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RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness

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Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 5/14/20 10:38 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Noah D 5/13/20 11:28 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/14/20 6:28 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 5/14/20 7:13 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/14/20 7:22 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Alex Ford 5/14/20 11:51 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel Mon 8/6/20 7:16 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness agnostic 5/14/20 7:20 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness agnostic 5/14/20 7:45 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Steph S 5/14/20 9:15 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/14/20 9:30 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Steph S 5/14/20 9:41 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/14/20 10:04 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Steph S 5/14/20 11:30 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/17/20 4:20 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/14/20 3:01 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/14/20 3:11 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/14/20 3:46 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/14/20 4:28 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Mark Boolootian 5/14/20 3:47 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Mark Boolootian 5/14/20 3:52 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Hac Phi^2 Vita 5/15/20 8:50 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Steph S 5/14/20 5:21 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Papa Che Dusko 5/15/20 2:12 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Pepe 5/14/20 6:18 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Noah D 5/14/20 6:28 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ben V. 5/14/20 9:22 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 3:03 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 4:16 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 4:32 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/15/20 6:12 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 6:14 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/15/20 6:17 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 6:21 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/15/20 6:35 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/15/20 6:44 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 6:56 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Papa Che Dusko 5/15/20 7:13 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 7:27 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/15/20 7:56 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 8:08 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/15/20 8:06 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 8:49 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 10:26 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/15/20 10:35 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 5/15/20 10:41 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Papa Che Dusko 5/15/20 10:43 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/15/20 8:07 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/15/20 8:09 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/15/20 9:04 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Mike Smirnoff 5/15/20 8:10 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 5/22/20 8:42 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness agnostic 5/23/20 7:39 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 5/24/20 2:57 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Papa Che Dusko 5/24/20 4:06 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/15/20 6:50 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chloe Parker 5/16/20 11:41 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness tom moylan 5/20/20 11:28 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Smiling Stone 5/21/20 4:22 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ben V. 5/21/20 5:55 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Dan Jones 5/23/20 9:23 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/23/20 10:22 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Smiling Stone 5/23/20 3:42 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/23/20 3:51 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Papa Che Dusko 5/24/20 4:05 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/24/20 10:17 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Brian 5/15/20 4:17 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 5/15/20 2:00 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Georg S 5/15/20 2:59 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/15/20 2:22 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/23/20 12:52 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/23/20 1:25 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 5/30/20 4:08 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/20 6:03 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 5/30/20 6:46 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/20 7:05 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 5/30/20 2:47 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/30/20 4:00 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 5/30/20 10:07 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/31/20 1:23 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness agnostic 5/15/20 4:23 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 5/15/20 4:27 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness agnostic 5/15/20 8:19 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 5/15/20 8:30 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness agnostic 5/16/20 1:33 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Sarasti 5/15/20 10:54 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Stephen 5/16/20 12:19 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Smiling Stone 5/17/20 4:31 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 5/22/20 6:41 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness agnostic 5/22/20 7:53 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Sarasti 5/17/20 2:07 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Noah D 5/30/20 11:53 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness tom moylan 5/17/20 3:41 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness tom moylan 5/20/20 10:57 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Griffin 5/17/20 3:44 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness spatial 5/23/20 7:19 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness spatial 5/23/20 7:29 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Dada Kind 5/24/20 5:25 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ben Sulsky 5/27/20 2:39 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 5/31/20 7:38 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness shargrol 6/4/20 6:30 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 6/4/20 6:38 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 6/5/20 8:48 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/7/20 11:57 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/7/20 12:47 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/7/20 1:00 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/7/20 1:24 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/7/20 2:42 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/7/20 3:00 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/7/20 2:45 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/7/20 2:03 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/7/20 2:24 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/7/20 2:25 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/8/20 12:39 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/8/20 8:23 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/8/20 9:12 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 6/7/20 1:25 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/7/20 2:17 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/7/20 2:24 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/7/20 2:53 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/7/20 3:06 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ernest Michael Olmos 6/7/20 3:19 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Olivier 6/7/20 3:44 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/8/20 1:29 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Jake Frankfurt Middenhall 6/4/20 2:19 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/4/20 2:45 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 6/4/20 6:12 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Pierre Zakarauskas 6/11/20 9:08 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 6/7/20 7:20 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness JohnM 6/7/20 11:16 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Brandon Dayton 6/9/20 11:16 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness ahtrahddis 6/10/20 6:13 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/10/20 4:20 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 6/10/20 6:23 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/10/20 1:43 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/13/20 11:39 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/10/20 1:17 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Siavash 6/10/20 1:24 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/10/20 1:42 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/10/20 2:12 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Jake Frankfurt Middenhall 6/14/20 2:29 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/16/20 4:05 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/18/20 2:47 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/18/20 10:53 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/19/20 2:56 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/19/20 5:21 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/19/20 5:44 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/10/20 1:15 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/10/20 1:51 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ben V. 6/10/20 2:49 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/10/20 3:30 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Ben V. 6/10/20 3:50 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/10/20 3:58 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 6/11/20 6:41 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Jim Smith 6/8/20 5:58 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 6/9/20 3:16 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Jim Smith 6/10/20 1:18 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/10/20 1:30 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Jim Smith 6/10/20 2:34 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 6/10/20 3:12 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Jim Smith 6/13/20 7:05 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/13/20 11:41 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Jim Smith 6/15/20 4:18 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 6/14/20 12:05 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 8/5/20 2:36 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 8/5/20 5:39 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 8/6/20 12:36 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Not two, not one 8/6/20 2:30 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Chris Marti 8/6/20 2:31 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Laurel Carrington 8/6/20 4:03 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 8/6/20 11:30 PM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Monsoon Frog 9/15/20 3:56 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness J C 9/15/20 2:30 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Tim Farrington 9/15/20 3:40 AM
RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness Daniel M. Ingram 9/15/20 8:03 PM
On Monday an article appeared in the journal Mindfulness by Bhikkhy Analayo, who is a very strictly orthodox Theravada monk with impressive textual and linguistic skills and a bit of an agenda, as you will see if you read the article.

It does live behind a pay wall, and is probably not worth the $39 if you are only casually interested in such topics. If you have an academic position, hopefully your institution will provide access.

To put it gently, it is flattering neither to me nor to those who view the meditation maps and insight stages as many here do. In fact, it is one of the more aggressive attempts at a takedown I have seen in an academic context in a while. While not at all surprising from a certain point of view, given what one finds in MCTB1/2, and perhaps even surprising it took this long, it is relatively surprising to find it in a journal that not only strives for a high degree of scientific and ethical integrity, but also that I sometimes am asked to review for.

I have a good group that will help me and those named in it to deal with it with some sort of skillful response(s).

While something of a hit piece, I believe it does actually create the opportunity to discuss a large number of important clinical and scientific questions, as well as the relationships between things like clinical Mindfulness and Orthodox Buddhism, among other things. It also will allow for an opportunity to bring light to issues generally dear to the DhO's heart as I understand it.

May all our actions help more than they harm.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/13/20 11:28 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Mods - Feel free to delete this if inappropriate...

I would request anyone with access to the journal & willing to send me a copy of this to DM on the DhO.  Very interested in reading, being a fan of the writings of both Bhikkhu Analayo & Daniel Ingram.

I'm not a fan of the copyright violation being suggested but I'm in favor of leaving the decision about your post to Daniel, Noah. It's his* arse on the line if the author or the publisher of the piece takes offense.

*Note: meaning if someone were to sue over a copyright violation the only pocket to reach into in regard to DhO belongs to Daniel Ingram.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 7:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Regarding copyrighted material: it is very important, particularly in this politically sensitive case, to not piss off the publisher. Please respect that. Thanks!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 7:20 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 7:22 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Regarding copyrighted material: it is very important, particularly in this politically sensitive case, to not piss off the publisher. Please respect that. Thanks!

Thanks for weighing in, Daniel. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 7:45 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
It's probably just my subjective experience, but I sense feelings of anger in this article.

Darn.. no longer have access to the university library even though I still have my university login.

I read the abstract. This might be taken out of context since I can't read the full article, but for those who have read it... is this statement minimizing how difficult the dukkha nanas can be for people and saying they're basically no big deal?
"In particular, potentially adverse effects of mindfulness practices in the health care setting need to be placed into proper perspective, as the contention that even those who do not engage in deep and intensive insight meditation can suffer from repercussions potentially resulting from undergoing the insight knowledges is not accurate."

You need to read the entire article but the first sentence of the abstract is the key. Read that first sentence carefully.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 9:41 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Forceful form of mindfulness,
high-speed mental noting,
construction of meditative experience,
culminating in claims

"Construction of meditative experience" and "culiminating in claims" make it sound like they think fast-paced noting is forceful and practicing in this way results in a faulty/bad version of meditation, which doesn't actually move one along the progress of insight and does not really result in awakening.

The article asserts much more than that. I'm being purposefully vague right now, mainly because I don't have time to get into a lengthy discussion. Again, I would encourage a read of the full article.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 11:30 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I understand. I wish I could read the full article. The last time I had access to all those scholarly journals was when I was adjunct faculty a couple years ago. I checked to see if my old login would still work at the online university library and got denied. womp womp.

Noah D:
Mods - Feel free to delete this if inappropriate...

I would request anyone with access to the journal & willing to send me a copy of this to DM on the DhO.  Very interested in reading, being a fan of the writings of both Bhikkhu Analayo & Daniel Ingram.

Noah D:  
You can access the article by signing up for DeepDyve 14 day free trial.  I just did and it worked.  As long as you cancel before date, no charge.  Link was on bottom right side of site that Daniel linked.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/17/20 4:20 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Very sad to see this angry thing from Analayo. I'd expect much more care from him.


(Not meant to be a debate starter, just expressing sadness)

Two of you have said this paper was written in anger. Why do you say that?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 3:11 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Two of you have said this paper was written in anger. Why do you say that?


For me it just feels like that. It feels that he wants to put someone in his place, and ignores certain things, exagerrates other things, discuss things out of the conceptual frameworks that are defined for them and etc. It didn't look to me like an equanimous research work.
That doesn't mean he was/is angry, but it feels angry to me.

In terms of doctrinal content, this will convince those who are already convinced, so why worry about it ? It's pretty straightforwardly "From a normative theravadin perspective."

However, there is something in there, though, about the notion that Daniel's stuff shouldn't be equated with Buddhism. I can understand the concern that your own tradition is getting used by someone else in another way somewhere else... It is a kind of cultural appropriation, etc.

Ok, that's the title of the book, so I can understand why buddhists complain. Very valid. And the tone of the book is aggressive, that is true. I don't think mctb conforms with the pali canon at all, to be honest, and would probably see it as a gross misreading and violent imperialism if someone was to make such claims about my tradition. 

There is definitely a problem there...

I actually wrote out a huge reply, while reading the article, and realized something at the end of it which made me delete most of what I wrote. 

I found there is a progression in this article, or maybe I'm projecting. I also felt initially some kind of offensive stuff, which then turned to me into something more... helpless, pleading... 

Anybody else get that sense ?

Going further into it, I was actually left feeling the hurt there, with a strong sense of compassion ... And feeling bad for him. Taking on a more respectful perspective, regarding Analayo and many others' life choice to become theravadin buddhist monks.

We can acknowledge and respect the possible effects of a work like mctb on people who have taken a life engagement in a certain direction, who get criticized so harshly. And there is really something incredibly complex, there, humanly speaking...

Not saying that people like Ingram and Burbea and ... are wrong of course, in terms of experience, of discernment, of content........ But, I don't know, the end of Analayo's article just felt a bit heartbreaking for me.

As if all of a sudden, it became clear that what was actually going on was just a personal defense, a cultural defense of the theravadins' beliefs and life choices, a defense of their identity. And that is TOTALLY valid.

What do you guys think ?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 3:47 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.

Analayo generally
makes everything he writes available on his website, as well as sending out to the Agama Research Group mailing list.  I haven't seen the article come across the list yet, nor is it up on the website.  I would imagine it will land there before long, though perhaps not soon enough for those hankering to see what it contains.

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/en/personen/analayo.html

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/14/20 3:52 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Hang on - this is a publicly accessible article:

https://rdcu.be/b4aDZ

While that link may look suspicious, it isn't.  It was generated by Springer, so is safe to click and will take you to the artcile.

Oh. 

Should buddhism be considered as a private, public, sacred or common "good" ?

Should spirituality be considered as a private, public, sacred or common "good" ?

All of a sudden this just seems to reflect the problems of globalisation, such as this pandemic, and the inherently "territorial" and identity-driven functioning of human societies. What is a social group with no common reference points between its members ? Not a group. A collection of individuals. Which is how Thatcher defined society, in order to promote neo-liberalism.

Just some ideas out of nowhere.

Peace.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/14/20 5:21 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Thanks for posting the article, Mark.

Some comments. At first I thought he was trying to state that Dan's practice was lazy or that he wasn't actually meditating since he brings up so many examples of experiences Dan had happen during daily life. He excludes, in this part of the article, that Dan reports that he was clocking tons of hours of meditation in the interim between many of those daily life insight experiences. So this argument makes it sound like he thinks it's not feasible for any insights to occur off the cushion, despite the momentum one has gained during formal practice sessions. It ignores that some insights and subsequent re-wiring of perception can and do occur during periods of rest. In fact, those periods of rest, some would argue, are essential for re-wiring and insight to occur.

Later in the article he goes on to criticize the fast-paced style of noting, implying that it's a huge overshooting of effort and resulting in the construction of a meditative experience.. i.e. a fabrication of would-be meditation and not real meditation. So his interpretation Dan's style is that he's either meditating not at all or way too intensely. Has he read Mahasi's works? Here's a direct quote from pages 9-10 of the pdf I have of Mahasi's "Practical Insight Meditation". Sayadaw states that meditators should note every detail of the body's activity, and considering how many sensations actually occur in the body, how would one do that other than quickly? I'll re-iterate that Mahasi says "every detail".

"Contemplation should start at the moment you wake up. Since you are a beginner, it may not be possible yet for you to start contemplating at the very first moment of wakefulness. But you should start with it when you remember that you are to contemplate. For example, if on awakening you reflect on something, you should become aware of the fact and begin your contemplation by a mental note, reflecting. Then proceed with thecontemplation of rising and falling. When getting up from the bed, mindfulness should be directed to every detail of the body's activity. Each movement of the hands, legs and rump must be performed in complete awareness. Are you thinking of the time of day when awakening? If so, note thinking. Do you intend to get out of bed? If so, noteintending. If you prepare to move the body into position for rising, note preparing. As you slowly rise, rising. Should you remain sitting for any length of time, revert to contemplating the abdominal movements."

On pages 11-12 of "Practical Insight Meditation", it goes on to read: 

"Do not waver in your effort. You will make fewer omissions if you persist in your practice. When you reach an advanced stage of the practice you will also to be able to notice more details than those mentioned here."

Do not waver in your effort. Again, considering how many sensations actually occur in experience, not wavering in effort would mean extreme rapidity if the goal is to make fewer omissions. These are my thoughts for now. Might come back with more.

edited to add:
With regards to all the mapping in MCTB being entirely innaccurate - he does not discuss how countless meditators who have never even heard of the maps follow the arc of those maps and the progress of insight very reliably. Also excluded is the wide body of research Dr. Willoughby Britton has done, in a clinical setting, on this very topic. People from varying traditions, regardless of knowing anything about maps at all, exhibit the same arc and same stages.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/14/20 6:18 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Sancho: Sir, sir, the dogs bark at us.
Don Quixote: A sign that we ride, Sancho. 

(An usual misatribution to Don Quixote,  it comes from a Goethe's poem "But their strident barking is just a sign that we ride")



RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/14/20 6:28 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I'm just not a big fan of B.A.'s use of the subjunctive mood.  Don't tell me how I can practice mindfulness, tell me how I will.  I need structured, authorative guidance for my path!  ;)

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/14/20 9:22 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I read the article.

I find that from a Traditional Theravada standpoint it has valid critiques, meaning that certain things in MCTB2 are not in agreement with traditionally held ideas (nothing new here). Yet, I find the critique unfair in that it zooms in on points of disagreement between MCTB and traditional beliefs without looking at the wider context of Daniel's work and practice.  I think Analayo should take a look at practice logs here to see how serious practice is being done here. The critique is also, indirectly, a critique of the Mahasi approach and Burmese Buddhism overall. Nothing new here as there's been critiques of this appraoch for probably around half a century at least by other Theravada practitioners. Mahasi Sayadaw met strong opposition for his method, also on doctrinal ground. However, the proof is in the pudding as they say (Kalama sutta says the same in more eloquent ways) and it goes without saying that the method has benefited many. 

A more fair review would have been more balanced, IMO. B.A. is clearly not just taking a jab at Daniel, but a big hook punch to use the boxing analogy. I find this unfortunate as I enjoyed reading B.A.'s book on Satipatthana Sutta and he seems to have a strong practice foundation as well (his is in the Goenka method). I'm sure a more constructive dialogue could happen. 

If I was a Theravada Bhikkhu I would not exclude Karma and Compassion out of this. 

Monks believe that some people have more good karma than others and some have more bad karma than others. This means that some will have easy time to cultivate Jhana and others will have difficult/impossible time to cultivate Jhana. 

If indeed karmic points can result in people not being able to attain to Jhana even if they have the zeal to practice then what to do? I certainly remember when Jhana was easy to ride (never passed 5th) and then it all crushed into Dark Night. I could not get the Jhanas back. This was before I knew Ingram and his book (no print version back then) existed. 

Is it possible that I have exhausted my good karmic points on those Jhanas? I mean I did enjoy them after all. 

Here is were Mahasi dry Vipassana (and Khanika Samadhi) come for Rescue. Now those lost in Purgatory have a chance to plow towards SE. 

Mahasi style should be seen as something of great value for those of us with bad karma. Those unable to ride the Jhanic Arc of the Devas. 

If I was this monk in question I would contact Ingram and meet with him to have long conversations to try and understand it better and see if there is some benefit to it all. Not this jumping to conclusions as it doesn't align well with my tradition. 

I hope Ingram and Analayo meet some day soon and talk about all this face to face. I'm sure that would bring more clarity to it all. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 3:03 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
A silly thought (about Analayo's claim):

I wonder if Analayo has thought about the consequence of this:

The early discourses are quite explicit about the inability of male and female arahants to engage in sexual intercourse, due to the degree of mental purity reached and not related to any physical disability. It would hard- ly have made sense for the Buddha to found a monastic order if celibacy was not considered a central aspect of the path to the final goal, let alone of having reached that goal.



If this was true, and for a smart man like The Buddha, then he should have been careful with teaching people how to do metta practices!

May all beings fully awaken..., no no wait,
... All people become awakened and that's the end of humanity, since their mind is so pure to engage in having children.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 4:16 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
A few more thoughts on Analayo's article:


Analayo wrote:
The construction of meditative experience in accordance with maps is also evident in his report of how he attained the four absorptions and four immaterial attainments:

I wanted to see what the jhanas were like. During one sit I resolved to have the jhanas present themselves, and sure enough, one after the other, all eight jhanas presented, easily, nearly effortlessly, each shifting after a few minutes to the next one (p. 473).


The early discourses present absorption attainment as something requiring a high level of meditative expertise, to the extent that the Buddha himself underwent a sustained meditative struggle in order to master just the first absorption (Anālayo 2017b, 2019d, 2020). Clearly, the above description cannot be referring to genuine absorption attainment of the type described in the early discourses.
This simply ignore the previous part of this description from Daniel, that says that he was in a retreat at that time and had reached a high level of concentration. Does this kind of quoting from Analayo lacks fairness, or proficiency from a top researcher like Analayo?


Analayo wrote:
This helps explain in what way his meditation practice would have resulted in the mistaken claims surveyed above. Fast noting can easily proceed from noting what has just appeared, to what is just appearing, to what is just about to appear, to what one expects to be just about to appear. From this point onward, the act of noting can actually serve to create experience, even without the practitioner consciously noting that (pun intended). Combined with an aggressive type of mindfulness that is comparable with shooting aliens, such practice can turn into a construction of meditative experiences rather than being an insightful observation of what happens naturally. Due to the mind being so busy noting in quick succession, the construction of meditative experience to conform to sup- posed insight knowledges and even levels of awakening will not be noticed. Having trained oneself to create these experiences during formal meditation, the same easily continues during daily life. This explains the idea that the insight knowledges can be experienced in any situation, even when watching tv.

This is a very big claim, that all experiences that Daniel had are constructed by this noting practice. No proof has offered. Also Analayo ignores other practices that Daniel has done like kasina practices that are different from noting. Another thing that Analayo ignores, is what Daniel calls his 4th path attainment, and says that his perception has shifted drammatically since that point, and he perceives all experiences differenlty. Analayo doesn't talk about this shift, and based of the above quote, we should think that this shift in perception too is a constructed thing via the noting practices, which again is a big claim with no proof provided.


Analayo wrote:
A Christian mystic on the way to union with God, an insight meditator on the path to stream entry, and an MBSR student aiming at stress reduction and improved life quality should not be indiscriminately mixed up with each other. The Dark Night de- scribed by St. John is relevant to a Christian mystic and not to the cultivation of insight or a course in MBSR. The insight knowledges described by Buddhaghosa are relevant to a vipassanā meditator and not to a Christian mystic or a practitioner of MBSR, as neither involve the challenges that can arise in the Theravāda path of insight aimed at stream entry. In spite of some overlap, these three are doing distinct practices with different outcomes. For this reason, it is misleading if effects that might occur during deep insight meditation re- treats are conflated with potential repercussions of daily life practice of MBSR and similar programs.
Again, this is another big claim, that different traditions lead to different results because they have different conceptual frameworks and cultivate different techniques. How you can prove this? How you can say that there are different kinds of awakening, and based on what?


Analayo wrote:
In fact, the idea that these stages are secret lore does not concord particularly well with Daniel Ingram’s own claim that they are universal human experiences that anyone can have in daily life without even having meditated. If that had indeed been the case, it would hardly have been possible to keep them secret until now.

The point made by Daniel is not that the stages are secret and no one can find them. The point is that there is no informed consent in many of the practice settings. A person with trauma that registers to a TM course or MBSR course to do 20 minutes of meditation to calm their mind, is not expected to first go and read Visuddhimagga, Mahasi's book, Kornfield's book and then come and do their 20 minutes meditation.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 4:17 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
It must be hard to be specifically mentioned and criticized by Analayo, since he's a very smart and learned guy. But my instinct is that this is a cathedral vs. bazaar type issue. Nobody wants to be part of an important tradition, safeguarding precious practices for future generations, and doing things in incredibly specific ways for very deep reasons, and then have some upstarts not within your group doing things some way you think is inappropriate. But people are seeking guidance outside the sangha exactly because they have the sense that it's valuable, but they've done retreats and didn't hear stuff they found useful and actionable by the monks. Nobody wants to sit saying Buddho for 20 years and not make progress. It's not just westerners who are unable to adapt to eastern cultures or something -- V. Vimalaramsi apparently did ultra-Theravada for 20-someodd years, and eventually had to leave because he got much better results doing stuff not endorsed in the Visuddhimagga. Are they even measuring the efficacy of these methods? It matters, if we want to awaken in this very life.

// I forgot this point while writing the previous post.

Daniel, Chris, I don't know that the quotes that I made from Analayo's article violates the copyright or not. If it does, feel free to delete that post, and I'll edit its content (I have copied it) and repost later without quotes.

Siavash -- FYI from my copyright law experiences with Time-Warner:

Short quotes (a few sentences, a paragraph) are considered "Fair Use" and do not violate copyright laws. Long quotes (many paragraphs, for example) could be problematic.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 6:14 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Siavash -- FYI from my copyright law experiences with Time-Warner:

Short quotes (a few sentences, a paragraph) are considered "Fair Use" and do not violate copyright laws. Long quotes (many paragraphs, for example) could be problematic.


Thank you Chris for providing this info.
Then I let you decide if my quotes above are long enough to be problematic and need to be deleted or not!
(Sorry! Since I don't have enough knowledge of law to interpret that statement)

I think becoming a Buddhist monk, a lineage holder, a Zen Priest, a Theravada Bukkhu, a Tibetan Llama, or what have you, is like being admitted to a Guild. Guilds convey legitimacy to outsiders. Guilds protect their sources of knowledge, power, and influence. Guilds get to define the qualifications for becoming a legitimate Guild member. In these ways, Guilds protect themselves.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 6:21 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I think becoming a Buddhist monk, a lineage holder, a Zen Priest, a Theravada Bukkhu, a Tibetan Llama, or what have you, is like being admitted to a Guild. Guilds convey legitimacy to outsiders. Guilds protect their sources of knowledge, power, and influence. Guilds get to define the qualifications for becoming a legitimate Guild member. In these ways, Guilds protect themselves.


Yes that's understandable totally. My problem is with the fairness part. From a supposedly honest practitioner and top researcher like Analayo, I'd expect more care for fairness.

It occurred to me many times while reading the article that it is the farthest thing from academic, or "research." There is nothing research-like about it. It's more like literary criticism. It's all opinion and derived validation from others' opinions. It relies heavily on accepted norms that are not validated by any kind of research whatsoever. Maybe it's more like a newspaper editorial, with a defined, strongly held point of view that is being defended with anecdotes cherry-picked from other opinion pieces. Or maybe it's more like amateur anthropology because it relies so heavily on traditional ways of interpreting an ancient oral tradition that seems to me to have superstition and highly improbable fables behind it.

I do think it has a point in regard to Daniel's extensive storytelling, which is likewise opinion unsupported by research. Daniel might have overdone some of that in MCTB1/2, but then he wouldn't be Daniel. So maybe we can argue about that if nothing else.

emoticon

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 6:44 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
By the way, it's clear to me from reading the article that its over-arching theme is that Daniel fooled himself with his practice, and that Titmuss and Goldstein recognized this and tried to get him to slow down and self-reflect. This is where the criticism of fast noting meditation comes into play. The implication is that one can be so enamored and deeply "into" that method of meditation that it leads to the creation of a story about one's own practice and progress along the path. The article then uses Daniel's own words against him. The worst part of the article, for Daniel Ingram, is that part.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 6:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I agree with your comments chris, this is about assuring the perenity of the institution. And obviously the whole article is totally founded upon beliefs which are not shared by everyone. So it will only convince those who are already convinced by the orthodoxy.

It's the tension between conservation in traditional, fixed, rigid collective forms, and innovation, experimentation by the individual. And as we know from history this has always and probably always will go on.

Remember the Grand Inquisitor dream in the Karamasov Brothers ? It depicts the second coming of Christ. Christ criticizes the institution which has derived from his predication, as he was critical of the temple in his time. The grand inquisitor says : sorry, man, we're gonna crucify you again... We can't have you telling people that stuff about us...

And what about Hallaj, the sufi mystic who said "I am the truth", and was crucified by other muslims ?

This article is not even about "proving" a point in my view. It has no credibility in that regard as CHris pointed out. But it seems like defense of cultural identity. Albeit it is pretty petty in the ad hominem attempt at ridiculing Daniel publicly (don't let it get you down Daniel !). Looking at it with these glasses changes things, don't you think ?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 6:56 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
The worst part of the article, for Daniel Ingram, is that part.

Yes, this is the part that lacks fairness most, and it hurts.
It's like you are talking with your close friend/partner, and telling them honestly that, ...hey at that point that I did this thing, I was wrong..., and they instead of appreciating your honesty, start telling you that you are a bastard, you should not do this and that and anything else because you had done that wrong thing, etc. This is the kind of argument when you have two politicians on a presidential election debate/show and they want to destroy each other however they can, not how a scholar/practitioner should argue if they want to be honest and fair.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 7:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
By the way, it's clear to me from reading the article that its over-arching theme is that Daniel fooled himself with his practice, and that Titmuss and Goldstein recognized this and tried to get him to slow down and self-reflect. This is where the criticism of fast noting meditation comes into play. The implication is that one can be so enamored and deeply "into" that method of meditation that it leads to the creation of a story about one's own practice and progress along the path. The article then uses Daniel's own words against him. The worst part of the article, for Daniel Ingram, is that part.

The fact remains; ALL is in the mind! Also the Jhanas! We know of folks getting very comfy with Jhana bliss. We know Thanissaro Bhikkhu tells anyone who comes to his monastery to not be aftaid to cling to Jhanas and that it's better to be reborn as Deva, as apparently Human realm will not be a nice place to live in emoticon This is where he lost me! 

Both Jhana and Dry Insight Map orientated practice is All in the mind. Constructs. We use them by applying Mindfulness to it and seeing them for what they are = 3 Chatactetistics. 

Why Jhana works better for some and Vipassana for others is unclear to me. I blame Karma for this emoticon 

Im grateful both teachings exist. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 7:27 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Maybe this is a fair question: how many of Ingram's teachers, eg. Titmuss, Goldstein (and  others) think he's an Arahant?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 7:56 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Better questions, IMHO:

1. What is an Arahant?
2. Do Goldstein, Titmuss, et al agree on a definition?
3. Does it matter?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 8:08 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
An even better question might be, in my not so humble opinion:

Why call oneself Arahant if it has a well defined meaning in a certain tradition? Why not use some other terminology?

I know that Ingram says: Arahant is what you want it to mean (or something like that). I find this too vague for my tastes, but I don't mind it. On the other hand, there's a section on the technical 4th Path in Ingram's book (forget the word he actually uses but I think he calls it the technical 4th path).

So, here's another modified question: 

By which definition does Ingram call himself an Arahat? Is it by the technical 4th path thing in his book? If yes, how many of his teachers think that that has been accomplished by him? And how many of his teachers agree with that definition of an Arahat? I think these are totally valid questions. Because the whole area is murky. 

PS. I personally like the technical 4th path definition because I've never been into losing anger, sexual desire, etc, but more into getting to the bottom of the self. Not everyone does, clearly. (eg. Mr. Analayo).

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 8:06 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Why call oneself Arahant if it has a well defined meaning in a certain tradition? Why not use some other terminology?

I think Daniel Ingram used the traditional term on purpose. Daniel will have to speak for himself, but if it were me I'd use that term if for no other reason than to begin the debate about the traditional definition. Which, again IMHO, is nonsensical, mystical, and practically speaking, of no use in regard to the fruits of actual practice - unless one likes impossible goals. That obviously flies in the face of the beliefs of a lot of the members of the Guild, but it's a conversation very much worth having. In fact, I think the Guild is losing that argument these days. Maybe thus the article?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 8:07 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I'm with mike here. It's a bit like saying im a catholic saint. These are cultural designations and belong to the institutions, from a certain POV ?

Unless, Olivier, the purpose is revolution.

Sorry I added an edit after Olivier and Chris responded.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 8:49 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Sure, this is a good enough reason if this is the reason. But then a backlash is to be expected from the Orthodoxy. And yes, that, then, is quite possibly the reason for the article, and because such an article has come out, there's the reason to talk here to debunk that article, and so on! 

Good times!

PS. I personally would like to see Orthodox Arahat's being rigorously questioned about what they mean when they say they have lost sexual desire and then do rigorous testing on them to see if it has actually happened. My guess would be that they'd avoid it to maintain their Orthodoxy.

PPS. I've seen supposed Orthodox Arahat's behave like babies and get angry. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 9:04 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Dreamer ! emoticonemoticon

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 10:26 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I think the Guild is losing that argument these days. Maybe thus the article?

The pattern of dictatorships: They show more aggressive behaviors in their final days, to try to convince themeselves and others that they are still the main power (Let's be optimistic!).

Some people need religion, and we should respect that, is my view.

Well I didn't mean the religion! I meant the institutions built on the religion. But of course they will exist always too, but maybe in a different form.

Olivier:
Some people need religion, and we should respect that, is my view.

That's fine with me as long it's not forced on others. 

Just a few points, with more coming later as I formulate it and revise it, which I have spend probably 50 hours this last week on already, but need to clean out enough of BA's comments to not run into trouble with Springer for copyright vs fair use, as I have already been emailing with them about this. I have written what, with Analayo's comments in-line, is a 56 page response, about 24,000 words, as is my style, and, if you have read pieces like my response to Dr. Shane Lindsay or other Speculative Non-Buddhists, you will know well its tone and thoroughness. I take it apart, point by point, line by line, argument by argument, quote by quote. However, as much fun as that would be to post in its current unbridled form, that first draft was really more for catharsis and then revision and summary, not professional publication, which this article, in that journal, about these critical issues requires.

I have had one 90-minute video conference with Analayo on May 2nd and we will probably have another one today or tomorrow. It was initiated after I reached out to him to discuss my commentary on another article, by him, which I had written in the Fall and Winter, found here:

[url=]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334510183_The_Insight_Knowledge_of_Fear_and_Adverse_Effects_of_Mindfulness_Practices 

I will have a summary of some of the key points from that dialogue, which was continued by email, to post here, just need a day or to to organize some things, as a lot going on at the moment, mostly good.

Yes, his selective, highly skewed posting of my writings, often out of context, often without even mentioning explanatory texts that occur around them, and the like is quite annoying, to put it gently.

It was interesting, when talking with him over video, to notice his strong facial gestures, his marked tones of voice, often conveying what I believe most people would think of as strong negative emotions, even as he stated explicitly a few times that he had absolutely no negative emotions, no anger, no irritation, no disturbance. Make of that what you will.

There are some pretty complex ethical and scientific issues with the paper which I will unpack in detail at some point. One key point I will mention is this guideline from Springer (who publishes Mindfulness):

“Authors should avoid untrue statements about an entity (who can be an individual person or a company) or descriptions of their behavior or actions that could potentially be seen as personal attacks or allegations about that person.”
https://www.springer.com/journal/12671/submission-guidelines#Instructions%20for%20Authors_Ethical%20Responsibilities%20of%20Authors


Whatever else you think about the article, I personally find it pretty difficult to view it as involving no personal attacks or potentially untrue allegations.

One thing that some might have missed is towards the end where Analayo mentions by name a number of other authors, many of whom happened to be personal friends of mine, who he states must have adopted their views simply because I used the "physician card", ignoring the fact that a number of them have either MDs or PhDs themselves. It is a damning accusation of being so easily wowed by my MD that they would unquestioningly adopt my views despite the fact that I know for certain this is not the reason they believe the patterns of stages of insight are real and seen in clinical practice, however named.

In fairness to Analayo, he did confirm in an email the following point: He truly believes that, essentially by definition, Theravada Insight Stages can only apply to those on Theravada Insight Retreats, and thus he truly believes that to even conceive of them applying to any other situation is a serious error.

Analayo rejects Universalism and Perennialism outright. This obviously demonstrates strong degrees of incompatibility with the scientific paradigm, which tends to attribute, say, seeing a light in practice to the same general neurophysiological pathways regardless of the religion of the person seeing the light. He mentioned that, were we to simply use different language for the same clinical phenomena, his objections, at least to that part of it, would vanish instantly.

Unfortunately, many in the Mindfulness world, not understanding or even expecting this sort of fine semantic distinction, typically seem to take his statements that, for example, Fear cannot arise from Mindfulness, to mean that Mindfulness can't make one afraid or bring up frightening material, when, instead, Analayo actually means The Theravada Insight Stage of Fear cannot arise in those not on Theravada Insight Retreats, and, as Mindfulness isn't that, Fear the Theravada Insight Stage can't arise, QED.

In this, he clealry doesn't appear to fully understand the lines between religious, orthodox views, issues of cultural appropriation, and scientific ones. In this, I personally believe he radically oversteps his areas of core competence, which are scholastic and linguistic, however seemingly selectively and tactically applied.

He also appears entirely uncomfortable with the Theravada consisting of distinct denominations with distinctly different interpretations of what is considered fixed orthodoxy. He appears superficially comfortable with the Vajrayaya existing, he mentions, but then seems to miss utterly that they define the term arhat entirely differently. He then fails to allow this same leeway to those of us who yet define it in a totally different way, and that group is not as small and marginalized as he makes it out to be. If the Vajrayana can do it for their cluster of related denominations, why can't we do it for our cluster of related denominations? For those with the time, here's a brief history of the persecution of the Quakers. Obviously, this situation is not nearly so bad as what happened to them, but the basic attitude is, in ways, similar.

Further, from a scientific point of view, whose definition is actually more likely to be reproducible and validated in a rigorous behavioural clinical research context? This, at least in theory, is what Mindfulness the journal is about? Seriously, think about that for a moment with your rational hat on rather than your strictly orthodox religious one.

In fact, the appearance of this paper in Mindfulness means that these vastly more contemporay and progressive views have moved from the unknown fringe to the radical fringe (to be ignored) to the radical fringe (to be annoyed by but still largely ignore) to the level where they bring out a big gun like Analayo in a big journal like Mindfulness, which means that, at least to someone, we are perceived as enough of a threat to warrant that. This, while truly tragic, and filled with all the muck of human drama that the likes of Shakespeare comment on, was inevitable, as this is what newer, more progressive traditions go through, as the history of religion clearly shows.

The reasons for my unusual restraint at the moment is that I am coordinating with a larger team of academics and trying to find them funding, so politics must be played much more carefully than I typically do, as it may affect the livelihoods and careers of others. There is also the stipulation that works published in major journals have not been published elsewhere first, so I wish to hold my fire, as it were, until I know exactly where it will land and not run afoul of someone saying that the major points had already been published elsewhere, such as this internet forum.

Apologies for how odd that restraint it, but this discussion, for better or for worse, and not to be too grandiose, does have the potential for significant reverberations in the world of Mindfulness, clinical practice, and meditation science, things I deeply care about, so it must be done properly to the degree that we are able so that we take this opportunity for what it is, a chance to raise the level of dialogue and raise key questions about the relationships between a very particular denomination's strict interpretation of orthodoxy and now that relates to clinical practice, neurophenomenology, and the like.

Thanks for your understanding.

Best wishes!

Daniel

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/15/20 2:59 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Most I get out (and maybe I get little out) of Analayo's paper and this discussion, is offense and defense, action and reaction, good and bad, right or wrong. The sad thing about that is, that the "fight", which is claimed scientific, is being fought on the wrong battlefield. I guess this is one main issue Ingram is having here with Analayo, because this is triggering other issues (like scientific funding, etc.) but maybe I'm wrong, cause I'm of course not Ingramemoticon

But, to be honest, isn't it the same fight, we've seen between other buddhist traditions? Has this led to somewhere? For sure, somewhere and of course non-fruitful on one way, but fruitful on the other.

My thoughts about Analayo's intention of his offensive paper is not one he mentioned directly. What I read between Analayo's lines is, that one of the main issues he is having with Ingram are Ingram's "claim" that he is teaching core-teachings of the buddha, and that he is interpreting ancient texts, like the definition of an Arahant as an exampe, in an Ingram way, instead of an traditional buddhist one, which strictly follow the texts. I guess he wouldn't have wrote this article, if Ingram would have used a little less "provocative" title (or words) for (and in) his book, like "Mastering the Core Teachings of Ingram's interpretation of Buddhism". Maybe that would have made a difference, but maybe I'm all wrong here, because it's only my mind, messing around on dharmas overground.

Georg S:
My thoughts about Analayo's intention of his offensive paper is not one he mentioned directly. What I read between Analayo's lines is, that one of the main issues he is having with Ingram are Ingram's "claim" that he is teaching core-teachings of the buddha, and that he is interpreting ancient texts, like the definition of an Arahant as an exampe, in an Ingram way, instead of an traditional buddhist one, which strictly follow the texts. I guess he wouldn't have wrote this article, if Ingram would have used a little less "provocative" title for his book, like "Mastering the Core Teachings of Ingram's interpretation of Buddhism". Maybe that would have made a difference, but maybe I'm all wrong here, because it's only my mind, messing around on dharmas overground.
I felt that too.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/15/20 4:23 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
To be fair, I can understand why one of the passages from MCTB that Bhikkhy Analayo quotes could be viewed as provocative:

When some old monk with pudendal nerve damage (from extensive sitting), low testosterone, neuropathy from diabetes due to a rice-heavy diet with little exercise, and pudendal vascular disease finally cannot get an erection anymore, does that mean that all awakened men cannot get erections?

There certainly seems to be some testosterone flowing in this paper.

I understand that Daniel may have used the title Arahant to draw attention towards certain important issues, but like he says he was “expecting” such an attack at some point and - dare I say - maybe even inviting it? No need to be a martyr Daniel, you have done a huge amount for the dharma already!

I agree that Bhikkhy Analayo is quoting some personal passages out of context. Presumably the monks have personal practice-related discussions amongst themselves. I think Daniel did a great service by publishing his personal experiences and showing laypeople how serious practice is possible. He is very clear that they are just his personal experiences – YMMV – separate from the more “universal” aspects.

Bhikkhy Analayo casts doubt on Daniel’s Jhana attainments, but he doesn’t acknowledge Daniel’s claim to Nirodha Samapatti, which is a high digital attainment and less open to interpretation than jhanas.

That having been said, if it wasn’t for the sangha we almost certainly wouldn’t have Buddhist teachings and practice today, and probably the sangha will still be around long after pragmatic dharma has been upstaged with whatever the next new secular movement will be. You could argue that western monastics make greater sacrifices than eastern ones (trading more remunerative western careers for religious prestige which carries less clout in the west), so it’s understandable they have more "skin in the game". On some level it's about the value of the franchise and how you deal with "cheap knock-offs".

Finally, if pragmatic dharma is to become more established with funded research then it will probably have to become more codified and political as well ...

I think this discussion has brought some interesting issues to light, but I don’t think Daniel needs to defend against the personal side of the attack because it’s pretty obvious what’s going on.  And anyone reading this paper is probably well versed in the issues and already has a “side”.

Yeah, how about not reacting at all ?

I find it ironic how Bhikkhu Analayo dismisses Daniel’s childhood experiences and jhana attainments by comparison with the “high level of meditative expertise” in the early suttas and the Buddha’s “sustained meditative struggle”.

Here’s how the Maha Saccaka Sutta (MN 36) describes the Buddha’s training with two of the top meditators of his day:

What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Āḷāra Kālāma [resp. Uddaka Rāmaputta] declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.’ So it wasn’t long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.

Shortly after that the Buddha gave up ascetic striving and exertion and started reminiscing about a youthful experience where he had entered the first jhana spontaneously while watching his father working (that’s what they did before TV). Then he had a good meal and went back into the first jhana, which precipitated his awakening. Hmm …

Unfortunately, as to the question of the degree to which those reading Mindfulness will have some reasonable command of the issues, that is complicated. The audience will be wide, with a highly variable degree of competent command of the following topics: the various details of the Pali texts and commentaries, the complex history of these debates between various Buddhist sects, and an ability to deconstruct clever if highly selective rhetorical tactics.

I mean no disrespect to any of them. Most will come from a secular clinical background with perhaps a superficial smattering of Buddhism. Many who have deeper Buddhist knowledge and faith will not have sorted it cleanly from more secular knowledge and points of view, as this is not easy even for the very intelligent with strong meta-cognitive skills without a lot of time, and that amount of time is something most won't give that article.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/15/20 8:50 PM as a reply to Mark Boolootian.
Mark Boolootian:
Hang on - this is a publicly accessible article:

https://rdcu.be/b4aDZ

While that link may look suspicious, it isn't.  It was generated by Springer, so is safe to click and will take you to the artcile.

Thanks for sharing the full text!

This was a very interesting, and somewhat surprising, read. In particular I found it somewhat disappointing how the article, by clever use of out of context quotes, made it seem like the majority of the attainments Daniel describes in MCTB occurred not only off cushion but also basically without any surrounding formal practice. Surely if the aim was to offer honest critique of Daniel's perspective there would have been some mention of the extensive practice surrounding those experiences.

Likewise, the dead pan treatment of the analogy of shootin' aliens seems to be the closest thing to a misrepresentation that could be made without resorting to outright lies.

As a complete Noob on the path I have no insight into the validity concerning the more technical claims in the article, but look forward to seeing how this conversation unfolds.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/16/20 1:33 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I'm not familiar with the Mindfulness scene, but I still think the article is clearly coming from a place of anger whatever your level of expertise, so no need to respond in kind (which I'm sure you wouldn't anyway). I hope it doesn't negatively impact your interesting and important research projects. If you are perceived as a threat then it probably means you are doing something right (!), so I would just keep doing that and not waste too much energy on any perceived need to defend yourself.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/15/20 10:54 PM as a reply to agnostic.
I'm having a hard time settling this type of language with an academic journal:

"The point is only that the conclusions he presents pertain entirely to the realm of his own imagination; they have no value outside of it."

You'd expect a scientist, and perhaps even more so someone with deep meditative practice, to leave some space for uncertainty -- either as it pertains to their interpretation of another's results and conclusions, or to the validity of their own conclusions about them.

Siavash:

Analayo wrote:
A Christian mystic on the way to union with God, an insight meditator on the path to stream entry, and an MBSR student aiming at stress reduction and improved life quality should not be indiscriminately mixed up with each other. The Dark Night de- scribed by St. John is relevant to a Christian mystic and not to the cultivation of insight or a course in MBSR. The insight knowledges described by Buddhaghosa are relevant to a vipassanā meditator and not to a Christian mystic or a practitioner of MBSR, as neither involve the challenges that can arise in the Theravāda path of insight aimed at stream entry. In spite of some overlap, these three are doing distinct practices with different outcomes. For this reason, it is misleading if effects that might occur during deep insight meditation re- treats are conflated with potential repercussions of daily life practice of MBSR and similar programs.
Again, this is another big claim, that different traditions lead to different results because they have different conceptual frameworks and cultivate different techniques. How you can prove this? How you can say that there are different kinds of awakening, and based on what?



I think your comment here is key to understanding this conflict. Regardless of the perspective we might be taking, we're dealing with different conceptual frameworks which will subtly shift how the mind gets trained. Orthodox Theravada comes with a huge set of cultural values and a specific interpretation of what constitutes suffering and how that can be eradicated. So an Arhat from the stricter perspective is a sexless being who no longer suffers. That, I think, is possible but it's just one of many ways to use the techniques and teachings from these traditions. I think Analayo has a point from just a semantic perspective. But given all the caveats that DI has in his book, I wouldn't be surprised if he clearly states that he has a completely different interpretation of what Arhat means. It just gets confusing when people use the same word to mean different things. What is up with the fixation on titles?

This article seems fair game to me given the extensive attack on orthodoxy by DI. I hope something good can come from it. The sense that we have to hold to specific traditions in order to live up to every one of their ideals seems strange to me. The spirit of Daniel's writing and thinking (as I've gleaned from it) is to take this meditation tech and run free with it. We need to "Linuxify" it and adapt it to our own uses. This can be useful and also terrible if we fuck it up and don't download the right dependencies.

One last point about the bit that DI is just imagining everything. I think that's partly what these meditation techniques are for. To have a wieldy mind that allows one to incline it toward blissful states, or other more esoteric ones employs the use of imagination and observation as well so I wasn't entirely seeing Analayo's point about imagination as a ding against DI.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/16/20 12:19 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I was a researcher in the biological sciences for several years and have had my research and collaborations published in academic journals. I’ve also followed Daniel’s work for many years. I have to say that I am mystified that this article was published in a scientific journal. I have no idea the status of the Mindfulness journal but running down the list on the Editorial Board it seems as though it has a reputable collection of researchers. That leads me to suspect that someone at the helm is personally invested in seeing Daniel’s work diminished. Perhaps that’s obvious. I must underline that a case study of one person’s writing and trying to draw anything meaningful from a scientific standpoint is ridiculous. It runs counter to the most basic tenets of science. I can see it having a place and perhaps value in an academic journal of the humanities such as religion or anthropology. How is debating one person’s account of their own meditation experience in any way a matter of scientific investigation? In my experience the peer review system masquerades as objective and operates in a way that is far from it. I and many other researchers will tell you about experiences in which a researcher with questionable results will find a way to publish their results because they have a friend on the board of the journal. At any rate, I thought it important to put this out there. It’s obviously a political move and I really don’t think it warrants much of a response. For Daniel, I see he is ready with his full arsenal to respond and I support his desire to respond in any way he sees fit. I personally wonder if it might not be more strategic to simply point out some of the most glaring issues and not waste too much time. This is just a game after all. But I am not in close contact with the world of meditation research at this time so perhaps I would reconsider if I knew more about the research environment and politics happening behind the scenes. For my part, I am strongly considering writing to the editors of the journal and I suggest anyone else with a similar reaction consider doing the same. At least having some public response could help highlight the poor quality of this article. I also definitely agree that the “Ethical Guidelines” of the publisher that Daniel pointed to regarding personal attacks should be highlighted and strongly emphasized.

Stephen

Ok, I finally read the paper, here are a few thoughts:


About the political agenda :

Here is a selection of the articles that Analayo wrote for the "Mindfulness" publication:

"The Myth of McMindfulness," Mindfulness (forthcoming).
"How Mindfulness Came to Plunge Into Its Objects", Mindfulness, 2019, 10.6: 1181–1185.
"The Insight Knowledge of Fear and Adverse Effects of Mindfulness Practices", Mindfulness, 2019, 10.10: 2172–2185.
"Mindfulness-Based Interventions and the Four satipaṭṭhānas", Mindfulness, 2019, 10.4: 611–615. Doi: 10.1007/s12671-019-1097-2
and also referenced in this article:
"Effects of Mindfulness-Based Positive Behavior Support (MBPBS) Training Are Equally Beneficial for Mothers and Their Children With Autism Spectrum Disorder or With Intellectual Disabilities", (in collaboration with Nirbhay N. Singh, G.E. Lancioni, B.T. Karazsia, R.E. Myers, and Y.-S. Hwang), Frontiers in Psychology, 10.385: 1–13.


So what is "Mindfulness", the journal?
"This journal publishes peer-reviewed papers that examine the latest research findings and best practices in mindfulness. It explores the nature and foundations of mindfulness, its mechanisms of actions, and its use across cultures. In addition, Mindfulness features papers that address issues involving the training of clinicians, institutional staff, teachers, parents, and industry personnel in mindful provision of services.
Coverage in the journal includes reliability and validity of assessment of mindfulness; clinical uses of mindfulness in psychological distress, psychiatric disorders, and medical conditions; alleviation of personal and societal suffering; the nature and foundations of mindfulness; mechanisms of action; and the use of mindfulness across cultures.
Mindfulness features diverse viewpoints, including psychology, psychiatry, medicine, neurobiology, psychoneuroendocrinology, cognitive, behavioral, cultural, philosophy, spirituality, and wisdom traditions. It serves as a much-needed forum for the broad-based, leading-edge research in this burgeoning field."
It seems to me they have a keen interest in promoting MBSR and other clinical applications of mindfulness practices. What we see here is a campaign to kill the burgeoning awareness that any level of practice might be dangerous and lead one into dark territory. Daniel seems to be at the root of such awareness, and thus the one to be discredited. He is also quite vocal about MBSR...

So there might be a hidden agenda to reassure people that there is no risk of "insight disease" whatsoever for those who undergo "shallow" practices... As far-fetched as it seems to us, it is quite parallel to the stance adopted by the Goenka tradition that, if you get into trouble, it is because you brought it with you (See if the ten day retreats fit the "shallow" practice definition).
It seems quite political to me. He doesn't want to see the dukkha ñanas associated with lay practice, maybe because he sees that as a threat to the development of mindfulness in the west.

About the personal attack:

Analayo takes some of the most "unfortunate" quotes in MCTB, and answers these precisely, debunking them. It is not the best move, as there would be better ground for a fair battle.
But if you want to present Daniel as a... fake? Delusional? well, take some childhood dreams out of context that are given the status of insight knowledges... In the wealth of material of MCTB, there surely are a few moments where I read with unease (thinking it has been written by a gifted exalted teenager), but this does not take value off the book.

Also, Chris:
By the way, it's clear to me from reading the article that its over-arching theme is that Daniel fooled himself with his practice, and that Titmuss and Goldstein recognized this and tried to get him to slow down and self-reflect. This is where the criticism of fast noting meditation comes into play. The implication is that one can be so enamored and deeply "into" that method of meditation that it leads to the creation of a story about one's own practice and progress along the path. The article then uses Daniel's own words against him. The worst part of the article, for Daniel Ingram, is that part.

It also stroke me as some powerful criticism. I would add the facts that Daniel lowered the bar to his own height... And that him, like many others, turned to Vajrayana teachings (and actual freedom, and more) when the goal of arahantship appeared unreachable (per the suttas requirements)... or reached already, but nothing extinguished except the center of perception (which is something but not everything)...

My dream... would be to see Daniel take act of some of the valid critics hidden in the paper instead of just (righteously) barking back...


About the practice
:

How to accept that insight stages are experienced in daily life on a universal basis, as the purpose of Visuddhimagga practice is to manage to have them manifest through intense practice? The long exposition of each in Daniel's work implies that each has a huge array of intensity manifestations, from the most mundane and uneventful to the utterly life-changing. Imho they are too broad and let too much room for interpretation (like, Daniel's evaluation of almost ANY experience out of the ordinary is: "A&P"). The only signs of attainments are perceptual (perceptual shifts), not behavioural (change of conduct). That's a major difference with the suttas...
I've seen with Goenka, that we are asked to develop "proper sila" in parallel with the deepening of our practice. So, if you exhibit "proper sila", you are assumed to have a deep practice. People will tend to repress stuff before it falls away naturally... (As the path shows us that effort subsides, eventually, in every aspect of the practice). I assume this (repression) to be even more problematic for monks who are expected to behave in certain ways... We want sublimation, not repression!
I would not state that sublimation is impossible or totally out of reach... Some leave the world in pursuit of this, it seems a fair choice, certainly not to be despised.
The concept of nekkhamma, so central for monks is also forgotten in lay practice...and dispassion, it's a whole aspect of the path we are not so comfortable with.

I am listening to the nibbana sermons by Bikkhu Ñanananda, read and commented by Analayo (currently on number 18 out of 33)... He has spent three seasons of teaching on them and Ñanananda is one of his main mentors and inspiration with Bikkhu Boddhi. In these sermons, Ñanananda is quite critical of Buddhaghosa, the Visuddhimagga, and other commentaries when it comes to analysing the "deep suttas" that give the gist of the Dhamma. This analysis constitutes the main theme of these sermons. Analayo shares the views of Ñanananda, otherwise he makes comments... He has also spent decades studying the suttas, and has engaged in an impressive comparative work between the different traditions to deduce which suttas would be most ancient, i.e. reliably conveying the actual words of Buddha. I imagine these are tremendously important to him. He consistently defends the point of view of "early Buddhism" (vs "commentaries").
He has a big agenda against the doctrine of "momentariness" as being absent from the suttas, and it is quite central in our circles (from Abhidhamma onwards!), and in the description of the path moments...
Anyway, I find it interesting that he refers that much to the Visuddhimagga for right view in this article...

Where do we construct our meditative experience from? For a monk, your experience has to mirror the suttas (the suttas are what is labelled "truth"). For us "pragmatists", it has to match the progress of insight as delineated by MCTB. Even worse, some of us listen to their inner experience and label it "truth" without a clear frame of reference...
Subjective experience is but one aspect of the eightfold path. The scriptures are preeminent. If our subjective experience does not match the suttas, we have to integrate more deeply the suttas so that it does. Why is it so important for a monk to master them intellectually? because it gives him the required framework within which to develop his practice.

Worth pondering is Analayo's insistence on passive receptivity vs active "plunging" into the object. In my understanding, that's what you guys do from equanimity onwards (passive receptivity I mean)?

Well, I was really curious because I admire Analayo, and I am disappointed as well by the tone and angle of his attack. I hope that this can lead to some useful developments. We'll see.

All the best to Daniel in dealing with this...
with metta to all
smiling stone

(Edited for content)

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/17/20 2:07 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.

(From the FB Shinheads group)

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/17/20 3:41 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
this is just fantastic, really!  i am a great fan of analayo and a HUGE fan of Daniel.  so far I have only read Analayo's breakdown of the nama rupa insight stage but its hard not to see an agenda driven nit pickiness about the article so far.

i've also not read the comments from everyone yet but will do so.  that analayo brings up the vipassana jhanas right up front is also tantalysing as that structure has always been the one i most closesly identify my sitting experience with.

sorry..pretty excited...more later..

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/17/20 3:44 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
this discussion, for better or for worse, and not to be too grandiose, does have the potential for significant reverberations in the world of Mindfulness, clinical practice, and meditation science

This is probably the most important thing about this whole story. We can see this as a valuable opportunity to challenge dogma and orthodoxy in an academic “arena”.

Just a brief observation concerning Analayo’s view on “fast noting”:
Fast noting can easily proceed from noting what has just appeared, to what is just appearing, to what is just about to appear, to what one expects to be just about to appear. From this point onward, the act of noting can actually serve to create experience, even without the practitioner consciously noting that (pun intended).

This is one of his central arguments. However, it is just an arbitrary claim, postulated without any kind of support or evidence. In the same manner, I could proclaim, for example: “Passive, receptive style of practice can easily proceed from receiving what happens, to dully remembering what has happened in the past. From this point forward, the act of passive receptivity can actually serve to create experience through constructing the image of past events.”

To use Analayo’s own words against him:
the conclusions he presents pertain entirely to the realm of his own imagination; they have no value outside of it. The main problem here is that his rather strong claims are unfortunately taken seriously by some scholars and practitioners.
 
Instead of insisting on “one true way”, “Buddha’s original instructions” and so on, it is better to accept the variety of possible approaches and playful experimentation, which is advocated by Daniel, or by late Rob Burbea in StF:
 
The attention can work in a way where it ‘moves toward’ that point and probes it, penetrating that small area of sensation, like an arrow or a laser beam. Alternatively, at other times, it can be more useful to encourage a more ‘receptive’ mode of working, to let the awareness ‘receive’ the breath sensations. Here the breath may be conceived of, and thus perceived, as ‘coming toward’ the awareness, as opposed to the other way around. Rather than being separate modes, these two constitute more the poles of a spectrum. Within this larger range, it can be very helpful to experiment with different stances of the attention. With a little practice, we can learn to feel and move our way along this continuum, sensing and responding to what seems helpful in any moment.

(Seeing that Frees)

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/20/20 10:57 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
[font="comic sans ms", cursive]. From Analayo :According to Ingram (p. 279), the basic idea of insight absorptions is already evident in the early discourses. His proposal relies in particular on a popular misinterpretation of the Anupada-sutta (MN 111). Briefly stated, the discourse describes contemplating the emerging, persisting, and disappearing of mental factors characteristic of an absorption. The popular interpretation holds that this reflects insight meditation, in the sense of contemplating the impermanent nature of mental factors while being immersed in a state of absorption. Yet, because being in an absorption requires the stable establishment of these factors, it is not possible for these to emerge or disappear while the absorption persists. Hence, contemplation of the emergence or disappearance of these factors can only take place either just before entering absorption or else immediately afterward (Anālayo 2017b). This was already clarified long ago by Vetter (1988, p. 69), who pointed out that “it is certainly not possible to observe … the disappearance of these qualities in any of these states [i.e., the absorptions], because they are constituted by these qualities.”

Can't buy his assertion due to its leaning upon the doctrinal notion of Jahnas being a strictly binary state of mind which precludes all intellectual processes.... more later

excellent analysis.

i am surprised at how much "construction" is going on in this article...all by Analayo though.  I personally find the similarities between the mystic traditions far more interesting and engaging than noting that they are different and so are unworthy of comparison.

My OPINION is that these similarities are due to the common human structures that every homo sapien sapien is innately endowed with and that the cultural and linguistic nuances are what makes them appear as possibly different experiences.

My opinion is certainly influenced by Daniel but also by others.  Read "The #science of Enlightenment" by Young for a very good take on this.  I enjoy thinking of Meister Eckardt or Theresa de Avila or San Juan de la Cruz or even Ayahuasca Shamen accessing the layers of their humanity om all of their various ways.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/21/20 4:22 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
I was thinking about "receptivity vs forceful penetration of object" and realised I disagree with Analayo here. I believe (from my very limited understanding) that receptivity is not an option before we are quite advanced on the path, because we would be quickly overwhelmed with input. It is the rarefaction of inner occurrences through practice that allows us to open to the little bit that's left, with all the training we've got not to get sucked in the experience. That's why a modicum of concentration is really useful, it slows things down and give us an opportunity for release.
Also, my view on noting (from the outside, correct me if I'm wrong) is that it helps to separate the awareness from its object (you are not what you can name). So I would not talk about penetration... the distance induces deconstruction, which is what vipassana is about
Plus, the practice is bound to evolve toward more open receptivity... Thoughts?

with metta
smiling stone

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/21/20 5:55 PM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
That's kinda my understanding. Using precise focus until objects start vibrating, which means A&P and that the objects have been penetrated. After that, begin to enlarge focus and transition to a broad, receptive mode. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/22/20 6:41 AM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
I'm starting to see this thrash in a different way - it's an open-source model of awakening versus a traditional closed model.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/22/20 7:53 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Which is where you could argue the Buddha was coming from vs the Brahmins.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/22/20 8:42 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I know for certain that they do not agree on a definition of what is an arahat, and Christopher would likely have a mocking reaction to even using the word, and instead would point to immediate freedom here and now.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 12:52 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel, your restraint and diplomacy in a situation like this are admirable. Personally I find that the only thing that keeps me from very unskillful thoughts about it is my old trick of wishing the person in question sudden and complete self-knowledge, which is kind of ironic when the person in question is a supposedly realized monk. Maybe I should just wish that he would grow up. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 1:25 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
This directs a headlight to what I need to work on in my practice, because my reactions aren't pretty. I just want to see Analayo grovel in the dust for mocking the author of the book that saved my life. I need to get past that if I am to contribute with anything useful here. It might take a while. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 7:19 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
OK, I read the article.

In my professional opinion, it is bullshit.

Done.

Regarding copyright: In a former life, when I was doing academic work in computer science, we used to publish our own articles on our websites (against the wishes of the publisher), with a notice like this:

This material is presented to ensure timely dissemination of scholarly and technical work. Copyright and all rights therein are retained by authors or by other copyright holders. All persons copying this information are expected to adhere to the terms and constraints invoked by each author's copyright. In most cases, these works may not be reposted without the explicit permission of the copyright holder.

I guess we were rebels.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 7:39 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel,

I am genuinely interested - why did you decide to use the title Arahant when you wrote MCTB?

In what ways would you say has it helped and hindered your goals?

I'm not insinuating that you are not an Arahant, I have no ability to judge either way. I'm just curious to know what your thinking was and how it might have changed over time.

I am also tremendously grateful for your efforts in bringing the dharma to the unwashed masses in your own unique way. It helped me turn my life around as well.

With respect and thanks,
agnostic

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 9:23 AM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
Apologies to chime in here on something off topic I just wanted to correct something.

Smiling Stone:
I was thinking about "receptivity vs forceful penetration of object" and realised I disagree with Analayo here. I believe (from my very limited understanding) that receptivity is not an option before we are quite advanced on the path, because we would be quickly overwhelmed with input. 



You are quite correct in your intuition - the first thing I practiced was silent illumination. It basically involved sitting and I'd never sat and done nothing before, so it felt like I was going to die. But knowing this was ridiculous (I am just sitting in a room) led me to let go of everything & just let what ever happened, happen.

Some people have a natural inclination for receptivity and directed focus is the one that feels artificial or 'co-erced'. I understand some believe 'do nothing' or 'silent illumination' or 'dzogchen' to be an 'advanced' practive but for me I would never have meditated if it hadn't immediately clicked like this.

instructions, techniques and guidance to me feel artificial, although now I deeply appreciate it all. 

There's something to be said by being completely overwealmed by input - like you are going to die - and then being ok with that (knowing you are physically safe) and letting go of everything. 

Sometimes I think techniques get in the way. What are we trying to control, pick, avoid when we go to the safety of techniques, methods & quidance? Just what ever is in our mind! There's little risk of physical death if you're just sitting there, so what is it we are afraid of? 

Sit at the sound of the bell. Walk at the sound of the bell. Bow when others bow. Smile when others smile. Leave when it's time to go.

The risk when one is a bit more of an experienced practioner (a couple hundred or 1000 hours) is that one doesn't have the fundamental confrontation with suffering again, and it's easier to sort of zone out a bit or 'just sit' but really zone out for a few hours, just sort of dully noting sensations, and also rationalize it, that since they're all the 6 senses you are noticing you are 'practicing'.  At least that's how it is for me with 'silent illumination' or 'choiceless awareness' today. 

TL;DR: There's something to be said for silent illumination / receptivity / choiceless awareness as a practice *in the beginning*. I would not have seen the value in meditation if I wasn't blessed with the enourmous good fortune of having happened to have practiced this the first time I sat. I didn't know it until later.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 10:22 AM as a reply to Dan Jones.
What you said resonates with me, Dan Jones. I started out with "do nothing" too. There was no need to seek out stuff to notice because I was bombarded with impressions anyway. That's probably because of my atypical wiring. So yeah, it is possible to start out receptive (or filterless), just like it is possible to start out in a great variety of other ways, which is why it is great to have a variety of approaches. After stream entry I do not get overwhelmed as easily (which has revolutionized my daily life - like today I'm doing laundry without being sick for the rest of the day because of the noice and the smells, and that is a miracle!). Unfortunately I can also relate to the dullness. There was a period, or several periods to be more precise, when I needed the noting because when I finally had filters, I also had a new defense mechanism to deal with that I never had before. Noting cut through that very efficiently. Now I'm back to being able to "do nothing" again, just like in the beginning but with more insight behind it. 

I don't think I'll ever be able to understand the need among many dharma teachers (not Daniel, thankfully) to fight other methods and be scornful and condescending about it. It seems very counterintuitive with regard to the dharma, doesn't it? Wrong speech, anyone?

By the way (the following is a response to Analayo's weird claims, not to Dan), I'm one of those inummerable practicioners that had been cycling according to the Theravadan maps for many many years before I started any systematic practice or heard about the maps or even knew anything about methods for meditation. People who are convinced that the cycling only happens with certain specific methods must be really poor phenomenologists, the way I see it, because the cycling is so obvious. Either that, or they haven't even passed the A&P, which would explain the lack of cycling. In the case of a respected dharma teacher, I certainly hope it's just poor phenomenology. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 3:42 PM as a reply to Dan Jones.
Hey Dan, you have a point. I should not make generalizations, for sure. And if I think about it, I also started with some kind of open awareness (looking at the content of my mind) long before I bumped into a more organized practice... and I remember that it was immensely easier to dwell in this luminous space than to concentrate on a pee sized spot above my upper lip (an exercise proposed by my father when I was a kid as "what zen monks do"! It was a big achievement to be able to dwell there for a while during the anapana period of my first Goenka retreat, thirty years later).
Anyway, I do not think this (silent illumination) is what Bikkhu Analayo has in mind when he speaks of receptivity. His guided meditation are not devoid of guidelines, as he uses a quick bodyscan approach to introduce the different concepts he extracted from the Satipatthana sutta (through his comparative study) and finishes with a strong focus on the three characteristics leading to dispassion. So it is not like he advocates pure "non-doing".
I'm reading "Birth of insight" these days and it is quite clear there that the primal role of the monks is to protect the Dhamma by preserving the tipitaka. So it is normal (kind of) that Analayo does not recognize a practice that would not be framed by the scriptures (as he considers that MCTB misrepresents the scriptures).
I feel really moved by the testimonies of all those here who have been somehow "saved" by MCTB, and would not understand that somebody like Analayo is not...
Chris, I like the open-source vs close dogma model...

with metta
smiling stone

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/23/20 3:51 PM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
Yeah, I don't think that is what Analayo advocates either. 

I like the open source dharma idea too, by the way. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/24/20 4:05 AM as a reply to Smiling Stone.
Let me just say;

I told my partner that if something was to happen to me and Im no more, to make sure and give our boy the greatest gift I could ever give to him; my copy of MCTB.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/24/20 10:17 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
Let me just say;

I told my partner that if something was to happen to me and Im no more, to make sure and give our boy the greatest gift I could ever give to him; my copy of MCTB.

Wow, that's beautiful. I think my heart just melted.

The pros and cons of using the title "Arahant" or whatever spelling are pretty straightforward:

Pros:
1) I genuinely think my experience fits with at least the Bahiya of the Bark Cloth sutta description, so it points to and fits with that, and thus seems truly honest.
2) Whatever I have attained utterly solved the thing that I was looking for vipassana to provide me, and, by pointing out that, and believing that others, should they attain this, would also find what they were looking for in vipassana, which arahantship is supposed to be, so it seems skillful and inspires others.
3) It helps convince others that this can be done.
4) It helps to normalize and bring the whole thing down to earth.
5) It is a clear, unambiguous pointing to my sense of my credentials and place where I am coming from when I write and speak.
6) It models the straightforward discussion of attainments that I believe can be beneficial, so avoids hipocracy.
7) It filters out those who are offended or put off by the term, thus saving them from wasting their time and me from having to listen to them complain as much.

Cons:
1) It really freaks out traditionalists and those who like their own definitions of the term and who love the myths of Buddhism and take them literally.
2) It really freaks out those people who believe that such attainments are actually unattainable.
3) It really freaks out those who don't believe that anyone should speak publically about such things.
4) It is moderately to heavily offputting to those who believe in other goals and spiritual paths, particularly those who cling to them exclusively, such as bodhisattva ideals, Atman, Kensho, Satori, Divine Marriage, etc.
5) It freaks out scientific materialists who don't realize that my definition is actually extremely compatible with numerous scientific models and views.
6) It annoys other alpha-teachers who want to dominate the space, considering it some sort of territory marking, bragging, a challenge, or attempt to grab market share and the like.
7) It annoys the betas of those same alpha-teachers who then feel they have to rally to the defense of the alpha, thus creating sectarian divides and conflict that extend beyond just the alphas.
8) It focuses practice for many on a goal that they believe is far in the future and not just THIS IS IT.
9) It creates comparison, envy, jealousy, judgement, and all of that.

There are probably others, but those are the big ones that come to mind.

Still, I am happy that I did it, realizing that lots of problems were also created, but consider the alternative carefully, which had already been done a lot, and how was that reaching those who benefitted from the other path? So many teachers, so many books, so many centers, so many traditions: isn't there room for one that does things this way?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/24/20 4:06 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I'm glad you weren't gored by a cow defending her calf the day you realized This Is It emoticon but it seems traditionalists are trying to gore you now! My best wishes are with you. 

On my part I can only practice well and see for myself if MCTB is true or not. So far it seems to align with my experience. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/24/20 5:25 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Sci-Hub is an organization which is attempting to free academic research from the corrupt academic publishing industry. They allow downloading PDFs from DOI, etc. Using it to download papers is illegal in many countries. Their website is https://sci-hub.tw/

Unrelatedly, if anyone would like to cite this Analayo article for their research the DOI is 10.1007/s12671-020-01389-4

Looking forward to reading Daniel's response!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/27/20 2:39 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Perhaps this is your graduation from gadfly to heretic !


Ok, more seriously, I don't think it's surprising that a strict Theravadan monk would feel very threatened by MCTB2.  I think MCTB2 is anarchic, anti-dogmatic, and at least a little bit polemical.  I imagine Analayo as someone working in a fairly rigid hierarchy with a rich tradition that he's devoted his life to maintaining and protecting.  Then MCTB2 swoops in and uses these venerated practices, terms, and concepts in all kinds of ways that don't seem to fit with the tradition, and what's worse, people begin to listen.  

So, I wouldn't expect careful logical arguments and textual analysis to resolve this matter.  It might be more about all kinds of complicated emotional territory that's deeply entrenched on both sides.  Good luck!!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/30/20 4:08 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
This directs a headlight to what I need to work on in my practice, because my reactions aren't pretty. I just want to see Analayo grovel in the dust for mocking the author of the book that saved my life. I need to get past that if I am to contribute with anything useful here. It might take a while. 


Linda, I had a similar reaction, but this article is not what it appears to be. Daniel explains in https://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2019/06/27/pragmatic-dharma-and-unexamined-ends/#comment-89308 what's going on. He calls it a "Pattern 2 attack" and the point is to be misleading, distorted, exaggerated, and unfair on purpose, as a way of seeing how people react. If it stirs up something for you, as it did for me, may we examine the sensations that make that up closely and use that to awaken.

I told my girlfriend to say "Look at the suffering" whenever I tell her I'm dealing with some form of anxiety or stress. It helps a lot - sometimes I'm able to "catch" a difficult sensation right there, and it self-liberates, freeing me up in some way.

J C:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
This directs a headlight to what I need to work on in my practice, because my reactions aren't pretty. I just want to see Analayo grovel in the dust for mocking the author of the book that saved my life. I need to get past that if I am to contribute with anything useful here. It might take a while. 


Linda, I had a similar reaction, but this article is not what it appears to be. Daniel explains in https://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2019/06/27/pragmatic-dharma-and-unexamined-ends/#comment-89308 what's going on. He calls it a "Pattern 2 attack" and the point is to be misleading, distorted, exaggerated, and unfair on purpose, as a way of seeing how people react. If it stirs up something for you, as it did for me, may we examine the sensations that make that up closely and use that to awaken.

I told my girlfriend to say "Look at the suffering" whenever I tell her I'm dealing with some form of anxiety or stress. It helps a lot - sometimes I'm able to "catch" a difficult sensation right there, and it self-liberates, freeing me up in some way.
That's kind of what I said, isn't it? That it shows me what I need to work on.

Whether or not it was Analayo's actual intention to help us awaken in that way is not so relevant, though, as I see it. He's not my teacher. If he were to want any credit for pushing people to grow by being misleading and unfair, then I'd say that says something about what he needs to work on.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/30/20 6:46 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Seems like you're judging yourself for the reaction and saying you need to get past it, or thinking you shouldn't feel it. But don't repress or avoid it - it's a normal human reaction. Just look at it closely without trying to judge or push it away.

I just wish that I had the energy and focus and resources to contribute to Daniel's and the other researchers' work with regard to this. I'm part of the mailing list, so I can see that they are doing a great job, and I guess I feel inadequate for not taking part in it. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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5/30/20 2:47 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Glad to hear that they're on this! Are you a researcher? Jealous of your mailing list access and very curious what people are saying or planning. Are they working on a response article? Or getting Mindfulness to retract this unethical and misleading attack?

I am a researcher for another four weeks, and then I'll be unemployed. There are lots of stuff going on in my life right now, some of which is really draining, so I haven't been able to keep up with the conversation. The main conversation is about setting up collaborations to do meditation research, but I know that this Analayo thing has been addressed. I don't have the energy to go through all that conversation knowing that I won't be able to take part of it. I plan to keep writing my book based on my latest research, somehow, even though I might lose my disability money from it, because that's my contribution to the world, but it seems like I will have to let go of the academia. I'm grieving. So I'm not able to provide any information. Even if I were, I don't think it would be my place to do it. Sorry. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/30/20 10:07 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I am a researcher for another four weeks, and then I'll be unemployed. There are lots of stuff going on in my life right now, some of which is really draining, so I haven't been able to keep up with the conversation. The main conversation is about setting up collaborations to do meditation research, but I know that this Analayo thing has been addressed. I don't have the energy to go through all that conversation knowing that I won't be able to take part of it. I plan to keep writing my book based on my latest research, somehow, even though I might lose my disability money from it, because that's my contribution to the world, but it seems like I will have to let go of the academia. I'm grieving. So I'm not able to provide any information. Even if I were, I don't think it would be my place to do it. Sorry. 

I'm sorry to hear. These are crazy times, with pandemics, depressions, and massive rioting throughout my country. It's been draining and difficult for me too. I am sending you lots of love and good wishes and magical energy, and may you find an awesome research job and become an arahat as quickly as possible.

And I'm pissed at Analayo and Mindfulness about all this - it shakes my faith, and I hope bad things happen to them!!!!! The journal really should retract this unethical and misleading paper.

Sarasti:

(From the FB Shinheads group)
LOL I made this & then a friend posted it to that group.  Funny to see it circulating.

J C:

I'm sorry to hear. These are crazy times, with pandemics, depressions, and massive rioting throughout my country. It's been draining and difficult for me too. I am sending you lots of love and good wishes and magical energy, and may you find an awesome research job and become an arahat as quickly as possible.


Thankyou! Love and metta and very best wishes right back at ya! When it comes to sending magickal energy, just be careful. In my experience, if it does succeed, it might have consequences for both parties involved that go beyond what you intended. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
5/31/20 7:38 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
On Monday an article appeared in the journal Mindfulness by Bhikkhy Analayo, who is a very strictly orthodox Theravada monk with impressive textual and linguistic skills and a bit of an agenda, as you will see if you read the article.

It does live behind a pay wall, and is probably not worth the $39 if you are only casually interested in such topics. If you have an academic position, hopefully your institution will provide access.

To put it gently, it is flattering neither to me nor to those who view the meditation maps and insight stages as many here do. In fact, it is one of the more aggressive attempts at a takedown I have seen in an academic context in a while. While not at all surprising from a certain point of view, given what one finds in MCTB1/2, and perhaps even surprising it took this long, it is relatively surprising to find it in a journal that not only strives for a high degree of scientific and ethical integrity, but also that I sometimes am asked to review for.

I have a good group that will help me and those named in it to deal with it with some sort of skillful response(s).

While something of a hit piece, I believe it does actually create the opportunity to discuss a large number of important clinical and scientific questions, as well as the relationships between things like clinical Mindfulness and Orthodox Buddhism, among other things. It also will allow for an opportunity to bring light to issues generally dear to the DhO's heart as I understand it.

May all our actions help more than they harm.

Hi Daniel, I'm sure you're fine with regard to savvy, trusted people who will craft an appropriate response. I think the larger issue here is simply the issue with any innovator of your stature: legacy, lineage, and how many fruits your buddha field yields. If you have taught well, if you have brought many seeds to fruition, and they teach well, in their turn, and so on, it doesn't matter what shit they talk about you, now or ever. You're in the buddha-making business, from one way of looking at it.

I was recently exercised by the crucial difference between Christianity and Buddhism. Why did someone of Jesus' potency leave a legacy, in the fratricidal cluster fuck that is Christianity, which has arguably been worse for the world than the horrific situation of the Jewish nation when he began his teaching career. Why is the Buddha's legacy still so incredibly fruitful in its myriad forms throughout the world, so vibrant and lively to this day? I think it is found in the fruits of their teachings, and their consciousness of how to make disciples into what they were themselves. Jesus, through haste, impatience, hubris, the incredibly volatile political situation in Judaism and Palestine under the Romans, or whatever, made his worst mistake in not leaving a prophet-field full of ripe, mature disciples who had had time to fully embody his teachings. Three years is a joke; and much of the story in the Gospels is of Jesus again and again finding the 12 and the rest utterly clueless as to what he was getting at: story after story of buffons, greedy spiritual materialists, political zealots, you name it. When he died, they were all suddenly saints? No, they were the same buffoons and fuck-ups they had been while he lived and chastened them, but now he was dead, and no longer tweaking, correcting, chastising, teahing. Suddenly, they were the state of the art in what was still a Jewish sect, well within the much larger boundaries of what historians of relion now call routinely the time's Judaisms. Throw in Paul, and a bunch of even worse-trained Gentiles, and the catastrophe of the rebellion against Rome, the sack of Jerusalem, the burning of the Temple, and the general scattering of the core of most-together Jesus disiples under the leadership of his brother James, and the field was wide open for the cleverest monkey--- Paul of Tarsus, who had not even known Jesus in the flesh--- to rip off the legacy of Jesus whole cloth. And so the road to Auschwitz is laid, in Christianity's perpetual inferiority complex toward Judaism, a deep uneasiness that has been vividly on display as 2000 years of the most brutal anti-Semitism by what has come to be one of the world's most student and tone-deaf religions.

Contrast the Buddha, and his legndary decision to forego nirvana and teach. He did it right: forty years, raising crop after crop of great disciples to maturity and their own monistries, fruitful in turn. This the remarkable flexibility and adaptibility of Buddhism to this day, the vivid living dialogiue between scripture and renewal, and the eyernal emphasis on meditation 101 in whatever form the latest renewer teaches it.

I think MCTB2 will take its place just fine among the secondary scriptures of Buddhism; i think you've done the job right, and you never took a fucking penny for it, just like Jesus and the Buddha, poor men and beggars both, living in the straitest material circumstances as a matter of course.

It will not come down to whether you refute or reply or whatever anyone at all. It will come down to what you found, how much you were able to seed others with that, how well you raised those crops, and how well the fruits of those crops are able in their turn to pass on the recognizable evolutionary type that is pragmatic dharma (or whatever).

i think you're good, as they say. You've got the cards, just play out the hand. You were all in on this from the moment you set out, and it seems to me you've done what you set out to do and more. Thank you, as one of those who has benefitted from your work.

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/4/20 2:19 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Wow. Analayo is trully impressive, his verbal skills are top notch as well, a very very smart monk. Lot of his arguments are strong...

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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6/4/20 2:45 AM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:
Wow. Analayo is trully impressive, his verbal skills are top notch as well, a very very smart monk. Lot of his arguments are strong...

Really, what arguments were strong? I didn't see any strong arguments - he was just saying parts of the suttas contradicted Daniel's actual experience, therefore Daniel's actual experience must be wrong. Not at all impressive.

Especially since he egregiously took quotes out of context and misrepresented Daniel's book - he wouldn't have had to do that if he had any basis for anything he said.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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6/4/20 6:12 AM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
<<Sarcasm>>

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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6/4/20 6:30 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:

Why is the Buddha's legacy still so incredibly fruitful in its myriad forms throughout the world, so vibrant and lively to this day? 

It's worth really exploring this claim.

As always, whenever you look into a particular religion it becomes very hard to find objective reporting. It tends to fall into two camps 1) those inside what want to put the best face on the institution, and 2) those outside that want to tear it down. Because religion is so tied to nationalism, the rhetoric gets turned up 1000-fold...

But that said, it's pretty clear that buddhism has some very serious problems like all religions. The monestaries we imagine rarely exist in reality. The dogma gets co-opted for social or nationalistic purposes. It's often used to keep masses of people in their place instead of making strong and independent individuals. And there is a lot of deceptional marketing about the teaching and the perfections of monks/nuns... And cruelity is found in the treatment of novices, monks/nuns, lay people... it's actually really sad the more you look into it.

Nothing unique to buddhism, it's there in all institutions. But the point is buddism hasn't been immune from corruption. 

It's really fascinating stuff when you really start exploring it, so I recommend going down the rabbit hole with a critical mind.It will be depressing to see that buddhism isn't immune to the sh*tshow of other religions, but you'll come out the otherside with a deeper appreciation of how relentless samsara/sin is and how we really do need to work diligently on our own practice to loosen the bindings of our delusions. Hopefully it also creates a sense of urgency and responsibility. Things won't improve unless we see the shadow side clearly and work to shine light on it -- without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

+1

So true!

I agree with most of that.

However, the fundamental problem is not so much with religions, nationalism, institutions as it is with a fundamental problem we, as human beings have.

We don't have a way of sharing experiences. We have words, videos, gestures, but it's like explaining a movie. You can summarize a movie, see the expression of the person who saw it describing it, but it is definitely not the same as "seeing" the movie.

As we can't share experiences, this creates another fundamental problem: trust. We can't fully trust. Another problem with trust is authority. We can't have perfect authority or even partial lasting authority.

So, for person who starts meditating, you can't give them a glimpse of the results, even a glimpse of what has to be done.

We can describe things to infinity, try to convey meaning into jokes or paradoxes or summaries, but as more and more people participate it becomes more and more difficult for it to be really useful.

This fundamental problem happens not only with religions, nationalism and institutions.

It happens with the Dho, with all dharma communities, and even with groups of people, and groups of friends.

I'm not saying that all that is not useful (it is) but it's usefullness has hard limits that can't be surpassed.

After 10 minutes of describing a movie or an attainment, a person will get bored or relate your description with other movie they saw (or some experience they had) in a way that probably has nothing to do with the one you are describing.

Words and concepts can inspire, can describe, can create connections between people, etc. But they lack detail, granulatity, so you can't keep adding, keep building on top of them.

At some point (sooner than most people think) we will have machines that map of get what is happening in our heads. Real progress will be made.

But this will create another problem. It will be machines, it will not be "us".
It will feel unnatural, foreign, trusting machines.
But that's a topic for another discussion (the rise of the machines) emoticon.

My opinion anyway.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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6/7/20 12:47 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest : Do submarines swim ?

When I read the word "submarine" I instantly thought "yellow" (the beatles song).

I've never seen a yellow submarine (other than a picture). I've never seen one "swimming".

Have you? Do you like swimming? Are you claustrophobic?

If you are not going to talk about something you experienced, what are you talking about?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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6/7/20 1:24 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
I think you misread my intent. This is not a joke, it's a quote from Chomsky. I'm adressing the last part of your comment.

It's about the notions that machines could think or "understand humans". The turing test thing. Chomsky argues that it's as meaningless as asking the question : Can submarines swim ?

No. They don't swim, they are not humans. Similarly, machines cannot think.

The notion of technological singularity is absurd. It's a scary mirage based on scientific materialism, and a logical one at that, if you are a physicalist. It's the same fear as the fear of imagining "the thing in itself", behind the "representations" which our experience supposedly is. If our experience is an emergence from symbolic operations of material structures in our brains, then sure, machines could become AI. But if that were the case, there would be more pressing and scary issues emoticon

To me, it's the vertigo of make-belief. We imagine something and then start believing it is real, and it scares us. Doesn't mean that it will happen.

My opinion is : machines and computers are basically writing systems, that is all. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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6/7/20 1:25 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Yes, clearly the problem of internal experience not being easily confirmed is a huge one, and it is not new, being the last question the Buddha allowed before he died. Still, it is true that we are getting tastes of what that would be like, as those of us who have been part of EEG and fMRI studies with near immediate feedback know.

Also, clearly some words work better than others in various situations and among various groups, so working on the language and its capacity for precision has its place, as we know from medicine, for example, that now has vastly better terms than it did, say, 100 years ago. Despite the forces that would attempt to chain us to or bar us from references to the ancient roots of the ever more nuanced language that is evolving to describe contemporary meditation practice, progress is marching on in its way.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
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6/7/20 2:03 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
When I read the word "submarine" I instantly thought "yellow" (the beatles song).

I've never seen a yellow submarine (other than a picture). I've never seen one "swimming".

Have you? Do you like swimming? Are you claustrophobic?

If you are not going to talk about something you experienced, what are you talking about?


I think Olivier was trying to find out whether you were a troll bot, or a human being. Unfortunately, in generating this asinine, clueless. tone deaf, and almost random response, you failed utterly, in Turing test terms. If you've never experienced anything more valuable than the machines you look forward to replacing us, what are you talking about?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 2:17 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
If a person tells you his leg hurts, you ask him how much.
He tells you "a lot". How much is "a lot"?

Of course you can get some information from his face, his history, the leg itself. He can also say "huge pain", "or very little".

But eventually you can't get the sensation from the patient.

Words have other problems.

For a person used to pain or who has suffered a lot of pain, "very little painful" may describe very painful.
If you are used to "wow" experiences in meditation, you may describe like a "meh" an experience that for other person would be a wow.

And then there is lying, exaggerations, minimizations, the placebo effect, imitation, you name it.

I agree with EEG and fMRI.

About words, they are useful and it's a very useful skill to have.
But they have their limits and are pretty useless in some situations.

Even more, I'll add that they can be a real hindrance for practice.

We have too many words, too much useless fighting, too much of this is this, this is that, I'm this (an arhat, 1,2,3,4,5,6, 7,8,9 zillion path), he's not that, etc. This Analayo article is an example of that.

I'm not saying that there aren't stages, paths, etc and that they are predictable, etc, the same way that diseases are.
I'm saying that words can't convey that much information about them from symthoms or explanation of experiences.

Face to face is a lot better but even then, far from perfect.

There are people that are very good with words, getting what stage other people are, etc. But again, they can't share that wisdom. Anyone who wants to be that good must spend A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT to get the same results.

Not only we can't share experiences, we are very limited in sharing knowledge.

Again, my opinion anyway.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 2:24 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I'm a human being (I think) and I'm really bored and tired of this quarantine.

I also never read Chomsky (I think I did at some point but don't remember that phrase) and his answer also looks like trolling.

The fact that I couldn't get that he was not trolling and trolled back is a perfect example of misunderstanding of words and how useless they are.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 2:24 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
It reminds me of tradition, what you say. Tradere means transmission, and this problem of transmission of mind is very key. This is where traditional forms come in, beyond words. Look, listen and learn. Imitation has this purpose. In my opinion, one of the best ways to transmit mind is art. What do you think ?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 2:25 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
I also never read Chomsky (I think I did at some point but don't remember that phrase) and his answer also looks like trolling.

It's because it is subtle.

Olivier:
I think you misread my intent. This is not a joke, it's a quote from Chomsky. I'm adressing the last part of your comment.

It's about the notions that machines could think or "understand humans". The turing test thing. Chomsky argues that it's as meaningless as asking the question : Can submarines swim ?

No. They don't swim, they are not humans. Similarly, machines cannot think.

The notion of technological singularity is absurd. It's a scary mirage based on scientific materialism, and a logical one at that, if you are a physicalist. It's the same fear as the fear of imagining "the thing in itself", behind the "representations" which our experience supposedly is. If our experience is an emergence from symbolic operations of material structures in our brains, then sure, machines could become AI. But if that were the case, there would be more pressing and scary issues emoticon

To me, it's the vertigo of make-belief. We imagine something and then start believing it is real, and it scares us. Doesn't mean that it will happen.

My opinion is : machines and computers are basically writing systems, that is all. 

The quote is not Chomsky, it's Dijkstra: "Alan M. Turing thought about criteria to settle the question of whether Machines Can Think, a question of which we now know that it is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim"

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra

You're confused about the technological singularity. Even if machines aren't capable of thought or consciousness as we understand them, we know they are capable of solving optimization problems, setting goals and subgoals, and taking actions. A computer, if suitably programmed, could act in ways that threaten life on the planet even if it couldn't think or wasn't self-aware.

As a materialist, I do think our experience emerges from symbolic operations of material structures in our brains - what are the pressing and scary issues about that? It's just no-self.

I misread your intent and I'm sorry.

A machine would have googled the phrase and know exactly your intent (I didn't and thought it was trolling).

Machines are pretty stupid right now. We have a 100, 200 exaflops machine in our heads. Most powerful machines are 1 exaflop. Maybe combined a little more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exascale_computing

"Exascale computing would be a significant achievement in computer engineering, as an exascale computer would have processing power on the order of the estimated processing power of the human brain at the neural level"

Most people think that it will take 100 years for that to happen because they think progress will continue as fast as it is going now 1-2-3-4-5,etc. But it will not, it will keep accelerating, doubling. 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128.

Software is also lacking but progress is being made.

My guess is that it'll be "wow" in 2023-24-25 when the jump from 8-16 to 16-32 happens. They'll change from being "stupid" to being "really smart".

It should be obvious at this point that the world is accelerating (and has been accelerating all along).

It may happen or not.

But history is very consistent on this acceleration pattern.

Another problem is longevity (everyone takes for granted that they will, at some point, die).

I'm only sharing my opinion and maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, this is a meditation forum, and maybe this conversation should happen elsewhere emoticon.

Funny you say that.

Today I was watching "archillect" pictures and found some fascinating.

https://archillect.com/archive

Art is good to trasmit emotions or ideas. Not so good for other things.

About imitation, it's a lot better than words, but also has limits.

J C:
Olivier:
I think you misread my intent. This is not a joke, it's a quote from Chomsky. I'm adressing the last part of your comment.

It's about the notions that machines could think or "understand humans". The turing test thing. Chomsky argues that it's as meaningless as asking the question : Can submarines swim ?

No. They don't swim, they are not humans. Similarly, machines cannot think.

The notion of technological singularity is absurd. It's a scary mirage based on scientific materialism, and a logical one at that, if you are a physicalist. It's the same fear as the fear of imagining "the thing in itself", behind the "representations" which our experience supposedly is. If our experience is an emergence from symbolic operations of material structures in our brains, then sure, machines could become AI. But if that were the case, there would be more pressing and scary issues emoticon

To me, it's the vertigo of make-belief. We imagine something and then start believing it is real, and it scares us. Doesn't mean that it will happen.

My opinion is : machines and computers are basically writing systems, that is all. 

The quote is not Chomsky, it's Dijkstra: "Alan M. Turing thought about criteria to settle the question of whether Machines Can Think, a question of which we now know that it is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim"

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra

You're confused about the technological singularity. Even if machines aren't capable of thought or consciousness as we understand them, we know they are capable of solving optimization problems, setting goals and subgoals, and taking actions. A computer, if suitably programmed, could act in ways that threaten life on the planet even if it couldn't think or wasn't self-aware.

As a materialist, I do think our experience emerges from symbolic operations of material structures in our brains - what are the pressing and scary issues about that? It's just no-self.

Oh, Chomsky did not give his source then emoticon
The technological singularity, then, has already happened : look at covid 19, look at the atomic bomb. Not technology ? Think twice.

If you have to program a computer so that it acts in a destructive way, it's not the computer acting. It's you. It's like those music composing algorithms they've come up with. There's a human behind that...

I think if you're a materialist, you haven't understood the teachings on not-self very deeply. Do you know madhyamika philosophy ? Not-self is also a matter of ontology, of neither real nor not realness of things, and an epistemological statement of ultimately radical unknowability. It also has very simple but earth shatteringly profound ways of showing that the notion of matter is incoherent. Which is of course aligned with contemporary physics !

Representationalist epistemologies are silly. It's magical thinking desguising as logic. Nothing against magic, of course. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 3:06 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Funny you say that.

Today I was watching "archillect" pictures and found some fascinating.

https://archillect.com/archive

Art is good to trasmit emotions or ideas. Not so good for other things.

About imitation, it's a lot better than words, but also has limits.
Oh, Scarlett Johansson ! <3

Perhaps we should send this one to analayo archillect.com/281748

Olivier:
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Funny you say that.

Today I was watching "archillect" pictures and found some fascinating.

https://archillect.com/archive

Art is good to trasmit emotions or ideas. Not so good for other things.

About imitation, it's a lot better than words, but also has limits.
Oh, Scarlett Johansson ! <3

Perhaps we should send this one to analayo archillect.com/281748
Jajajaja. Like I said I'm really bored and tired of this quarantine.

I usually don't post here (don't consider it useful). I do read from time to time.

What will happen will happen regardless of what you or I think.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I'll stop now emoticon.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 3:44 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Misunderstandings happen !

Cheers Ernest, good luck with the lockdown.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/11/20 9:08 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
One important point that Analayo "neglected" to mention in his article, and that I don't think has been raised in this discussion so far, is that Daniel's claim of arahantship is not just something he makes up and that his teachers disputed. As he says in the section "Vimuttimagga, The Path of Freedom" of MCTB2, his 4th path was confirmed by Sayada U Pandita Jr, his teacher during that retreat. So it is not just Daniel's definition of arahantship that Analayo disputes; it is that of the Mahasi school. The fact that Minfulness agreed to publish such a poor work of sectarian propaganda is troubling from an academic point of view and reflects extremely badly on them.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 7:20 PM as a reply to Pierre Zakarauskas.
Yes. Thanks for noticing.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/7/20 11:16 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Thank you Pierre for pointing out that vital point about recognition by the Mahasi lineage, and BA's failure to call them out if he takes issue with it. He might be undermining the "lineage" of many of his own supporters. It undermines his whole argument.

It always makes me sad to see respected Dharma professionals going out of their way to prove themselves more small-minded and petty than the average person. For years this constant bursting of my adulation balloons discouraged me from doing the kind of practice that would have moved me farther along myself. Getting to know you folks here has reminded me that looking to others for inspiration can quickly lead to lazy practice. My own encounter earlier this year with Bhikkhu Analayo's hands-off revenue-centric online teaching model had already moved me to appreciate the books from afar without focusing on the man, much as I have done with Culadasa, Sogyal, and so many others before him. I'd like to see the IMS teachers subject to the same kind of intellectual scrutiny Daniel has fielded so ably over the years.

Why would somebody renounce the world only to repeat the same pathetic turf wars for something so utterly bereft of value? I don't think the precept against lying includes any loopholes for deceit through omission, intentional misdirection, or baldfaced duplicity. Not worthy of respect. The lower the stakes, the bigger the fireworks, as the academia saw goes.

What I love about this community is the willingness to look at the facts on their own merits. The integrity speaks for itself, as does the weak tea "scholarship" of Bhikkhu Analayo. The man clearly needs therapy.

Why do teachers consistently fail to ask themselves what kind of example they are setting for those who would follow them?

Love you Daniel. Give 'em both bodhisattva barrels.

xoj

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/8/20 12:39 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
I'm a human being (I think) and I'm really bored and tired of this quarantine.

I also never read Chomsky (I think I did at some point but don't remember that phrase) and his answer also looks like trolling.

The fact that I couldn't get that he was not trolling and trolled back is a perfect example of misunderstanding of words and how useless they are.

I think it is to your credit that you responded more or less instantaneously when you realized you had missed Olivier's intent, and responded with humility and humor. 

Seeing this trolling everywhere would come natural to one in despair over half-intelligent floods of bots taking over the fucking world. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that the bots running things know shit.

I think you are way beyond bored and in danger of despair. Words are not useless to human beings. There is, as the Dharma suggests, Right Speech. It is worth striving for and aspiring to.

love, tim

emoticon

Tim Farrington
Why is the Buddha's legacy still so incredibly fruitful in its
myriad forms throughout the world, so vibrant and lively to this day?
It's worth really exploring this claim. As always, whenever you look into a particular religion it becomes very hard to find objective reporting. It tends to fall into two camps 1) those inside what want to put the best face on the institution, and 2) those outside that want to tear it down. Because religion is so tied to nationalism, the rhetoric gets turned up 1000-fold... 

But that said, it's pretty clear that buddhism has some very serious problems like all religions. The monastaries we imagine rarely exist in
reality. The dogma gets co-opted for social or nationalistic purposes. It's often used to keep masses of people in their place instead of making strong and independent individuals. And there is a lot of deceptional marketing about the teaching and the perfections of  monks/nuns... And cruelty is found in the treatment of novices, monks/nuns, lay people... it's actually really sad the more you look into it. Nothing unique to buddhism, it's there in all institutions.

But the point is buddism hasn't been immune from corruption. It's really fascinating stuff when you really start exploring it,
so I recommend going down the rabbit hole with a critical mind. It will be depressing to see that buddhism isn't immune to the sh*tshow of other religions,. . .


I think it is probably easier for someone whose eastern loop (which so many young westerners craving contemplative/spiritual authenticity,
concluding that our native traditions are bankrupt husks, have been taking since the 1950s at least in great numbers, and greater numbers constantly, it seems) led him back to his root religion, which for me is via John of the Cross and the Cllud of Unknowing, into the heart of actual Roman Catholic prayer life, suppressed and thwarted though it be, in the living vein. The religion itself is so appalling that the ongoing humiliation of knowing that if i say i’m still a Catholic I will be thought idiotic by most of the very people I know are doing the best work on the planet right now (the maturing eastern routers, basically) is educational in itself, as far as the toxicity of human institutions in general and my dear Mother Church in specific.

I am also an American, lol. So having my birth karma/dharma’s naked emperor’s ass flapping in the breeze, the failed wardrobe pretty much seen by all, is not unfamiliar to me. But I was able to make this turn in part because when I left the MUktananda ashram in Oakland, CA, where i had my first serious dark night in 1983-84 and discovered not Kashmir Shaivite texts or Dharma texts in looking for real help, but John of the Cross, who has this dark night shit nailed tight and is dead on throughout, the Zen Center across the Bay was going through the very public scandal of Baker Roshi and his indiscretions, and a month after i left Oaklnd ashram, a couple of doozy Muktananda scandals (money, physical abuse, and sex, basically) hit the public in Whole Earth Review.

At that point i could say, spiritual institutions run by humans will inevitably be all fucked up and corrupt, better to stick with appalling
one bred into my bones and viscera from before birth, where at least i don’t need a stupid costume, a new name, and a second language. 
 
but you'll come out the otherside with a deeper appreciation of how relentless samsara/sin is and how we really do need to work diligently on our own practice to loosen the bindings of our delusions.  

Your own gentle practice advice to people in dire straits convinces me of the depth of your knowledge of the crucial dark night, the reality of
suffering, the fruit of humility and surrender. You can speak realistically to people of “loosening” ties and bindings. I was one who had to have his shit flat out burned away by every fire of hell, so resistant was i to the truth of my (non)being. The sure knowledge of faith, in darkness and secure, beyond all help, especially self-help: this is the fruit ultima of the nights. To know it is grace, and impossible, obviously. But it turns out that a mustard seed of it actually will do the job. Then it is all, “I believe, Lord; help Thou my unbelief.”
Translations may differ, lol, and mileage may vary.

 Hopefully it also creates a sense of urgency and responsibility.  

Rather than driving one insane, you are saying? Are you SAYING I’M CRAZY? THEY TOLD YOU, DIDN’T THEY? It came in through your teeth, didn’t it? IT CAME IN THROUGH YOUR TEETH, URGENT CODED, DIDN'T IT?!

Urgency and responsibility, yes, indeed, Sri Shargrol.  

(Did you know that you are known in certain circles as Shagrol Of Course, because of what everyone says when they quote you? “From Shargrol, of course.” )

Things won't improve unless we see the shadow side clearly and work to shine light on it -- without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

This baby is my life. Ain’t nobody throwing this baby out on my watch, unless they throw me out first. Fuck those motherfuckers who think it’s all bathwater, poor jerks. That’s a sad sad view of this existence. I’ve suspected it often enough myself. Five minutes ago, actually. But that nothingness just keeps producing, somehow: something, not nothing, ongoing fucking miracle, this goddamn baby, worth all tender care.

thanks for this.

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/8/20 5:58 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Does Analayo offer any convincing evidence (replicated, controlled, double blind studies) that his own brand of practice works as advertised? Or that enlightenment as he defines it is a real thing?

Obviously people are going to discuss what they think the good or bad points of practices are, but what is the point of making a formal academic style accusation of someone else being deluded if he can't demonstrate with academic rigor that his own form of buddhist practice works as advertised and is not itself a form of mass hysteria?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/8/20 8:23 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Right speech is worth striving for. Enlightment, paths are worth striving for.
This things are amazing (morality, concentration and wisdom) and I wouldn't hesitate recommending doing what one can to get them.

What I'm saying is that there is no way to "guarantee" them or share what one did or got with other people.

You tell me there is something Daniel can do to prove or convince Analayo that he's 4 path (or to anyone for that matter). Or if you've done "right speech" for a year, you feel amazing, and you want other people to do it.
How can you convince others of that?

Even if someone gets 4th path, how can he convince everyone that he got it?

So, you get 4th path, perfect morality or really good concentration. People who are near you notice (and benefit). But the moment you want to teach or form an institution or expand in some way you face basic problems that humanity hasn't solved yet (we've been trying long enough for me to consider that there is no solution to this problem). Look at the depressing history of buddhism.

And then there are people (like me emoticon) that troll or only criticize things.
At some point you have to compromise (maybe like Goenka does???) in order for things to not go out of control as you expand.

This post is about Analayo's saying that Daniel is not 4 path. But there are posts in the Dho saying the same thing. There are post about other people saying that other people are or are not 4 path.
Posts saying that some state is worth or not worth attaining.

My personal experience is that some things are worth attaining. But there is no way I can convince too many people of that. Even if I do convince them and they attain it, how am I sure that they attained the same thing that I did???? How can we convince others if we, as a group are not 100% sure???
Even more, in any group, decisions have to be made, and then differences in details of attainment will arise.

Again, you tell me there is something Daniel can do to "prove" that he has 4 path to Analayo, other than arguing in a useless fight with words (that wont convince him).

Words are REALLY USELESS to convince Analayo of Daniel 4 path.
Even me, who is 99% sure Daniel is 4th path, he can't do or say anything to get that last 1%.

Even if Analayo makes a public post admitting that Daniel is 100% 4 path, how can you know if he is not lying, or not sure 100% inside
Most people do agree with words because there is not nothing at stake, but when decisions have to be made........

It is ironic that we talk of Right Speech in a post that is mostly fighting or arguing emoticon.

I'm not the one that wrote Analayo's article, or talked about buddhism depressing history...... This whole thing is not on me.

And that is exactly my point.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/8/20 9:12 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Sure, but in that line of reasoning, can you prove to me 100% that you are not a zombie with no experience but acting like a human ????
He he.

There's this book by italian author Luigi Pirandello : Uno, nessuno e cento mile, One, no one, and one hundred thousand, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One,_No_One_and_One_Hundred_Thousand

I
t's based on the same kind of thinking ; the narrator, Moscarda, realizes that there are things everybody knows about him that he had never known (for example, a certain face he makes when talking). Or, the fact that he has a special thng going on with his hair at the back of his head, which no one had ever told him about in his fourty years of existence. He is deeply disturbed by this and starts investigating this difference in "identities", in mental images, in social images ; soon, he comes to realize that it is the same with every single thing that people think they know about everyone else and themselves and the world : we all have highly individual images of the world and these are virtually incommunicable, and in fact, it's impossible to know whether we are ever talking about the same thing.

His own wife, as he sees her, has nothing to do with his wife the way she sees herself or the way others see her. Conversely, the person that his wife sees is not the same as the one he himself sees, and in fact, when they make love, his wife is not making love with HIM, but with the image of him that she has ! HA ! Every time they get together in bed, there are in fact FOUR people or more having sex with one another.

He starts being jealous of this other Moscarda guy that his wife has married emoticonemoticonemoticon

And that is the beginning of a slow process of dissolution of the sense of there being any communication possible at all or any meaning to anything ever.... Which does find a resolution.

It's incredibly smart and funny, I highly recommend it.

Edit : Actually, if someone has read it - SPOILER ALERT ! - do you think that the ending describes some attainment, perhaps stream entry, perhaps higher ? It seems to me that it could be "third path". I wonder what Analayo would think.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/9/20 11:16 AM as a reply to Pierre Zakarauskas.
Pierre Zakarauskas:
 As he says in the section "Vimuttimagga, The Path of Freedom" of MCTB2, his 4th path was confirmed by Sayada U Pandita Jr, his teacher during that retreat. 
Independent confirmation of this point will be an inevitable front in this battle. It's already being dicussed on the Frank Yang reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/gz2i37/insight_frank_yang_mahasi_practitioner_just/


Jim Smith:
Does Analayo offer any convincing evidence (replicated, controlled, double blind studies) that his own brand of practice works as advertised? Or that enlightenment as he defines it is a real thing?

Obviously people are going to discuss what they think the good or bad points of practices are, but what is the point of making a formal academic style accusation of someone else being deluded if he can't demonstrate with academic rigor that his own form of buddhist practice works as advertised and is not itself a form of mass hysteria?

The Bikkhu argues that Arahants must have completely eradicated lust, anger and delusion. It is interesting that he not only takes the words of Daniel Ingram out of context, but he also takes the words of Uncle Sid out of context. The terms he quotes of lust, anger and delusion are highly simplified, and do not fully represent the deeper dharma of dependent origination and the burning that leads to becoming. I would advise the Bikkhu to study the third noble truth in much greater detail, to better understand the difference between physical urges and the entwining of a sense of self within those urges. On this point, a study of the life of Drukpa Kunley would be edifying for the Bikkhu, as would deeper study of the role of 'lust' and 'hatred' in dependent origination, as would contemplation that those who have crossed over to the other side no longer need to follow the eightfold path.

The Bikkhu may also wish to consider whether somebody must be an Arahant (by his definition) in order to cross over to the other side. I remind the Bikkhu of the destination.

Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.
When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
For himself through his own wisdom,
Then he is freed from form and formless.
Freed from pleasure and from pain


The goal of the noble eightfold path is not to gain approval from monks.The goal of the noble eightfold path is not to eradicate certain behaviours. Rather, the goal is to reach the other side of the river where you are freed from stress because you have eradicated delusion, and you are no longer bound to the burning that leads to becoming.The Bikkhu should consider that, if he is unable to judge and discriminate between different sayings of the Buddha, and their relative application in different contexts, then he does not yet fully understand them.

If the Bikkhu reads the text I have written here, he should closely study his reaction to these words.

Ehipassiko!

And call me whatever you want. Call me Ishmael, if you like. emoticon

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 1:18 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Here is another reason I think Analayo should stick to shoring up the dubious roots of his own tradition first rather than attacking other people:

https://www.dhammasukha.org/ven-bhante-vimalaramsi.html
Bhante Vimalaramsi is an American monk who was ordained in Northern Thailand in 1986 at the age of 40. He left the USA to seek awakening through meditation in the early 80's and decided to let go of all of his material possessions. Before this starting in 1974 he engaged in Vipassana courses in California and even lived and worked at a meditation center in San Jose, California to 1977.

Bhante Vimalaramsi has studied with many famous teachers in Asia. Among them are Venerable U Pandita, U Lakkhana, U Silananda, U Janaka, U Dhammananda, U Dhammapia and he met Mahasi Sayadaw. He further studied with The Mingun Sayadaw, who had memorized the entire Tripitaka and Sayadaw U Thatilla. Other teachers he spent longer periods of time with were the late Most Ven K Sri Dhammananda, Venerable Punnaji, Ajahn Yanitra, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Cha Lee, and Ajahn Santititho.

Bhante practiced Vipassana very intensely his first 20 years under an American teacher and in Burma, under U Pandita and U Janaka. Finally around 1990 he was told that he had achieved the endpoint of the practice, as it was taught by the Sayadaws, and now he should go teach. He didn't feel comfortable that he had really found the end of suffering. He felt he did not have the true personality change that awakening should bring, even after going through the 16 levels of Insight or knowledges, as outlined by Mahasi Sayadaw in Progress of Insight.

Changing Direction
From 1991 to 2000 he dedicated himself to "direct experience through study of the suttas and meditation practice". At first he stayed with K. Sri Dhammananda in Malaysia and taught Metta meditation. Then he had a real change in direction with his meeting of a Sri Lankan senior monk, Bhante Punnaji, also in Malaysia. His advice was to ‘study the suttas directly and to let go of relying on commentaries like the Visuddhi Magga'. Specifically he said, ‘Read only the suttas, then practice'. This was very significant because the commentaries were influencing how he was seeing the entirety of the Dhamma, at the time. It was suggested to put them aside while he studied the suttas as a standalone system. Nanavira in the early sixties, suggested this and then Stephen Batchelor also talked about just using only the suttas in his book "A Buddhist Atheist".

When Bhante began to do this, he discovered first hand, the interwoven nature of the Teachings. In each sutta he found the elements of the 4 Noble Truths, the 8-Fold Path, and the impersonal process of Dependent Origination. Dependent Origination or Paticcasamupada is the core of the Buddha's teachings. He realized that the word sutta literally meant "thread" and that the threads together, created a finely woven cloth, whereas, one single thread does not equal a cloth! Through his own objective first hand experience, the 8-Fold Path began to come alive. When he realized the secret of the teachings was on his doorstep he took the Majjhima Nikaya to a cave in Thailand and spent 3 months, living with a cobra as company, reading and then practicing just what the suttas said. In very little time, he said, he had gone deeper in his meditation, than ever before. What started as two weeks to study suttas turned into three months of deep practice. Out of this was born TWIM or Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation completely based on the suttas in the Majjhima Nikaya. He found the Jhanas had an entirely different explanation and experience. Nibbana was possible!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 1:30 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Really confused. What does that have to do with Analayo?

Are you saying you agree or disagree with this "sutta only" approach? To me it sounds very dogmatic and akin to suggesting that a doctor should only use Ancient Greek medical texts and ignore all the progress made in the last 2500 years, as Daniel has argued.

J C:
Really confused. What does that have to do with Analayo?

Are you saying you agree or disagree with this "sutta only" approach? To me it sounds very dogmatic and akin to suggesting that a doctor should only use Ancient Greek medical texts and ignore all the progress made in the last 2500 years, as Daniel has argued.
I allow the commentaries may be an improvement on sutta only approach (I don't have an opinion on it) but I also firmly believe that has not been demonstrated convincingly. And "improvement" could mean a lot of things - maybe they are better for something different. But I don't think following the commentaries is "bad". 

The gist of the point I am trying to make is that it is hypocritical and extremely unconvincing for someone who's tradition stands on unsure footing to criticize someone else's teachings.

It seems to me that Analayo is accusing Daniel and his followers of 1) suffering from mass hysteria and 2) not following the commentaries.

In my first comment I explained that Analayo has no good evidence that he and his followers are not suffering from mass hysteria either. There is no good "scientific" evidence that any form of enlightenment is a real thing. In the second comment I showed that a qualified expert, Bhante V., does not believe that the commentaries are genuine Buddhism.

I am not trying to take down Therevada Buddhism, I am just saying Analayo has no authority to criticize anyone.

We are all working with fuzzy data, personal acounts, anecdotes, subjective experiences, ancient texts in obscure languages that use technical terms for which there is no western equivalent. We don't even know with certainty if the versions of the sutras we have today accurately reflect what Buddha said. We are all doing the best we can to find our way on the path. I tend to agree with Analayo on the point about mass hysteria but I apply it on a wider scope. (I held my tongue until now for the same reasons I believe Analayo should have.) I don't think there is a way to make a convincing academic level argument because there is really no good "scientific" foundation for any of Buddhism. What is the point of someone with with body lice taunting someone else for having cooties? It belongs in the school yard where puerile vendettas are waged, not an academic style paper trying to mimic genuine scholarship.

Here I have more information on the criticisms of the commentaries by a student of Bhante V.

The Path to Nibbana
David C Johnson
https://www.thepathtonibbana.com/

Buddhist commentaries that were written about his teachings that came along long after he had died, like the Vissudhi Magga, started to split apait practices, fundamentally discriminating insight and concentration (vipassand and samatha) into different techniques whereas the suttas called for them to be "yoked together."

...
Again, jhana never was supposed to mean "absorption." It means a collected state or a level of understanding in mental development. However, as emphasis shifted away from the Buddha's actual teachings as described in the suttas, to the commentaries like the Vissudhi Magga, the word jhana was more commonly used to describe the state of one-pointed concentration.
...
"The Vissudhi Magga was written by Venerable Buddhaghosa Acariya in the fifth century, one thousand years after the Buddha died. Buddhaghosa was asked by his teacher to go to Sri Lanka and translate the commentaries written in Sinhalese back into the Pali language for a readable translation.

"Venerable Buddhaghosa also had the task of bringing four different sects of Buddhism together so all of the different sects would stop arguing. He was a very good student of the Pali language, a true scholar, but he didn't study the suttas. He didn't practice meditation himself. Before he became a Buddhist monk, he was a Sanskrit scholar who had memorized all the Vedas, the ancient Brahmin texts.

"Unfortunately, because the author wasn't a practitioner of meditation, he relied heavily on what was in other commentaries for his information about how to do the meditation. He mistakenly divided and pulled apart the Buddha's teaching into two separate types of practice: Concentration or Samatha and Insight or Vipassana. The suttas will always talk about them being yoked together.
...
This is the influence of the commentaries like the Vissudhi Magga. The Vissudhi Magga has included many practices that are not in the suttas. This conflict should cause us to question which one is right. Look to the Satipat(hana Sulta as a place to start

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 3:12 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I don't understand why you're saying his tradition stands on unsure footing. You just mean other traditions disagree?


That article by David Johnson has numerous errors:


There's no evidence that my hero Buddhaghosa didn't study the sutras or practice meditation, and that seems unlikely to me.

The fact that the Visuddhimagga adds practices that aren't in the suttas is not any kind of "conflict" - it's development.

The suttas clearly discuss the jhanas as absorptions.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 6:13 AM as a reply to Pierre Zakarauskas.
Pierre Zakarauskas:
....Daniel's claim of arahantship is not just something he makes up and that his teachers disputed. As he says in the section "Vimuttimagga, The Path of Freedom" of MCTB2, his 4th path was confirmed by Sayada U Pandita Jr, his teacher during that retreat. So it is not just Daniel's definition of arahantship that Analayo disputes; it is that of the Mahasi school....

When I read the relevant chapter on MCTB2 I became really confused with this statement/fact. I've never been to Myanmar or met any monk from this lineage, but AFAIK we 're talking about a traditional Theravadin Buddhist lineage, so I always thought that they followed the traditional 4th path / 10 fetters model, and that U Pandita Jr should base his confirmation on that.

On the other hand, the most interesting part of MCTB2 for me was the chapter where Daniel Ingran deconstructed all these traditional models, including the 10-fetter one.

So my confusion was and remains: under which model did U Pandita Jr confirm D. Ingram's 4th path?


P.S. I feel that I need to clarify that this is an honest question and not based on suspicion/ill-will. My positioning on the PoI map is so low that I cannot even imagine having the slightest opinion about someone else's 4th path.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 4:20 AM as a reply to ahtrahddis.
So one interesting point is that Buddhaghosa was an anagami.  How then could he write criteria for evaluating an Aarahant?

Anagamis suffering from the fetter of ego are the source of much spiritual confusion and aggression in all religions.  In my view.   emoticon

Vladimir: coming back your PS.  At the end of the day, it all comes back to the suttas, in my opinion. I think that the POI is an alternative (or recreation) of techniques that were more or less lost.  But as you got up the POI beyond first path, it all starts to merge with the techniques in the sattipathana sutta, although as a kind of modern transliteration.  The original stuff in the sutta is hard to understand these days. I don't know the details of the Mahasi doctrine at the higher levels, but everything I have seen suggests to me it was about the suttas baby, and quite consistent with the early doctrines. The Buddha laid it out, for those with eyes to see. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 6:23 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
So one interesting point is that Buddhaghosa was an anagami.  How then could he write criteria for evaluating an Aarahant?

Dude, just read through this topic - since when did being anything stop anyone from having an opinion on someone else's attainments?

emoticon

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 1:15 PM as a reply to ahtrahddis.
The 10-fetter model doesn't have to be totally abandoned - it can be corrected/reinterpreted to refer to losing fundamental attraction and aversion.

I tend to think that the stuff about losing negative emotions was just a mistranslation anyway. Whenever you read something about losing anger, hatred, ill-will, just think "fundamental aversion" instead.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 1:17 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
So one interesting point is that Buddhaghosa was an anagami.  How then could he write criteria for evaluating an Aarahant?

Anagamis suffering from the fetter of ego are the source of much spiritual confusion and aggression in all religions.  In my view.   emoticon

Vladimir: coming back your PS.  At the end of the day, it all comes back to the suttas, in my opinion. I think that the POI is an alternative (or recreation) of techniques that were more or less lost.  But as you got up the POI beyond first path, it all starts to merge with the techniques in the sattipathana sutta, although as a kind of modern transliteration.  The original stuff in the sutta is hard to understand these days. I don't know the details of the Mahasi doctrine at the higher levels, but everything I have seen suggests to me it was about the suttas baby, and quite consistent with the early doctrines. The Buddha laid it out, for those with eyes to see. 

Why do you think Buddhaghosa was an anagami? Do you have a source for that? From everything I've read, he was an arahat.

For what it's worth, Daniel Ingram was an anagami when he wrote most of what became MCTB.

Daniel has said a few times that in one of the manuscripts of Visuddhimagga it's signed by anagami in Buddhaghosa's name.

Culadasa has said a few times that Buddhaghosa was not a practitioner and just a scholar, and he would write down what other practitioners would told him. I don't know what is his source for this.

J C:
Not two, not one:
So one interesting point is that Buddhaghosa was an anagami.  How then could he write criteria for evaluating an Aarahant?

Anagamis suffering from the fetter of ego are the source of much spiritual confusion and aggression in all religions.  In my view.   emoticon

Vladimir: coming back your PS.  At the end of the day, it all comes back to the suttas, in my opinion. I think that the POI is an alternative (or recreation) of techniques that were more or less lost.  But as you got up the POI beyond first path, it all starts to merge with the techniques in the sattipathana sutta, although as a kind of modern transliteration.  The original stuff in the sutta is hard to understand these days. I don't know the details of the Mahasi doctrine at the higher levels, but everything I have seen suggests to me it was about the suttas baby, and quite consistent with the early doctrines. The Buddha laid it out, for those with eyes to see. 

Why do you think Buddhaghosa was an anagami? Do you have a source for that? From everything I've read, he was an arahat.

For what it's worth, Daniel Ingram was an anagami when he wrote most of what became MCTB.

Buddhaghosa says so himself in the postscript to the Vishudimagga.  Here are the words (in translation) that indicate he was definitely not an Arahant, by his own account.

By the performance of such merit
As has been gained by me through this
And any other still in hand
So may I in my next becoming
Behold the joys of Távatiísá,
Glad in the qualities of virtue
And unattached to sense desires.
By having reached the first fruition,
And having in my last life seen
Metteyya,Lord of Sages,
Highest Of persons in the World, and
Helper Delighting in all beings’ welfare,
And heard that Holy One proclaim
The Teaching of the Noble Dhamma,
May I grace the Victor’s Dispensation
By realizing its highest fruit.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 1:43 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
So one interesting point is that Buddhaghosa was an anagami.  How then could he write criteria for evaluating an Aarahant?

Dude, just read through this topic - since when did being anything stop anyone from having an opinion on someone else's attainments?

emoticon
Haha.  As usual you are completely right.

J C:
The 10-fetter model doesn't have to be totally abandoned - it can be corrected/reinterpreted to refer to losing fundamental attraction and aversion.

I tend to think that the stuff about losing negative emotions was just a mistranslation anyway. Whenever you read something about losing anger, hatred, ill-will, just think "fundamental aversion" instead.

Yes I think you are mostly right JC.  I think the fourth and fifth fetters are more about non-binding to physical emotions rather than eradication of these uprisings.  But also, I suspect some confusion arises because there are moments of great calm on the path, and if you are a monastic this calm might be cultuvated and continued for a long period of time, and mistaken for an end-state rather than a stage.

And of course the suttas a full the Buddha getting somewhat angry. I recall one sutta when he talks at length to Ananda about what to do when a buddha arises in the world and it all boils down to "Stop arguing and shut up and listen."

I do of course recall listening to Culadasa saying that his guide for assessing peoples attainments was the ten fetter model, and he found it complete accurate etc etc.  And we all know what happened next!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/10/20 2:12 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
That postscript was not actually by him; it was added later.

Hi J C,

How would you differentiate fundamental attraction and fundamental aversion from just attraction and aversion?

Ben V.:
Hi J C,

How would you differentiate fundamental attraction and fundamental aversion from just attraction and aversion?

I can recommend an excellent book on that subject - Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha.

I'm not an arahat yet, though I hope to be very soon. As I understand it, an arahat still feels pain or anger and still experiences these sensations as unpleasant, and still feels desire and pleasure and experiences these sensations as pleasant, but sees and accepts them all as they are, taking up only as much space as they take up. They are not experienced as something happening to "you" that "you" could avoid or alter, since "you" no longer suffer from the delusion of having free will - it's all just a movie playing, and you're just along for the ride.

The Buddha talked about a man shot by two arrows. The first, the unavoidable pain and desires of life, is regular attraction and aversion, and the second is all the additional crap we add on, making it more than it is.

So pain and emotions, and the suffering they bring, is inevitable. But the additional suffering caused by dualistic misperception can be overcome by becoming an arahat. As a biological organism, an arahat still wants pleasure and hates pain, but all that is ok and experienced as it is.

MCTB says all this much better.

Great. Thanks for the clear explanations.

I read MCTB a few years ago. Will take a look at it again.

Just wanted to add one other thing - there are parts of the suttas that support this accurate view. There are other parts that promote an inaccurate and life-denying view, claiming some form of perfection for arahats. The suttas are internally inconsistent on this point.

Analayo's article selectively chooses parts of the suttas that favor his view, and then uses them to attack Daniel, claiming he must be wrong since part of the suttas disagree.

Just wanted to add one other thing - there are parts of the suttas that support this accurate view. There are other parts that promote an inaccurate and life-denying view, claiming some form of perfection for arahats. The suttas are internally inconsistent on this point.

Well said!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/13/20 7:05 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
In the abstract Analayo says:
Daniel Ingram shows how a forceful form of mindfulness combined with high-speed mental noting can result in the construction of meditative experiences to accord with expectations.

The more I think about this the more I am convinced it is not a bug, it is a feature, and I don't believe there is any special effect due to rapid noting, it is inherent in meditation when you are doing it for a purpose. The natural state of human consciousness is mass hysteria, why not harness it for something beneficial?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/13/20 11:41 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
In the abstract Analayo says:
Daniel Ingram shows how a forceful form of mindfulness combined with high-speed mental noting can result in the construction of meditative experiences to accord with expectations.

The more I think about this the more I am convinced it is not a bug, it is a feature, and I don't believe there is any special effect due to rapid noting, it is inherent in meditation when you are doing it for a purpose. The natural state of human consciousness is mass hysteria, why not harness it for something beneficial?

I see, Jim, that you are carrying on a lively conversation with yourself here. I suppose that kind of masturbatory discourse comes naturally to someone with his head so far up his own ass.

If you really believe the natural state of human consciousness is mass hysteria, why don't you just be a good herd animal and run from this place screaming?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/13/20 11:39 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Chris Marti:
So one interesting point is that Buddhaghosa was an anagami.  How then could he write criteria for evaluating an Aarahant?

Dude, just read through this topic - since when did being anything stop anyone from having an opinion on someone else's attainments?

emoticon
Haha.  As usual you are completely right.
Wait a minute . . . Are you guys saying that, um, ---?  naw, naw, it couldn't be.

Are you saying that unqualified opinionation occurs on this pristine forum's threads?

Fuck this shit. I'm outta here.

love, tim

p.s. I want my money back. Or, I want the money back that you would have charged if you had the gall to charge like pretty much every other piece of shit selling their unqualified opinion on the dharma on this fucking planet.

Maybe i'm a little, uh, triggered. But once i realized that unqiualified opinionation was so rife, my mind just took off on me there.

my bad. i'm yellow carding myself.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/14/20 12:05 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
On Monday an article appeared in the journal Mindfulness by Bhikkhy Analayo, who is a very strictly orthodox Theravada monk with impressive textual and linguistic skills and a bit of an agenda, as you will see if you read the article.

It does live behind a pay wall, and is probably not worth the $39 if you are only casually interested in such topics. If you have an academic position, hopefully your institution will provide access.

To put it gently, it is flattering neither to me nor to those who view the meditation maps and insight stages as many here do. In fact, it is one of the more aggressive attempts at a takedown I have seen in an academic context in a while. While not at all surprising from a certain point of view, given what one finds in MCTB1/2, and perhaps even surprising it took this long, it is relatively surprising to find it in a journal that not only strives for a high degree of scientific and ethical integrity, but also that I sometimes am asked to review for.

I have a good group that will help me and those named in it to deal with it with some sort of skillful response(s).

While something of a hit piece, I believe it does actually create the opportunity to discuss a large number of important clinical and scientific questions, as well as the relationships between things like clinical Mindfulness and Orthodox Buddhism, among other things. It also will allow for an opportunity to bring light to issues generally dear to the DhO's heart as I understand it.

May all our actions help more than they harm.
I propose a simple first-sort on who gets to make their scrupulous little critiques on Daniel's work in the Buddha-fields, much simpler than "very strictly orthodox Theravada monk with impressive textual and linguistic skills" or whatever:

let the critique be by someone who is not currently making money from teaching or purveying the Dharma. Most of these hit peices or whatever are written by people with deeply vested interests in sustaining our current vast spirituo-industrial complex of stream-entry-factories, cranking out replicable, certified horseshit achievements at a rate of speed appropriate to their rates for being their at all. Did I say, "invested"? Let them fucking divest from their profit-making farces before they fucking say a fucking word about someone's who has never done anything with the dharma but translate it into contemporary terms, and have some fun with that, for free, like Gautama. Like Jesus. Like the real fucking thing.

It's such an easy criterion, and it eliminates all manner of shit from the clogged system. Daniel is too polite polite and interested in civilized discourse to say it, but the "civilized discourse" itself is a fraud, if conducted with frauds and self-serving hypocrites.

Follow the money, if you wish--- it points straight away from the truth. Makes it easy for the people with the begging bowls to rule out that direction, as a sort of side effect of the main sort.

p.s. Of course, the people with begging bowls can't even afford to read this fucking article in the first place! It costs $39 just to sit at the table of this fucking hypocrites' forum of an "academic" journal. So fuck that too, you fucking snot-ball hoity-toits of "Buddhism", you so-called "conservatives," conserving your own lucrative privileged discourse realms, trying to fucking charge me to read your fucking muck in the first place. Good thing i can smell you from so far away. It smells just like . . . no, not napalm in the morning, what is that whiff i sense? Ah, yes, that's it: Bullshit.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/14/20 2:29 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
J C:
Not two, not one:
So one interesting point is that Buddhaghosa was an anagami.  How then could he write criteria for evaluating an Aarahant?

Anagamis suffering from the fetter of ego are the source of much spiritual confusion and aggression in all religions.  In my view.   emoticon

Vladimir: coming back your PS.  At the end of the day, it all comes back to the suttas, in my opinion. I think that the POI is an alternative (or recreation) of techniques that were more or less lost.  But as you got up the POI beyond first path, it all starts to merge with the techniques in the sattipathana sutta, although as a kind of modern transliteration.  The original stuff in the sutta is hard to understand these days. I don't know the details of the Mahasi doctrine at the higher levels, but everything I have seen suggests to me it was about the suttas baby, and quite consistent with the early doctrines. The Buddha laid it out, for those with eyes to see. 

Why do you think Buddhaghosa was an anagami? Do you have a source for that? From everything I've read, he was an arahat.

For what it's worth, Daniel Ingram was an anagami when he wrote most of what became MCTB.

Buddhaghosa says so himself in the postscript to the Vishudimagga.  Here are the words (in translation) that indicate he was definitely not an Arahant, by his own account.

By the performance of such merit
As has been gained by me through this
And any other still in hand
So may I in my next becoming
Behold the joys of Távatiísá,
Glad in the qualities of virtue
And unattached to sense desires.
By having reached the first fruition,
And having in my last life seen
Metteyya,Lord of Sages,
Highest Of persons in the World, and
Helper Delighting in all beings’ welfare,
And heard that Holy One proclaim
The Teaching of the Noble Dhamma,
May I grace the Victor’s Dispensation
By realizing its highest fruit.
Hold on.. Wikipedia already explain the issue:
"The section of text from the Visuddhimagga mentioned above exists only in the Sinhalese texts, not in the original Pali, and could therefore have been added by someone other than the author. In the final words of the conclusion of the original Pali text he writes: "This Path of Purification was made by the elder who is ... an ornament in the lineage of the elders who dwell in the Great Monastery and who are shining lights in the lineage of elders with unblemished enlightenment ..." Here, he clearly implies that he did accomplish the goal of enlightenment using the Theravada practice outlined in his manual. It would not be logical to assume that the section following it, about Metteyya Buddha, was in fact written by him, since it contradicts his previous statement"

Anyway, if we really believe Buddhaghosa was short of being an Arhat, we should remember they did use the fetter model. An Anagami in the fetter model is unattainable for the perspective of many pragmatic buddhists. MCTB 4th path rougthly equates with Sotappana or Sakadagami in the ten fetter model.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/15/20 4:18 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:


This is orthodox Buddhism.

Delusion is one of the three poisions (attachment, aversion, and delusion).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.068.than.html

AN 3.68 PTS: A i 199
Titthiya Sutta: Sectarians
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2005
...
The Blessed One said, "Monks, if you are asked by wanderers of other sects, 'Friends, there are these three qualities. Which three? Passion, aversion, & delusion. These are the three qualities. Now what is the difference, what the distinction, what the distinguishing factor among these three qualities?' — when thus asked, you should answer those wanderers of other sects in this way, 'Friends, passion carries little blame and is slow to fade. Aversion carries great blame and is quick to fade. Delusion carries great blame and is slow to fade.
...

"[Then if they ask,] 'But what, friends, is the reason, what the cause, why unarisen delusion arises, or arisen delusion tends to growth & abundance?' 'Inappropriate attention,' it should be said. 'For one who attends inappropriately, unarisen delusion arises and arisen delusion tends to growth & abundance...'
...




https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.050-099.than.html
Iti 50-99 PTS: Iti 44-98 Vagga.sutta: Iti 3.1-50
Itivuttaka: The Group of Threes
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2001


This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Anyone whose passion is unabandoned, whose aversion is unabandoned, whose delusion is unabandoned is said to have gone over to Mara's camp, has come under Mara's power. The Evil One can do with that person as he likes. But anyone whose passion is abandoned, whose aversion is abandoned, whose delusion is abandoned is said not to have gone over to Mara's camp, has thrown off Mara's power. With that person, the Evil One cannot do as he likes."



https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki/Moha#Explanation
Moha (Sanskrit, Pali; Tibetan phonetic: timuk) is a mental factor commonly translated as "ignorance", "delusion", "bewilderment", "stupidity", etc. In the Theravada tradition, moha is considered to be a fundamental ignorance of the nature of reality. In the Mahayana tradition, moha is defined as a sub-category of this fundamental ignorance, that is a dumbfounded state of not knowing what to do–a state of being deeply clouded, in which the mind is not clear.
...

Nina van Gorkom explains:

When there is moha we live in darkness. It was the Buddha's great compassion which moved him to teach people Dhamma. Dhamma is the light which can dispel darkness. If we do not know Dhamma we are ignorant about the world, about ourselves; we are ignorant about good and ill deeds and their results; we are ignorant about the eradication of defilements.[3]

The Atthasālinī (Book II, Part IX, Ch.1, 249) states about moha:

'Delusion' (moha) has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration or the function of covering the intrinsic nature of the object; the manifestation of being opposed to right conduct or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise attention; and it should be regarded as the root of all akusala....[3]
Nina van Gorkom explains:

There are many degrees of moha. When we study Dhamma we become less ignorant about realities; we understand more about paramattha Dhammas, about kamma and vipaka. However, this does not mean that we can already eradicate moha. Moha cannot be eradicated merely by thinking about the truth; it can only be eradicated by developing the wisdom which knows 'the world in the ariyan sense': eye-sense, visible object, seeing-consciousness, ear-sense, sound, hearing-consciousness, and all realities appearing through the six doors.[3]

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/16/20 4:05 AM as a reply to Jake Frankfurt Middenhall.
Jake Frankfurt Middenhall:


"This Path of Purification was made by the elder who is ... an ornament in the lineage of the elders who dwell in the Great Monastery and who are shining lights in the lineage of elders with unblemished enlightenment ..." 

Anyway, if we really believe Buddhaghosa was short of being an Arhat, we should remember they did use the fetter model. An Anagami in the fetter model is unattainable for the perspective of many pragmatic buddhists. MCTB 4th path rougthly equates with Sotappana or Sakadagami in the ten fetter model.


Hmm - sitting in heaven after death? Sure sounds like a non-returner to me! And yes I suspect these things are mostly written by anagami, including your other example. But it doesn't mean they stay anagami.  Anyway, it doesn't really matter ... probably a bit of a red herring truth be told. Sorry!

I would just say that I think the ten fetter model is mostly right, except that some descriptions are simplified, especially the fourth and fifth fetter. And some (especially monastics) tend to confuse the path with the destination when it comes to these fetters. As a test of this idea, I would ask you to consider, do you think the Aarahant feels hungry and desires and perhaps even enjoys food? If so, is that not an instance of the fourth fetter under the strict defintion?  And if not, how is sex so different is treated as a physical drive with non binding to an object of craving? And I'm sure I've read a sutta where the Buddha says its ok for arahants to get drunk - but not for any other bikkhus!.

To me, the no-sex aspect of the fourth fetter says more about the soceity interpreting the suttas, than anything else. Once again, Drukpa Kunely is a kind of exemplar of this point of view. Don't know how the strict Theravadan monastics explain that, or Yab-yam practies, or a host of other things done by enlightened buddhists in other traditions!

Just my opinion


emoticon

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/18/20 2:47 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
emoticon
Malcolm

Once again, Drukpa Kunely is a kind of exemplar of this point of view.

https://www.theculturemap.com/drukpa-kunley-penis-bhutan/

cf. above, "The Legendary Penis of Drukpa Kunley"

thank you Not 2 Not 3 Not 4 etc. . . Oh, Right, Oops, Not 1

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/18/20 10:53 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
emoticon
Malcolm

Once again, Drukpa Kunely is a kind of exemplar of this point of view.

https://www.theculturemap.com/drukpa-kunley-penis-bhutan/

cf. above, "The Legendary Penis of Drukpa Kunley"

thank you Not 2 Not 3 Not 4 etc. . . Oh, Right, Oops, Not 1

love, tim
And that's the sanitised version. He claimed to have transmitted enlightenment to thousands of women with his flaming thunderbolt of wisdom.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/19/20 2:56 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Tim Farrington:
emoticon
Malcolm

Once again, Drukpa Kunely is a kind of exemplar of this point of view.

https://www.theculturemap.com/drukpa-kunley-penis-bhutan/

cf. above, "The Legendary Penis of Drukpa Kunley"

thank you Not 2 Not 3 Not 4 etc. . . Oh, Right, Oops, Not 1

love, tim
And that's the sanitised version. He claimed to have transmitted enlightenment to thousands of women with his flaming thunderbolt of wisdom.

malcolm, you got a link to the down and dirty version, amigo? I got a big old flaming thunderbolt of a jones to get the real scoop here.

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/19/20 5:21 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Well I recommend some of his poetry, such as:

I am happy that I am a free Yogi.
So I grow more and more into my inner happiness.
I can have sex with many women,
because I help them to go the path of enlightenment.
Outwardly I'm a fool
and inwardly I live with a clear spiritual system.
Outwardly, I enjoy wine, women and song.
And inwardly I work for the benefit of all beings.
Outwardly, I live for my pleasure
and inwardly I do everything in the right moment.
Outwardly I am a ragged beggar
and inwardly a blissful Buddha.

But also 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drukpa_Kunley

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/03/the-flaming-thunderbolt-of-wisdom-a-penis-over-every-doorway-simon-hollington/


RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
6/19/20 5:44 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Well I recommend some of his poetry, such as:

I am happy that I am a free Yogi.
So I grow more and more into my inner happiness.
I can have sex with many women,
because I help them to go the path of enlightenment.
Outwardly I'm a fool
and inwardly I live with a clear spiritual system.
Outwardly, I enjoy wine, women and song.
And inwardly I work for the benefit of all beings.
Outwardly, I live for my pleasure
and inwardly I do everything in the right moment.
Outwardly I am a ragged beggar
and inwardly a blissful Buddha.

But also 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drukpa_Kunley

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/03/the-flaming-thunderbolt-of-wisdom-a-penis-over-every-doorway-simon-hollington/


Malcolm, my friend, this poem is scandalous all right, scandalously lame. I suspect somebody edited the fuck out of it. This guy is just a blabbermouth, as I read it. If there was a real Drukpa, he's puking at the shit passing for his work these days.

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
8/5/20 2:36 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
emoticon

I did finally manage to read Analayo's hit piece in its entirety for free (thank you  Mark Boolootian). He is a brilliant scholar, but priggish and smug, as masterful scholars can get, in their safe environments surrounded by awed students and peers. His take on Daniel's work is useful mostly because it is a relatively thorough compendium of standard orthodox theravadan objections. He doesn't answer most of the issues he raises, he just implies that Daniel is a presumptuous little snit. But he is forced to quote MCBT at some length to do this, lol. So some of Daniel's best lightning-bolt mushroom factor quotes get into the mix for free.

I had a hard time taking this whole tempest in a theravadan trade journal teapot seriously, until i realized the stakes. MCBT is fresh scripture, like fresh lava from the Kilauea volcana, growing the Buddhist island and exploding when it hits the sea. The landscape looks black and dead to those on the island accustomed to their greenery and lush Hawaiian mature ecosystems (let's bracket environmental devastation for the moment), but that smoking black rock, freshly hardened, with pot holes opening into liquid fiery stone depths, is what the island looks like, fresh born. In a few hundreds years, Analayo will be a footnote to a footnote, and MCBT will have its own sectarians, MCBT1 and McBT2 and variations. But to reply to him now, as Daniel is working on, hopefully with a crew of scholars with very strong stomachs and the patience to parse bullshit, is a worthy venture. I don'[t really have the stomach or the buddhist scholarly chops, though i may tear Analayo a new asshole at some point ovcer his snotball take on John of the Cross, lol.

Daniel said it best, on the overview, in a passage immediately following onje of the quotes about Buddhism's failings over 2500 years that got Analayo so exrecised in the first place:
For the societal growth process of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis to take place, some poor fool has to be willing to state the antithesis part and trust the synthesis to the organic process that follows and, in this case, the poor fool is me, and the person in whom I am putting my trust to synthesize well is you.
 
Daniel Ingram, MCBT2, 332

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
8/5/20 5:39 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Dear Tim, another lovely contribution from you. You will pardon me but I am increasingly finding that I have nothing to say anymore. So by my saying that, I hope that you can read into it ... everything.

Malcolm

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
8/6/20 12:36 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Dear Tim, another lovely contribution from you. You will pardon me but I am increasingly finding that I have nothing to say anymore. So by my saying that, I hope that you can read into it ... everything.

Malcolm

Malcolm, please forgive me for any offense I have caused with my characteristic foul-mouthed rashness.

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
8/6/20 2:30 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Not two, not one:
Dear Tim, another lovely contribution from you. You will pardon me but I am increasingly finding that I have nothing to say anymore. So by my saying that, I hope that you can read into it ... everything.

Malcolm

Malcolm, please forgive me for any offense I have caused with my characteristic foul-mouthed rashness.

love, tim

No no, I meant it seriously.  No forgiveness needed as no offense has been taken. emoticon

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
8/6/20 2:31 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Okay, if no one else will I'll say it to you two - get a room!

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
8/6/20 4:03 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Okay, if no one else will I'll say it to you two - get a room!
You keep telling people that lately! 

I have access to it and happy to mail it to whomever needs it. Also, you might want to download it from https://sci-hub.tw/ simply searching for the DOI: 10.1007/s12671-020-01389-4 or by the title.

Cheers, Daniel.

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
8/6/20 11:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Okay, if no one else will I'll say it to you two - get a room!


Don't think i haven't tried. Malcolm won't have me, Chris, and it's breaking my heart. 

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
9/15/20 3:56 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I usually tend towards being a completionist and read through the entirety of threads that interest me (within reason …if things get too long winded or stray off target I’ll bail) but in this case I was outlandishly busy when this bomb was dropped so I haven’t read through the entire thread.
Daniel: a few times in recent months I attempted to locate your hinted at wordy and juicy rebuttal, but no dice. Does it exist? If so where? Or is it still being cooked?



PS: One day I'll post my recollections of my first long retreat, a two-month orthodox SE Asian Theravadan deal. One evening the head monk broke with the standard Dharma talk protocol. In its place he hosted ... an intervention. At one point during the proceedings he mentioned the name: Daniel Ingram. Laughs erupted from various points in the room and knowing smiles formed on several yogis' faces. The bottom line: Vipassana is the exclusive property of Theravadan Monastics who are the only qualified instructors. Period. Woe is he who's meditation has been influenced by Western laypeople usurpers, who misunderstand the practices and are unqualified to teach. Accept no substitutes. Do the real thing if you wish to get enlightened otherwise you're wasting your time (and this monk's time). To be fair, the poor monk described enduring practice interviews where yogis' were reporting based on hertz rates.

This was in 2014. In the wake of crossing the A&P at my first (Goenka) retreat in 2013 my life interests had pretty much been reduced solely to meditation, which I was doing a lot of while reading voraciously trying to make sense of my experiences. After wading through tomes of sentimental rubbish and cryptic bullshit it was the directness and clarity of the writings of Kenneth Folk, Bill Hamilton, and Daniel Ingram that had the greatest impact on me and were instrumental in my better understanding this path I was on.  (No, I wasn't one of the yogis talking in Hz, lol).  Nonetheless, I was surprised to hear Daniel's name mentioned in a major orthodox Theravadan monastery. I was just as surprised by how many yogis were familair with Daniel. At the time it became clear to me the impact that MCTB was having in the Buddhist world. It's now become no less than the 'Shot Heard Round the (Theravadan) World'. I'm not in the least surprised that Analayo (whose scholarship I've respected and enjoyed) decided to take on Daniel. Daniel is wildly influential and can no longer be simply ignored. Like many here, I find Analayo's effort both unprofessional and weak: it strikes me as driven by both pettiness and desperation. (Sending compassion and metta in Analayo's direction).  Its effect is to reduce Analayo's own authority in my eyes. He'll need to do much better than a cheap smear job peppered with a few valid points if he intends to knock Daniel off his pedestal. (Sorry Daniel, I know you state you don't like being on one, but for better or worse you are so get used to it. ; )

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
9/15/20 2:30 AM as a reply to Monsoon Frog.
Wow, very sad to hear about the idiocy of the Theravada monks. What was the "intervention" about?

The article makes Analayo look like a fool. Sending hatred at him hehe. May he suffer!!

I really don't understand why any monk would have a problem with reporting the frequency at which you are observing or experiencing sensations. I really don't understand how you'd report your experience otherwise. Please explain what you mean about enduring hertz rates in reports?

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
9/15/20 3:40 AM as a reply to Monsoon Frog.
Monsoon Frog:
I usually tend towards being a completionist and read through the entirety of threads that interest me (within reason …if things get too long winded or stray off target I’ll bail) but in this case I was outlandishly busy when this bomb was dropped so I haven’t read through the entire thread.
Daniel: a few times in recent months I attempted to locate your hinted at wordy and juicy rebuttal, but no dice. Does it exist? If so where? Or is it still being cooked?

PS: One day I'll post my recollections of my first long retreat, a two-month orthodox SE Asian Theravadan deal. One evening the head monk broke with the standard Dharma talk protocol. In its place he hosted ... an intervention. At one point during the proceedings he mentioned the name: Daniel Ingram. Laughs erupted from various points in the room and knowing smiles formed on several yogis' faces. The bottom line: Vipassana is the exclusive property of Theravadan Monastics who are the only qualified instructors. Period. Woe is he who's meditation has been influenced by Western laypeople usurpers, who haven't a clue what they are doing and are unqualified to teach Accept no substitutes. Do the real thing if you wish to get enlightened otherwise you're wasting your time (and this monk's time). To be fair, the poor monk described enduring practice interviews where yogis' were reporting based on hertz rates.
This was in 2014. In the wake of crossing the A&P at my first (Goenka) retreat in 2013 my life interests had pretty much been reduced solely to meditation, which I was doing a lot of while reading voraciously trying to make sense of my experiences. After wading through tomes of sentimental rubbish and cryptic bullshit it was the directness and clarity of the writings of Kenneth Folk, Bill Hamilton, and Daniel Ingram that had the greatest impact on me and were instrumental in my better understanding this path I was on.  (No, I wasn't one of the yogis talking in Hz, lol).  Nonetheless, I was surprised to hear Daniel's name mentioned in a major orthodox Theravadan monastery. I was just as surprised by how many yogis were familair with Daniel. At that time it was clear to me the impact that MCTB was having in the Buddhist world. It's no less than the 'Shot Heard Round the (Theravadan) World'. I'm not in the least surprised that Analayo (whose scholarship I've respected and enjoyed) decided to take on Daniel. Daniel is wildly influential and can no longer be simply ignored. Like many here, I find Analayo's effort both unprofessional and weak: it strikes me as driven by both pettiness and desperation. (Sending compassion and metta in Analayo's direction).  Its effect is to reduce Analayo's own authority in my eyes. He'll need to do much better than a cheap smear job peppered with a few valid points if he intends to knock Daniel off his pedestal. (Sorry Daniel, I know you state you don't like being on one, but for better or worse, you are ; )

dear Frog,

Thanks for this lovely post and the great story about that heretical loose cannon theravdan wannabe arahant D. Ingram. I'm with you in having found MCTB both refreshing and energizing, and right on, and one of the few texts I feel I can rely on with the deepest trust, lightning bolt chapters and all. And Daniel has done nothing to make me feel otherwise, even as he has become the kind of lightning rod he inevitably is as such a prominent and distinct voice on "the scene." He has handled the misreadings, often seemingly willful, and flat out incomprehension graciously and with equanimity, in many instances where I would have just told people to fuck off. He has a masterful way of telling people to fuck off, it seems. I think that is good for Buddhism, and for the practicing community in general, his patience and lucidity under the circumstances. In 500 years, I think MCTB will be read as one of the notable refreshingments and updatings of the theravadan lineage, and analayo's relatively cheap shots will be seen for the hidebound academic blindered readings they strike me as. For what my opinion is worth on this stuff, lol.

I haven't heard of any reply published anywhere yet, though Daniel has said above on this thread that it is in the works, and like you I would love to see it when it does appear.

One good thing I did get from Analayo's article, on a completely different track, was that he said a couple of things about John of the Cross that pissed me off, and I went to the book he was citing as his source for his critique, "Christianity Looks East: Comparing the Spiritualities of John of the Cross and Buddhaghosa," by Peter Feldmeier, a Jesuit priest fom Minnesota. Feldmeier does a pretty good job of getting some basics on the table, and Analayo's snottiness about John of the Cross is not to be found in his study. So I have Analayo's snottiness to thank for something that actually turned me to Buddhaghosa and the Visuddhimagga in a deeper way.

love, tim

RE: Analayo's article about meditation maps, others, and me in Mindfulness
Answer
9/15/20 8:03 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Thanks for all your interesting and often supportive comments.

Yes, we are still working on one of the reponses, the one that will hopefully be published in Mindfulness, and that one has to land first. I am joined by some esteemed colleagues in this project, all of whom are seriously busy academics, so, to get concensus and draw from the range of talents and perspectives takes time, unfortunately, but the seemingly endless process of revision and compromise and discussion and more revision makes the draft better with each cycle.

In its final form, it is unlikely to satisfy the way my responses to the likes of Dr. Shane Lindsay, Parletre, and some of the SNB kids have, as, being as we intend to publish it in Mindfulness, as that is a radically different audience and cultural context, with a relatively different purpose and set of stylistic expectations. The typical laser-like fire will be significantly rechanneled into trying to win hearts, minds, scientists, and research dollars.

Still, hopefully it will work a bit of magic there and help push the field forward. It is mostly a call to do the hard, long, expensive, tedious science required to actually get some functional awareness of the experinces we have come to take for granted and live with in ourselves and each other into the clinical mainstream in some form they can accept in that very different cultural context. It also asks hard questions about ethics in scientic publications, the role of orthodoxy and the relationship between orthodoxy and reformist/fusion traditions, the validity of ancient texts in contemporary clinical contexts, etc.

Thanks for your continued interest.