3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

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Ward Law, modified 11 Months ago.

3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 123 Join Date: 9/7/15 Recent Posts
I like to hear comments on guru-slayer Joday Radzik's take on what is, and what is not, enlightenment. His latest essay is here:
https://medium.com/@kalieezchild/3-simple-ideas-about-enlightenment-cover-it-all-ec7a46c49aa8

Martin, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
It seems that he has mistaken awareness for enlightenment and it sounds like that may be because that is as far as his exploration has progressed. All the things he says in the article are true if you change the word "enlightenment" to "awareness." Awareness is great and his is right to celebrate it. Some might include it in a broad spectrum of possible enlightenment stages. But there also much more radical shifts in perception that can occur and, significantly, these shifts are permanent. If you become aware, as he apparently has, you can be aware one minute and then unaware (deluded) the next. It is true that, once a person has become aware, they always have the knowledge that awareness can be turned on, like a light. But it has to be tuned on. It doesn't stay on. Enlightenment is typically used to refer to permanent changes in perception that never go "off."
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terry, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ward Law:
I like to hear comments on guru-slayer Joday Radzik's take on what is, and what is not, enlightenment. His latest essay is here:
https://medium.com/@kalieezchild/3-simple-ideas-about-enlightenment-cover-it-all-ec7a46c49aa8



aloha ward,

   It's poppycock, to use radzik's term. He tries to conceptualize the non-conceptual, and characterize it as "an envelope" for the ego. This approach is fundamentaly flawed, as it confuses the truly empty with forms of emptiness. This is conceptual "enlightenment" with no juice or life. The heart of compassion informs the intellect, not the reverse.

   Probably the most significant error in this kind of thinking is the assumption that all delusory ideas are equally avoided by the enlightened. It is undeniable that virtue and vice are equally delusory, yet an enlightened person embraces virtue and eschews vice. The sort of thinking advocated by radzik fails because it is ego-centered rather than god-centered. He assumes what is right for me is right. He has no concept of sacrifice, worship, or devotion. No love or gratitude. No heart or soul. Just non-concepts and concepts.

   He appeals to the grasping ego, not the loving heart-mind.

terry



tao te ching, trans mitchell


21.
The Master keeps her mind 
always at one with the Tao; 
that is what gives her her radiance.
The Tao is ungraspable. 
How can her mind be at one with it? 
Because she doesn't cling to ideas.
The Tao is dark and unfathomable. 
How can it make her radiant? 
Because she lets it.
Since before time and space were, 
the Tao is. 
It is beyond is and is not. 
How do I know this is true? 
I look inside myself and see. 
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terry, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
Ward Law:
I like to hear comments on guru-slayer Joday Radzik's take on what is, and what is not, enlightenment. His latest essay is here:
https://medium.com/@kalieezchild/3-simple-ideas-about-enlightenment-cover-it-all-ec7a46c49aa8



aloha ward,

   It's poppycock, to use radzik's term. He tries to conceptualize the non-conceptual, and characterize it as "an envelope" for the ego. This approach is fundamentaly flawed, as it confuses the truly empty with forms of emptiness. This is conceptual "enlightenment" with no juice or life. The heart of compassion informs the intellect, not the reverse.

   Probably the most significant error in this kind of thinking is the assumption that all delusory ideas are equally avoided by the enlightened. It is undeniable that virtue and vice are equally delusory, yet an enlightened person embraces virtue and eschews vice. The sort of thinking advocated by radzik fails because it is ego-centered rather than god-centered. He assumes what is right for me is right. He has no concept of sacrifice, worship, or devotion. No love or gratitude. No heart or soul. Just non-concepts and concepts.

   He appeals to the grasping ego, not the loving heart-mind.

terry



tao te ching, trans mitchell


21.
The Master keeps her mind 
always at one with the Tao; 
that is what gives her her radiance.
The Tao is ungraspable. 
How can her mind be at one with it? 
Because she doesn't cling to ideas.
The Tao is dark and unfathomable. 
How can it make her radiant? 
Because she lets it.
Since before time and space were, 
the Tao is. 
It is beyond is and is not. 
How do I know this is true? 
I look inside myself and see. 

   I should note that appealing to the grasping ego versus appealing the loving heart-mind is the reason why radzik is published, known, and commented on. Grasped.

t
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Not two, not one, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 903 Join Date: 7/13/17 Recent Posts
Hey Ward, it is one part of the picture - the sensory part. But it leaves out the deconstruction of the feedback mechanism that makes us a slave to the sense of ego. And the many things associated with that task, such as purification of past karma, letting go of all the hopes and fears and dreams, and the final unconditional embracing of our true nature.

Malcolm
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Ni Nurta, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 656 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Theory goes like this:
After birth we are overwhelmed by all the sensual stimulation and too much control we have over our bodies and with it also mind. Most commonly used strategy to resolve this issue is creation of projected mind and inhabiting it, a kind of sandbox. In this simulated mind only parts of whole experience are projected as touch and controls are also made using touch. It is very simple and based on mapping functions from native mind to sandbox mind.

The main issue with this sandbox mind is that we get trapped in it. It is just too easy to get used to it to the point we not need to use native mind at all and once it is not active it does not project any interfaces to itself either. There is also nothing that can be done from within sandbox as it uses only touch and native mind is a bit more complicated.

When in sandbox mind and there are no projected interfaces to native mind then the only way to get out of sandbox is to simply use functions of native mind. Any function will do as long as mind that then activate is used for everything else. Using sandbox functions will reinforce sandbox and force native mind shut down and with it gone so are its interfaces.

-----------------------------------------------------
Radzik's article kinda talks about the same thing but call it "conceptual awareness" and "non-conceptual awareness". These concepts are typically used along things like self, no-self, etc. and it is because in sandbox mind concepts including sense of self create sensations of touch because all interfaces in it are touch based. Getting to non-conceptual no-self mind remove touch. By itself however non-conceptual or no-self mind is not equal to native mind and is another creation. There is nothing non-conceptual about our native minds. Quite the contrary, it have concepts and their presentation is just vastly improved... or rather it is not simplified. It is desire to experience mind more fully that sandbox mind removes that is source of suffering. Also without proper interfaces no proper optimization and maintenance can be done and mind badly need its optimization and maintenance. There is also difference in creating conditions to not interfere with how naturally mind can somehow work on itself and having all sensory and control interfaces made directly available.

ps. Scope of actual Enlightenment is much larger and include supermundane aspects of reality. I am enlightened for about 4.5 years.
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terry, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
Theory goes like this:
After birth we are overwhelmed by all the sensual stimulation and too much control we have over our bodies and with it also mind. Most commonly used strategy to resolve this issue is creation of projected mind and inhabiting it, a kind of sandbox. In this simulated mind only parts of whole experience are projected as touch and controls are also made using touch. It is very simple and based on mapping functions from native mind to sandbox mind.

The main issue with this sandbox mind is that we get trapped in it. It is just too easy to get used to it to the point we not need to use native mind at all and once it is not active it does not project any interfaces to itself either. There is also nothing that can be done from within sandbox as it uses only touch and native mind is a bit more complicated.

When in sandbox mind and there are no projected interfaces to native mind then the only way to get out of sandbox is to simply use functions of native mind. Any function will do as long as mind that then activate is used for everything else. Using sandbox functions will reinforce sandbox and force native mind shut down and with it gone so are its interfaces.

-----------------------------------------------------
Radzik's article kinda talks about the same thing but call it "conceptual awareness" and "non-conceptual awareness". These concepts are typically used along things like self, no-self, etc. and it is because in sandbox mind concepts including sense of self create sensations of touch because all interfaces in it are touch based. Getting to non-conceptual no-self mind remove touch. By itself however non-conceptual or no-self mind is not equal to native mind and is another creation. There is nothing non-conceptual about our native minds. Quite the contrary, it have concepts and their presentation is just vastly improved... or rather it is not simplified. It is desire to experience mind more fully that sandbox mind removes that is source of suffering. Also without proper interfaces no proper optimization and maintenance can be done and mind badly need its optimization and maintenance. There is also difference in creating conditions to not interfere with how naturally mind can somehow work on itself and having all sensory and control interfaces made directly available.

ps. Scope of actual Enlightenment is much larger and include supermundane aspects of reality. I am enlightened for about 4.5 years.


the camel driver has his plans; the camel has his own plans...
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Ni Nurta, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 656 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry:
the camel driver has his plans; the camel has his own plans...

Maybe it has but driver has superior weapons, intelligence and hand dexterity to use them... so camel will go exactly where drivers wants whether it likes it or not. Also camel is the kind of being that do not really mind as long as it is treated and fed well.

Besides in this case it is a matter of using or not using certain parts of brain in this or other way. There is no camel and no driver, only human being that is either more or less confused.

One thing to note: people are scared of leaving their comfort zone and the original reason to create it still causes fear to go out of it. Also any interfaces need some training in how to use them. Once you are enlightened this is not an issue because even if for some reason you find yourself in this mind state (it is not impossible, nothing out of original functionality is removed - enlightenment is not brain damage) you know there is nothing to fear and also you know how to use this native mind interfaces.

Going is then easy, just start using these interfaces even if they do not exist yet (or rather are not projected to consciousness). That will cause them to go out sleep and start projecting again. This would also be possible for any random person from the street though very unlikely to happen, at least on their own when no other person they meet uses their mind in that way.
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terry, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
terry:
the camel driver has his plans; the camel has his own plans...

Maybe it has but driver has superior weapons, intelligence and hand dexterity to use them... so camel will go exactly where drivers wants whether it likes it or not. Also camel is the kind of being that do not really mind as long as it is treated and fed well.

Besides in this case it is a matter of using or not using certain parts of brain in this or other way. There is no camel and no driver, only human being that is either more or less confused.

One thing to note: people are scared of leaving their comfort zone and the original reason to create it still causes fear to go out of it. Also any interfaces need some training in how to use them. Once you are enlightened this is not an issue because even if for some reason you find yourself in this mind state (it is not impossible, nothing out of original functionality is removed - enlightenment is not brain damage) you know there is nothing to fear and also you know how to use this native mind interfaces.

Going is then easy, just start using these interfaces even if they do not exist yet (or rather are not projected to consciousness). That will cause them to go out sleep and start projecting again. This would also be possible for any random person from the street though very unlikely to happen, at least on their own when no other person they meet uses their mind in that way.

   That reminds me of a story...

   There was a time when the head and the heart were having an argument over who was the boss of the body. The two argued and argued until everyone in the body was sick of it. Finally, the asshole opined, if anyone is boss here, I am. Head and heart scoffed, while the rest of the body looked on, interested. How are you the boss, they asked, you are the least of us, the bottom. The asshole replied, if I don't work, nobody works, and the asshole refused to move in order to prove his point. After a couple of days, head and heart were inclined to think and feel that he had a point. After a week, they were willing to call him boss, anything, just go back to work!

   Enlightenment is not a matter of mind control, for no one can control the controller, there is no one there. 

  The sufis say we have a pristine, perfect mind and an animal soul. The same idea is brought out in the ox-herding pictures of zen, and in koans. The mind is already perfect, so no effort needed there. The animal needs constant discipline, and after many years of practice, it becomes so tame it follows quietly without a rope.

  The mind is sterile, the body fecund. The mind is cool and the body hot. Heaven and earth, yin and yang. Enlightenment as we know it is the realm of the gods, a realm, a place to stay for awhile, leave our bodies behind. Being enlightened in this sense is the basis for the many instances we see of "gurus" and "arhats" behaving immorally or inappropriately, displaying desire and hypocrisy, and perhaps even annoying diligent practicioners of different ways.

   I don't know you or your enlightenment and am commenting in a general way. Anyone who asserts they are enlightened - except in very special circumstances - I suspect (if not assume) is operating from ego and hence 180 degs out. "I" am enlightened. 4 and 1/2 years of timelessness. Suspicious if not presumptively false. And of course, if you have to justify it, you are only in deeper.

  Give the camel my love, he does all the work anyway, the asshole.

   Perhaps you could comment on the obscure mystical quotes?

terry




V.

I. 63. avadhû, mâyâ tajî na jây

TELL me, Brother, how can I renounce Maya?
When I gave up the tying of ribbons, still I tied my garment about me:
When I gave up tying my garment, still I covered my body in its folds.
So, when I give up passion, I see that anger remains;
And when I renounce anger, greed is with me still;
And when greed is vanquished, pride and vainglory remain;
When the mind is detached and casts Maya away, still it clings to the letter.
Kabîr says, "Listen to me, dear Sadhu! the true path is rarely found."




VII.

I. 85. Sâdho, Brahm alakh lakhâyâ

WHEN He Himself reveals Himself, Brahma brings into manifestation That which can never be seen.
As the seed is in the plant, as the shade is in the tree, as the void is in the sky, as infinite forms are in the void--
So from beyond the Infinite, the Infinite comes; and from the Infinite the finite extends.

The creature is in Brahma, and Brahma is in the creature: they are ever distinct, yet ever united.
He Himself is the tree, the seed, and the germ. 
He Himself is the flower, the fruit, and the shade.
He Himself is the sun, the light, and the lighted.
He Himself is Brahma, creature, and Maya.
He Himself is the manifold form, the infinite space;
He is the breath, the word, and the meaning.
He Himself is the limit and the limitless: and beyond both the limited and the limitless is He, the Pure Being.
He is the Immanent Mind in Brahma and in the creature.

The Supreme Soul is seen within the soul,
The Point is seen within the Supreme Soul,
And within the Point, the reflection is seen again. 
Kabîr is blest because he has this supreme vision!
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Ni Nurta, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 656 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry:
Enlightenment is not a matter of mind control, for no one can control the controller, there is no one there.

Who told you such silly things? Did you invent this thought or did you merely read it somewhere?
You do realize that anything you read on Internet is bullshit?

I don't know you or your enlightenment and am commenting in a general way. Anyone who asserts they are enlightened - except in very special circumstances - I suspect (if not assume) is operating from ego and hence 180 degs out. "I" am enlightened. 4 and 1/2 years of timelessness. Suspicious if not presumptively false. And of course, if you have to justify it, you are only in deeper.
General rule is that person who thinks he/she is enlightened should not say he/she is enlightened. It does not apply to me because I am actually enlightned and if I claimed otherwise it would be totally disrespectful to everyone.

Suffering is caused by not experiencing experience which is there somewhere. Experience it and suffering will be gone as if it never existed - there, the thing Buddha was seeking but even more refined because apparently I am sharper... or more blunt. If you validate this then you be allowed to claim enlightenment also emoticon

Give the camel my love, he does all the work anyway, the asshole.

Yup, it truly seems the assholes do all the work round here ;)

Perhaps you could comment on the obscure mystical quotes?
yup

V.

I. 63. avadhû, mâyâ tajî na jây

TELL me, Brother, how can I renounce Maya?
When I gave up the tying of ribbons, still I tied my garment about me:
When I gave up tying my garment, still I covered my body in its folds.
So, when I give up passion, I see that anger remains;
And when I renounce anger, greed is with me still;
And when greed is vanquished, pride and vainglory remain;
When the mind is detached and casts Maya away, still it clings to the letter.
Kabîr says, "Listen to me, dear Sadhu! the true path is rarely found."

Most optimal path is the shortest one, and the shortest and most direct path is to not go anywhere. This is because the further you go the further you are from your destination even if the destination is not exactly where starting point was.



I. 85. Sâdho, Brahm alakh lakhâyâ

WHEN He Himself reveals Himself, Brahma brings into manifestation That which can never be seen.
As the seed is in the plant, as the shade is in the tree, as the void is in the sky, as infinite forms are in the void--
So from beyond the Infinite, the Infinite comes; and from the Infinite the finite extends.

The creature is in Brahma, and Brahma is in the creature: they are ever distinct, yet ever united.
He Himself is the tree, the seed, and the germ. 
He Himself is the flower, the fruit, and the shade.
He Himself is the sun, the light, and the lighted.
He Himself is Brahma, creature, and Maya.
He Himself is the manifold form, the infinite space;
He is the breath, the word, and the meaning.
He Himself is the limit and the limitless: and beyond both the limited and the limitless is He, the Pure Being.
He is the Immanent Mind in Brahma and in the creature.

The Supreme Soul is seen within the soul,
The Point is seen within the Supreme Soul,
And within the Point, the reflection is seen again.
Kabîr is blest because he has this supreme vision!

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terry, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
terry:
Enlightenment is not a matter of mind control, for no one can control the controller, there is no one there.

Who told you such silly things? Did you invent this thought or did you merely read it somewhere?
You do realize that anything you read on Internet is bullshit?




   I suppose that means you acknowledge that what you call "enlightenment" is actually "mind control." You make my point. As it is only ego which imagines it is in control, it is your ego which you imagine is enlightened.

   If that works for you, I don't have a problem with it. Lots of people use methods which amount to the ego attempting to control itself. KInd of self-defeating, I would think, but there you are. You could do worse than defeat yourself. It prepares you for surrender.

   I should have remembered you have no use for poetry.

terry



   
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Ni Nurta, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 656 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry... I do not want to sound rude but your opinions about me are completely out of topic

my views on mind are relevant to the ideas presented in linked article and that is why shared them
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terry, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
terry... I do not want to sound rude but your opinions about me are completely out of topic

my views on mind are relevant to the ideas presented in linked article and that is why shared them


   I had forgotten that we have had this conversation before.

   We won't have it again.


thanks for sharing,
t
nintheye, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 201 Join Date: 11/4/18 Recent Posts
Ward Law:
I like to hear comments on guru-slayer Joday Radzik's take on what is, and what is not, enlightenment. His latest essay is here:
https://medium.com/@kalieezchild/3-simple-ideas-about-enlightenment-cover-it-all-ec7a46c49aa8

This is what I wrote as a response: 

"It’s a nice try at laying it all out, but it doesn’t work. You can’t notice nonconceptual awareness. If you could, it would be conceptual. What you have done is created a concept called ‘nonconceptual awareness’ and then convinced yourself that you are noticing it all the time.

This is why your account does not include the standard understanding in all the nondual traditions of how recognition of the *real* nonconceptual awareness affects the understanding of the illusion of the ego."
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Jim Smith, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 958 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Ward Law:
I like to hear comments on guru-slayer Joday Radzik's take on what is, and what is not, enlightenment. His latest essay is here:
https://medium.com/@kalieezchild/3-simple-ideas-about-enlightenment-cover-it-all-ec7a46c49aa8




I think to accurately judge the article you have to have a basis for saying you agree or disagree. That basis would be a definition of enlightenment independent of his article. Then you could analyze the article to see how it applies to that definition.

What definition of enlightenment do you believe in?

My views of enlightenment are that it is measured by freedom from the ten fetters. Enlightenment is not something you have or don't have, it is something everyone has some amount of and some people have more or less of. Arbitrary milestones denoting "enlightenment", "awakening", or "streamentry" based on some kind of "BIG CHANGE" are misleading (harmful) because so many teachers acknowledge that people can become enlightened without knowing it, therefore such milestones are not always passed with an experience of a noticeable change. Anyone can increase their level of enlightenment (reduce their experience of suffering) by practicing meditation and mindfulness. I also think renunciation is helpful. Modern people seem to think they can have their attachments and be non attached. That contradicts the example of the Buddha who gave up his princely life and became a homeless beggar to achieve awakening. He continued to live that way for the rest of his life after awakening. I don't advocate radical renunciation - I only point it out so that people have realistic expectation about what is possible to achieve within their chosen lifestyle.
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
Ward Law:
I like to hear comments on guru-slayer Joday Radzik's take on what is, and what is not, enlightenment. His latest essay is here:
https://medium.com/@kalieezchild/3-simple-ideas-about-enlightenment-cover-it-all-ec7a46c49aa8


Things I agree with:

1. enlightenment is about noticing things in everyday life

2. spiritual culture criticisms, and how they make it overly complex

3. criticism of spiritual narratives and classification of experiences into cultural categories



Things i think can be improved:

1. 'non-conceptual awareness' as described in the essay indicates an incomplete realization.


2. energetic practices, some of the cultural baggage round these is excessive. but they are still valuable and can work when more simple mediation fails to produce progress. shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. 

3. no balancing of morality comments about nightclubs etc with undertanding of Sadhnas in spiritual practice



Overall I feel the authors level of realization to dismissiveness ratio is a bit high, I have similar dismissive tendencies tbh. I think these sorts of tendencies actually overall good  for spiritual insight and stuff (as opposed to having a reverant attitude) as long as also mix in a bit of honesty and humility.
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Milo, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: 3 Simple Ideas About Enlightenment Cover It All

Posts: 365 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Ward Law:
I lke to hear comments on guru-slayer Joday Radzik's take on what is, and what is not, enlightenment. His latest essay is here:
https://medium.com/@kalieezchild/3-simple-ideas-about-enlightenment-cover-it-all-ec7a46c49aa8


Things I agree with:

1. enlightenment is about noticing things in everyday life

2. spiritual culture criticisms, and how they make it overly complex

3. criticism of spiritual narratives and classification of experiences into cultural categories



Things i think can be improved:

1. 'non-conceptual awareness' as described in the essay indicates an incomplete realization.


2. energetic practices, some of the cultural baggage round these is excessive. but they are still valuable and can work when more simple mediation fails to produce progress. shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. 

3. no balancing of morality comments about nightclubs etc with undertanding of Sadhnas in spiritual practice



Overall I feel the authors level of realization to dismissiveness ratio is a bit high, I have similar dismissive tendencies tbh. I think these sorts of tendencies actually overall good  for spiritual insight and stuff (as opposed to having a reverant attitude) as long as also mix in a bit of honesty and humility.

Well said.

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