I was absent from this site for a while, realizing that I use this site as other internet sites -- to procrastinate and avoid facing myself! I still work on trying to finish off my third path but thought I would pose some questions here, since I'm about to head off to a week-long retreat at IMS in a couple of days.

Basically, my background is that I have been using dry insight up to second path. Then, I got more interested in practicing Jhanas. After struggling to recognize where I was on the Jhanas land for a while, I got back to read MCTB and finally realize that I, in fact, can access up to the sixth jhana quite easily for some time now. It seems from MCTB that you can contemplate in Jhanas up to the seventh jhana. My questions are the followings:

1) How do you investigate in Jhanas? Do you take a look at the quality of the Jhanas themselves, e.g. rapture, piti, awareness, equanimity, as opposed to the feelings or thoughts or bodily sensations as in dry insight? Can you give some examples of how you would investigate in each jhana?

2) Does it matter what Jhanas you use to investigate? Is it better to work in higher jhanas?

Also, last but not very related questions, this is going to be only my second week-long retreat since I started practicing. Do you have any suggestions for the retreat?

Thank you.

Hi Julie,

I'll take a stab at your questions. I take a rather straightforward (or direct) approach to these things; maybe it will make sense to you, maybe it won't.

That depends on whether you are attempting to validate your experience of them (i.e. figure out your perception of piti, sukha, equanimity et al in order to validate your experience and understanding of a samatha jhana state) or whether you've gotten past that point and are now attempting to use them to increase insight into phenomena (dhammas). So, you have two approaches that you can take.

The first four jhanas are all you really need to be clear enough in your understanding about in order to use them to perform insight meditation on Dhamma subjects (like the three characteristics and such). If you can clearly perceive the transition from the first to the second to the third to the fourth, you have enough experience to proceed onto vipassana meditation objects.

As far as examples go, I just watched whatever arose (went on) and made note of my perception of it. For example, I would notice when the mind reached an equanimous state with regard to phenomena and realize to myself, "Wow, this really works. The mind can become equanimous toward phenomena." I wouldn't necessarily verbalize this in the mind, just recognize that that was what was happening in that moment.


You are best advised to enter the fourth jhana as it is the most profoundly quiet, peaceful, unperturbed, and clear, and work on whatever insight object you have in mind to explore from there. It is the clarity of view (or insight) that you are after here. If you contemplate long enough on an insight object, it will sooner or later yield up its golden realization, and you will see it with absolute clarity (just as it is, without any biases or prejudices).


Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the opportunity of being in a secluded atmosphere with like minded people and make the best of it. If the meditation guides they have there know their business, they'll be able to give you an idea about what to do (unless you have your own agenda of things to accomplish worked out before hand). It's not every day you get the opportunity of having a week in which to examine your mind and thought processes outside of your normal often distracted living situation. Use that time wisely.

Good luck and let us know how things went.

In peace,
Ian

Thank you for your reply, Ian. If you don't mind, I have some further questions to make sure I understand what you mean correctly.



I love straightforward approach. Simpler method, like anapanasati, is more and more appealing to me.



When you said, "I just watched whatever arose (went on) and made note of my perception of it", you mean that you look into the experience that happens in the background while in jhanas, such as the body sensation, kundalini events, background thoughts, and etc, or any of the 4 foundations of mindfulness. Is this correct?



Is 4th jhana best here, because it's quiet, but you still have a sense of the body, as opposed to the formless jhanas? Also, do you advise to first rise up to the highest jhanas I can attain before slowly coming back down to 4th to do vipassana?

I think one reason I ask this question about investigation in jhana is because the other day while in access concentration, my mind was perfectly unperturbed. However, the mood I observed in the mind was plain dullness (I was going through one of the dark night stage then). Now when I rose up to 1st jhana, there was, by definition, an obvious contentment in the mind. When I directed the mind to move back to access, the dullness arose again. I guess in jhanas, I would not necessarily be able to perceive the mood as I would in access, and thus this might be some distortions in mood/ emotions I perceived. What I understand from your post is that these moods might not be the most important insight objects to care about, but rather the nana we are going through and the sensations that make up that particular nana. Does this sound about right?



That sounds like a good advice. I will follow this. Also, thanks for the reminder to use my time wisely!




I will report back then. Thanks again.

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. You watch whatever arises in the mind and KNOW it for what it IS. Simply and directly. Without any pre-conceived ideas about what it is getting in the way. Look at each event straightforwardly. (One type of pre-conceived idea might be "kundalini events." Just observe whatever happens without trying to define it using some mysterious description you've read or heard about. Describe whatever the event that occurs is to yourself straightforwardly, using simple terms that describe the occurrence exactly as it occurred. For example: "I felt my back get warm, and then it cooled down." Or: "There was a rush up my spine, which soon enough disappeared." Don't label it, in other words, like: "Oh, that was a kundalini event.")


Yes, to your first question.

As far as the second question goes, it is not necessary to do mental gymnastics while in jhana meditation. I know that people get real excited when they are first learning about these absorption states, and they want to experience what they read about in the discourses and personal essays by experienced meditators. But dhyana (jhana) is, in reality, only a deep concentration state and nothing more.

The Sanskrit word dhyana contains the root dhi, which means to "reflect, conceive and ponder over." In light of the context in which Gotama was likely speaking when he talked of dhyana, that context having to do primarily with the dispelling of ignorance, it is highly probable that this meaning of the word and the intent in which it was used took a great deal of its gravity from this connotation or interpretation. In other words, when he used the word jhana in the discourses, his intent was to communicate the degree of concentrated awareness necessary (the "reflective, pondering over" aspect of the mind) in order to dispel ignorance and thus foster mental awakening and recognition of "things as they are."

However, if it helps you to feel more proficient in being able to "rise up to the highest jhanas [you] can attain before slowly coming back down to 4th to do vipassana" then do as you see fit. It won't hurt. And you may learn something about your ability to pass through these states and be able to recognize them more clearly.


Did you notice what you said here? You said that in first jhana you recognized the mind as being in a "contented" mood. Then, as you backed down to what you perceived to be "access concentration," you perceived that "the dullness arose." You perceived (and described) both states pretty accurately, I would say. Why would you think that "I would not necessarily be able to perceive the mood as I would in access"? Did you think the contentment you perceived in jhana was a distortion? I think not. It was as real as the "dullness" that arose as you backed off. Give yourself more credit for the observations you are making.

Being able to clearly perceive these phenomena is what highly developed concentration states (like jhana type absorption) are all about. This is what they are used for. As mundane as that may at first sound or appear. As your practice becomes more mature, you will better appreciate the simplicity and ordinariness of what you are experiencing as it will be providing you with an unbiased and straightforward reading of the present reality (hopefully, of "things as they actually are," which is anicca, dukkha, and anatta.) If you are "seeing things as they are" then your emotions are not being unnecessarily moved (hence, equanimity of formations) by a distorted view of reality.

I'd say that being able to recognize "these moods...[as] insight objects" is pretty important, because it gives you instant feedback about the state of the mind in that moment. How they relate to the insight knowledges (nanas) is part of the realization process itself. You recognized them, and therefore they are your "knowledges." Being able to recognize them at all is the first necessary step toward attaining that insight knowledge. Fully realizing the truth of this is the next step. So, no, I don't agree with your interpretation/impression of what I wrote. I think they are very important. Can you see that?

Okay, I see your points, Ian. Basically, just note the bare attention of experiences and whatever arises whether they are the mood in jhanas, body sensations (pressure, vibrations, etc), feeling tones, etc. Then, perceive them as they are, as thoughts, feelings, etc.. This, in turn, gives rise to the knowledge and wisdom.

Thanks again for the reminders about the simplicity of things. It's funny that I always look for something complicated just to realize that it's actually here in front of me all the times. I guess going back to the retreat would be a good way to refresh my memories on basic instructions.

I will let you know how the retreat goes. I feel like I already get a good head start already ...

Now you've got the right idea, Julie. This direct approach will take you to where you want to go quicker. Because you are looking directly at phenomena and seeing it as it is, and not allowing the mind or pre-conception to filter the experience. Observing the bare phenomena directly gives you the true picture of what is there to be seen. No one can tell you that it is not true, because you've seen it first hand through your direct experience.


Gotama talked about this same approach (the simplicity of things) all throughout the discourses. All I'm doing is just reinforcing what he already spoke about. People looking for the complicated in things will eventually find it. Even if it doesn't exist in reality. Always be aware of this fact and deport yourself accordingly.

Think of it this way: If someone can convince you that something is more complicated than it actually is, then that person gains control of your thinking processes. They become the one who controls how you perceive reality, rather than you yourself. Always, always, always just observe the bare essence of phenomena. Don't make it out to be anything more than it is, and you will be fine. Just this is the path to true knowledge and wisdom, and eventually to peace and contentment with what is.

Have a good and fruitful retreat.

In peace,
Ian

I got back from the retreat a couple of days ago, so I thought I would share my experience here as promised.

The first 2 days:
My mind was really not interested in going into jhanas at all. In fact, I felt I could be very present in an expansive way (i.e., more whole body awareness) but felt lots of tension closing down my attention to specific details. I decided to follow my intuition and practice with open awareness.

3rd day:
I had an interview with a teacher. I was having a lot of pleasant experience, so he told me to observe the bliss, ease, rapture and other pleasant qualities of mind. We talked about controlling pattern, which I have been observing in daily life before retreat started as well. Also, we talked more about trying to stay more as observer.

I felt that I could close down my attention to details again, so I managed to enter and investigate in the 4th jhana as Ian suggested in the morning. Mostly, I felt a lot of pressure and tension at the stomach area, which has been trying to resolve itself for a couple of months now. It still kept moving spontaneously. My experience was really pleasant in the evening, so I decided to look at the pleasant qualities of my experience as I was instructed to do. Being an aversive type, I started to realize that I in fact almost never used these qualities as my primary object of investigation at all!

4th day:
I thought I had some perspectives in the morning, but in retrospect, I don't even remember what it was anymore! I got really excited and laughed for a long time. I had lots of thoughts but was aware of every single one of them. Other than this, I don't remember much what happened.

5th day:
My experience was at its peak today. I managed to enter the fourth jhanas every sit in the morning. (I generally don't do it in every sit because I love open awareness practice. I'm not sure it's a good idea!) In one of the sit, I could feel a lot of energy moving in my head, but it was quite different from before. The energy used to localize in only either the back of the head, the center, or the forehead. On that day, the energy seemed to connect all of these parts in the head. This triggered strongly my expectation for third path, which I had been noticing in a long time but stayed more in a background.

Just before I had an interview with a teacher, I noticed a little pop in my stomach. This, then, was followed by a cold and yet warm feeling throughout my body. This lasted for a while even throughout the interview. Anyway, I felt really confused during the interview with the teacher. I told him that I have been having exciting experience (of course, judging my meditation here) which from time to time triggered a sense that "something is about to happen". I kept telling myself that "nothing is special about this", which then lasted for a while, but it would always last long enough for me to say "maybe something is really going to happen this time" (translation: the path soon). I had been trying to let go of trying, but of course, like that is going to work! He told me that this path was really all about seeing the 3 characteristics, and I can try to see more into impermanence maybe. At the end, I said that I had been feeling like practicing compassion lately and thought I would do that instead of the metta practice.

I felt really spacy during metta meditation in the afternoon, which I tried to send compassion to myself without any success. After which was the walking period. I felt really frustrated for no reasons (although in retrospect, I think this is mostly because I had been expecting to finish this path in the back of my mind, and it seemed to play its part quite strongly on retreat.) I started to note frustration, frustration, ..., which at some points, induced self-compassion to arise. I started walking slower and slower until I finally came to a stop. The moment after was then an outpouring compassion for myself for the desire to get path; it was clear at that moment that that was a huge suffering. I, in fact, could not help myself but cried in compassion for the rest of the day.

6th day:
A teacher was giving an instruction for dealing with pain in the body. He said that one way to work with pain is to not to look at pain directly, but to open up to be aware of the whole body. I was not dealing specifically with pain, but my stomach still moved uncontrollably, so I tried the technique. This surprisingly helped me stop moving my stomach. I also realized that I unconsciously was trying the control the movement of my stomach by putting some tensions in my shoulders. I could feel energy moving through my stomach much easier then. From then on, it seems the tension/ pressure in that area began to slowly dissolve away as well. In fact, it felt really strange without tension/ pressure in that area now.

7th day:
It approached the last day of the retreat, so my subtle fear about daily life started to come to my consciousness again. I felt dull at first. I was trying to forcefully send compassion to myself without any success. Then, I finally stopped and told myself that if I did not feel like doing it, it's okay; I'm allowed to not do it. This, of course, was a better way to induce self-compassion than the first method. Compassion started to arise again. Then, the images of all of the subtle fear I have been having come to consciousness one after another. This happened during the break which I informally was doing lying down meditation, but since it already happened, I carried it to the next sitting period. It seemed I could hold all of these images lightly with lots of self compassion.

Overall, I think it was a wonderful retreat for me. I don't feel the wanting/ yearning for the path anymore. In fact, when it arose, it seemed that I stopped identifying with it now and could touch it lightly with compassion. I still felt some small resolving in energy around my stomach area, but the huge tension was mostly gone. I guess I would need to wait for it to resolve itself at its own time. No, I still have not reached the third path, but a quote that I kept passing by and seeing on the way to restroom sounds reasonable to me. It said, "Try not to expect anything. In this way, everything will open up to you." I guess I will believe this quote.

It sounds, generally, that you had a very good retreat experience and equally qualified meditation instructors there. I kind of expected that from IMS, but never having been there, I didn't know if it was true, but can only rely on other people's descriptions. Your description of what you experienced was very encouraging.

Excellent instruction from that instructor. The more you are able to dis-identify with it being "my" body, the more you will be able to just objectively observe the experience for what it is, without adding anything extraneous to the experience. That is a good sign.


More excellent instruction. Keeping it simple and focused on the essential.


Pain is easier to deal with once we lose our self-identification with it and consider it to be but an aspect of the body that the body needs to work through in those moments. Being aware of the whole body helps to dis-empower the suffering aspect of the pain, while opening up our awareness of the whole body mechanism as an object for equanimous observation. Excellent instruction.


Did you equate this dullness at all with a diminishment of sati (mindfulness)? If so, being able to recognize this is a good sign.


This sounds like a very good outcome. Congratulations. Keep up the good work. The more you are able to see how the mind works, the less suffering (dukkha) you will experience. Understanding the mind is the key to attaining nibbana in the here and now. (Nibbana being the non-affect – mostly through our non-identification and non-emotional reaction – to and of the arising of dukkha.)


No need to believe in it. Just know that it is true (by practicing equanimity) and quietly observe what happens.

Thanks for the encouragement, Ian! Also, thanks for all of the instructions and your help as well. I really appreciate it.

As for the other note about IMS, I do think that they have really good instructors there. I don't really need to tell them directly where I am on the map, but just as I opened my mouth to say something or acted some ways, all of them seem to already know where I am. The retreat I went to was for young adults (age 18-32). There were 5 teachers teaching the retreat, and because of this, I think, each of us got lots of attentions from teachers. Signing up for individual/ extra interviews was always possible. I really don't know how it would be with other retreats though, but at the very least, I suppose you can expect environment conducive to practice.

Dear Julie,

It is a pleasure to meet you here on line for the first time. If I may, I would like to share with you my own process in jhana-vipassana contemplation, as this was the methodology by which I attained to the experience that I am calling second path. This was in 1998. Perhaps you will find something useful in this.

For me, it was actually a very simple process. When I do jhanas I go fairly deep, short of deep/hard commentarial jhana, but not too far from that (I have found that deep commentarial style jhana leave the body very numb and are not useful for the full practice of the four foundations of mindfulness). This was a two-month retreat, and for the first six weeks, all I did was to go up and down the eight jhanas. I would direct my walking meditation to maintaining as much of that state of consciousness as I could, but without of course the full absorption, but the nimitta and the mental factors can be guarded. In this phase of the retreat, the emphasis was obviously on the sitting, but we have to get up and move, and it is good for the practice to learn how to maintain while in movement.

I only began the jhana-vipassana phase of the practice during the last two weeks. During this time, I would call up the jhana and sit in it for the duration of the sitting, and then I would emerge from the jhana and do walking meditation. Only now, instead of cultivating the nimitta and the factors during walking, I would simply observe the process of decay in the jhana’s factors and associated mind states. This contemplation of the decay of the “jhana” would continue into the next sitting because the associated factors and mind states were so strong by that point. In fact, I could not observe the decay of the jhana states in my initial sitting with the jhana because the tendency was for the mind to be pulled back into the jhana and for that reason I found I needed to place a walking meditation between the jhanic meditation and the insight sitting. Whatever the present factors where for that jhana and according to their natural predominance, that is how I contemplated them. Because so much of vipassana-jhana is mind based, you cannot say fairly that you are doing Mahasi style practice, in my opinion, especially if you are doing the formless jhanas, which tend to inhibit physical sensation pretty strongly. Since I always began my sittings in Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations, I would resume standard insight practice when the standard KETF resumed.

One point of interest here is that the contemplation is not IN the jhana, but takes as its object the decay of the jhana, beginning with the moment of emergence (or technically immediately after). I do not see how it would be possible to investigate while in a jhana. If one is investigating, he or she is not in jhana as the arising of those mind moment have as their intention the investigation of present mental factors and mind states. In absorption, the intention all flow towards the experiencing and immersion into that experience.

I found that because the jhanas were well established, and the mindfulness was very strong and clear, there was really not much to do as the process pretty much took care of itself. I did not have to DO anything really, except make determinations for the duration of the jhana. So in this sense, I would not call it investigating the jhanas, in the sense of intentional examination. If you are launching from KETF and have some mastery of the jhana, there is no need for “working.” All you do is make a determination if you would want something to happen. So for example, if you would like to observe the decay of piti more clearly, you simply say to yourself “may the decay of piti become clearer.” And it will be so. Basically, once you have KETF and at least one path fruition, all practice is done by the power of determinations, unless you wish to return to the beginning of your practice and start the development of a new path. This is my view on the subject. This power of determination, aditthana parami, is a legitimate psychic power really, one of the paramis I think, that is needed for deep practice.

I would start with first jhana and go in order up to seven, and then return downward jhana by jhana to the first. When using them for insight contemplation, I left out eight for the usual reasons. This I did, up and down and up down for about three days when the path process culminated. What is interesting to note was that the process of culmination of path actually began with a strong and irresistible urge towards insight during the walking meditation following the fourth jhana.

So to wind up the story, I spent a few days cultivating fruition attainment, and then the last few days, all I did was brahma viharas. I found both of these relatively easy as with a full compliment of stable jhana and KETF, the mind worked easily with determinations.

I hope something in here might be useful to you,

Best wishes friend Julie!

Daniel