Hello,

As I expressed in my previous two threads, I jumped to conclusion regarding Tarin. I do believe him to be actually free.

The reason for me responding that way to him has been seen through using the AF method and is gone.

The other thing I expressed is that I have some real concerns and questions regarding reaching Actual Freedom. I have many more questions, but those fall in the category of "you'll see when you get there", and as such I won't bother asking.

The concerns and questions I'd like to express here though, are real concerns that I need to have clarity on before I can and want to continue.

The reason for this being that Actual Freedom so far has proven to be irrevocable and I cannot step into it with no way back without these concerns having been addressed.

So if you could kindly help me with this, it will be greatly appreciated!

For the whole picture, I need to provide a little background on my progress so far. I came across the AF site and immediately wanted it. So I read, studied the method and started applying it. I amazed at how fast things are changing.

I'm starting to feel much better. But offcourse an I feeling much better is nothing like the Actually Free condition of being, where there is no entity to feel much better.

And this Actual Freedom concerns me on certain points. To the extend that I'm reluctant to go further before those concerns get addressed.

So, let's get to it:

1. Richard says that he has no feelings at all. But also speaks of the experience in actual freedom is one of experiencing the world as a fairy tale-like, magical one. An experience which is utterly delightful. These are just examples, but I have encountered many statements like those regarding various contexts.

The thing is, if I, as I do at times experience the world as magical, I sometimes see it as overwhelmingly beautiful as it is. I guess this kind of fits the PCE experience. But the perception of such beauty is based on a feeling. A highly pleasurable feeling in my eyes as I look at something. Or, when it comes to things being delightful, there is a feeling of it being delightful.

So from my position, there is a contradiction in what Richard is saying. He says to have no feelings at all, but experiencing something as wonderful/magical in the AF sense, involves feelings as well, right?

2. The one thing that brings up a lot of resistance in my is the disappearance of love and being in love. How are you going to look at people in AF? Do you suddenly don't love your wife and children anymore. Not like your friends? Etc.?

3. Another point of resistance: disappearance of sexual feelings. Sorry to be blunt, but can you even still "salute" in AF, or have an orgasm (another feeling that would be gone)? Or ejaculate. Even beyond the enjoyment those things can bring, and many people finding them to be essential in a relationship (it's hard to get into a relationship when you are not able to, or have no desire to have sex). But beyond that, what about the continuation of the species?

4. Even more essential: disappearance of feelings that are needed to safe your life. Or the life of someone else? Every once in a while you step into the street, no noticing a car. The surge of fear makes it so you jump away. These fear type responses are essential for survival.

And what about hunger? Another feeling. Without it, how do you know when to eat?

Or if you're driving in your car and someone accidentally steps into the street, not paying attention? It's your survival feeling type of responses that make it so you hit the brakes immediately. With those gone, wouldn't that just be dangerous?

5. A small thing that puzzles me. Richard smokes. Why? No desires. No feelings of addiction. Perfect knowledge of it being harmful. And stripped away from any entity, I can hardly imagine inhaling smoke is a pleasurable experience to a body.

6. Richard also expresses caring about human beings and humanity. Would caring not also be based on a feeling? When I care for someone, it is based on a feeling. And why caring, but not loving? Aren't these the same type of feelings? Caring seems affective to me as well.

These are essential questions for me that I really need answered before proceeding into the direction of AF. Main reason being it apparently being irrevocable.

I would highly appreciate someone clarifying these concerns.

Thanks, and have a nice day!

Rich

Hi Richard - you both want actual freedom and have points of concern.

These concerns and yearnings can go on indefinitely. Thus, I engage the pce aspect of your inquiry. All other interests may be exhausted with willing parties. As interruptions to PCE come up, then those interruptions become relevant in so much as they are interruptions. What is actual: you are a human being and PCE/AF/Actualism is not going to handicap you. You may handicap yourself, but there is no instruction given to handicap the human you are in anyway. If you find any, please share it. This may address some of your concerns.

My own status: as of yesterday afternoon I had one senseless, tiresome pang of emotional occupation. That was followed by re-entry into pce wherein "my time" generally seems to be "passing". So, I am not actually free and someone who is AF is naturally a superior teacher*, night and day. Otherwise, I am comfortable with buddhist method/terminology as well, though I have little experience knowing various "path" systems. It appears somewhat frequently that people who arrive on a buddhist website and find AF writings do go back and forth between the two 'methods'.

What is the actual definition of PCE from the AFT, and how do you understand it?


[edit: superior teacher can be very hierarchal. this is not my meaning. In some regard, anyone who replies to you, allows you to see yourself better because it will well-up in some formed responsiveness. I do not mean a teacher who can get you from point A to point B; at best, I mean someone who can go through your homework with you.]

If there is any part of Richard that does not want this, it is not going to happen. The clinging to one self is secure, until the need for such security is dissolved.

However, digging into what forms the self can be entirely hazardous...this is the same as meditation retreats and gyms having waivers and cautionary memos. One can improve one's health on the elliptical machines and also die of heart attack on the elliptical at the same moment. You must be the measure of your efforts and their scaling and kindness to yourself in this process is quite useful.

Yes. My first impulse when I found it was "I want this! This is it!". As I progressed, using the instructions, these concerns came up.

To add, since I applied the AF method to the concerns, I could clearly see they were an instinctual survival response. Looking into it using the AF method helped a lot, although they are not willing to go entirely yet, so I would like to keep this thread alive for the time being.

Interestingly though, the moment I applied the AF method to the concerns, I experienced a bit of a PCE. My focus shifted to the environment and experienced the beauty of it as it is.



It certainly does! You put it exactly right, I was afraid that it might handicap me.



I'm open to many things, and have been, but for me AF somehow hits me exactly in the right place, if that makes sense.

There is, if I may, a slight discrepancy between what Richard says and what gets talked about on the forum.

Richard does not focus on making PCE's happen, they are the natural result of applying the method. Also, he does not see it as necessary that one can remember, or even has had an PCE.

On this forum I see that some people use triggering a PCE as part of the method.

Don't know why, but just something I noticed. Also, in my own experience, trying to trigger a PCE feels forced, while the PCE-like experience that are the result of following the method feel very natural.



Pure Consciousness Experience:

Richard: A PCE is when one’s sense of identity temporarily vacates the throne and apperception occurs. Apperception is the mind’s perception of itself … it is a pure awareness .

It is, in my understanding, the experience where you experience the world as is, purely through your senses alone.

Though I can't remember any such experience (although now that I think about it, some memories are coming back). But though I don't really remember one yet, I seem to have the experience for instances more and more often since I starting to practice the AF method.

Thanks a lot Katy! And if anyone has any ideas about my other questions, please contribute. Not just for me, but for anyone who might run into those concerns!

Rich

Great advice!

I have chosen to follow the the AF instructions exactly as they are explained, since I feel like Richard really does know what he's talking about.

And at this point, having applied the method a bit more, the concern feelings have changed into a sense of "F-ck it, I'll go for it anyway and see what happens. Can't be bad anyway.".

Rich

Hi Richard,

Does this impulse, "I want this! I want this!" come up for anything else? Is that object of desire still wanted? It took a big upset for me to form pure intention. Perhaps keep a journal or track your feelings somehow about pure intention.

If "I don't want this! I don't want this!" arises, it's fine. The you that moves the body-mind to and fro will search for a path that either temporarily or permanently relieves itself of so much fatiquing effort.

Bold for emphasis. This is accurate that perception will occur through your senses (i.e., I cannot feel the world through your hands), however, the perception of "your" ("my") will cease. Our language can have a hard time describing it, but you know whether there is affective feeling causing or accompanying a "beautiful view" or whether there is just sensate immersion/solvation.

You're welcome a lot. Many people here have posted comments regarding their direct experience that have been and are quite useful to me.

I can't keep track of the formatting with the quotes and stuff anymore. I'll reply to your comments by pasting them below:

"Does this impulse, "I want this! I want this!" come up for anything else? Is that object of desire still wanted? It took a big upset for me to form pure intention. Perhaps keep a journal or track your feelings somehow about pure intention.

If "I don't want this! I don't want this!" arises, it's fine. The you that moves the body-mind to and fro will search for a path that either temporarily or permanently relieves itself of so much fatiquing effort."

Actually, I want it. What makes me doubt it is instinctual fear. As long as I'm going through the social identity, I'm fine, but once I get to the primal identity stuff, fear arises. Richard predicted that though. I think my post was a response to that.

"Bold for emphasis. This is accurate that perception will occur through your senses (i.e., I cannot feel the world through your hands), however, the perception of "your" ("my") will cease. Our language can have a hard time describing it, but you know whether there is affective feeling causing or accompanying a "beautiful view" or whether there is just sensate immersion/solvation."

Language is difficult in this, although I do think Richard has done an excellent job of using it anyway.

What "I" can't handle is "my" demise. Survival kicks in. "I" am enjoying all the results and PCE like experiences. But in the end "I" will cease and "I" will not be there to enjoy it. Well, enjoying it is secondary. "I" will be gone! That gets to me.

"You're welcome a lot. Many people here have posted comments regarding their direct experience that have been and are quite useful to me."

I'll spend some more time browsing this forum and the Actual Freedom humongous site...

I don't think there is much sense in worrying about being suddenly trapped in actual freedom, it's a gradual process which has taken most people years. I think there is even less risk that you won't like what you find, but if you do, you can stop practicing, like I said it is a gradual process.

I'll try and provide links or respond to your questions, the only one I couldn't find a link for directly was number 2 so I'll give that one a shot myself, not based off of experience but off of what I've read. Pretty much any question you can imagine is answered on the AFT though, just check out the FAQ in the future.

2. AF people can not "love." They lose the part of love that is desiring, selfish, and instinctual but gain even further intimacy, which is the part of love which is actually enjoyable.

3. http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/sundry/frequentquestions/FAQ24.htm
4. http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/sundry/frequentquestions/FAQ19.htm
5. http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/sundry/frequentquestions/FAQ12.htm
6. http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/sundry/frequentquestions/FAQ15.htm

here is a supplement to number 5 written by another AF person who occasionally visits the DhO and posts mind-blowingly insightful posts. She wasn't AF when she wrote this but she was soon afterwards.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/751563

I'd suggest reading through what she, Tarin, and Trent have written in the Actualism/Actual Freedom section by using the "recent posts" feature, if you ever decide that you don't have enough material with just the AFT. BTW, she has written under two different names, S kyle and SW

I think your underlying question is one that I, like many actualists, have had, about how and why one's body can do certain things without instinct/belief. Having experienced a few short PCEs all I'm sure of is that it can, "why?" is still a mystery, but I don't really care! My answer so far is that the body and brain don't need reasons to do things, they just act off of some innate intent (not the same as desire).

Thanks a lot for this!

I think I'm actually going to add reading the whole, enormous AF site to my AF practice. Maybe, in 15 years, 12 years after getting actually free, I'll be done.

And offcourse this forum.

Are there any other resources available btw?

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/ - Nikolai from this forum has a blog, his writing, particularly about PCEs has been very useful to me.

Thanks again.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't want actual freedom. Don't get me wrong, it's just not a "not wanting it", it's based on the fact that I'm perfectly happy as I am, and have no intend to harm (never have).

The problem is, I don't want it, but having integrated Richard's teachings, I've spent many hours today in the state. And I give it a good chance that I will be actually free within a week. In total 3 weeks for someone new.

But living in the state of freedom and then coming back, taught me the fact that AF is absolutely wrong about some things. While the human being experiences at, there is something missing. I do not think that AF is "it", yet I seem to be headed towards it really fast.

The I identity so valuable to human nature is hardly there anymore and there are times where it's gone. This is where it loses both it's beauty, and it's destructive force.

You can eliminate a hammer because it can both be a tool to build things and an instrument to bash in someone's skull...

I think I have experienced AF extensively now, and it;'s not the damn answer. There can be a tool, self, which can be used for good or bad.

Even as I am writing this, I switch into AF often, I guess it's inevitable now.

My question is: how do I get out of this mess??

a) what happens when you "switch into AF"?

b) what happens when you "switch" out of "AF"?

c) what is missing when you "switch into AF" that you find lacking? do you find it lacking when you are "switched into AF", "switched out", neither, or both?

a) No entity existing. The actual world exactly as Richard describes it. Just actually it.

b) The realization that it lacks truly human qualities, which are invaluable.

c) What I find lacking, which mind sound lacking paradoxically, the human functioning that is necessary that is needed to live on this earth.

To add: in AF it seems like all is well, while, when coming back to the human condition, it's like AF is lacking so much as to the point of having been debilitated.

ok, enumerate exactly what you find lacking and why

I'm scared here you guys. I keep shifting into AF and it seems inevitable, but it also seems like something I don't want.

I don't know how much time it's taken people, but I started applying the method diligently 4 weeks ago and seem to shift into AF often.

Yet, being in the AF state, as I am now, just my senses exist. Everything is perfect.

Bringing the identity back, I go wtf?

Please help.

What I find lacking is feelings/emotions that made me the "good" person that I am.

You obviously aren't perceiving it as perfect if it's something you say you don't want. Try and re-examining your reasons for not wanting AF, which you are saying is perfect. What is wrong with perfection?

Frankly I think you are just trying to keep the attention focused on you. Don't take this as an insult, it's really just the natural action of identity, it's something all of us who are not actually free do, most of us in a more subtle way, but that doesn't really mean we are any different. I've certainly done the exact same thing countless times, it's really impossible to do anything as an identity without elements of instinctual and social desire tainting your actions and causing them to be insincere. If I could possibly grasp all of my instinctual and social insincerity all the time I would likely not spend any time outside of PCE or what you have been calling AF state.

We who have identity and are not currently in PCE mode are all insincere. In this respect I'm just as guilty as you or someone who's never heard of actualism. However, hopefully you will notice that this insincerity is not worthwhile, hopefully you will see that it is silly and harmful, mostly to yourself. Hopefully I will too, hopefully everyone will, like I said we are all equally guilty in this respect, but fortunately we have the ability to change this, to investigate this malice and sorrow and to eventually rid our bodies of the identities which cause these things to exist.

So anyway, good luck, don't take my response as any form of judgement, I am sincerely telling you that I don't think any "one" is different including me, but because of what you are posting I am thinking that we are different in that I am making an effort to change my condition, you could too.

Me:

"I'm scared here you guys. I keep shifting into AF and it seems inevitable, but it also seems like something I don't want. I don't know how much time it's taken people, but I started applying the method diligently 4 weeks ago and seem to shift into AF often. Yet, being in the AF state, as I am now, just my senses exist. Everything is perfect."

Fred:

"You obviously aren't perceiving it as perfect if it's something you say you don't want. Try and re-examining your reasons for not wanting AF, which you are saying is perfect. What is wrong with perfection?"

Me:

"Good point. Maybe I'm bsing myself. What I found recently was that as I was going through the social identity stuff, suddenly fear and other instinctual responses. Fear of death and stuff. Then I came back here to talk about it, which is actually yet another instinctual thing... running towards safety and away from the idea of self-immolation. I think that Richard has talked about this. As you get into the instinctual self stuff, dread and fear can come up. "

Fred:

"Frankly I think you are just trying to keep the attention focused on you. Don't take this as an insult, it's really just the natural action of identity, it's something all of us who are not actually free do, most of us in a more subtle way, but that doesn't really mean we are any different. I've certainly done the exact same thing countless times, it's really impossible to do anything as an identity without elements of instinctual and social desire tainting your actions and causing them to be insincere. If I could possibly grasp all of my instinctual and social insincerity all the time I would likely not spend any time outside of PCE or what you have been calling AF state."

Me:

"Makes sense. Guilty of that here as well. "

Fred:

"We who have identity and are not currently in PCE mode are all insincere. In this respect I'm just as guilty as you or someone who's never heard of actualism. However, hopefully you will notice that this insincerity is not worthwhile, hopefully you will see that it is silly and harmful, mostly to yourself. Hopefully I will too, hopefully everyone will, like I said we are all equally guilty in this respect, but fortunately we have the ability to change this, to investigate this malice and sorrow and to eventually rid our bodies of the identities which cause these things to exist.

So anyway, good luck, don't take my response as any form of judgement, I am sincerely telling you that I don't think any "one" is different including me, but because of what you are posting I am thinking that we are different in that I am making an effort to change my condition, you could too."

Me:

"This was very helpful. I'm not insulted, neither do I feel judged. If anything, I appreciate your honesty."