Duel on liberation

Doly G, modified 9 Years ago.

Duel on liberation

Posts: 6 Join Date: 7/10/11 Recent Posts
I'm still surprised I got myself into this muddle, but there it goes. I went to the "Ruthless Truth" site (I think people around here have heard of it, they claim to liberate people by giving them instructions on their discussion board) and got myself tangled in a duel there on the subject of liberation. This is what happened:

http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1247

If you think it looks like an argument among two clueless people, it's probably because it's an argument among two clueless people. That's why I'd like to have the views of the people here. You seem like the guys that would have some neat name for where I'm at and he's at.

By the way, we have agreed that any further discussion on the subject, if it continues, will be on my blog, because it isn't particularly welcome over there. That's also a good place if you'd like to give me any advice and you'd like it to be a bit more private than on this board. My blog is here:

http://always--home.blogspot.com/
C C C, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
I get the feeling wylo wants to "be like Jed" (McKenna). Sometimes it's like he is reading from one of Jed's books. I also get the feeling is is afraid of being laughed at, because he mentions it a lot in that duel with you. This is social anxiety, or in other words, having an extremely high self-concern (or strong ego). I honestly believe most of them on RT are deluded and I feel sorry for them because they must be hurting a lot to need to hold onto that delusion. When a person feels inadequate in their natural state, one of the ways of coping is to pretend to be something special, eg. enlightened. Jed McKenna has the same problem. He's a very entertaining writer, definitely, but every now and then he lets it slip that he is the man... you know? He is the cool enlightened dude. Read, and you'll see an arrogance coming through his work.

When AF became popular in here, everyone started using the special 'AF words' like calenture (who else had to go to online dictionary for that?!). They even started beginning their sentences without capitals. They wanted to be like Richard, so they started imitating his idiosyncracies. You see that with school kids who want to "be like Mike!" Mike wears Reebok, and so do I! But AF is in decline now. There's a new kid on the block. And next month, there will be another and direct pointing will have faded into nothingness...
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
C C C:
I get the feeling wylo wants to "be like Jed" (McKenna). Sometimes it's like he is reading from one of Jed's books. I also get the feeling is is afraid of being laughed at, because he mentions it a lot in that duel with you. This is social anxiety, or in other words, having an extremely high self-concern (or strong ego).

I can confirm to you now that this assessment is completely wrong, well, maybe a bit of ego, but we all behave egoistically, free or not free. Being free allows you to enjoy it, its no longer seen as "wrong", just funny. Back then I was probably still in the "I dont believe in my ego" stage. Now i see, there is no actual ego, but the brain still believes it. Why Im not sure, shits and giggles.

As for social anxiety? lol, not sure what to say to that.

By the way, I dont know if I should take that Mckenna comment as a compliment or an insult, I can promise you now I have not even read one sentence from Jed.

I honestly believe most of them on RT are deluded and I feel sorry for them because they must be hurting a lot to need to hold onto that delusion. When a person feels inadequate in their natural state, one of the ways of coping is to pretend to be something special, eg. enlightened. Jed McKenna has the same problem. He's a very entertaining writer, definitely, but every now and then he lets it slip that he is the man... you know? He is the cool enlightened dude. Read, and you'll see an arrogance coming through his work.

Yea, again, completely wrong, we were just trying to do what we knew worked. If I came across like "I was the man", then sorry ,lol. (maybe I am the man)

When AF became popular in here, everyone started using the special 'AF words' like calenture (who else had to go to online dictionary for that?!). They even started beginning their sentences without capitals. They wanted to be like Richard, so they started imitating his idiosyncracies. You see that with school kids who want to "be like Mike!" Mike wears Reebok, and so do I! But AF is in decline now. There's a new kid on the block. And next month, there will be another and direct pointing will have faded into nothingness...

Direct pointing is here to stay, sure, the crazy shouting and screaming that went on in RT can be left out of it, but the core method aint going nowhere. It works!! emoticon
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triple think, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
It is an established fact that Buddhadhamma dismisses all self concern as irrelevant. This includes any and all concerns about the existence and non existence of self. Whatever realizations people have or proclaim about the self or the not self are also consistently unenlightening displays of ignorant obsessions. No matter how high and mighty they say they are. The Buddha refused to discuss this subject, at all, in any way, over the almost six decades of teaching. None of this is appropriate mindfulness or representative of right view of the eightfold noble path. It is poor in practice and and demonstrably fruitless. Wake up, get a grip, the obsessions with self, or no self, or true self, or primal self or whatever self is ALL wasted time, every second spent on it, all of it leads always and only to the realization of only more ignorance. Appropriate mindfulness which is beneficial is concerned with right thought, right speech and right action, including wholesomeness, harmlessness and blamelessness 24/7. If you hear otherwise its pure horseshit, from the pure horseshit tradition, which will probably always be the largest and loudest tradition.
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Brian Eleven, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 221 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
triple think:
It is an established fact that Buddhadhamma dismisses all self concern as irrelevant. This includes any and all concerns about the existence and non existence of self. Whatever realizations people have or proclaim about the self or the not self are also consistently unenlightening displays of ignorant obsessions. No matter how high and mighty they say they are. The Buddha refused to discuss this subject, at all, in any way, over the almost six decades of teaching. None of this is appropriate mindfulness or representative of right view of the eightfold noble path. It is poor in practice and and demonstrably fruitless. Wake up, get a grip, the obsessions with self, or no self, or true self, or primal self or whatever self is ALL wasted time, every second spent on it, all of it leads always and only to the realization of only more ignorance. Appropriate mindfulness which is beneficial is concerned with right thought, right speech and right action, including wholesomeness, harmlessness and blamelessness 24/7. If you hear otherwise its pure horseshit, from the pure horseshit tradition, which will probably always be the largest and loudest tradition.


Thank You, for this welcome bit of clarity!
Metta
Brian.
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josh r s, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 337 Join Date: 9/16/11 Recent Posts
Now i see, there is no actual ego, but the brain still believes it. Why Im not sure, shits and giggles.


and, seeing this, and if you are perceptive enough, seeing the suffering to yourself and others it causes, are you interested in removing your perceptions of self in form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness?

taking your experience as it is, and accepting, shitting, and giggling about it will only take you so far
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triple think, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
josh r s:
Now i see, there is no actual ego, but the brain still believes it. Why Im not sure, shits and giggles.


and, seeing this, and if you are perceptive enough, seeing the suffering to yourself and others it causes, are you interested in removing your perceptions of self in form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness?

taking your experience as it is, and accepting, shitting, and giggling about it will only take you so far


What there is is volitional formations and the results. Why, nutriment. Anyways. People are on fire and some have a snake by the tail. Some shit, some giggle, people do all kinds of things when they are on fire. The wise might simply repeatedly and rightly say, put the snake down and it will stop biting you, and by the way, you are on fire. Still, the fire isn't going to put itself out and the wise stay a mindful distance from fires and snakes.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
triple think:
What there is is volitional formations and the results. Why, nutriment. Anyways. People are on fire and some have a snake by the tail. Some shit, some giggle, people do all kinds of things when they are on fire. The wise might simply repeatedly and rightly say, put the snake down and it will stop biting you, and by the way, you are on fire. Still, the fire isn't going to put itself out and the wise stay a mindful distance from fires and snakes.


haha, awesome...
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
josh r s:
Now i see, there is no actual ego, but the brain still believes it. Why Im not sure, shits and giggles.


and, seeing this, and if you are perceptive enough, seeing the suffering to yourself and others it causes, are you interested in removing your perceptions of self in form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness?

Theres nothing to remove im afraid. You can fight perceptions or see them. Seeing them is far more liberating.


taking your experience as it is, and accepting, shitting, and giggling about it will only take you so far

And fighting what is will take you no where at all.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
triple think:
It is an established fact that Buddhadhamma dismisses all self concern as irrelevant. This includes any and all concerns about the existence and non existence of self. Whatever realizations people have or proclaim about the self or the not self are also consistently unenlightening displays of ignorant obsessions. No matter how high and mighty they say they are. The Buddha refused to discuss this subject, at all, in any way, over the almost six decades of teaching. None of this is appropriate mindfulness or representative of right view of the eightfold noble path. It is poor in practice and and demonstrably fruitless. Wake up, get a grip, the obsessions with self, or no self, or true self, or primal self or whatever self is ALL wasted time, every second spent on it, all of it leads always and only to the realization of only more ignorance. Appropriate mindfulness which is beneficial is concerned with right thought, right speech and right action, including wholesomeness, harmlessness and blamelessness 24/7. If you hear otherwise its pure horseshit, from the pure horseshit tradition, which will probably always be the largest and loudest tradition.

Interesting, what tends to happen is the self becomes irrelevant alright. You're right , self vs no self, it all becomes pointless.
But, what also happens is a recycling of the words that work. And those words worked
But yea , self/no self whatever.
Its all just thought. It doesnt really matter.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
triple think:
It is an established fact that Buddhadhamma dismisses all self concern as irrelevant. This includes any and all concerns about the existence and non existence of self. Whatever realizations people have or proclaim about the self or the not self are also consistently unenlightening displays of ignorant obsessions. No matter how high and mighty they say they are. The Buddha refused to discuss this subject, at all, in any way, over the almost six decades of teaching. None of this is appropriate mindfulness or representative of right view of the eightfold noble path. It is poor in practice and and demonstrably fruitless. Wake up, get a grip, the obsessions with self, or no self, or true self, or primal self or whatever self is ALL wasted time, every second spent on it, all of it leads always and only to the realization of only more ignorance. Appropriate mindfulness which is beneficial is concerned with right thought, right speech and right action, including wholesomeness, harmlessness and blamelessness 24/7. If you hear otherwise its pure horseshit, from the pure horseshit tradition, which will probably always be the largest and loudest tradition.

Interesting, what tends to happen is the self becomes irrelevant alright. You're right , self vs no self, it all becomes pointless.
But, what also happens is a recycling of the words that work. And those words worked
But yea , self/no self whatever.
Its all just thought. It doesnt really matter.


Have you considered that eliminating the belief in a 'self' or the misperception of some phenomenon as a self is only the first step (and quite possibly a minor one) towards realizing what the Buddha was talking about?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:
Have you considered that eliminating the belief in a 'self' or the misperception of some phenomenon as a self is only the first step (and quite possibly a minor one) towards realizing what the Buddha was talking about?


Satta sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html):

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."


In other words, it is being "caught up" in phenomena that is the problem, and in being caught up, one has perceptions of "being-hood" or "self-hood". To see that these perceptions are not veridical is a step towards seeing that they are harmful, and ultimately bringing them and their causes to an end...but, it is only one step on the path, and not all those who take that step are able to see that there is value in taking the next one.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:


In other words, it is being "caught up" in phenomena that is the problem, and in being caught up, one has perceptions of "being-hood" or "self-hood". To see that these perceptions are not veridical is a step towards seeing that they are harmful, and ultimately bringing them and their causes to an end...but, it is only one step on the path, and not all those who take that step are able to see that there is value in taking the next one.


If the person sees no value in taking the next one, then it should not matter. You cant deny that. If there is a fundamental satisfaction with where that particular person is at, then there is literally no need to even address the issue that there is another "step".

Ill give you a hypothetical example, I have "passed this on" to a few people. The reason for the inverted commas is because I know only that person alone can see it for themselves.

Now, if the next person I was work with was seeking, unhappy , unsatisfied. If during our conversation they said to me they are now happy , they found that inner peace, deep satisfaction. Now, if it seemed that what this person was telling was NOTHING like my experience, nothing to with self. If they said to me something completely different like "I realized humans are just animals", completely random. And if I then asked them "what about the self?", and they said "I dont know, this is nothing to do with the self, im just at peace now".
I wouldnt start accusing them of not being "done", or anything like that, I would just say "hmmm, ok, fair enough, if you truly done, then you're done".
Where "done" means satisfied with the outcome.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
If you feel satisfied, that is your business, and it isn't my place to tell you that you're doing something wrong.

However, have you considered the possibility that there might be something better that you could find or discover by walking further along the path...something which, if you were to discover it, would change your mind about whether you were actually happy and satisfied prior to that?

It sounds like I'm trying to lead you to a particular way of looking at things by that question...in some ways, I am, but in other ways, I'm just curious about what you think. Is your experience right now the best that it could be? How do you know that your satisfaction with the way things are isn't masking a kind of deep suffering? How open are you to exploring that possibility?
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:
If you feel satisfied, that is your business, and it isn't my place to tell you that you're doing something wrong.

However, have you considered the possibility that there might be something better that you could find or discover by walking further along the path...something which, if you were to discover it, would change your mind about whether you were actually happy and satisfied prior to that?

It sounds like I'm trying to lead you to a particular way of looking at things by that question...in some ways, I am, but in other ways, I'm just curious about what you think. Is your experience right now the best that it could be? How do you know that your satisfaction with the way things are isn't masking a kind of deep suffering? How open are you to exploring that possibility?


Im open, really, and Ive no problem with you trying to get me to look at things in a particular way, thats exactly what I do when im trying to introduce the idea of no self to someone else.
BUT, what am I to chase? What am I looking for? It FEELS right now like it would be a completely pointless excerise. That doesnt mean it most definitely would be, but it just feels like that. I dont really know what Id be masking.
Maybe some day something will happen to me where a horrible suffering will be exposed. But in the mean time, what I am supposed to do? Find the suffering?
Theres also a strong reassurance when you watch some of these gurus on youtube. You can kind of laugh along because you can relate to what they are saying. But on the contrary, maybe all "seekers" can to, and thats why they are so appealing.

Its probably worth noting that suffering doesnt mean feeling negative emotions, anger sadness. Its just when there is literally nothing personal about them they hold absolutely no traction. And the end of suffering means the end of thoughts about myself.

The truth is, if I knew more about spirituality I could probably translate this better. If I had a few glimpses or something I could point out the differences, but I cant to be honest. I dont come from that background.

But as I said, Im all ears.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
You know, upon reading some of the other posts here, maybe im really really in the wrong place.
It seems people are trying to attain certain states of mind, there seems to be levels, paths , etc.

All this stuff, I really dont have a clue about. Not in the slightest.


I dont mind continuing to post if it doesnt bother others, its just its possible we are on completely different "wavelengths".I only came on to address that duel.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
Its probably worth noting that suffering doesnt mean feeling negative emotions, anger sadness. Its just when there is literally nothing personal about them they hold absolutely no traction. And the end of suffering means the end of thoughts about myself.


Suppose I invented a drug that changed your brain functioning, so that you would always feel extreme negative emotions for every moment of the rest of your life: sadness, anger, anxiety, etc.

Would you take such a drug on a dare, or for shits and giggles? If not, why not?

wylo de c:
BUT, what am I to chase? What am I looking for? It FEELS right now like it would be a completely pointless excerise.


What was the best moment in your life like, and how does it compare to this moment?

wylo de c:
You know, upon reading some of the other posts here, maybe im really really in the wrong place.
It seems people are trying to attain certain states of mind, there seems to be levels, paths , etc.

All this stuff, I really dont have a clue about. Not in the slightest.

I dont mind continuing to post if it doesnt bother others, its just its possible we are on completely different "wavelengths".I only came on to address that duel.


The only thing that you need, if you're going to post here, is to be interested in talking about the issues that people who post here are interested in.

The fundamental issue, as many here see it, is not about attaining this or that temporary experience, but is about figuring out how to make every moment transcendently wonderful in whatever way may be possible. An "honest" end of suffering, or an attempt to get closer to that.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts

Suppose I invented a drug that changed your brain functioning, so that you would always feel extreme negative emotions for every moment of the rest of your life: sadness, anger, anxiety, etc.

Would you take such a drug on a dare, or for shits and giggles? If not, why not?

oooh , good question, well ,personally because I am in general not an angry person I can honestly say with my hand on my heart that I dont mind anger, really I dont, but no I would not take that drug, just like I would not take a drug that would have me in a state of complete bliss the rest of my life.
Sadness ? No I wouldnt.
Anxiety? Definitely not, but I consider anxiety suffering. I havent experienced any real amounts of anxiety since the shift (if any at all). Anxiety and fear was the enemy, they are the things that are gone. (edit: enemy sounds way over the top, but they are truly the things that if they came back I would be hugely hugely disappointed)

So , maybe you caught me out. No I wouldnt like to feel angry or sad the rest of my life. Feeling clean and normal and appreciate the sprectums of emotion that are warranted, thats what satisfies me. It wouldnt be healthy to feel any of them permanently the rest of your life, because its emotions that twist your view of reality.

I wouldnt like to think that I could take a pill that would make me literally 100% fearless, to the point that I wouldnt care if I standing at the edge of a cliff.
My point to my answer is, if something warrants the emotion I dont personally consider it suffering, thats my own opinion.
If Im angry at something that truly doesnt warrant anger, well then , I see that as a form of suffering.


What was the best moment in your life like, and how does it compare to this moment?

That question is sort of meaningless to me now. There were lots of fantastic moments, lots of crappy moments. But thinking of them is only seen as thought, nothing subsantially real.
However, to be frank about it, because I hate waffly answers. When I was in my late teens , I was at my most carefree/confident and happy possibly. I spent all my 20s wishing I was back at that time because I had a fairly crappy 20s. But now? Yea this is probably the best so far. I dont feel like im living in a dream anymore. It feels like all that was the dream and this is real. I know that wasnt literally a dream , its just how it feels. Im sure a neuroscientist could explain that feeling.



The only thing that you need, if you're going to post here, is to be interested in talking about the issues that people who post here are interested in.

The fundamental issue, as many here see it, is not about attaining this or that temporary experience, but is about figuring out how to make every moment transcendently wonderful in whatever way may be possible. An "honest" end of suffering, or an attempt to get closer to that.

Fair enough, I see your point, , and I appreciate your skepticism, and I appreciate the fact that I could be fooling myself. The brain works in funny ways. And maybe ive just been holding onto this (dare I say the word) liberation.
Truthfully though? No , if anything ive been letting go more and more of the experience I had and just enjoying things as they come.
Ive most definitely stopped holding onto "good feelings" and just go along for the ride now.

Am I going to pretend to you right now that I NEVER feel negative? No. But I guess it just depends on what you want to consider negative.
Do you reckon the Buddha never truly got angry the rest of his life? Just curious , thats not rhetorical.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Actually I dont even like the word negative, it implies theres some sort of correct way to feel. That said , we must put a label on the type of emotions that we would consider "unpleasant".
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Ok Ill try give one quick explanation of where Im at and where Id want to be , not endless bliss, not endless joy or an endless fanstastic mood, but genuine peace.

Since this shift in April, most of time theres an underlying peace, note, MOST of the time. This peace is just emptiness, its not an emotion per say, its behind the emotion , its just a feeling of lack of desire. Not lack of desire like "I dont want that smartphone because I have no desires", but a lack of desire more like a lack of unsatisfactory-ness (not a word im sure).
This underlying peace is quite strong sometimes, and not so much other times.
The stronger it is, the emptier I feel.
The turbulence between when it comes and goes is becoming less and less though.

I guess if I was to be really really greedy, I would want that feeling ALL the time.

But you know what? now even when its not there im fairly content. Its like ive accepted that it comes and goes and I just have to leave it like that.
Maybe that IS that underlying peace in action even without me realizing it.

So yea, thats what I want, if anything, more of that, so yea, my emotions would still carry on , happiness, sadness, etc, but this all the time underlying it.
Its here right now as I type this, but may subside a little tomorrow, its random, nothing seems to decide its "strength"

And it seems the stronger it is, the more the feeling of a lack of centralness there is. That even the boundaries of the body are somewhat irrelivent.
Its difficult to describe without it sounding over the top. Its all very subtle and very unsupernatural.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
It's good to hear (regarding my hypothetical pill) that you still have your senses intact. It's definitely true that when the belief in a 'self' falls away, there can be a lot of relief, and things that used to be unpleasant turn out to be much less unpleasant when the delusion that a self is experiencing them is gone. But, of course, they still remain unpleasant.

You might be surprised to hear that some people stick their head so far into the sand on this issue that they end up in denial of all their personal issues (which they declare not to be suffering, or not to exist), and eventually cause themselves some psychological damage, and mess up their lives. Spirituality can be dangerous. emoticon

I dont feel like im living in a dream anymore. It feels like all that was the dream and this is real. I know that wasnt literally a dream , its just how it feels. Im sure a neuroscientist could explain that feeling.


Well, I am not a neuroscientist, but from observing my own experience and seeing how shifts similar to yours have played out for me, I would say it's quite simple...the delusion that there is a 'self' thinking thoughts and experiencing experience is generated because perception is muddled and blurry. (When certain experiences are blurred together, the blur is experienced as "there is a self thinking this / doing this / experiencing this".) Now, post-shift, you see that there is no 'self' thinking thoughts and experiencing experience...so, rather than being muddled and blurry, your experience is not just metaphorically clearer, but is actually clearer, and your previous life seems like some kind of hazy dream in comparison.

Does that sound right?

Am I going to pretend to you right now that I NEVER feel negative? No. But I guess it just depends on what you want to consider negative.


Well, what each of us considers negative is a personal choice. But, I would say that some experiences are unpleasant, not because anyone decides to think of them that way, but because that's their nature (as the nature of seeing the color blue is for it to look blue).

Do you reckon the Buddha never truly got angry the rest of his life? Just curious , thats not rhetorical.


Yes, I think he never experienced anger after he was enlightened. (That doesn't mean he had a stereotypical "placid" personality, just that he never got angry.)

Why do I think this? Probably for a similar reason that you believe that you'll never be deluded into thinking that there is a 'self' involved in your experience...the delusion of a 'self' involved in experience is caused by a misperception or lack of clarity which you got rid of after the shift you experienced, and the experience of anger is also caused by a misperception or lack of clarity (albeit *much* harder to see), which final enlightenment gets rid of.

Ok Ill try give one quick explanation of where Im at and where Id want to be , not endless bliss, not endless joy or an endless fanstastic mood, but genuine peace.

Since this shift in April, most of time theres an underlying peace, note, MOST of the time. This peace is just emptiness, its not an emotion per say, its behind the emotion , its just a feeling of lack of desire. Not lack of desire like "I dont want that smartphone because I have no desires", but a lack of desire more like a lack of unsatisfactory-ness (not a word im sure).
This underlying peace is quite strong sometimes, and not so much other times.
The stronger it is, the emptier I feel.
The turbulence between when it comes and goes is becoming less and less though.

I guess if I was to be really really greedy, I would want that feeling ALL the time.

But you know what? now even when its not there im fairly content. Its like ive accepted that it comes and goes and I just have to leave it like that.
Maybe that IS that underlying peace in action even without me realizing it.

So yea, thats what I want, if anything, more of that, so yea, my emotions would still carry on , happiness, sadness, etc, but this all the time underlying it.
Its here right now as I type this, but may subside a little tomorrow, its random, nothing seems to decide its "strength"

And it seems the stronger it is, the more the feeling of a lack of centralness there is. That even the boundaries of the body are somewhat irrelivent.
Its difficult to describe without it sounding over the top. Its all very subtle and very unsupernatural.


Well, from your shift, it seems you have come to understand a lot of things:

* Happiness isn't about manipulating pleasure vs. pain, good feelings vs. bad feelings
* Happiness comes from a lack of desire
* Lack of desire isn't dull or boring, but is lack of unsatisfactoriness
* "Emptiness", the lack of a centerpoint in experience, is related to the lack of desire

A very quick way of summing up what I want to ask you is...do you think that your experience of emptiness / less unsatisfactoriness can be increased? If so, would it be something that interests you, even if it requires a meaningful commitment from you in terms of some of the ways you live your life?

There is a deeper way that this issue can be approached, though, and (for the sake of exploring it) I would like to ask you to do an experiment. For the next few days, pay attention to how you feel during every moment (as much as is possible). See if you can discern what kinds of feelings are motivating your actions or reactions. You should look at everything that happens to you, but it can be especially interesting to look at "small" things, such as the feelings that you may have when you fidget around or shift your body's position, the feelings you may have when you decide to get up and do something (rather than sitting around aimlessly and inert), the feelings you may have when you decide to start or end a conversation with someone, etc. (i.e. small everyday stuff.) Go around examining your experience, with the main questions in mind being: "To what extent are these moments peaceful or tense? How would things have to change for there to be more peace and less tension?"

You have to look in a manner that is both extremely detail-oriented (so you don't miss anything) as well as extremely honest (because it can be unpleasant to confront some of what may be found), so, I only ask that if you want to explore this issue, that you look from the heart, with an attitude of really wanting to find out about the details of what your moment-to-moment experience is, for the sake of understanding yourself and the nature of your experience more fully.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Hi End in sight , for the delay , I was away for a while

End in Sight:


You might be surprised to hear that some people stick their head so far into the sand on this issue that they end up in denial of all their personal issues (which they declare not to be suffering, or not to exist), and eventually cause themselves some psychological damage, and mess up their lives. Spirituality can be dangerous. emoticon
I can see how that would happen, extreme denial, and an extreme pressure to no embrace any feelings that may come.


Well, I am not a neuroscientist, but from observing my own experience and seeing how shifts similar to yours have played out for me, I would say it's quite simple...the delusion that there is a 'self' thinking thoughts and experiencing experience is generated because perception is muddled and blurry. (When certain experiences are blurred together, the blur is experienced as "there is a self thinking this / doing this / experiencing this".) Now, post-shift, you see that there is no 'self' thinking thoughts and experiencing experience...so, rather than being muddled and blurry, your experience is not just metaphorically clearer, but is actually clearer, and your previous life seems like some kind of hazy dream in comparison.

Does that sound right?

That sounds pretty accurate yes! emoticon




Why do I think this? Probably for a similar reason that you believe that you'll never be deluded into thinking that there is a 'self' involved in your experience...the delusion of a 'self' involved in experience is caused by a misperception or lack of clarity which you got rid of after the shift you experienced, and the experience of anger is also caused by a misperception or lack of clarity (albeit *much* harder to see), which final enlightenment gets rid of.

Fair point, but I guess personally for me, anger , when it happens is somewhat natural. But I see your point, it would be like being irritated over something silly. Its simply due to a lack of clarity.



A very quick way of summing up what I want to ask you is...do you think that your experience of emptiness / less unsatisfactoriness can be increased? If so, would it be something that interests you, even if it requires a meaningful commitment from you in terms of some of the ways you live your life?

When Im quite deep in it, no I dont really think it can go any further, and actually Im not sure if Id want it to go further, maybe thats some sort of fear of the unknown or something, but no , when deep, its real deep.
BUT, when Im not deep, I suppose yes, it would be nicer for it to go deeper. But its not like i feel bad when Im not deep.

Ok, I realized the way im posting, maybe there is a level of exaggeration, am I never angry? No, am I never sad? no.
BUT, is irrational fear pretty much gone? Yes (there is one and only one exception, something thats "haunted" me my whole life, and that's a completely irrational fear of public speaking, I dont think the brain has ran into the situation enough since the shift to realize that its nonsense, I did one though, and it was streets ahead of what I used to be like) . Is pointless jeolousy/bitterness gone? Yes, is pointless irritation gone? Yes. Is low self esteem gone? Yes. Do I have high self esteem now? No, self esteem is irrelivent now. And that is a good thing. Its peaceful.

ALL THAT SAID, sure Im willing to dig a little further!!! To be frank, I dont care about the word enlightenment, liberation, whatever. Its irrelivent. I'll admit I was going to post certain vids of certain well known teachers and try and make comparisons etc etc. But its pointless. (although I am aware that the fact that I point out i was GOING to do it is pretty much as bad lol!!)

There is a deeper way that this issue can be approached, though, and (for the sake of exploring it) I would like to ask you to do an experiment. For the next few days, pay attention to how you feel during every moment (as much as is possible). See if you can discern what kinds of feelings are motivating your actions or reactions. You should look at everything that happens to you, but it can be especially interesting to look at "small" things, such as the feelings that you may have when you fidget around or shift your body's position, the feelings you may have when you decide to get up and do something (rather than sitting around aimlessly and inert), the feelings you may have when you decide to start or end a conversation with someone, etc. (i.e. small everyday stuff.) Go around examining your experience, with the main questions in mind being: "To what extent are these moments peaceful or tense? How would things have to change for there to be more peace and less tension?"


I will do this, ti sounds like an interesting experiment. Ive been doing already with my mood, not with my physical feelings though.

Just a question though. When you mean "how would things have to change for there to be more peace....", do you mean how would things have to change in my life? Or literally, there and then, what would have to change?
If you could give an example of a situation like that itd be great.

You have to look in a manner that is both extremely detail-oriented (so you don't miss anything)

Ill work on this bit.

as well as extremely honest (because it can be unpleasant to confront some of what may be found),


I always always try and do my best with this bit. Even if it means that I realize that any "unpleasentness" is 100% about me and not anything else.

so, I only ask that if you want to explore this issue, that you look from the heart, with an attitude of really wanting to find out about the details of what your moment-to-moment experience is, for the sake of understanding yourself and the nature of your experience more fully.

Ill give it a go, Ill be frank, I never got this "look from the heart" way of talking, but I think I know what you mean, just be genuinely honest and completely true.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Just one question though, have you ever given thought to the idea that seeing no self can hit one person a lot lot harder (in a good way) than another person? Just curious.

Because ive often been baffled, some people from Ruthless Truth would be seen as free from the belief of self, but still be somewhat underwhelmed. However over time it deepens, but then others (like me) cant help but feel it was an extremely powerful shift (yet ironically everything seemed ridiculously simple too)?
Im not trying to exaggerate or "defend" my experience, I dont really care what anyone thinks anyway, but I mean it when I say that I was in awe after it, for quite a while. I was staring at trees blowing in wind for Gods sake lol! I still do. I couldnt get over that something so significant had happened in my life. I really couldnt (probably worth noting I was never a seeker so it was all fairly unexpected). Sure , the "OMG" factor has died off now and there is a bit stability but I still could never bring myself to say it was the small insignificant step like alot of people from a spiritual community seem to make it out to be.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:

End in Sight:

You might be surprised to hear that some people stick their head so far into the sand on this issue that they end up in denial of all their personal issues (which they declare not to be suffering, or not to exist), and eventually cause themselves some psychological damage, and mess up their lives. Spirituality can be dangerous. emoticon
I can see how that would happen, extreme denial, and an extreme pressure to no embrace any feelings that may come.


Here is an interesting description of that outcome, and the aftermath, as experienced by a spiritual teacher:

http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/read/essays-transcripts/the-birth-and-death-of-fundamentalism-in-nonduality-and-advaita-teachings/


Why do I think this? Probably for a similar reason that you believe that you'll never be deluded into thinking that there is a 'self' involved in your experience...the delusion of a 'self' involved in experience is caused by a misperception or lack of clarity which you got rid of after the shift you experienced, and the experience of anger is also caused by a misperception or lack of clarity (albeit *much* harder to see), which final enlightenment gets rid of.

Fair point, but I guess personally for me, anger , when it happens is somewhat natural. But I see your point, it would be like being irritated over something silly. Its simply due to a lack of clarity.


And, not only is it due to (= caused by) a lack of clarity, but it *is*, in itself, an experience which is unclear and which stands in the way of clarity.


A very quick way of summing up what I want to ask you is...do you think that your experience of emptiness / less unsatisfactoriness can be increased? If so, would it be something that interests you, even if it requires a meaningful commitment from you in terms of some of the ways you live your life?

When Im quite deep in it, no I dont really think it can go any further, and actually Im not sure if Id want it to go further, maybe thats some sort of fear of the unknown or something, but no , when deep, its real deep. BUT, when Im not deep, I suppose yes, it would be nicer for it to go deeper. But its not like i feel bad when Im not deep.


If there is some kind of uneasiness at the thought of going further while you are in as deep as you have been, perhaps it is the residual experience that you mistook for a self in the past that is the cause of the unease, and without that, there would be a deeper experience, as well as no unease.

Ok, I realized the way im posting, maybe there is a level of exaggeration,


No, I think you have been admirably forthright and honest in describing what your attainment is, as well as what it isn't.

As the DhO is, in part, geared towards helping people attain the sort of thing that you have attained, we have a pretty accurate understanding of what your attainment entails in terms of personal transformation, and so what you've said hasn't set off my BS detector.

ALL THAT SAID, sure Im willing to dig a little further!!! To be frank, I dont care about the word enlightenment, liberation, whatever. Its irrelivent.


Right. All that matters is how your experience is, and whether it is better than before, and whether there is more to be seen. Labels are besides the point.

I'll admit I was going to post certain vids of certain well known teachers and try and make comparisons etc etc. But its pointless. (although I am aware that the fact that I point out i was GOING to do it is pretty much as bad lol!!)


emoticon

There is a deeper way that this issue can be approached, though, and (for the sake of exploring it) I would like to ask you to do an experiment. For the next few days, pay attention to how you feel during every moment (as much as is possible). See if you can discern what kinds of feelings are motivating your actions or reactions. You should look at everything that happens to you, but it can be especially interesting to look at "small" things, such as the feelings that you may have when you fidget around or shift your body's position, the feelings you may have when you decide to get up and do something (rather than sitting around aimlessly and inert), the feelings you may have when you decide to start or end a conversation with someone, etc. (i.e. small everyday stuff.) Go around examining your experience, with the main questions in mind being: "To what extent are these moments peaceful or tense? How would things have to change for there to be more peace and less tension?"


I will do this, ti sounds like an interesting experiment. Ive been doing already with my mood, not with my physical feelings though.


If you see a difference between your mood and emotion-related body sensations, feel free to investigate both.

Just a question though. When you mean "how would things have to change for there to be more peace....", do you mean how would things have to change in my life? Or literally, there and then, what would have to change?
If you could give an example of a situation like that itd be great.


I mean, then and there, what aspects of the experience would have to change for it to be more peaceful?

For example...

When someone suddenly interrupts what you're doing to talk to you, there may be tinges of annoyance.

When you see someone you have a crush on, there may be a moment of excitement.

In having a conversation, you may find that there are impulses to say certain things that you think will impress them, or to direct the topic in a certain way, or so on.

How many things are there like this during everyday life? How often are these things guiding your behavior? In cases where you find them, how would your experience have to be altered in that moment to be more peaceful?

so, I only ask that if you want to explore this issue, that you look from the heart, with an attitude of really wanting to find out about the details of what your moment-to-moment experience is, for the sake of understanding yourself and the nature of your experience more fully.

Ill give it a go, Ill be frank, I never got this "look from the heart" way of talking, but I think I know what you mean, just be genuinely honest and completely true.


Yes, it isn't "spiritual" jargon, just honesty and dedication to seeing how things actually are.

Just one question though, have you ever given thought to the idea that seeing no self can hit one person a lot lot harder (in a good way) than another person? Just curious. (...)


Yes. I think there are a variety of different levels of insight into no-self. Also, for whatever reason, moments where these insights happen seem to impact some people more than others for yet-unknown reasons.

However, you may want to keep this in mind...you may believe that I meant that your insight is minor in comparison to normal experience, which is why you're pointing out that many people describe a similar-sounding insight, but are not necessarily impacted as much as you have been. But, I take your word that your insight has been profound and transformative for you, and has given you a perspective on things that is very, very different from what came before it. What I actually meant is that your insight is minor in comparison to how deep the path ultimately goes.

Here is a different way to think about it. Many traditions encourage adherents to renounce all worldly things and live lives dedicated only to spirituality, as monks or the like. (It is almost never considered to be a requirement, but merely something that would make the path easier.)

Is what you attained so profound and so transformative that you would suggest to someone that they renounce everything in order to attain it? Now that you have attained it, if you had renounced everything, would you still be satisfied, or would you (stuck being a monk) think that you were missing out on all the good stuff in life?

As I assume you do not find your current attainment satisfactory in that way, how profound and transformative would it have to be, in order to make the issue of whether one lives as a monk or not irrelevant? In other words, how good would the attainment have to be in order to make the other details of one's life insignificant in the face of having attained it?

Perhaps considering that will give you some idea of how deep the path goes.

(probably worth noting I was never a seeker so it was all fairly unexpected).


You might be interested to know that I never truly considered myself a seeker until after I saw something similar to or identical to what you saw (at which point I started to realize there was something worth seeking, and started to have a faint idea of what it might be).
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:


http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/read/essays-transcripts/the-birth-and-death-of-fundamentalism-in-nonduality-and-advaita-teachings/


Thanks Ill give it a read!



If there is some kind of uneasiness at the thought of going further while you are in as deep as you have been, perhaps it is the residual experience that you mistook for a self in the past that is the cause of the unease, and without that, there would be a deeper experience, as well as no unease.

Well maybe, maybe its the same fear you run into prior to trying to see no self, i.e. "will I become an isolated weirdo because of this?" And the answer is no, there was never a self, the self is an afterthought of the action, so really , theres no reason to fear experiencing more truth, because nothing really will change, only a strenghtened inner silence. So yea, i guess you've convinced me!!

I have to admit one reservation though. As you know (presuming its the same experience), after you see this, there is a slight feeling of seeing everyones bullshit, not like some super power or anything, but just so much around you seems like nonsense (pointless arguments, politics, economics). Its not to say they dont serve a purpose, but it just seems like alot of people are in a never-ending ego serving process.

The problem is, seeing that in everyone around you is nearly a slight hindrance/handicap. Not to the way you function , but to the way you think.

In a way, seeing this is great, but in another way, its somewhat isolating. No one can relate to how you feel. I guess my fear is this feeling would be strengthened even more. Im not sure though. One of the things I had to get over after seeing this was my snobbery, not necessarily looking down on others that dont see it, more like feeling I know more than them, a terrible way of thinking, and I knew it was wrong when I those thoughts arose.

I got over that, and Im back to a healthy position when it comes to that. BUT, I guess I worry that that feeling and the isolation that comes with it may be strengthened.



I mean, then and there, what aspects of the experience would have to change for it to be more peaceful?

For example...

When someone suddenly interrupts what you're doing to talk to you, there may be tinges of annoyance.

When you see someone you have a crush on, there may be a moment of excitement.

In having a conversation, you may find that there are impulses to say certain things that you think will impress them, or to direct the topic in a certain way, or so on.

Ok yes I see what you mean, I think I had been always working on that, but only with the more unsubtle feelings. I'll try do it as often as possible instead.
Dont get me wrong, its not like after seeing this I didnt have some more " brain rewiring" to do, but I guess I just presumed that was part and parcel of post-shift experience. But I can see how it becomes easy to ignore this, and not get the most out of it, or even worse, lose it altogether.




Yes. I think there are a variety of different levels of insight into no-self. Also, for whatever reason, moments where these insights happen seem to impact some people more than others for yet-unknown reasons.

I think this is the big thing Ive learned from talking here. I had always considered it, but overall , personally , it was always a 1 and a zero, i.e. it was either one or the other. But Im learning slowly how some people may be far deeper than I am, and others after the same experience of no self, arent deep at all, and have alot more work to do.
It also explains where all the online arguments about all this come from. Everybody presuming that their own experience is the offical reference point.


What I actually meant is that your insight is minor in comparison to how deep the path ultimately goes.

Fair enough, I guess its really down to how much the person wants it. Whats driving them? A continued suffering? I dont think so, perhaps some people just love the experience more than others, and want more.

At the end of the day, objectively speaking, nothing in the world is changing when people are doing this. Its just the human tapping into their own "mind" and revealing more and more the pointlessness of impractical thought. So it may be a simple fact that some people quite simply enjoy this and have a passion for it more than others.



Here is a different way to think about it. Many traditions encourage adherents to renounce all worldly things and live lives dedicated only to spirituality, as monks or the like. (It is almost never considered to be a requirement, but merely something that would make the path easier.)

Is what you attained so profound and so transformative that you would suggest to someone that they renounce everything in order to attain it? Now that you have attained it, if you had renounced everything, would you still be satisfied, or would you (stuck being a monk) think that you were missing out on all the good stuff in life?

As I assume you do not find your current attainment satisfactory in that way, how profound and transformative would it have to be, in order to make the issue of whether one lives as a monk or not irrelevant? In other words, how good would the attainment have to be in order to make the other details of one's life insignificant in the face of having attained it?


Hmmm, nice question, really tough to answer, are you asking "what would I be willing to sacrifice to keep the feeling of peace of mind thats here now?"

I see your point, that it is so deep for some,that they are willing to sacrificing everything to get it. And that it is obviously not as deep for me ( I agree).

In the first few months, my appreciation for what had happened was so strong that I thought to myself, I would literally refuse to win the lotto if I thought Id lose this, I would give everything away so long as I can eat and have a bed etc. Now? I still think that way. BUT, I wont deny that that hypothetical situation would be a little trickier for me now. But thats only because my appreciation of it has subsided, i.e. Ive forgotten what some of my suffering even felt like. Just little things, I used feel uncomfortable making a phonecall to someone I didnt know for instance, or Id be gripped with mild fear over such silly situations, or I would time and time again feel below someone that had confidence, looked good, bla bla bla. That was my suffering. On the contrary , its worth noting I had alot of moments of high self esteem as well, but that was the problem, I was relying on those sweet moments for happiness, not seeing the real picture. I wont lie, I just as much felt above other people as I did below certain people if you get me. Now? Completely gone, I dont care, a phonecall is a phonecall. Another person is another person, no matter who they are, so on so forth.So its like a dream to me now, all nonsense.
Its not even a relief in a conventional sense, more like "wtf was that all about??? emoticon "

After having a bad dream, you dont spend your whole day relieved that that situation isnt real, you spend about 5/10 minutes relieved, then you wake up properly and stop caring.

Thats what this lack of appreciation feels like.
I guess thats why the question is hard to answer.

Would I suggest to someone else to renounce everything in order to attain this? The only honest way I can answer that is on case per case basis. I remember reading a comment from someone who has had this shift as well, and they said something like "being hungry is better than being depressed, just saying...". I was about to disagree but then I thought about it. Its completely right, one is an annoying slightly uncomfortable inconvenience, another is despair and suffering.
The point im making is, the answer is yes if I thought the person was in a bad way. But no, if they arent.

So what about me? Well Im being honest here when I say I cant identify with the situation. My point is, what happened on that Ruthless Truth site, and whats happening on Liberation Unleashed now was enough. I didnt need to do any of that.
But if I HAD to answer, this would be it...
I would not be willing to lose my family/friends for this peace, especially if I thought it would hurt them. However, I would be more than happy to completely throw away my middle class standard of living, and I mean that.
Realizing this, makes you realize that the happiness by your surroundings is so weak, temporary and ineffective compare to challenging your own beliefs, especially the belief of self. And hence, if it came to it, yes id give up my stuff, but Id draw the line at family.


Perhaps considering that will give you some idea of how deep the path goes.


I see your point now, but going back to something I said earlier, I reckon some people just love digging and digging into it even more. Maybe they just love the serotonin or whatever gives that calm chilled out feeling, whereas maybe others are happy where they are at.
But I wont lie, NOW im interested!!



You might be interested to know that I never truly considered myself a seeker until after I saw something similar to or identical to what you saw (at which point I started to realize there was something worth seeking, and started to have a faint idea of what it might be).


I know what you mean, and to be honest, if I lost this , i.e. if it wore off permanently , then yea I would definitely become a serious seeker. And its true, its only when you see it, you realize theres something worth seeing.

I guess genuine seekers are the people that get short glimpses but go back very quickly to their old way of thinking.
But I dont know if I would consider you a seeker now? Just someone with an interest in deepening. Thats only guess though, I dont know you.emoticon


But part of this for me was realizing that it sort of comes and goes, deepens and undeepens, and once you make peace with the idea of it going away for a few days time or whatever then you really dont mind.

Thanks , youve thought me a few things, but I hope you can see too that sites like the one that started this thread (ruthless truth) really arent to be looked down upon. And the current popular one , liberation unleashed , is made up moreso of spiritual people/seekers that found their answer through no self.
But yea that isnt to say it cant be deepened.

Just a question though, are there other places , both real life and online, as effective as the sites im talking about? Im not trying to prove a point, I dont have any attachment to those sites, one is gone, and the other I havent even started posting on yet, but Im just curious.
The reason I ask is because Im just wondering was I fooling myself into thinking that those sites have a unique approach that works better? Or is there loads of places like that?

Another reason Im asking is because im setting up a sort of central hub website, it will be almost like a magazine site, it wont have any attachment to any place in particular but will definitely promote anything that works, and anything that helps people get out of their own suffering.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:

If there is some kind of uneasiness at the thought of going further while you are in as deep as you have been, perhaps it is the residual experience that you mistook for a self in the past that is the cause of the unease, and without that, there would be a deeper experience, as well as no unease.

Well maybe, maybe its the same fear you run into prior to trying to see no self, i.e. "will I become an isolated weirdo because of this?" And the answer is no, there was never a self, the self is an afterthought of the action, so really , theres no reason to fear experiencing more truth, because nothing really will change, only a strenghtened inner silence. So yea, i guess you've convinced me!!

I have to admit one reservation though. As you know (presuming its the same experience), after you see this, there is a slight feeling of seeing everyones bullshit, not like some super power or anything, but just so much around you seems like nonsense (pointless arguments, politics, economics). Its not to say they dont serve a purpose, but it just seems like alot of people are in a never-ending ego serving process.

The problem is, seeing that in everyone around you is nearly a slight hindrance/handicap. Not to the way you function , but to the way you think.

In a way, seeing this is great, but in another way, its somewhat isolating. No one can relate to how you feel. I guess my fear is this feeling would be strengthened even more. Im not sure though. One of the things I had to get over after seeing this was my snobbery, not necessarily looking down on others that dont see it, more like feeling I know more than them, a terrible way of thinking, and I knew it was wrong when I those thoughts arose.

I got over that, and Im back to a healthy position when it comes to that. BUT, I guess I worry that that feeling and the isolation that comes with it may be strengthened.


Would you believe it if I told you that that feeling is caused by the residual experience that you mistook for a self in the past, too? Thus, the deeper you go, the less of that there is?

I mean, then and there, what aspects of the experience would have to change for it to be more peaceful?

For example...

When someone suddenly interrupts what you're doing to talk to you, there may be tinges of annoyance.

When you see someone you have a crush on, there may be a moment of excitement.

In having a conversation, you may find that there are impulses to say certain things that you think will impress them, or to direct the topic in a certain way, or so on.

Ok yes I see what you mean, I think I had been always working on that, but only with the more unsubtle feelings. I'll try do it as often as possible instead.
Dont get me wrong, its not like after seeing this I didnt have some more " brain rewiring" to do, but I guess I just presumed that was part and parcel of post-shift experience. But I can see how it becomes easy to ignore this, and not get the most out of it, or even worse, lose it altogether.


How is this examination going?


What I actually meant is that your insight is minor in comparison to how deep the path ultimately goes.

Fair enough, I guess its really down to how much the person wants it. Whats driving them? A continued suffering? I dont think so, perhaps some people just love the experience more than others, and want more.


Is there a difference between removing suffering and finding something enjoyable in what comes afterwards?

After having a bad dream, you dont spend your whole day relieved that that situation isnt real, you spend about 5/10 minutes relieved, then you wake up properly and stop caring.

Thats what this lack of appreciation feels like.
I guess thats why the question is hard to answer.


Right.



Perhaps considering that will give you some idea of how deep the path goes.


I see your point now, but going back to something I said earlier, I reckon some people just love digging and digging into it even more. Maybe they just love the serotonin or whatever gives that calm chilled out feeling, whereas maybe others are happy where they are at.


And, maybe that "happiness" is a bad dream in comparison to what lies beyond it, and others realize that.

You might be interested to know that I never truly considered myself a seeker until after I saw something similar to or identical to what you saw (at which point I started to realize there was something worth seeking, and started to have a faint idea of what it might be).


I know what you mean, and to be honest, if I lost this , i.e. if it wore off permanently , then yea I would definitely become a serious seeker. And its true, its only when you see it, you realize theres something worth seeing.

I guess genuine seekers are the people that get short glimpses but go back very quickly to their old way of thinking.
But I dont know if I would consider you a seeker now? Just someone with an interest in deepening. Thats only guess though, I dont know you.emoticon


Though I don't feel like a seeker or feel that I'm seeking anything, I still work towards attaining something, so other people would call me a seeker, and it would be accurate to say that.

I don't consider what I'm doing "deepening" and I'm not sure I consider the process to be one in which the no-self insight (as you understand it) merely needs to be deepened.

William Blake:
To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.


This is the sense in which the no-self insight would be deepened...the only measure of the extent to which belief in self has been given up, is when every moment of experience is like this, and the difference between this and one's current experience is the measure of how much self-belief remains.

What is truly astounding is that this isn't some far-off hope for the future, but something that each person can see and confirm for themselves, conditional on their dedication to the path.

Thanks , youve thought me a few things, but I hope you can see too that sites like the one that started this thread (ruthless truth) really arent to be looked down upon. And the current popular one , liberation unleashed , is made up moreso of spiritual people/seekers that found their answer through no self.


I have never looked down on the direct pointing method.

Just a question though, are there other places , both real life and online, as effective as the sites im talking about? Im not trying to prove a point, I dont have any attachment to those sites, one is gone, and the other I havent even started posting on yet, but Im just curious.
The reason I ask is because Im just wondering was I fooling myself into thinking that those sites have a unique approach that works better? Or is there loads of places like that?


I have no idea. I think that this kind of thing can be quite individual with respect to what works.

Another reason Im asking is because im setting up a sort of central hub website, it will be almost like a magazine site, it wont have any attachment to any place in particular but will definitely promote anything that works, and anything that helps people get out of their own suffering.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.095.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.036.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html

Executive summary of the path.

(The insight into no-self relates to the method of "smashing, scattering, and demolishing" components of experience, as described in the translator's note to Satta sutta. That's why I say that no-self, as you appear to understand it, is a minor insight...it is best conceived to be at the beginning of the path, rather than the end, in my opinion and experience.)
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Andrew Jones, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 336 Join Date: 5/23/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight
The insight into no-self relates to the method of "smashing, scattering, and demolishing" components of experience, as described in the translator's note to Satta sutta. That's why I say that no-self, as you appear to understand it, is a minor insight...it is best conceived to be at the beginning of the path, rather than the end, in my opinion and experience.


I completely agree, I would suggest anyone who is struggling to smash out a direct pointing session and go from there.

Nothing is worse in my mind than people labouring under the illusion of 'getting free' from something that cannot be found to exist. Once understood in an ordinary way by 'looking', meditation indeed becomes more fruitful.

Direct pointing brings the evangelistic fervour to the forefront, and can crack open the understanding. Otherwise known as 'Right View'

"Ardent, Mindful, he trains himself thus". Nowadays renamed; direct pointing.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts


Would you believe it if I told you that that feeling is caused by the residual experience that you mistook for a self in the past, too? Thus, the deeper you go, the less of that there is?

Maybe, i dunno, I think I may have been exaggerating or overspeculating, alot of the time, I just dont feel the "need" to go further.



How is this examination going?
very well, this stuff became very easy after seeing no self.



I
s there a difference between removing suffering and finding something enjoyable in what comes afterwards?

Definitely imo, what I learned since this is you dont have to be unhappy to want something. And thats why I think some people are simply more hooked on deepening than others.



.

And, maybe that "happiness" is a bad dream in comparison to what lies beyond it, and others realize that.

maybe, you can never know whats going on in my head, nor I can yours. What if my "happiness" was the thing that others that claimed to have gone further was the thing they reached when they did? Not saying it is, just saying, no way of knowing.



Though I don't feel like a seeker or feel that I'm seeking anything, I still work towards attaining something, so other people would call me a seeker, and it would be accurate to say that.

Fair enough, thats just labels really, not that relevent.

I don't consider what I'm doing "deepening" and I'm not sure I consider the process to be one in which the no-self insight (as you understand it) merely needs to be deepened.

Fair enough




I have no idea. I think that this kind of thing can be quite individual with respect to what works.

yea I agree

Another reason Im asking is because im setting up a sort of central hub website, it will be almost like a magazine site, it wont have any attachment to any place in particular but will definitely promote anything that works, and anything that helps people get out of their own suffering.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.095.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.036.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html

Executive summary of the path.

(The insight into no-self relates to the method of "smashing, scattering, and demolishing" components of experience, as described in the translator's note to Satta sutta. That's why I say that no-self, as you appear to understand it, is a minor insight...it is best conceived to be at the beginning of the path, rather than the end, in my opinion and experience.)[/quote

Thanks for the links Ill check them out!!

Heres my site anyway, it drops all terms and spirituality, my aim is to get this to the every day internet browser...www.basiscrunch.com
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
How is this examination going?
very well, this stuff became very easy after seeing no self.


And what have you found?

And, maybe that "happiness" is a bad dream in comparison to what lies beyond it, and others realize that.

maybe, you can never know whats going on in my head, nor I can yours. What if my "happiness" was the thing that others that claimed to have gone further was the thing they reached when they did? Not saying it is, just saying, no way of knowing.


I can guess pretty well what isn't going on in your head by the way you describe your experience.

When you describe your experience as constant mystical ecstasy, infinite bliss, absolute perfection, the highest happiness, or anything else along those lines, I will begin to take the possibility you're floating seriously.

Here is a description of a mundane concentration state which isn't enlightenment:

Ajahn Brahm:
Bliss is the dominant feature of the First Jhana, so much so that it is the first thing that one recognizes when reviewing after the Jhana. Indeed, mystic traditions other than Buddhism have been so overwhelmed by the sheer immensity, egolessness, stillness, ecstasy, ultimateness and pure, out-of-this-worldliness, of the First Jhana, that throughout history they have comprehended the experience, on reviewing, as "Union with God."


Ramana Maharshi described the end goal as "sahaja [natural] samadhi", i.e. similar to states of concentration like this, except completely natural, eyes-open, effortless, always enduring.

Is that your experience?

It strikes me that you have some kind of personal investment in seeing your current state as basically similar to what Buddha, etc. talked about, or in doing away with the question of what happiness is, so no meaningful comparison can be made between you and the Buddha, etc. except in terms of talking about no-self. Would that be accurate to say in some way? Or would you say I'm misreading you?

Heres my site anyway, it drops all terms and spirituality, my aim is to get this to the every day internet browser...www.basiscrunch.com


Thanks.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
There is one thing that I thought was worth adding.

Have you considered how prevalent teachings about "no-self" actually are in various contemplative traditions? For example, whether or not a direct understanding of no-self is thought to be liberation or have very much to do with liberation?

My impression is that there is not nearly as much about no-self in these traditions as you (or others) think; however, it is easy to understand what no-self might be about, easy to explain no-self, and insights into no-self are fairly accessible without a great deal of formal meditation practice (hence the success of the direct pointing method). Thus, there is a contemporary preoccupation with no-self in many modern contemplative traditions, including your own; and, further, there is a lack of recognition of the significant variance between this contemporary interest in no-self and what various spiritual traditions talk about in their texts.

Here is a very different take on what liberation entails, from Buddhism, which many people who have benefited from direct pointing seem to have denied both the possibility and the desirability of.

Sallatha sutta:
The discerning person, learned,
doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain:
This is the difference in skillfulness
between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill.


Food for thought?
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts

And what have you found?


Nothing, thats the best part, the more you run into nothing, the more you realize how peaceful things actually are. Whats NOT nothing is just pointless thought,



I can guess pretty well what isn't going on in your head by the way you describe your experience.

When you describe your experience as constant mystical ecstasy, infinite bliss, absolute perfection, the highest happiness, or anything else along those lines, I will begin to take the possibility you're floating seriously.

Here is a description of a mundane concentration state which isn't enlightenment:

Where are you at the moment in this desire for mystical ecstasy , infinite bliss, absolute perfection, highest happiness?
And how do you feel when you're not feeling like that? Have you considered examining what is it that fuels the want to get to that . If you are there now, I genuinely applaud you.


Ajahn Brahm:
Bliss is the dominant feature of the First Jhana, so much so that it is the first thing that one recognizes when reviewing after the Jhana. Indeed, mystic traditions other than Buddhism have been so overwhelmed by the sheer immensity, egolessness, stillness, ecstasy, ultimateness and pure, out-of-this-worldliness, of the First Jhana, that throughout history they have comprehended the experience, on reviewing, as "Union with God."

I can see why that wouldnt be enlightenment to be honest. How long is it supposed to last?

Ramana Maharshi described the end goal as "sahaja [natural] samadhi", i.e. similar to states of concentration like this, except completely natural, eyes-open, effortless, always enduring.

Is that your experience?

I have chatted to many seekers that have been through the same process as myself, some of whom were seekers for a very long time, they know the lingo I dont, what they DID tell me when I asked them was, you learn about all these states, you sometimes experience overwhelming feelings and experiences, but when you genuinely pass through the gate as we like to say, its actually quite normal , almost silly, and very chilled out. All that other stuff seems like nonsense. You see, I cant relate to the other stuff, because I was never aware of any of this in the first place.

It strikes me that you have some kind of personal investment in seeing your current state as basically similar to what Buddha, etc. talked about, or in doing away with the question of what happiness is, so no meaningful comparison can be made between you and the Buddha, etc. except in terms of talking about no-self. Would that be accurate to say in some way? Or would you say I'm misreading you?


I think you're kind of misreading me to be honest, well , to an extent, firstly , a personal investment in trying to have the same state as the Buddha? Nope, I dont care about what state he was in, however I will admit I find his story particularly interesting, just because its a story of a man who was living an unsatisfied life, he knew there was something to see, he knew there was another piece of the puzzle and then he saw it, it was actually real. Something genuinely happened in his brain.
Thats what I find fascinating. But hes just one guy, he wasnt the first and he certainly wasnt the last. I would imagine he was VERY charismatic, and was an excellent public speaker, and was no doubt a really decent nice guy, throw all these together during a time where a search for answers is the trend and you got yourself a religious leader.

But I'll be honest , I dont believe he never got angry, I just believe he was cool with it.
You seem to equate anger to suffering , whereas I equate being bothered about your anger to suffering. Then again, im not that angry a person in general so maybe its a novelty for me. Which leads me to my next point on happiness/content...

Regarding doing away with the question of what happiness is, well you see, theres no measurable unit of content, its not like money where someone is technically richer than somone else. If someone is internally content, honestly and truly internally content , I mean actually content, literally does not associate a wanting to be happier with a negative emotion, then, you cannot tell them they could be MORE content, it just doesn't make sense. Especially not to them.

Do you understand what I mean? If someone truthfully at the bottom of their heart told me they were content and I knew that hadn't seen no self, I wouldn't say to them, "but look , theres no self, you can be even happier than you are now".

Who am I say to that to someone else? And thats what Im trying to say in my last post, you cannot look inside my head and tell me I could be happier, because Im not shouting ecstasy and infinite bliss.
Peace is what I have, and Ill take any day. I know what great feelings of joy feel like, but peace is the best of them all.

Why did I want to see no self when the idea was presented to me? Because content wasn't at a level I knew it could have been at. I knew there was SOMETHING there thats why. Now? well when you are content at all of it, then you can go with the flow, you dont have to be "disappointed" at being angry, you can accept it, you just go with it all, anything that seems like a natural emotion is fine, and if you are not fine with it, then you are not content, then yes, you obviously have reason to try and get even more "enlightened".

I realize that obviously seeing no self punctures a tiny hole for some, and a huge hole for others. Id love to know why, I guess it comes down to biological make up of the brain, pot luck really.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:

And what have you found?


Nothing, thats the best part, the more you run into nothing, the more you realize how peaceful things actually are. Whats NOT nothing is just pointless thought,


As so many people here (who understand "no self" at least about as well as you do) can describe in great detail all the tensions, all the minute things that push and pull on them all throughout the course of a day (which is more or less what I was asking you to investigate), I would ask you to describe what you found in more detail, as these two sentences make it appear that you did not even try.

Where are you at the moment in this desire for mystical ecstasy , infinite bliss, absolute perfection, highest happiness?


I don't have a desire for those things in a sense that you would easily recognize.

Have you considered examining what is it that fuels the want to get to that .


Yes...after every moment of sense-perception comes a moment of tension, which tunes out sensory experience and is experienced as unpleasant in itself. (This is the first and second noble truth: life marred by this tension is suffering.) Seeing this, seeing that it is inherently unpleasant in itself, I find no good purpose to keep that process going.

I have chatted to many seekers that have been through the same process as myself, some of whom were seekers for a very long time, they know the lingo I dont, what they DID tell me when I asked them was, you learn about all these states, you sometimes experience overwhelming feelings and experiences, but when you genuinely pass through the gate as we like to say, its actually quite normal , almost silly, and very chilled out. All that other stuff seems like nonsense. You see, I cant relate to the other stuff, because I was never aware of any of this in the first place.


Have you considered that the seekers you have chatted with have found what you have found, and both you and they have found something that has little to do with what various contemplative traditions are ultimately hoping to guide people to?

Similarly, many "overwhelming feelings and experiences" (i.e. the rapturous bliss, the emotional "wow", the feelings of love and peace) are what we (at the DhO) call A&P events, and are fairly preliminary sorts of experiences, and not the sort of thing that I'm talking about.

In general, why do you assume that you and I are talking about similar things, when I keep saying that there is more to do on the path that is important, and you keep saying that you don't see it? Of course, it's possible we have different value systems...but it's also possible that what I'm talking about is not what you are familiar with.

But I'll be honest , I dont believe he never got angry, I just believe he was cool with it.


On what basis do you believe this? Have you just extrapolated from the experiences of yourself and others, who (as I mentioned) may be quite far from understanding what Buddhism or other contemplative traditions are about, or do you have some further reason to believe that?

Regarding doing away with the question of what happiness is, well you see, theres no measurable unit of content, its not like money where someone is technically richer than somone else.


What can be measured is the presence or absence of tension after sense-experience (and the things that follow from that).

This process is hard to discern, which is why I have asked you to observe your daily experience in the way that I have.

If you don't discern it...well, this process (all-together called "dependent origination") is fundamental to Buddhism, so I would say that indicates that whatever you have attained is fairly preliminary according to the way the Buddha measured things.

In general, instead of discussing what I think and what you think and whether and how we agree or disagree, I would say, if you'd like to investigate what the path is about (as I understand it), let's just go back to the thing I asked you to check out in daily life.

An alternative way to go is...when you look at anything, and you try to keep your attention on it, do you notice that your attention is moving or fluctuating in some way, despite your attempt to keep it absolutely still? If so, we can talk about this phenomenon...although it may not appear to be important, it is related to dependent origination, and so this is an entry-point for insight into that.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
It might help if I state things a little more clearly...the goal of the path is not a kind of exhilarating joy, but the removal of a kind of suffering that most people are not aware that they have, which is equivalent to a kind of peace that cannot be imagined.

As you understand the value of peace (rather than hoping to become happy by manipulating pleasure vs. pain), I thought you would be interested in this kind of thing. emoticon

You may ask how I know that you don't already have this peace. Well, I already asked you: would what you got have been worth abandoning your worldly life for? As you have said that it isn't, I would say you're not quite there yet. emoticon
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
fair enough!emoticon
I guess a lack of being content and extreme curiosity and a bout of honesty is what got me to the point that I am now.

And yes you're right, I am not going to lie, my peace obviously isnt great enough to give up my family.
However, I still think you are being a small bit unfair in terms of realizing the power of how content someone else can be.


Nevertheless I can still do what you ask WITHOUT having to give up my family, so leaving that hypothetical question aside , lets get to it! Im not going to pretend Im not interested, I wouldnt be posting here otherwise would I ? Your "I thought you'd be interested" technique worked lol

Can I ask would you willingly allow your family to suffer in the knowledge that you have abanoned them so you could reach this peace?
Is that how great the peace you talk of is that this would be an acceptable thing to do to achieve it?
just curious
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
ok you're right , lets drop all the debate and get to what you are suggesting, i cant pretend there isnt suffering if Im not even closely examining every waking minute.
Can I ask another question though, what do I do once this is spotted? Suppose I closely examine a feeling , like im driving to work for instance, and I feel an ever so slight bit of tension, somewhere , anywhere, what do I do? Dont get me wrong im not looking for some puzzle to be solved for me, but im just curious really.

But, i would still love to hear the answer to my last question.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
fair enough!emoticon
I guess a lack of being content and extreme curiosity and a bout of honesty is what got me to the point that I am now.

And yes you're right, I am not going to lie, my peace obviously isnt great enough to give up my family.


Fortunately (as you note below) you don't have to.

But, I think that this is a good way to evaluate whatever you have attained...to ask whether it surpasses whatever value you get out of all worldly things.

However, I still think you are being a small bit unfair in terms of realizing the power of how content someone else can be.


Having gone through something similar to what you appear to be going through, I would say, I don't think I'm underestimating anything...rather, I would like to impress on how you utterly, mindbogglingly profound this path can be in comparison to what you've experienced so far.

Can I ask would you willingly allow your family to suffer in the knowledge that you have abanoned them so you could reach this peace?
Is that how great the peace you talk of is that this would be an acceptable thing to do to achieve it?
just curious


This is a different sort of hypothetical, along the lines of "how many children starving to death are equivalent in worth to saving your grandmother?" I don't find any way to evaluate questions like that, so I will have to pass.

But, to be fair, I'll answer my own question: yes, I would give up whatever happiness I currently get from worldly things to attain the peace that I foresee, if I thought that's what was required.

Can I ask another question though, what do I do once this is spotted? Suppose I closely examine a feeling , like im driving to work for instance, and I feel an ever so slight bit of tension, somewhere , anywhere, what do I do? Dont get me wrong im not looking for some puzzle to be solved for me, but im just curious really.


This investigation is fundamentally about discernment...so, let's start with whatever you are able to see right now, and we'll go from there. (I don't know what you can discern or what you can't.)

I would also suggest playing around with trying to hold your attention on something, and seeing if it stays, and if not, seeing if you can discern why not.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts

This is a different sort of hypothetical, along the lines of "how many children starving to death are equivalent in worth to saving your grandmother?" I don't find any way to evaluate questions like that, so I will have to pass.

But, to be fair, I'll answer my own question: yes, I would give up whatever happiness I currently get from worldly things to attain the peace that I foresee, if I thought that's what was required.


So we gave the exact same answer to the exact same question, the only difference is I layed exactly what leaving your worldly things actually entails, and hence my question seemed a little tougher, truth is , it was the same question, it really is a yes or no situation. My answer was
"I would not be willing to lose my family/friends for this peace, especially if I thought it would hurt them. However, I would be more than happy to completely throw away my middle class standard of living, and I mean that.
Realizing this, makes you realize that the happiness by your surroundings is so weak, temporary and ineffective compare to challenging your own beliefs, especially the belief of self. And hence, if it came to it, yes id give up my stuff, but Id draw the line at family."
no difference really.


This investigation is fundamentally about discernment...so, let's start with whatever you are able to see right now, and we'll go from there. (I don't know what you can discern or what you can't.)

Ok, im really going to try here, because if theres one thing I would hate is that I have become close minded after seeing no self, and I wont lie, that did happen for a while.
What am able to see right now? In terms of what, reality ? truth? my own physical feelings?
I guess most of the time I still relate to someone else as if they are the person, the "self" inside them, even though its not true this sometimes turns off, especially when im quite deep.
Regarding oneness etc? Well , when im in a more deep phase, i can relate to what people talk about, genuinely relate to it, it has nothing to do with physical connections, its almost like before it felt my brain was creating the consciousness that I experience, whereas now, or when im deeper than I am right now ( like I was when starting to post here), its like this brain taps into the consciousness that already exists, and its the witnessing of all of that makes it feel like shared consciousness. I dont like that term though, because its based on a feeling, what i really think is happening is, the brain is realizing that its just another part of all the crap around us.
Regarding feelings? When im deep, there is genuine emptiness, this induces a chilled out feeling, not to be mistaken for an image of someone chilled out smoking a joint in the sun , I mean chilled out , as in strong, I could be very chatty, but just a genuine content feeling inside.

But for the last few hours, and last night, Ive been really trying to get closer to the physical feelings you talk of. And its probably a good time because Im not feeling as deep as I do other times, and yes, a small bit of tension is there sometimes, definitely not hugely chilled out, the odd thought arising , most are fine, one or two inducing a very tiny amount of emotinoal feedback, for want of a better phrase, instantly knowing those thoughts mean nothing, however the feeling still residing for about 15 seconds. Theres still that underlying nothingness behind my "louder" thoughts if you get me. But definitely not the tingly nice feeling would get when very deep.

And even just as I write this,right now, a tiny , very subtle feeling of guilt because Im spending my time on this forum and not working on a business I should be starting up.

I would also suggest playing around with trying to hold your attention on something, and seeing if it stays, and if not, seeing if you can discern why not.

This bit is a bit easier, its a technique I used to see no self, Ill do it again now for a few hours. The reason why attention on something gets lost is because there really is no control in the brain, if a thought arises , a thought arises, no me to stop it. That said, im not sure if thats what your getting at. Ill give this a proper try now.


edit: just to lay out my honesty here, as i reread my post, there was a tiny bit of fear that I would no longer relate to my family at all if I got so deep that I didnt even see them as people, just mammals almost, we'll see though, cause I know thats nonsense, its the same fear I had prior to no self.

By the way, Im still confused as to what the idea of all this, not that im not trying to do it, but just wondering, what is the benefit of revealing these very subtle points of suffering? Can they really be tackled down to nothing? Is that what you're getting at?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
So we gave the exact same answer to the exact same question, the only difference is I layed exactly what leaving your worldly things actually entails,


You asked me about hurting others, and I did not answer that.

To be clear, I would give up whatever happiness I currently get from all worldly things (including family and friends), if I thought that's what needed to happen. (That is different from trying to balance my benefit against their happiness.)

Just in case you'd still like to know.


This investigation is fundamentally about discernment...so, let's start with whatever you are able to see right now, and we'll go from there. (I don't know what you can discern or what you can't.)

Ok, im really going to try here, because if theres one thing I would hate is that I have become close minded after seeing no self, and I wont lie, that did happen for a while.
What am able to see right now? In terms of what, reality ? truth? my own physical feelings?


Your moment-to-moment experience. "Reality", "truth", what you think about others in terms of "self", etc. are high-level abstractions that are besides the point here.

But for the last few hours, and last night, Ive been really trying to get closer to the physical feelings you talk of. And its probably a good time because Im not feeling as deep as I do other times, and yes, a small bit of tension is there sometimes, definitely not hugely chilled out, the odd thought arising , most are fine, one or two inducing a very tiny amount of emotinoal feedback, for want of a better phrase, instantly knowing those thoughts mean nothing, however the feeling still residing for about 15 seconds. Theres still that underlying nothingness behind my "louder" thoughts if you get me. But definitely not the tingly nice feeling would get when very deep.

And even just as I write this,right now, a tiny , very subtle feeling of guilt because Im spending my time on this forum and not working on a business I should be starting up.


Keep looking at these kinds of things...all day, 24/7, see whether there are more details you can find.

I would also suggest playing around with trying to hold your attention on something, and seeing if it stays, and if not, seeing if you can discern why not.

This bit is a bit easier, its a technique I used to see no self, Ill do it again now for a few hours. The reason why attention on something gets lost is because there really is no control in the brain, if a thought arises , a thought arises, no me to stop it. That said, im not sure if thats what your getting at. Ill give this a proper try now.


Look closer...try to discern what is going on when your attention shifts, as if your life depended on it. Don't look at it in terms of abstractions about control or lack of control, self or lack of self...just see that process more precisely.

(The answer to the question of what goes on is not conceptual, it will be along the lines of "there is this experience, then there is this experience...")

edit: just to lay out my honesty here, as i reread my post, there was a tiny bit of fear that I would no longer relate to my family at all if I got so deep that I didnt even see them as people, just mammals almost, we'll see though, cause I know thats nonsense, its the same fear I had prior to no self.


1) Yes, the same fear, from the same ego which you've seen not to be self, but which continues to exist independent of that insight.
2) Try putting your attention on a spot in space, and observe the fear (or any other strong emotion) in context of observing your attention move away from what you're seeing.
3) Don't worry about being unable to relate to people, that's fantasy. emoticon

By the way, Im still confused as to what the idea of all this, not that im not trying to do it, but just wondering, what is the benefit of revealing these very subtle points of suffering? Can they really be tackled down to nothing? Is that what you're getting at?


One goal is to try to figure out how much suffering there is. It is impossible to really know whether there's a lot or a little unless you are examining your experience very closely (rather than going through life with much less appreciation of what your moment-to-moment experience of life is).

Another goal is, eventually, to discern how suffering comes into existence, which is the "basic" insight according to the Buddha. Suffering isn't "nothing", it's quite real. The process can be observed, but it's very subtle (much more subtle than what it takes to understand no-self), and it is unlikely that you will ever see it unless you make a concerted effort to look for it.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts

Your moment-to-moment experience. "Reality", "truth", what you think about others in terms of "self", etc. are high-level abstractions that are besides the point here.

Ok cool, for what its worth I hate talking about all that because it serves little person and its just claims of "insights" and a display of theories based on how something feels. I dont really like the word "truth" per say, I just think its a bunch of humans playing with their brain until they get to a point of genuine happiness.



Keep looking at these kinds of things...all day, 24/7, see whether there are more details you can find.

well I guess there is, sometimes its just physical feelings , literally not related to thought, you could quite simply put that down to the food ive eaten, how tired I am etc, but other times thought may induce the feeling, I guess this is the important bit you talk about.
Im not sure if you want me to bore you with a list of tiny things, I may begin to start writing them down myself so I can get a better indication.
Also, this is alot harder to do when your busy. But I will give this full focus as much as possible. Its something Im lucky to have, an ability to apply focus, unfortunately its a slightly impatient focus in that if I dont achieve results on the short term I begin to lose heart. Ill try my best not to let that happen here.
One big one is getting interrupted by my flatmate who may try and start a conversation when Im focusing on this stuff, a slight irritating feeling arises.


Look closer...try to discern what is going on when your attention shifts, as if your life depended on it. Don't look at it in terms of abstractions about control or lack of control, self or lack of self...just see that process more precisely.

(The answer to the question of what goes on is not conceptual, it will be along the lines of "there is this experience, then there is this experience...")

Ok I know what you mean, no concepts, just whats actually happening.
Ive been trying this since reading this post, partially its an element of boredom that causes the change in focus, another cause seems to be the awareness that Im trying to focus on it, and then the thought shifts to stuff like this forum/this conversation if you get me. And then to a lesser extent , a slightly uncomfortable feeling may arise from a thought, so its that last bit I guess I need to look at harder. I guess its just not intense enough ,but that doesnt mean I dont want to get on top of it.


Its worth noting that doing this process seems like a form of meditation and as a result is acting as a "deepner" in itself.



1) Yes, the same fear, from the same ego which you've seen not to be self, but which continues to exist independent of that insight.

Yes it took me about 5 months to realize I was still very much believing in the ego, that realization was quite a liberating one.

2) Try putting your attention on a spot in space, and observe the fear (or any other strong emotion) in context of observing your attention move away from what you're seeing.

I dont really understand this, could you elaborate a little? emoticon

3) Don't worry about being unable to relate to people, that's fantasy. emoticon

Ah yea, it was really very mild, I just wanted to lay EXACTLY what (albeit tiny) thoughts/feeling arose.



One goal is to try to figure out how much suffering there is. It is impossible to really know whether there's a lot or a little unless you are examining your experience very closely (rather than going through life with much less appreciation of what your moment-to-moment experience of life is).

Ok I see what you mean, basically use honesty , dig further , make sure that when you say your happy you mean it, kind of thing, cool.

Another goal is, eventually, to discern how suffering comes into existence, which is the "basic" insight according to the Buddha. Suffering isn't "nothing", it's quite real. The process can be observed, but it's very subtle (much more subtle than what it takes to understand no-self), and it is unlikely that you will ever see it unless you make a concerted effort to look for it.

Yes I know suffering is quite real, but Im wondering how possible it is to destroy every possible tiny feeling. I hope you can appreciate my skepticism. My reservation is that you set yourself up for a fall, I even notice you said in your last post its a peace you "foresee". Its like if you deny yourself any bit of negative emotion then when you DO experience you could very easily lose heart and be far more disappointed? What do you think?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Keep looking at these kinds of things...all day, 24/7, see whether there are more details you can find.

well I guess there is, sometimes its just physical feelings , literally not related to thought, you could quite simply put that down to the food ive eaten, how tired I am etc, but other times thought may induce the feeling, I guess this is the important bit you talk about.


You shouldn't assume that reactions due to food and tiredness aren't due to thought (= habitual mental reaction). They could be due to thought, but not the conventional kind of discursive thought, but something subtler.

(Depends on how you understand what "thought" means.)

Im not sure if you want me to bore you with a list of tiny things, I may begin to start writing them down myself so I can get a better indication.


Maybe the best way to pursue this will be for you to keep private notes on this kind of thing, as you continue to make observations, and use what we talk about publicly (below) to try to refine what you can see.

Look closer...try to discern what is going on when your attention shifts, as if your life depended on it. Don't look at it in terms of abstractions about control or lack of control, self or lack of self...just see that process more precisely.

(The answer to the question of what goes on is not conceptual, it will be along the lines of "there is this experience, then there is this experience...")

Ok I know what you mean, no concepts, just whats actually happening.
Ive been trying this since reading this post, partially its an element of boredom that causes the change in focus, another cause seems to be the awareness that Im trying to focus on it, and then the thought shifts to stuff like this forum/this conversation if you get me. And then to a lesser extent , a slightly uncomfortable feeling may arise from a thought, so its that last bit I guess I need to look at harder. I guess its just not intense enough ,but that doesnt mean I dont want to get on top of it.


Do you notice that your attention is shifting often (once per second or more), or only very rarely?

When you experience boredom, or recognizing that you're trying to focus, or anything else like that which causes attention to shift, what exactly are you seeing out of your eyes at that precise moment? Can you tell if anything changes visually?

Also, do you notice that, every time your attention shifts, there is a feeling associated with that (whether positive, negative, or neutral)? (You may not notice this if you're daydreaming or your attention is shifting while you're not aware, so you have to look closely.)

Its worth noting that doing this process seems like a form of meditation and as a result is acting as a "deepner" in itself.


Yup.

Another goal is, eventually, to discern how suffering comes into existence, which is the "basic" insight according to the Buddha. Suffering isn't "nothing", it's quite real. The process can be observed, but it's very subtle (much more subtle than what it takes to understand no-self), and it is unlikely that you will ever see it unless you make a concerted effort to look for it.

Yes I know suffering is quite real, but Im wondering how possible it is to destroy every possible tiny feeling.


I can give a couple of explanations, but maybe this is the one you would be able to relate to best.

Think of it in materialistic terms: your brain has some structure or collection of structures that operate in a way to cause negativity of all kinds. If you can really hone your ability to see the small components of your experience, you can begin to observe this "negativity-generating function" as it plays out in experience. If you can observe it very clearly, you can exert some direct control over it, and you can control it indirectly by learning what sorts of things turn it "higher" or "lower". If you continually nudge it towards a "lower" setting, eventually that sticks, and your experience changes in a permanent way. At that point, you simply have to repeat the process.

The "negativity-generating function" also has all kinds of cognitive effects, so inhibiting it may change your perspective on some things (this is "deepening" the no-self insight, among other things).

Anyway, it is your assumption that the feelings you call "tiny" are actually tiny or insignificant...you would have to compare what experience was like when they are completely suspended in order to be sure. Right?

I hope you can appreciate my skepticism. My reservation is that you set yourself up for a fall, I even notice you said in your last post its a peace you "foresee".


Well, perhaps I should have been clearer. After playing with the "negativity-generating function" for long enough, you'll get some idea of what it's like when it's extremely inhibited (or off). Then, you'll be able to foresee what the goal of the path is like, in the sense that you'll be able to say, from direct experience, "it's *at least* this good, or better..."

Here is what the Buddhists say:

Kosambi sutta:
It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of [these negative experiences] is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant [liberated]...


Its like if you deny yourself any bit of negative emotion then when you DO experience you could very easily lose heart and be far more disappointed? What do you think?


I think I have nudged this "negativity-generating function" so far down that I find this fairly unlikely. emoticon

The interesting thing about this path is that it does not require faith (as in belief without any evidence)...if you pursue it, you should be able to see for yourself what it's doing for you and get some glimpse of what the goal will be like. Then, the only doubt you will really have is the doubt that comes from your "negativity-generating function" (as that is not tied to anything rational).
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts

You shouldn't assume that reactions due to food and tiredness aren't due to thought (= habitual mental reaction). They could be due to thought, but not the conventional kind of discursive thought, but something subtler.

(Depends on how you understand what "thought" means.)


ok ill keep this in mind, im closely examining every single feeling, sometimes it feels like im purposely bringing out "bad" feelings or tension, but im not sure, i guess I need to do more observing before trying to figure out the direct cause.
Its easy to spot the obvious "thought causing feeling" but Ill work on it more.



Maybe the best way to pursue this will be for you to keep private notes on this kind of thing, as you continue to make observations, and use what we talk about publicly (below) to try to refine what you can see.


ok sounds good , thanks for your time btw. If I do get this I will happily do the same for others.

Look closer...try to discern what is going on when your attention shifts, as if your life depended on it. Don't look at it in terms of abstractions about control or lack of control, self or lack of self...just see that process more precisely.




Do you notice that your attention is shifting often (once per second or more), or only very rarely?

I would say often, not as often as once per second, maybe every few seconds? and maybe very very very quick loss in between the slightly more obvious ones, if you understand me? as in, almost proper focus for a few seconds, and then day dreaming begins to kick in. Its not really a bad feeling that kicks in.

When you experience boredom, or recognizing that you're trying to focus, or anything else like that which causes attention to shift, what exactly are you seeing out of your eyes at that precise moment? Can you tell if anything changes visually?

I guess whatever is being thought, its easy for me to say "whatever im looking at", but no, I think I know what you mean, what is being seen is the daydream, if only very quickly, an example would be an imagining of the text on this forum for instance, or an image of trying to focus on something rather than actually the true focus.

Also, do you notice that, every time your attention shifts, there is a feeling associated with that (whether positive, negative, or neutral)? (You may not notice this if you're daydreaming or your attention is shifting while you're not aware, so you have to look closely.)

It varies, but I think I may have to look closer, its been mainly neutral, definitely not good, but not really bad either, just neutral, maybe a TINY hint of disappointment that the focus isnt as good as I would have expected. But that disappointment wouldnt even be strong enough to induce a physical feeling to be honest.




Think of it in materialistic terms: your brain has some structure or collection of structures that operate in a way to cause negativity of all kinds. If you can really hone your ability to see the small components of your experience, you can begin to observe this "negativity-generating function" as it plays out in experience. If you can observe it very clearly, you can exert some direct control over it, and you can control it indirectly by learning what sorts of things turn it "higher" or "lower". If you continually nudge it towards a "lower" setting, eventually that sticks, and your experience changes in a permanent way. At that point, you simply have to repeat the process.

ok I understand the idea here, I guess the trick is to really find what this negativity generating function actually is and what allows it to happen.

The "negativity-generating function" also has all kinds of cognitive effects, so inhibiting it may change your perspective on some things (this is "deepening" the no-self insight, among other things).

Anyway, it is your assumption that the feelings you call "tiny" are actually tiny or insignificant...you would have to compare what experience was like when they are completely suspended in order to be sure. Right?

Do you mean if I only felt that feeling and no other feeling for a period of time, then yea sure , you're right, it would be horrible , I guess i was putting the insignificance down to the length of time it lasts.



Well, perhaps I should have been clearer. After playing with the "negativity-generating function" for long enough, you'll get some idea of what it's like when it's extremely inhibited (or off). Then, you'll be able to foresee what the goal of the path is like, in the sense that you'll be able to say, from direct experience, "it's *at least* this good, or better..."

I think I follow, you basically get a few glimpses at how good it is, these glimpses turn to longer looks, before (hopefully) becoming permanent.



The interesting thing about this path is that it does not require faith (as in belief without any evidence)...if you pursue it, you should be able to see for yourself what it's doing for you and get some glimpse of what the goal will be like. Then, the only doubt you will really have is the doubt that comes from your "negativity-generating function" (as that is not tied to anything rational).

Well I like the style here tbh, I didnt realize it would be so to the point regarding physical feelings and have so little to do with faith. You've probably guessed from my talking that faith really aint my thing.

Im just wondering something else, is the final target an actual reachable target? Is it a standard thing people geniunely do if you give this the time? Or is it a situation that you have the lucky few in a hundred or whatever?
I guess the reason why the sites I talk about appeal to me so much is because of the success rate, any people that genuinely want to give the no self thing a go will more than likely succeed. Would you consider this process (post no self) as the same?

Thanks again
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
I will write a full response later, but I wanted to address this issue briefly.

wylo de c:
Im just wondering something else, is the final target an actual reachable target? Is it a standard thing people geniunely do if you give this the time? Or is it a situation that you have the lucky few in a hundred or whatever?
I guess the reason why the sites I talk about appeal to me so much is because of the success rate, any people that genuinely want to give the no self thing a go will more than likely succeed. Would you consider this process (post no self) as the same?


I would say, it depends on how much time and effort you put into it, and how much you desire it, as well as unknown personal factors.

We here at the DhO are building a fairly impressive track-record, but only time will tell for sure. (We are also refining our methods as time goes on.)

There are a few people here who claim that their experience is perfect or nearly so due to their past practices.

I am not quite there, but in comparison to how things are for me now, my previous experience (prior to beginning serious meditation a few years ago) was like an extended stay in hell. (I had no mood disorders or anything like that; I thought I felt fairly normal at the time, though was moodier than most people are.)

Even if you don't reach the end, it doesn't matter, because you likely will be able to confirm that every step on the path makes life a little bit better, because the "negativity-generating function" can be turned off by degrees. (You can adjust your style of practice to find a way to make this happen.) And who would pass up the opportunity for more peace?

Finally, I'd guess that if you were able to gain insight into no-self rather quickly, you would be predisposed to having an easier time with the rest of the path than the average person.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts


I am not quite there, but in comparison to how things are for me now, my previous experience (prior to beginning serious meditation a few years ago) was like an extended stay in hell. (I had no mood disorders or anything like that; I thought I felt fairly normal at the time, though was moodier than most people are.)

and was this previous experience after seeing no self? Just curious.

Even if you don't reach the end, it doesn't matter, because you likely will be able to confirm that every step on the path makes life a little bit better, because the "negativity-generating function" can be turned off by degrees. (You can adjust your style of practice to find a way to make this happen.) And who would pass up the opportunity for more peace?


Ok yea I see, I get your point, I also got a bit of an insight in this thread. Since seeing no self I could never figure out why other people never took to the idea when I explained it to them. I just thought to myself "why on Earth would they turn down an opportunity for something real cool." Yet low and behold I was doing the same thing here. They were giving the exact responses Im giving here. Im after realizing it is very difficult for someone to accept they could be even happier without very very close examination and brutal honesty.

I think I get the idea of your focus experiment now by the way, Ive been doing it alot , also focusing on feelings, but I think the focusing on a single thing reveals how LITTLE focus Im actually giving to whatever else, however seen as this has been deepening again, I notice my focus is improving slightly.

I just hope I dont end up on a long drawn out path where there is an argument to say ignorance is bliss, if you get me, i.e. opening up something that you dont finish off, is worse than not opening it at all. We'll see.

But nonetheless, I have been giving this a serious go the last few days, and will continue to do so, I find it is deepening anyway, but that may be just standard fluctuation like has been happening already. We'll see.doi
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:


I am not quite there, but in comparison to how things are for me now, my previous experience (prior to beginning serious meditation a few years ago) was like an extended stay in hell. (I had no mood disorders or anything like that; I thought I felt fairly normal at the time, though was moodier than most people are.)

and was this previous experience after seeing no self? Just curious.


I had a clear intellectual understanding of no self before I began meditating seriously (i.e. I would have brushed off the direct pointing method as redundant). After some meditation, I came to a "direct" understanding of no self...and while at the time it seemed profound and transformative, I would say, compared to things right now, that was still rather terrible.

I just hope I dont end up on a long drawn out path where there is an argument to say ignorance is bliss, if you get me, i.e. opening up something that you dont finish off, is worse than not opening it at all. We'll see.


If for some reason I had to stop now, I would say that the time I've spent on this was *very* well-spent...no regrets.

Again, I will respond to your earlier post later...but, keep up the investigation, as in many ways it's just a matter of putting in the time to refine your ability to discern things, and knowing what things are worth trying to discern.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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wylo de c:

ok sounds good , thanks for your time btw. If I do get this I will happily do the same for others.


Good!

I see, from the other thread you posted, that your investigation of stuff in daily life has been pretty fruitful so far.

Do you notice that your attention is shifting often (once per second or more), or only very rarely?

I would say often, not as often as once per second, maybe every few seconds? and maybe very very very quick loss in between the slightly more obvious ones, if you understand me? as in, almost proper focus for a few seconds, and then day dreaming begins to kick in. Its not really a bad feeling that kicks in.


Look very closely at the "very very very quick loss [of attention]".

When you experience boredom, or recognizing that you're trying to focus, or anything else like that which causes attention to shift, what exactly are you seeing out of your eyes at that precise moment? Can you tell if anything changes visually?

I guess whatever is being thought, its easy for me to say "whatever im looking at", but no, I think I know what you mean, what is being seen is the daydream, if only very quickly, an example would be an imagining of the text on this forum for instance, or an image of trying to focus on something rather than actually the true focus.


Tell me if this is a fair summary of the insight you just described:

1) When attention shifts, your sensory experience is not clear in the way it would normally be expected to be
2) When attention shifts, you perceive a mental representation of the thing you were previously paying attention to, rather than the thing itself

If so, you should explore these two issues further.

1) Really, what is your sensory experience like in these moments? Does your visual field disappear? Distort? Vibrate? Become murky? What?

2) Is this true for all senses? What about when you're listening to something (sounds, music, speech)? What about when you're touching something?

Also, do you notice that, every time your attention shifts, there is a feeling associated with that (whether positive, negative, or neutral)? (You may not notice this if you're daydreaming or your attention is shifting while you're not aware, so you have to look closely.)

It varies, but I think I may have to look closer, its been mainly neutral, definitely not good, but not really bad either, just neutral, maybe a TINY hint of disappointment that the focus isnt as good as I would have expected. But that disappointment wouldnt even be strong enough to induce a physical feeling to be honest.


The thing that is important to look for at this point is, at the very beginning of these moments, there is an experience of tension of some kind...you may experience it as mental tension (stress, constrictedness), or you may experience it as physical tension in a certain region of your body (muscle tension, physical pain), or you may experience it as a mixture of both. Whether it is strong or weak, see if you can find it.

You may find a lot of different things during these "attention-shift" moments...thoughts, desires, daydreams, false ego, etc., but look for the tension.

The insight into no-self has set you up to be able to see this better than a person who doesn't have that insight, as, without the insight, all these experience during the moment of attention shifting will be understood as "things I am doing" (or even "me"), which clouds a person's ability to see them as mere phenomena in experience, as well as a person's ability to analyze them instead of experiencing them in a "blurred" way.

Anyway, it is your assumption that the feelings you call "tiny" are actually tiny or insignificant...you would have to compare what experience was like when they are completely suspended in order to be sure. Right?

Do you mean if I only felt that feeling and no other feeling for a period of time, then yea sure , you're right, it would be horrible , I guess i was putting the insignificance down to the length of time it lasts.


I meant something else, but this is a valid insight too.

What I had in mind was, sometimes certain negative experiences seem insignificant, but this can be because of what they're being compared to. For example, you could ask "how much less negative could things be?" and if you cannot imagine things being much less negative (due to not having experienced that), you might conclude that some feelings are fairly innocuous...but, if you had a different standard to compare to, you might change your mind about how innocuous they really are.

Also, I hope I answered your question about the practical issues surrounding a path like this well enough for you.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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End in Sight:
Also, do you notice that, every time your attention shifts, there is a feeling associated with that (whether positive, negative, or neutral)? (You may not notice this if you're daydreaming or your attention is shifting while you're not aware, so you have to look closely.)

It varies, but I think I may have to look closer, its been mainly neutral, definitely not good, but not really bad either, just neutral, maybe a TINY hint of disappointment that the focus isnt as good as I would have expected. But that disappointment wouldnt even be strong enough to induce a physical feeling to be honest.


The thing that is important to look for at this point is, at the very beginning of these moments, there is an experience of tension of some kind...you may experience it as mental tension (stress, constrictedness), or you may experience it as physical tension in a certain region of your body (muscle tension, physical pain), or you may experience it as a mixture of both. Whether it is strong or weak, see if you can find it.

You may find a lot of different things during these "attention-shift" moments...thoughts, desires, daydreams, false ego, etc., but look for the tension.


To clarify this...the tension I have in mind may be or may not be related to what you described just above.

For an example of it, consider an experience like anxiety...there are different components to it, but one of them is a tension, often experienced as an unpleasant sensation ("sinking feeling") in the stomach, or as a component of that unpleasant sensation. Similarly, consider an experience like "over-concentrating" (as when one tries to focus too hard)...there are different components to it, but one of them is a tension, often experienced as an unpleasant sensation (headache, constriction, muscle tension) in the head, or as a component of that unpleasant sensation.

The tension I'm asking you to look for is along these lines...its qualities may be different, and it may be many times more subtle, but it's this sort of thing.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Regarding the almost instantaneous TINY losses of attention/lack of focus before daydreaming altogether...

Tell me if this is a fair summary of the insight you just described:

1) When attention shifts, your sensory experience is not clear in the way it would normally be expected to be

yes true its very unclear, I can barely keep focus at all.

2) When attention shifts, you perceive a mental representation of the thing you were previously paying attention to, rather than the thing itself

sort of I guess, Im not sure if I have it as clear as that though, it feels more like a blankness, then maybe the thought about focusing on it, before going back to real focus (for another tiny amount of time), this may all happen in an extremely short amount of time.

If so, you should explore these two issues further.

1) Really, what is your sensory experience like in these moments? Does your visual field disappear? Distort? Vibrate? Become murky? What?


I guess the best way of describing it is , imagine watching a movie where the camera is on a person and you are concentrating on this person and what they are saying, and the background is a sort of blankness only because you are not actually paying attention to it, almost like it doesnt exist anywhere in your head even though its right there. Its sort of like what I was trying to focus ON becomes the "background", i.e. blankness/nothing/distorted(not existing in the head but still right there). But the difference is there is no "person" to replace what I AM thinking about when the attention shifts. I need to try harder to see what the actual attention is shifting TO.

Im only referring to short losses here, the longer ones later on are much easier to spot because it just becomes normal standard daydreaming/boredom if you get me..


2) Is this true for all senses? What about when you're listening to something (sounds, music, speech)? What about when you're touching something?

I tried that for a while before replying, and yes, its the exact same phenomenon.

I guess to sum up whats happening is, you're never focused on anything, you just constantly go in and out of focus on things, and what Im starting to realize is the "in focus" part is only a tiny fragment compare to the amount of time you are out of focus.



The thing that is important to look for at this point is, at the very beginning of these moments, there is an experience of tension of some kind...you may experience it as mental tension (stress, constrictedness), or you may experience it as physical tension in a certain region of your body (muscle tension, physical pain), or you may experience it as a mixture of both. Whether it is strong or weak, see if you can find it.

You may find a lot of different things during these "attention-shift" moments...thoughts, desires, daydreams, false ego, etc., but look for the tension.

This is a tough one to answer, yes a tension arises, but im not sure if I can find it in those TINY shifts in focus (maybe a small bit, ill explain in a second). however, after a few seconds a more obvious tension definitely does arise.

the small shifts in focus: a minute mental sort of stress
when I begin to lose focus properly: the stress spreads to that sinking feeling in the stomach you referred to (not being lazy with responses, I just happen to be able to relate really well to that feeling you talk of, it seems to be focal point where suffering spreads from), but also a tension down my back a bit, just a mild unease.

Its worth reminding you, these are really really subtle, but ironically still obvious and undeniable for that matter. And this kind of stuff only really happens when I try and dig deep like I have been.

I meant something else, but this is a valid insight too.

What I had in mind was, sometimes certain negative experiences seem insignificant, but this can be because of what they're being compared to. For example, you could ask "how much less negative could things be?" and if you cannot imagine things being much less negative (due to not having experienced that), you might conclude that some feelings are fairly innocuous...but, if you had a different standard to compare to, you might change your mind about how innocuous they really are.

I think Im already seeing exactly what you are saying, my standards in 'happiness' and clarity are already rising rapidly, to a point that something as silly as hearing a song I wasnt too pushed left me feeling like I was suffering (VERY VERY subtle mind you), but you know, a tiny little sinking feeling that I would have otherwise completely ignored and not cared about.
As I mentioned in the other thread, Im feeling more exposed to negativity due to this.
I guess its part and parcel of what happens, its like when you learn something like an instrument, a guitar for instance, when you first pick it up, and you get to a point of just about getting 3 chords together after 2 months, you are ecstatic, yet 2 years later you are disappointed because you missed one note while trying to play a difficult Jimi Hendrix solo.


Also, I hope I answered your question about the practical issues surrounding a path like this well enough for you.


Thanks you've been helpful, my only issue is, Im still not sure what it is Im doing exactly? Ive a much better idea where I want to be, and you have outlined how it is possible, and NOW I understand how you can want to target something, yet have vastly improved from where you were before (only because Im getting a real taste of more clarity the past few days).
BUT, im still not sure how this works , or what Im doing , or if this will be able to be intergrated into real life situations.

Its all well and good sitting in happiness at home with clear thinking, but one spark of a fearful situation, and I could be left wondering what good is any of it.

Im not bashing it all by any means, you've proven how you can tap into more clarity, and with that insight alone it makes me realize what kind of clarity is available that im not even aware of. But as I said, im just confused a little of what this focusing/attention shifting process is actually about and what would it achieve in terms of more serious fear inducing situations.

Sorry I keep talking of fear, mainly because its my personal point of suffering, its been the one thing that stopped me enjoying this life the way it should be lived. And seeing no self gave me a real opportunity to realize the utter absurdity and pointlessness of fear, and this conversation has proven that absurdity goes all the way 'to the end' of fear if you get me!!
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Will respond to the rest later...

Also, I hope I answered your question about the practical issues surrounding a path like this well enough for you.


Thanks you've been helpful, my only issue is, Im still not sure what it is Im doing exactly?


Since you started with some skepticism about what more there is to do, and you are not a person inclined to lean on faith alone, it seems to me that the best approach for you will be to observe, explicitly:

1) Every moment of unhappiness (whatever the cause) is a moment where attention shifts and sense-experience is tuned out,
2) Every moment where attention shifts and sense-experience is tuned out has a tension associated with it, (Second Noble Truth)
3) Those moments are also the origin of "symbolic experience", i.e. your reactions to and opinions about the world, false ego, representations of other experiences, etc.,
4) When the tension is reduced, all of that is reduced, and there is less suffering as well as a deeper understanding of no self, (Third Noble Truth)
5) Attention shifts constantly (multiple times per second), leading to a persistent and ongoing sense of self, as well as a persistent and ongoing stream of suffering. (First Noble Truth)

When you observe these things explicitly, you will not have any more skepticism, and I'd say that's where your practice is at this point...still observing.

Ultimately, the aim of practice is to reduce the tensions...there are myriad ways, but the basic idea is fairly simple. However, if you don't see what it is you're trying to reduce, it's easy to make a mess of things.

Makes sense? Sounds good?
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Thanks for the response, I understand now that I need to fully discern what and where and when the unpleasant feelings are first, and I understand that a tension arises due to a lack of focus.
Just one quick question if you dont mind, when you talk of reducing the tension, do you talk of reducing the lack of focus (is that even possible?) or just reducing the tension thats associated?
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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you know what ? I think I can answer that almost immediately myself there, as I sat there I felt a small unease (for no reason I think of) and instantly I realized I was completely out of focus.

This is going to take some time Id say
Thanks.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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When there is tension, there is lack of focus...when there is less tension, there is clarity. (According to Buddhism, tension is the cause of the tuning out of sense-experience, along with the symbolic thinking stuff that goes with it.)

And when there is no tension? Find out for yourself emoticon

EDIT: Although tension is the cause of the lack of focus, you can work on it the other way around...if you figure out how to reduce the lack of focus, whatever you're doing that makes that happen can also be observed to be reducing tension.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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ok cool, I was going the wrong way around (even though you said thats possible Id rather find the tension that causes the lack of focus)
Ill get on this! Cheers
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Hi End in Sight, just wondering whats the name of this specific type of meditation/practice? Just so I can do more reading about it. It seems far more effective than the one Ive always known , (the one Ive only ever done in the past was watching your breathing and allowing thoughts to dissipate)
It seems to have been very effective, however Im also aware that I go through very deep phases anyway, so maybe its a coincidence.
I understand the idea of the negativity generator now. Basically that tiny split second blur/lack of focus is the central point for negativity to grow, its when your in that blur there is potential to suffer.

Its not that the situation that caused the suffering matters, its the fact that you you were lost in that blur. And the more you address the blur and not the situation, the less effective it starts to become.

Im not sure if I can find the tension you refer to, I guess I was expecting the tension to be a "bad feeling", but maybe this tension you refer to is simply the blur/lack of focus that induces negativity.

Ive been extremely "deep" the past few days, today , not as much, but that said, I notice that those very sublte negative feelings aren't popping up.

Im quite excited about pushing forward with this. If it can be mastered, i can see how even something like my fear of public speaking could become non existent because Im getting right to the core of the lack of focus that causes it.

It obviously wouldnt work the first time, but Im thinking it could be extremely effective very quickly afterwards.

Maybe Im on the wrong track altogether, let me know sure, and also if I could get the name of it (mindfulness meditation??), thanks
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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wylo de c:
Hi End in Sight, just wondering whats the name of this specific type of meditation/practice? Just so I can do more reading about it. It seems far more effective than the one Ive always known , (the one Ive only ever done in the past was watching your breathing and allowing thoughts to dissipate)


It's called "vipassana", but many things go under that name which aren't really the same as this.

You could call it "hardcore vipassana", but that won't help you look up any info.

In general, it's not the method that's important...it's the fact that you're looking into the details of your experience, and trying to figure out how the details relate to suffering at a fundamental level.

(The breathing meditation you mention is very effective, once you can make out all the little details I'm asking you to make out. emoticon )

In terms of Buddhism, this sort of thing would be classified as developing mindfulness as well as right view (two out of eight components of the path):

Satipatthana sutta:
Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths? There is the case where he discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress.' He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is the origination of stress.' He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is the cessation of stress.' He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.'


You might want to keep in mind that, when you look up information about meditation, some information may be geared towards attaining the insight into no-self you have already attained...as you are well aware, not everyone who talks about spirituality or meditation recognizes that there is something to do beyond that. (You should not even assume that professed Buddhists understand the Four Noble Truths. Some may, some may not.) One way to assess how far a practice goes is just to ask: "Is this practice aimed at eliminating fear, anxiety, unhappiness, etc. completely, or does the person proposing it deny that such a thing is possible or desirable?"

It seems to have been very effective, however Im also aware that I go through very deep phases anyway, so maybe its a coincidence.


Effective for what? Discerning details? Changing your experience? Both?

I understand the idea of the negativity generator now. Basically that tiny split second blur/lack of focus is the central point for negativity to grow, its when your in that blur there is potential to suffer.

Its not that the situation that caused the suffering matters, its the fact that you you were lost in that blur. And the more you address the blur and not the situation, the less effective it starts to become.

Im not sure if I can find the tension you refer to, I guess I was expecting the tension to be a "bad feeling", but maybe this tension you refer to is simply the blur/lack of focus that induces negativity.


You don't understand the negativity generator well enough until you see the tension (which would be experienced either as a physical tension or a mental tension, depending on a variety of factors). Like I said, it takes subtlety to discern this...so keep looking, as the more you look, the more you hone your ability to see things like that. (Just because it takes subtlety, however, doesn't mean that the tension is small.)

(Even when you see the tension, there is still much more about the "blur" moment which can be discerned, though those details are less important.)

Some ideas:

1) Try looking for something that occurs a split-second before the "blur".

2) Ask yourself "how do I feel right now / what's my mood?", and then try to figure out how you know. Where does your attention go when you try to look at or assess your mood? Is it entirely a mental place, as most people assume, or is there a physical component? (This is easier when you feel more negative, but can be done in any case.) Let me know what you find and we can talk about where to go from there.

Also, how are you doing in terms of seeing the frequency at which the "blur" moment occurs?

Im quite excited about pushing forward with this. If it can be mastered, i can see how even something like my fear of public speaking could become non existent because Im getting right to the core of the lack of focus that causes it.


Yes.

It obviously wouldnt work the first time, but Im thinking it could be extremely effective very quickly afterwards.


Just to be clear...the method is ultimately one in which you discern the moment of tension, and then find ways to reduce it...reducing it leads to permanent changes thereafter...it isn't a method that needs to be applied in any particular moment to get an effect in that moment, though building up a high level of insight into your mental processes will probably give you a surprising amount of self-control which you can do all kinds of helpful things with.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts

You might want to keep in mind that, when you look up information about meditation, some information may be geared towards attaining the insight into no-self you have already attained...as you are well aware, not everyone who talks about spirituality or meditation recognizes that there is something to do beyond that. (You should not even assume that professed Buddhists understand the Four Noble Truths. Some may, some may not.) One way to assess how far a practice goes is just to ask: "Is this practice aimed at eliminating fear, anxiety, unhappiness, etc. completely, or does the person proposing it deny that such a thing is possible or desirable?"

I see what you mean, I guess i've transferred from the second school of thought to the first.

It seems to have been very effective, however Im also aware that I go through very deep phases anyway, so maybe its a coincidence.


Effective for what? Discerning details? Changing your experience? Both?

Both, I seem to be able to get a very accurate pinpointing moment (this "blur") where suffering arises. Its worth noting Ive risen my standard to ridiculously high standards because of this converstation, what i mean by suffering is something as simple as feeling a slight discomfort because I heard a song I dont like emoticon, i.e. my tolerance has become very low.


You don't understand the negativity generator well enough until you see the tension (which would be experienced either as a physical tension or a mental tension, depending on a variety of factors). Like I said, it takes subtlety to discern this...so keep looking, as the more you look, the more you hone your ability to see things like that. (Just because it takes subtlety, however, doesn't mean that the tension is small.)

(Even when you see the tension, there is still much more about the "blur" moment which can be discerned, though those details are less important.)

Ok ill keep working on this, im a little confused as to what Im looking for...

Some ideas:

1) Try looking for something that occurs a split-second before the "blur".

Ok so you talk about this tuning out happening every second practically, I can see this, so when you talk about this tension, are you talking about microseconds here? Ill keep at it anyway.

2) Ask yourself "how do I feel right now / what's my mood?", and then try to figure out how you know. Where does your attention go when you try to look at or assess your mood? Is it entirely a mental place, as most people assume, or is there a physical component? (This is easier when you feel more negative, but can be done in any case.) Let me know what you find and we can talk about where to go from there.

This is good idea, Ill work on this and get back to you, thanks. The good thing is, I think I had already been doing this to a small extent since we last spoke, but wasnt paying attention to the importance of it.

Also, how are you doing in terms of seeing the frequency at which the "blur" moment occurs?

Yea , I see it just happens almost ALL the time,



Just to be clear...the method is ultimately one in which you discern the moment of tension, and then find ways to reduce it...reducing it leads to permanent changes thereafter...it isn't a method that needs to be applied in any particular moment to get an effect in that moment, though building up a high level of insight into your mental processes will probably give you a surprising amount of self-control which you can do all kinds of helpful things with.

yep I can see hints of this alright. Not that I can nearly do it fully enough, but Ive been able to do it to an extent so far.
Ironic really, you realize there is no entity/self controlling the body, yet doing this sort of reintroduces this idea.

Just to give you a run down of what Ive been doing and where Im at.

If Im at home, or not too busy, I would spend some time seriously focusing on something, I would see how the blur keeps coming and coming, it doesnt particularly seem to go away. I could be doing this for a quite a while.
If Im busy I just try and transfer that to general experience, all my senses, not quite as easy because there's so much going on.
I find that the level of clarity seriously heightens if Ive been at it for a while.

I find that Ive a small level of control over the development of a negative thought/suffering. Its like I can go back to the route of it and see it was caused by a lack of clarity, and sort of make it "go away" by focusing on the clarity of direct experience.

If I experience a more sudden fearful moment I still get taken by surprise, but the experience is seen alot more as just an experience and is a result of an extreme sudden shaking of that clarity. It doesnt seem to have any feedback effect.

Thanks again, i hope im not losing focus on what you are trying to say, today definitely hasnt been as solid as other days. But Im going to get back to it now.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Everything you've been doing so far sounds good to me.

wylo de c:

Effective for what? Discerning details? Changing your experience? Both?

Both, I seem to be able to get a very accurate pinpointing moment (this "blur") where suffering arises. Its worth noting Ive risen my standard to ridiculously high standards because of this converstation, what i mean by suffering is something as simple as feeling a slight discomfort because I heard a song I dont like emoticon, i.e. my tolerance has become very low.


You'd be surprised how ridiculous your standards can get, once all the conventional suffering is gone.

It's worth asking yourself: when you hear a song you don't like, does it suddenly bother you now whereas it never did before, or did it always bother you but you were unaware of that? (It could also be a combination of these, as noticing what's always been bothersome can produce some kind of "loop feedback" that makes things temporarily more bothersome.)


You don't understand the negativity generator well enough until you see the tension (which would be experienced either as a physical tension or a mental tension, depending on a variety of factors). Like I said, it takes subtlety to discern this...so keep looking, as the more you look, the more you hone your ability to see things like that. (Just because it takes subtlety, however, doesn't mean that the tension is small.)

(Even when you see the tension, there is still much more about the "blur" moment which can be discerned, though those details are less important.)

Ok ill keep working on this, im a little confused as to what Im looking for...


You can also think about

3) Try to focus really "hard" on something, as if you're forcing your attention onto it. Notice that this produces a feeling of "straining" or mental stress, but you can also observe whether there is a tension or constricted sensation in your head which is related to this impression. If you can see that, then recognize that other negative experiences tend to be analogous to this, i.e. if you have a feeling of unease, there is a spot in your body that is associated with that feeling, and there is a tension there too (though the tension might be qualitatively different...for a really obvious example, fear is typically associated with a "sinking feeling" in the stomach, which is like a combination of tension and pain, which is still tension, but not the same kind of tension that you feel in your head).

Then, go back to 2): "How do I feel right now?" See if how you feel corresponds with a location on your body that your attention keeps being drawn to, and see if you can find a tension there.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:


You'd be surprised how ridiculous your standards can get, once all the conventional suffering is gone.

I can see how that would happen

It's worth asking yourself: when you hear a song you don't like, does it suddenly bother you now whereas it never did before, or did it always bother you but you were unaware of that? (It could also be a combination of these, as noticing what's always been bothersome can produce some kind of "loop feedback" that makes things temporarily more bothersome.)


I see how this lines up with the idea of the tension alright, that the song used "never bother me" and how now by observation I can see it actually is, a bit like the tension (probably should mention this was just a silly once off situation but its an interesting example of close observation)




You can also think about

1) Try looking for something that occurs a split-second before the "blur".

2) Ask yourself "how do I feel right now / what's my mood?", and then try to figure out how you know. Where does your attention go when you try to look at or assess your mood? Is it entirely a mental place, as most people assume, or is there a physical component? (This is easier when you feel more negative, but can be done in any case.) Let me know what you find and we can talk about where to go from there.

3) Try to focus really "hard" on something, as if you're forcing your attention onto it. Notice that this produces a feeling of "straining" or mental stress, but you can also observe whether there is a tension or constricted sensation in your head which is related to this impression. If you can see that, then recognize that other negative experiences tend to be analogous to this, i.e. if you have a feeling of unease, there is a spot in your body that is associated with that feeling, and there is a tension there too (though the tension might be qualitatively different...for a really obvious example, fear is typically associated with a "sinking feeling" in the stomach, which is like a combination of tension and pain, which is still tension, but not the same kind of tension that you feel in your head).

Then, go back to 2): "How do I feel right now?" See if how you feel corresponds with a location on your body that your attention keeps being drawn to, and see if you can find a tension there.

Ok I took your advice, the bit that probably stuck out the most was the bit in bold in your second point, I was STILL despite everything you had said, associating every mood aspect of mine with thought/mind. But upon a closer look there is a mild but now annoyingly undeniable tension , its not NEARLY as bad as the sinking feeling like fear, actually its nothing like it, and not as bad as the type of tension that grows in the head when doing the really hard focusing, but nonetheless its there, and now that I see it , it seems to be there all the time, lol emoticon
I dont want to sound silly, but I hope its not bad timing, Ive a tiny bit of a cold coming on, so I hope its not linked to that, but I dont think it is, because this feeling has often been there, not always mind you, in really deep moments I would feel nice and "cozy" , but yea for the most part it is there, and now that I see its fairly undeniable.
Where is it? I would have to say down the back to the back of the stomachish area if that makes sense, its very subtle and Im still not sure if Im making it up for the sake it of it , or is it due to something like bad posture, but if this feeling sounds familiar to you Im all ears!!
This is probably the first time Ive moved my concentration and experience of "no self"/liberation/whatever away from the mind to somewhere else (with the exception of the blast of fear from time to time).

I guess where Im struggling is, Im trying to discern how it could be related to mental suffering, and also what it has to do with the lack of focus (for example) when doing some intense concentration, but that said, it shouldnt be hard to understand, after all, the very process of me going for a run and doing a bit of exercise can leave me feeling fantastic later on, which is proof in itself that the body has a direct effect on the mind.

If you think im being a bit hasty let me know, but maybe not, this might be what you are talking about.

Thanks
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
You can also think about

1) Try looking for something that occurs a split-second before the "blur".

2) Ask yourself "how do I feel right now / what's my mood?", and then try to figure out how you know. Where does your attention go when you try to look at or assess your mood? Is it entirely a mental place, as most people assume, or is there a physical component? (This is easier when you feel more negative, but can be done in any case.) Let me know what you find and we can talk about where to go from there.

3) Try to focus really "hard" on something, as if you're forcing your attention onto it. Notice that this produces a feeling of "straining" or mental stress, but you can also observe whether there is a tension or constricted sensation in your head which is related to this impression. If you can see that, then recognize that other negative experiences tend to be analogous to this, i.e. if you have a feeling of unease, there is a spot in your body that is associated with that feeling, and there is a tension there too (though the tension might be qualitatively different...for a really obvious example, fear is typically associated with a "sinking feeling" in the stomach, which is like a combination of tension and pain, which is still tension, but not the same kind of tension that you feel in your head).

Then, go back to 2): "How do I feel right now?" See if how you feel corresponds with a location on your body that your attention keeps being drawn to, and see if you can find a tension there.

Ok I took your advice, the bit that probably stuck out the most was the bit in bold in your second point, I was STILL despite everything you had said, associating every mood aspect of mine with thought/mind. But upon a closer look there is a mild but now annoyingly undeniable tension , its not NEARLY as bad as the sinking feeling like fear, actually its nothing like it, and not as bad as the type of tension that grows in the head when doing the really hard focusing, but nonetheless its there, and now that I see it , it seems to be there all the time, lol emoticon
I dont want to sound silly, but I hope its not bad timing, Ive a tiny bit of a cold coming on, so I hope its not linked to that, but I dont think it is, because this feeling has often been there, not always mind you, in really deep moments I would feel nice and "cozy" , but yea for the most part it is there, and now that I see its fairly undeniable.
Where is it? I would have to say down the back to the back of the stomachish area if that makes sense, its very subtle and Im still not sure if Im making it up for the sake it of it , or is it due to something like bad posture, but if this feeling sounds familiar to you Im all ears!!


Perhaps your cold has cleared up now...do you still notice the same thing? Does your experience keep shifting from sense-experience to this and back again?

If so, you're on the right track...but, don't assume that this is the tension I'm talking about. There is no unique tension. Rather, there are all different sorts, and if you keep looking, you'll find more. In fact, you may ultimately discover that your entire body is one big ball of tension...

This is probably the first time Ive moved my concentration and experience of "no self"/liberation/whatever away from the mind to somewhere else (with the exception of the blast of fear from time to time).


Why do you assume that it isn't mental (caused by or equivalent to the mind's reaction)? Just because it has a spatiotemporal location? The mind is a lot bigger than you think... emoticon
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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End in Sight:


Perhaps your cold has cleared up now...do you still notice the same thing? Does your experience keep shifting from sense-experience to this and back again?

Hi,
Cold is gone yep, and today this feeling was there for much of the day, I tend to keep focus on it, not sure if thats a good thing.

Actually today it has been pretty prominont, I would imagine the old me prior to no self would have been have quite simply in a bad mood today, luckily irritation doesnt come up anymore (especially since this thread), BUT that feeling is there nonetheless and its not nice.


If so, you're on the right track...but, don't assume that this is the tension I'm talking about. There is no unique tension. Rather, there are all different sorts, and if you keep looking, you'll find more. In fact, you may ultimately discover that your entire body is one big ball of tension...


I'll just give you a quick summary of what goes on here overall,
When Im "deep" (as I like to say), Im real deep, as in, genuine peace , stillness in the mind and a very warm feeling in the body. Maybe I should have used the word bliss in the past to be more clear.
HOWEVER,, for a while I was losing that deepness from time to time, sometimes for days etc but then eventually accepted that it will come and go.
THEN, I started posting here, and you showed me that it should be possible to get this deepness all the time.

So, with close close observation I have been examining every feeling possible, whether I felt good or not. I keep at it and at it, examining my sense experience, overall this has deepened this whole thing for me.
I tend to be in different 'states'
1. Pretty much feeling perfect, genuinely trying to find anything possible outside the inner peace and with true honesty , saying to myself "I cant feel better than this". Next to impossible to find tension.

2. Feeling ok, in a decent mood, feeling good physically and mentally, quite deep, but definitely not as good as that "perfect" feeling. Tension can be found but extremely extremely subtle.

3. Feeling the way I am today, and some other days, the tension real obvious , and clearly knowing it is also affecting my mind and my mood, and just quite simply knowing im not that perfect feeling id like to be in. On the contrary ,also acknowledging that despite this , a "stronger" suffering is gone.
Today was a real test, I was stuck with someone who used irritate me from time to time, even though we are good friends. And I had this feeling of discontent throughout the day, noting the prominent tension in the back (almost anxiety, but FAR more subtle than that, to the point that Id have reservations about using words like that). Yet, despite all that , he didnt annoy me once, I just kept close attention to my own feelings, mainly this back feeling.

I wont lie, it got me down today, even at one point it induced a very subtle "few seconds long" depression, quickly in and out, Im perkier now, but the tension is still subtly there.

I dont know if Im completely off track here. I think i may need solid feedback as to where Im at. Throughout this time, I have spending alot of the time focusing on all my senses, and doing some more close focus on a single point etc. At first I thought I had figured out a way of controlling any point of suffering using this focus. Because it came clear to me that thought was inducing conventional suffering. But now today, I couldnt find any thought that was inducing this feeling. It seemed like this feeling was independent of the fiction of what goes on in the head.

Feedback on all this would be great, apologies if im going off track.



Why do you assume that it isn't mental (caused by or equivalent to the mind's reaction)? Just because it has a spatiotemporal location? The mind is a lot bigger than you think... emoticon

Well im not sure to be honest, I think I was just thinking out loud there! emoticon

It can be tough sometimes posting, today was a good day to reply, because of the fluctuation in 'feelings'. I could be feeling absolutely deep and chilled and peaceful both mentally and physically tomorrow while reading back on this if you get me. And ill probably have this want to edit it all, lol!! That aint gonna happen though!. Ill keep it as it is.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
You're on the right track...here's a list of things I think you should work on specifically.

1) You notice a tension in your abdomen which relates in some way to a negative mood. What other tensions do you notice that are related to negative experiences?

These are good choices of things to examine:

a) Boredom / restlessness. Put yourself into a situation in which you are likely to be bored...lock yourself in a closet for awhile with nothing to do, if you must. Where does your attention move to when you assess whether you're bored? Where does it move to when you feel an urge to change something?

b) Aversion to pain. Grab something very cold (such as a bag of frozen vegetables) and hold onto it; where does your attention go when you feel a desire to let go?

c) Anger (if it arises). You claimed that it wasn't unpleasant before. But, surely it will be easy to discern the tension involved in it.

d) Lust / sexual experience (if it arises). People say that they like sex because it's pleasurable, but the experience is a complicated mix of pleasure and tension. Can you see that sexual pleasure is distinguished from pure pleasure by the addition of various kinds of tension?

e) "Consciousness". When you look for consciousness, this can sometimes produce a sensation of looking at consciousness. This sensation involves tension; where is the tension? (You may find it easier to observe this by asking "Who am I?" and waiting for the feeling of being a self to arise in answer to that...for the sake of this experiment, ignore the fact that the feeling is not self and has nothing to do with self.)

f) When you slowly move your attention from the crown of your head to the base of your spine, it is often possible to notice a variety of feelings that vary depending on the area being observed...what do you notice? Are there tensions involved? (The specific locations most likely to have various feelings may be something like: crown of head, forehead, throat, chest, solar plexus, abdomen, pubic region, base of spine.)

2) How often are there split-second moments of tuning out experience? Specifically, are you tuning it out at all in this case:

wylo de c:

1. Pretty much feeling perfect, genuinely trying to find anything possible outside the inner peace and with true honesty , saying to myself "I cant feel better than this". Next to impossible to find tension.


If you are tuning it out, look harder to see where your attention is moving in those split-second moment.

3) What happens during "tuned out" moments can be analyzed into many constituent parts...they are not simple experiences. What can you see happening so far? (You will likely be looking at this one for awhile, as the subtlety is fairly high, so keep looking for more detail even if you don't see how there could be any more.)

Cold is gone yep, and today this feeling was there for much of the day, I tend to keep focus on it, not sure if thats a good thing.


For the purpose of investigating 3) you may be better off noticing how experience shifts from the senses to the feeling and back, fully observing the movement back and forth in as much detail as possible. (What you're doing can be useful for reducing or controlling the tension...it can be quite effective in that context.)

Apart from all these, you can try formal meditation if you're interested. There are two variations that I think you should consider, and I would suggest using whichever you think suits your mind and personality more at the moment. A detailed explanation at this point is not as helpful as giving them a shot to see what you can figure out by yourself.

Meditation 1: Sit in a comfortable position with eyes closed, pay attention to the physical sensation of your breath in your body (e.g. at your nose or abdomen), don't follow any trains of thought, and examine 3) in context of the perception of your breathing.

Meditation 2: Sit in a comfortable position with eyes closed, pay attention to your breath in whatever way suits you, don't follow any trains of thought, and see if you can figure out how to be simultaneously extremely relaxed and extremely alert. (These are completely compatible.) If you can achieve a moderate amount of relaxation and alertness, don't settle there...go for more. (One hint is that, to do this, you will have to simultaneously feel good in a physical way, and reduce the amount that you tune out your experience.)

That is a significant amount of direction, so post your observations after you've experimented with these things. Give it a few days, at least.

At first I thought I had figured out a way of controlling any point of suffering using this focus. Because it came clear to me that thought was inducing conventional suffering. But now today, I couldnt find any thought that was inducing this feeling. It seemed like this feeling was independent of the fiction of what goes on in the head.


Can you explain this more thoroughly?
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:
You're on the right track...here's a list of things I think you should work on specifically.

1) ....
That is a significant amount of direction, so post your observations after you've experimented with these things. Give it a few days, at least.

Thanks for all of this, Ill work on in thoroughly over the next few days/week (I dont think I cant now lol)



At first I thought I had figured out a way of controlling any point of suffering using this focus. Because it came clear to me that thought was inducing conventional suffering. But now today, I couldnt find any thought that was inducing this feeling. It seemed like this feeling was independent of the fiction of what goes on in the head.


Can you explain this more thoroughly?


Since this thread Ive observed quite clearly that a lack of focus induces a lack of clarity. Prior to this , if there was even mild irritation I would challenge the belief.
small example: I would arrive home and the kitchen would be ever so slightly messy because of my flat mate, there would be a tiny amount of irritation and I would say "this irritation is nothing to do with the kitchen being messy , its my own irritation". (ill point out that the kitchen would have only seemed "messy" because i love things spotless)

I was trying to be honest but I was stopping too soon, leaving it at that, and hoping that if I do that enough the feeling will stop arising.

The problem was I was still accepting the lack of focus/lost in thought type situation.

I then learned that none of that "kitchen messy" thought was relevant, the only thing that was relevant was that the lack of focus/lack of clarity/slight blur that was causing pointless feelings. I effectively began to expose any of those feelings, by simply trying to keep focus on the sense experience and seeing that the only reason that irritation arose was because I was lacking clarity and focus.
And it seems (so far anyway) that this has been extremely effective at killing off any "conventional suffering" (if thats what you meant by conventional suffering). It seems that the mind is beginning to give up even trying to get lost in that nonsense. And even if it does, it doesnt "inject" those physical feelings through the body.

Yesterday was a great test, i wasnt feeling great, and I was with a friend who would sometimes be irritating, but even in this more negative feeling state, he still wasnt annoying me. It just wasnt happening.

I think its something you said about Buddha that stuck with me. I had doubted that the Buddha never got angry, you pointed out the only reason he'd be angry is because there is a lack of clarity (well thats what I took from it anyway), and I kind of transferred that to my own thinking observations.


HOWEVER, all that said, to explain what I meant in that last post, yesterday, there was unease, lack of contentment, and I couldnt figure out why, it didnt feel like conventional/lack of focus type suffering, i.e. the one I just described there. Its like that tension was turning into a mild anxiety. It didnt feel like thought was causing the situation, that if anything the physical unease was causing slight negative thought, im not sure though. I wasnt doing anything wrong if you get me.

I think when you get into this, there is no going back. My description of yesterday in the past (before no self) would have been simply "I was in a bit of a bad mood yesterday". It would have happened alot more. Whereas now, especially since starting to post here, as the standards get so high, even just a few hours of being in a bad mood can feel like you've lost everything and that it was all for nothing!! lol.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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wylo de c:
I then learned that none of that "kitchen messy" thought was relevant, the only thing that was relevant was that the lack of focus/lack of clarity/slight blur that was causing pointless feelings. I effectively began to expose any of those feelings, by simply trying to keep focus on the sense experience and seeing that the only reason that irritation arose was because I was lacking clarity and focus.
And it seems (so far anyway) that this has been extremely effective at killing off any "conventional suffering" (if thats what you meant by conventional suffering). It seems that the mind is beginning to give up even trying to get lost in that nonsense. And even if it does, it doesnt "inject" those physical feelings through the body.


Apart from the investigation we've been talking about, this (staying with sense experience, steering away from the blur) is very good...how much of your waking life can you do this for? Ultimately, your goal should be "all of it"...it should be your default state, unless you are doing something else like investigating.

"All of it" is a fairly high standard, so keep trying to get there...you obviously don't need to reach that goal to make progress, but the closer you get, the faster things will improve for you...also, it is simply a better and more enjoyable way to live life.

I think its something you said about Buddha that stuck with me. I had doubted that the Buddha never got angry, you pointed out the only reason he'd be angry is because there is a lack of clarity (well thats what I took from it anyway), and I kind of transferred that to my own thinking observations.


Yes, anger is caused by a lack of clarity...and anger is a lack of clarity.
neil watson, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Hey adrian, funny you should turn up here at about the same time I did.

On RT, everyone was always on about truth and honesty, and seeing things as they really are. Clarity, in other words. Its undeniable that there is no self in reality, and the fact that the brain has realised this is why we have increased clarity, because we now have an understanding that is closer to how things really are. I distrust spirituality, religion and all that crap just as much as you do, but it seems that the methods of buddhism ( which are nothing to do with spirituality or religion) are aimed at helping the brain get an improved picture of how things really are. If there is no self, no past, no future, then all there is, for each person, is what they are perceiving at each moment. ( or rather, what is being perceived, to be nitpicky I guess). The trainings improve concentration, making it easier to focus on something specific, and improve "noticing", ie improve recognition and classification of what is being perceived. So you get better and better at focusing, and better and better at identifying what is being focused on. This leads to a greater understanding of how and why things occur in your reality. Nothing spiritual in that at all, it seems pretty scientific to me.

Everyone feel free to comment on the above, I may have it totally wrong about what is going on, and would like to know.

You say you dont know where this path leads, or why you are doing it,but it seems to me to be a logical continuation of what you did at RT. An increasingly clearer understanding of reality. We always acknowledged that seeing no self didnt get rid of the sense of self, that all the shit from before was likely still there.

It is quite scary for me to think about this, I get the same thoughts as you, will I be different, will I not care about people, will anything have meaning for me? So I dont know how far I am going to take this, but I am definitely interested in looking deeper.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
neil watson:
Hey adrian, funny you should turn up here at about the same time I did.

On RT, everyone was always on about truth and honesty, and seeing things as they really are. Clarity, in other words. Its undeniable that there is no self in reality, and the fact that the brain has realised this is why we have increased clarity, because we now have an understanding that is closer to how things really are. I distrust spirituality, religion and all that crap just as much as you do, but it seems that the methods of buddhism ( which are nothing to do with spirituality or religion) are aimed at helping the brain get an improved picture of how things really are. If there is no self, no past, no future, then all there is, for each person, is what they are perceiving at each moment. ( or rather, what is being perceived, to be nitpicky I guess). The trainings improve concentration, making it easier to focus on something specific, and improve "noticing", ie improve recognition and classification of what is being perceived. So you get better and better at focusing, and better and better at identifying what is being focused on. This leads to a greater understanding of how and why things occur in your reality. Nothing spiritual in that at all, it seems pretty scientific to me.

Everyone feel free to comment on the above, I may have it totally wrong about what is going on, and would like to know.

Hey Neil...
Isnt it ironic? I spent my whole life thinking in ignorance that being "spiritual" meant having faith in something without investigation. Whereas it seems the practices teached , especially in terms of enlightenment etc, are ALL to do with investigation and focus on REALITY, pretty much the complete opposite.
Not sure, why RT was different, I guess it was the style of the way people spoke to me, appealed to my ignorance!!
That said, I wouldnt change that style, because truthfully, it appeals to alot more people and sounds like it makes alot more sense.
I would still stand by RT and LU as "musts" to get yourself through all this much quicker (whatever it is we are trying to get "through"), I would recommend anyone else reading this thread to have a look at the direct pointing forum on this site. It really does work.
.
You say you dont know where this path leads, or why you are doing it,but it seems to me to be a logical continuation of what you did at RT. An increasingly clearer understanding of reality. We always acknowledged that seeing no self didnt get rid of the sense of self, that all the shit from before was likely still there.


For me it was a fairly huge change to be honest, it seems different for everyone, but yea the sense of self is still there, just not in the same way,theres that underlying emptiness that Ive never to be able to describe to someone else, whether online or not, it neither feels like or looks like anything , its just a sort of clarity that is there alot of the time, especially in the deeper moments. But yes, this really is just a continuation of what we were doing.

I think Im getting a far better understanding now of the difference between what I thought the sense of self and what I see now.
The difference between personality/character/attributes/identity and what I thought the "I" meant is becoming clearer.
I would never use words like "true self" on RT because its too confusing, but I can see what they mean, that the word "self" in "true self" is simply a word for the collection of stuff that makes up this body. But as I said, I wouldnt use that phrase on LU etc. Too messy.


It is quite scary for me to think about this, I get the same thoughts as you, will I be different, will I not care about people, will anything have meaning for me? So I dont know how far I am going to take this, but I am definitely interested in looking deeper.

Ah yea, those were only minor thoughts, they didnt hold, those thoughts were actually stronger for me before seeing no self, than they were posting here.
Heres my advice, read this thread THOROUGHLY, well, i mean from when I started posting, and you will see all the tips and tricks End in Sight has given me.
You'll have to get over my initial arguing for the sake of arguing in my first few posts, but after that I started getting to it. And results came very quickly.

@ End in Sight, I will give this a few more days before replying properly to you, but Im pretty sure I know the tension you talk of now, FAR FAR FAR more subtle than I thought, as in, I would have barely acknowledged it as a bad feeling, but I'd prefer give it a few more days to do more proper investigation. It does seem all over alot of the body,it comes and goes , Im still not sure if its the right thing though, mainly because it doesnt feel bad per say, but not good either
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Hi End in Sight, just a quick question, I will give a proper response in another day or two I just really want to push at this and see what I can find before replying.
But my question,
I experience some tension from time to time , in the various areas you speak of, and I think one of the best experiments was the "make myself bored" experiment, and investigated to see where is the tension rising when I want to get up and do something.

My question, is the tension a signal that tuning out has occured? Is that the point? Find the tension, and you'll find when your tuning out?
The reason I ask is I got the impression from what you said earlier in this thread , that the tension happens BEFORE tuning out?

what you said...
When there is tension, there is lack of focus...when there is less tension, there is clarity. (According to Buddhism, tension is the cause of the tuning out of sense-experience, along with the symbolic thinking stuff that goes with it.)


The former makes a little more sense to me. Does the latter imply that reducing the tension will actually help increase the focus?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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The tension is a sign that you have tuned out, but there are many parts to "tuning out"...it is not a single experience...tension happens first, then other forms of tuning out (which are more likely to be thought of as "blur" at the stage you're at) happen.

When there is no tension, there will be immense clarity.

When there is less tension, it's possible that there will be more clarity, but it's also possible that there won't be...the relationship is complicated. But, when there is any tension at all, if you can see it, it will be easy to see that there is tuning out, whereas going from noticing tuning out to noticing tension is generally harder.

In general, one can divide the suffering involved in these experiences into two parts:

1) Direct pain from tension...sometimes the tension is extreme, but other times it is subtle, and so the suffering here varies.

2) The "constricted" or "blurred" feeling that comes from lack of clarity...lack of clarity may or may not feel especially negative in itself, but it is always "blurry", and that blurriness stands in the way of a profoundly different experience of being alive.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Thanks for the answer, that makes complete sense!!
and yes, alot of it has been brought out in the recent days, its sort of messy. Its like there is an improvement, yet i dont particularly feel as good overall, even though its more honest.


(I can imagine an analogy would be something like reorganizing all your folders, it has to get messy before it begins to clean up again , only guessing!!)


And yes, your answer makes so much sense, when im going through bouts of "immense clarity" , or "deep periods" as I was calling them (not sure why), there is very little tension.

As I said Ill give you a proper response again.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Hi, I know its been a while now, and I have done lots of investigation.
The main tension that arises seems to be the abdomen one, that sinking feeling from extremely mild to a more strong one. In all cases I can tell why it happened.

However, there are more subtle tensions where it seems to happen so quickly and seems to be so subtle that I can not tell what thought caused it, I can only tell it was as a result of being tuned out.

End in Sight:
You're on the right track...here's a list of things I think you should work on specifically.

1) You notice a tension in your abdomen which relates in some way to a negative mood. What other tensions do you notice that are related to negative experiences?

These are good choices of things to examine:

a) Boredom / restlessness. ...

Are there tensions involved? (The specific locations most likely to have various feelings may be something like: crown of head, forehead, throat, chest, solar plexus, abdomen, pubic region, base of spine.)



I think in all the cases, the chest , abdomen, solar plexus and to a lesser extent the throat are the areas that I feel tension when it arises.
The list you made for me does induce this tension to an extent, but what induces it alot more is moments of complete tuning out when im lost in thought without realizing it. Its only when the tension arises do I realize I was lost in thought.
Sometimes the tension arises for little to no reason, I can genuinely not figure out what caused it, usually thats the more subtle tension though.
Here is generally what will happen, I will be attempting to be going by sense experience, I will forget , get lost in thought, Ill feel fine and wont notice this , until suddenly a minor tension arises and the final thought that caused it is usually something negative. I treat this like a signal, a way of telling me that I was lost in thought.
Depending on the intensity of the tension, it can pass very quickly and I get back to sense experience, or it holds a little longer and the thought recurs a few times, each time , less effective, until it fades.
Generally a deep breath can help relieve the tension, not fully, but if its a subtle weak one this tends to work.

2) How often are there split-second moments of tuning out experience? Specifically, are you tuning it out at all in this case:


It seems that most of the day I am tuning out. A conscious effort to stay tuned in is proving to be more difficult than i thought. I will have to work on it though.




If you are tuning it out, look harder to see where your attention is moving in those split-second moment.

3) What happens during "tuned out" moments can be analyzed into many constituent parts...they are not simple experiences. What can you see happening so far? (You will likely be looking at this one for awhile, as the subtlety is fairly high, so keep looking for more detail even if you don't see how there could be any more.)


Ill try my best, basically it seems that what I described above is what happens during the moments of tuning out -> tension -> tuning back in again.
My attention is simply wandering to thought and not sense experience. Sometimes it is more difficult to make the tension go away. Even when I dont know the cause of it.



For the purpose of investigating 3) you may be better off noticing how experience shifts from the senses to the feeling and back, fully observing the movement back and forth in as much detail as possible. (What you're doing can be useful for reducing or controlling the tension...it can be quite effective in that context.)


Yes, straight after feeling the tension , I notice this, I think ill have to keep working on it though.
It seems to shift from whatever experience I want to focus on, (lets say the feeling of me sitting down, back to the abdomen(tension) back to me sitting down etc)




Meditation 2: Sit in a comfortable position with eyes closed, pay attention to your breath in whatever way suits you, don't follow any trains of thought, and see if you can figure out how to be simultaneously extremely relaxed and extremely alert. (These are completely compatible.) If you can achieve a moderate amount of relaxation and alertness, don't settle there...go for more. (One hint is that, to do this, you will have to simultaneously feel good in a physical way, and reduce the amount that you tune out your experience.)


Ok I think Im fairly ok at the second one. Sometimes I might get to that stage in 10 mins, sometimes 20 mins, but if Im tired I wont get there at all.
When Im in that state I know exactly when Im there, its quite an obvious, its a complete silence/emptiness , and a heightened awareness.
I think doing this form of meditation for longer and more often may help me integrate this into my regular day. Because when Im that alert I fully know when the tuning out is happening, and thats without any tension at all.

That is a significant amount of direction, so post your observations after you've experimented with these things. Give it a few days, at least.



Thanks for all the help, Im sure this thread cant go on forever, but maybe if you have any advice overall for me on where I should take this.
Im guessing the formal meditation may be important just to help improving my focus, because Im finding myself lost in thought alot, even if its not making me feel bad or anything.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Just want to say thanks,
By doing the techniques here, but also addressing some stuff that needed to be addressed, i.e. using honesty to face any bit of suffering left, and just experience the sense of it, and tackling the belief or idea that caused it, I think Ive really hit new ground.

It was when I started doing formal meditation I began to make real progress, reason being I sort of bumped up my ability to focus. The past few days have definitely been a new "high" and another opening of sorts, just a relaxing sense of being, but no one experiencing if you get me, just a general feeling of life/existence being great.

I think another big thing was making sure I wasnt imagining myself being further on, just sticking with the practice and allowing the rest happen by itself. Imagining it only holds you back.

This may wear off, but I know where Im at now.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Glad things are working out for you!

I meant to write a bit about practice suggestions, but forgot. emoticon Hopefully you won't mind if I get around to that in a day or two or so.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Hey thanks, no rush, Ill "play around" with this for a few days anyway and see how it feels, see does it hold, Ill keep up what I was doing. It definitely feels like the biggest jump Ive had since seeing no self. It was more than just another deepening phase.
Anyway, talk to you in a few days.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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wylo de c:
Hey thanks, no rush, Ill "play around" with this for a few days anyway and see how it feels, see does it hold, Ill keep up what I was doing. It definitely feels like the biggest jump Ive had since seeing no self. It was more than just another deepening phase.
Anyway, talk to you in a few days.


could you describe the jump a bit more? when'd it happen? how was it like? immediate shift or just gradual deepening from before? etc
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
wylo de c:
Hey thanks, no rush, Ill "play around" with this for a few days anyway and see how it feels, see does it hold, Ill keep up what I was doing. It definitely feels like the biggest jump Ive had since seeing no self. It was more than just another deepening phase.
Anyway, talk to you in a few days.


could you describe the jump a bit more? when'd it happen? how was it like? immediate shift or just gradual deepening from before? etc


since the start of this thread ,and since I began to make a conscious effort to try and improve this I have to say there was gradual and steady improvements. However there was no overall change, more just a reduction in small bouts of suffering, and a maintaining of the "deep" periods for a longer time.

However the past week and half/2 weeks, I began touching on something more, just small glimpses, at first it only really happened after strange times (mainly after alot of physical excersise, and once the next day after a night out drinking with friends).
There was still a confusion and desire to push for something though, despite the fact that I was making progress.

This latest thing however was fairly immediate, it feels that those previous glimpses were just that , in this is actually it.

Basically what happened was 3 nights ago before going to bed I felt FAR more "empty vesselish" than usual, a real nobodys home feeling, not that it felt great or anything, just strange. The next morning I was back to regular enough deepness. But later that day is when the proper change happened.
Just walking down the street on lunch from my work. I felt a very strong sense of peace and emptiness. It wasnt absolutely instant, the whole thing properly grew over that few hours.
As you know its impossible to describe the clarity bit in words, but Ill describe the physical bits and the thought bits.

-a sort of silent calm warmth in the body
-strong sense of being out of control
-empty mind, and that emptiness overpowering any residual fear or suffering that may arise (Ive yet to run into testing situations tbh)
-real sense of joy/mild bliss ,Ive had plenty of bliss bouts since seeing no self, but they were more intense, more physical and less impressive, whereas this one is more like a chilled calm, realistic physical and mental "bliss"
-sense of great satisfaction that this may stay like this the rest of my life (naive I know)
- a lack of need to address my points of trouble in life right now (yet ironically an underlying confidence that they will be addressed much easier now due to further quelled fear)
- a trust in the bodys actions with no controller (silly example: crossing the road with cars driving by, despite there being no control by me, there is still a confidence and caution that it is being done carefully)
-a sense that everything is automatic, people, cars, everything. Not over intense or anything, but just when I look at it.
- the ability to concentrate on senses is much better now, actually, it is almost default.

-no improvement in my concentration on my conventional work though, im doing it alright, but it feels sort of in the way right now, so there is a sense I need to push myself to motivate myself do it.

Im hoping this stays, but Im also aware that the more I hope , and the less practice I actually do, the more likely it is to fade away.
This is day 3 anyway and its still here. The overwhelmingness of it as faded nearly already, but the fundamentals of it are still there.

I must read Danial Ingrams book so as to get up on my terminlogy, Im sure it could be described alot better if I knew what specific words to use.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Oops, spoke too soon, it has retracted quite a bit from last night onwards, not to say Im in some sort of pit of depression, but just definitely not where I was in terms of clarity and feeling fantastic as I was the last few days. Ill stick with it anyway, no reason it shouldnt happen again.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Quick interim note...you may want to keep in mind that, while MCTB describes all kinds of useful stuff, and may describe what you previously attained through the direct pointing method (though obviously it doesn't discuss that method), it does not describe a path that brings an end to suffering, nor does it claim to.

The attainments in MCTB may be on the way to the end of suffering, but eventually (if that's what you're interested in) you'll have to go beyond MCTB.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

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Thanks,
Well I actually havent read it yet, I probably should, even if it means to continue posting elsewhere in this forum, and try and get a better understanding of where people are at. Ive read some of the FAQs and some of the progresses of insight etc though.

Well it seems things got far worse, Its backwards im going not forwards, I had a strange sort of anxiety/panic attack the other night, I was about to tell a story to relations I hadnt seen in a while , but got interrupted, that was fine there was another quick conversation but in the mean time something clicked in the head, a bit of panic and out of control fear that the pressure was gonna be somehow on me in a minute or two. I had to leave the room and sit in the bathroom for a bit to let it pass, I even went a bit pale I think.

This has never happened in my life, it was horrible. Talk about going from high to low in a few days.
I didnt do any practice since then, was just feeling too gloomy, I knew there was no clarity , I didnt really care, not that I was overly depressed or anything, I was actually quite chilled out, but sort of gave up on trying, I guess due to a lack of confidence in it.

Heres the thing though, I actually said to myself Im gonna see can I just give it a rest for a day, just this whole thing, as if Id NEVER seen no self, but it doesnt go away, even today, theres that emptiness and no self, that nothingness. I cant just get away from it, ever. it DOESNT mean necessarily that I am feeling great now, but its still there, that sort of empty vessel thing.
I can see the complete contradictory nature of saying that , and yes still experiencing attachment to whatever negativity there is, but thats just how it is, Im sure you understand.

So all I can do is finish off whatever is needed to finish this off. Ive no choice, because it feels somewhat limbo-ish at the moment.

Ultimately I just want to end suffering. I dont care about insights, maps, enlightenment, whatever, I just want to be at a point where I know Im done with all this , even if it means some sort of thing where you truly accept suffering, I dont care, I just want it done, in a good way.

Just wondering, where do you honestly think Im at? Based on what Ive written in the past few weeks and then this new turn the past day or 2?
Im not looking for any sort of validation or anything , I really dont give a crap, I just want a second opinion, because Im new to this stuff.
Im talking a lifetime of presumption and not even having heard of insights or enlightenment etc, and then 2 weeks later a complete turn around!

Regarding direct pointing, the issue with direct pointing is that its somewhat new nature (well the current movement of it anyway, im sure its probably part of some other school of thought or something), and seeing as I was one of the earlier people to have gone through the process Ive no one to actually turn to.

What do you make of what happened me a few days ago, that big jump I described above? Do you think its truly something that can be maintained and kept on a permanent basis, something I should be targetting? Or do you think its just some sort of experience that people go through? If I was to truly truly truly pick a "done" moment, as in, someone asking me "are you the happiest you could possibly be?" , Id probably say it was then.

I know there's alot of confusion in that post , but I guess Im just trying to put myself somewhere , maybe its the analytic mind playing out.

That panic thing really threw me off, and I wont be surprised if you cant relate to it. My only fear is that that somehow starts spreading itself into different situations.

One thing that I do know is true, throughout all this, even throughout more gloomy times where I know theres less clarity. The thing I know is, that the more you reality as it is, without the interference of thought, the happier you can be.
But Ironically i dont know about trying to ignore beliefs and engage with reality all the time. Do you not see value in trying to address them, just nip in the bud so to speak?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Wylo,

Just wanted to say that this pattern has happened a lot to me over the past year. Periods of clarity, enjoyment of life, openness, etc., followed rather quickly by periods of despair, immense anxiety, unhappiness, wanting it (the path) to end so I can not suffer already, etc. Back & forth. Mostly only consolation during the bad times has been that they, too, are impermanent, and that they will fade, and that as I progress I get closer to the goal (less suffering overall in a broad sense/baseline kind of way).

I've found that there seem to be roughly four kinds of phases I'll be in, and that different things will work better depending on what phase I'm in. Sometimes it's a matter of kind of idly looking at experience, looking at things here or there, not really breaking new ground (phase 1). Sometimes it's like everything is going amazingly, I can generate pleasure in the body at will, anything I seem to investigate gives way to investigation easily and in a rewarding fashion (phase 2). Sometimes it's like everything is going horribly, there is no pleasure, just tensions in my body that cannot be penetrated, and any effort I make seems to only make things worse (phase 3). And, sometimes everything is just calm and relaxed, it doesn't feel like there's anything to do in particular, but it's enjoyable to just exist and look around (phase 4).

phase 2 tends to be followed by phase 3 tends to be followed by phase 4, and phase 4 tends to segue into phase 1 again as new things to find out are being looked at. but emotional triggers can also cause different phases[1] (more like 'states of mind') and might help to do things differently based on that, too.

phase 1 doesn't seem much of an issue - just a matter of investigating what's interesting. phase 2 is great, but there is a tendency to be over-confident: i might have insights which turn out later to be false, but at the time seem correct, and clinging to those insights can cause trouble in phase 3. i find the best is to take a conservative approach here, to use all the energy available due to its nature in order to investigate things simply and make progress at a deep level (instead of just wasting it riding on the feel-good waves). in phase 3, i find that expending effort to figure out new things just doesn't work. the thing to do here, it seems, is to slowly starve off the bad momentum. repeat phrases like "stop trying to get joy out of anything" - which sounds sad, but the interpretation i'm going for is to no longer attempt to 'get' anything out of life, to no longer grasp at pleasant things or try to get away from the unpleasant things, to just sit with them and let them fade from lack of fuel. and phase 4 is where lots of fun can be had trying to look at things in a panoramic fashion or playing around with ways to incline the mind, as it seems more malleable and less likely to 'overshoot' like in phase 2.

so, depending on where you are, you'll want to do things differently.. in this case, stop trying to get away from anything, but also don't try to grasp out and 'do' anything.. just kind of let it all pass through you, as it will on its own, eventually. what might work, if you're careful, is to do a very simple practice to steady yourself, like following the breath, and nothing more.. not letting it get worse, but not in a forceful 'stop paying attention NOW' way, more like a 'place attention elsewhere, gently'.

does that help any?

[1] note: this is kind of a rough sketch of the Progress of Insight (found in MCTB ), but I'm not necessarily drawing parallels here (in terms of being at particular points on that exact progrress) - just that I noticed roughly 4 'states of mind' i could be in, and that doing things differently in each one seemed to help.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Wylo,

Just wanted to say that this pattern has happened a lot to me over the past year. Periods of clarity, enjoyment of life, openness, etc., followed rather quickly by periods of despair, immense anxiety, unhappiness, wanting it (the path) to end so I can not suffer already, etc. Back & forth. Mostly only consolation during the bad times has been that they, too, are impermanent, and that they will fade, and that as I progress I get closer to the goal (less suffering overall in a broad sense/baseline kind of way).

Im glad its improving for you overall, slow and steady I guess.

I've found that there seem to be roughly four kinds of phases I'll be in, and that different things will work better depending on what phase I'm in. Sometimes it's a matter of kind of idly looking at experience, looking at things here or there, not really breaking new ground (phase 1). Sometimes it's like everything is going amazingly, I can generate pleasure in the body at will, anything I seem to investigate gives way to investigation easily and in a rewarding fashion (phase 2). Sometimes it's like everything is going horribly, there is no pleasure, just tensions in my body that cannot be penetrated, and any effort I make seems to only make things worse (phase 3). And, sometimes everything is just calm and relaxed, it doesn't feel like there's anything to do in particular, but it's enjoyable to just exist and look around (phase 4).

Thanks , this is an interesting way of putting it, and I think itll help alot knowing that these types of phases come and go, because they do. Its nice to see someone else write about them.
When I started posting in this thread, I guess I had still surpressed some of the more negative phases, not to mention I was probably in a phase 4 when I was posting initially. Things changed after that. And things really began to change when I took a much bigger dive into it.
But you are right, they all come and go, and reading about that helps.


phase 2 tends to be followed by phase 3 tends to be followed by phase 4, and phase 4 tends to segue into phase 1 again as new things to find out are being looked at. but emotional triggers can also cause different phases[1] (more like 'states of mind') and might help to do things differently based on that, too.

phase 1 doesn't seem much of an issue - just a matter of investigating what's interesting. phase 2 is great, but there is a tendency to be over-confident: i might have insights which turn out later to be false, but at the time seem correct, and clinging to those insights can cause trouble in phase 3. i find the best is to take a conservative approach here, to use all the energy available due to its nature in order to investigate things simply and make progress at a deep level (instead of just wasting it riding on the feel-good waves). in phase 3, i find that expending effort to figure out new things just doesn't work. the thing to do here, it seems, is to slowly starve off the bad momentum. repeat phrases like "stop trying to get joy out of anything" - which sounds sad, but the interpretation i'm going for is to no longer attempt to 'get' anything out of life, to no longer grasp at pleasant things or try to get away from the unpleasant things, to just sit with them and let them fade from lack of fuel. and phase 4 is where lots of fun can be had trying to look at things in a panoramic fashion or playing around with ways to incline the mind, as it seems more malleable and less likely to 'overshoot' like in phase 2.

You have down to a Tee!! For me, when I ran into a phase 2 I tend to ride the waves, despite how much I promise to myself Ill keep working at it.
Following that my latest gloom, which is pretty much gone now, came as a surprise, luckily I didnt feed it too much. But I nearly did for a while.

so, depending on where you are, you'll want to do things differently.. in this case, stop trying to get away from anything, but also don't try to grasp out and 'do' anything.. just kind of let it all pass through you, as it will on its own, eventually. what might work, if you're careful, is to do a very simple practice to steady yourself, like following the breath, and nothing more.. not letting it get worse, but not in a forceful 'stop paying attention NOW' way, more like a 'place attention elsewhere, gently'.

does that help any?


Yea this stuff helps , thanks alot, of course it doesnt directly relate to my experience, but its nice to see something that draws parallels and then I can take from it what I can.

[
1] note: this is kind of a rough sketch of the Progress of Insight (found in MCTB ), but I'm not necessarily drawing parallels here (in terms of being at particular points on that exact progrress) - just that I noticed roughly 4 'states of mind' i could be in, and that doing things differently in each one seemed to help.

My next mission is to read that asap, Ive flicked through it, it seems like an easy nice read so I must get it done, just to tame the curiosity if anything.

@End in Sight, thanks for the reply, Ill reply properly tomorrow.

Overall I really appreciate the help, its a bit of a roller coaster ride this thing, and it definitely aint for the faint hearted. Ive no idea how people go through something like the Dark Night.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Here is an overview of the whole method of practice (Pali Buddhism 101), as I understand it and practice it. There are other traditions that do things differently, so this is not the only way to go about things...but it works really, really well.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view.


Summary: observe that there is suffering, see the cause, see that it can come to an end to varying degrees as you practice, keep practicing. (Four Noble Truths.)

We examined some of these issues already (tension, unclarity).

"And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve.


Summary: Don't dwell on negativity, don't allow yourself to be caught up in dislike or anger or put yourself in situations that generate it, don't chase your desires, try to live your moment-to-moment life in a peaceful way, try to have good-will and positive regard for others. (Not following this advice generates more tension / unclarity.)

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech.


Summary: Don't harm others through your words, don't bicker with others, don't provoke others or act like an asshole, don't waste time on inane subjects. (Same as above...and it makes you a better person.)

"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action.


Summary: Don't live in a way that causes confrontation, provokes others, inflames your greed or hatred, hurts others, etc. (Same as above.)

"And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood.


Summary: For monks, it means being a monk. For laypeople, it means not dealing drugs or selling guns or etc. For a layperson intent on practice, it should be interpreted to mean that apart from avoiding drug dealing (etc.), arrange your life in a skillful way that allows you to put the path into practice to the extent that you are committed to it. (A monk has his whole life arranged that way, you should have it arranged that way to a degree that matches your commitment.)

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.


Summary: See what states of mind are beneficial, see what states of mind are unbeneficial, see what the causes are, work to promote the beneficial ones and abandon the unbeneficial ones. (Beneficial in terms of any of the aspects of the path enumerated here.)

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness.


Summary: Remain alert and attentive at all times, pay attention to your bodily experience, don't zone out, don't daydream, work to make yourself aware of what your experience is and what its components are at all times, cultivate this awareness until it becomes something that happens by default.

"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."


Summary: Meditate. Work on remaining extremely alert and extremely relaxed at the same time. The sign of doing this successfully is that there will be less tension and less unclarity to the extent that you do it correctly. (You can go very far with this, don't have a preconception of what the limits of alertness and relaxation are.)

The points about lifestyle and morality are extremely significant, even though many people will have a tendency to ignore them or dismiss them. Don't. Take them very seriously.

Right effort and right resolve seem to me to be the foundation for the entire thing; it's worth spending time revisiting them in your thoughts to figure out how they apply to whatever is happening for you in life.

Right view can be deepened more than you might expect. Reflecting on the first two parts (suffering and its cause, as you discern it in your experience) and understanding them more clearly as your practice evolves is important.

It is important to see all of these points as practical things rather than rules you have to adhere to. You will have lots of lapses, you won't follow them at all times...but, you make progress not by following them religiously, but by getting incrementally better at following them, so accept that you are not perfect, and do your best.

Also, keep in mind that the path is meant to be practiced 24/7...many of its aspects (especially: right mindfulness, right resolve, right effort) are relevant at every moment.

The factors of enlightenment are:

Mindfulness
Investigation
Effort / energy
Happiness
Tranquility
Concentration
Equanimity

You should work to cultivate them in whatever balance helps you with the rest of the path. (The implication is, see to being a happy, zestful, attentive, calm person as best you can.)

wylo de c:
]Just wondering, where do you honestly think Im at?


I would guess that what you attained through direct pointing is stream entry in MCTB, or is something very much like stream entry in MCTB but maybe not the exact same thing.

If you want to investigate further, we would need to figure out what that attainment was before talking about anything else, so you should read MCTB and see if the chapters on the progress of insight make sense to you, see if they appear to cycle around in your experience, see if you can experience cessation at the end of a cycle, etc. You don't have to see whether your attainment happened in context of the progress of insight, just whether you can see those stages happening now.

The best way to understand the stages is not just in terms of how you feel and how your mind is functioning, but in terms of the way experiences "flicker" (= in terms of the way the senses keep getting tuned out). See if you can find some correlations between different patterns of tuning out and different modes of experience.

You might want to post about it (maybe start a separate practice thread to discuss whatever observations you make).
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:
Here is an overview of the whole method of practice (Pali Buddhism 101), as I understand it and practice it. There are other traditions that do things differently, so this is not the only way to go about things...but it works really, really well.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood................................................................. you do it correctly. (You can go very far with this, don't have a preconception of what the limits of alertness and relaxation are.)


Thanks for all these, Ive read them carefully and can see the benefit, not to mention there is far more clarity in behaviour like this.

The points about lifestyle and morality are extremely significant, even though many people will have a tendency to ignore them or dismiss them. Don't. Take them very seriously.


Admittedly , in the past I would have probably rejected them to some degree, and wrote them off as "general good advice", I guess I would have underestimated the ability to add peace to the mind.

Right effort and right resolve seem to me to be the foundation for the entire thing; it's worth spending time revisiting them in your thoughts to figure out how they apply to whatever is happening for you in life.


Right view can be deepened more than you might expect. Reflecting on the first two parts (suffering and its cause, as you discern it in your experience) and understanding them more clearly as your practice evolves is important.


Ok, this is probably along the lines of what I was doing, and why progress was being made. I guess the reason I relapsed so badly was because I still wasnt understanding some of the causes.
Im thinking for right view to work personally for me, it is important I address the suffering first, this is why writing it down helped for me. I couldnt seem to concentrate all day, I had reccurring problems in the mind dealing with this "panic" incident, and fearing it would happen again, all it took was for me to sit down and write down everything about it and go through the emotions regarding, and the thought stopped bouncing so strongly, this allowed me to get back to proper practice, i.e. simply finding tension and tuning out experiences. So I really dont think there is harm in targetting specific things that are holding you back and writing about them.


It is important to see all of these points as practical things rather than rules you have to adhere to. You will have lots of lapses, you won't follow them at all times...but, you make progress not by following them religiously, but by getting incrementally better at following them, so accept that you are not perfect, and do your best.


Another issue I need to address really, this desire for quick results. I tricked myself because I got such quick results initially but Ill be more patient and chilled about it now. And just try and improve.


Just wondering, where do you honestly think Im at?

I would guess that what you attained through direct pointing is stream entry in MCTB, or is something very much like stream entry in MCTB but maybe not the exact same thing.

If you want to investigate further, we would need to figure out what that attainment was before talking about anything else, so you should read MCTB and see if the chapters on the progress of insight make sense to you, see if they appear to cycle around in your experience, see if you can experience cessation at the end of a cycle, etc. You don't have to see whether your attainment happened in context of the progress of insight, just whether you can see those stages happening now.


Yes first thing Im gonna do is read the book, just for curiosity, for terminology and more understanding, and so I can start a proper practice log etc.

The best way to understand the stages is not just in terms of how you feel and how your mind is functioning, but in terms of the way experiences "flicker" (= in terms of the way the senses keep getting tuned out). See if you can find some correlations between different patterns of tuning out and different modes of experience.


This makes sense

You might want to post about it (maybe start a separate practice thread to discuss whatever observations you make).



Gonna get on it soon when, ive finished MCTB.

Overall Ive perked up and ready to start again, more experienced now, and more prepared for this kind of thing. Ive even found the motivation today has sored to concentrate on the senses , and observe any tensions.
I wouldnt be surprised if I started hitting peaks again not long away, difference is , Im going to treat them as purely another phase in the overall learning process.

Cheers for all the help, lots of practices and notes and other information to take from this thread.


For anyone that has been through the direct pointing process and is running into any trouble or just wants to push it further, Id highly recommend reading this thread.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
By the way, Im still confused as to what the idea of all this, not that im not trying to do it, but just wondering, what is the benefit of revealing these very subtle points of suffering? Can they really be tackled down to nothing? Is that what you're getting at?


You talk about being more deep or less deep, as in phases. Another hint is that eventually that will no longer happen[1]. It'll just be 'maximally deep'. This serves as potential practice advice... look for variations in 'deepness' - those, too, indicate suffering of some sort - either a relative increase in suffering (less deep) or a relative decrease in suffering (more deep). Also part of what you call 'deepness' might also be suffering of a subtle sort, so don't get too attached... though it sounds like the right direction ('genuine emptiness').

[1] Well, I hear there is constant deepening.. but I think it's of a different nature than what you're talking about (in terms of less deep/more deep constantly fluctuating).
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
wylo de c:
By the way, Im still confused as to what the idea of all this, not that im not trying to do it, but just wondering, what is the benefit of revealing these very subtle points of suffering? Can they really be tackled down to nothing? Is that what you're getting at?


You talk about being more deep or less deep, as in phases. Another hint is that eventually that will no longer happen[1]. It'll just be 'maximally deep'. This serves as potential practice advice... look for variations in 'deepness' - those, too, indicate suffering of some sort - either a relative increase in suffering (less deep) or a relative decrease in suffering (more deep). Also part of what you call 'deepness' might also be suffering of a subtle sort, so don't get too attached... though it sounds like the right direction ('genuine emptiness').

[1] Well, I hear there is constant deepening.. but I think it's of a different nature than what you're talking about (in terms of less deep/more deep constantly fluctuating).

Well personally, there is a constant "maturing" for want of a better word , part of that was realizing the fluctuations and being ok with the fluctuations, but I guess now that it has been pointed out to me, maybe ive been simply overshadowing and ignoring the "negatives" and as a result , was not getting the most out of this.

Part of understanding the fluctuations was that I can actually feel like im in quite a good mood even when not deep, but maybe that will change now that Im digging through even further.

Heres a blog I wrote about a month ago with regard to "deep vs not deep"... Bare in mind, its very generalized, and displayed as one or the other, just for ease of writing, but really its varied more than that...http://theselfisfalse.blogspot.com/2011/10/2-states-fuzzy-and-deep.html
Maybe from reading my descriptions you'll be able to give me a better indication of where Im at.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
Well personally, there is a constant "maturing" for want of a better word , part of that was realizing the fluctuations and being ok with the fluctuations, but I guess now that it has been pointed out to me, maybe ive been simply overshadowing and ignoring the "negatives" and as a result , was not getting the most out of this.

better to be OK with them than to react to them. even better for them to not arise at all, than to be OK with them. being OK with them is a prerequisite for their cessation, though, so it's not a bad thing at all. but the near enemy of that is being complacent with them - not doing anything about them.

wylo de c:
Heres a blog I wrote about a month ago with regard to "deep vs not deep"... Bare in mind, its very generalized, and displayed as one or the other, just for ease of writing, but really its varied more than that...http://theselfisfalse.blogspot.com/2011/10/2-states-fuzzy-and-deep.html
Maybe from reading my descriptions you'll be able to give me a better indication of where Im at.

Nice... sounds like some of the things End in Sight wanted you to look at.

What do you think of this: all the things in the 'fuzzy' category are of the same nature as the 'belief in a self' that went away when you realized no-self (or whatever shifted when you had your shift). it's just more of the same type of thing. you've dented the thing at one level, but the fact that they still arise means that you haven't rooted it out at its core. The fact that you recognize them as distinct from deepness is a good step, though.

And, a few of the things in deep category are also of the same nature; that is to say, I won't consider myself done until they no longer arise. i will point out what i think these are.
wylo de c:
- A very limited, but still present, distinction between the body and the rest of the world.
feeling of distinction between body + rest of the world is the same-old... and a feeling of unity is also just distinction but under another form.
wylo de c:
- Nearly fearless, inhibiting activity in the brain very limited.
any bit of fear or inhibiting activity in the brain is the same-old
wylo de c:
- A sense that you are actually brushing this off other people around you (complete nonsense really, just a classic example of ignorance with regards to what you think is going on in someone elses head.)
the emotional-intuitive feeling of affecting others by your mere presence is the same-old
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts

better to be OK with them than to react to them. even better for them to not arise at all, than to be OK with them. being OK with them is a prerequisite for their cessation, though, so it's not a bad thing at all. but the near enemy of that is being complacent with them - not doing anything about them.

Thanks for the tip, I think its the bit in bold is where I was heading, reason being, I thought accepting it (and as a result, complacency) was part and parcel of this thing.


What do you think of this: all the things in the 'fuzzy' category are of the same nature as the 'belief in a self' that went away when you realized no-self (or whatever shifted when you had your shift). it's just more of the same type of thing. you've dented the thing at one level, but the fact that they still arise means that you haven't rooted it out at its core. The fact that you recognize them as distinct from deepness is a good step, though.

I agree with you regarding the fuzzy category being the same as before, and yes , it is a result of a belief in self, BUT , what I probably should have included in that overall list is the improvements to my life fuzzy or not, if you get me. But i see what you're saying yes.

feeling of distinction between body + rest of the world is the same-old... and a feeling of unity is also just distinction but under another form.

i have to say , it is a VERY limited feeling when deep, lack of centralness would be the main bit.

any bit of fear or inhibiting activity in the brain is the same-old
I agree with you here alright , I cant see how you could get past some inhibitions for some things, and not get past them for all other pointless fears too, other than the fear of death. This is definitely one thing I would love to absolutely conquer.

the emotional-intuitive feeling of affecting others by your mere presence is the same-old
tbh, that one went away very quickly, neither the feeling nor the thought arise anymore that I could somehow be brushing this off someone else, its just complete ignorance.

Thanks for the help, my only reservation as I pointed out in my last post is the "setting yourself up for a fall" situation. If you can genuinely say you were where I was , and have gotten much much further i WILL believe you. Im not here to defend the ego, but that doesnt mean Im not going to be honest about my reservations if you get me.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
any bit of fear or inhibiting activity in the brain is the same-old
I agree with you here alright , I cant see how you could get past some inhibitions for some things, and not get past them for all other pointless fears too, other than the fear of death. This is definitely one thing I would love to absolutely conquer.
the thing that fears death is just that sense of 'self'... without it, there is nothing to fear death (let alone anything).

wylo de c:
Thanks for the help, my only reservation as I pointed out in my last post is the "setting yourself up for a fall" situation. If you can genuinely say you were where I was , and have gotten much much further i WILL believe you. Im not here to defend the ego, but that doesnt mean Im not going to be honest about my reservations if you get me.


i'm not sure where you are as compared to me. i'm not very satisfied with where i'm at right now.

about setting up for the fall, that is quite a common pitfall. and i certainly have suffered from it. simply put, it is of no use to anybody to be averse to feeling bad or feeling something that you recognize as suffering. recognizing suffering, at its purest form, should be quite a source of joy, as it means that something was happening that was clouding your experience, now you recognize it as such, and when it fades your experience will be even clearer. easier said than done, i know...

that being said, i have had a glimpse of the end-state.. and i do seem to be making progress towards it. and i have interacted with (both online + in person) people who are where i want to be and, well, they seem like they're doing quite well, hehe.. it's just a matter of getting it done. i certainly can't, with sincerity + integrity, not complete this path i started. so even if i feel crestfallen, it's just another thing to see through and then get on with it.

wylo de c:
Yes I know suffering is quite real, but Im wondering how possible it is to destroy every possible tiny feeling.

think of it this way... it's not that feelings keep coming up, and you destroy them, and if another happens to come up you destroy it too, etc. etc. that would take forever. rather, you learn what causes feelings to come up, and stop that process. you don't have to deal with every little thing.. you just have to understand it well enough to figure out how to stop it.

you don't 'gain' anything from this, as suffering is always only added onto whatever is already happening. you just stop a process that is currently happening, obscuring the clarity of this moment. the clarity is already there.. just shrouded.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
the thing that fears death is just that sense of 'self'... without it, there is nothing to fear death (let alone anything).
Im sorry , but this is just something I remain ultimately skeptical about, fear for your life is a natural instinct to want to survive. It has nothing to do with the sense of self. I really doubt the most enlightened person on Earth wouldnt jump out of the way of an on coming car. You may be able to come up with a insightful response to that, but no matter what is said, if he jumps out of the way its because he does not want to die.





that being said, i have had a glimpse of the end-state.. and i do seem to be making progress towards it. and i have interacted with (both online + in person) people who are where i want to be and, well, they seem like they're doing quite well, hehe.. it's just a matter of getting it done. i certainly can't, with sincerity + integrity, not complete this path i started. so even if i feel crestfallen, it's just another thing to see through and then get on with it.

And im ust wondering how happy/content were you after you saw no self? im still at odds as to why some people are so blown away by it (me) and others a barely noticeable small step.


think of it this way... it's not that feelings keep coming up, and you destroy them, and if another happens to come up you destroy it too, etc. etc. that would take forever. rather, you learn what causes feelings to come up, and stop that process. you don't have to deal with every little thing.. you just have to understand it well enough to figure out how to stop it.

Cool, yea I think id been doing this, just not as closely and accurately as I have been since this thread.

you don't 'gain' anything from this, as suffering is always only added onto whatever is already happening. you just stop a process that is currently happening, obscuring the clarity of this moment. the clarity is already there.. just shrouded.

yep I agree there.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
Im sorry , but this is just something I remain ultimately skeptical about, fear for your life is a natural instinct to want to survive. It has nothing to do with the sense of self. I really doubt the most enlightened person on Earth wouldnt jump out of the way of an on coming car. You may be able to come up with a insightful response to that, but no matter what is said, if he jumps out of the way its because he does not want to die.
I agree with the last sentence. but the recognition of not wanting to die does not require an emotional fear. part of the pull of emotions is that the way the present themselves (due to our biological past) makes them seem totally vital - as in, i need to be afraid of this car coming towards me in order to get out of the way. yet, such high-pressure situations where fear presents are precisely where a clear head is most necessary... (for example, if you are really terrified when looking at that car, you might lock up and get run over).

as EndInSight said, no faith (as in you believing what i have to say without any other evidence) is required, so see where your investigations take you. but you also shouldn't believe that fear is something vital, cause that might distort your investigation - do you see how? you shouldn't believe it is vital, but you shouldn't believe it isn't vital, either - just don't believe in either direction.

wylo de c:
And im ust wondering how happy/content were you after you saw no self? im still at odds as to why some people are so blown away by it (me) and others a barely noticeable small step.
hehe it was totally awesome. i felt like i "leveled up", only in real life. and i really enjoyed the clarity and ease of being. but within a few days pretty annoying bouts of suffering started happening again, and cause of the way i've practiced since then i still got quite a lot of suffering going on.

note that what you call 'seeing no self' and what i call 'seeing no self' and what others call 'seeing no self' might point to different realizations, which would help explain why some people notice it more than others.
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Andrew Jones, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 336 Join Date: 5/23/11 Recent Posts
I'm encouraged to find this article on your site;

http://basiscrunch.com/?p=355

The method of cleaning up is what though? How do you determine what clean is? Where is the resource that provides the moral compass?

'no self' means change is possible. It is a snake you don't want to get the wrong end of, or you may end up entirely 'self important' with a knot that will refuse all attempts to undo it.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Andrew Jones:
I'm encouraged to find this article on your site;

http://basiscrunch.com/?p=355

The method of cleaning up is what though? How do you determine what clean is? Where is the resource that provides the moral compass?

'no self' means change is possible. It is a snake you don't want to get the wrong end of, or you may end up entirely 'self important' with a knot that will refuse all attempts to undo it.


I can see how that would happen, I guess there is alot of us though, and we all try and keep each other in check and help each other.
Regarding the compass, I suppose we have no moral compass.as such, what the various forums that are listed on the site do is offer after care, there are also people that have seen no self for quite some time, longer than any of us, and they offer advice too.

Not to mention , if i learn something here, which Im thinking I will, I will make sure to include it in the application and investigation section.

Really, the aim of the site is bring this concept to the people that were like myself, i.e. no interest in anything spiritual per say.
But you're warning is duly noted.
wylo de c, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
End in Sight:


Have you considered that eliminating the belief in a 'self' or the misperception of some phenomenon as a self is only the first step (and quite possibly a minor one) towards realizing what the Buddha was talking about?


Ive considered it yes, ive weighed it all up yes, and I am open to anything.
Fundamental honesty (well doing your best anyway) allows you to be open to anything. Admittedly a certain arrogance overcame me in that duel with Doly because I only saw "the way that worked", and to be honest, it still seems to be a very clear method. Im just not going to shout at people anymore.

But after reading about him and his experience I think this shift is pretty much the same thing.
What people fail to see is that every brain is different, every interpretation is different, each human seems to "react" differently to the shift of perception. Each person talks about it differently.

And as a result , you have a whole lot of people fighting and arguing about different things, myself, doly, included.
I reckon when the Buddha saw the truth he went through his own deepening process as well. But im only basing that reckoning on guess work. He is only one of 1000s if not millions. Lets not forget he was also chasing something that he knew could happen. He wasnt the first, nor the last.

I used to think that the shift had to be an instant one, why? Because it was for me, ignorance really. Then I saw some others were slow burners, it took them a while to get really deep into it.

Nothing can "undo" the shift that happened in April, I can put it down the minute it happened, it then took an evening of confusion trying to figure out what was going, then a fairly sleepless night and then waking definitely knowing that that was it.

Some unraveling afterwards, there still is some. But to answer your question, I have considered it , i just dont really care that much, and if I did then I dont think that shift would have been the same thing.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Duel on liberation

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
wylo de c:
I reckon when the Buddha saw the truth he went through his own deepening process as well.


According to the suttas, even after 40+ years of enlightenment, he continued to state that there is a final end to the path, and once one finds it, there is nothing more to be achieved in relation to it.

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