Hi,

I've chose the screenname openminded. Just so you know, I'm open to being proven wrong. My comments aren't blind critisism but points open for discussion.

I've looked into AF. Thoroughly. I discovered the site years ago when the forum was still active. I've read so much about it.

I have found two fundamental flaws in it:

1. The fact the the way we were designed by blind nature being a bad thing. Yes, bad things happen based on it. Yes, we need to take care of that. But as humans we function beautifully.

2. A constant PCE being desirable. I've had PCE's, but living in Actual Freedom, ie a constant PCE, is not desirable. It leaves out love, sexual desire for your partner, and a lot of good things. Yes, as I pointed out in 1., a lot of bad things come from the same source as well. The key is to solve the bad stuff.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the human condition except the bad stuff, which needs to be taken care of. But going into what Richard proposes is just insane.

My opinion, note the screenname, open to be proven wrong.

Well, I don't think it's possible to prove that you are wrong even if there was a right and wrong.

Human design isn't a bad thing. There are no bad things. There is only what is. Bad is a human concept based on human ideals which don't seem to be in accord with the actual universe. Are black holes and typhoons bad? Is a much needed rain a good thing?

If perpetuation of the species is what you mean by "function beautifully" then maybe we do function beautifully, maybe we don't. Only time will tell. If by "function beautifully" you mean that there is a minimum of suffering then I disagree. When looked at from a vacumn, our decisions could stand a bit more scientific reasoning and a bit less ideological certainty.

Richard believes that the bad stuff comes from the same source as the good stuff. So you can only mitigate and mask the bad stuff unless you eliminate it all.

To be insane is to be cut off from reality. Actually free people say life is much much better without emotions and feeling. That is a subjective pov. And nothing they say seems to be detached from reality.

I agree with that last sentence.

Maybe there is something to AF, as I said, I am open minded,

What if there was a way for humans to function as they do, without the damaging stuff?

There would still be love, lust, etc.. Yet all the problematic stuff would be gone.

Reject the damaging stuff, keep the good stuff and be a fully functional, good human being.

love + lust are part of the problematic stuff. there's nothing in them that is worth missing out on actuality for. they're just selfish emotions which don't care how many people (including the 'feeler') they hurt

This is nuts.

I've never selfishly loved.

I've never felt lust for someone in a selfish way. Maybe rapists do, but I surely haven't.

And surely they don't hurt anyone.

I've read about Richard's position on this. How actual intimacy surpasses love.

May be true, still being open minded here.

But saying what you say here, and referring to my response, I cannot agree with your position.

Why not experiment yourself? Set up the conditions to trigger a PCE with the feeling "me" in temporary abeyance, then have sex/make love with a significant other. Compare it to how it feels while a feeling "me" is doing the same thing.

You wont ever know for sure till you experience the differences for yourself. People here can point you to what's been said and what they think, but you will never know otherwise for sure. A PCE is undoable if you fear becoming AF. One must have 100% pure intent to become AF, so no need to worry about losing anything you don't wish to. A PCE would be your best bet to compare what it's like sans feeling "love" and lust. Sex though can be thoroughly enjoyed while in PCE mode.

Either you have come to convince others to stop with the AF practices, or you yourself are curious but have certain reservations. If it is the former reason, good luck convincing people here. If it is the latter, I implore you once again, to set up the conditions for a PCE to occur and see for yourself. If you don't see a benefit after experimenting, then by all means continue to live as you wish. If you are just here to rail against a practice taken seriously by many here, you are in the wrong place.

Nick

To begin with, I haven't come to convince people. I am looking to be proven wrong, if I am.

I really am openminded about this. But things don't add up.

A PCE happens to be familiar to me. To the point of me being enthralled by a lamp. I know what it is.

As a permanent condition, and while loving someone/making love to them, seems absolutely nuts.

I maintain the opinion that it's not the human condition, but the problematic parts of the human condition that are the problem.

You can be incredibly horny while fucking your partner, loving all there is about them.

You can also rape a 6 year old.

The difference is in the problematic part, not the human condition to begin with.

i second what Nick said, but to give you a few points to ponder:


when you love somebody, and you want to be with them, do you want to be with them for their sake, or to make yourself feel better?

when you love somebody, and they leave you, you feel pain. why do you feel pain if it isn't selfish?

when you love somebody, and you see they feel bad, you feel bad, and want to help them. are you helping them to help them, or to help your own feeling-bad feeling (or to make yourself better in their eyes so they stay with you)?

when you love somebody, and you want to help them, and they don't listen to your advice/contradict you, you feel upset. why do you feel upset if it's not selfish? what's in it for you?


really? isn't lust just to gratify your own desire? what's that if not selfish?

if you mean you lust to make them feel good - do you do that to make them feel good, or because if they feel good, you feel good?


you yourself mentioned rapists. refer to my points on love for situations in which people get hurt (feel angry, upset, etc.)

--

about having sex with someone without loving them/in a PCE, there's good reading about that on the AF site: richard, peter, vineeto. sounds pretty enjoyable for all parties involved to me. (but as nick said, that's an opinion, so you will have to have sex in a PCE to see for yourself)

Ok. Just making sure.



Can you talk about your experience? How long did it last for? What did it look like?



"Seems". Is that your intuition? How will you know if you don't spend a lengthy time with a significant other while in a PCE? Or have you already?



So why are you interested in pursuing this discussion further as you have made up your mind about the human condition? Perhaps the AF path is not for you? We could throw Richard quotes, Tarin or Trent (AFers) quotes at you all day, yet it's just what other people have said. Are you looking to be convinced intellectually or experientially?

"when you love somebody, and you want to be with them, do you want to be with them for their sake, or to make yourself feel better?"

For their sake offcourse, that's the essence of true love.

"when you love somebody, and they leave you, you feel pain. why do you feel pain if it isn't selfish?"

Because I love them for who they are and it doesn't get returned... At which point does it become normal not to grieve, but to feel happy anyway?

"when you love somebody, and you see they feel bad, you feel bad, and want to help them. are you helping them to help them, or to help your own feeling-bad feeling (or to make yourself better in their eyes so they stay with you)?"

The assumption here is that if they feel bad, they feel bad. If it's appropriate, I feel bad, yes. That's part of life.

But maybe I will feel helpful. Maybe I will feel confident (because I see the "out" they don't see yet).

"when you love somebody, and you want to help them, and they don't listen to your advice/contradict you, you feel upset. why do you feel upset if it's not selfish? what's in it for you?"

What makes you assume that I would feel upset? I wouldn't.

"really? isn't lust just to gratify your own desire? what's that if not selfish?

if you mean you lust to make them feel good - do you do that to make them feel good, or because if they feel good, you feel good?"

No. Real lust is about them. Personal gratification is there, secondary to theirs. And there is nothing wrong with that.

"you yourself mentioned rapists. refer to my points on love for situations in which people get hurt (feel angry, upset, etc.) "

Well, Richard mentions this as well. He even shows pictures of the Holocaust on his site. All terrible stuff.

My point is that it's not the Human Condition causing this, but the *problematic* part of being human that causes this.

Btw, just curious. And this is not meant in any offensive way. But are you AF (actually free)?

.
=====> A bit defensive here respondent. I'm am not looking for any side, except clear perception.

====> As I asked the other, again, not being offensive, just curious, are you Actually Free?

if it's for their sake and not for you at all, then if they rebuff you and say they don't want to see you anymore, you would leave and not have a trace of unhappiness at all, because you wouldn't have any stake in it.


why do you care if the love isn't selfish? if you care, then it is by definition at least partly selfish, as in, you yourself have a stake in it.



well i will say, i have experientially seen that the 'good' part of 'being' and the 'bad' part are made of the very same stuff. you can't have one without the other. and there's no reason to have them at all compared to a PCE. i am not AF yet

Have you had a PCE? Will you describe it without using Richard's/Peter's/Vineeto's words?

You are full of shit and are unable to answer with real answers. Geez, your comments could be picked apart easily, but I don't even bother to.

If you don't have anything valuable to contribute, shut your fucking bird mouth.

Yes, the above is a standard "out-response" on forums, so let me clarify:

You add nothing of substance, nor from substantial experience, yet insist on giving your opinion. Which is, as explained, without much substance.

And yes, I said "fucking bird mouth". It is not only aggressive, not only in response to your avatar, both entirely by choice, because of your moronic (there's another one, same stuff applies) responses.

Could you shut your beak or add something valuable to this?

Yes, still openminded, and still relentless to stupidity.

Yes, I have had a PCE. Many times. I have no words that describe it other than the ones from Richard et all.

What is your point?

What's your solution to take care of the bad stuff, which you don't appear to have under control?

Been there, doubted it, fell into a full-blown PCE and was convinced that the outcome of AF (which is not simply a constant PCE) is the same as enlightenment as described by the Buddha i.e. Arahatship.

I will tell you quite plainly that I doubt your claims to having entered full-blown PCE but I am also open to being wrong.

The plain and simple fact, which is verifiable and should be tested, not just accepted at face value, is that all emotions are based in duality. Each requires the other to exist as the human condition is dualistic, this is a very basic insight into the nature of reality which can be empirically validated by anyone interested in doing so.

I found no use whatsoever in indulging in this kind of doubting, and I was vehemently against AF for quite some time before realizing that the only way to verify the claims being made was to do it for myself. Why not, instead of tying yourself up in emotional knots, actually do the practices we discuss here and test it for yourself. I'm not a great fan of Richard but I think he's done a really good thing by opening up (or maybe even just rediscovering) a direct route to the end of suffering.

Bear in mind that this is a practice-based community where technique and phenomenological descriptions are discussed, there is a thread specifically for theoreticians and traditionalists where discussions of this nature are maybe better off. It would be useful if you could provide some descriptions and examples of your experience of PCE's, as I said I doubt your claim partly because these sort of questions were cleared up completely for "me" during a PCE.

Doing it is the only way to answer these questions once and for all.

*Reject the feeling that is causing the bad stuff. This is so simple a 6 year old could understand.*

Ok so Tommy, you contradict Richard and add Buddhism in the mix....

At which point do you have any credibility to AF?

You, Tommy, are just saying things to sound interesting, which feeds your ego. This is my impression.

Even the pose you chose for your avatar reeks of ego masturbation.

Hi Open minded,

Your recent tone has turned a bit nasty and I doubt you will get many people interested in helping you deal with your doubt communicating like so. Please try and self-edit before criticizing other posters here. There is absolutely no need here at the DhO for people to communicate as you have in your last couple of posts. It's unnecessary and counter to the cordial atmosphere and culture maintained here. I direct you to FAQS page:

taking bets on open minded == richard geller. has anyone seen them in the same place?

And you, whoever you actually are, are now just trolling. Enjoy.

Aye, but let's not get carried away with ego masturbation and shut our fucking bird mouths, lol

Hahaha, funny. There are so many mixed emotions when deciding on a path to follows toward enlightenment, af, anything really. The way I decided on going for AF, was to first blindly follow Ingram's MCTB. I meditated to first path and life was better. Then everyone was talking about how great AF was and even Ingram was like yea, PCE's are awesome, its a step beyond where I am at (not exact phrasing of course). So then I blindly followed the AF route and wanted to go all the way. I hated being sad (which I was all the time) and I knew there was something better out there than "normal" life.

So then I made sure to stick to HAIETMOBA, and gradually, even daily, my overall standard of living increased. This is not to say there weren't extreme bouts of fear and sorrow, dread, continuous thoughts of constant questionings and doubts because their were. You have to understand and see through these things before they incrementally dissipate and I also knew there was an end thanks to Richard and that end is going to be incredible. That was five months ago, and today, my life is the best its ever, ever been. No comparison. Everyday I get to experience the physical senses as extremely fascinating in and of themselves without any need for another source of enjoyment. I am not even doing anything different then before, in fact, I am doing less activities because I don't feel a need to search for fun. Fun is here for me now, where ever I am (mostly). All I need to do is be sensuous and attentive.

Bottom line is, that if all these people, smart people, are talking about how great their experiences are, and the writings make a good deal of sense ( For me, the more experience I had with HAIETMOBA and understanding how the cunning self works as well as the purity of the actual world, the more richard's writings made %100 sense), then it might be worth it to stop questioning and arguing, take richard's writings as is, and see if the method works for you. For me, the method has been incredible and AF is definitely something I want. Its actually a no brainer.

No and if I had known that my behavior would set up that perception, I would have refrained from posting.

I hope this does not cause trouble for Richard Geller.

Anyway, I'm done here anyway. I've found some answers, but some things remain unexplained. My guess is that someone actually free could shed light on those things. Too bad they don't.

A full blown PCE lasting several hours or days should help with the unexplained. Also, fish around for old threads in the actual freedom section of this site. You may find some intellectual satisfaction or not there.

This reminds me of how someone speaks at the RT forum. Are you familiar with it, Open Minded?

aye my fault on this one - apologies to rich


insulting the people who are sincerely trying to help you might make it more difficult to find answers

what if i had said i was actually free? how would you answer my questions then?

I wanted to finish up some stuff I feel is important.

I find it interesting that noone looked into my statement above.

If you have a harmful/limiting feeling, you, as a person can choose to reject it.

No self immolation is needed to make a harmful feeling go away.

You can have fear and reject it. You can have anger and reject it.

If I hear the question "how?", I'm going to scream.

You can just do it.

AF positions humans as victims of blind nature while you can actively choose your emotions and thoughts.

I have no clue. What is RT?

It reminds me more of how my friends talk when presented with bs.

Insulting? How thick is your skin? How grown up are you?

I'm calling bs when I see it and you are so thin skinned as to not be able to handle it and call it insulting?

lol.

Are you over 18? I'm assuming you are. Then don't be a pussy.

Love sure "feels good," but if you look at what actually happens when people feel love for one another, what they actually do, what they think, how they behave, and if you do it impassionately , you might find that love leads to a lot of bad things.

Dependence, jealousy, power, fear (of loss), insecurity, lack of clarity (it feels as if your lover is flawless), imaginary projection (you form an image of your lover in your mind, and relate to that image, rather than with the actual person), etc...

All of these are part and parcel of what being "in love" is all about. Just look at how it actually happens in the world out there.


The problem with love is that most people are convinced it is something else. They think that the jealousy which they feel with their loved one is not "because of their love," but instead is something separate. But actually the potential for jealousy is formed with the arising of love.

Love is not what people think it is, and the reason they think it is something that it simply is not is --- well, because love "feels good," and distorts the clear perception of things as they are.

Again, look at the world. Love has been around for millions of years. Look at lovers you know, see how they bicker. Look at the love movement of the 60s, and how it utterly failed to bring peace on earth.

It's gonna take something different than love to solve all these problems. Something far, far better... which you can experience for yourself through the practice of actualism.

if you want to continue this conversation you will have to point out exactly what you think is BS and why. then i will rejoin, answering your questions and asking more. then you can rejoin, further pointing out what is BS and why, etc. this is how a conversation can be productive. you can mix insults into your replies if you want, though it won't help with anything, but if you don't address the actual content of my post then nothing meaningful can come of it.

At any point in any conversation on the AF forum, Richard was able to respond with complete, intelligent, coherent answers.

There has been one key point that I have made here that has gone unaddressed:

If you have a feeling that gets in your way, that is harmful or holding you back, you can simply reject it. Poof, it's gone.

Anyone can do this, just make the limiting feeling go away.

To eradicate the part of you that makes it so you feel either "bad" or "good" feelings, to me, seems ridiculous.

I've felt nervous. Noticed the feeling, made it go away (which is the same act as you making it up in the first place btw), and it was gone, permanently.

That's why there's virtually no suffering in the world. Everyone learns as a child that they can just reject bad feelings, because it's just so simple... and so the result is the peaceful utopia we all live in today.

I am not this person. Although we operate in the same time zone apparently, I have nothing to do with this person.

Richard Gellar.

Yeah, just like everyone has learned the AF method from birth.

Neither has been taught. The suffering is.

Take any time you were nervous and reject the feeling of nervousness. If you can, ok. If you can't, you're more screwed up than the average person and need to both reject more stuff and possibly learn how to.

Ha! You claim to be so open minded but you're just rubbishing whatever anyone tells you and claiming that you know best. Guess what? You don't. Why not try, just for a change, not being a dick to people when they try to answer your questions.


No one appears to have disagreed with the point you're continually trying to make, it just so happens that the AF approach takes this a step further and investigates the root of the feeling with the aim of stopping it permanently. Your suggestion, although perhaps successful in the short-term, would not do this and I realize that this is not your intention.

Whether or not you think that "To eradicate the part of you that makes it so you feel either "bad" or "good" feelings, to me, seems ridiculous." is not important to anyone other than you, so why are you being so rude and confrontational when people are giving you information based on their experience?

Also, just to address your rather hilarious response to my last answer:


And?


I have no interest in giving credibility to anything. You asked a question, I gave an answer.


There is no reason for me to try to convince you otherwise. My impression of you would be of little interest to you, I'm sure.




In all honesty, I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think of me and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. What is it that you're looking for from these entertaining little exchanges?

Indeed it seems you’ve found all sorts of ‘answers’, and have thus far demonstrated little restraint about displaying them in abundance throughout nearly every post of yours in this thread. That this parade of pathological projection is largely maintained by cognitive dissonance (rather than nescience of ignorance) is also clear, since it must be your own self which you are assuring of your open mindedness ... open mindedness otherwise needs no introduction.

It is with this in mind that I suggest you turn the concern of your contemplation from love, lust, and so forth to sincerity and naivete. Until those two principles are integrated into your daily lifestyle, any light which could otherwise reach the matters close to your heart will remain forever in the shadow cast by the thick web of views and beliefs which currently shields them from sensible reason.

As you seem certain of your ability to control the ‘bad’ parts of the human condition, it goes without saying that you’ll find little difficulty in skillfully managing any fear or apprehension that might arise while honestly questioning these beliefs. Nor will you have any difficulties with the shame and guilt so often experienced while dismantling the source(s) of the pride which props, positions and presumes that the beliefs are factually valid, healthy or otherwise sensible.

If your questions about the original topics are then still unanswered, I invite you to PM me about the matter, if you wish.

Trent

Choice Trent, choice.

Choosing one;s responses, which is as easy as counting to three.

Sure, go for the PM.

IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ANY ADULT'S SKILL TO ACCEPT OR REJECT ONE'S FEELINGS. IT IS MORE EASY THAN SAYING "DADA" OR "MAMA".

HUMANITY IS WEAK AND IN THE VICTIM MENTALITY. THIS IS YOUR OWN FAULT.

REJECT THE BAD, KEEP THE GOOD.

In fact, pm is ok, but I invite you to a skype or phone conversation.

No, I have no fear controlling any emotion. You might even learn from me. So let me know how to contact you.

a fun fact that might be relevant to mention here: it is impossible to troll an af person ... the troll is always the trolled, in the final analysis.