Is it this easy to get A&P?

Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 1059 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
I was reading Kenneth Folk's The ThreeSpeed Transmission where he shocked me with this about the A&P "How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this. It usually takes just a few weeks of weekly Sykpe counceling or several days of intensive retreat. I've guided dozens of students to this stage and many of my students already have it by the time they contact me."

2 weeks? Can people comment on this? This has cetainly not been my experience!
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Sam Gentile:
just a few weeks [...] or several days of intensive retreat.

It doesn't say two weeks of meditating 10 minutes a day. What he says sounds right to me, although I've never talked with someone who had zero meditative experience whatsoever, started meditating intensively for a few days, and reported their experience. But from all the journals I've read, talking with other people, and my experience, this doesn't seem exaggerated at all. The A&P isn't hard to attain. I personally got to EQ without being taught how to meditate. That happens to plenty of people. You've meditated a few years, I seem to remember ? I'm sure you have passed the A&P a while ago, no ? (sorry, I don't keep up with everyone's journal here).
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Olivier:
Sam Gentile:
just a few weeks [...] or several days of intensive retreat.

It doesn't say two weeks of meditating 10 minutes a day. What he says sounds right to me, although I've never talked with someone who had zero meditative experience whatsoever, started meditating intensively for a few days, and reported their experience. But from all the journals I've read, talking with other people, and my experience, this doesn't seem exaggerated at all. The A&P isn't hard to attain. I personally got to EQ without being taught how to meditate. That happens to plenty of people. You've meditated a few years, I seem to remember ? I'm sure you have passed the A&P a while ago, no ? (sorry, I don't keep up with everyone's journal here).

No when I came here I had practiced 7 years with nothing. Now meditating one hour a day with a teacher on noting for last few months.
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Are you sure nothing hapened for 7 years ?

I've read Myngyur Rinpoche's book and did some of its practices for a while, and I'm pretty sure I experienced stuff which I now associate with EQ. But I had a rather strong samadhi bent, and had done all the psychological work of first path, already, basically. So, it was experienced as a spacious unification and purity of experience.

Perhaps you are in this case too and are not identifying things properly. The crazy descriptions Daniel gives in mctb are NOT universal. My A&P's have never involved hallucinations or anything like that, because I have almost ZERO bent on the "powers". Almost none. My experiences are either straightly (1) mundane ; (2) jhanic ; (3) insight. Nothing resembling LSD or what emoticon

Sure,  you can have crazy openings in this so called A&P. But it can also just be : a fluttering zap of quick sensations on you lower lip... Perhaps you've experienced it so long ago that for you now, it's just a kind of unification and more intense sensations which you are just failing to notice as anything extraordinary.
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Sam, have you read this ? https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/98873

Be warned : these things are often actually much less of a big deal than we may think emoticon. Assuming so might lead to dissapointment later emoticon 

I mean, why on earth would you have kept meditating for 7 years if (1) you didn't feel a strong need to do so ; and (2) it did nothing for you ?

No criticisnm, but that just sounds strange to me. People don't usually do that. What was your motivation for meditating ?

So my 2 cents is that you have actually passed the AP, got into the so called DN, and got to EQ, and now your practice seems like nothing is happening.

Although I might totally be off the mark. But don't censor yourself just because you might think these things are more unattainable than they are. How does what I wrote feel for you ? Rather right or wrong ? Would it be disappointing if you were already in EQ ?
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Olivier:
Sam, have you read this ? https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/98873

Be warned : these things are often actually much less of a big deal than we may think emoticon. Assuming so might lead to dissapointment later emoticon 

I mean, why on earth would you have kept meditating for 7 years if (1) you didn't feel a strong need to do so ; and (2) it did nothing for you ?

No criticisnm, but that just sounds strange to me. People don't usually do that. What was your motivation for meditating ?

So my 2 cents is that you have actually passed the AP, got into the so called DN, and got to EQ, and now your practice seems like nothing is happening.

Although I might totally be off the mark. But don't censor yourself just because you might think these things are more unattainable than they are. How does what I wrote feel for you ? Rather right or wrong ? Would it be disappointing if you were already in EQ ?
Its possible. I need to talk with my teacher.
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Steph S, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I'm inclined to agree with Olivier. Crossing the A&P is one of the major things that propels people to intensely seek out a path of meditation. I also find it hard to believe that you would have kept trying after 7 years if you hadn't crossed it at some point. Heck, you could have even crossed it way earlier in life before you ever formally started meditating. The intense seeking and desire to figure out this meditation stuff - seeking out teachers, trying out different retreats, wanting to know if Goldstein and others are legit - all of this itself is pretty classic of having already crossed A&P.
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Steph S:
I'm inclined to agree with Olivier. Crossing the A&P is one of the major things that propels people to intensely seek out a path of meditation. I also find it hard to believe that you would have kept trying after 7 years if you hadn't crossed it at some point. Heck, you could have even crossed it way earlier in life before you ever formally started meditating. The intense seeking and desire to figure out this meditation stuff - seeking out teachers, trying out different retreats, wanting to know if Goldstein and others are legit - all of this itself is pretty classic of having already crossed A&P.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/20537986

I am asking for advice on my practice. You guys may be right, I had a major incident late last year. I ended p in the ER after this intense episode of vertigo and everything spinning. I had muscle "jerks". This happened after a month of ear tinutis. Now I could swear this occured after seeing a bright light. 

A period which could have been the dark night happened after this. I was in freak out mode and sucidal. I lost interest in meditation and Buddhism. I didn't feel like doing anything. Now, in the last few months, I have a burning interest in meditation and Buddhism. Its all that I do but nothing ever happens. Wow, I never thought of this. If this all true, what stage am I likely to be in?
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Sam, when I read mctb, for a few months I thought : shit, that A&P stuff looks amazing ! Don't want to run into that DN stuff off retreat though !

So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !

But ........

I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.

After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...

And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...

Yes it could !

Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.

I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops emoticon

For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.

So either way, keep doing it !
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Olivier:
Sam, when I read mctb, for a few months I thought : shit, that A&P stuff looks amazing ! Don't want to run into that DN stuff off retreat though !

So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !

But ........

I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.

After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...

And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...

Yes it could !

Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.

I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops emoticon

For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.

So either way, keep doing it !

Thanks Oliver and Steph,

Now that I understand more, I tend to agree with you both and others, that I may have had the A&P event and bein EQ or something. However, as I posted in my last post to Steph where I gave the history, I am basing this all on a couple of months od awful medical events that I am taking to be my Dark Night. The fustrating  part is I cannot talk about any of this with my teacher until Monday evening at our appointment. She thinks I ask too many questions otherwise. emoticon
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Not to detract you from this teacher, but man, this "you ask to many questions" is just what has turned me away from most teachers ever !! I just dislike it so much when someone discourages curiosity...........

Curiosity is the single most important factor for achieving anything in my view.

On another topic entirely, I just wanted to bring it to your attention, that my name is Oliv - i - er, not Oliver. It's the french version :p

Cheers !

I shared your excitement when I discovered this stuff, and I believe it is a good sign. 
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Sam Gentile:
Olivier:
Sam, when I read mctb, for a few months I thought : shit, that A&P stuff looks amazing ! Don't want to run into that DN stuff off retreat though !

So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !

But ........

I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.

After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...

And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...

Yes it could !

Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.

I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops emoticon

For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.

So either way, keep doing it !

Thanks Oliver and Steph,

Now that I understand more, I tend to agree with you both and others, that I may have had the A&P event and bein EQ or something. However, as I posted in my last post to Steph where I gave the history, I am basing this all on a couple of months od awful medical events that I am taking to be my Dark Night. The fustrating  part is I cannot talk about any of this with my teacher until Monday evening at our appointment. She thinks I ask too many questions otherwise. emoticon
Ok, I just met with Abre, and she says I certainly may have had an A&P event in that 7 years but it will be hard to tell where I am until I hit Equanamity.

However, based on my description of recent meditations "wanting to jump right off the cushion" and not do anything, she said it could be the 9th nana Desire for Deliverance. But we'll havve to see. Its a guess. It makes a lot of sense not only in my meditation but in my life overall. I have a difficult time getting up in the morning, I don't want to do anything.

As to Kenneth originally saying he can get a student across A&P in two Skype sessions initially she is doubhtful and asks what the prior conditon and meditation history of the person was. She says she knows all of Kenneth's students.

Anyway, I'll keep practicing diligently and we'll see. 
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Siavash, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Wow, I never thought of this. If this all true, what stage am I likely to be in?


And now, you can get obsessed about where you are now with these new info and ideas, and rethink all you remember from your past. And after some painful times, you should realize that you have to let go of that obsession too emoticon .
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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And actually I hope we are not doing damage in case this theory is wrong.

So, try not clinging to this Sam ! ;)

As Siavash said, map obsession turns into suffering after a while. But, it can be extremely important at times, it was for me, so...
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Steph S, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Siavash:

And now, you can get obsessed about where you are now with these new info and ideas, and rethink all you remember from your past. And after some painful times, you should realize that you have to let go of that obsession too emoticon .

Yes. Sam - become obsessed with what exactly is happening this very instant in your direct, immediate, perceptual experience. Look, the POI can be helpful at times, but don't let it become a hindrance. Speaking from experience here, obsessing with where you're at does more harm than good. I understand that's easier to say than do and at some stages, once you have locked into a meditative world and path and know about the maps, thinking about maps alot will likely get set off automatically sometimes and it might get annoying. It's normal to get super mappy once you know about them, and cling to them because you're seeking a LOGICAL explanation for what's happening to you (i.e.: you're trying to think your way to insight, which isn't possible because this isn't an intellectual activity). Be patient with yourself if you get mappy, but just sit down and practice. That is what will get you actual insight, and not the mindnumbing mental gymnastics of theorizing about what might be going on and where you are.

edit: Olivier said something similar right at the same time I posted. Hive mind. hehe
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I feel like what's going on here, is that sam's getting understandably frustrated at a perceived absence of progress for seven f*ing years and visibly senses that there is something wrong there, rightly so in my view, hence the map fascination. I had that too. And when I realized that the maps described stuff I already had lived long before, and they were "the explanation" i had never gotten anywhere, it just felt.. so liberating.

He's definitely doing the practice.
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Ben V., modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I think even Mahasi Ssayadaw said that A&P could be attained in a few weeks of practice. I can't find the reference though.

I remember guidding my brother in meditatioon the same way Kenneth Folk guided me the first time; noting through the 4 foundatiions, etc. He had an A&P experience that first time! He knew nothing of the map so he could not have made it up when he described his experience.

You may have experienced A&P without knowing it. Have you ever experienced an object you observed in meditation break down into tiny vibrations or rapid pulses?
In any case, I would recommend checking in with a teacher about your practice.

All best.
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Niels Lyngsø, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I got initiated to meditation on a Goenka 10 day silent retreat and had an A&P experience on day three in the evening. I have done three further 10 day retreats and reached A&P every time, around day 3 or 4. Talking to other students from the same retreats on the last day, it was my impression that most of them got to A&P. So yeah, based on that, I would say that 3-7 days of intensive meditation (ten hours a day, no talking, reading, internet, phone etc.) should be sufficient. Off retreat is another question that I am not qualified to answer. emoticon 
Ram Subramanian, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I have to say, this thread is pretty confusing for me. I've been meditating since childhood (almost thirty years now) and never experienced anything that remotely resembles any descriptions of A&P I've ever read. It took me until December of this year to experience something I could confidently call Mind and Body.
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Have you experienced sensations arising and passing away in quick succession somewhere in your body while meditating ?...

What are your meditations like, if i may ask ? 

Edit : i mean, never mind, i realize you're not asking for advice on your practice anyways. But me for instance, i've never even been able to discern between the early nanas, the first thing I notice clearly is the AP i would say. In both first paths. So i find it hard to believe, again, that someone could meditate for thirty years and not get to M+B. I would be inclined to think that you have, actually, moved further than this, but perhaps my experience/imagination are more severely limited than I thought. 
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Steph S, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I tend to think Daniel's onto something when he talks about how the Progress of Insight is something that is natural and intrinsic to human development, whether or not people meditate, or know anything about spirtuality or Buddhism in particular.

The very early stages of the POI before you get to A&P, and even the A&P itself, can and often do happen to people who don't have what most here would call some kind of structured meditative experience. What people seem to forget is that insight and progressing along the insight stages is possible in the absence of meditation... albeit much, much more slowly. The thing is, if something is lucidly apparent in experience, that counts. It doesn't matter if you're washing your dishes, driving your car, sitting on the couch, at work, or formally meditating - if it was clearly perceived, a moment of reality was recognized and that itself is what we're doing here. And that's true whether or not somebody even knows what meditation is. I'm willing to bet the average person has many, many times per day when they are lucidly aware of sensations that are happening, are aware on some level of their general annoyance at its ingraspability, are on some level aware that sensations don't last forever - and again that's true whether or not they meditate. Sensations, and to use a slippery term - "the mind" itself are self-aware, meaning they all have their own propensity to be actualized and apparent in experience. All it takes is to recgonize this stuff clearly to progress. Much of this is integrating and working its way through our system on levels we aren't even immediatley conscious of.

As a disclaimer: I'm not advocating the perspective that you don't actually need to do anything, or don't need to meditate at all, to get enlightened, like people who say you're already there and that's how reality already works anyway. I'm simply saying it is possible to have some amount of rudimentary insights and move along the path (which I think the very early parts of the POI count as) without some sort of significant training. 
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Yes, definitely right. 

Some people get seriously enlightened outside any meditative tradition.

Just look at art history, and particularly since the 19th century. Everyone is talking about existential stuff which sometimes describe the experience of the significant parts of the POI extremely well. Look at the phenomenologists. Some of those guys have serious realizations. More so than a lot of buddhist teachers, probably. Yet most haven't heard anything about buddhism or "vipassana".

Vipassana just means observation.

I like to make the analogy with running. Everybody can run, right ? Some people cultivate their running capacities, some don't, but all humans can in theory run, probably have at some point, although they might not often do it on purpose. And then you have Daniel Bolt. And guys like Usain Ingram. emoticon

Again, I believe I got to EQ in POI terms on my own ; someone even suggested to me that I might have gotten SE before ever coming to meditation... Really not sure, but a possibility this 3rd/4th pather was seriously considering.

If you are curious and attentive, and wonder about stuff, and marvel, this stuff will happen. 

All this just to say. Besides the slight bragging. 30 years of meditation and no M&B ? 

I find the idea more likely that you have exceedingly high standards of what the ñanas are or entail. 
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ashmin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Ram Subramanian:
I have to say, this thread is pretty confusing for me. I've been meditating since childhood (almost thirty years now) and never experienced anything that remotely resembles any descriptions of A&P I've ever read. It took me until December of this year to experience something I could confidently call Mind and Body.
I think it is better to look at it from the insight perspective rather than the descriptions because they happen differently for different people. It also can be that you have built up to it so gradually that there was no BAAAM moment. This stuff is weird.
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ashmin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I was reading only the first few chapters of MCTB (where he is giving meditation examples) when I had my first A&P. However, I had a year of self-inquiry mostly based on Rupert Spira's videos. I think if one can inspect reality without getting lost in thoughts to some degree, A&P happens. Also, it was greatly helpful to understand even at an intellectual level that thoughts themselves are forms the same as the cup on the table. 
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Sam Gentile:
I was reading Kenneth Folk's The ThreeSpeed Transmission where he shocked me with this about the A&P "How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this. It usually takes just a few weeks of weekly Sykpe counceling or several days of intensive retreat. I've guided dozens of students to this stage and many of my students already have it by the time they contact me."

2 weeks? Can people comment on this? This has cetainly not been my experience!

Hi Sam,

You're in so deep by this time, you've certainly already "had"/"done"/experienced it at least once. You just have a blinder on, as far as eyes to see it for what it was. Your idea of it is too exalted. The path is a bait-and-switch scam, and A & P is the bait. Bait is cheap. It sets you up for the switch to dukha, once the hook is set. And you, my friend, are hooked.

love, tim
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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I recall reading the same thing, and from my own experience I can confirm the part about no need for formal meditation for some people. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Sounds like A&P to me. 

I don't know when I had my first A&P. I can't remember any part of my life without the cycling. Even as a small kid it was there. It got worse and worse, though, and I had the classical huge Kundalini awakening as an adult, triggered by a stressful work situation. I think the universe got tired of waiting for me to pick up on the cues. When I still didn't pick up on them, because I had no idea what Kundalini awakening was, I became ill, and then it turned into chronic illness. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Thankyou! Yes, I do. I consider it my friend now, but it's kind of a tough love. If I don't listen when it whispers, it screams. It requires of me that I practice diligently, do yoga regularly, keep a very strict diet, get enough sleep and silence and alonetime, and regenerate out in the nature. When I do that, it guides me forward on the path and allows me to thrive. When I don't, I get really sick. It is almost comical how fast it shows. I don't believe it to be some independent entity, though. I believe it's my deepest intention or something like that. Maybe it's the intention that drove me into this existence, I don't know. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Hibiscus Kid:
Glad to hear that you're finding ways to cope with it, cater to it, and make it useful. It sounds quite disruptive, but I have had to similarly cater to anxiety/panic attacks that started out of nowhere about 3 years ago - funnily enough it started happening as I got serious about meditation. I have to get enough sleep, watch my caffeine intake, alcohol makes it worse, make sure I'm eating well, etc. Truly disruptive, but at least the body is getting care that it needs. I wish you a smooth ride as it continues to unfold! It's really interesting how tenacious and predictable it seems to be in your case. 


Thanks again, and my best wishes for your wellbeing and practice as well!

I'll just add that I thought that my Kundalini awakening was panic attacks, even though I had never heard of anxiety shooting up like a lightning bolt through the spine and exploding in the head. Another time around I thought it might be mast cell activation disease triggered by physical stress, because as soon as my pulse got high during exercise, I would have weird attacks of dizziness that made everything turn white and dissolve, and then I would have a number of weird physical reactions. 

It basically seems to function like spiritual Antabuse. emoticon
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Hibiscus Kid:
I hope you have some of the Kundalini figured out. I've seen some people mention the energetic rewiring that takes place with more practice, but the initial taste of Kundalini can be destabilizing if it's really intense. 

Thankfully, I have only had minor energetic events until now... 
What do you mean by "have some of the Kundalini figured out?"


Also, people this is a guess. i may have not had an A&P at all yet.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Sam Gentile:
[quote=
]



"Also, people this is a guess. i may have not had an A&P at all yet."


emoticon But you ARE practicing and THAT is the most important thing emoticon Keep watching yourself as that is all we have anyway, but most passes unnoticed if not mindful, so at least while we sit we watch that selfing like a hawk!
You will be ok son emoticon 
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Papa Che Dusko:
Sam Gentile:
[quote=
]



"Also, people this is a guess. i may have not had an A&P at all yet."


emoticon But you ARE practicing and THAT is the most important thing emoticon Keep watching yourself as that is all we have anyway, but most passes unnoticed if not mindful, so at least while we sit we watch that selfing like a hawk!
You will be ok son emoticon 
Yes, as Abre said, practice is the most important thing and not focusing on what nana yhou may or may not be in.
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

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Hibiscus Kid:
Sam, don't worry too much about tracking the nanas in the beginning. Your job as the meditator is to be with what is occuring *now* and that's truly what drives practice forward. 

Shargrol says it rather well in another thread:
No need to "power through" using noting practice, just calmly and patiently note some aspect of experience that is occuring in the present moment. The path takes care of itself, no need to force anything. 
Instead of "power through" you can subsitiude in "map your practice". If you're practicing well, the path takes care of itself. Just be easy about it and above all, be patient. This is a process that takes years.
 I am and you should be worried about this Desire for Deliverance stage Abre thinks I may be in. I don't want to do anything, especially sit. I'd rather do "that other thing" than wake up every morning and face this life.If it wasn't for coffee, I wouldnt even get up.
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 1059 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Hibiscus Kid:
I am and you should be worried about this Desire for Deliverance stage Abre thinks I may be in.

Why should I be worried? emoticon
"I'd rather do "that other thing" than wake up every morning and face this life." Suicide.
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 3875 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Sam, if you're kidding about suicide don't. If you're serious then go get some help. Talk to someone. Now. Please.
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 1059 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Sam, if you're kidding about suicide don't. If you're serious then go get some help. Talk to someone. Now. Please.
Sorry Chris. I just met with my therapist and she reminded me that I have been feeling like not getting out of bed for 2 years and this is more of the same. Not suicide. Thanks for your concern.
Tim Farrington, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 2456 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Hibiscus Kid:
I am and you should be worried about this Desire for Deliverance stage Abre thinks I may be in.

Why should I be worried? emoticon
"I'd rather do "that other thing" than wake up every morning and face this life." Suicide.

With all due respect for everyone's very legitimate concern, especially given the genuinely stupid and concerning way Sam expressed it here, i feel like i can relate to what i take to be his main point here: better gate gate gate than another second of this bullshit. This has always been the most fruitful and liberating moment on the path for me, and it is a precious place, despite the apparent bleakness and despair and (as here, and often in the way i put it myself) real sense that death is preferable to samsara. This is a point many traditions make.

Sam, you just can't drop an S-bomb on people who care about you like that. they are forced to respond urgently, by their duty to you as a friend and a suffering human in deep shit. Over the years i have tried many ways to keep something along these lines in play, and my current state of the art is that i have a gentle lean toward death, on the whole. I also add at the first challenge that there is no way i'm ging to leave a mess for anyone to clean up, or drop that grenade without knowing who the shrapnel will hit.

The whole point of spiritual practice, at this moment, is seeing how clearly we are fucked, and feeling a desperate craving to be free of the crap. Rumi (lol, or Coleman Barks, at least; i often wonder) talks exquisitely of prayer as an egg: "Hatch out the desperation inside," he says.

And remember St. Albert Camus: suicide is the only real philosophical question. Sisyphus's rock is meditative and leads to nothing, endlessly. And yet, St. Albert says, at the end, "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Love that rock and use right speech when dropping that S-bomb.
love, tim
Sam Gentile, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 1059 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Hibiscus Kid:
I am and you should be worried about this Desire for Deliverance stage Abre thinks I may be in.

Why should I be worried? emoticon
"I'd rather do "that other thing" than wake up every morning and face this life." Suicide.

With all due respect for everyone's very legitimate concern, especially given the genuinely stupid and concerning way Sam expressed it here, i feel like i can relate to what i take to be his main point here: better gate gate gate than another second of this bullshit. This has always been the most fruitful and liberating moment on the path for me, and it is a precious place, despite the apparent bleakness and despair and (as here, and often in the way i put it myself) real sense that death is preferable to samsara. This is a point many traditions make.

Sam, you just can't drop an S-bomb on people who care about you like that. they are forced to respond urgently, by their duty to you as a friend and a suffering human in deep shit. Over the years i have tried many ways to keep something along these lines in play, and my current state of the art is that i have a gentle lean toward death, on the whole. I also add at the first challenge that there is no way i'm ging to leave a mess for anyone to clean up, or drop that grenade without knowing who the shrapnel will hit.

The whole point of spiritual practice, at this moment, is seeing how clearly we are fucked, and feeling a desperate craving to be free of the crap. Rumi (lol, or Coleman Barks, at least; i often wonder) talks exquisitely of prayer as an egg: "Hatch out the desperation inside," he says.

And remember St. Albert Camus: suicide is the only real philosophical question. Sisyphus's rock is meditative and leads to nothing, endlessly. And yet, St. Albert says, at the end, "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Love that rock and use right speech when dropping that S-bomb.
love, tim
I am sorry for the way that I expressed this. I have checked with my therapist and I have been doing this not wanting to get out of bed for 2 years now. There are no sucicidal thoughts. I express deep regrets on the mess i have created. Thanks to all the people here for caring. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Just take care and be kind to yourself. Best wishes for your wellbeing and practice!
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Olivier, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 731 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
yeah sam, come on.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: Is it this easy to get A&P?

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Even if you have had A&P, it's not a stable thing. The cycling goes on. Every time you start a formal meditation, the first phase of getting settled starts with the lower nanas. If you had A&P on the path you are on, more nanas are included in the cycling, but you will still have to work through the lower ones on a regular basis.