Beginner Seeking Advice

John Coetze, modified 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 1:10 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/7/11 8:41 PM

Beginner Seeking Advice

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/7/11 Recent Posts
Hi all,

I am a beginner with no attainments and no formal practice experience.

My aim is to learn Vipassana and take it all the way from Stream Entry through to 4th Path.

I think I understand the basic theory of paying equanimous attention to the three characteristics of whatever sensations arise moment to moment, but I'd like some advice on finding the right attitude of mind or philosophical paradigm.

I'm considering two alternatives:

1) If I treat every sensation as an appearance in awareness, with awareness being like a pure background against which all types of phenomena can arise and subside, my practice tends to feel smooth, pleasant, peaceful and satisfying, despite any unpleasant sensations. It's quite easy to maintain attention, and it feels beneficial to body and mind.

2) If I observe the three characteristics of whatever comes along, without any notion of a pure, calm, clear, undisturbed background of awareness, the practice feels quite unsettling, buzzy, confusing, quite frustrating and somehow unwieldy because it feels like I can't find the right vantage point.

Could someone point me in the right direction? I'd prefer the first way, but only if it's skillful. I know vipassana is not necessarily supposed to be pleasant, and I'm wondering if the "no pain no gain" adage applies here.

Thanks,
John
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 10:53 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 10:14 AM

RE: Beginner Seeking Advice

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
John Coetze:
I know vipassana is not necessarily supposed to be pleasant, and I'm wondering if the "no pain no gain" adage applies here.


it seems that the vipassana approaches most used here: goenka-scanning, mahasi-noting, high-frequency looking (which is basically insight into impermanence + suffering first), do tend to be painful... but culadasa here hints that it does not have to be so (that there are other methods that are more pleasant):

Culadasa:
2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility), and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.

With regard to a):
A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.

And with regard to b):
Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha.

So to restate your question, "Who in their right mind would follow a method that broaches Insight without first cultivating Samatha, or plunge into the Knowledge of Dissolution and Insight into Impermanence without first properly addressing the issue of emptiness with regard to the perceived Self?"

Here are a few answers that come immediately to mind:
With regard to why someone would not first cultivate Samatha;
- Someone might be unaware that there is any other approach.
- Someone might have been taught that Samatha practices are useless or difficult or dangerous or are to be avoided for some other reason or combination of reasons. eg. "Concentration practices are a waste of time. The only real Buddhist meditation is Vipassana."
- Someone might have been unsuccessful in Samatha practice due to lack of proper instruction, and so has abandoned it in frustration.
- Someone might have practiced Samatha incorrectly in a way that has led to dullness, and so has abandoned the practice as fruitless.

With regard to why someone would pursue Insight into anicca before anatta;
- Anyone who is resistant to and cannot accept the idea that what the Buddha meant by anatta is that there really is not, never has been, and never will be a separate Self other than these conditioned, impermanent, suffering aggregates. This is part of what makes anatta so much more inaccessible than anicca. There are countless Buddhists, Western and Eastern alike, who think, "Buddha just meant that the Self was not in the aggregates, not that there is no Self at all." They feel like they are a Self, and they fully expect to have the mystery of the doctrine of anatta solved and their "True" Self revealed through the practice. You know the one they are thinking of: the Self who has lived countless previous lives, the one that accumulates merit and kamma, the one that is going to be reborn in the future. These are the closet "eternalists".
- Anyone who craves non-existence, who embraces the Dhamma as the path to an ultimate end to the endless cycle of suffering and rebirth, but who can only conceive of liberation in terms of oblivion. The rebirth they wish to escape is, of course, that of a Self that for them does exist, although admittedly in a mysteriously relative and mind-dependent way, but a Self that is all too painfully and undeniably real none-the-less. Since this Self exists in some mysteriously mind-dependent way, it is the mind that must put an end to it. Insights into impermanence and suffering are seen as the path by which the Self will be destroyed and become a No-Self that will not be reborn. These are the closet "anihilationists".
- Anyone who is aware that Insight into anicca is in fact much more readily attained than Insight into anatta. This is quite true and is perhaps the best of all possible reasons for seeking Insight into Impermanence.

[link]

i do not have experience with other methods, so i cannot offer you much advice.. but i will say that, though the 2nd approach was painful, it did work for me, and pretty rapidly too. it seems like the first method would work (and seems to cultivate insight into no-self more readily than the 2nd approach), so long as at some point you realize that that awareness/background itself is also no-self, impermanent, and unsatisfactory (thus turning the investigation to that aspect as well), but i don't know how you'd take it to stream entry[1], so somebody with more experience with some other methods will have to chip in.

in general though, don't equate pain with progress. pain does not (necessarily) lead to progress. progress might certainly lead to pain, as Culadasa outlined above, but there's no need to feel pain for the sake of feeling pain.. be sure to identify the cause + effect carefully there. and if you are feeling too much pain, it might be good to cultivate more tranquility, equanimity, rapture, and concentration to balance it out (and sometimes that is what is necessary to make further progress)

[1] meaning i don't know what the map for that would look like.
This Good Self, modified 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 7:36 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 7:36 PM

RE: Beginner Seeking Advice

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
...but culadasa here hints that it does not have to be so (that there are other methods that are more pleasant):


And don't forget CCC who hinted at this all along. emoticon

authentic desire > jhana > insight, naturally.
John Coetze, modified 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 9:06 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 8:49 PM

RE: Beginner Seeking Advice

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/7/11 Recent Posts
Thanks for your response, Beoman. I was thinking along similar lines. I hope the first option could be a skillful way of blending samatha and vipassana, building a stable and relatively comfortable platform for hardcore insight work later on. Later I could do vipassana on the 'awareness' itself, looking more closely into the sensations that seem to comprise the unchanging background, and see directly that they too have the three characteristics.

If nobody advises me against this by 5th September (beginning of a home retreat), that is how I'll begin. I invite anyone who doesn't think it's a good idea to speak up now.

Thanks,
John
John Coetze, modified 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 9:03 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 9:03 PM

RE: Beginner Seeking Advice

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/7/11 Recent Posts
Hey 3Cs,

Having read a lot of your posts I seem to recognise a kindred spirit in you... someone who's widely read and relatively free from any particular conditioning, but full of opinions that have little or no hardcore practice of any kind to back it up. Forgive me if I'm mistaken about you, but it's true of me.

My "authentic desire" now is to no longer be full of shit, to stop rummaging around in ideas and opinions and to practice something persistently until it actually yields something real. Whether it turns out to be worthwhile or not, only time will tell. But the best way to judge that is to do it, instead of thinking I know it all in advance. (Been there, done that).
This Good Self, modified 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 9:32 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 9:29 PM

RE: Beginner Seeking Advice

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Hopefully I'm not too full of opinions.

My aim to to map out in advance how I think I can do this whole process without

1. wasting years in meditation (because I see that this is a distinct possibility), and...
2. aggravating depression

So far I have that very basic map which I just posted. I'll elaborate for anyone else that might have the same aims as me.

Deep self acceptance > an ability to act authentically > fulfill authentic desires > peace of mind > natural jhana without excessive strain > Providence (from 4th jhana practice) > Faith > sincerity > insight.

I get critisized a lot in here for being all theory and no practice. Actually I do two things. I practice self-acceptance, and i continue my theorizing to map out ahead of time where I want to go, the easiest and quickest way possible. Thousands have sat stoically in meditation without achieving anything at all - I don't want to be another one.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 10:35 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/8/11 10:34 PM

RE: Beginner Seeking Advice

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
C C C:
I get critisized a lot in here for being all theory and no practice.

Not saying anything about what or how you practice, this might be because many of your posts[1] criticize others or their methods, while relatively few talk about any practices you undertake. It might be beneficial for you to start a practice thread, if only to get comments on your practice and how you might tweak it to get the goals you desire.

[1] just my impression; others may disagree