RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Hector 5/19/20 9:34 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Hector 5/13/20 11:33 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Chris M 5/13/20 12:34 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/14/20 4:59 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 9:37 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 9:49 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 9:00 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/13/20 11:33 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/14/20 4:01 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Not two, not one 5/13/20 11:32 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/14/20 1:19 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Not two, not one 5/14/20 5:04 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/14/20 5:40 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Stirling Campbell 5/14/20 8:38 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/15/20 8:24 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Chris M 5/15/20 8:08 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Not two, not one 5/15/20 1:39 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/15/20 3:37 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Not two, not one 5/15/20 3:46 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/15/20 11:37 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:27 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/19/20 8:31 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 1:00 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:18 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:11 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/15/20 8:27 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Stirling Campbell 5/15/20 6:44 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/18/20 6:01 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/18/20 6:08 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/18/20 6:44 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/18/20 9:07 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 11:08 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:22 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:16 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Stirling Campbell 5/18/20 7:12 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 11:19 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Stirling Campbell 5/20/20 5:17 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 10:15 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:12 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Stirling Campbell 5/18/20 7:21 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 11:47 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Stirling Campbell 5/20/20 5:20 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 10:30 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 11:42 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/22/20 1:28 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/23/20 3:27 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/23/20 3:29 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/25/20 9:44 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/23/20 11:49 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/23/20 4:54 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 9:41 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/14/20 4:49 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/14/20 2:38 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/14/20 4:29 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/16/20 12:27 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/16/20 1:41 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/16/20 2:39 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:29 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/18/20 5:03 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/19/20 6:08 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/19/20 6:26 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/19/20 6:25 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 12:15 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 4:45 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/20/20 8:06 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 1:32 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Chris M 5/20/20 3:02 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Chris M 5/21/20 3:28 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/20/20 4:57 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/21/20 10:08 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/21/20 11:40 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Chris M 5/21/20 12:38 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Papa Che Dusko 5/21/20 12:58 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Steph . 5/21/20 1:02 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Papa Che Dusko 5/21/20 3:07 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/21/20 4:51 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Steph . 5/21/20 5:48 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 11:30 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 11:24 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 11:19 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 11:17 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/21/20 4:56 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Chris M 5/22/20 6:30 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 11:39 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 11:09 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/25/20 8:42 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/25/20 11:39 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/26/20 6:09 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/30/20 3:02 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/22/20 7:21 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 10:06 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 1:23 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:35 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:38 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/18/20 6:09 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 9:17 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/19/20 7:39 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 12:20 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 12:23 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 9:44 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/14/20 8:24 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/14/20 12:09 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/16/20 2:11 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/16/20 2:46 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/17/20 9:47 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/17/20 10:51 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/17/20 11:15 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/17/20 11:28 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/18/20 6:41 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/19/20 8:42 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 1:19 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/23/20 2:45 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:58 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/18/20 6:30 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 11:04 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 11:10 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery hae1en 5/18/20 5:12 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/20/20 11:05 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:45 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:50 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 10:54 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/18/20 11:15 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/17/20 1:43 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/17/20 7:44 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/17/20 7:45 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/17/20 11:31 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/17/20 10:48 PM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Tim Farrington 5/18/20 5:22 AM
RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/22/20 10:31 AM
Hector, modified 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 9:34 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 11:07 AM

Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Rebooting the thread on Kasinas, Hypnagogia and Nimittas at the request of hae1en.

I'll summarize it in the table below. I come from a technical background so I'll use specific terms to describe what I am seeing.
You can google them to see pictures of them - Laplacian of Gaussian, Gabor filter, Gabor wavelet, photoreceptor bleaching,
lateral inhibition, variational auto encoder, convolutional encoder/decoder, interpretability of convolutional neural networks.

It typically looks like the column under "sleep state". I use the foot feels of walking meditation to stay concentrated past the hypnagogia
and sometimes vipasanna the "murk". Last night I tried amplifying color instead of form like I normally do and got
different results, like colored lightning spirals and spreading flowers accompanied with pleasurable body feels
but didn't progress to the other stages since it was a new method to me.

I also regularly alternate methods, so I don't stick to a stage or progression and since I am not starting
from the  same methods I might be seeing stuff that might or might not be the same as that experienced
in kasinas. I also found the first time doing fire kasina, I didn't really need it to sustain the nimitta since
I was already used to looking at "the murk" from other methods (mathematics, vipassana using computer vision 
conceptual models of visual perception under computer  vision CV column on the left, lucid dreaming and drum journeying).

This is all very subjective so posted mostly so that people know there's more than one way to experience
all the fund weird stuff. Past the narrative stage there is another one
that my watch calls deep sleep. I used a smart watch to measure the sessions and found that the REM
sleeps did correspond to my lucid dream and semi lucid dream states. 1 and 4 were hypnagogic and hypnopompic
and I presume 2 and 3 were rebound ones from deep sleep.

Crude correspondence map of CV/CG/Lucid dreaming/meditation 
CVCGSleep statespecular highlight kasinawild guesspossible eeg?
photonsgeometry + texturelooking at roomlooking at lightphysical worldalpha
ccd bucket overflowray castclose eyes + afterimagered dotphotoreceptor bleachingbeta
Laplacian of Gaussianunsharp maskafter image fadesblack dotlateral inhibition
3x3 convGabor waveletspeckleswavy black dotedges generatingtheta
max pool 1radially symmetric basishypnagogic tunnelsacred geometryparts generating
YUV compressionwireframe rendererwireframe dreams3rd screenobjects generating
decoder not convergedSGI crimson opengllow chroma dreams
CPPN networkprocedural texturesscene become autonomousbackground generating
word2vecprocedural gamesnarrative becomes autonomousstory generatingdelta
super resolutionfilm noir filterUltra 4k HD, low chroma4th screenwild guessgamma?
forgot to remove camera capultra black pixelsunconscious sleepsleep yogadeep sleep
Hector, modified 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 11:33 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 11:33 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Here's a fun thought experiment I'll call meditation upon perception using a variational auto encoder
See "https://worldmodels.github.io/" for visuals

While looking at something, imagine, what if perception was happening like a convolutional variational auto encoder with the following structure:
encoder for eye vision, encoder for mental imagery, shared decoder for both that can generate mental imagery that is also
connected to the input for the encoder for mental imagery.

typical encoder:
light enters the eye -> decomposed to dots and edges -> decomposed to gabor like stuff ->
parts -> object representation. A decoder follows the stages backwards to make imagery.

also imagine a 'mental image' counterpart where imaginary light enters imaginary eye and is also
bi-directional, that is, an auto encoder. mental image -> mental parts -> mental object -> mental parts -> mental image

While separating the perception into these conceptual stages I was able to classify how I felt when a dog barked at me
and I jumped as : dog barks -> image of dog -> feel of dog -> idea that dog is an object -> triggering some
kind of presumtions about a dog -> mental image decoder generating image of dog lounging at me -> going through the mental image encoder -> mental object of dog -> responding to that -> realizing it was just a mental object -> suppressing the response.

This was before I read up on vipassana, so was just deducing the principles from the wikipedia entry on vipassana and winging
it using how I build machine perception models. When I subsequently tried wake induced lucid dreaming the stages of passing through the murk felt suspiciously like the stages of the mental decoder .. murk formed of dots, lines, then spirals, then parts, then objects but with additional later stages like background and narrative generation.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 11:33 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 11:33 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Hector:
Rebooting the thread on Kasinas, Hypnagogia and Nimittas at the request of hae1en.

Just a side note - I'm coming from this practice from a very different route and set of rules and axioms.
I was a charismatic Christian two decades ago and experienced what seems to be called Arising and Passing which
in that tradition is called Revival and recently last year experienced it again via a different route. Since then
I've done a lot more research into the phenomenon and have picked up some more understanding but I'm
arriving at this from several different alternate routes. I'm also counting decades of computer graphics and computer vision
concentrated thinking as 'meditation' for the purposes of generating kasina.

My progression in imagery was - thinking of math for decades -> lucid dreaming arriving with charismatic Christian practices
two decades ago -> 2nd kind of A&P last year -> ok let me investigate this phenomenon, it's disturbing to me,
I don't understand why it is happening suddenly and why is time not linear and why is stuff happening spontaneously
-> investigating Jungian thought on dreams and synchroniticities -> did something for someone using synchronicities who
turned out to be a shaman and taught me drum journeys -> reading up on dream yoga and wake induced lucid dreaming and
fire kasina and realizing that the 'white stuff' in hypnagogia seems to be the same manipulable white stuff -> wanting to know if they are all the same thing and posting my question a few days ago. 

I'll summarize it in the table below. I come from a technical background so I'll use specific terms to describe what I am seeing.
You can google them to see pictures of them - Laplacian of Gaussian, Gabor filter, Gabor wavelet, photoreceptor bleaching,
lateral inhibition, variational auto encoder, convolutional encoder/decoder, interpretability of convolutional neural networks.

I'm more familiar with lucid dreaming and drum journeying that specular highlight kasina which seems to me to correspond up to 3rd screen.
The insight stages come to me in the alternate modes past background generating at the narrative generating stage.
Or sometimes just walking down the street to a dead end.

It typically looks like the column under "sleep state". I use the foot feels of walking meditation to stay concentrated past the hypnagogia
and sometimes vipasanna the "murk". Last night I tried amplifying color instead of form like I normally do and got
different results, like colored lightning spirals and spreading flowers accompanied with pleasurable body feels
but didn't progress to the other stages since it was a new method to me.

I also regularly alternate methods, so I don't stick to a stage or progression and since I am not starting
from the  same methods I might be seeing stuff that might or might not be the same as that experienced
in kasinas. I also found the first time doing fire kasina, I didn't really need it to sustain the nimitta since
I was already used to looking at "the murk" from other methods (mathematics, vipassana using computer vision 
conceptual models of visual perception under computer  vision CV column on the left, lucid dreaming and drum journeying).

I'm also employing two additional instruments "faith" and "grace" from the charismatic Christian tradition.
The first one, trust that something will happen, so proceeding past failure modes and the second one
feels a bit similar to equinamity - not sweating it and trusting in God when it comes to dealing with bad feels or bad imagery.
I also use Jungian dream interview techniques to digest the obtained insights, translating them from
metaphorical language. I'm also not looking for salvation or liberation since in the Christian tradition
you get to use it as an axiom instead of a stage, so I'm not too stressed about experiencing pure nothingness
and don't have feelings of guilt about enjoying dream imagery which in some traditions might be considered a bardo or trap.

This is all very subjective so posted mostly so that people know there's more than one way to experience
all the fund weird stuff. For the ones who believe in nothingness - some stages feel like just watching
yourself fall asleep -- nothing happens and it's all gray. Past the narrative stage there is another one
that my watch calls deep sleep. I used a smart watch to measure the sessions and found that the REM
sleeps did correspond to my lucid dream and semi lucid dream states. 1 and 4 were hypnagogic and hypnopompic
and I presume 2 and 3 were rebound ones from deep sleep.

Crude correspondence map of CV/CG/Lucid dreaming/meditation @eigenhector
CVCGSleep statespecular highlight kasinawild guesspossible eeg?
photonsgeometry + texturelooking at roomlooking at lightphysical worldalpha
ccd bucket overflowray castclose eyes + afterimagered dotphotoreceptor bleachingbeta
Laplacian of Gaussianunsharp maskafter image fadesblack dotlateral inhibition
3x3 convGabor waveletspeckleswavy black dotedges generatingtheta
max pool 1radially symmetric basishypnagogic tunnelsacred geometryparts generating
YUV compressionwireframe rendererwireframe dreams3rd screenobjects generating
decoder not convergedSGI crimson opengllow chroma dreams
CPPN networkprocedural texturesscene become autonomousbackground generating
word2vecprocedural gamesnarrative becomes autonomousstory generatingdelta
super resolutionfilm noir filterUltra 4k HD, low chroma4th screenwild guessgamma?
forgot to remove camera capultra black pixelsunconscious sleepsleep yogadeep sleep


okay!

I was a charismatic Christian two decades ago and experienced what seems to be called Arising and Passing which
in that tradition is called Revival and recently last year experienced it again via a different route. Since then
I've done a lot more research into the phenomenon and have picked up some more understanding but I'm
arriving at this from several different alternate routes.

I have handled snakes, spoken in tongues, and had the flame of the Holy Ghost descend down and blaze away in my crown chakra. In my gtradition, this is called "Wednesday."
I'm also counting decades of computer graphics and computer vision concentrated thinking as 'meditation' for the purposes of generating kasina.

well, obviously.

My progression in imagery was - thinking of math for decades -> lucid dreaming arriving with charismatic Christian practices
two decades ago -> 2nd kind of A&P last year -> ok let me investigate this phenomenon, it's disturbing to me,
I don't understand why it is happening suddenly
 that will do it, all right: the old Divine sink or swim.
and why is time not linear
yup.

and why is stuff happening spontaneously
Amen, and let the chruch say, Amen.

> investigating Jungian thought on dreams and synchroniticities -> did something for someone using synchronicities who
turned out to be a shaman and taught me drum journeys -> reading up on dream yoga and wake induced lucid dreaming and
fire kasina and realizing that the 'white stuff' in hypnagogia seems to be the same manipulable white stuff -> wanting to know if they are all the same thing and posting my question a few days ago. 

I can see why you pulled the thread so quickly, you're a complete fucking nut job, Hector. Welcome to the club here at DhO. Drop by the Bar of Last Resort anytime, but don't tell them Tim sent you, they'll throw your ass out. Otherwise, the drinks are free and the entertainment is literally to die for, until all beings are saved.

love, tim
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 12:34 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 12:34 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 4475 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
While separating the perception into these conceptual stages I was able to classify how I felt when a dog barked at me and I jumped as : dog barks -> image of dog -> feel of dog -> idea that dog is an object -> triggering some
kind of presumtions about a dog -> mental image decoder generating image of dog lounging at me -> going through the mental image encoder -> mental object of dog -> responding to that -> realizing it was just a mental object -> suppressing the response.

This was before I read up on vipassana, so was just deducing the principles from the wikipedia entry on vipassana and winging it using how I build machine perception models.

Hector --  I love this!
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 4:01 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 1:06 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Just for the sake of the continuity (and some links I value) - the thread starts with Linda's log, quoted above and the discussion on tigles, rezzas, pixels and other light-born creatures.

---

Hector:

I am not sure if it's because I work in the field of computer vision, but the visual field for my hypnagogia looks a lot like the progression
from dots and edges (Sobel, Laplacian of Gaussian), wavy dots and lines (Gabor filter family), parts and circular waves,
then recognizable objects, then autonomous scenery and then the autonomous narrative kicks in.


Linda ”Polly Ester":

Interesting. In one of my first fruitions, three images presented themselves rapidly: reality as vibrating strings, as waves, and as particles formed around a black hole. Then everything including myself vanished into the black hole. 

hae1en:

Hi Linda, Hector and Not two, Not one,

Since this is Linda's thread, how about we move the discussion on relationship between hypnagogia, nimittas, lucid dreaming, fire kasina and insight vs concentration work to the thread Hector set up? I couldn't find it though.... 

There are interesting parallels to be described with neuroscience of hallucination. Check out this video summary of Jack Cowan's papers on psychedelics and migraine auras. It basically shows how neural activation wave travels through our visual cortex, with columns coding protoforms (like dots, edges, angles, swings etc.) coming together in a caleidoscopic conscious fractal visions. This mechanism probably underlays all the phenomena we talked about. So it can reflect the movements (or nonmovements) of attention, I would say, Linda. We can activate this wave by willfull concentration whereas psychonauts drop magical substances on the surface of their visual cortex, which we do not need apparently.

Not two, Not one - the hexagonal grid (honeycomb) is called Indra's net in dzogchen and there is a sequence of steps to work with it.

If any of you is interested to exchange more, could you respond in a dedicated thread? Linda, thanks for the hospitality! :-) 
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 11:32 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/13/20 11:32 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 985 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
hae1en:


Not two, Not one - the hexagonal grid (honeycomb) is called Indra's net in dzogchen and there is a sequence of steps to work with it.


Interesting - all I could find from google was metaphorical references to Indra's net.  Can you point me towards the specific Dzogchen resources you mentioned?

Thanks!

Malcolm
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 1:19 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 1:09 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Not two, not one:
hae1en:


Not two, Not one - the hexagonal grid (honeycomb) is called Indra's net in dzogchen and there is a sequence of steps to work with it.


Interesting - all I could find from google was metaphorical references to Indra's net.  Can you point me towards the specific Dzogchen resources you mentioned?

Thanks!

Malcolm

"all" you could find, those pesky metaphorical references. Tsk, tsh, Malcolm, you hard-core specific-resource lasered madman.
 
Here’s a specific technique for you, Not Two, Not One, from my tradition: go out in the wilderness and fast alone for forty days and forty nights (you may accept any sustenance offered by ravens and angels, use careful discernment and beware of crows and demons bearing gifts). Then wake before dawn and find a spiderweb hung with dew. Take your shoes off, for you are standing on holy ground, and sit just west of it, until the light dawns.
 
This technique must be performed only in the wilderness, so that no one is hurt by the shrapnel when your mind explodes.
 


now, Indra's net:


 
 
"Imagine a multidimensional spider's web in the early morning covered with dew drops. And every dew drop contains the reflection of all the other dew drops. And, in each reflected dew drop, the reflections of all the other dew drops in that reflection. And so ad infinitum. That is the Buddhist conception of the universe in an image." –Alan Watts
 
 so far, so imagistic and metaphorical, my bad.
Endless action arises from the mind; from action arises the multifarious world. Having understood that the world's true nature is mind, you display bodies of your own in harmony with the world. Having realized that this world is like a dream, and that all Buddhas are like mere reflections, that all principles are like an echo, you move unimpeded in the world.
from the Avatamsaka sutra
 
turning to Buddhist scriptures, at least, right?
Good Old Wikipedia, chasing down them pesky metaphors and shit:
The Avataṃsaka Sūtra (IASTSanskrit: आवतंसक सूत्र); or the Mahāvaipulya Buddhāvataṃsaka Sūtra (Sanskrit: महावैपुल्य बुद्धावतंसक सूत्र), is one of the most influential Mahāyāna sutras of East Asian Buddhism. The title is rendered in English as Flower Garland Sutra, Flower Adornment Sutra, or Flower Ornament Scripture. It has been called by the translator Thomas Cleary "the most grandiose, the most comprehensive, and the most beautifully arrayed of the Buddhist scriptures." . . .

The Avataṃsaka Sūtra was written in stages, beginning from at least 500 years after the death of the Buddha. One source claims that it is "a very long text composed of a number of originally independent scriptures of diverse provenance, all of which were combined, probably in Central Asia, in the late third or the fourth century CE." Japanese scholars such as Akira Hirakawa and Otake Susumu meanwhile argue that the Sanskrit original was compiled in India from sutras already in circulation which also bore the name "Buddhavatamsaka" . . .

According to Paramārtha, a 6th-century monk from Ujjain in central India, the Avataṃsaka Sūtra is also called the "Bodhisattva Piṭaka." In his translation of the Mahāyānasaṃgrahabhāṣya, there is a reference to the Bodhisattva Piṭaka, which Paramārtha notes is the same as the Avataṃsaka Sūtra in 100,000 lines. Identification of the Avataṃsaka Sūtra as a "Bodhisattva Piṭaka" was also recorded in the colophon of a Chinese manuscript at the Mogao Caves: "Explication of the Ten Stages, entitled Creator of the Wisdom of an Omniscient Being by Degrees, a chapter of the Mahāyāna sūtra Bodhisattvapiṭaka Buddhāvataṃsaka, has ended."
 
Likewise, in book 30:
 
In all atoms of all lands
Buddha enters, each and every one,
Producing miracle displays for sentient beings:
Such is the way of Vairocana....
The techniques of the Buddhas are inconceivable,
All appearing in accord with beings’ minds....
In each atom the Buddhas of all times
Appear, according to inclinations;
While their essential nature neither comes nor goes,
By their vow power they pervade the worlds.
 
Our very Chris Marti was enquiring just yesterday about this book and its flagrant metaphors:
In Gödel, Escher, Bach (1979), Douglas Hofstadter uses Indra's net as a metaphor for the complex interconnected networks formed by relationships between objects in a system—including social networks, the interactions of particles, and the "symbols" that stand for ideas in a brain or intelligent computer.
 
also:
 
In Vermeer's Hat (2007), a history book written by Timothy Brook, the author uses the metaphor:
Buddhism uses a similar image to describe the interconnectedness of all phenomena. It is called Indra's Net. When Indra fashioned the world, he made it as a web, and at every knot in the web is tied a pearl. Everything that exists, or has ever existed, every idea that can be thought about, every datum that is true—every dharma, in the language of Indian philosophy—is a pearl in Indra's net. Not only is every pearl tied to every other pearl by virtue of the web on which they hang, but on the surface of every pearl is reflected every other jewel on the net. Everything that exists in Indra's web implies all else that exists.

and 
Writing in The Spectator, Sarah Burton explains that Brook uses the metaphor, and its interconnectedness,
to help understand the multiplicity of causes and effects producing the way we are and the way we were [...] In the same way, the journeys through Brook's picture-portals intersect with each other, at the same time shedding light on each other.
 
and:
 
In Indra's Net (2014), Rajiv Malhotra uses the image of Indra's net as a metaphor for the profound cosmology and outlook that permeates Hinduism. Indra's Net symbolizes the universe as a web of connections and interdependences [...] I seek to revive it as the foundation for Vedic cosmology and show how it went on to become the central principle of Buddhism, and from there spread into mainstream Western discourse across several disciplines.
 
fucking metaphors fucking up our nice neat practice, fuck this shit.

Has it really never occurred to you that every specific technique IS a metaphor? And so, every metaphor implies any number of techniques. It is the fruitful metaphor of scriptures, a fruit bursting with nothing whatsoever but metaphor seeds for each to cultivate as s/he will, that makes a tradition live. What Daniel did was going back to the sources, grow some of his own, and this home-grown stuff is strong shit. But only an idiot would despise the seed, looking for the fruit.

(edit) "Here is the parable: the sower sows the word." Yes, a parable, worse still than a metaphor ("meta-phor," from the Greek, means literally "to carry over"--- sea of samsara, anyone?). But that's scripture for you. And who's the sower? Jesus Fucking Christ, Malcolm.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 4:49 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector:
reading up on dream yoga and wake induced lucid dreaming and fire kasina and realizing that the 'white stuff' in hypnagogia seems to be the same manipulable white stuff -> 
(...)
It typically looks like the column under "sleep state". I use the foot feels of walking meditation to stay concentrated past the hypnagogia and sometimes vipasanna the "murk". 
(...)
Crude correspondence map of CV/CG/Lucid dreaming/meditation @eigenhector

Hector, this is a super nerdy map! Feels like home. I think it's implicit in your post, just want to directly write that what Hector describes is the same model Jack Cowan's applied to psychodelics in the link I inserted. Let's unpack it quickly:

Visual object recognition in central nervous system:
Light reaching retina.
  • Stage 1 Processing of basic object components, such as color, depth, and form - These are your filters, Hector, right?
  • Stage 2 These basic components are then grouped on the basis of similarity, providing information on distinct edges to the visual form. Subsequently figure-ground segregation is able to take place.
  • Stage 3 The visual representation is matched with structural descriptions in memory. - In various discussions on skandhas some say that before meaning is ascribed by the skandha of perception (sanna), the skandha of form (rupa) is responsible for earlier information processing stages 1-3.
  • Stage 4 Semantic attributes are applied to the visual representation, providing meaning, and thereby recognition. - Some objects are easily recognizable like faces, eyes (evolutionary gift handy when in jungle), even spiders, because there are also full object-specific regions in the brain. This explains why we see them so easily and why some people see them in FK

I wonder what white stuff you refer to and how can you use foot feel while descending into a lucid dream (hypnagogia) - if I got you right, lol :-)

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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 4:59 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
typical encoder:
light enters the eye -> decomposed to dots and edges -> decomposed to gabor like stuff ->
parts -> object representation. A decoder follows the stages backwards to make imagery.

also imagine a 'mental image' counterpart where imaginary light enters imaginary eye and is also
bi-directional, that is, an auto encoder. mental image -> mental parts -> mental object -> mental parts -> mental image

When I subsequently tried wake induced lucid dreaming the stages of passing through the murk felt suspiciously like the stages of the mental decoder .. murk formed of dots, lines, then spirals, then parts, then objects but with additional later stages like background and narrative generation.

Hector, I also try to grasp this sequence :-), great to see you here. And I came up with - less nerdy - but similar conclusions. I also have some more questions:

  • how the world and self continuum is constructed in general :-)
  • how to stabilize and slow down perception so the stages of self-world construction are visible beyond what we normally call perceving vibrations in vipassana, for example when lucidly falling asleep and waking up
  • is sacred geometry and protoforms in hypnagogia a way to see "inside" vibrations - this is a metaphore, but:
  • is there a intermediate state between formed and formless realms (dots, lines, spirals, parts, objects, background etc?)
  • when deconstructing the illusion of pure formless awareness (mirror or substrate consciousness/alayavijnana/true self/one mind) as a final destination and piercing through it to annata/emptiness - is imagery a mark of progress: I noticed that some people on the forum like Linda or Chris Marti, before fruitions saw variations of indra's net or pixaleted tunnels, same with Malcolm
  • is it possible to observe all 12 elements of dependent origination separately
  • how deep the insight has to go with the imagery for it to "click and lock in" (so the psychological effects of "body and mind drop off" linger and become permanent)
  • does one have to see specific imagery, which is a mark of success of this permanent shift (in some spiritual traditions there are)
I will write more on Indra's net (it can be a cobweb with pearls too, Tim) later.
Hector, can you write more on auto-encoder? 
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 5:04 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Thank you Tim, I do agree about metaphor. I believe that our super powerful subconcious speaks to us through metaphor. And in the end, metaphor is all we have. We are an ever evolving web of metaphors.

My interest in Indra's net is not just the metaphor, but also to dig deep into the specifics of the construction of the eye faculty.  Simlar to digging deep into the specifics of the sense of touch.  I think the honeycomb (which we overlay with all sorts of perceptions and sacred geomtery, and metaphor, and is itself a metaphor), may be a deep perception of some base component of the eye faculty.  Digging deep deep deep deep into that sense may help deconstruct reality, just as digging deeply into physical sensations does. So aside from the metahpor, and not to in any way downplay the metahphor, I am wondering whether the honeycomb, or web, provides another perceptual thread dangling from the garment of self, that we can pull and pull to unravel.

Much love

Malcolm
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 5:40 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 5:40 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Not two, not one:
Thank you Tim, I do agree about metaphor. I believe that our super powerful subconcious speaks to us through metaphor. And in the end, metaphor is all we have. We are an ever evolving web of metaphors.


yes
My interest in Indra's net is not just the metaphor, but also to dig deep into the specifics of the construction of the eye faculty.  Similar to digging deep into the specifics of the sense of touch.  I think the honeycomb (which we overlay with all sorts of perceptions and sacred geomtery, and metaphor, and is itself a metaphor), may be a deep perception of some base component of the eye faculty.  Digging deep deep deep deep into that sense may help deconstruct reality, just as digging deeply into physical sensations does. 
yes. and this:

Tear down this house.A hundred thousand new houses can be built from the transparent yellow carnelian buried beneath it, and the only way to get to that is to do the work of demolishing and then digging under the foundations.With that value in hand all the new construction will be done without effort.And anyway, sooner or later this house will fall on its own.  The jewel treasure will be uncovered, but it won't be yours then.  The buried wealth is your pay for doing the demolition, the pick and shovel work.  If you wait and just let it happen, you'd bite your hand and say, "I didn't do as I knew I should have."This is a rented house.  You don't own the deed.You have a lease, and you've set up a little shop, where you barely make a living sewing patches on torn clothing.  Yet only a few feet underneath are two veins, pure red and bright gold carnelian.Quick!Take the pickaxe and pry the foundation.You've got to quit this seamstress work.What does the patch-sewing mean, you ask.  Eating and drinking.  The heavy cloak of the body is always getting torn.  You patch it with food, and other restless ego-satisfactions.Rip up one board from the shop floor and look into the basement. You'll see two glints in the dirt.rumithe house that fear built

rumi has something for everything, lol.like shargrol, maybe.

So aside from the metahpor, and not to in any way downplay the metahphor, I am wondering whether the honeycomb, or web, provides another perceptual thread dangling from the garment of self, that we can pull and pull to unravel.

yes, got it. thank you. a gentle steady clear tug, watching warp and woof dissolve.
Much love

Malcolm


much much
love, tim
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 8:24 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I'm reading this thread one post at a time because I'm currently in a state of finding communication a bit overwhelming. This is very interesting. It is also a bit hard for me to follow because of some technical jargon that I'm not familiar with. Googling the terms, as you suggested, leads me to believing that we are basically seeing the same type of stuff. For me this seems to happen when the murk transforms into imagery, and it's a tell that I treasure, because as a not very visual person I just love it when things happen to the visual field and I can actually see stuff clearly. After images like those described with all those technical terms, art work sacred geometry shows up, in 2D and/or 3D. I have also had sort of a 3D labyrinth of corridors showing up, which if I understand it correctly you have also had. I would suspect that this has to do with how the mind is "coded". 

I can relate to having integrated the hypnagogia into daily life, as I can now have such imagery going on in the midst of for example doing yoga (definitely not on the verge of sleeping while doing that). For me that is mainly colored swirls, often spiraling, and sometimes a centered colored dot that seems to be the embryo for a nimitta rather than what I usually think of as hypnagogic. I believe (but I’m not sure) that it might be useful to separate hypnagogia from a more concentrated state that can lead to absorption. At the same time I do think that hypnagogia can be turned into such a concentrated state, especially after learning to stay awake with it. Earlier in my practice I found the hypnagogic swirls so seductive that they would make me fall asleep and into non-lucid dreaming. Now I can observe them without being drawn into them. I have the hypothesis that the swirling is some kind of representation of subconscious streams in the movements of the mind. A centered dot or sphere, on the other hand, represents a more unified and malleable mind. What do you think of that? 

I don't completely understand your table. What would you say are the overarching names of the two axes of it? Is there a gradual development from one thing to the other on them? Or are they just different categories?

Jung, schamanic drum journeys and dream yoga are all interesting stuff for me, as well as the visual field, so I hope I wilp be able to follow the conversations in this thread despite the language barrier that I think is inevitable when talking about stuff like this. 

I see no contradiction in taking an interest in both nothingness and more archetypical stuff. Do you? What do you mean with nothingness, exactly? Are you referring to formless realms or to cessations or to the emptiness of phenomena or to something else? I'm interested in all of that AND in the archetypical stuff. I find that they fill different purposes. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 12:09 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Hi Linda,
  Re seductive hypnagogic swirls - I'm not sure what it is, it doesn't feel seductive to me?
Until recently, I've mostly just skipped it, it's only with some technqiues that focus on it that
made me realize it was an intermediate state that can be explored as well.
If I want to get to the next stage like lucid dreaming I have to 'walk' past it using
walking meditation or focusing on kinesthetic feeling or 'ride' past it with percussion or imagine past it with visualization.
This other activies distracted me from hypnagogia, so I didn't really notice or have the word for it at the time.
If I look at them I fall into non-lucid sleep as well. Other people
on Youtube can apparently look at them and concetrate enough to see themselves into a lucid dream but I have
to walk past it or active imagine past it e.g. making the white stuff into a bird and following it.

That’s what I meant. I can look at them and concentrate and turn them into something else, such as jhana or lucid dreaming. Earlier I couldn’t do that if I was looking at them.


Stability of dots as a measure of calm? I have no idea, maybe a measure of concentration.

That’s a shamatha technique, yes, and of course it’s optional.


The names of the axes, horizontally would be some kind of metaphor space.
computer vision, computer graphics, lucid dreaming, my limited experience of kasinas and drumming journeys.
The vertical axis is what it looks like and how it feels to me. I'm interested in seeing how people
experience the verticle axis in their tradition and see if the phenomena are similar or not. I think the divergence
in experiences happen after the murk stage. 3rd screen maybe? I don't know the right terms. For me
3rd screen is the narrative is autonomous stage. For me it's not stages but a continuum of experience.
The x-axis is continuous categories - they are different ways of seeing similar things which might or might not be the same.
The y-axis is pretty continuous except for deep sleep, that feels sudden. Sometimes the steps between
the 'stages' might flicker back and forth like murk, image, murk, image then stabilize on one or the other, like
the boundary in a strange attractor. At the same time in the later the stages some things start going to sleep
like verbal thought switches to metaphorical thought. Eventually for me everything goes to sleep but
the generators wake up in proportion. Like vision goes to sleep, then the scenery generator becomes autonomous

Thanks for clarifying!


is nothingness for me? it's potential. not a static zero but a zero sum like two standing waves
cancelling each other out or two opposites cancelling sin(x) + sin(x + pi), more like the yin yang symbol.
In aikido it's like the point of a throw where people match like in tenchi nage - heaven and earth throw.
In mathematics it's the point of zero gradient when doing the method of Lagrange multipliers.
I'm taking the point of view that the next step after void is 'let there be light', similar to how in a
dream you can dissolve/vanish and then reappear, not something I am actively seeking but something
I pass through and feels scary at first but isn't unpleasant when you pass through it. (is this what
you call cessation?)

That makes sense.

No, cessation/fruition is like a restart of the mind during which you have no consciousness whatsoever, but there are demarcated experiences before and after, and when you come back, at least if it’s a path moment, there has been an integration of some perceptual upgrade into your system and now your wiring is changed.


I also think of it as a tangent line to a curve, matching gradients / minimizing impedences to whatever there is
which I guess feels more Tao, matching speeds with the wind,
seeking more elegance than missingness and in these cases
a point in time where things happen to cancel, but because there is motion will eventually uncancel.
In Rumi language I guess it's fana. I think of  it sometimes as shalom - wholeness, like
two jigsaw pieces coming together and nothing separates them.

You might like a 3D model I constructed based on my first cessations/fruitions about a year ago. I’ll paste it in later.


I'm not sure what a formless realm is either. When I encounter one it feels to me that I can't see
what it is but it has a flavor that is just not visual so I just switch to the same walking meditation
foot feels mode and feel my way through it to the next place. Like the algorithm realm is a 'formless realm'.
There's no visual imagery so it feels formless but there's structure there, so not formless like
maximum entropy noise (static on an analog tv), but maybe structured noise (glitches on a digital tv forms square blocks).
I just assume it's formless because I haven't grown the neurons to properly see it yet or it's
some sense mode I haven't developed like smell. What do you call formless realm?

In my own practice I find it most helpful to stick to Daniel's strict definition of the formless reals, that is, the arupa jhanas. The first of them is just boundless bright space and nothing apart from that, no sense of body, no discursive thoughts whatsoever. The second of them is boundless awareness, which means being that boundless bright awareness that was aware of the space, and now even the space has fallen away. The third of them no longer has that bright awareness, as that has fallen away, and yet somehow the nothingness stands out vividly clear. It's because the bright awareness turns to see what it is aware of, and recognizes that there is no object to be aware of. The fourth of them is when even the nothingness falls away, which doesn't make any sense at all until it is encountered. Somehow it is possible to have a distinct experience both of nothingness and of the absense of both nothingness and everything else. 


In any case I wonder if anything past the murk is just unique to each person or if there
are still commonalities, that's the part I'm really curious about. We could both
be in the same city, say Paris, but I will probably see something really different from you.

Since it is all constructs of our minds, I'd say that even the murk is somewhat different, but since our minds share similar characteristics, there are also striking similarities. There are plenty of records of that, as advanced practicioners do exchange experiences and recognize themselves in each other's descriptions.


I read about jhannas and nannas but I have no idea where on my conceptual map they lie and if I have experienced them or not
or if they are some islands deep in the ocean I haven't seen yet.

Okie.

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing!
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 2:38 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector:
The white stuff is what I call Gabor wavelet or Gabor basis, like lego blocks for form.
It makes diffraction gratings and waves, easiest in the start to transform to something similar like birds or butterflies.

The colorful stuff is a different basis function and easier to make into flowers or
ummm ... pleasurable colorful lightning spirals? When you resonate it enough it can actually leak
out to your body and tingle your toes.
Hector, can you find some images from giphy.com or elswhere for some of the notions you use? When googling Gabor there is this nice bearded gentelman popping up, but I don't think he is what you have in mind.

Also, I would like to make sure I understand your sequence and if you had some time a human math-free narrative about your setting/method/steps/goals could be helpful, like: I go to bed/sit in lotus - do vipassana/enter jhana/wake up for WILD - white/colorful stuff appears after/before meaningful hypnagogic imagery - I enter the jhana/lucid dream - in order to examine how the brain works/how to get in touch with God/what is the smallest particle in the universe etc. ;-)
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 4:29 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
You really get such complex stuff? In hypnagogia or during/instead of LD? Or in meditation? How many minutes after take off (after you leave your fully "awake" baseline)? How long does one appearance last before it dissolves into formless screen? What method do you use to form these? Is your original material luminous nimitta (what form) or hypnagogic images or something else? What method do you use for duration? Who is experiencing these images and having fun?

Hope these questions are not too nosy. I promise to write something more personal, as soon I have some more time.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 8:38 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 605 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Not two, not one:

I think the honeycomb (which we overlay with all sorts of perceptions and sacred geomtery, and metaphor, and is itself a metaphor), may be a deep perception of some base component of the eye faculty.  Digging deep deep deep deep into that sense may help deconstruct reality, just as digging deeply into physical sensations does. So aside from the metahpor, and not to in any way downplay the metahphor, I am wondering whether the honeycomb, or web, provides another perceptual thread dangling from the garment of self, that we can pull and pull to unravel.

One of the moments where I knew this board, and Daniel's book were timely was in the section titled "The 3 Doors" where he says:

When the no-self door predominates with suffering as its second aspect, then a very strange thing happens. There may be an image on one side staring back, but even if there isn’t, the universe becomes a toroid (doughnut-shaped), or occasionally a sphere, and the image and this side of the toroid switch places as the toroid universe spins.

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/31-the-three-doors/

This is quite similar to my Stream Entry experience/moment of insight into emptiness only with it the toroid shape had a grid/honeycomb type pattern that was gently traced underneath the toroidal distortion of reality, and it came with a seemingly extraordinarlily deep Indra's Net/Implicate Order (Bohm) seeing of the interconnectedness of all illusory points and the awareness of them reflecting each other's wholeness in each one. 

I have since seen and felt this a few times in a much weaker fashion, generally when nothing special is going on. My teacher has also seen this and believes this is about as far out a swing as you can go still expressing the karma of a "person". My instinct is that this is correct.

I'd be very interested to hear if anyone else has had this experience, or knows something about it.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:24 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Stirling Campbell:
Not two, not one:
I am wondering whether the honeycomb, or web, provides another perceptual thread dangling from the garment of self, that we can pull and pull to unravel.
(...)
This is quite similar to my Stream Entry experience/moment of insight into emptiness only with it the toroid shape had a grid/honeycomb type pattern that was gently traced underneath the toroidal distortion of reality, and it came with a seemingly extraordinarlily deep Indra's Net/Implicate Order (Bohm) seeing of the interconnectedness of all illusory points and the awareness of them reflecting each other's wholeness in each one. (...) My teacher has also seen this and believes this is about as far out a swing as you can go still expressing the karma of a "person". 

So we have a nice collection of a web-like images in various people's experiences. Chris, I hope you don't mind me reposting from your log - wonder if it belongs to the same family: "the fraction of a second image always reminds me afterward of a mandala that you see from the Vajrayana tradition or a series of tiny network nodes connected by tiny threads". 

I remember Linda once mentioned the flower of life. This is Malcolm's honeycomb with small "eyes". Hector has triangles. Anyone else?


My own images have different flavours, shapes, eye sizes, volume, duration and motion. From hectagonal, through square to diamond like. With pearls, knods or drops of light in the intersections or without. Some of them have elemental nature - sculpted on airy or water texture.  The latter ones already have volume and 3d quality to it, like this braid.

After rethinking the thing I'm afraid I don't have that much knowledge to share. My boyfriend used to be dzogchen instructor and we practice together. I can say that evolution of indra's net (how they call it) during samatha meditation can be used as a feedback device on how the progress is hapening. I wouldn't like to give it in, especiallly that it's not my root tradition and I also wouldn't disclose koan answers here. 

But how about we practice with it together and share?

I started with prolonging duration of the appearance. It started with flashes of the network in what I call slides. Seems jhana is stable and suddenly there is this rapid slide with network flash and when jhana is reestablished, it seems that it's energy potential and panoramicity increased. With practice these drifts  - which felt like second-long attention drifts or even momentarily dozing off - turned out to be sources of deeper attentional modes. I read on the forum about similar attention drifts in agnostic's posts and earlier Dream Walker's. 

I learned to perceive the slides and images more clearly: (1) when they finish and jhanic focus returns, (2) after some practice: when they start and finish, (3) then while inside the slide, (4) prolonging their duration, (5) interacting with the net inside the slide, (6) actively searching for the gravitational pull in the hidden jhana structure and provoking slides. 

Naturally then the ability to prolong the duration of the grid increased, also it started to evolve. 
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:08 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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So we have a nice collection of a web-like images in various people's experiences. Chris, I hope you don't mind me reposting from your log - wonder if it belongs to the same family: "the fraction of a second image always reminds me afterward of a mandala that you see from the Vajrayana tradition or a series of tiny network nodes connected by tiny threads". 

No problem! I believe it is indeed in the same family.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:27 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 8:18 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Stirling Campbell:
Not two, not one:
I think the honeycomb (which we overlay with all sorts of perceptions and sacred geomtery, and metaphor, and is itself a metaphor), may be a deep perception of some base component of the eye faculty.  
My teacher has also seen this and believes this is about as far out a swing as you can go still expressing the karma of a "person". 

For the sake of excitement, here is the excerpt not from Tibetan but earlier Indian tradition - Visuddhimaga (Vis. VIII, 213-215) stating that nimittas can have similar shapes:

214. When he does so in this way, the sign soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon's disk or the sun's disk.

We see a web, we see gems in the intersections. We also see a draught - which I think can be a way to describe the gravitation pull in the slide. 

And here, here and here is something from Western tradition, where honeycomb is explained by neuroscience: "something, for example the presence of a drug [or meditation/me], throws the neural network off its equilibrium, kicking into action a snowballing interaction between excitatory and inhibitory neurons, which then stabilises in a stripy or hexagonal pattern of neural activity in V1/visual cortex."

Stirling, how do you understand "expressing karma" here?
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 1:39 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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For me there is another rare experience that has greater separation - maybe ten times the distance, and is more vivd or vision like than the honeycomb.  For me this was a precisely symmetrical star field.  Īn MCTB2 Daniel talked about a field of skulls, which I rightly or wrong recognised as the same phenomena.  I think Linda has reported this too.  Kasina folk might also report a star field? 
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 3:37 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 3:37 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Not two, not one:
a star field? 

Picture?
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Not two, not one, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 3:46 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 3:45 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:
Not two, not one:
a star field? 

Picture?

Like this, but more rectangular (laterally) and not quite as desnse as this picture.

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Stirling Campbell, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 6:44 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 6:43 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:

For the sake of excitement, here is the excerpt not from Tibetan but earlier Indian tradition - Visuddhimaga (Vis. VIII, 213-215) stating that nimittas can have similar shapes:

I would characterize what I observed as being woven into the fabric of everything rather than localized like a nimitta, but that IS interesting.

Stirling, how do you understand "expressing karma" here?

My background is Dzogchen/Zen. My understanding: The eyes (senses) are mirrors of the mind, not windows onto any solid reality. Reality looks to as it does because of your karma.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 11:37 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 11:37 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Not two, not one:
Like this, but more rectangular (laterally) and not quite as desnse as this picture.


I also see it, both in jhanas and in deep formless sleep. Sometimes in 3D. So how can they be formless if there are textures like this in their coating?

Sometimes I think it's the result of doing vipassana on formless realms. That would explain why the patters reveal themselves short of fruitions.

And sometimes the dots - white, blue or rainbow color form a tunnel. 
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 12:27 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 12:27 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
spirals with lightning jags when playing with color, softer spirals when playing with white stuff. It's because I'm bootstrapping off of 0random colored dots for the color playand the black dot for my form play.:
Pretty fast, 1 minute of dots and lines, next minute make it into a ball and then spirals.
Are the colors as saturated as you showed in those YT videos? Or are they blended with black? If you sculpt a bird is it HD 3D photorealistic, 2D cartoonish or just outlined in black/grey? Do you have this skill since childhood or is it trained/how long?

If from childhood I know one more person like you and and I think such skills are some form of eidetic memory and neurodiversity. As if the boundary between imagination and perception was blurred.

I get 3 dimensional figures rotating in space only in a strange realm when I fall asleep consciously straight from highly concentrated jhanas. They are similar to the rocks hanging in space like here https://youtu.be/jLl0PgH4rbw or simply geometrical. The only room for attentional manipulation is to zoom in or out, so they reveal their fractal like nature.

But you just collect the dots with attention and move them to other places or form an intention or what is your technique with white and color and dots and form?

My boyfriend is using light dots like spilling sand to visualize in 3D his vajra deities with all the ornaments and mandala around, which ten become intelligent....
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 2:11 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 1:03 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
...hypnagogic swirls 
If I want to get to the next stage like lucid dreaming I have to 'walk' past it using
walking meditation or focusing on kinesthetic feeling or 'ride' past it with percussion or imagine past it with visualization.
(...) I have
to walk past it or active imagine past it e.g. making the white stuff into a bird and following it.

(...) verbal thought switches to metaphorical thought. Eventually for me everything goes to sleep but
the generators wake up in proportion. Like vision goes to sleep, then the scenery generator becomes autonomous

(...)
what is nothingness for me? it's potential. not a static zero but a zero sum like two standing waves
cancelling each other out or two opposites cancelling sin(x) + sin(x + pi), more like the yin yang symbol. (...)
which I guess feels more Tao, matching speeds with the wind,
seeking more elegance than missingness and in these cases
a point in time where things happen to cancel, but because there is motion will eventually uncancel. (...) I'm not sure what a formless realm is either. When I encounter one it feels to me that I can't see
what it is but it has a flavor that is just not visual so I just switch to the same walking meditation
foot feels mode and feel my way through it to the next place. Like the algorithm realm is a 'formless realm'.
There's no visual imagery so it feels formless but there's structure there, so not formless like
maximum entropy noise (static on an analog tv), but maybe structured noise (glitches on a digital tv forms square blocks).
I just assume it's formless because I haven't grown the neurons to properly see it yet or it's
some sense mode I haven't developed.


Riding past hypnagogia with percussion :-). Could you elaborate? Also how many minutes it takes you to get to next phase? I appreciate your earlier descriptio of walking through hypnagoges as if touching with feet below the visions. Also - you don't call dots, lines and spirals hypnagoges? Then what are they?

I do the same but with one pointed attention on light or nada sound, on insight questions or noting. It's as if the distraction was happening on one screen and focus on another and the screens are located above or below each other and yiu can sense for them in the darkness :-). I clearly see there can be focus in one sensory channel (ie unwavering kinesthetic grip) and distraction in other sensory or mental channel (ie word salad or syllables in auditory channels or hypnagoges in visual channel). When I want to concentrate to the fullest I condense focus in each sense separately one by one. 

Generators. I sometimes call these mind functions engines as well because it's so clear - when transfering from waking to dream lucidly - to see them going offline and online again when emerging from dream. Probably in buddhist language we would call them skandhas.

Formless realms are  concentration, not insight attainments. I share the view that they are a frozen state of our karmic tendencies and hindrances temporarily suspended, yogacara calls it alayavijnana, storage house consciousness. That would explain (1) the suttas saying visions are possible from them, (2)
lucid dreams appear from them, (3) it's possible to sense in the darkness their inner structure (can sacred geometry have something to do with it) and pierce to emptiness with insight. Allan Wallace from dzogchen and quantum physics perspective calls the storage in jhana a substrate consciousness and defines it as having integral structure as well. How do you experience this structure? In which senses?
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 1:41 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 1:41 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
In any case, I think my curiosity is satisfied, gonna leave this up for a a bit and then delete and go back to conceptual
land
hector you deleted that last thread of yours right out from under a deep, funny, and spectacularly conceptual reply involving string theory, jhanas, tarot, and my first and second wife (same woman, she really was that good).

my email is tim_farrington@msn.com   Would you mind droppng me a line there, and not deleting it before you send it? You may be the only person on DhO as crazy as me and i can't afford to lose you.

love,
tim
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 2:39 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 2:39 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Oh sorry I thought I was just deleting leaf nodes. I have email copies if you want any of the crazier ones.
Sorry about your wife one and two, I didn't know there was anything after the posts since on the threads they looked like leaf nodes.

shit, man, send me what you've got. it all looks like leaf nodes to me, and i don't even know what a leaf node is.

That blue quilt wife one and two made me while we were engaged to be married for the first time warms and comforts me still. The fact that it has survived when nothing else has is in my eyes definitive proof of the existence of 1) true love and 2) the God of Mercy and Justice, of Abram and Isaac, of Jacob and Jesus. Or as my pal Malcolm puts it, Not Two, Not One. (I'm deeply Trinitarian, though the Nicene Creed fucked my sect over badly.)
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 2:46 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/16/20 2:46 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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emoticon

Hector, i've got a longer reply in the slow works, so don't delete your fucking post, literally for God's sake.
I haven't really tried sound mantra, the only time I do that is when doing 'speaking in tongues' prayer
we also call that "scat," sometimes, if we're trying to pass among the neurotypical.
or with a Jew's harp. 

great use of this on Johnny Cash's version of "God's Gonna Cut You Down" from that wildly creative all bets are off last phase of his great life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJlN9jdQFSc
In that form it's sort of using my emotion to convey a complex message to God with no need for conceptual thought.
yeah, that God's got a great ear for the wordless heart.

love, tim
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 9:47 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 9:47 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Here's an example of an effortful concentration exercise I do
- make 8 hands
1, 2
3, 4,
5, 6
7, 8

Throw a cool muddy soft ball between hands 1, 4, 5, 8, 7, 6, 3, 2, 1 and try and deeply feel the motion
of the muscles and the feel and temperature of the ball. Speed slows down a bit
when I change the texture mid way like tennis ball texture to mud texture, sounds seem to come for free.

Pre cached macros are effortless, like clap all hands at once, clap them in the order of a 12, 34, 56, 78,
run out and feel all the trees and bushes. More effort - click the fingers one at a time in some specified order.


You're a better man than I am, my friend. Looking at this exquisite sequence of workings of the citti reminds me that i am a lazy bastard. Thatnk you for helping me get in touch once more, afresh, with the truth of me.
Adding different colored fingernails is effort. 

I love you, Hector. But you lost me at "effort."
I think what's happening is my waking story generator is a lot
slower than my sleeping story generator at generating attributes.

lol, ya think? But you are getting pretty damn fast, with your new toys.

love, tim
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 10:51 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 10:51 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
What's a citti? Is that the generic name for mental exercise? The google definition brings up a bunch of different terms

brain fart on my part.

Citta is a Sanskrit word meaning "consciousness" and is derived from the root word, cit, meaning "to perceive." It is all that is perceived and all that can be perceived. Consciousness is the space that holds all perceivable things. Citta may also be thought of as Spirit.In the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali defines yoga as yoga-citta-vritti-nirodaha, which means that yoga makes all misconceptions and distractions of thoughts disappear.
I just meant the play of mind and consciousness, basically, bvery broadly: the prima materia of your alchemy.




love, tim
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 11:15 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 11:15 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
so mind is the white stuff and consciousness is the one moving the white stuff around? and citta is both components?

I don't pay attention to colors much. Mind is what is left when body and breath are nowhere to be found, is one rule of thumb for me.
I'm guessing that the will formed hands are subtle body and when they run off and become part of the environment they
aren't subtle body and when they come back they are subtle body again or are they both subtle body regardless
of whether will is there or not? For the matter, what is subtle body?
I think subtle body is sort of like training wheels before the full wheel-less unicycle of the formless trapeze act without a net.
Does ego point count as subtle body
if it is a dimensionless dot?
Depends on the Asian market, and what rate the Subtle Body stocks are trading at in any given session. Generally, I start with the dimensionless dot and don't look back. Dimensionless dot is priceless; for everything else, there are subtle bodies using MasterCard.
I assume since vision is still not panoramic that the mind creates eyes but I can't
see them because I am using measure forward facing camera scenery. Looking backwards just shifts the location
of the ego point to look at the previous location where there is nothing because it has moved. hmm, need to add more cameras
to look all directions next time.

talk to Linda about this, if she ever comes out of retreat, lol. She has 360 vision, as i understand it.
Also I'm glad you're willing to put up with my random thought experiments, it's really hard for to find people to discuss this with.

lol, i'm pretty sure that you, hai1en and Linda are the originators of this remarkable space to discuss this stuff. I'm just a late-to-the-party John of the Cross wannabe warning against the dangers of seduction by the world, the flesh, and the devil, with all this futzing around with lights and such.

But thankful that the three of you, and of all your tribe, are on this shit, truly. Saves me a lot of work, lol.

love, tim
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 11:28 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 11:28 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Oh I misunderstood the concept of subtle body... it's one of the things that takes "effort" for me to make so I don't usually make them.
I thought it was a exercise and to make one would be some measure of progress. Thanks for saving me the time, I thought
it was going to be a huge chore to maintain a body when I can just go explore without one and save the mental load of maintaining it.


lolololo. i love you, Hector!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 1:43 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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This is the 3D model I mentioned that I thought you could possibly be one of the few to take some interest in, although it was the product of a racing mind and probably doesn't make that much sense. Anyway, you asked in my log what I did with the fruitions (and erased your post before I had any chance to find this old thing), and this is what I did the first time around. Only one person apart from me seemed to see any value in it, and he was psychotic at the time, so you probably shouldn't take it very seriously.


One of the reasons that I appreciate this forum so much is that it is socially accepted and even encouraged to be a phenomenology junky, as it turns out that I am one. Should have seen that one coming, hehe. Anyway, I sometimes find that language is a crude instrument for understanding complex matters, not least because it requires a linear presentation. I often find that I need to think in more than one direction in order to make at least some justice to the objects of my interest. Unfortunately, I lack both the mathematical and the technical skills to visualize how I think. After having gone through a few different doors to fruition I felt that I had to try anyway, because I needed that kind of framework to integrate my experience in a way that made sense to me. Being unable to communicate central aspects of my experience just drives me nuts. Thus I started to put together a tentative model of what the insights were about. The model is based on very little experiential data (7 fruitions, I believe), so it is of course very crude, and I will probably need to change it over time. It's not an attempt to represent any ultimate truth, just my personal attempts at making sense of something that is of course too complex to make sense of. Constructing the model helped me to straighten out some question marks that I had about my journey so far. It would be interesting to get some input from others if possible.

Here goes:

Imagine a cube. It has three dimensions. The three dimensions are impermanence, emptiness and suffering. All these dimensions are subject to tension between two extremes that only make sence if there is a reference point of some kind and thus polarity. The tension is a force of expansion vs contraction. The tensions of the different dimensions are represented on the cube in such a way that one side of the cube represents one of the extremes of that dimension and the opposite side the other extreme. The six sides of the cube are thus representations of polarized constructions of the three characteristics, two extremes per characteristic.

The impermanence polarity is between the expansive extreme of infinite flow a shaken bottle of mineral water on the one hand and the contractive extreme of absolute stillness (stagnation/rigidity/coagulation) on the other hand. The balance point within polarity (which is of course a subjective construction and dependent on scale) is a balanced flow of motion in time and space, with periods of more stillness. Nibbana is the non-polarity option with regard to all dimensions, and the ultimate balance point. "Ultimate" shall not be understood in a normative way; change is the nature of life, and there's nothing wrong with that per se. Let us represent this polarity as flow <--> stillness, thus naming one side flow and the opposite side stillness.

The emptiness polarity is between the expansive extreme of separation (dividing, making distinctions, analyzing into smaller and smaller parts) on the one hand, where everything is shattered, and the contractive extreme of unity where everything is merged on the other hand. There is an infinity paradox in both those extremes. The separation extreme paradox is explained pretty well in Zenon’s paradox. The unity extreme paradox is that if everything is on one side, there is nothing on the other side, and thus there can be no sides. The balance point is realizing that emptiness and suchness are pretty much the same thing, only dependent on whether it is looked upon from the inside or outside, as Culadasa puts it, which is in itself a paradox dependent on a reference point and thus polarity. (EDIT: The two opposite sides of the cube reflecting this polarity may be named separation and unity. Another options is ”I am nothing” vs ”I am everything”.)

The suffering polarity is between the expansive extreme of craving/clinging on the one hand and the contractive extreme of having no will on the other hand, which in polarity tends to become indifference/apathy when driven too far to that extreme. The balance point within polarity is letting go but still caring. Compassion if you will (and with the realization that dependent origination means that there isn’t really a independent will because that would imply a separate self).

Fruitions are sort of a discharge that gives release for the purpose of purification. They tend to bring us closer to the center of the cube where all dimensions are balanced. In the fruition, the polarity between the expansive and the contractive side is gone. Thus there is no experience. When we come back to the polarized mode we also come back to experience. When we do so, we are relatively balanced. 

The different doors are approximating constructions having to do with what kind of discharge was most apparent to us. If the cube were an actual three dimensional map with real coordinations, it would be possible to pinpoint the exact location with regard to all three dimensions. That is not really the case since all these dimensions are paradoxical because they depend on referent points and scales, but we can still use the idea of it for the purpose of sensemaking. The six sides of the cube are only relative directions, but there is no endpoint. The sides are thus not the doors; they are just these constructed extremes. The eight corners of the cube do not really exist, because that would require that the sides were actually there and that there was finity, that is, something outside of the cube. There isn’t. Thus, the corners are not the doors. In fact, there are no doors. Doors imply that there is something outside. There is nothing but dependent origination. But (once again) for the purpose of sensemaking, it is useful to understand it as if there could be intersections resulting in a center and different sides and corners. The closer one gets to a side or a corner of the cube, the ”bigger” release results from the discharge. ”Big” refers to the noticability of the change when coming back and thus getting centered in the cube. I would assume that it is at least theoretically possible to get to fruition from any ”coordinate” within this cube. They are all have a relative position with regard to all of the three dimensions, although since there are no endpoints they are more like angles than actual coordinations (I have very little of Maths in my baggage so I’m probably using the words wrong here; please, bear with me).

I don’t have enough empirical data to say anything about what ”coordinates” are most common, but I would guess that certain clusters are more common than others, or at least most commonly distinguished and reported. It makes sense to assume that it is common for one dimension to be more dominant than the others, hence the notion of three doors. With enough clarity, it makes sense that it would also be possible to distinguish a secondary aspect of there is one, hence the notion of the six different doors. But in reality there should be an infinite number of doors since there is no endpoint in any direction.

For sensemaking purpose, the six door versions relate to the cube in the following way: 
- The impermanence door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between flow and stillness and has a flavor of either unity (merging) or separation (dividing). Cf the wave-particle model. Everything as continuous flow or everything as vanishings.
- The impermanence door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily between the tension between flow (change) and stillness and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. Caring enough to taking or welcoming initiatives or being able to let go of craving or clinging.
- The no self door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of flow or stillness.
- The no self door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. 
- The suffering door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or apathy and has a flavor of flow (opening up something that had stagnated) or stillness (calming down something that is too speeded).
- The suffering door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or by apathy and has a flavor of unity (making connections, belonging) or separation (boundaries, integrity).

It should be possible to go through a door that is equally dominated by two of the dimensions. 

It should also be possible to go through a door that is dominated by one dimension and with the other two dimensions equally involved.

I suppose it might be also possible to go through a door that is equally much about all three doors. Maybe that’s the ultimate door, to nibbana.


I intend to keep reading and commenting in this thread. I'm just a bit worned out at the moment, so my processing of text is slow. Please don't delete it or your posts! This is interesting. 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 7:44 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 7:43 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
This is the 3D model I mentioned that I thought you could possibly be one of the few to take some interest in, although it was the product of a racing mind and probably doesn't make that much sense. Anyway, you asked in my log what I did with the fruitions (and erased your post before I had any chance to find this old thing), and this is what I did the first time around. 
If this is the product of your mind racing and not making much sense, i'll have a double shot of racing and a no-sense chaser.
Only one person apart from me seemed to see any value in it, and he was psychotic at the time, so you probably shouldn't take it very seriously.
Shit, i don't even remember that! My bad!
One
of the reasons that I appreciate this forum so much is that it is socially
accepted and even encouraged to be a phenomenology junky, as it turns out that
I am one. Should have seen that one coming, hehe. 

Shamatha
is just a starter drug; once you’re hooked on that, and the phenomology, they
offer you just a taste of vipassana. Seen the needle and the damage done. Nuff
said.
Anyway,
I sometimes find that language is a crude instrument for understanding complex
matters, 

I
have no fucking idea what the fuck you fucking mean by that! Language is the fucking human
state of the art! Crude? What’s the fucking alternative? A delicate silence? A foo-foo wink? Cave art?

Well, cave art, sure.
not
least because it requires a linear presentation. I often find that I need to
think in more than one direction in order to make at least some justice to the
objects of my interest. 
Everybody's
                                                                           always 
                                   ragging
                                                                                                          on
   the                                                 goddamned                                                                                                               "linearity"
                                                                                                                          of language.
Unfortunately,
I lack both the mathematical and the technical skills to visualize how I think. 
Mathematicians and technical depictors do not necessarily "visualize" how they think, though some do. What they do is discuss or develop correlations between symbolic representations and what we take as actuality. If the correlation is high, we all go oo and ah, and eventually develop nuclear weaons and diet Coke. If there is no obvious correlation of the symbolic creation with anything in "actuality," it is considered "pure" math, which essentially seems to mean that it will take more than the mathematician's own liftime to discover the weird way in which the mathematical object models some aspect of reality so well that someone ends up understanding something better, and other people end up making momney.

Visualization of how you think is, isuspect, what you are most interestedn in, and it seems this post constitutes your own Linda Math, you own symbolic language. But for God's sake let's stop worshipping the fucking wonks and deferring to them every time somebody says "mathematics." Without you, and Hector, and those like you, loving the exploration of of "how" itself, mathematicians would be idle doodlers, and technicians would be exposed for the manipulative control freaks so many of them actually are.
After
having gone through a few different doors to fruition I felt that I had to try
anyway, because I needed that kind of framework to integrate my experience in a
way that made sense to me. Being unable to communicate central aspects of my
experience just drives me nuts. Thus I started to put together a tentative
model of what the insights were about. 
That's good, just skim right past the "nuts" thing: bury the hook. That's how I do it too.
The
model is based on very little experiential data (7 fruitions,
I believe), so it is of course very crude, and I will probably need to change
it over time. It's not an attempt to represent any ultimate truth, just my
personal attempts at making sense of something that is of course too complex to
make sense of. Constructing the model helped me to straighten out some question
marks that I had about my journey so far. It would be interesting to get some
input from others if possible.

Remember that for a model to be truly "scientific," it should generate not just explanations for phenomena already experpienced, but should also be able to point toward new phenomena, as yet unexperienced and even not conceived, that are implied in the model itself. Thus black hole theory fell out of Einstein's General Relativity theory like a clown from a Rolls Royce, followed by an aardvark: didn't see THAT shit coming.
Here
goes:


Imagine a cube. It has three dimensions. The three dimensions are impermanence,
emptiness and suffering. 

It's like you're inside my head.
All
these dimensions are subject to tension between two extremes that only make
sence if there is a reference point of some kind and thus polarity. The tension
is a force of expansion vs contraction. The tensions of the different
dimensions are represented on the cube in such a way that one side of the cube
represents one of the extremes of that dimension and the opposite side the
other extreme. The six sides of the cube are thus representations of polarized
constructions of the three characteristics, two extremes per characteristic.

I find this strangely erotic.

The
impermanence polarity is between the expansive extreme of infinite flow a
shaken bottle of mineral water on the one hand and the contractive extreme of
absolute stillness (stagnation/rigidity/coagulation) on the other hand. The
balance point within polarity (which is of course a subjective construction and
dependent on scale) is a balanced flow of motion in time and space, with
periods of more stillness. Nibbana is the non-polarity option with regard to
all dimensions, and the ultimate balance point. "Ultimate" shall not
be understood in a normative way; change is the nature of life, and there's
nothing wrong with that per se. Let us represent this polarity as flow
<--> stillness, thus naming one side flow and the opposite side
stillness.

Are you sure you should be saying this stuff in a public forum?
The
emptiness polarity is between the expansive extreme of separation (dividing,
making distinctions, analyzing into smaller and smaller parts) on the one hand,
where everything is shattered, and the contractive extreme of unity where
everything is merged on the other hand. There is an infinity paradox in both
those extremes. The separation extreme paradox is explained pretty well in
Zenon’s paradox. The unity extreme paradox is that if everything is on one
side, there is nothing on the other side, and thus there can be no sides. The
balance point is realizing that emptiness and suchness are pretty much the same
thing, only dependent on whether it is looked upon from the inside or outside,
as Culadasa puts it, which is in itself a paradox dependent on a reference
point and thus polarity. (EDIT: The two opposite sides of the cube reflecting
this polarity may be named separation and unity. Another options is ”I am
nothing” vs ”I am everything”.)

okay, then, if you can handle it, then i can
The
suffering polarity is between the expansive extreme of craving/clinging on the
one hand and the contractive extreme of having no will on the other hand, which
in polarity tends to become indifference/apathy when driven too far to that
extreme. The balance point within polarity is letting go but still caring.
Compassion if you will (and with the realization that dependent origination
means that there isn’t really a independent will because that would imply a
separate self).
like so:



"Isobarycentre, exercice de barycentres "


CentroidProject SparkDefinition: an isobarycenter, also know as the center of gravity in Physics, is the average of equal masses placed at the point positions. The formula is to add all the points, and divide by the number of points. But fortunately, Project Spark has got a tile for that: "centroid". It needs an object set to work, so you'll have to put all your objects in an object set, or directly use each object (with the in-world picker/object variables and "plus"). 

By simply treating the above graph as a plane sliced out of your cube for easy represention, and reading "isobarycenter, or center of gravity for what you have in your model termed nibbana, i think you'll see that the mind contemplating this is at first scared shitless and from there proceeds fairly quickly into a condition of breakdown and chaotic disarray, and thus commences another fruitful round of the dukha nanas.

Fruitions
are sort of a discharge that gives release for the purpose of purification.
They tend to bring us closer to the center of the cube where all dimensions are
balanced. In the fruition, the polarity between the expansive and the
contractive side is gone. Thus there is no experience. When we come back to the
polarized mode we also come back to experience. When we do so, we are
relatively balanced.

It shuld probably scare me that this not only coheres and makes sense to me as a model construct, but that it correlates very well with a lot of my experience. 
The
different doors are approximating constructions having to do with what kind of
discharge was most apparent to us. If the cube were an actual three dimensional
map with real coordinations, it would be possible to pinpoint the exact
location with regard to all three dimensions. That is not really the case since
all these dimensions are paradoxical because they depend on referent points and
scales, but we can still use the idea of it for the purpose of sensemaking. 
"Sensemaking" may also be consider as either high-functioning autism, or the human mind at its best.
The
six sides of the cube are only relative directions, but there is no endpoint.
The sides are thus not the doors; they are just these constructed extremes. 

uh-oh, trouble coming . . .
The eight corners of the cube do not really exist, because that would require that the sides were actually there and that there was finity, that is, something outside of the cube. There isn’t. 
i beg to differ, enormusly and radically, but not here now. For the record, for openers: the above statement is the most literal and graphic and strangely naive and endearing defining statement i've ever seen of being Quite Literally Unable To Think Outside Of The Box.
Thus, the corners are not the doors. In fact, there are no doors. Doors imply that there is something outside. There is nothing but dependent origination. 
1) I beg, again, to differ, though this may just be linguistic. But there is "something" outside: "God," the unsayable Name, in my tradition. 2) Thus, in my tradition it is true that there is nothing but dependent morigination, but "God" is, precisely, yhat "nothing."
But (once again) for the purpose of sensemaking, it is useful to understand it as if there could be intersections resulting in a center and different sides and corners. The closer one gets to a side or a corner of the cube, the ”bigger” release results from the discharge. ”Big” refers to the noticability of the change when coming back and thus getting centered in the cube. I would assume that it is at least theoretically possible to get to fruition from any ”coordinate” within this cube. They are all have a relative position with regard to all of the three dimensions, although since there are no endpoints they are more like angles than actual coordinations (I have very little of Maths in my baggage so I’m probably using the words wrong here; please, bear with me).
i still find it so impressive that this phenomenolgy of orgasms is being discussed in such frank fashion here. No wonder you wish you had more Math vocabularly. The veil is so thin here that almost anyone can see through it like a negligee.
I don’t have enough empirical data to say anything about what ”coordinates” are most common, but I would guess that certain clusters are more common than others, or at least most commonly distinguished and reported. It makes sense to assume that it is common for one dimension to be more dominant than the others, hence the notion of three doors. With enough clarity, it makes sense that it would also be possible to distinguish a secondary aspect of there is one, hence the notion of the six different doors. But in reality there should be an infinite number of doors since there is no endpoint in any direction
Now you're talking. N + 1 doors. This is theory generating hypothesis at its finest.
For sensemaking purpose, the six door versions relate to the cube in the following way: 
- The impermanence door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between flow and stillness and has a flavor of either unity (merging) or separation (dividing). Cf the wave-particle model. Everything as continuous flow or everything as vanishings.
- The impermanence door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily between the tension between flow (change) and stillness and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. Caring enough to taking or welcoming initiatives or being able to let go of craving or clinging.
- The no self door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of flow or stillness.
- The no self door with suffering as secondary aspect deals primarily with the tension between separation and unity and has a flavor of either caring or letting go. 
- The suffering door with impermanence as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or apathy and has a flavor of flow (opening up something that had stagnated) or stillness (calming down something that is too speeded).
- The suffering door with no self as secondary aspect deals primarily with pain caused by either too much attraction or too much aversion or by apathy and has a flavor of unity (making connections, belonging) or separation (boundaries, integrity).











It should be possible to go through a door that is equally dominated by two of the dimensions. 

It should also be possible to go through a door that is dominated by one dimension and with the other two dimensions equally involved.

I suppose it might be also possible to go through a door that is equally much about all three doors. Maybe that’s the ultimate door, to nibbana.
Again, generating hypotheses from the theory, testable by experiment. Awesome.
I intend to keep reading and commenting in this thread. I'm just a bit worned out at the moment, so my processing of text is slow. Please don't delete it or your posts!
Hector, for God's sake, listen to this person.

This is interesting. 
Hell yes, it is.

love, tim
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 7:45 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 7:45 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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oh SHIT, now i know why Olivier's stuff comes out like this sometimes. i just haven't got the energy to do that mess again. Forgive me.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 10:48 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
I'm probably weirder than this lol. The same way you can generalize obtained signs from lights and all that, you can probably
create doors from anything, even a garbage can or math.

I don’t think that’s weird. I believe it’s true.


I create conceptual meditation objects  like this, think for them for a while, obtain the insight then release them, no need for the structure itself anymore, it was just a playground for generating insight. Sometimes it generates junk, sometimes it's a mirror, sometimes it's just for fun, same as dream imagery. The lore and mythology it generates, in this case the form of the structure, is kind of like the font of a text, it provides flavor but you can change the font and still get the same message. The structure itself to me is a prison, useful for generating the insight and then I move on to the next insight generator, I don't stick around with one structure for long. That's why I delete my posts, once I get my insight I'm done with it, not useful anymore to me at least. Crazy thought experiment concluded, I'll resample it when I get around to it but it was fun while it lasted, don't want to leave empty starbucks cups lying around.
I do use math to generate doors though, so in case I need to re-visit a particular conceptual playground again.

I get that. However, the threads may mean something to others, especially if they were invested in engaging in them. Do you think it might be possible to let go of the structure with out deleting it? That could lead to new insights for you.


Also, I figure insight will come when it's ready, it will just appear in a dream or like memory and I don't really have to go looking for it,
when I'm ready it will come to fruition when it's ripe and not before, the suffering for me is trying to make all the stuff
ripen before it's ready.

That’s a good approach.


In this case, trying to figure out the white stuff but hae1en's question about what was it helped
me figure out what was going on and sort of released the tension / fruition and generated a ton of insights, but the explicit
structure itself is probably not useful or re-usable for anyone else.

Good for you. As for the usefulness for others, you never know.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/17/20 11:31 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Tim Farrington:

If this is the product of your mind racing and not making much sense, i'll have a double shot of racing and a no-sense chaser.

Now you're talking. N + 1 doors. This is theory generating hypothesis at its finest.

Again, generating hypotheses from the theory, testable by experiment. Awesome.

Well, thankyou!


Only one person apart from me seemed to see any value in it, and he was psychotic at the time, so you probably shouldn't take it very seriously.
Shit, i don't even remember that! My bad!

Oh, that wasn’t you. But now two manic persons have independently from each other praised my model. Maybe you just have to be bipolar to understand it. Or maybe this just illustrates exactly how much my mind was racing. Or maybe both.



Shamatha is just a starter drug; once you’re hooked on that, and the phenomology, they offer you just a taste of vipassana. Seen the needle and the damage done. Nuff said.

Oh, that needle inserted itself in daily life long before that.



I have no fucking idea what the fuck you fucking mean by that! Language is the fucking human
state of the art! Crude? What’s the fucking alternative? A delicate silence? A foo-foo wink? Cave art?

Well, cave art, sure.

It can’t in itself capture the experience, but art (including writing as an art) sometimes does a better job because it leaves cracks and gaps for meaning to manifest between the lines.


Everybody's
                                                                           always 
                                   ragging
                                                                                                          on
   the                                                 goddamned                                                                                                               "linearity"
                                                                                                                          of language.

Well, maybe you are able to follow more than one direction at a time in your language use, but most people can’t.



Mathematicians and technical depictors do not necessarily "visualize" how they think, though some do.

I was referring to those who actually do.


What they do is discuss or develop correlations between symbolic representations and what we take as actuality. If the correlation is high, we all go oo and ah, and eventually develop nuclear weaons and diet Coke. If there is no obvious correlation of the symbolic creation with anything in "actuality," it is considered "pure" math, which essentially seems to mean that it will take more than the mathematician's own liftime to discover the weird way in which the mathematical object models some aspect of reality so well that someone ends up understanding something better, and other people end up making momney.

Visualization of how you think is, isuspect, what you are most interestedn in, and it seems this post constitutes your own Linda Math, you own symbolic language. But for God's sake let's stop worshipping the fucking wonks and deferring to them every time somebody says "mathematics." Without you, and Hector, and those like you, loving the exploration of of "how" itself, mathematicians would be idle doodlers, and technicians would be exposed for the manipulative control freaks so many of them actually are.

Thanks...


That's good, just skim right past the "nuts" thing: bury the hook. That's how I do it too.

Lol


Remember that for a model to be truly "scientific," it should generate not just explanations for phenomena already experpienced, but should also be able to point toward new phenomena, as yet unexperienced and even not conceived, that are implied in the model itself. Thus black hole theory fell out of Einstein's General Relativity theory like a clown from a Rolls Royce, followed by an aardvark: didn't see THAT shit coming.

LOL



I find this strangely erotic.

Maybe it’s not my sense-making of fruitions that mimicks orgasms. Maybe orgasms are mimicking how the existence operates.







"Isobarycentre, exercice de barycentres "


CentroidProject SparkDefinition: an isobarycenter, also know as the center of gravity in Physics, is the average of equal masses placed at the point positions. The formula is to add all the points, and divide by the number of points. But fortunately, Project Spark has got a tile for that: "centroid". It needs an object set to work, so you'll have to put all your objects in an object set, or directly use each object (with the in-world picker/object variables and "plus"). 

By simply treating the above graph as a plane sliced out of your cube for easy represention, and reading "isobarycenter, or center of gravity for what you have in your model termed nibbana, i think you'll see that the mind contemplating this is at first scared shitless and from there proceeds fairly quickly into a condition of breakdown and chaotic disarray, and thus commences another fruitful round of the dukha nanas.
Haha!



It shuld probably scare me that this not only coheres and makes sense to me as a model construct, but that it correlates very well with a lot of my experience. 

Tell me more!


i beg to differ, enormusly and radically, but not here now. For the record, for openers: the above statement is the most literal and graphic and strangely naive and endearing defining statement i've ever seen of being Quite Literally Unable To Think Outside Of The Box.

You are misunderstanding me. What I’m saying is: there is no box.




Thus, the corners are not the doors. In fact, there are no doors. Doors imply that there is something outside. There is nothing but dependent origination. 


1) I beg, again, to differ, though this may just be linguistic. But there is "something" outside: "God," the unsayable Name, in my tradition. 2) Thus, in my tradition it is true that there is nothing but dependent morigination, but "God" is, precisely, yhat "nothing."

Yes, it’s just linguistic.



love, tim

Love right back at ya.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 5:22 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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emoticon

okay, you crazed visualization-mongers, here's one.

What you do is combine elements from the kama sutra---





with the ancient motif of the ouroboros--- 



Now consider the yoni and the lingam, the yin and the yang, in the form of female and male human body. An ouroboros lingam, inserted kama sutra fashion deep into a woman's yoni, piercing every chakra up to the fifth, and emerging from her mouth, to have the loop through her closed off by the ouroboros taking its own tail properly in its own mouth, the two now inseparably linked, interwoven.

can you see it?

love, tim
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 6:01 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Also interesting from the paper "One possible location for their origin is provided by fMRI studies of visual imagery suggesting that V1 is activated when human subjects are instructed to inspect the fine details of an imagined visual object" which is probably why I don't see it during focus on breath (in that case I see large blobs) and only during vipassana style focus on detail / hypnagogia.

Hector :-) Sometimes when I read you, I'm no longer clear, if we talk about hypnagogia, lucid hypnagogic sleep, deeper meditation/jhana or lucid dream. Can you clarify, when you write, please? And here - what is "it" in the sentence?

Despite not knowing I can share that imagery I get also changes depending on techinque.

It's blob-like (is this what you call blob ? I think this is what Visudhimagga calls cotton-like or ball of cotton sign) or homogeneous light -  during focus on breath, or during focus on large objects (like hwadu-big insight questions: what is it that perceives, like location of the observer, like the whole sensate field at once, like the whole awareness excluding it's content all at once etc.). 

And with single-focus onepointed concentration on zero-dimensional point (the don't know point ;-)) the vision on periphery becomes snowy, full of flickering dots, flowing dust, starry, basically points of light. Is this what you call white stuff? 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 6:08 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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emoticon

It's blob-like (is this what you call blob 

Hae1en, wow. I see that all the time. All of space was once raining similar, more scintillating stuff once, after a particularly deep and gentle massage.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 6:09 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 6:09 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
hae1en:
Hector:
You really get such complex stuff?
Ugh I wrote a long essay and then when I hit post my computer crashed so short answers
Complex stuff? Not as complex or colorful, but similar in nature, spirals with lightning jags when playing with color, softer spirals when playing with white stuff. It's because I'm bootstrapping off of random colored dots for the color play and the black dot for my form play.(...)
Pretty fast, 1 minute of dots and lines, next minute make it into a ball and then spirals.(...)
During the lucid dream I do something like noting.

I think you are talking about regular hypnagogia with rather blurry colors, not photorealistic 3D visions like in fully - immersive dream. 
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 6:30 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Using percussion to get past hypnagogia -- the rhythms cause the white stuff to behave a bit more, the dots become waves and the characters tend to do dances that I can understand, like a body language to the time of the music. (...)
The dots lines and spirals aren't the hypnagoges, they are a lot easier to instantiate.

So what you call white stuff is black and white-ish hypnagogia? And what you call color stuff are dots and lines and spirals? 

I would also like to join others in asking you not to delete your posts or this thread, as I would like to be able to return to it and think it might be useful for others. With Tim's literary allusions and Polly's 3D model :-).

Linda, do you know that in some schools Nagarjuna's tetralemmas are used exactly as coordinates for insight? You simply have to exclude four "locations" - this, that, neither this nor that, neither both - and there you have your Big X on the map ;-).
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 6:41 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:

I'm guessing that the will formed hands are subtle body and when they run off and become part of the environment they aren't subtle body and when they come back they are subtle body again or are they both subtle body regardless of whether will is there or not? For the matter, what is subtle body?

Does ego point count as subtle body 
if it is a dimensionless dot? I assume since vision is still not panoramic that the mind creates eyes but I can't see them because I am using measure forward facing camera scenery. Looking backwards just shifts the location of the ego point to look at the previous location where there is nothing because it has moved. hmm, need to add more cameras to look all directions next time.

Oh I misunderstood the concept of subtle body... it's one of the things that takes "effort" for me to make so I don't usually make them. I thought it was a exercise and to make one would be some measure of progress. Thanks for saving me the time, I thought it was going to be a huge chore to maintain a body when I can just go explore without one and save the mental load of maintaining it.


Are you talking about hypnagogia or lucid dreams here? How often you have no body in dreams and where is your observer point located at that time?

If you have, as I think you have, clarity that there is something like "ego point" (observer's perspective) and that it's constructed and empty and if you understand that body is also a mind-construction and the observer point doesn't even need this bodily vehicle to travel in the sensate field and you have written elsewhere that you are able to turn on and off various generators of what constitutes a subject-object experience - but you are not from a buddhist playground - I wonder how do you define "ego" or "self". Do you experience "ego point" as part of the object or subject side or something else? ;-)
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 6:44 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Tim Farrington:
emoticon

It's blob-like (is this what you call blob 

Hae1en, wow. I see that all the time. All of space was once raining similar, more scintillating stuff once, after a particularly deep and gentle massage.

Dear Tim, this is the neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex. It happens not only in epilepsy or migrains or other neurological syndromes, but in meditation as well. I'm just curious how do these visions known to neuroscience translate into nimitta - like phenomena and other "sacred geometry" imagery.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 9:00 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:

While looking at something, imagine, what if perception was happening like a convolutional variational auto encoder with the following structure:
encoder for eye vision, encoder for mental imagery, shared decoder for both that can generate mental imagery that is also
connected to the input for the encoder for mental imagery.

typical encoder:
light enters the eye -> decomposed to dots and edges -> decomposed to gabor like stuff ->
parts -> object representation. A decoder follows the stages backwards to make imagery.

also imagine a 'mental image' counterpart where imaginary light enters imaginary eye and is also
bi-directional, that is, an auto encoder. mental image -> mental parts -> mental object -> mental parts -> mental image

While separating the perception into these conceptual stages I was able to classify how I felt when a dog barked at me
and I jumped as : dog barks -> image of dog -> feel of dog -> idea that dog is an object -> triggering some
kind of presumtions about a dog -> mental image decoder generating image of dog lounging at me -> going through the mental image encoder -> mental object of dog -> responding to that -> realizing it was just a mental object -> suppressing the response.

This was before I read up on vipassana, so was just deducing the principles from the wikipedia entry on vipassana and winging
it using how I build machine perception models. When I subsequently tried wake induced lucid dreaming the stages of passing through the murk felt suspiciously like the stages of the mental decoder .. murk formed of dots, lines, then spirals, then parts, then objects but with additional later stages like background and narrative generation.


That’s some great vipassana right there, making these observations. I think the mind does follow specific rather predictable algorithms, which may differ depending on specific wirings of the brain and other conditions pertaining to the sense organs and individual experiences and cultural frameworks that may effect the processing. The overlap inbetween our species is probably huge, though.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 9:07 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:
Tim Farrington:
emoticon

It's blob-like (is this what you call blob 

Hae1en, wow. I see that all the time. All of space was once raining similar, more scintillating stuff once, after a particularly deep and gentle massage.
x
Dear Tim, this is the neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex. It happens not only in epilepsy or migrains or other neurological syndromes, but in meditation as well. I'm just curious how do these visions known to neuroscience translate into nimitta - like phenomena and other "sacred geometry" imagery.

In Siddha yoga, Muktananda described the long process of finding and stability and clarifying "The Blue Pearl." And, of course, down in the trenches of us, blue pearls everywhere.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 9:17 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:
Hector:
reading up on dream yoga and wake induced lucid dreaming and fire kasina and realizing that the 'white stuff' in hypnagogia seems to be the same manipulable white stuff -> 
(...)
It typically looks like the column under "sleep state". I use the foot feels of walking meditation to stay concentrated past the hypnagogia and sometimes vipasanna the "murk". 
(...)
Crude correspondence map of CV/CG/Lucid dreaming/meditation @eigenhector

Hector, this is a super nerdy map! Feels like home. I think it's implicit in your post, just want to directly write that what Hector describes is the same model Jack Cowan's applied to psychodelics in the link I inserted. Let's unpack it quickly:

Visual object recognition in central nervous system:
Light reaching retina.
  • Stage 1 Processing of basic object components, such as color, depth, and form - These are your filters, Hector, right?
  • Stage 2 These basic components are then grouped on the basis of similarity, providing information on distinct edges to the visual form. Subsequently figure-ground segregation is able to take place.
  • Stage 3 The visual representation is matched with structural descriptions in memory. - In various discussions on skandhas some say that before meaning is ascribed by the skandha of perception (sanna), the skandha of form (rupa) is responsible for earlier information processing stages 1-3.
  • Stage 4 Semantic attributes are applied to the visual representation, providing meaning, and thereby recognition. - Some objects are easily recognizable like faces, eyes (evolutionary gift handy when in jungle), even spiders, because there are also full object-specific regions in the brain. This explains why we see them so easily and why some people see them in FK

I wonder what white stuff you refer to and how can you use foot feel while descending into a lucid dream (hypnagogia) - if I got you right, lol :-)

This is basically how sound hallucinations develop as well, which I know from experience; apparently, hallucinating one's own very specific mobile phone signal is very common among burned out autistic people, and as long as you are aware of it, it doesn't count as psychosis. I have been burned out a number of times, and so I have had great opportunities for studying this process in its making several times. It's fascinating. There really does not exist any clear boundaries between normal perception and hallucinations. It's the same thing, basically, but with more individual creativity in the hallucinations. It starts with occasional instances of maybe hearing something reminding of the phone signal in noice, such as in the shower or in the traffic or while vacuum cleaning, because the brain fills out possible patterns. Then there is a very gradual and seamless change over time until you can hear the complex melody loud and clear in a silent environment while looking at your dead phone. By that time, you have been so sensitivized to anything that even remotely reminds you of the tune that it plays out in your mind as soon as it is triggered. Hm, I would probably be very sensitive to sound kasina. The white stuff in that would probably be white noice. Oh, well, I guess I have already done that with the nada sound, come to think of it.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 9:37 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:
Hector:
typical encoder:
light enters the eye -> decomposed to dots and edges -> decomposed to gabor like stuff ->
parts -> object representation. A decoder follows the stages backwards to make imagery.

also imagine a 'mental image' counterpart where imaginary light enters imaginary eye and is also
bi-directional, that is, an auto encoder. mental image -> mental parts -> mental object -> mental parts -> mental image

When I subsequently tried wake induced lucid dreaming the stages of passing through the murk felt suspiciously like the stages of the mental decoder .. murk formed of dots, lines, then spirals, then parts, then objects but with additional later stages like background and narrative generation.

Hector, I also try to grasp this sequence :-), great to see you here. And I came up with - less nerdy - but similar conclusions. I also have some more questions:

  • how the world and self continuum is constructed in general :-)
  • how to stabilize and slow down perception so the stages of self-world construction are visible beyond what we normally call perceving vibrations in vipassana, for example when lucidly falling asleep and waking up
  • is sacred geometry and protoforms in hypnagogia a way to see "inside" vibrations - this is a metaphore, but:
  • is there a intermediate state between formed and formless realms (dots, lines, spirals, parts, objects, background etc?)
  • when deconstructing the illusion of pure formless awareness (mirror or substrate consciousness/alayavijnana/true self/one mind) as a final destination and piercing through it to annata/emptiness - is imagery a mark of progress: I noticed that some people on the forum like Linda or Chris Marti, before fruitions saw variations of indra's net or pixaleted tunnels, same with Malcolm
  • is it possible to observe all 12 elements of dependent origination separately
  • how deep the insight has to go with the imagery for it to "click and lock in" (so the psychological effects of "body and mind drop off" linger and become permanent)
  • does one have to see specific imagery, which is a mark of success of this permanent shift (in some spiritual traditions there are)
I will write more on Indra's net (it can be a cobweb with pearls too, Tim) later.
Hector, can you write more on auto-encoder? 

As for slowing down perceptions, Daniel writes about such a version of the A&P in MCTB2. I think that may have been what I had the time when time was solid and still. There have also been incidents on the threshold between A&P and dissolution when I have been able to hear the vibrations of people talking, as if they were talking in slow motion.

I think sacred geometry and hypnagogic images are a product of how consciousness works and thereby sort of a chrystallized version of the vibrational level of samsara (which is also nibbana).

I think of those dots and lines and spirals and soforth as an intermediate state inbetween third and fourth jhana and - when they reach a certain quality - as part of fourth jhana. I think that's the vipassana jhana version. At least it appears so for me. That would also explain why it has so often preceded fruitions, which always come after equanimity in which fourth jhana occurs. It seems like some imageries are shared among practicioners, but not among everyone, but I don't know.

As for dependent origination, I haven't even bothered learning all the names and categories. I don't think I would necessarily agree with the model for it. I certainly hope that I won't need to dig deep into those specificities as modelled in the sutras. I trust that the process will take care of whatever needs to be seen. 
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Not two, not one:
Thank you Tim, I do agree about metaphor. I believe that our super powerful subconcious speaks to us through metaphor. And in the end, metaphor is all we have. We are an ever evolving web of metaphors.

My interest in Indra's net is not just the metaphor, but also to dig deep into the specifics of the construction of the eye faculty.  Simlar to digging deep into the specifics of the sense of touch.  I think the honeycomb (which we overlay with all sorts of perceptions and sacred geomtery, and metaphor, and is itself a metaphor), may be a deep perception of some base component of the eye faculty.  Digging deep deep deep deep into that sense may help deconstruct reality, just as digging deeply into physical sensations does. So aside from the metahpor, and not to in any way downplay the metahphor, I am wondering whether the honeycomb, or web, provides another perceptual thread dangling from the garment of self, that we can pull and pull to unravel.

Much love

Malcolm

Do you draw a line between the eye and the brain here, and if so, where? How do you think of the relation between eye-brain and mind? Between mind and consciousness?
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
The white stuff is what I call Gabor wavelet or Gabor basis, like lego blocks for form.
It makes diffraction gratings and waves, easiest in the start to transform to something similar like birds or butterflies.
The colorful stuff is a different basis function and easier to make into flowers or
ummm ... pleasurable colorful lightning spirals? When you resonate it enough it can actually leak
out to your body and tingle your toes. I didn't discover this add this correspondence because I didn't make
the mapping until I read MCTB kasina chapter a few days ago and realized it was the other fork.
When I tried it it was similar to what I call colorful stuff, except
I don't focus on a single color... I just amplify whatever looks good.
If I were to add it to columns under CV it would be luma converge and chroma converge under YUV.
Y stands for luminance and UV are a 2D color coordinate system, it appears that there are
two knobs early on, one for luminance and another for chroma.
It sounds like you are doing advanced kasina practice. 
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Hector:
I linked the 'story generating vae' I think in the 2nd post under world models https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.10122. There's also the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoencoder 
some fun analogies
concentration as sofmax - concentrating the gradients to pass through only a few neurons
clarity as distentanglement - using information theory to make the codes orthogonal like how cellular systems use orthogonal code in CDMA https://arxiv.org/abs/1912.12818 
clarity as L1 regularization or RELU - setting non active channels to 0
mode collapse in a vae - when the generator gets stuck generating one kind of thing or generating nothing
like having a piano and you can choose to play nothing, a note, a chord or a music from a sheet or something you come up with
I actually use 'equinamity' to avoid mode collapse - sampling all the modes and seeing how they feel even if it's an unpleasant dream
Nowadays I choose not to wake up from nightmares because I find it fun to see them through to resolution.

...and dream yoga, indeed. I have often had that approach with nightmares too, by the way. I know that many people use lucid dreaming for that purpose, but I don't need for a dream to be lucid to do that. Periodically it just happens on its own: a sudden plot twist that changes everything and resolves the danger.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:12 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Stirling Campbell:
Not two, not one:

I think the honeycomb (which we overlay with all sorts of perceptions and sacred geomtery, and metaphor, and is itself a metaphor), may be a deep perception of some base component of the eye faculty.  Digging deep deep deep deep into that sense may help deconstruct reality, just as digging deeply into physical sensations does. So aside from the metahpor, and not to in any way downplay the metahphor, I am wondering whether the honeycomb, or web, provides another perceptual thread dangling from the garment of self, that we can pull and pull to unravel.

One of the moments where I knew this board, and Daniel's book were timely was in the section titled "The 3 Doors" where he says:

When the no-self door predominates with suffering as its second aspect, then a very strange thing happens. There may be an image on one side staring back, but even if there isn’t, the universe becomes a toroid (doughnut-shaped), or occasionally a sphere, and the image and this side of the toroid switch places as the toroid universe spins.

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/31-the-three-doors/

This is quite similar to my Stream Entry experience/moment of insight into emptiness only with it the toroid shape had a grid/honeycomb type pattern that was gently traced underneath the toroidal distortion of reality, and it came with a seemingly extraordinarlily deep Indra's Net/Implicate Order (Bohm) seeing of the interconnectedness of all illusory points and the awareness of them reflecting each other's wholeness in each one. 

I have since seen and felt this a few times in a much weaker fashion, generally when nothing special is going on. My teacher has also seen this and believes this is about as far out a swing as you can go still expressing the karma of a "person". My instinct is that this is correct.

I'd be very interested to hear if anyone else has had this experience, or knows something about it.
I have seen a flower of life version of this spinning toroid. It was during a period when I had a lot of sacred geometry showing up. It may have been around the time of my stream entry as well. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:11 AM
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hae1en:

I started with prolonging duration of the appearance. It started with flashes of the network in what I call slides. Seems jhana is stable and suddenly there is this rapid slide with network flash and when jhana is reestablished, it seems that it's energy potential and panoramicity increased. With practice these drifts  - which felt like second-long attention drifts or even momentarily dozing off - turned out to be sources of deeper attentional modes. I read on the forum about similar attention drifts in agnostic's posts and earlier Dream Walker's. 

I learned to perceive the slides and images more clearly: (1) when they finish and jhanic focus returns, (2) after some practice: when they start and finish, (3) then while inside the slide, (4) prolonging their duration, (5) interacting with the net inside the slide, (6) actively searching for the gravitational pull in the hidden jhana structure and provoking slides. 

Naturally then the ability to prolong the duration of the grid increased, also it started to evolve.
 

This is excellent phenomenology. I have noticed too that what may seem like drifting off is really a eay to access something deeper. I haven't been able to map it as thoroughly as you, though.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:16 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:
Stirling Campbell:
Not two, not one:
I think the honeycomb (which we overlay with all sorts of perceptions and sacred geomtery, and metaphor, and is itself a metaphor), may be a deep perception of some base component of the eye faculty.  
My teacher has also seen this and believes this is about as far out a swing as you can go still expressing the karma of a "person". 

For the sake of excitement, here is the excerpt not from Tibetan but earlier Indian tradition - Visuddhimaga (Vis. VIII, 213-215) stating that nimittas can have similar shapes:

214. When he does so in this way, the sign soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon's disk or the sun's disk.

We see a web, we see gems in the intersections. We also see a draught - which I think can be a way to describe the gravitation pull in the slide. 

And [url=]here, [url=]here and here is something from Western tradition, where honeycomb is explained by neuroscience: "something, for example the presence of a drug [or meditation/me], throws the neural network off its equilibrium, kicking into action a snowballing interaction between excitatory and inhibitory neurons, which then stabilises in a stripy or hexagonal pattern of neural activity in V1/visual cortex."

Stirling, how do you understand "expressing karma" here?
This is interesting! Thanks for sharing!

As for karma, I have been thinking of all these chrystallized expressions as the art of temporarily turning samsara into a diamond.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:18 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Not two, not one:
For me there is another rare experience that has greater separation - maybe ten times the distance, and is more vivd or vision like than the honeycomb.  For me this was a precisely symmetrical star field.  Īn MCTB2 Daniel talked about a field of skulls, which I rightly or wrong recognised as the same phenomena.  I think Linda has reported this too.  Kasina folk might also report a star field? 

Interesting that yours is rectangular, as illustrated in your later post. Mine is circular. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:22 AM
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Hector:
Also interesting from the paper "One possible location for their origin is provided by fMRI studies of visual imagery suggesting that V1 is activated when human subjects are instructed to inspect the fine details of an imagined visual object" which is probably why I don't see it during focus on breath (in that case I see large blobs) and only during vipassana style focus on detail / hypnagogia.

That may explain why I experience detailed sacred geometry in fourth vipassana jhana but not in fourth shamatha jhana. Thanks!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:27 AM
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hae1en:
Not two, not one:
Like this, but more rectangular (laterally) and not quite as desnse as this picture.


I also see it, both in jhanas and in deep formless sleep. Sometimes in 3D. So how can they be formless if there are textures like this in their coating?

Sometimes I think it's the result of doing vipassana on formless realms. That would explain why the patters reveal themselves short of fruitions.

And sometimes the dots - white, blue or rainbow color form a tunnel. 

Personally, I don't count such states as formless, because that is form. When I have been in formless realms, there were no such imageries. It started out as endless bright white space, but the whiteness was the first to go. Then there were no visuals or other sensory impressions whatsoever. It was just endless awareness, then endless nothingness, then a very tangible absence even of nothingness. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:29 AM
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hae1en:

My boyfriend is using light dots like spilling sand to visualize in 3D his vajra deities with all the ornaments and mandala around, which ten become intelligent....

That’s some advanced visualization... I wish I could do that.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:35 AM
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Hector:
No definitely blended with black, mostly black and white and yeah spot on on a lot of things.
Had it since I was a kid and I use place memory and semi eidetic memory to replay
sensations and things I have experienced in a dream. The dots are mostly black and white and stuff is cartoonish.
In color play it is still mostly black and white but the edges have color.
Definitely not as saturated as the youtube, very much mostly white stuff with hints of color on the edges.
The complexity is black and white and there though. With my normal non trying to look at nimittas and 
manipulate hypnogogia any object can just appear fully formed, doesn't have to be collected and has surface texture. And can
be overlayed on the visual field in real time. Trying the giant man visualization exercise in a tibetian book on space I found
wasn't too bad. I would do it again to add in color detail, but shape is pretty straightforward.

And after thinking about it, what I do with the place memory is to replay sensations that got me to a certain state.
The only time I got really 3d clear, crisp sharp picture was with the triangle thing. I think it's different
from my version of the net thing which is still 2D. the 3d triangle thing has parallax and has this stereo vision random dot stereogram feel
in the eye muscles, that feeling when you see the random dot stereogram image for the first time. I haven't seen it since
or anything like that again, and the replay is still cartoonish and not as clear as the original experience.

And yes! It's like white sand or waves that you can shape and after a few minutes it starts
auto generating and moving on it's own and doing it's own thing. Lots of times it's very surprising
the harder I try sometimes the more random it is, so it's easier to just watch it do it's thing after intending an initial form.

Seems like I share a lot of things in common with your boyfriend!

This is so interesting! I enjoy reading about the actual process of doing it. Maybe it's learnable. I'm not a very visual person, but apparently in certain states that doesn't seem to matter anymore. Also, my practice has opened up my visual thinking a lot. I actually have a visual memory now. When I started, I couldn't even remember the color of the wall behind me (it was white and it was where I had been living for a decade) when I closed my eyes, so I would say that it's quite miraculous. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:38 AM
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Hector:
In any case, I think my curiosity is satisfied, gonna leave this up for a a bit and then delete and go back to conceptual
land


Please consider that quite a few people have put in a lot of effort in discussing this and may wish to have it preserved. I know I do. I think this can be useful for others to read. 
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hae1en:

When I want to concentrate to the fullest I condense focus in each sense separately one by one. 

I sometimes do that too.



Generators. I sometimes call these mind functions engines as well because it's so clear - when transfering from waking to dream lucidly - to see them going offline and online again when emerging from dream. Probably in buddhist language we would call them skandhas.

Exactly what is this? I don’t understand the terminology.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 10:50 AM
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Hector:
Using percussion to get past hypnagogia -- the rhythms cause the white stuff to behave a bit more , the dots become waves and the characters tend to do dances that I can understand, like a body language to the time of the music. When I tried it the first time took a while maybe
20 minutes? Now maybe 1-2 minutes? It goes autonomous much faster than wake induced lucid dreaming, which the first time
was like 25 minutes of concentration but now a bit faster, maybe also a minute if I just wake up. From full conceptual
thinking  during the day after 20 minutes of breath meditation maybe 5-10 minutes.

The dots lines and spirals aren't the hypnagoges, they are a lot easier to instantiate (I changed from manipulate because they go off and do their own thing or replicate). When I do Shinzen's language I call it mental image or mental form.
They are also different from memory, which has color and conceptual thought, which is mental voice.

I haven't really tried sound mantra, the only time I do that is when doing 'speaking in tongues' prayer or with
a Jew's harp. In that form it's sort of using my emotion to convey a complex message to God with no need for conceptual thought.

Thanks for the skandhas, I'll google it. From my conceptual thinking it does feel like mirror functions wake up as I go to sleep
and they sort of sum to one. like wake fraction + sleep fraction = 1. There's a 'body mind' that wakes up that's
bigger than me.

I still don't really know what the formless realm is.
Sometimes I drop into a dark infinite void by crashing through the earth and nothing is there.
I experience dark void as potential and full light as completeness. No physical sense
just the emotion of waiting to be born (dark) or being complete (light).
I guess in Shinzen's scheme it would be sense in or feel in.
In Rumi's language the dark one is the feeling of wind blowing off the roof, and the light one is the breath of the glassblower

Here’s the new rule: break the wineglass.


And fall toward the glassblower’s breath.

Fascinating to read about how you go about doing it.

That void of possibilities and waiting to be born sounds like an experience of the Dharmakaya nature of mind, or like a bardo state.
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Hector:
Here's an example of an effortful concentration exercise I do
- make 8 hands
1, 2
3, 4,
5, 6
7, 8

Throw a cool muddy soft ball between hands 1, 4, 5, 8, 7, 6, 3, 2, 1 and try and deeply feel the motion
of the muscles and the feel and temperature of the ball. Speed slows down a bit
when I change the texture mid way like tennis ball texture to mud texture, sounds seem to come for free.

Pre cached macros are effortless, like clap all hands at once, clap them in the order of a 12, 34, 56, 78,
run out and feel all the trees and bushes. More effort - click the fingers one at a time in some specified order.

Adding different colored fingernails is effort. I think what's happening is my waking story generator is a lot
slower than my sleeping story generator at generating attributes.

Jeeze, that sounds like a lot of work. My imagination skills are way too limited for that. 
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Tim Farrington:

I assume since vision is still not panoramic that the mind creates eyes but I can't
see them because I am using measure forward facing camera scenery. Looking backwards just shifts the location
of the ego point to look at the previous location where there is nothing because it has moved. hmm, need to add more cameras
to look all directions next time.

talk to Linda about this, if she ever comes out of retreat, lol. She has 360 vision, as i understand it.


Nah, it’s 280 degrees at best.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 11:04 AM
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hae1en:


Linda, do you know that in some schools Nagarjuna's tetralemmas are used exactly as coordinates for insight? You simply have to exclude four "locations" - this, that, neither this nor that, neither both - and there you have your Big X on the map ;-).

I had no idea. I had never heard of Nagarjuna's tetralemmas. Interesting!
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hae1en:
Tim Farrington:
emoticon

It's blob-like (is this what you call blob 

Hae1en, wow. I see that all the time. All of space was once raining similar, more scintillating stuff once, after a particularly deep and gentle massage.

Dear Tim, this is the neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex. It happens not only in epilepsy or migrains or other neurological syndromes, but in meditation as well. I'm just curious how do these visions known to neuroscience translate into nimitta - like phenomena and other "sacred geometry" imagery.

Neuroactivation wave travelling through visual cortex - yet another concept to google! I'm learning so much here.
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Hector:
I finally had a breakthrough yesterday and this morning with lucid / re-visiting a dream.
The "autonomous will fomed white stuff" is visual emotion! In one session I tried to control it by making it a deer and seeing if it 
would do something and it transform to a catfish and ate me. In another it had the form of fear and when I went back to the dream
to confront it, the same fearful things became cute dogs with collars. You can actually 'see' the point in time the 
emotion changes really like a transmutation one second they are monsters the next they are cute dogs with collars.
Reminds me of the bible phrase "perfect love casts out fear". You can't really control the autonomous forms, it's like controlling
emotion! But you can transmute it into something else. I finally understand that mysterious term
from alchemy about transmuting mere matter to gold, it didn't really make sense until you
play with the white stuff and really notice the properties of it.

I think for me it's less clear, I think it's what the screens correspond to in the kasina chapter but 
for me I call it stuff because for me experientially all the screens are mixed together at once.
Like his 4th screen matter is slower to respond. For me my automous will stuff doesn't like to be
subjugated but is amenable to transformation, but also, for me my different screen white stuff can co-exist

So
after image is like white stuff 0 from physical realm
black dot is like white stuff 1
dots still 1
spirals may be 2 (hypnagogia maybe)
will formed, slow matter is 3
but will formed slow matter that becomes autonomous and doesn't want to be controlled is 4

It doesn't really matter I think it's more like how deep are you in dreaming state. I'm using
different methods of visiting the same states but I use my sleep cycles to do it rather than meditating I think.

I had misunderstood 4 and first and thought that the lesson was about free will but I finally get it that
it's about emotion. But, also it could be a moral lesson about giving others space to express their free will.

Fascinating!
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Hector:
I'm not sure I need to train those mental muscles either, it gets boring and I am not sure I need
that level of concentration to get the insights I want. It's like running on a treadmill (doing exercises)
vs running outside (doing dream stuff).

It sounds to me like you are already quite the athlete. 
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
hae1en:

My boyfriend is using light dots like spilling sand to visualize in 3D his vajra deities with all the ornaments and mandala around, which ten become intelligent....

That’s some advanced visualization... I wish I could do that.

He's standing on fourty years of practice directly with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and unique neuro-wiring (eidetic/photographic memory, LD and OOBE since childhood) plus some extra support from other dimensions ;-))). You guys have a lot in common, let's wait some years and you will see.

I think if you look for a teacher and keep knocking, you will find yours for your individual tutoring path. I recently went for a retrat with Adyashanti with 400 participants and on the first day they announced no personal interviews and even no letters to be exchanged with him. But after two days the knowledge on how to get in touch with him simply came in meditation and I trusted it and got to talk with him. Just choose someone you trust and keep knocking. Believe me - a good student is hard to find. This forum is like Harvard (or Hogwart ;-)), it's hardly likely to see so many talented individuals at once in any one Sangha in the world. 
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 5:12 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 5:12 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Hector:

The "autonomous will fomed white stuff" 

Fascinating!
Guys, I swear I still don't understand what is white stuff and colorful stuff. Maybe it's somewhere explained above, but just can't get it. And I don't mean the mechanism or source - but simply which part of sensate field with your eyes closed are you calling white stuff. And colorfull stuff. And why do you call it like this. I'm so sorry!
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Stirling Campbell, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 7:12 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 7:12 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 605 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

As for karma, I have been thinking of all these chrystallized expressions as the art of temporarily turning samsara into a diamond.

Fortunately, samsara is always already a diamond. emoticon

Then the venerable Sariputra said to the Brahma Sikhin, "As for me, O Brahma, I see this great earth, with its highs and lows, its thorns, its precipices, its peaks, and its abysses, as if it were entirely filled with ordure."

Brahma Sikhin replied, "The fact that you see such a buddha-field as this as if it were so impure, reverend Sariputra, is a sure sign that there are highs and lows in your mind and that your positive thought in regard to the buddha-gnosis is not pure either. Reverend Sariputra, those whose minds are impartial toward all living beings and whose positive thoughts toward the buddha-gnosis are pure see this buddha-field as perfectly pure."

Thereupon the Lord touched the ground of this billion-world-galactic universe with his big toe, and suddenly it was transformed into a huge mass of precious jewels, a magnificent array of many hundreds of thousands of clusters of precious gems, until it resembled the universe of the Tathagata Ratnavyuha, called Anantagunaratnavyuha. Everyone in the entire assembly was filled with wonder, each perceiving himself seated on a throne of jeweled lotuses.

Then, the Buddha said to the venerable Sariputra, "Sariputra, do you see this splendor of the virtues of the buddha-field?"

"Sariputra replied, "I see it, Lord! Here before me is a display of splendor such as I never before heard of or beheld!"

The Buddha said, "Sariputra, this buddha-field is always thus pure, but the Tathagata makes it appear to be spoiled by many faults, in order to bring about the maturity of the inferior living beings. For example, Sariputra, the gods of the Trayastrimsa heaven all take their food from a single precious vessel, yet the nectar which nourishes each one differs according to the differences of the merits each has accumulated. Just so, Sariputra, living beings born in the same buddha-field see the splendor of the virtues of the buddha-fields of the Buddhas according to their own degrees of purity."

- VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA

Big toe is optional.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 7:21 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/18/20 7:21 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 605 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

I have seen a flower of life version of this spinning toroid. It was during a period when I had a lot of sacred geometry showing up. It may have been around the time of my stream entry as well. 

I can't say I know much more about it, other than to say that it makes sense that it appears when the "emptiness door" is triggered.

Being from a different practice, noticing fruitions (for example) rarely happens for me. Some times ago, after some practice, I was able to unreliably trigger something I think was probably what is being discussed, but it didn't have any characteristics that made me want to work at it further. It still happens occasionally of its own accord, but seems longer, (or sort of "smeared") than what you'd describe as "blip".

I suspect that for those in the shamatha-heavy traditions there is a different feel where these things come in.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 6:08 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 6:08 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector:
hae1en:
You guys have a lot in common, let's wait some years and you will see.:
Uh... what's gonna happen to me in a few years?!! I'm expecting to just go about life as normal lol
Guess I wasn't clear. This and part about finding a teacher was a continuation of some conversation we had with Linda. She also has features of a very neuroatypical person :-).
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 6:25 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 6:25 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
hae1en:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
hae1en:

My boyfriend is using light dots like spilling sand to visualize in 3D his vajra deities with all the ornaments and mandala around, which ten become intelligent....

That’s some advanced visualization... I wish I could do that.

He's standing on fourty years of practice directly with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and unique neuro-wiring (eidetic/photographic memory, LD and OOBE since childhood) plus some extra support from other dimensions ;-))). You guys have a lot in common, let's wait some years and you will see.

I think if you look for a teacher and keep knocking, you will find yours for your individual tutoring path. I recently went for a retrat with Adyashanti with 400 participants and on the first day they announced no personal interviews and even no letters to be exchanged with him. But after two days the knowledge on how to get in touch with him simply came in meditation and I trusted it and got to talk with him. Just choose someone you trust and keep knocking. Believe me - a good student is hard to find. This forum is like Harvard (or Hogwart ;-)), it's hardly likely to see so many talented individuals at once in any one Sangha in the world. 
Amen. When the one is ready, the other will appear.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 6:26 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 6:26 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
hae1en:
Hector:
hae1en:
You guys have a lot in common, let's wait some years and you will see.:
Uh... what's gonna happen to me in a few years?!! I'm expecting to just go about life as normal lol
Guess I wasn't clear. This and part about finding a teacher was a continuation of some conversation we had with Linda. She also has features of a very neuroatypical person :-).

Linda!? Neuro-atypical?! Why wasn't i told this sooner?
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 7:39 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 7:37 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
This is basically how sound hallucinations develop as well, which I know from experience; apparently, hallucinating one's own very specific mobile phone signal is very common among burned out autistic people.

I forgot to tell you! So after we had the exchange about distilling nada into light I've been also experimenting with nada sound and remembered my friend (a noble teacher BTW) told me about how he experienced the evolution of the tinnitus during his month long retreat. It changed into angel chours, which then of course was personalized, the voices were friendly in the beginning, but horrible and threatening at the end (he also complained of finding dead birds on the hermitage grounds and eerie synchronicities). The relationship lasted about 3 weeks. Finished one day after returning to the city. For some months he wasn't clear if this was his mind or separate beings.

I write about it in the hypnagogia thread - because hypnagoges can have auditory nature (divine ear?) and now I know the way they are formed. They are completely audible just as my jhana-born hypnagogia is photorealistic. Progress from tinnitus like nada sound, through scratching, buzzing, thumping sounds, through divine piano or harp music, through angelic chorus which can come from various points in the space all at once, through imitations of prozodic and gramma structure with word-salad content, through compeletely logical statements coming from male, female voices and groups. I can manipulate these appearances but only in terms of the source of sound (behind, left, right from center point) and in terms of male/female/group feature. I will write how to sculp in audio channel in another thread. 
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 8:31 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 8:27 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

Personally, I don't count such states as formless, because that is form. When I have been in formless realms, there were no such imageries. It started out as endless bright white space (...).


Linda, I think you wrote somewhere that you find imagery between 3J and 4J, right? But for me it happens most often when I finish sitting meditation - in the mornings, in order to go beyond the last conturs of the body - I assume a reclining position, lean against the wall and try to enter the dream state consciously.

I usually end up in a lucid shallow dreamless sleep or simply lucid hypnagogic dream. The dreamless lucidity is difficult for me to distinguish from formless jhanas (all 4, including the last one, since sometimes there are no mental engines on even to recognize one is in, cuz language and perception don't work, only on the threshold when leaving one becomes self-aware). BTW - can you think in formless jhanas or recognize you are in? How about in dreamless sleep? I think that in commentaries vitaka and vicara (thinking) is described as arupa jhana factor. But in the suttapitaka - not! This is what constitutes the difference between hard and soft jhana, right?

Anyhow, while in dreamless lucidity or in formless jhanas - there is this slide I told you about. And in the empty galaxy for a fraction of second one of the images is formed. A cobweb or tunnel. Field of stars. Indra's net. Puff of smoke. DMT-like mozaics or water waves textures covering whole screen. Rotating diamond or rotating rock on empty screen. Drops of blue, red or rainbow light. Flowing dust. All photorealistic and in 3D.

I learned to prolong them - this phase I start to consider vipassanizing formless jhana, because my insight learned how to find forms within what seems pure content-less awareness. In the beginning I realized there are subtle changes there in this seemingly empty field and energy currents and subtle evolution of illumination AND then these geometric flashes started to show up.

It's hard for me to return to believing in pure witness empty awareness right now, I think all there is are discreet mind-moments with gaps between them and this is what in fact constitutes jhana fabric, which at the first glance (or without insight) can seem continuous and unified.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 8:42 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/19/20 8:42 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 99 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector:
since a kid for my first subtle body I used the model of a computer - software parts that can be swapped out and changed. These days I dream as a composite group mind. But they don't really talk they just have funny
facial expressions like 'I've got this' eyebrow raise. Dimensionless point is common but
sometimes I'm the wind, sometimes some other person, sometimes a party of adventurers. (...)

I think there's no real need (for me at least) to strive to imagine being a dimensionless point
or visiting infinite voids. As I play I eventually forget my body and breath and as time goes
by I realize I don't really need a mental body and eventually the simulator will drop me into
an infinite formless void once in a while and when that happens I just be curious and explore the formless void.



So, if I may, Hector, why did you come here? Composite group mind (along with the concept of generators) sounds similar to Culadasa's (The Mind Illuminated) subminds. I wrote elswhere that progress on recognizing empty nature of the self is sometimes measured in dream yoga by observing whether you can disidentify with your body - walk through walls, shape-shift into someone else, take the whole dreamscape as your body, identify with space between dream objects etc. You seem to know how to do a lot of these. 

But when you write about "striving to imagine being a point" - it seems to me that all of this is creation for you, or manipulation and not recognision of already existent empty nature of self. You say for fun and for mental excercise, but you came to a spiritually oriented forum.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 4:45 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 4:45 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
hae1en:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
hae1en:

My boyfriend is using light dots like spilling sand to visualize in 3D his vajra deities with all the ornaments and mandala around, which ten become intelligent....

That’s some advanced visualization... I wish I could do that.

He's standing on fourty years of practice directly with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and unique neuro-wiring (eidetic/photographic memory, LD and OOBE since childhood) plus some extra support from other dimensions ;-))). You guys have a lot in common, let's wait some years and you will see.

Fourty years - yeah, that will take a while... I have only had some kind of systematic practice for 20 months today, so I’m deeply honored by that comparison. Hm, does your boyfriend take on students?

I think if you look for a teacher and keep knocking, you will find yours for your individual tutoring path. I recently went for a retrat with Adyashanti with 400 participants and on the first day they announced no personal interviews and even no letters to be exchanged with him. But after two days the knowledge on how to get in touch with him simply came in meditation and I trusted it and got to talk with him. Just choose someone you trust and keep knocking. Believe me - a good student is hard to find. This forum is like Harvard (or Hogwart ;-)), it's hardly likely to see so many talented individuals at once in any one Sangha in the world. 

Wow, that's cool! Okay, I'll try. Thanks! 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 8:06 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 8:06 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Hector:
Bonus one appeared for Tim

big bang / genesis
0 - black void
1 - thoughts = let there be light
2 - thoughts + feel = garden of eden
3 - thought + feel + let go (faith?) = story after the fall ... free will and all that
4 - redemption ???

"4 - redemption ???" = get over blaming Eve for the Fall and rediscover our love for the first time new.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 11:05 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 11:05 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
hae1en:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Hector:

The "autonomous will fomed white stuff" 

Fascinating!
Guys, I swear I still don't understand what is white stuff and colorful stuff. Maybe it's somewhere explained above, but just can't get it. And I don't mean the mechanism or source - but simply which part of sensate field with your eyes closed are you calling white stuff. And colorfull stuff. And why do you call it like this. I'm so sorry!

Ah, okay, sorry! The white stuff is like visual white noice that the mind can lump together into stars in a grid or other patterns. The colorful stuff seems to be something similar but less accessible. In hypnagogia I often see color swirls. Sometimes I can control them to some extent. It's like the mind knows less of limits when it's more into sleep mode. I dream in color. I have actually been able to draw in the air and see faint remnants of color there once, after improvising dance in a spontaneity home practice program course. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 11:19 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 11:19 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:

Fortunately, samsara is always already a diamond. emoticon


According to the Vimilakirti sutra, sure, but I’m not so sure I’m buying it. It’s kind of hard to sell that to my friend who has basically been lying in his own shit for two years now because he can’t get the support he needs.


Big toe is optional.


?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 11:47 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 11:47 AM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

I have seen a flower of life version of this spinning toroid. It was during a period when I had a lot of sacred geometry showing up. It may have been around the time of my stream entry as well. 

I can't say I know much more about it, other than to say that it makes sense that it appears when the "emptiness door" is triggered.

Being from a different practice, noticing fruitions (for example) rarely happens for me. Some times ago, after some practice, I was able to unreliably trigger something I think was probably what is being discussed, but it didn't have any characteristics that made me want to work at it further. It still happens occasionally of its own accord, but seems longer, (or sort of "smeared") than what you'd describe as "blip".

I suspect that for those in the shamatha-heavy traditions there is a different feel where these things come in.
Yeah, that sounds reasonable, as the pattern transcends boundaries between individual circles and everything is intertwined.

Interesting to hear about such variations. I'd say that "blip" only describes the impermanence door fruitions. They are the fastest and most sudden ones, and the most anticlimactic ones. And yeah, with higher concentration the moments before and after the cessation tend to be clearer and more interesting, even for the impermanence door.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 12:15 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 12:15 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Amen. When the one is ready, the other will appear.


I like the sound of that.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 12:20 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 12:20 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
hae1en:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
This is basically how sound hallucinations develop as well, which I know from experience; apparently, hallucinating one's own very specific mobile phone signal is very common among burned out autistic people.

I forgot to tell you! So after we had the exchange about distilling nada into light I've been also experimenting with nada sound and remembered my friend (a noble teacher BTW) told me about how he experienced the evolution of the tinnitus during his month long retreat. It changed into angel chours, which then of course was personalized, the voices were friendly in the beginning, but horrible and threatening at the end (he also complained of finding dead birds on the hermitage grounds and eerie synchronicities). The relationship lasted about 3 weeks. Finished one day after returning to the city. For some months he wasn't clear if this was his mind or separate beings.

I write about it in the hypnagogia thread - because hypnagoges can have auditory nature (divine ear?) and now I know the way they are formed. They are completely audible just as my jhana-born hypnagogia is photorealistic. Progress from tinnitus like nada sound, through scratching, buzzing, thumping sounds, through divine piano or harp music, through angelic chorus which can come from various points in the space all at once, through imitations of prozodic and gramma structure with word-salad content, through compeletely logical statements coming from male, female voices and groups. I can manipulate these appearances but only in terms of the source of sound (behind, left, right from center point) and in terms of male/female/group feature. I will write how to sculp in audio channel in another thread. 
Wow, interesting! There is a separate hypnagogia thread now? And a sound sculpting thread? I really need to catch up.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 12:23 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 12:23 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Hector:
I think I can confirm, I'm just noticed auditory hallucinations but started the water kasina thread to talk about that.
It's quite easily separated from mental generated ego voice because it tends to be a different voice and content free.

Do you have a mantra practice?

Oh, and a water kasina thread too! I have been looking for that in the past.

I don't have one specific mantra that I use systematically, but I do chant some longer mantras that I like and find helpful in my practice. I also use Tibetan warrior seed syllables from the Bön tradition. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:00 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:00 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
hae1en:

Linda, I think you wrote somewhere that you find imagery between 3J and 4J, right?

Yes, that’s right, and in fourth vipassana jhana.


But for me it happens most often when I finish sitting meditation - in the mornings, in order to go beyond the last conturs of the body - I assume a reclining position, lean against the wall and try to enter the dream state consciously.

For me it also tends to happen in the morning as I wake up, as a hypnopomp, I guess.

I usually end up in a lucid shallow dreamless sleep or simply lucid hypnagogic dream.

Yeah, that happens to me too.

The dreamless lucidity is difficult for me to distinguish from formless jhanas (all 4, including the last one, since sometimes there are no mental engines on even to recognize one is in, cuz language and perception don't work, only on the threshold when leaving one becomes self-aware).

I think of those criteria as relevant to all jhanas if they are hard. As for lighter jhanas, it seems to be possible to balance on the threshold and maintain verbal thinking, but to a lesser degree the higher up in the Jhanic arc you get.

BTW - can you think in formless jhanas or recognize you are in? 

I didn’t, not in any discursive way, but there is experience. When I come out of it, I translate it into concepts to the best of my ability.

How about in dreamless sleep? 

Sometimes I can, sometimes I can’t. I suspect that discursive thinking remains in light dreamless sleep and disappears as the sleep deepens.

I think that in commentaries vitaka and vicara (thinking) is described as arupa jhana factor. But in the suttapitaka - not! This is what constitutes the difference between hard and soft jhana, right?

I don’t know. Sounds reasonable. I have heard that a nimitta is required for the hard jhanas.

Anyhow, while in dreamless lucidity or in formless jhanas - there is this slide I told you about. And in the empty galaxy for a fraction of second one of the images is formed. A cobweb or tunnel. Field of stars. Indra's net. Puff of smoke. DMT-like mozaics or water waves textures covering whole screen. Rotating diamond or rotating rock on empty screen. Drops of blue, red or rainbow light. Flowing dust. All photorealistic and in 3D.

That sounds like form to me. If form appears in it, I would think of the subjective formlessness before that as a formless aspect of some of the formed jhanas, like Daniel does, because that makes more sense to me sequentially. I’m no expert, though. Regardless, spotting that slide is excellent phenomenology.

I learned to prolong them - this phase I start to consider vipassanizing formless jhana, because my insight learned how to find forms within what seems pure content-less awareness. In the beginning I realized there are subtle changes there in this seemingly empty field and energy currents and subtle evolution of illumination AND then these geometric flashes started to show up.

Aha, okay. Interesting. I could of course be wrong. I’m just saying how I use the concepts in documenting and making sense of my practice. When I was sucked into the formless realms one by one l sequentially, there was no way to change anything or finding anything outside that very specific focus. There was such a strong pull and (subjectively) no sense of agency whatsoever. It felt... inevitable. And the world was taken away, part by part, until not even nothingness was there. And of course that’s still a mind construct, but it seemed to be an inevitable mind construct, based on how the human attention system functions.

It's hard for me to return to believing in pure witness empty awareness right now, I think all there is are discreet mind-moments with gaps between them and this is what in fact constitutes jhana fabric, which at the first glance (or without insight) can seem continuous and unified.

Yeah, I don't believe that it is possible to experience anything that isn't a construct. I think we can get glimpses, sort of inbetween the lines, but those glimpses are still filtered and thus constructs. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:19 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:19 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I believe that there is a wide variety of people here, with a broad range of motivations, although the majority aim for awakening. The way I see it, one doesn't preclude the other. I want awakening but I don't mind having fun while waking up.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:23 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:23 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

Posts: 6652 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Hector:
The craziest thing happened after I let the thinking (conceptual thought?) about this topic go... I think I was scared...


Do you know what it was that scared you?

so I let it go last night and let my sleeping mind think about it and it got transformed into a weird artistic product. So this is more like
a fun story now  you can take with a grain of salt

The lessons of the various nimitas from the different sense modes I think are all about the creative process so
I think I have something for each of the 3 people who helped me,

For Tim its Living Word
0 - bible on page
1-  bible you read
2- bible you study (think)
3- bible you study and then feel (living word)
4 - bible you study feel and then let go (fire of the Spirit?)

For Linda it's visual, same route as me
0 - light white stuff
1 - noise dots 
2 - noise dots + thoughts = spirals like cartoony white net
3 - spirals + feeling = animated dreams, maybe the colorful lightning spirals
4 - animated dreams + letting go = the super clear 3D triangles
That's why the triangles and flowers keep on coming back in different forms, it's the same thing just
different levels of effort put into it, each component you add it gets more and more realistic.

For Hae1en it's sound (I deleted my water kasina post but here's what I experienced)
0 - sound of waves on the beach
1 - memory of sound of waves
2 - memory + thinking of sound of waves
3 - memory + thiking of sound of waves + feeling
4 - letting go of the feeling, I get beautiful music in my ear the next morning and get afraid WTF is this
I realize now it's just music, part of the creative process of my brain and nothing to worry about.

For me it was the unfolding of insight into creativity
0 - ideas on a page
1 - reading the idea
2- thinking about the idea
3 - thinking and feeling about the idea, then letting go
4 - idea starts to generate things by itself

I must have gotten the idea from the tree of life from Kaballah because it looks
suspiciously like the path that light 'vibration' takes on the map... basically another description of the creative process.
Each step just adds a component of something to the mix ... I guess I discovered 5 spheres from
playing with the fire kasina and if their map is correct there are 6 (or possibly infinitely many) more to the
exploration of the thought process.

I think because the principles are so uniform and consistent over the different modes it must be
how my mind thinks about how creative thoughts are formed and generate ideas by themselves.

It's basically why I didn't understand it ... I was trying to think about it and had lots of feeling but I didn't let it go
so they couldn't move on to the next step and so there was a lot of distress.

Anyway, fun resolution, thought you folks might enjoy the totally fictive but amazingly weirdly self consistent story
my dreaming mind made.


I think some of this resonates with me somehow but I don’t know what or how. Anyway, thanks!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:32 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 1:32 PM

RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Also realization... These things aren't recipes they represent what I feel about you folks lol. It' isn't  any insight for me  it's what my brain tells me I am feeling about you folks. My mistake was looking at the various other dictionaries when my mind has its own language about what kasinas triangles bibles trees etc are. I'm leaving the false realizations up so people can see where I made mistakes of accepting projections (what does group mind mean functions etc) and accidentally projecting on other people. In the end you have to execute some program and get a feel for it. It was a mistake to share any symbol because it really only makes sense to me and I shouldn't use any of your symbols because they feel different to you and we don't have any shared dictionary. Even people I share some dictionaries with are constructed differently. So please accept my apologies and thanks for coming along my ride in understanding this, finally get one it now and it's time to go.
No need to apologize! We all struggle with communicating our meditative experiences. Not knowing whether or not we are talking about the same thing seems to be the normal case. What, are you leaving? That's sad.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 3:02 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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... Robert Cialdini's book on Influence.

This book, which I just investigated, sort of reminds me of Nudge by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 4:57 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
I think my mistake was treating meditative experiences different from dream experiences.
(...)
My mistake is not clearly dilineating myself from others. 
(...)
I realize they were all attempts by the mind to be self consistent, so from inside the theory it really looks self consistent but it's actually an illusion. It's just the mind trying to be self consistent.
It takes stuff that I experience or hear during the day and builds a model of reality that tries to be consistent.
(...)
I just have to take a break and come back after I am clear about what is my stuff and what is others.

Hi Hector, it was interesting talking to you. Seems the time flies differently for two of us, your post gave me an impression that our experiments above lasted like months for you. I respect that, but also feel sad because for me it was like only a week...

I started using my version of percussion and holding a wooden handrail to go past duller aspects of hypnagogia (upholding a spark of light in the undercurrent of vision). Thank you for the tip. I will also experiment to see if feeling helps to give free will to sculpted forms beyond second screen. I'm happy we agree that four screens model fit not only fire kasina but also hypnagogia. After understanding it I also will keep the idea of white (stuff) noise / amorphic light dots / nada as a basic sculpting substance. And the idea that auditory and visual hypnagogia can function or be understood as nimittas in the different sense channels. 

I think I can understand your dissapointment with symbolic interpretations being just a set of arbitrary axioms fitting together - I remember having this realisation in the past, I felt betrayed and robbed, cheated and naive. Especially that very numinous events and insights, which were comforting and soothing my hope for the existence of God turned out to be hallucinations and delusions. This is how wisdom and trust in formless grew for me and how the hope for the end of constructions appeared. There is nothing to regret, your effort to make sense was pure for me. And even impressive. Hope to see you soon again. Or maybe you will just stick around in another form...
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Stirling Campbell, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 5:17 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

According to the Vimilakirti sutra, sure, but I’m not so sure I’m buying it. It’s kind of hard to sell that to my friend who has basically been lying in his own shit for two years now because he can’t get the support he needs.

It's a view that features frequently in many traditions. Simply put, Nirvana is not something or somewhere other than right here, right now. Believing it (as you point out) won't necessarily do you any good, but even just reading it might be enough to make it suddenly obvious.

?

In the sutra it is the Buddha's big toe that touches the ground and allows Sariputra to see beyond his everyday samsaric vision. It's supposed to be funny, IMHO. emoticon
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Stirling Campbell, modified 2 Years ago at 5/20/20 5:20 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

Yeah, that sounds reasonable, as the pattern transcends boundaries between individual circles and everything is intertwined.

Interesting to hear about such variations. I'd say that "blip" only describes the impermanence door fruitions. They are the fastest and most sudden ones, and the most anticlimactic ones. And yeah, with higher concentration the moments before and after the cessation tend to be clearer and more interesting, even for the impermanence door.

What are the other fruitions like for you, if they are different from "blips"? I ask, not being sure I can discern any difference in them.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 10:08 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hae1en, it dawned on me... what you describe as formless... is it the highest degree of deconstruction in vipassana rather than the formless realms in shamatha? Have I been misunderstanding what you are referring to? Because it sounds very much like digging deeper and deeper, beyond concepts, beyond phenomena, beyond the vibrational level and into something closer to nonduality. A "natural state" rather than jhana. 
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 11:40 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Hae1en, it dawned on me... what you describe as formless... is it the highest degree of deconstruction in vipassana rather than the formless realms in shamatha? Have I been misunderstanding what you are referring to? Because it sounds very much like digging deeper and deeper, beyond concepts, beyond phenomena, beyond the vibrational level and into something closer to nonduality. A "natural state" rather than jhana. 

(...)
Earlier:
That sounds like form to me. If form appears in it, I would think of the subjective formlessness before that as a formless aspect of some of the formed jhanas, like Daniel does, because that makes more sense to me sequentially.

When I was sucked into the formless realms one by one l sequentially, there was no way to change anything or finding anything outside that very specific focus. There was such a strong pull and (subjectively) no sense of agency whatsoever. It felt... inevitable. And the world was taken away, part by part, until not even nothingness was there. 

Yeah, I don't believe that it is possible to experience anything that isn't a construct. I think we can get glimpses, sort of inbetween the lines, but those glimpses are still filtered and thus constructs. 
Honestly speaking I don't know. I come from zen and for a very long time I had no vocabulary to distinguish jhana from one mind or no mind experience/stage/nature of reality. The insight I received in my lineage had a yogacarin flavour - which means I thought that pure formless mind is the unconstrued and source of all construction.

Then like two years ago I started to read (Forrest Tradition and Vissudhimagga) and practice what I call jhanas, including hard jhanas starting from mind generated nimitta, with no sensory input from so called outside world and lack of discursive thought. Became more often aware in dreamless sleep. The jhanas I got to know had a very, very wide horizon and were very spacious.

There is a difference between suttapitaka (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) and commentarial approach (Ajahn Brahm) in how they understand ekagatta in jhanas - onepointedness. Thanissaro Bkh says it should be translated as a gathering place (so the attention is fixed on one object but it can be very vast, he quotes suttas saying: "fixing attention on the whole bodily formations", which he understands as spreading breath in your whole body and the result in fourth jhana is that there is no place not suffused with luminous awareness. But other sources say onepointedness means a minimal point, like a tip of the needle, so basically "fixing attention on bodily formation" means fixing it on upper lip and disappearing in this one point of breath, which is a bodily formation itself, after nimitta appears and absorbs you. I am pretty sure Ajahn Brahm describes vast, blob like nimittas, but Bhante Gunaratna says choose a small dot nimitta. Anyhow two experiences are described in literature I think - vast galaxy spacious jhana and one point dense jhana. Any of them more familar to what you do?

The slides and flashes of sacred geometry started to appear for me in these spacious type jhanas. THEN I started to do more vipassana in them - on luminosity using onepointed (dimensionless point) attention (which I have to install inside before entering them, cuz inside there is no capacity to form a new intention). After that in what I used to call formless jhanas (no sense of body, no discursive thinking - but space, luminous awareness, and later reverse side of light: nothingness, and blocked perception of NPNYNP) even more geometry appeared, including the net and the dots of light we spoke about. They appear and disappear usually. But couple of times the attention got  totally immersed in fully developed strange realms, similar to this fractal underwater realm. One time after I zoomed in, digged into one of the eyes in the net. It's cool and scary but I have no idea what it is. Seems similar to LD or Fire Kasina realms.

Maybe I just lucidly fall asleep in jhana and this is what happens?

Or maybe it's some aspect of the "knowledge and vision" or "base of power" described in the suttas as divine eye and divine ear attainable in jhanas:
AN 4.41 And what is the development of concentration that… leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day (for him) is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that… leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. 
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Wings/Section0013.html#sifour
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Wings/Section0013.html#sisix

In dzogchen apparently some particular appearances signify dissolving certain self-aspects rooted in elements in the central channel. But for some reason none of these explanations allow me to rest the inquiry...
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 12:38 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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 I am pretty sure Ajahn Brahm describes vast, blob like nimittas, but Bhante Gunaratna says choose a small dot nimitta. Anyhow two experiences are described in literature I think - vast galaxy spacious jhana and one point dense jhana. Any of them more familar to what you do?

Just to chime in here - these are all familiar to me. They can occur naturally or, if I incline to it, they can be "wished" into the visual field. I'll say this - each stage in the process of getting to and remaining in jhana has a natural suite of visual content that tends to repeat, and each jhana itself has the same sort of thing going on. These familiar visual patterns are but one way I have of identifying jhana-like states. For example, early access to jhanas is usually accompanied by a small red dot in the center of the visual field. Entering the first jhana is usually signified by the appearance of a broad, horizontal band of blueish-purple haze.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 12:58 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Chris is that horizontal purple haze with eyes closed or open? With eyes open I do get a more darkish purple haze when absorption kicks in. It's rather round and if I'm to guess it would be around 20 cm in diameter. It's not solid but "cloud/smoke" like and dynamic. 
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Steph , modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 1:02 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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My nimitta is neon violet. It's nebulous and doesn't have a real shape - also has a dynamic quality to it.

For all the folks with a purple nimitta, I figure it's just Prince giving us a shout out from The Great Beyond.

(in a jokey mood today. hope I don't derail this).
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 3:07 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Steph S:
My nimitta is neon violet. It's nebulous and doesn't have a real shape - also has a dynamic quality to it.

For all the folks with a purple nimitta, I figure it's just Prince giving us a shout out from The Great Beyond.

(in a jokey mood today. hope I don't derail this).

Is that Nimitta? I never thought of it being a Nimitta as those are suppose to be bright white or golden.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 3:28 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Is the book worth reading?

Hector, do you mean Nudge?  Yes, if you do. The book was written by one of my economics professors at the Univ. of Chicago, Richard Thaler. He won the Nobel Prize in Economics recently, I think it was 2017. He explains what the book Nudge is about in this video.
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 4:51 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Papa Che Dusko:
Steph S:
My nimitta is neon violet. It's nebulous and doesn't have a real shape - also has a dynamic quality to it.
Is that Nimitta? I never thought of it being a Nimitta as those are suppose to be bright white or golden.

Great! Some more thoughts on nimittas finally! "My" nimitta (before I even started calling it as such) was violet or navy blue for couple of years and then it became mostly golden or white. I think Ajahn Brahm is describing violet/navy blue. I like the word "nebulous". It's similar to Papa's "cloud/smoke like". What do you both think, maybe these are your words for what Visuddhimagga calls "a nimitta being like a ball of cotton"? Similar to this kind of moving blob 

But how do you guys know it's not a learning sign as opposed to counterpart sign? The latter is supposed to be free of all flaws, there are sometimes ideally clear discs appearing with clear-cut edges in my experience. Sometimes I was wondering - maybe this is the real deal and the cloudy blobs are just learning signs?
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 4:56 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Chris Marti:
each stage in the process of getting to and remaining in jhana has a natural suite of visual content that tends to repeat, and each jhana itself has the same sort of thing going on. These familiar visual patterns are but one way I have of identifying jhana-like states.
Do you distinguish between or can you enter both of kinds of absorbtions these two traditions describe - vast and spacey vs. dense immovable point? Can you say your mandala/network flashed inside the jhana? Have you ever figure out what it means?
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Steph , modified 2 Years ago at 5/21/20 5:48 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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I figured this was violet nebulous was the nimitta. Maybe it's not. It looks like the moving blob in the second video link you posted. It sometimes gets really big, though and seems to flood the whole field of vision. Then sometimes in the center of it, there will be a rotating circular thing. It's kinda hard to describe. I almost want to say it looks like an obsidian rock with a bunch of different sides/edges because each of the different sides is a different shades of white, grey, and black - so it makes it look like it's shaded in 3D. However, it's all shaped in a circle. And it spins in a circular motion, almost like I'm looking down into the spinning like it's a vortex. When I read about you guys talking about the swirls / spinning stuff way up the post, I'm wondering if that's what it is and I'm just thinking it looks like a spinning rock because it's hard to describe, so my mind's trying to figure it out, and because of the different shades of grey.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 6:30 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Do you distinguish between or can you enter both of kinds of absorbtions these two traditions describe - vast and spacey vs. dense immovable point? Can you say your mandala/network flashed inside the jhana? Have you ever figure out what it means?

Each jhana has its own focus, some narrow and at one point, some broad, even over the horizon. In my experience it's the jhana one has entered that determines this. In terms of the mandala, that has only occurred when I've had first path related cessation and never at any other time. I suspect it's something related to the nature of the eye-sense and the anatomy, biology, and chemistry of how the nervous system and the brain interact to produce vision sense. Here's why I say this: the closest I've ever come to seeing anything similar is when my retina is being examined by an ophthalmologist. They shine an extremely bright light into the side of your cornea, and when they flash that light around you can see the pattern of veins and arteries reflected in the instrument they use to view your retina. That pattern of veins is eerily similar to the mandala. This could be a coincidence or this could be meaningful. I don't know.


Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 7:21 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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emoticon
hae1en:
I think I can understand your disappointment with symbolic interpretations being just a set of arbitrary axioms fitting together - I remember having this realisation in the past, 
x
Hector
I'm actually not all all disappointed with this! In fact very very very much relieved as this is my default mode for dream interview techniques I apply to myself. I just didn't realize I have to treat meditative experiences the same way and when I reached that conclusion it was a huge relief. You see I wasn't just doing fire kasina, I was also doing various maps at the same time, so like double koan at the same time, random visual and also mixture of beliefs. This actually helped me see past the weird self reinforcing beliefs the various maps had on me. The conflicting maps of my math models, Tim, Linda and you and some other podcast on tarot actually helped me realize this, back to the elephant analogy again.


   The blind men and the elephant, you mean?  

Kinda like this ... if there are 3 belief systems, it's surfing the chaotic edge when I ping pong between them and how it felt to be deeply in the well of a held belief

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_fractal   




Now I'm curious what happens if someone goes really really really deep in one belief if they can come back out again or if it they make a black hole and fork off into their own reality. Like the flat earthers ending on a real flat earth?   

I'm not a bad subject for that question: born Roman Catholic, big time believer, heard God in the bells, not the wafer, altar boy in both Latin and English on the cusp of Vatican II, sick of that shit by 13, Buddhism at 17, 16 years of zen, kashmir shaivism, etc., the eastern loop so many of us take from our birth traditions; but looped back from matra to prayer in 1990, when i got an in-law apartment near St. Ann of the Sunset church (big ugly pink thing, with attached school, in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of SF, heard the bell for morning mass, and trotted on over there like Pavlov's dog to worship in the dark candle-lit predawn church with half a dozen olf ladies and a couple of fervent commuters in the business clothes. Did'nt take communion until i confessed for my 16 years of heathen idol worship (i actually just told him i had dovorced and broke down sobbing. The priest waited and said, basically, it vtakes two to make a divorce and gave me rgeee hail Marys, and Our Father, and a good Act of Contrition as penance. I took up something like centering prayer, but still intgratinjg my long-time breath attention with the mantra, whic was now a prayer, and no fucking difference as far as i'm concerned, though the CP have to cover their ass with the Church conservatives who suspect eastern heresy or new-agism at the drop of a wrong word.  And thirty years of pretty much the same evolving prayer since then.
Also be careful, I constructed all these tools from a huge number of random things to understand myself. If you try them I am not sure what it would do, it would be like running code from an alien civilization that borrowed code from 5 others.

oh, now you tell me! GThis Andromeda yechnique has Fucked Me Up!

love, tim
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 10:06 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
I think my mistake was treating meditative experiences different from dream experiences.
I'm reasonably well versed with how to handle dreams, but didn't realize meditative experiences were the same so I didn't
use the same skill set of realizing when I am adopting someone else's  symbology, like from a mystical text.

My mistake is not clearly dilineating myself from others. The fire kasina practice was interesting
because it helped me experience the psychological experience of "commitment to consistency"
where the mind tries to make sense of random stuff, tries to make structure out of noise and then
somehow builds it into a seemingly consistent framework but in actually is nonsense. It's how a lot of modern
day manipulation is done, using self identity to influence people, see Robert Cialdini's book on Influence.

Going through the steps allowed me to see that within the process it's really hard to see that it's
nonsensical (basically the dots in kasina is noise) but once I switched back to my dream methods I realized it was just 
a mechanism that the mind uses to make sense out of stuff and it invents all these self consistent rules to
explain the contraditions. I think the same mechanism a koan does, but again I don't want to use someone else's symbols.
It generated several different hypothesis from how things work like math, different models of mind, mystical frameworks from
kaballah,  tarot, a theory of how jhanas work but now I realize they were all attempts by the mind to be self consistent,
so from inside the theory it really looks self consistent but it's actually an illusion. It's just the mind trying to be self consistent.
It takes stuff that I experience or hear during the day and builds a model of reality that tries to be consistent.
By switching around during the week I finally caught on to what it was doing.

I want to also be clear that this is my conclusion and when you run the same program you'll probably come to some other
conclusion because your mind works differently from mine.

I just have to take a break and come back after I am clear about what is my stuff and what is others so I don't
accidentally project or be projected upon in the future. My discomfort and deleting stuff was unconscious
response to feeling guilt about the projection but not knowing why, but now I am conscious about it. 
I don't think there is a clearcut boundary between being asleep and being awake. It's just that some dreams are more collectively overlapping than others. 

Yeah, sometimes it can be tricky to distinguish phenomenology from interpretations. 

Making structures out of noice is very much what the mind does habitually, I think, which is why sound hallucinations are basically normal sound processing, albeit wired up.

Okay. If you ever feel that I project stuff onto you, you are welcome to say so. Respecting people's boundaries is important to me.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 10:15 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Stirling Campbell:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

According to the Vimilakirti sutra, sure, but I’m not so sure I’m buying it. It’s kind of hard to sell that to my friend who has basically been lying in his own shit for two years now because he can’t get the support he needs.

It's a view that features frequently in many traditions. Simply put, Nirvana is not something or somewhere other than right here, right now. Believing it (as you point out) won't necessarily do you any good, but even just reading it might be enough to make it suddenly obvious.

?

In the sutra it is the Buddha's big toe that touches the ground and allows Sariputra to see beyond his everyday samsaric vision. It's supposed to be funny, IMHO. emoticon

I know, but there are very different ways of framing it, resulting in very different implications, some of which can be harmful depending on the context. Sometimes it's just more appropriate to lend a hand or two than to poke with one's toe, especially if you're not really a Buddha.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 10:30 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Stirling Campbell:

What are the other fruitions like for you, if they are different from "blips"? I ask, not being sure I can discern any difference in them.


First of all, I’m not sure what you mean when you say ”blip”. I would be interested in hearing more about your phenomenology. I have impermanence door fruitions that come back with a beep, an actual tone together with sort of an electrical surge and a gradual powering up of the perception. At one time it was preceded by three rapid visuals: vibrating strings, waves, and particles gathered around a black hole. Then everything vanished into the black hole. I have had a not self door fruition in which I was the toroid rotating in a way that turned me inside out. I have had perception and consciousness being torn away from me gradually, fiercely and in a drawn-out way in the suffering door. Stuff like that. When there is just a blip, I usually don’t count it as a fruition because it could be anything. I try to maintain high standards in order not to fool myself. I find that there is a large grey area when it comes to impermanence door fruitions, though, because they are the trickiest ones to distinguish from the kind of subjective blip that only marks the transition between two different mind states.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 10:31 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Believe it or not my crazy brain incorporated these two images, which helped me realize it was
the same kind of ideas catching fire and going off on their own.

They feel horribly logical and self consistent ourobus logic loops and feel like they should make sense
but these images and the song from Frozen, "let it go" helped me unmake them. Thanks Tim!
Another fire kasina generated thought loop put out.

I sometimes get loops like that too. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 11:09 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Hae1en, it dawned on me... what you describe as formless... is it the highest degree of deconstruction in vipassana rather than the formless realms in shamatha? Have I been misunderstanding what you are referring to? Because it sounds very much like digging deeper and deeper, beyond concepts, beyond phenomena, beyond the vibrational level and into something closer to nonduality. A "natural state" rather than jhana. 

(...)
Earlier:
That sounds like form to me. If form appears in it, I would think of the subjective formlessness before that as a formless aspect of some of the formed jhanas, like Daniel does, because that makes more sense to me sequentially.

When I was sucked into the formless realms one by one l sequentially, there was no way to change anything or finding anything outside that very specific focus. There was such a strong pull and (subjectively) no sense of agency whatsoever. It felt... inevitable. And the world was taken away, part by part, until not even nothingness was there. 

Yeah, I don't believe that it is possible to experience anything that isn't a construct. I think we can get glimpses, sort of inbetween the lines, but those glimpses are still filtered and thus constructs. 
Honestly speaking I don't know. I come from zen and for a very long time I had no vocabulary to distinguish jhana from one mind or no mind experience/stage/nature of reality. The insight I received in my lineage had a yogacarin flavour - which means I thought that pure formless mind is the unconstrued and source of all construction.
I have been wondering about that difference. I have the working hypothesis that Theravadan teachings involve a higher degree of distinction between different kinds of mindstates, turning the jhanas into more obvious constructs and more obvious altered states. It is confusing, though, because they use a very similar wording to other teachings. For instance, when Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche talks about boundless space, in my experience that is something very different from the arupa jhana of boundless space in the Theravadan tradition.



Then like two years ago I started to read (Forrest Tradition and Vissudhimagga) and practice what I call jhanas, including hard jhanas starting from mind generated nimitta, with no sensory input from so called outside world and lack of discursive thought. Became more often aware in dreamless sleep. The jhanas I got to know had a very, very wide horizon and were very spacious.
How do you define a nimitta, then? Because that seems to vary a lot. 

No sensory input from the outside world and lack of discursive thought occur not only in hard jhanas. It also happens in some forms of lucid sleep and in dull states (poor clarity). Also, it happens in vipassana at high levels of deconstruction (great clarity). Do they all have that same quality? Because my jhanas are very different from each other. 

I wonder how many different kinds of mindstates there are, and how many different dimensions would be needed for a systematic comparison.


There is a difference between suttapitaka (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) and commentarial approach (Ajahn Brahm) in how they understand ekagatta in jhanas - onepointedness. Thanissaro Bkh says it should be translated as a gathering place (so the attention is fixed on one object but it can be very vast, he quotes suttas saying: "fixing attention on the whole bodily formations", which he understands as spreading breath in your whole body and the result in fourth jhana is that there is no place not suffused with luminous awareness. But other sources say onepointedness means a minimal point, like a tip of the needle, so basically "fixing attention on bodily formation" means fixing it on upper lip and disappearing in this one point of breath, which is a bodily formation itself, after nimitta appears and absorbs you.

Yes. Personally I find that the geographically narrow focus works better in the lower nanas whereas the geographically wider focus works better in higher nanas. But both these cases are narrow focuses in the sense that you choose one phenomenon. You still have an object, such as the breath. In zhine without an object, there is no object whatsoever. There is openness. That gives a totally different feel to the absorbed state.

I am pretty sure Ajahn Brahm describes vast, blob like nimittas, but Bhante Gunaratna says choose a small dot nimitta. Anyhow two experiences are described in literature I think - vast galaxy spacious jhana and one point dense jhana. Any of them more familar to what you do?

The vast galaxy spacious brightness, or something that fits the description, sometimes appears spontaneously for me in what I think of as nondual absorptions, which I don’t count as shamatha jhanas. If I remember correctly, that time when I focused on the nada sound in shamatha, it transformed into a one point dense nimitta which grew both in intensity and size until it was everywhere.



The slides and flashes of sacred geometry started to appear for me in these spacious type jhanas. THEN I started to do more vipassana in them - on luminosity using onepointed (dimensionless point) attention (which I have to install inside before entering them, cuz inside there is no capacity to form a new intention). After that in what I used to call formless jhanas (no sense of body, no discursive thinking - but space, luminous awareness, and later reverse side of light: nothingness, and blocked perception of NPNYNP) even more geometry appeared, including the net and the dots of light we spoke about. They appear and disappear usually. But couple of times the attention got  totally immersed in fully developed strange realms, similar to this fractal underwater realm. One time after I zoomed in, digged into one of the eyes in the net. It's cool and scary but I have no idea what it is. Seems similar to LD or Fire Kasina realms.

Maybe I just lucidly fall asleep in jhana and this is what happens?

I really don't know. I wasn't intentionally doing shamatha when they showed up for me. I was doing vipassana, or at least I thought so. I did focus on mental stuff, though. Michael Taft gave me the assignment to focus on see in, hear in and feel in. This was before stream entry, and at that time when I meditated my mind was rather silent and serene. I had been dealing with thoughts and feelings of that layer in therapy already and it seemed pretty clean (whereas it turned out to be chaos deeper down). The only thing that showed up for me with that focus at that time was tactile bubbles, inner light and nada sound. I would focus on all these three modes simultaneously. That's when the sacred geometry and stuff like that started to show up. 


Or maybe it's some aspect of the "knowledge and vision" or "base of power" described in the suttas as divine eye and divine ear attainable in jhanas:
AN 4.41 And what is the development of concentration that… leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day (for him) is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that… leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. 
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Wings/Section0013.html#sifour
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Wings/Section0013.html#sisix

In dzogchen apparently some particular appearances signify dissolving certain self-aspects rooted in elements in the central channel. But for some reason none of these explanations allow me to rest the inquiry...

I do believe that it’s possible to tap into some kind of collective subconscious and thereby gain unpersonal wisdom. It can be tricky, though, to distinguish what is genuine wisdom and what is misleading shiny stuff.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 11:17 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Steph S:
My nimitta is neon violet. It's nebulous and doesn't have a real shape - also has a dynamic quality to it.


I have that too but I always thought of it as hypnagogia and a tell for alpha waves kicking in. I don't count it as a nimitta because it is continually morphing and isn't centered. Still, it seems to come together with first jhana quite often, perhaps especially when I focus on the breath. It's like the breath turns into flourescent violet. Come to think of it, maybe the jhanic flourescent violet manifests differently from the hypnagogic flourescent violet? I may need to investigate that. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 11:19 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Papa Che Dusko:
Steph S:
My nimitta is neon violet. It's nebulous and doesn't have a real shape - also has a dynamic quality to it.

For all the folks with a purple nimitta, I figure it's just Prince giving us a shout out from The Great Beyond.

(in a jokey mood today. hope I don't derail this).

Is that Nimitta? I never thought of it being a Nimitta as those are suppose to be bright white or golden.
I thought so too. I have heard that there is a huge infected debate about that, though. I try to only use stipulative definitions, describing how I personally use a word, to avoid battles. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 11:24 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:
Papa Che Dusko:
Steph S:
My nimitta is neon violet. It's nebulous and doesn't have a real shape - also has a dynamic quality to it.
Is that Nimitta? I never thought of it being a Nimitta as those are suppose to be bright white or golden.

Great! Some more thoughts on nimittas finally! "My" nimitta (before I even started calling it as such) was violet or navy blue for couple of years and then it became mostly golden or white. I think Ajahn Brahm is describing violet/navy blue. I like the word "nebulous". It's similar to Papa's "cloud/smoke like". What do you both think, maybe these are your words for what Visuddhimagga calls "a nimitta being like a ball of cotton"? Similar to this kind of moving blob 

But how do you guys know it's not a learning sign as opposed to counterpart sign? The latter is supposed to be free of all flaws, there are sometimes ideally clear discs appearing with clear-cut edges in my experience. Sometimes I was wondering - maybe this is the real deal and the cloudy blobs are just learning signs?
I sometimes refer to my more bloblike and cloudy centered lights as nimitta embryos. 

I thought learning signs and counterpart signs were specific to kasinas, but maybe I misunderstood that? I haven't done much reading of original texts, so I'm definitely not a scholar with regard to this.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 11:30 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Steph S:
I figured this was violet nebulous was the nimitta. Maybe it's not. It looks like the moving blob in the second video link you posted. It sometimes gets really big, though and seems to flood the whole field of vision. Then sometimes in the center of it, there will be a rotating circular thing. It's kinda hard to describe. I almost want to say it looks like an obsidian rock with a bunch of different sides/edges because each of the different sides is a different shades of white, grey, and black - so it makes it look like it's shaded in 3D. However, it's all shaped in a circle. And it spins in a circular motion, almost like I'm looking down into the spinning like it's a vortex. When I read about you guys talking about the swirls / spinning stuff way up the post, I'm wondering if that's what it is and I'm just thinking it looks like a spinning rock because it's hard to describe, so my mind's trying to figure it out, and because of the different shades of grey.
Before I go to sleep, I watch the hypnagogic swirls that are all over the place, and the different bright white sparks, and whatever lights appear, and sort of make them all come together into a sphere that spins around just like you describe, and gradually calms down. That is part of sleep yoga as taught by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. Thus it seems like the one thing can transform into the other thing. I think of it as collecting my thoughts and disentangling them into a more ordered whole that gradually transforms into pure awareness, ideally.  
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 11:39 AM
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Chris Marti:
Do you distinguish between or can you enter both of kinds of absorbtions these two traditions describe - vast and spacey vs. dense immovable point? Can you say your mandala/network flashed inside the jhana? Have you ever figure out what it means?

Each jhana has its own focus, some narrow and at one point, some broad, even over the horizon. In my experience it's the jhana one has entered that determines this. In terms of the mandala, that has only occurred when I've had first path related cessation and never at any other time. I suspect it's something related to the nature of the eye-sense and the anatomy, biology, and chemistry of how the nervous system and the brain interact to produce vision sense. Here's why I say this: the closest I've ever come to seeing anything similar is when my retina is being examined by an ophthalmologist. They shine an extremely bright light into the side of your cornea, and when they flash that light around you can see the pattern of veins and arteries reflected in the instrument they use to view your retina. That pattern of veins is eerily similar to the mandala. This could be a coincidence or this could be meaningful. I don't know.


Hm. I saw mandala-like chrystal clear images in fourth vipassana jhana before what I count as my stream entry. I remember that at one of the occasions, the mandala-like images were flashing by in rapid succession, though, just like in descriptions of the impermanence door. Maybe it was in fact my first fruition although I didn't notice the actual blip. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 11:42 AM
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Hector:
After I read "blip" the kasina construct became a story teller.

Now it claims to be prometheus and wants to give me pandora's box. I don't have enough knowledge
about greek mythology so it sort of burns itself out.

Also, don't worry about projecting... I think it's inevitable, any output becomes an input or a new spark, my current curiosity 
is just to see how the interactions with people work. The fire kasina is like a story teller now. I want to see how many
kinds of story it tells before it the loop vanishes.

How does this storytelling manifest?
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/22/20 1:28 PM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
You mean experientially? With all the language I'm familiar with, mostly visual and conceptual. I already know how
to talk to my brain in some ways, what I learnt here was like the gas pedal, when it's getting too hot and when to back off
and learning how to use different things as seeds, right now I'm using relationships and mythology as seeds but now I know
when I've gone too far down a path and when to back up.

If you mean the mechanism, I don't really know but my shallow belief loop is new neurons growing.

shallower still, most likely, but i think you're probably right. I think with the storyteller incarnation of faith you may have found the pitch perfect center point of indra's web, where action is non-existent and wotk is done everywhere.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/23/20 3:27 AM
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Hector:
I think I unrolled to the top level of metaphor and cooled down my system
It really does feel like the usual process I use for asking questions about myself using dreams, but in between
it generates a lot of different, rich and beautiful metaphors with lots of different beautiful pictures.

The assumptions it was shattering I think wasn't about self or existence or magic or habit changing (or maybe it was
at those levels?). At this final level it was assumptions and illusions about *other people* that was shattered.
About not assuming I knew what was in other people's minds. I think this is the current steady
state the kasina cooled down to.

So for me, the 'heat' of the kasina system is like Gibbs sampling, a method of exploring how I feel about something.
At really high energy states it generates all sorts of theories and feels and stories and mythologies
and it's really interesting to explore because I get to experience the completeness of feel of a mythology,
in this case what it feels like if a wikipedia constructed understanding of meditation + math was real.

At the high energy states it explores points of view of other people, and shows me what it could possibly feel from
another person's point of view, of course an illusion because I don't know how anyone feels.
I think my mind just rejects each and every belief but each time it gets
closer and closer to how I actually feel about something. At the end when the insight cycle completes
I get the 'aaaaahhh' feeling and know the solution is correct and it tells me ... this is the belief
you settle on ... not the shattering of illusion of self or belief maps or a new system of magic or a new way of seeing
or a tool for analyzing organization behaviour (maybe they are all true? I don't know) but the belief that I finally picked as an explanation was I shouldn't assume I know other people's minds.

Anyway, I really do have a repeatable method of insight now ... but it's like an experiential belief explorer now I think,
I'm not sure if any of the intermediate explanations made sense or if they were real... I think they did at the time but my mind didn't accept
them and it didn't feel right. The intermediate stories were really fun and interesting though and I chose not to accept the stories
completely until I found one that fit some criteria the best which is, it's probably better for me to ask what
people mean than assume that a thing is the same thing between people. It really did turn out to be a useful tool in interacting with people.

well, thank [arbitrary Name for wherever it is that receives cosmic gratitude].
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/23/20 3:29 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/23/20 4:54 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
You mean experientially? With all the language I'm familiar with, mostly visual and conceptual. I already know how
to talk to my brain in some ways, what I learnt here was like the gas pedal, when it's getting too hot and when to back off
and learning how to use different things as seeds, right now I'm using relationships and mythology as seeds but now I know
when I've gone too far down a path and when to back up.

If you mean the mechanism, I don't really know but my shallow belief loop is new neurons growing.
Yeah, I meant experientially, so you answered my question. 

Cool.

It might be a good idea, though, to consider that storytelling can never give any ultimate insight. Storytelling constructs rather than deconstruct s, for good and for bad. It's a creative force. I believe that there's a need for both deconstruction and construction. Mere deconstruction without any room for construction tends to develop into destruction. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/23/20 11:49 AM
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I loved the Chinese monkey king children's stories as a child, and I still have a soft spot for that trickster. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/23/20 2:45 PM
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That's cool. It was a pleasure. I think the ideas are your own, though (or maybe they came from that alien squid), because I surely did not think of that. On the other hand, nothing is ever our own. It's all an interplay (dependent origination), and I enjoyed the play. I'm pretty sure Tim did too. He's a seed planter too, as am I. 
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hae1en, modified 2 Years ago at 5/25/20 8:42 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
hae1en:
Honestly speaking I don't know. I come from zen and for a very long time I had no vocabulary to distinguish jhana from one mind or no mind experience/stage/nature of reality. The insight I received in my lineage had a yogacarin flavour - which means I thought that pure formless mind is the unconstrued and source of all construction.
I have been wondering about that difference. I have the working hypothesis that Theravadan teachings involve a higher degree of distinction between different kinds of mindstates, turning the jhanas into more obvious constructs and more obvious altered states. It is confusing, though, because they use a very similar wording to other teachings. For instance, when Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche talks about boundless space, in my experience that is something very different from the arupa jhana of boundless space in the Theravadan tradition.
(...)
No sensory input from the outside world and lack of discursive thought occur not only in hard jhanas. It also happens in some forms of lucid sleep and in dull states (poor clarity). Also, it happens in vipassana at high levels of deconstruction (great clarity). Do they all have that same quality? Because my jhanas are very different from each other. 

I wonder how many different kinds of mindstates there are, and how many different dimensions would be needed for a systematic comparison.
(...)
Yes. Personally I find that the geographically narrow focus works better in the lower nanas whereas the geographically wider focus works better in higher nanas. But both these cases are narrow focuses in the sense that you choose one phenomenon. You still have an object, such as the breath. In zhine without an object, there is no object whatsoever. There is openness. That gives a totally different feel to the absorbed state.

The vast galaxy spacious brightness, or something that fits the description, sometimes appears spontaneously for me in what I think of as nondual absorptions, which I don’t count as shamatha jhanas. If I remember correctly, that time when I focused on the nada sound in shamatha, it transformed into a one point dense nimitta which grew both in intensity and size until it was everywhere.
(...)
The only thing that showed up for me with that focus at that time was tactile bubbles, inner light and nada sound. I would focus on all these three modes simultaneously. That's when the sacred geometry and stuff like that started to show up. 


So this is a super interesting topic on various mind states and their blends across traditions. Differences and similarities between nondual states vs formless attainments, onepointed concentration vs open awareness, vipassana jhanas vs samatha etc. 

This is one of the most interesting topics for me these days and I wish to continue, however this thread became very busy with ideas concerning imagery, metaphors and lucid dreaming and blips and adding more might be too confusing. At least for me. 

But I found this is a similar thread: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5845469 - Non dual realization without stream entry.

We might want to continue there or I will find another way...
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/25/20 9:44 AM
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Hector:
When I click on it I can't see anything


did we ever manage to get you hooked up? i assume not, since you're not there yet. email me again.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/25/20 11:39 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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hae1en:

So this is a super interesting topic on various mind states and their blends across traditions. Differences and similarities between nondual states vs formless attainments, onepointed concentration vs open awareness, vipassana jhanas vs samatha etc. 

This is one of the most interesting topics for me these days and I wish to continue, however this thread became very busy with ideas concerning imagery, metaphors and lucid dreaming and blips and adding more might be too confusing. At least for me. 

But I found this is a similar thread: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5845469 - Non dual realization without stream entry.

We might want to continue there or I will find another way...


That’s one of my main interests too, possibly my number one interest. I would be glad to continue the exchange. However, with regard to the topic of non-dual realization specifically without stream entry, I’m not sure that I have much to contribute with, but I’ll take a look.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/26/20 6:09 AM
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Hector:
Closing this off with what works for me in this stage of life with my current mind, weirdly back to the beginning again



lol, don't you dare start deleting posts, man. leave a legacy of great conversation here.

fire kasina now becomes fire of the Holy spirit for rebuilding when I feel dry

You have been a mythic poet waiting to happen, lol.
 I finally found a good seed for all the white stuff dream matter and sounds for my dreams ... basically the book of John.
every night I participate in making a story of creation .... that's why the process works for me ... I'm taking the light
and sound of creation (acquired signs) and watching it blossom with into beautiful dreams ...

yes, you did the ground work, mastered the play of light and the play of sound in themselves. Now, so what? In the beginning was the Sound that made the Light.

the thought / feel loops are made of love
And the Sound saw the Light, and said that it was Good.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

amen.

love, tim
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/30/20 3:02 AM
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RE: Kasinas, Hypnagogia and other imagery

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Hector:
Sorry, sorry I thought it was my conceptual 4th door .... I still don't get everything it's very mysterious and very magical.
I didn't guess starting out as a computer scientist would Snow Crash me into speaking Enochian

i'm just a wandering Jew, myself. But i actually thought this might be coming, which is why i'm sitting under this beach umbrella smoking and drinking a cold one, and you're running around the cosmos like a Roche Limit violator with the hounds of space and time on his ass.

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