Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery - Discussion
Not two, not one:
hae1en:
Not two, Not one - the hexagonal grid (honeycomb) is called Indra's net in dzogchen and there is a sequence of steps to work with it.
Interesting - all I could find from google was metaphorical references to Indra's net. Can you point me towards the specific Dzogchen resources you mentioned?
Thanks!
Malcolm
"all" you could find, those pesky metaphorical references. Tsk, tsh, Malcolm, you hard-core specific-resource lasered madman.
Here’s a specific technique for you, Not Two, Not One, from my tradition: go out in the wilderness and fast alone for forty days and forty nights (you may accept any sustenance offered by ravens and angels, use careful discernment and beware of crows and demons bearing gifts). Then wake before dawn and find a spiderweb hung with dew. Take your shoes off, for you are standing on holy ground, and sit just west of it, until the light dawns.
This technique must be performed only in the wilderness, so that no one is hurt by the shrapnel when your mind explodes.
now, Indra's net:
"Imagine a multidimensional spider's web in the early morning covered with dew drops. And every dew drop contains the reflection of all the other dew drops. And, in each reflected dew drop, the reflections of all the other dew drops in that reflection. And so ad infinitum. That is the Buddhist conception of the universe in an image." –Alan Watts
Endless action arises from the mind; from action arises the multifarious world. Having understood that the world's true nature is mind, you display bodies of your own in harmony with the world. Having realized that this world is like a dream, and that all Buddhas are like mere reflections, that all principles are like an echo, you move unimpeded in the world.
from the Avatamsaka sutra
from the Avatamsaka sutra
turning to Buddhist scriptures, at least, right?
Good Old Wikipedia, chasing down them pesky metaphors and shit:
The Avataṃsaka Sūtra (IAST, Sanskrit: आवतंसक सूत्र); or the Mahāvaipulya Buddhāvataṃsaka Sūtra (Sanskrit: महावैपुल्य बुद्धावतंसक सूत्र), is one of the most influential Mahāyāna sutras of East Asian Buddhism. The title is rendered in English as Flower Garland Sutra, Flower Adornment Sutra, or Flower Ornament Scripture. It has been called by the translator Thomas Cleary "the most grandiose, the most comprehensive, and the most beautifully arrayed of the Buddhist scriptures." . . .
The Avataṃsaka Sūtra was written in stages, beginning from at least 500 years after the death of the Buddha. One source claims that it is "a very long text composed of a number of originally independent scriptures of diverse provenance, all of which were combined, probably in Central Asia, in the late third or the fourth century CE." Japanese scholars such as Akira Hirakawa and Otake Susumu meanwhile argue that the Sanskrit original was compiled in India from sutras already in circulation which also bore the name "Buddhavatamsaka" . . .
According to Paramārtha, a 6th-century monk from Ujjain in central India, the Avataṃsaka Sūtra is also called the "Bodhisattva Piṭaka." In his translation of the Mahāyānasaṃgrahabhāṣya, there is a reference to the Bodhisattva Piṭaka, which Paramārtha notes is the same as the Avataṃsaka Sūtra in 100,000 lines. Identification of the Avataṃsaka Sūtra as a "Bodhisattva Piṭaka" was also recorded in the colophon of a Chinese manuscript at the Mogao Caves: "Explication of the Ten Stages, entitled Creator of the Wisdom of an Omniscient Being by Degrees, a chapter of the Mahāyāna sūtra Bodhisattvapiṭaka Buddhāvataṃsaka, has ended."
Likewise, in book 30:
In all atoms of all lands
Buddha enters, each and every one,
Producing miracle displays for sentient beings:
Such is the way of Vairocana....
The techniques of the Buddhas are inconceivable,
All appearing in accord with beings’ minds....
In each atom the Buddhas of all times
Appear, according to inclinations;
While their essential nature neither comes nor goes,
By their vow power they pervade the worlds.
The Avataṃsaka Sūtra (IAST, Sanskrit: आवतंसक सूत्र); or the Mahāvaipulya Buddhāvataṃsaka Sūtra (Sanskrit: महावैपुल्य बुद्धावतंसक सूत्र), is one of the most influential Mahāyāna sutras of East Asian Buddhism. The title is rendered in English as Flower Garland Sutra, Flower Adornment Sutra, or Flower Ornament Scripture. It has been called by the translator Thomas Cleary "the most grandiose, the most comprehensive, and the most beautifully arrayed of the Buddhist scriptures." . . .
The Avataṃsaka Sūtra was written in stages, beginning from at least 500 years after the death of the Buddha. One source claims that it is "a very long text composed of a number of originally independent scriptures of diverse provenance, all of which were combined, probably in Central Asia, in the late third or the fourth century CE." Japanese scholars such as Akira Hirakawa and Otake Susumu meanwhile argue that the Sanskrit original was compiled in India from sutras already in circulation which also bore the name "Buddhavatamsaka" . . .
According to Paramārtha, a 6th-century monk from Ujjain in central India, the Avataṃsaka Sūtra is also called the "Bodhisattva Piṭaka." In his translation of the Mahāyānasaṃgrahabhāṣya, there is a reference to the Bodhisattva Piṭaka, which Paramārtha notes is the same as the Avataṃsaka Sūtra in 100,000 lines. Identification of the Avataṃsaka Sūtra as a "Bodhisattva Piṭaka" was also recorded in the colophon of a Chinese manuscript at the Mogao Caves: "Explication of the Ten Stages, entitled Creator of the Wisdom of an Omniscient Being by Degrees, a chapter of the Mahāyāna sūtra Bodhisattvapiṭaka Buddhāvataṃsaka, has ended."
Likewise, in book 30:
In all atoms of all lands
Buddha enters, each and every one,
Producing miracle displays for sentient beings:
Such is the way of Vairocana....
The techniques of the Buddhas are inconceivable,
All appearing in accord with beings’ minds....
In each atom the Buddhas of all times
Appear, according to inclinations;
While their essential nature neither comes nor goes,
By their vow power they pervade the worlds.
In Gödel, Escher, Bach (1979), Douglas Hofstadter uses Indra's net as a metaphor for the complex interconnected networks formed by relationships between objects in a system—including social networks, the interactions of particles, and the "symbols" that stand for ideas in a brain or intelligent computer.
also:
In Vermeer's Hat (2007), a history book written by Timothy Brook, the author uses the metaphor:
Buddhism uses a similar image to describe the interconnectedness of all phenomena. It is called Indra's Net. When Indra fashioned the world, he made it as a web, and at every knot in the web is tied a pearl. Everything that exists, or has ever existed, every idea that can be thought about, every datum that is true—every dharma, in the language of Indian philosophy—is a pearl in Indra's net. Not only is every pearl tied to every other pearl by virtue of the web on which they hang, but on the surface of every pearl is reflected every other jewel on the net. Everything that exists in Indra's web implies all else that exists.
Buddhism uses a similar image to describe the interconnectedness of all phenomena. It is called Indra's Net. When Indra fashioned the world, he made it as a web, and at every knot in the web is tied a pearl. Everything that exists, or has ever existed, every idea that can be thought about, every datum that is true—every dharma, in the language of Indian philosophy—is a pearl in Indra's net. Not only is every pearl tied to every other pearl by virtue of the web on which they hang, but on the surface of every pearl is reflected every other jewel on the net. Everything that exists in Indra's web implies all else that exists.
and
Writing in The Spectator, Sarah Burton explains that Brook uses the metaphor, and its interconnectedness,
to help understand the multiplicity of causes and effects producing the way we are and the way we were [...] In the same way, the journeys through Brook's picture-portals intersect with each other, at the same time shedding light on each other.
to help understand the multiplicity of causes and effects producing the way we are and the way we were [...] In the same way, the journeys through Brook's picture-portals intersect with each other, at the same time shedding light on each other.
and:
In Indra's Net (2014), Rajiv Malhotra uses the image of Indra's net as a metaphor for the profound cosmology and outlook that permeates Hinduism. Indra's Net symbolizes the universe as a web of connections and interdependences [...] I seek to revive it as the foundation for Vedic cosmology and show how it went on to become the central principle of Buddhism, and from there spread into mainstream Western discourse across several disciplines.
fucking metaphors fucking up our nice neat practice, fuck this shit.
Has it really never occurred to you that every specific technique IS a metaphor? And so, every metaphor implies any number of techniques. It is the fruitful metaphor of scriptures, a fruit bursting with nothing whatsoever but metaphor seeds for each to cultivate as s/he will, that makes a tradition live. What Daniel did was going back to the sources, grow some of his own, and this home-grown stuff is strong shit. But only an idiot would despise the seed, looking for the fruit.
(edit) "Here is the parable: the sower sows the word." Yes, a parable, worse still than a metaphor ("meta-phor," from the Greek, means literally "to carry over"--- sea of samsara, anyone?). But that's scripture for you. And who's the sower? Jesus Fucking Christ, Malcolm.
hae1en:
Not two, not one:
a star field?
Picture?
Like this, but more rectangular (laterally) and not quite as desnse as this picture.
Not two, not one:
Like this, but more rectangular (laterally) and not quite as desnse as this picture.
I also see it, both in jhanas and in deep formless sleep. Sometimes in 3D. So how can they be formless if there are textures like this in their coating?
Sometimes I think it's the result of doing vipassana on formless realms. That would explain why the patters reveal themselves short of fruitions.
And sometimes the dots - white, blue or rainbow color form a tunnel.
I also see it, both in jhanas and in deep formless sleep. Sometimes in 3D. So how can they be formless if there are textures like this in their coating?
Sometimes I think it's the result of doing vipassana on formless realms. That would explain why the patters reveal themselves short of fruitions.
And sometimes the dots - white, blue or rainbow color form a tunnel.
hae1en:
Not two, not one:
Like this, but more rectangular (laterally) and not quite as desnse as this picture.
I also see it, both in jhanas and in deep formless sleep. Sometimes in 3D. So how can they be formless if there are textures like this in their coating?
Sometimes I think it's the result of doing vipassana on formless realms. That would explain why the patters reveal themselves short of fruitions.
And sometimes the dots - white, blue or rainbow color form a tunnel.
I also see it, both in jhanas and in deep formless sleep. Sometimes in 3D. So how can they be formless if there are textures like this in their coating?
Sometimes I think it's the result of doing vipassana on formless realms. That would explain why the patters reveal themselves short of fruitions.
And sometimes the dots - white, blue or rainbow color form a tunnel.
Personally, I don't count such states as formless, because that is form. When I have been in formless realms, there were no such imageries. It started out as endless bright white space, but the whiteness was the first to go. Then there were no visuals or other sensory impressions whatsoever. It was just endless awareness, then endless nothingness, then a very tangible absence even of nothingness.
Tim Farrington:
Hae1en, wow. I see that all the time. All of space was once raining similar, more scintillating stuff once, after a particularly deep and gentle massage.
Dear Tim, this is the neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex. It happens not only in epilepsy or migrains or other neurological syndromes, but in meditation as well. I'm just curious how do these visions known to neuroscience translate into nimitta - like phenomena and other "sacred geometry" imagery.
hae1en:
Tim Farrington:
Hae1en, wow. I see that all the time. All of space was once raining similar, more scintillating stuff once, after a particularly deep and gentle massage.
Dear Tim, this is the neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex. It happens not only in epilepsy or migrains or other neurological syndromes, but in meditation as well. I'm just curious how do these visions known to neuroscience translate into nimitta - like phenomena and other "sacred geometry" imagery.
In Siddha yoga, Muktananda described the long process of finding and stability and clarifying "The Blue Pearl." And, of course, down in the trenches of us, blue pearls everywhere.
hae1en:
Tim Farrington:
Hae1en, wow. I see that all the time. All of space was once raining similar, more scintillating stuff once, after a particularly deep and gentle massage.
Dear Tim, this is the neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex. It happens not only in epilepsy or migrains or other neurological syndromes, but in meditation as well. I'm just curious how do these visions known to neuroscience translate into nimitta - like phenomena and other "sacred geometry" imagery.
Neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex - yet another concept to google! I'm learning so much here.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
As for karma, I have been thinking of all these chrystallized expressions as the art of temporarily turning samsara into a diamond.
Fortunately, samsara is always already a diamond.
Then the venerable Sariputra said to the Brahma Sikhin, "As for me, O Brahma, I see this great earth, with its highs and lows, its thorns, its precipices, its peaks, and its abysses, as if it were entirely filled with ordure."
Brahma Sikhin replied, "The fact that you see such a buddha-field as this as if it were so impure, reverend Sariputra, is a sure sign that there are highs and lows in your mind and that your positive thought in regard to the buddha-gnosis is not pure either. Reverend Sariputra, those whose minds are impartial toward all living beings and whose positive thoughts toward the buddha-gnosis are pure see this buddha-field as perfectly pure."
Thereupon the Lord touched the ground of this billion-world-galactic universe with his big toe, and suddenly it was transformed into a huge mass of precious jewels, a magnificent array of many hundreds of thousands of clusters of precious gems, until it resembled the universe of the Tathagata Ratnavyuha, called Anantagunaratnavyuha. Everyone in the entire assembly was filled with wonder, each perceiving himself seated on a throne of jeweled lotuses.
Then, the Buddha said to the venerable Sariputra, "Sariputra, do you see this splendor of the virtues of the buddha-field?"
"Sariputra replied, "I see it, Lord! Here before me is a display of splendor such as I never before heard of or beheld!"
The Buddha said, "Sariputra, this buddha-field is always thus pure, but the Tathagata makes it appear to be spoiled by many faults, in order to bring about the maturity of the inferior living beings. For example, Sariputra, the gods of the Trayastrimsa heaven all take their food from a single precious vessel, yet the nectar which nourishes each one differs according to the differences of the merits each has accumulated. Just so, Sariputra, living beings born in the same buddha-field see the splendor of the virtues of the buddha-fields of the Buddhas according to their own degrees of purity."
- VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA
Brahma Sikhin replied, "The fact that you see such a buddha-field as this as if it were so impure, reverend Sariputra, is a sure sign that there are highs and lows in your mind and that your positive thought in regard to the buddha-gnosis is not pure either. Reverend Sariputra, those whose minds are impartial toward all living beings and whose positive thoughts toward the buddha-gnosis are pure see this buddha-field as perfectly pure."
Thereupon the Lord touched the ground of this billion-world-galactic universe with his big toe, and suddenly it was transformed into a huge mass of precious jewels, a magnificent array of many hundreds of thousands of clusters of precious gems, until it resembled the universe of the Tathagata Ratnavyuha, called Anantagunaratnavyuha. Everyone in the entire assembly was filled with wonder, each perceiving himself seated on a throne of jeweled lotuses.
Then, the Buddha said to the venerable Sariputra, "Sariputra, do you see this splendor of the virtues of the buddha-field?"
"Sariputra replied, "I see it, Lord! Here before me is a display of splendor such as I never before heard of or beheld!"
The Buddha said, "Sariputra, this buddha-field is always thus pure, but the Tathagata makes it appear to be spoiled by many faults, in order to bring about the maturity of the inferior living beings. For example, Sariputra, the gods of the Trayastrimsa heaven all take their food from a single precious vessel, yet the nectar which nourishes each one differs according to the differences of the merits each has accumulated. Just so, Sariputra, living beings born in the same buddha-field see the splendor of the virtues of the buddha-fields of the Buddhas according to their own degrees of purity."
- VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA
Big toe is optional.
Stirling Campbell:
Fortunately, samsara is always already a diamond.
According to the Vimilakirti sutra, sure, but I’m not so sure I’m buying it. It’s kind of hard to sell that to my friend who has basically been lying in his own shit for two years now because he can’t get the support he needs.
Big toe is optional.
?
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
According to the Vimilakirti sutra, sure, but I’m not so sure I’m buying it. It’s kind of hard to sell that to my friend who has basically been lying in his own shit for two years now because he can’t get the support he needs.
It's a view that features frequently in many traditions. Simply put, Nirvana is not something or somewhere other than right here, right now. Believing it (as you point out) won't necessarily do you any good, but even just reading it might be enough to make it suddenly obvious.
?
In the sutra it is the Buddha's big toe that touches the ground and allows Sariputra to see beyond his everyday samsaric vision. It's supposed to be funny, IMHO.
Stirling Campbell:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
According to the Vimilakirti sutra, sure, but I’m not so sure I’m buying it. It’s kind of hard to sell that to my friend who has basically been lying in his own shit for two years now because he can’t get the support he needs.
It's a view that features frequently in many traditions. Simply put, Nirvana is not something or somewhere other than right here, right now. Believing it (as you point out) won't necessarily do you any good, but even just reading it might be enough to make it suddenly obvious.
?
In the sutra it is the Buddha's big toe that touches the ground and allows Sariputra to see beyond his everyday samsaric vision. It's supposed to be funny, IMHO.
I know, but there are very different ways of framing it, resulting in very different implications, some of which can be harmful depending on the context. Sometimes it's just more appropriate to lend a hand or two than to poke with one's toe, especially if you're not really a Buddha.
hae1en:
I think I can understand your disappointment with symbolic interpretations being just a set of arbitrary axioms fitting together - I remember having this realisation in the past,
I think I can understand your disappointment with symbolic interpretations being just a set of arbitrary axioms fitting together - I remember having this realisation in the past,
Hector
I'm actually not all all disappointed with this! In fact very very very much relieved as this is my default mode for dream interview techniques I apply to myself. I just didn't realize I have to treat meditative experiences the same way and when I reached that conclusion it was a huge relief. You see I wasn't just doing fire kasina, I was also doing various maps at the same time, so like double koan at the same time, random visual and also mixture of beliefs. This actually helped me see past the weird self reinforcing beliefs the various maps had on me. The conflicting maps of my math models, Tim, Linda and you and some other podcast on tarot actually helped me realize this, back to the elephant analogy again.
I'm actually not all all disappointed with this! In fact very very very much relieved as this is my default mode for dream interview techniques I apply to myself. I just didn't realize I have to treat meditative experiences the same way and when I reached that conclusion it was a huge relief. You see I wasn't just doing fire kasina, I was also doing various maps at the same time, so like double koan at the same time, random visual and also mixture of beliefs. This actually helped me see past the weird self reinforcing beliefs the various maps had on me. The conflicting maps of my math models, Tim, Linda and you and some other podcast on tarot actually helped me realize this, back to the elephant analogy again.
The blind men and the elephant, you mean?
Kinda like this ... if there are 3 belief systems, it's surfing the chaotic edge when I ping pong between them and how it felt to be deeply in the well of a held belief
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_fractal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_fractal
Now I'm curious what happens if someone goes really really really deep in one belief if they can come back out again or if it they make a black hole and fork off into their own reality. Like the flat earthers ending on a real flat earth?
I'm not a bad subject for that question: born Roman Catholic, big time believer, heard God in the bells, not the wafer, altar boy in both Latin and English on the cusp of Vatican II, sick of that shit by 13, Buddhism at 17, 16 years of zen, kashmir shaivism, etc., the eastern loop so many of us take from our birth traditions; but looped back from matra to prayer in 1990, when i got an in-law apartment near St. Ann of the Sunset church (big ugly pink thing, with attached school, in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of SF, heard the bell for morning mass, and trotted on over there like Pavlov's dog to worship in the dark candle-lit predawn church with half a dozen olf ladies and a couple of fervent commuters in the business clothes. Did'nt take communion until i confessed for my 16 years of heathen idol worship (i actually just told him i had dovorced and broke down sobbing. The priest waited and said, basically, it vtakes two to make a divorce and gave me rgeee hail Marys, and Our Father, and a good Act of Contrition as penance. I took up something like centering prayer, but still intgratinjg my long-time breath attention with the mantra, whic was now a prayer, and no fucking difference as far as i'm concerned, though the CP have to cover their ass with the Church conservatives who suspect eastern heresy or new-agism at the drop of a wrong word. And thirty years of pretty much the same evolving prayer since then.
Also be careful, I constructed all these tools from a huge number of random things to understand myself. If you try them I am not sure what it would do, it would be like running code from an alien civilization that borrowed code from 5 others.
oh, now you tell me! GThis Andromeda yechnique has Fucked Me Up!
love, tim
Hector, i've got a longer reply in the slow works, so don't delete your fucking post, literally for God's sake.
I haven't really tried sound mantra, the only time I do that is when doing 'speaking in tongues' prayer
or with a Jew's harp.
great use of this on Johnny Cash's version of "God's Gonna Cut You Down" from that wildly creative all bets are off last phase of his great life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJlN9jdQFSc
In that form it's sort of using my emotion to convey a complex message to God with no need for conceptual thought.
love, tim
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
This is the 3D model I mentioned that I thought you could possibly be one of the few to take some interest in, although it was the product of a racing mind and probably doesn't make that much sense. Anyway, you asked in my log what I did with the fruitions (and erased your post before I had any chance to find this old thing), and this is what I did the first time around.
Only one person apart from me seemed to see any value in it, and he was psychotic at the time, so you probably shouldn't take it very seriously.
One
of the reasons that I appreciate this forum so much is that it is socially
accepted and even encouraged to be a phenomenology junky, as it turns out that
I am one. Should have seen that one coming, hehe.
of the reasons that I appreciate this forum so much is that it is socially
accepted and even encouraged to be a phenomenology junky, as it turns out that
I am one. Should have seen that one coming, hehe.
Shamatha
is just a starter drug; once you’re hooked on that, and the phenomology, they
offer you just a taste of vipassana. Seen the needle and the damage done. Nuff
said.
Anyway,
I sometimes find that language is a crude instrument for understanding complex
matters,
I sometimes find that language is a crude instrument for understanding complex
matters,
I
have no fucking idea what the fuck you fucking mean by that! Language is the fucking human
state of the art! Crude? What’s the fucking alternative? A delicate silence? A foo-foo wink? Cave art?
Well, cave art, sure.
not
least because it requires a linear presentation. I often find that I need to
think in more than one direction in order to make at least some justice to the
objects of my interest.
least because it requires a linear presentation. I often find that I need to
think in more than one direction in order to make at least some justice to the
objects of my interest.
always
ragging
on
the goddamned "linearity"
of language.
Unfortunately,
I lack both the mathematical and the technical skills to visualize how I think.
I lack both the mathematical and the technical skills to visualize how I think.
Visualization of how you think is, isuspect, what you are most interestedn in, and it seems this post constitutes your own Linda Math, you own symbolic language. But for God's sake let's stop worshipping the fucking wonks and deferring to them every time somebody says "mathematics." Without you, and Hector, and those like you, loving the exploration of of "how" itself, mathematicians would be idle doodlers, and technicians would be exposed for the manipulative control freaks so many of them actually are.
After
having gone through a few different doors to fruition I felt that I had to try
anyway, because I needed that kind of framework to integrate my experience in a
way that made sense to me. Being unable to communicate central aspects of my
experience just drives me nuts. Thus I started to put together a tentative
model of what the insights were about.
having gone through a few different doors to fruition I felt that I had to try
anyway, because I needed that kind of framework to integrate my experience in a
way that made sense to me. Being unable to communicate central aspects of my
experience just drives me nuts. Thus I started to put together a tentative
model of what the insights were about.
The
model is based on very little experiential data (7 fruitions,
I believe), so it is of course very crude, and I will probably need to change
it over time. It's not an attempt to represent any ultimate truth, just my
personal attempts at making sense of something that is of course too complex to
make sense of. Constructing the model helped me to straighten out some question
marks that I had about my journey so far. It would be interesting to get some
input from others if possible.
model is based on very little experiential data (7 fruitions,
I believe), so it is of course very crude, and I will probably need to change
it over time. It's not an attempt to represent any ultimate truth, just my
personal attempts at making sense of something that is of course too complex to
make sense of. Constructing the model helped me to straighten out some question
marks that I had about my journey so far. It would be interesting to get some
input from others if possible.
Remember that for a model to be truly "scientific," it should generate not just explanations for phenomena already experpienced, but should also be able to point toward new phenomena, as yet unexperienced and even not conceived, that are implied in the model itself. Thus black hole theory fell out of Einstein's General Relativity theory like a clown from a Rolls Royce, followed by an aardvark: didn't see THAT shit coming.
Here
goes:
Imagine a cube. It has three dimensions. The three dimensions are impermanence,
emptiness and suffering.
goes:
Imagine a cube. It has three dimensions. The three dimensions are impermanence,
emptiness and suffering.
It's like you're inside my head.
All
these dimensions are subject to tension between two extremes that only make
sence if there is a reference point of some kind and thus polarity. The tension
is a force of expansion vs contraction. The tensions of the different
dimensions are represented on the cube in such a way that one side of the cube
represents one of the extremes of that dimension and the opposite side the
other extreme. The six sides of the cube are thus representations of polarized
constructions of the three characteristics, two extremes per characteristic.
these dimensions are subject to tension between two extremes that only make
sence if there is a reference point of some kind and thus polarity. The tension
is a force of expansion vs contraction. The tensions of the different
dimensions are represented on the cube in such a way that one side of the cube
represents one of the extremes of that dimension and the opposite side the
other extreme. The six sides of the cube are thus representations of polarized
constructions of the three characteristics, two extremes per characteristic.
I find this strangely erotic.
The
impermanence polarity is between the expansive extreme of infinite flow a
shaken bottle of mineral water on the one hand and the contractive extreme of
absolute stillness (stagnation/rigidity/coagulation) on the other hand. The
balance point within polarity (which is of course a subjective construction and
dependent on scale) is a balanced flow of motion in time and space, with
periods of more stillness. Nibbana is the non-polarity option with regard to
all dimensions, and the ultimate balance point. "Ultimate" shall not
be understood in a normative way; change is the nature of life, and there's
nothing wrong with that per se. Let us represent this polarity as flow
<--> stillness, thus naming one side flow and the opposite side
stillness.
impermanence polarity is between the expansive extreme of infinite flow a
shaken bottle of mineral water on the one hand and the contractive extreme of
absolute stillness (stagnation/rigidity/coagulation) on the other hand. The
balance point within polarity (which is of course a subjective construction and
dependent on scale) is a balanced flow of motion in time and space, with
periods of more stillness. Nibbana is the non-polarity option with regard to
all dimensions, and the ultimate balance point. "Ultimate" shall not
be understood in a normative way; change is the nature of life, and there's
nothing wrong with that per se. Let us represent this polarity as flow
<--> stillness, thus naming one side flow and the opposite side
stillness.
Are you sure you should be saying this stuff in a public forum?
The
emptiness polarity is between the expansive extreme of separation (dividing,
making distinctions, analyzing into smaller and smaller parts) on the one hand,
where everything is shattered, and the contractive extreme of unity where
everything is merged on the other hand. There is an infinity paradox in both
those extremes. The separation extreme paradox is explained pretty well in
Zenon’s paradox. The unity extreme paradox is that if everything is on one
side, there is nothing on the other side, and thus there can be no sides. The
balance point is realizing that emptiness and suchness are pretty much the same
thing, only dependent on whether it is looked upon from the inside or outside,
as Culadasa puts it, which is in itself a paradox dependent on a reference
point and thus polarity. (EDIT: The two opposite sides of the cube reflecting
this polarity may be named separation and unity. Another options is ”I am
nothing” vs ”I am everything”.)
emptiness polarity is between the expansive extreme of separation (dividing,
making distinctions, analyzing into smaller and smaller parts) on the one hand,
where everything is shattered, and the contractive extreme of unity where
everything is merged on the other hand. There is an infinity paradox in both
those extremes. The separation extreme paradox is explained pretty well in
Zenon’s paradox. The unity extreme paradox is that if everything is on one
side, there is nothing on the other side, and thus there can be no sides. The
balance point is realizing that emptiness and suchness are pretty much the same
thing, only dependent on whether it is looked upon from the inside or outside,
as Culadasa puts it, which is in itself a paradox dependent on a reference
point and thus polarity. (EDIT: The two opposite sides of the cube reflecting
this polarity may be named separation and unity. Another options is ”I am
nothing” vs ”I am everything”.)
okay, then, if you can handle it, then i can
The
suffering polarity is between the expansive extreme of craving/clinging on the
one hand and the contractive extreme of having no will on the other hand, which
in polarity tends to become indifference/apathy when driven too far to that
extreme. The balance point within polarity is letting go but still caring.
Compassion if you will (and with the realization that dependent origination
means that there isn’t really a independent will because that would imply a
separate self).
suffering polarity is between the expansive extreme of craving/clinging on the
one hand and the contractive extreme of having no will on the other hand, which
in polarity tends to become indifference/apathy when driven too far to that
extreme. The balance point within polarity is letting go but still caring.
Compassion if you will (and with the realization that dependent origination
means that there isn’t really a independent will because that would imply a
separate self).
"Isobarycentre, exercice de barycentres "
CentroidProject SparkDefinition: an isobarycenter, also know as the center of gravity in Physics, is the average of equal masses placed at the point positions. The formula is to add all the points, and divide by the number of points. But fortunately, Project Spark has got a tile for that: "centroid". It needs an object set to work, so you'll have to put all your objects in an object set, or directly use each object (with the in-world picker/object variables and "plus").
By simply treating the above graph as a plane sliced out of your cube for easy represention, and reading "isobarycenter, or center of gravity for what you have in your model termed nibbana, i think you'll see that the mind contemplating this is at first scared shitless and from there proceeds fairly quickly into a condition of breakdown and chaotic disarray, and thus commences another fruitful round of the dukha nanas.
Fruitions
are sort of a discharge that gives release for the purpose of purification.
They tend to bring us closer to the center of the cube where all dimensions are
balanced. In the fruition, the polarity between the expansive and the
contractive side is gone. Thus there is no experience. When we come back to the
polarized mode we also come back to experience. When we do so, we are
relatively balanced.
are sort of a discharge that gives release for the purpose of purification.
They tend to bring us closer to the center of the cube where all dimensions are
balanced. In the fruition, the polarity between the expansive and the
contractive side is gone. Thus there is no experience. When we come back to the
polarized mode we also come back to experience. When we do so, we are
relatively balanced.
It shuld probably scare me that this not only coheres and makes sense to me as a model construct, but that it correlates very well with a lot of my experience.
The
different doors are approximating constructions having to do with what kind of
discharge was most apparent to us. If the cube were an actual three dimensional
map with real coordinations, it would be possible to pinpoint the exact
location with regard to all three dimensions. That is not really the case since
all these dimensions are paradoxical because they depend on referent points and
scales, but we can still use the idea of it for the purpose of sensemaking.
different doors are approximating constructions having to do with what kind of
discharge was most apparent to us. If the cube were an actual three dimensional
map with real coordinations, it would be possible to pinpoint the exact
location with regard to all three dimensions. That is not really the case since
all these dimensions are paradoxical because they depend on referent points and
scales, but we can still use the idea of it for the purpose of sensemaking.
The
six sides of the cube are only relative directions, but there is no endpoint.
The sides are thus not the doors; they are just these constructed extremes.
six sides of the cube are only relative directions, but there is no endpoint.
The sides are thus not the doors; they are just these constructed extremes.
The eight corners of the cube do not really exist, because that would require that the sides were actually there and that there was finity, that is, something outside of the cube. There isn’t.
Thus, the corners are not the doors. In fact, there are no doors. Doors imply that there is something outside. There is nothing but dependent origination.
But (once again) for the purpose of sensemaking, it is useful to understand it as if there could be intersections resulting in a center and different sides and corners. The closer one gets to a side or a corner of the cube, the ”bigger” release results from the discharge. ”Big” refers to the noticability of the change when coming back and thus getting centered in the cube. I would assume that it is at least theoretically possible to get to fruition from any ”coordinate” within this cube. They are all have a relative position with regard to all of the three dimensions, although since there are no endpoints they are more like angles than actual coordinations (I have very little of Maths in my baggage so I’m probably using the words wrong here; please, bear with me).
I don’t have enough empirical data to say anything about what ”coordinates” are most common, but I would guess that certain clusters are more common than others, or at least most commonly distinguished and reported. It makes sense to assume that it is common for one dimension to be more dominant than the others, hence the notion of three doors. With enough clarity, it makes sense that it would also be possible to distinguish a secondary aspect of there is one, hence the notion of the six different doors. But in reality there should be an infinite number of doors since there is no endpoint in any direction
For sensemaking purpose, the six door versions relate to the cube in the following way:
- The impermanence door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between flow and stillness and has a flavor of either unity (merging) or separation (dividing). Cf the wave-particle model. Everything as continuous flow or everything as vanishings.
- The impermanence door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily between the tension between flow (change) and stillness and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. Caring enough to taking or welcoming initiatives or being able to let go of craving or clinging.
- The no self door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of flow or stillness.
- The no self door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of either caring or letting go.
- The suffering door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or apathy and has a flavor of flow (opening up something that had stagnated) or stillness (calming down something that is too speeded).
- The suffering door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or by apathy and has a flavor of unity (making connections, belonging) or separation (boundaries, integrity).
- The impermanence door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between flow and stillness and has a flavor of either unity (merging) or separation (dividing). Cf the wave-particle model. Everything as continuous flow or everything as vanishings.
- The impermanence door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily between the tension between flow (change) and stillness and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. Caring enough to taking or welcoming initiatives or being able to let go of craving or clinging.
- The no self door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of flow or stillness.
- The no self door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of either caring or letting go.
- The suffering door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or apathy and has a flavor of flow (opening up something that had stagnated) or stillness (calming down something that is too speeded).
- The suffering door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or by apathy and has a flavor of unity (making connections, belonging) or separation (boundaries, integrity).
It should be possible to go through a door that is equally dominated by two of the dimensions.
It should also be possible to go through a door that is dominated by one dimension and with the other two dimensions equally involved.
I suppose it might be also possible to go through a door that is equally much about all three doors. Maybe that’s the ultimate door, to nibbana.
I intend to keep reading and commenting in this thread. I'm just a bit worned out at the moment, so my processing of text is slow. Please don't delete it or your posts!
This is interesting.
love, tim
Tim Farrington:
If this is the product of your mind racing and not making much sense, i'll have a double shot of racing and a no-sense chaser.
Now you're talking. N + 1 doors. This is theory generating hypothesis at its finest.
Again, generating hypotheses from the theory, testable by experiment. Awesome.
Well, thankyou!
Only one person apart from me seemed to see any value in it, and he was psychotic at the time, so you probably shouldn't take it very seriously.
Oh, that wasn’t you. But now two manic persons have independently from each other praised my model. Maybe you just have to be bipolar to understand it. Or maybe this just illustrates exactly how much my mind was racing. Or maybe both.
Shamatha is just a starter drug; once you’re hooked on that, and the phenomology, they offer you just a taste of vipassana. Seen the needle and the damage done. Nuff said.
Oh, that needle inserted itself in daily life long before that.
I have no fucking idea what the fuck you fucking mean by that! Language is the fucking human
state of the art! Crude? What’s the fucking alternative? A delicate silence? A foo-foo wink? Cave art?
Well, cave art, sure.
It can’t in itself capture the experience, but art (including writing as an art) sometimes does a better job because it leaves cracks and gaps for meaning to manifest between the lines.
Everybody's
always
ragging
on
the goddamned "linearity"
of language.
always
ragging
on
the goddamned "linearity"
of language.
Well, maybe you are able to follow more than one direction at a time in your language use, but most people can’t.
Mathematicians and technical depictors do not necessarily "visualize" how they think, though some do.
I was referring to those who actually do.
What they do is discuss or develop correlations between symbolic representations and what we take as actuality. If the correlation is high, we all go oo and ah, and eventually develop nuclear weaons and diet Coke. If there is no obvious correlation of the symbolic creation with anything in "actuality," it is considered "pure" math, which essentially seems to mean that it will take more than the mathematician's own liftime to discover the weird way in which the mathematical object models some aspect of reality so well that someone ends up understanding something better, and other people end up making momney.
Visualization of how you think is, isuspect, what you are most interestedn in, and it seems this post constitutes your own Linda Math, you own symbolic language. But for God's sake let's stop worshipping the fucking wonks and deferring to them every time somebody says "mathematics." Without you, and Hector, and those like you, loving the exploration of of "how" itself, mathematicians would be idle doodlers, and technicians would be exposed for the manipulative control freaks so many of them actually are.
Visualization of how you think is, isuspect, what you are most interestedn in, and it seems this post constitutes your own Linda Math, you own symbolic language. But for God's sake let's stop worshipping the fucking wonks and deferring to them every time somebody says "mathematics." Without you, and Hector, and those like you, loving the exploration of of "how" itself, mathematicians would be idle doodlers, and technicians would be exposed for the manipulative control freaks so many of them actually are.
Thanks...
That's good, just skim right past the "nuts" thing: bury the hook. That's how I do it too.
Lol
Remember that for a model to be truly "scientific," it should generate not just explanations for phenomena already experpienced, but should also be able to point toward new phenomena, as yet unexperienced and even not conceived, that are implied in the model itself. Thus black hole theory fell out of Einstein's General Relativity theory like a clown from a Rolls Royce, followed by an aardvark: didn't see THAT shit coming.
LOL
I find this strangely erotic.
Maybe it’s not my sense-making of fruitions that mimicks orgasms. Maybe orgasms are mimicking how the existence operates.
"Isobarycentre, exercice de barycentres "
CentroidProject SparkDefinition: an isobarycenter, also know as the center of gravity in Physics, is the average of equal masses placed at the point positions. The formula is to add all the points, and divide by the number of points. But fortunately, Project Spark has got a tile for that: "centroid". It needs an object set to work, so you'll have to put all your objects in an object set, or directly use each object (with the in-world picker/object variables and "plus").
By simply treating the above graph as a plane sliced out of your cube for easy represention, and reading "isobarycenter, or center of gravity for what you have in your model termed nibbana, i think you'll see that the mind contemplating this is at first scared shitless and from there proceeds fairly quickly into a condition of breakdown and chaotic disarray, and thus commences another fruitful round of the dukha nanas.
Haha!
It shuld probably scare me that this not only coheres and makes sense to me as a model construct, but that it correlates very well with a lot of my experience.
Tell me more!
i beg to differ, enormusly and radically, but not here now. For the record, for openers: the above statement is the most literal and graphic and strangely naive and endearing defining statement i've ever seen of being Quite Literally Unable To Think Outside Of The Box.
You are misunderstanding me. What I’m saying is: there is no box.
Thus, the corners are not the doors. In fact, there are no doors. Doors imply that there is something outside. There is nothing but dependent origination.
1) I beg, again, to differ, though this may just be linguistic. But there is "something" outside: "God," the unsayable Name, in my tradition. 2) Thus, in my tradition it is true that there is nothing but dependent morigination, but "God" is, precisely, yhat "nothing."
Yes, it’s just linguistic.
love, tim
Love right back at ya.
okay, you crazed visualization-mongers, here's one.
What you do is combine elements from the kama sutra---
with the ancient motif of the ouroboros---
Now consider the yoni and the lingam, the yin and the yang, in the form of female and male human body. An ouroboros lingam, inserted kama sutra fashion deep into a woman's yoni, piercing every chakra up to the fifth, and emerging from her mouth, to have the loop through her closed off by the ouroboros taking its own tail properly in its own mouth, the two now inseparably linked, interwoven.
can you see it?
love, tim