Is it this easy to get A&P? - Discussion
Are you sure nothing hapened for 7 years ?
I've read Myngyur Rinpoche's book and did some of its practices for a while, and I'm pretty sure I experienced stuff which I now associate with EQ. But I had a rather strong samadhi bent, and had done all the psychological work of first path, already, basically. So, it was experienced as a spacious unification and purity of experience.
Perhaps you are in this case too and are not identifying things properly. The crazy descriptions Daniel gives in mctb are NOT universal. My A&P's have never involved hallucinations or anything like that, because I have almost ZERO bent on the "powers". Almost none. My experiences are either straightly (1) mundane ; (2) jhanic ; (3) insight. Nothing resembling LSD or what
Sure, you can have crazy openings in this so called A&P. But it can also just be : a fluttering zap of quick sensations on you lower lip... Perhaps you've experienced it so long ago that for you now, it's just a kind of unification and more intense sensations which you are just failing to notice as anything extraordinary.
I've read Myngyur Rinpoche's book and did some of its practices for a while, and I'm pretty sure I experienced stuff which I now associate with EQ. But I had a rather strong samadhi bent, and had done all the psychological work of first path, already, basically. So, it was experienced as a spacious unification and purity of experience.
Perhaps you are in this case too and are not identifying things properly. The crazy descriptions Daniel gives in mctb are NOT universal. My A&P's have never involved hallucinations or anything like that, because I have almost ZERO bent on the "powers". Almost none. My experiences are either straightly (1) mundane ; (2) jhanic ; (3) insight. Nothing resembling LSD or what
Sure, you can have crazy openings in this so called A&P. But it can also just be : a fluttering zap of quick sensations on you lower lip... Perhaps you've experienced it so long ago that for you now, it's just a kind of unification and more intense sensations which you are just failing to notice as anything extraordinary.
Sam, have you read this ? https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/98873
Be warned : these things are often actually much less of a big deal than we may think
. Assuming so might lead to dissapointment later
I mean, why on earth would you have kept meditating for 7 years if (1) you didn't feel a strong need to do so ; and (2) it did nothing for you ?
No criticisnm, but that just sounds strange to me. People don't usually do that. What was your motivation for meditating ?
So my 2 cents is that you have actually passed the AP, got into the so called DN, and got to EQ, and now your practice seems like nothing is happening.
Although I might totally be off the mark. But don't censor yourself just because you might think these things are more unattainable than they are. How does what I wrote feel for you ? Rather right or wrong ? Would it be disappointing if you were already in EQ ?
Be warned : these things are often actually much less of a big deal than we may think
. Assuming so might lead to dissapointment later I mean, why on earth would you have kept meditating for 7 years if (1) you didn't feel a strong need to do so ; and (2) it did nothing for you ?
No criticisnm, but that just sounds strange to me. People don't usually do that. What was your motivation for meditating ?
So my 2 cents is that you have actually passed the AP, got into the so called DN, and got to EQ, and now your practice seems like nothing is happening.
Although I might totally be off the mark. But don't censor yourself just because you might think these things are more unattainable than they are. How does what I wrote feel for you ? Rather right or wrong ? Would it be disappointing if you were already in EQ ?
Olivier:
Sam, have you read this ? https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/98873
Be warned : these things are often actually much less of a big deal than we may think. Assuming so might lead to dissapointment later
I mean, why on earth would you have kept meditating for 7 years if (1) you didn't feel a strong need to do so ; and (2) it did nothing for you ?
No criticisnm, but that just sounds strange to me. People don't usually do that. What was your motivation for meditating ?
So my 2 cents is that you have actually passed the AP, got into the so called DN, and got to EQ, and now your practice seems like nothing is happening.
Although I might totally be off the mark. But don't censor yourself just because you might think these things are more unattainable than they are. How does what I wrote feel for you ? Rather right or wrong ? Would it be disappointing if you were already in EQ ?
Be warned : these things are often actually much less of a big deal than we may think
. Assuming so might lead to dissapointment later I mean, why on earth would you have kept meditating for 7 years if (1) you didn't feel a strong need to do so ; and (2) it did nothing for you ?
No criticisnm, but that just sounds strange to me. People don't usually do that. What was your motivation for meditating ?
So my 2 cents is that you have actually passed the AP, got into the so called DN, and got to EQ, and now your practice seems like nothing is happening.
Although I might totally be off the mark. But don't censor yourself just because you might think these things are more unattainable than they are. How does what I wrote feel for you ? Rather right or wrong ? Would it be disappointing if you were already in EQ ?
Sam, when I read mctb, for a few months I thought : shit, that A&P stuff looks amazing ! Don't want to run into that DN stuff off retreat though !
So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !
But ........
I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.
After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...
And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...
Yes it could !
Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.
I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops
For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.
So either way, keep doing it !
So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !
But ........
I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.
After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...
And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...
Yes it could !
Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.
I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops
For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.
So either way, keep doing it !
Olivier:
Sam, when I read mctb, for a few months I thought : shit, that A&P stuff looks amazing ! Don't want to run into that DN stuff off retreat though !
So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !
But ........
I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.
After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...
And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...
Yes it could !
Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.
I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops
For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.
So either way, keep doing it !
So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !
But ........
I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.
After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...
And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...
Yes it could !
Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.
I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops
For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.
So either way, keep doing it !
Thanks Oliver and Steph,
Now that I understand more, I tend to agree with you both and others, that I may have had the A&P event and bein EQ or something. However, as I posted in my last post to Steph where I gave the history, I am basing this all on a couple of months od awful medical events that I am taking to be my Dark Night. The fustrating part is I cannot talk about any of this with my teacher until Monday evening at our appointment. She thinks I ask too many questions otherwise.
Sam Gentile:
Olivier:
Sam, when I read mctb, for a few months I thought : shit, that A&P stuff looks amazing ! Don't want to run into that DN stuff off retreat though !
So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !
But ........
I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.
After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...
And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...
Yes it could !
Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.
I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops
For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.
So either way, keep doing it !
So, I was refraining from doing investigation, just cultivating shamatha and metta etc., and planning a retreat which would allow me to go through the DN and get SE in a single shot !
But ........
I started doing just a bit of noting, and then realized ... well, I was experiencing stuff that lined up well with the POI.
After a while it became just obvious that I was getting to EQ...
And then I thought... hey, what about all that intense interest for philosophy and spirituality I've always had, what about those years of intense isolation and depression combined with a kind of depth that everybody could notice taking me for some enlightened sage loner ... Could it be that...
Yes it could !
Again, I don't want to imply that I know "where you are", or rather, what "stage of development" you are in, just being transparent.
I have to say, though, that if you have a teacher, she's probably more qualified than us for placing you on a map !!!!!! And perhaps, we are ruining her pedagogical strategy here !!! Oops
For instance, at panditarama lumbini, the teachers don't tell you where you are until the end, and even then, they speak kind of implicitely. The point is to keep you practicing like a madma. Maybe your teacher is doing that.
So either way, keep doing it !
Thanks Oliver and Steph,
Now that I understand more, I tend to agree with you both and others, that I may have had the A&P event and bein EQ or something. However, as I posted in my last post to Steph where I gave the history, I am basing this all on a couple of months od awful medical events that I am taking to be my Dark Night. The fustrating part is I cannot talk about any of this with my teacher until Monday evening at our appointment. She thinks I ask too many questions otherwise.
However, based on my description of recent meditations "wanting to jump right off the cushion" and not do anything, she said it could be the 9th nana Desire for Deliverance. But we'll havve to see. Its a guess. It makes a lot of sense not only in my meditation but in my life overall. I have a difficult time getting up in the morning, I don't want to do anything.
As to Kenneth originally saying he can get a student across A&P in two Skype sessions initially she is doubhtful and asks what the prior conditon and meditation history of the person was. She says she knows all of Kenneth's students.
Anyway, I'll keep practicing diligently and we'll see.
Wow, I never thought of this. If this all true, what stage am I likely to be in?
And now, you can get obsessed about where you are now with these new info and ideas, and rethink all you remember from your past. And after some painful times, you should realize that you have to let go of that obsession too
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Siavash:
And now, you can get obsessed about where you are now with these new info and ideas, and rethink all you remember from your past. And after some painful times, you should realize that you have to let go of that obsession too
.Yes. Sam - become obsessed with what exactly is happening this very instant in your direct, immediate, perceptual experience. Look, the POI can be helpful at times, but don't let it become a hindrance. Speaking from experience here, obsessing with where you're at does more harm than good. I understand that's easier to say than do and at some stages, once you have locked into a meditative world and path and know about the maps, thinking about maps alot will likely get set off automatically sometimes and it might get annoying. It's normal to get super mappy once you know about them, and cling to them because you're seeking a LOGICAL explanation for what's happening to you (i.e.: you're trying to think your way to insight, which isn't possible because this isn't an intellectual activity). Be patient with yourself if you get mappy, but just sit down and practice. That is what will get you actual insight, and not the mindnumbing mental gymnastics of theorizing about what might be going on and where you are.
edit: Olivier said something similar right at the same time I posted. Hive mind. hehe
I got initiated to meditation on a Goenka 10 day silent retreat and had an A&P experience on day three in the evening. I have done three further 10 day retreats and reached A&P every time, around day 3 or 4. Talking to other students from the same retreats on the last day, it was my impression that most of them got to A&P. So yeah, based on that, I would say that 3-7 days of intensive meditation (ten hours a day, no talking, reading, internet, phone etc.) should be sufficient. Off retreat is another question that I am not qualified to answer.
Yes, definitely right.
Some people get seriously enlightened outside any meditative tradition.
Just look at art history, and particularly since the 19th century. Everyone is talking about existential stuff which sometimes describe the experience of the significant parts of the POI extremely well. Look at the phenomenologists. Some of those guys have serious realizations. More so than a lot of buddhist teachers, probably. Yet most haven't heard anything about buddhism or "vipassana".
Vipassana just means observation.
I like to make the analogy with running. Everybody can run, right ? Some people cultivate their running capacities, some don't, but all humans can in theory run, probably have at some point, although they might not often do it on purpose. And then you have Daniel Bolt. And guys like Usain Ingram.
Again, I believe I got to EQ in POI terms on my own ; someone even suggested to me that I might have gotten SE before ever coming to meditation... Really not sure, but a possibility this 3rd/4th pather was seriously considering.
If you are curious and attentive, and wonder about stuff, and marvel, this stuff will happen.
All this just to say. Besides the slight bragging. 30 years of meditation and no M&B ?
I find the idea more likely that you have exceedingly high standards of what the ñanas are or entail.
Some people get seriously enlightened outside any meditative tradition.
Just look at art history, and particularly since the 19th century. Everyone is talking about existential stuff which sometimes describe the experience of the significant parts of the POI extremely well. Look at the phenomenologists. Some of those guys have serious realizations. More so than a lot of buddhist teachers, probably. Yet most haven't heard anything about buddhism or "vipassana".
Vipassana just means observation.
I like to make the analogy with running. Everybody can run, right ? Some people cultivate their running capacities, some don't, but all humans can in theory run, probably have at some point, although they might not often do it on purpose. And then you have Daniel Bolt. And guys like Usain Ingram.
Again, I believe I got to EQ in POI terms on my own ; someone even suggested to me that I might have gotten SE before ever coming to meditation... Really not sure, but a possibility this 3rd/4th pather was seriously considering.
If you are curious and attentive, and wonder about stuff, and marvel, this stuff will happen.
All this just to say. Besides the slight bragging. 30 years of meditation and no M&B ?
I find the idea more likely that you have exceedingly high standards of what the ñanas are or entail.
Hibiscus Kid:
Glad to hear that you're finding ways to cope with it, cater to it, and make it useful. It sounds quite disruptive, but I have had to similarly cater to anxiety/panic attacks that started out of nowhere about 3 years ago - funnily enough it started happening as I got serious about meditation. I have to get enough sleep, watch my caffeine intake, alcohol makes it worse, make sure I'm eating well, etc. Truly disruptive, but at least the body is getting care that it needs. I wish you a smooth ride as it continues to unfold! It's really interesting how tenacious and predictable it seems to be in your case.
Thanks again, and my best wishes for your wellbeing and practice as well!
I'll just add that I thought that my Kundalini awakening was panic attacks, even though I had never heard of anxiety shooting up like a lightning bolt through the spine and exploding in the head. Another time around I thought it might be mast cell activation disease triggered by physical stress, because as soon as my pulse got high during exercise, I would have weird attacks of dizziness that made everything turn white and dissolve, and then I would have a number of weird physical reactions.
It basically seems to function like spiritual Antabuse.
Sam Gentile:
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"Also, people this is a guess. i may have not had an A&P at all yet."
But you ARE practicing and THAT is the most important thing Keep watching yourself as that is all we have anyway, but most passes unnoticed if not mindful, so at least while we sit we watch that selfing like a hawk!You will be ok son
Papa Che Dusko:
Sam Gentile:
[quote=
]
]
"Also, people this is a guess. i may have not had an A&P at all yet."
But you ARE practicing and THAT is the most important thing Keep watching yourself as that is all we have anyway, but most passes unnoticed if not mindful, so at least while we sit we watch that selfing like a hawk!You will be ok son
Hibiscus Kid:
I am and you should be worried about this Desire for Deliverance stage Abre thinks I may be in.
Why should I be worried?
Sam Gentile:
Hibiscus Kid:
I am and you should be worried about this Desire for Deliverance stage Abre thinks I may be in.
Why should I be worried?
With all due respect for everyone's very legitimate concern, especially given the genuinely stupid and concerning way Sam expressed it here, i feel like i can relate to what i take to be his main point here: better gate gate gate than another second of this bullshit. This has always been the most fruitful and liberating moment on the path for me, and it is a precious place, despite the apparent bleakness and despair and (as here, and often in the way i put it myself) real sense that death is preferable to samsara. This is a point many traditions make.
Sam, you just can't drop an S-bomb on people who care about you like that. they are forced to respond urgently, by their duty to you as a friend and a suffering human in deep shit. Over the years i have tried many ways to keep something along these lines in play, and my current state of the art is that i have a gentle lean toward death, on the whole. I also add at the first challenge that there is no way i'm ging to leave a mess for anyone to clean up, or drop that grenade without knowing who the shrapnel will hit.
The whole point of spiritual practice, at this moment, is seeing how clearly we are fucked, and feeling a desperate craving to be free of the crap. Rumi (lol, or Coleman Barks, at least; i often wonder) talks exquisitely of prayer as an egg: "Hatch out the desperation inside," he says.
And remember St. Albert Camus: suicide is the only real philosophical question. Sisyphus's rock is meditative and leads to nothing, endlessly. And yet, St. Albert says, at the end, "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Love that rock and use right speech when dropping that S-bomb.
love, tim
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Hibiscus Kid:
I am and you should be worried about this Desire for Deliverance stage Abre thinks I may be in.
Why should I be worried?
With all due respect for everyone's very legitimate concern, especially given the genuinely stupid and concerning way Sam expressed it here, i feel like i can relate to what i take to be his main point here: better gate gate gate than another second of this bullshit. This has always been the most fruitful and liberating moment on the path for me, and it is a precious place, despite the apparent bleakness and despair and (as here, and often in the way i put it myself) real sense that death is preferable to samsara. This is a point many traditions make.
Sam, you just can't drop an S-bomb on people who care about you like that. they are forced to respond urgently, by their duty to you as a friend and a suffering human in deep shit. Over the years i have tried many ways to keep something along these lines in play, and my current state of the art is that i have a gentle lean toward death, on the whole. I also add at the first challenge that there is no way i'm ging to leave a mess for anyone to clean up, or drop that grenade without knowing who the shrapnel will hit.
The whole point of spiritual practice, at this moment, is seeing how clearly we are fucked, and feeling a desperate craving to be free of the crap. Rumi (lol, or Coleman Barks, at least; i often wonder) talks exquisitely of prayer as an egg: "Hatch out the desperation inside," he says.
And remember St. Albert Camus: suicide is the only real philosophical question. Sisyphus's rock is meditative and leads to nothing, endlessly. And yet, St. Albert says, at the end, "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Love that rock and use right speech when dropping that S-bomb.
love, tim