a call from our mother saying "You know, I don't know what happened, but he has transformed completely overnight"... It was the famous, much awaited breakthrough to EQ.

But, even though I've been getting a sense that he's since then been getting more established in EQ, there are also some areas, I believe psychological/emotional/identification stuff, in which he is completely stuck, and he has become extremely rigid around certain things, around certain views, stories and identification which are obviously keeping him in this reactive and dark place, which is very sad.

So, I'm somehow optimistic and aware that his current state is linked to DN stuff. But still, I honestly sometimes doubt that he will have the ability to do this on his own, and seriously doubt that he will ever go to a psychologist or such. There has been absolutely no follow-up after the retreat, when they knew perfectly well, because the "teacher" there told my brother that what he described was bhanga ñana, that he was probably gonna run into trouble. There was also no cautionary word beforehand, not enough anyway, not enough individualized screening. They present it as some kind of "art de vivre". Is that responsible ? I don't think he should have gone on that retreat, honestly. How many people does this happen to ?

So, of course all this is linked with personal stuff, character, conditioning, etc. But honestly, I'm pretty pissed at them. As they say, "Hell is paved with good intentions...", isn't it... 

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 8:33 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Totally agree with you Bill,

I remember on the 7th day day of my first Goenka retreat I also had the sexual/energetic intensity, but never reported it. On a second retreat I went to hell, and left on the 6th day with a lot of guilt tripping from the center. My body was shaking for a few days. The whole episode is what prompted my career to become a psychotherapist. It took a while for me to overcome the anxiety and the associated guilt of not being able to push through a retreat. In one of my first Mahasi retreat, I was hitting the same hell, and the monk interviewing me gave me a long talk on the dukkha nana and told me equanimity was next. The Mahasi learning and training, and the the Pragmatic Dharma community, gave me lots of strength in my practice.

There are too many people leaving Goenka retreats in a mess, and staying in a mess for too long. Attention needs to be given to that.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 10:53 AM as a reply to Bill T.
I'm very interested in the history bit (54:47). I Have read a little bit of the history of Goenka via Braun's Birth of Insight but I'm curious about what other resources Daniel might have been drawing from to get that info.



RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 11:31 AM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
NM. Sounds like it was first-hand source through Daniel.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 12:32 PM as a reply to Ben V..
Ben V.:
Totally agree with you Bill,

I remember on the 7th day day of my first Goenka retreat I also had the sexual/energetic intensity, but never reported it. On a second retreat I went to hell, and left on the 6th day with a lot of guilt tripping from the center. My body was shaking for a few days. The whole episode is what prompted my career to become a psychotherapist. It took a while for me to overcome the anxiety and the associated guilt of not being able to push through a retreat. In one of my first Mahasi retreat, I was hitting the same hell, and the monk interviewing me gave me a long talk on the dukkha nana and told me equanimity was next. The Mahasi learning and training, and the the Pragmatic Dharma community, gave me lots of strength in my practice.

There are too many people leaving Goenka retreats in a mess, and staying in a mess for too long. Attention needs to be given to that.

Damn! Good to hear how a bit of Mahasi pragmatism helped!

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 12:41 PM as a reply to Bill T.
... can't send as a reply to Olivier! This forum is weird...

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 12:41 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Olivier:

My brother went on a 10-day course and hit bhanga there, and has been fucked up for two years, basically. I believe (and other adults too) needing psychological help but not wanting it. It's been quite worrying, and still is. Lucky for us, I've learned a lot about the POI, and have been able to rationalize for myself, him and our mother, managed to convince him to keep meditating when he was in the midst of a hardcore, out of control first pass into the DN, which thankfully led to a first breakthrough to equanimity about 6-7 months after the retreat.  

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 12:45 PM as a reply to Bill T.
Cheers Olivier! Sorry to hear about your brother - It makes me mad how common these stories are.

I've been through my own post-retreat dramas over the years. I also have two brothers who've been through several retreats, and had all kinds of stuff come up. One of them is the guy who introduced me to Ingram and MCTB - he's doing OK right now. The other is in a very tough place, though to be fair this is probably more drug and Youtube related than anything else these days. (For reference see e.g. https://your-undivided-attention.simplecast.com/episodes/down-the-rabbit-hole-by-design  )

That said, he did have what looked like an A&P event a few years ago, followed by something of a spiritual crisis. Without the maps, WTF can you do? Even with them, this stuff can be tough!

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 2:05 PM as a reply to Bill T.
Sorry about your brothers !

Yeah man, and there's no way to know if it wouldn't have happened otherwise, and how much past actions like drug use (he did smoke a lot of pot from a young age and for quite a while), and personal proclivities play a part in the mix... So nothing can straightforwardly be blamed on anyone or anything...

But it still sucks that there isn't more responsibility being taken by organizations like Goenka Vipassana retreats. Perhaps we are the ones who should try to do something about it... what, some kind of petition ? What do you guys think ? 

edit : and thinks for the youtube thing... said brother is also getting into conspiracy shit and whatnot.... I'll check it out.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 4:04 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Hello everyone,
Thanks for all your contributions, which shed light on that dark side of the Dhamma...
Bill, I am also an "old" Goenka student (10 years for me), still going on retreats but critical about the organization for all the reasons above and more. I have been trying to make sense of my experience and share it in this thread:
Some views on the technique in the Goenka tradition

It was really a great job to have Daniel express himself about Goenka like this (I mean, going beyond the righteous anger at the fact that they don't acknowledge the insight maps after bhanga, conforming themselves with a "deep sankhara might come up to the surface"). In my log, I wrote yesterday:
Tonight, I listened to Daniel's conversation with Bill T and Jasmine Che, and it was really interesting for me to hear his informed take on Goenka, how U Ba Khin would give different instructions to each student, and that Goenkaji did not have the kind of trouble that would have needed some detailed exposition of the dukkha ñanas, so that he progressed in the path without that. Acknowledging that he was quite a special character, he infused so much faith in his disciples that it would help them go through the tough bits. But now that he is no more here for support, ATs are stuck with the promise they made to continue exactly as before...

My own experience tells me that, focusing on physical sensations after the A&P (meaning you always go back to them when you totally lose it, which happens), IN MY CASE, cut short the mental proliferation of fear etc. that is the landmark of the dark night. That's what the instructions tell you to do... But each individual will have a different intensity in the "losing it" bit (depending on the intensity of the A&P), in some cases needing more tailored instructions, or straight psychological help. The "grounding" provided by the sense of touch should give us time to develop sufficient equanimity (by a process detailed at length in the other thread) to be ready to face the dissolution of the ego. Not always the case, for sure, aha... what to do? Daniel is quite bleak regarding the possibility for the organization to recognize the existence of the "risks" of meditation... So am I, so far...

Olivier, I would like to do something as well... I've been contemplating confronting the organization but haven't found the right way to interact (and being listened to), as of yet. They tend to ignore criticism (there are a few on Youtube). My thread did not attract a lot of senior Goenka practitioners so far, which is what I would have hoped for, to have a dialogue with people still practicing after years in this tradition... I guess coming here was not the right move to be read by this crew...Maybe I should put a link on reddit or something but I am not that much into self-promotion (and well, I'm still a seeker as you well know, I don't have all the answers)...
You had hinted at your brother's story with Goenka before. I'm sorry to hear the extent of the damage and yes, it is good (excellent really) that you encountered the maps... It seems that one of the problems (among others) is that people stop practicing because they are not explained the benefits of keeping on through the difficult territory at this point (they are just told not to leave the retreat)... I had not thought of it that way, really...
Ben, I remember reading on your log a really insightful psychological analysis of Goenka and his repeating "we're not a sect" as something guilty people do (more or less, sorry for distorting...) to hide their weakness. I also find it appalling how they charge people with guilt if they need to leave the retreat (the rationale being that it is dangerous), sorry it happened to you. I do appreciate your take on practice in general.

Brandon, I have been chasing information as well. There is some stuff in my thread, but not so much. Look for anecdotes in the Sayamagi IMC, or the book by John Coleman, "the quiet mind" to have other takes on U Ba Khin way of teaching...

Well, maybe it would deserve a new thread to gather evidence (now scattered around) as a first step?
Nice podcast, by the way!
with metta
smiling stone

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/9/20 5:05 PM as a reply to Bill T.
Sorry to hear about your brother. Hope he finds the right format for his well-being.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/10/20 9:06 AM as a reply to Ben V..
Ben V.:
Sorry to hear about your brother. Hope he finds the right format for his well-being.

Thanks man. I hope so too! I'm at a loss for how to help him really at this point.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/10/20 10:19 AM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
Stone - thanks for the link, I remember scanning through this 6 months ago doing searches on 'Goenka' when I first found MCTB and DhO. Just re-read, it's a good one!

I'm grateful for what I learnt from the Goenka tradition - this anapana - body-scanning stuff. Still the basis of my meditation. Getting deeper into samatha recently has been a revelation though - feel like I really missed this! It's funny, I had a similar feeling in the early 90's getting into vinyl and CD's after years of cassettes. What?! I was missing this! Kind of cheated feeling.

Thanks also for mention of the Coleman book - just bought it!

Re. the reformation of the Goenka institution! Phew - what a project. My guess is some kind of linking of the A.T.'s to talk about it might be more productive than the petition / bad press angle. But hey, what do I know?! It's certainly a very worthwhile endeavour!

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/10/20 5:51 PM as a reply to Bill T.
Bill:
Re. the reformation of the Goenka institution! Phew - what a project. My guess is some kind of linking of the A.T.'s to talk about it might be more productive than the petition / bad press angle. But hey, what do I know?! It's certainly a very worthwhile endeavour!

I agree with you! the plan would be to go and talk to the ATs, write to the trust, whatever, but this needs to have it really well together before (and not be concerned about success, let the fruits ripen, as they say). From my exchanges with senior ATs, faith in Goenka is really strong and obliterate judgment... But that cannot be the case with everybody... And there are more and more younger ones, some of them seem quite far on the path. Christopher Titmuss tried a few years back, now Daniel, maybe more will voice wise critics and get heard...

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/11/20 3:25 AM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
Interesting I didn't know Titmuss had been involved in this! What did he do?

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/11/20 4:28 AM as a reply to Bill T.
https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/10-day-goenka-courses-in-vipassana-time-to-make-changes-12-firm-proposals


Comments are interesting, because quite a few senior students chimed in, and it's the only time I've seen this, surely because of Christopher Titmuss's status and aura in the meditation world. We are rookies, when it comes  to get people "who count" interested...
I do think we have an angle here, because he does not insist so much on the dukkha ñanas (if I remember well, I haven't read that for a while).

Nice to see you're interested in all these, Bill!
with metta
smiling stone

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/11/20 7:30 AM as a reply to Ben V..
I've heard from a "sort of" Goenka-tradition-insider that Goenka talked about rotating the heart chakra in the very early days (pre-video recordings of his talks).

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/11/20 7:33 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Maybe it helps to point out which Sutta's Goenka tradition takes off from.
This is my interpretation -- I think Goenka tradition essentially goes off, of the Madhupindaka sutta  from the Majjhima Nikaya which talks about how Papanca (proliferation; Sanskrit: Prapancha) starts at Vedana. 
Nanananda: Concept and Reality does a good job of elaborating on this Sutta along with discussing the Cula-Sunnata sutta where a state of mind which "sounds like" bare-awareness of phenomena and discerning through that is talked about.

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/17/20 2:44 AM as a reply to Bill T.
I'm listenining to this, one small chunk at a time, because that's all I have right now, and I think it's a great conversation. You touched on one of the things that I have been pondering lately (and maybe it will be further developed as I keep listening): Am I being terribly irresponsible if I find that I do want to live in a magickal universe? Would I be able ta handle it skillfully, or should I back out of that territorium now, just in case it would tip over into something that can't be explained away? The thing is, I have already stopped believing in a non-magickal universe, so I may already be on the road to batshit crazy. That per se doesn't scare me that much. The prospect of doing harm, on the other hand, does. 

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/17/20 11:03 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I finished listening now and got my answer right at the end, so thanks for that! I will just continue to be attuned to what is going on, because the answers are there most of the time, and that makes me feel safe. I'm trusting the process. It gives me the cues that are needed. 

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/17/20 12:31 PM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
Thanks for the link, Stone! Will check this out...

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/17/20 12:32 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Hey Linda, great to hear from you and thanks for the feedback. Great to hear it was of use! emoticon

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/17/20 12:43 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
I've heard from a "sort of" Goenka-tradition-insider that Goenka talked about rotating the heart chakra in the very early days (pre-video recordings of his talks).


Thanks for the anecdote, Mike, I had not heard that one!

RE: Interview with Daniel Ingram - Goenka, maps, and jhanas
Answer
5/17/20 1:05 PM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Wow. Now that catches my attention! I didn't know that.