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Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it?

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Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it? Jim Smith 7/11/20 3:13 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Milo 7/11/20 12:38 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Ni Nurta 7/11/20 1:49 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Stirling Campbell 7/11/20 1:56 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Ni Nurta 7/11/20 2:11 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Stirling Campbell 7/11/20 9:18 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Ni Nurta 7/13/20 1:17 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/11/20 3:22 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Olivier 7/11/20 11:20 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Chris Marti 7/11/20 11:27 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Olivier 7/11/20 11:45 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/11/20 3:00 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Olivier 7/11/20 3:36 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Olivier 7/11/20 3:53 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Not two, not one 7/11/20 4:25 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Stirling Campbell 7/11/20 9:29 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Noah D 7/11/20 2:38 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/11/20 3:16 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Noah D 7/12/20 3:25 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/11/20 3:27 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Sam Gentile 7/11/20 12:42 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Noah D 7/12/20 3:21 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Chris Marti 7/11/20 10:14 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Olivier 7/11/20 11:46 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Ni Nurta 7/11/20 7:43 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/12/20 12:20 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Brian 7/12/20 5:36 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Chris Marti 7/12/20 9:31 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Stirling Campbell 7/12/20 12:01 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/12/20 2:07 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Chris Marti 7/13/20 7:14 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Stirling Campbell 7/13/20 11:21 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Olivier 7/13/20 12:26 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Chris Marti 7/13/20 12:33 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Not two, not one 7/13/20 1:47 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/14/20 2:17 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Not two, not one 7/14/20 4:40 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/15/20 2:09 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Not two, not one 7/15/20 4:23 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Ni Nurta 7/15/20 5:03 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Ni Nurta 7/14/20 2:14 AM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Milo 7/12/20 1:26 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Jim Smith 7/12/20 2:08 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Milo 7/12/20 2:20 PM
RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it Craig N 7/19/20 2:28 AM
Are there any existing schools of Buddhism that teach awakening as Buddha taught it?

(UPDATE: I don't want to get into a debate about the authenticity of the Pali Canon so please understand the intent of my question is: Are there any existing schools of Buddhism that teach awakening as Buddha is said to have taught it in the Pali Canon?)

Below I have quoted an excerpt from Thanissaro Bhikkhu that shows what I mean by "awakening as Buddha taught it". In this view even the first stage of awakening, stream-entry, makes you a good person - which seems to contradict the consensus of what many modern teachers are teaching since they mostly make excuses for "enlightened" teachers exposed in sex and other types of abuse scandals.

(UPDATE: From a post I made below: I don't believe I have ever said teachings outside the Pali canon are inferior, other teachings might be better, or they might be better at something different. Personally I have an interest in the Pali Canon so I am asking about it. Other people have different interests - I don't think there is anything wrong with that.)

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/21530641

Jim Smith:


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html#character
Into the Stream
A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

...

Virtue, as practiced by the stream-enterer, is also a function of a deep trust in the principle of kamma, and of a sympathy for others that arises from that trust. Although stream-enterers may still break the minor rules of training, the depth of insight that informs their virtue ensures that their adherence to the basic principles of morality is unshakable.

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones reflects thus: 'I love life and don't love death. I love happiness and abhor pain. Now if I — loving life and not loving death, loving happiness and abhorring pain — were to be killed, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me. And if I were to kill another who loves life and doesn't love death, who loves happiness and abhors pain, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to the other. What is displeasing & disagreeable to me is displeasing & disagreeable to others. How can I inflict on others what is displeasing & disagreeable to me?' Reflecting in this way, he refrains from taking life, gets others to refrain from taking life, and speaks in praise of refraining from taking life. In this way his bodily behavior is pure in three ways.

"Furthermore, he reflects thus: 'If someone, by way of theft, were to take from me what I haven't given, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me... If someone were to commit adultery with my wives, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me... If someone were to damage my well-being with a lie, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me... If someone were to divide me from my friends with divisive speech, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me... If someone were to address me with harsh speech, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me... If someone were to address me with idle chatter, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me. And if I were to address another with idle chatter, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to the other. What is displeasing & disagreeable to me is displeasing & disagreeable to others. How can I inflict on others what is displeasing & disagreeable to me?' Reflecting in this way, he refrains from idle chatter, gets others to refrain from idle chatter, and speaks in praise of refraining from idle chatter. In this way his verbal behavior is pure in three ways."

— SN 55.7
...
Generosityis actually a characteristic that must precede stream entry. However, the attainment of stream entry gives generosity a distinctive integrity.
...
Discernment is the character trait of the stream-enterer that is most directly related to the cutting of the fetter of self-identity views. However, its implications spread to other facets of right view as well. In fact, "consummate in view" is one of the epithets for a stream-enterer. The impact of being consummate in view extends, not only to one's intellectual life, but also to one's emotional life as well.

...
"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: 'Am I endowed with the character of a person consummate in view?' What is the character of a person consummate in view? This is the character of a person consummate in view: Although he may commit some kind of offence for which a means of rehabilitation has been laid down, still he immediately confesses, reveals, and discloses it to the Teacher or to wise companions in the holy life; having done that, he undertakes restraint for the future. Just as a young, tender infant lying on his back, when he has hit a live ember with his hand or his foot, immediately draws back; in the same way, this is the character of a person consummate in view: although he may commit some kind of offence for which a means of rehabilitation has been laid down, still he immediately confesses, reveals, and discloses it to the Teacher or to wise companions in the holy life; having done that, he undertakes restraint for the future.
...
— MN 48

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 12:38 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
*Grabs popcorn*

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 1:49 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
We currently live in what is callled "The Dharma-Ending Age"
For one what buddha said is not known but he seemed like reasonable guy. If by chance you actually asked him directly then he might make effort and come back from pari-nibbana or wherever he today persists, and give you some hints.

You know, like he taught, "ask a cat why there is dead cat on the road"

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 1:56 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
How would anyone know? The earliest documented teachings of the Buddha appear approximately 500 years after his death. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know WHAT the Buddha taught, if anything. What is extant appears useful, but no more useful than any other non-dual teaching. Any of them could be what allows you to see things as they are. In any case, the Buddha didn't invent awakening. Awakening is older than history and as fresh as this moment. It is as at LEAST as old as the Updanishads, and as new as dharmaoverground.com, or anything else happening now. It is happening all the time! This moment! Awakening is ALWAYS just realizing non-dual reality, as it is, and seeing that things as they are ARE non-dual, and always have been. 

“Obtaining no Dharma whatever is called Mind transmission. The understanding of this Mind implies no Mind and no Dharma.” ― Huang Po, The Zen Teaching of Huang-Po: On the Transmission of Mind

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 2:11 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
This moment! Awakening is ALWAYS just realizing non-dual reality, as it is, and seeing that things as they are ARE non-dual, and always have been.

If Buddha heard this he would say "I do not know what this duality of yours is but it seems to bother you a lot"

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 2:38 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
This is my take on it - 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6363460

The closest I've found to the EBT's is the teachings from Dhammarato that that thread is based on - 

https://www.youtube.com/c/DhammaratoDhamma/playlists

Y
ou might want to check out suttacentral.net forum, if you haven't already, given that you fnd the EBT's of interest.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 3:22 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
How would anyone know? The earliest documented teachings of the Buddha appear approximately 500 years after his death. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know WHAT the Buddha taught, if anything. What is extant appears useful, but no more useful than any other non-dual teaching. Any of them could be what allows you to see things as they are. In any case, the Buddha didn't invent awakening. Awakening is older than history and as fresh as this moment. It is as at LEAST as old as the Updanishads, and as new as dharmaoverground.com, or anything else happening now. It is happening all the time! This moment! Awakening is ALWAYS just realizing non-dual reality, as it is, and seeing that things as they are ARE non-dual, and always have been. 

“Obtaining no Dharma whatever is called Mind transmission. The understanding of this Mind implies no Mind and no Dharma.” ― Huang Po, The Zen Teaching of Huang-Po: On the Transmission of Mind

I think because of the quote I included most people will understand my intent is that I am looking for information on schools that teach awakening the way Buddha is said to have taught awakening in in the Pali Canon.  I even wrote: "Below I have quoted an excerpt from Thanissaro Bhikkhu that shows what I mean by "awakening as Buddha taught it"", so I think my intent was pretty clear.

But I don't mind if you want to express doubt in authenticity of the Pali Canon.

Buddha does not teach non duality in the Pali Canon.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html

I don't believe I have ever said teachings outside the Pali canon are inferior, other teachings might be better, or they might be better at something different.

Personally I have an interest in the Pali Canon so I am asking about it. Other people have different interests - I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I am pretty sure different schools call different things awakening.

Insight into anatta seems to be a common occurrence across cultures and times, but I am pretty sure anatta by itself is what awakening is in the Pali Canon. 

Noah D:
This is my take on it - 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6363460

The closest I've found to the EBT's is the teachings from Dhammarato that that thread is based on - 

https://www.youtube.com/c/DhammaratoDhamma/playlists

Y
ou might want to check out suttacentral.net forum, if you haven't already, given that you fnd the EBT's of interest.
Noah,

The link to youtube goes to the playlist page.  Can I assume you meant one specific playlist? Whicih one?

Thanks

Noah D:
This is my take on it - 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6363460

The closest I've found to the EBT's is the teachings from Dhammarato that that thread is based on - 

https://www.youtube.com/c/DhammaratoDhamma/playlists

Y
ou might want to check out suttacentral.net forum, if you haven't already, given that you fnd the EBT's of interest.
Noah,

What is pragmatic morality? Is it a complete system, or is it one part of a larger system? 

What are EBTs?

Thanks

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 10:14 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Are there any existing schools of Buddhism that teach awakening as Buddha taught it?

I suspect all the existing schools of Buddhism will tell you that they teach awakening as the Buddha taught it.

emoticon



RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 11:46 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Question : Does the pali canon buddha teach awakening in just one way ? Are the pali suttas perfectly coherent ? If so, why do people still have differing interpretations ... ? Even (or especially emoticon) those who spend their lives studying that sutff ?

Possible answer : there are only contemporary interpretations of what these texts mean, and these vary widely. This is a classic problem with scriptural authority/hermeneutics... Who holds the right interpretation ? This is the main source of divergence between sects/branches in all major religions...

Related question : Is there even something as one authentic, historically correct understanding of these texts/teachings ?
You did say you are not interested in that question, but it's at the heart of your thread here, isn't it emoticon ?
If so, that would mean there is one school, or one guy, out there, who has THE correct understanding. How would one authenticate that/identify him ? My feeling is that it would come down to ... individual preference/epistemological values...

Other line of inquiry : How would one practice based on the pali canon, btw ? As Bill Hamilton remarked : "There are hundreds of thousands of pages in the pali canon, and almost none of them contain actual meditation instructions."

Highly regarded teachers such as Rob Burbea (who knew the pali canon very well, btw, and has made many very penetrating remarks on the general kind of question you're asking) have said about the same. Where do the actual meditation practices people get taught in various strands of buddhism come from ? Sure, many are based on the anapanasati sutta and satipatthana sutta... But there we have the same problem. Everybody says something different about those... Are modernist techniques such as mahasi noting and goenka scanning valid ? According to these figures, those practices are actually more authentic/purer/based on suttas. Mahasi Sayadaw was a very very instutionnally legitimate guy who took part in the 6th council of arahants. His very name means "the great elder". He invented the technique, but his way of rooting it on the 8 fold path and suttaic authority has been convincing enough to theravadins that it has become so widespread as we see today. You can find the texts where mahasi justified the practice as a perfectly valid application of the 8-fold path. Is that legitimate or not, to you, is it awakening as the buddha actually taught it ? Do you have the chops to give a rebuttal of Mahasi Sayadaw's arguments ? This guy gave it a lot of thought emoticon

Buddhist practice is a lot about oral tradition, actually, like all traditionnal knowledge ; but then, how is this the pali canon ? Oral tradition is not recorded in text. Zen people believe that their tradition is closer to what the buddha actually taught because supposedly there were esoteric teachings, transmission of mind, which were only delivered to special students down to the first patriarch of zen who then... ... (see the reference given by Stirling above). Goenka says about the same thing about his technique...

There will never, ever be a consensus. So again : it's what resonates with you that matters, not what is "actually" really real buddhism. It's somehow mostly a matter of personal conviction, of what feels liberating and right to you...

You seem to like what is described in the pali canon, so I guess your safest bet would be to get really steeped in theravada scholarship/practice... But then you might be in for trouble because I'm pretty sure these same problems will reappear within that smaller area emoticon But perhaps that would not be excessively problematic to you, and perhaps you should do that ?

Can I ask you what you think about all these parts of the pali canon which are about devas and demons ? And all the accounts of the buddha's awakening in terms of omniscience, of seeing beings' past lives and future births, etc. ? What about belief in reincarnation and awakening as moksha ? What about the countless times where sensations are vilified as worse than "a slaughterhouse", etc., and that this life is something to be ended at all costs ?

I'm not saying that believing all that would be bad, just that, again, it seems more of a matter of belief/choice than anything. Which is totally fine... But then, probably, the DhO is a place you should run away from :p

Finally, a set of other troubling questions which come to mind : What about the fact that many episodes of the buddha's life are actually adapted from much earlier vedic stories ? (Ananda Coomaraswamy has shown that. He was also a perennialist... and would have agreed with Stirling here, probably.. hehe) How does that leave us with the notion that the buddha was one historical figure who taught in one way and that this is what is communicated only through the pali suttas ? What justification is there, if we acknowledge that the pali canon is a construction with many elements of mythology, for refusing to recognize legitimacy to later suttas ? And in that case, saying that the buddha didn't talk about non-duality is totally arbitrary. How would we even know ? ... Why is the buddha from the later suttas that do talk about non duality not the same as the pali buddha ?

Etc., basically Chris' point.

ps, third edit : And, even for the morality quotes you've given. They don't really seem to contradict pragmatic dharma. It's not like these are excessively high moral standards, no ? Not killing, not stealing, etc. ... I think Daniel Ingram, Chris, Shargrol all basically qualify, don't you think ? And again, who decides what the fetters actually refer to ??? There is no consensus. I want to suggest a series of talks by Rob Burbea called "Questioning awakening" which you can find on dharmaseed, which I'm sure could open up the view here.

All said in the spirit of honest, sincere, non-prejudiced questioning.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 11:20 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
[...]:

Buddha does not teach non duality in the Pali Canon.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html

[...]

Insight into anatta seems to be a common occurrence across cultures and times, but I am pretty sure anatta by itself is what awakening is in the Pali Canon. 

Anatta realization... IS non-duality... If we start getting so subtle on semantics ("the buddha doesn't use the word non-dual") then I could say with as much justification : the buddha does not teach no-self... Because "no-self" is an english word which did not exist in his time... Right ?

The important thing is what is referred to experientially, isn't it ? 

Someone like Michael Taft would argue that yes, the pali buddha did talk about "advaita" but did not conceptualize it very well and did not use that vocabulary. See his talk on youtube about non-duality...

IOW, there isn't a definitive answer. Every tradition picks an answer and runs with it. So, uncertainty prevails, chaos reigns and all is right with the world.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 11:45 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yeah, but I figured that if jim was gonna agree with this statement outright  ... he wouldn't have created the thread :p ! So, I jumped at the occasion to go on about some stuff which I've thought about but can't talk about with anyone else, right ?

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 12:42 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Noah D:
This is my take on it - 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6363460

The closest I've found to the EBT's is the teachings from Dhammarato that that thread is based on - 

https://www.youtube.com/c/DhammaratoDhamma/playlists

Y
ou might want to check out suttacentral.net forum, if you haven't already, given that you fnd the EBT's of interest.
Noah,

What is pragmatic morality? Is it a complete system, or is it one part of a larger system? 

What are EBTs?

Thanks

Try  this Dharma Talk by Rob Burbea https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/210/talk/11862/ on Awakening

In the opening post for this thread, I gave a quote of one person's interpretation of awakening as described in the pali canon and said I included it to illustrate what I was asking about.

I am looking for schools or teachers who know how to practice meditation and mindfulness and whatever else is necessary to get awakened like that.

That quote says even a "lowly" stream enterer has the highest moral standards.

As far as I can tell, most teachers are not teaching that interpretation of awakening today because everyone seems to be making excuses for arhats that are assholes (abusive) by saying awakening doesn't necessarily make you a good person. So I am asking here hoping to find out if anyone is teaching in accordance with the quote I included in the opening post.

I have found dhammatalks.org which has books by the author of the quote I gave. Noah has replied with some links. Sam posted a link too.
(Thanks to them.)


Is there anything else?

Thanks

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 3:36 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
What would happen if you practiced as hard as you could for decades using such techniques, and yet the radical moral transformation didn't happen to perfectly match what was advertized ?

Thanissaro Bhikku was Rob Burbea's teacher for years, I believe, and Burbea practiced intensly for decades with a rare degree of intensity, has done a year long retreat, at least once that I know of, is an acclaimed teacher, etc. 

Yet he acknowledged during an online seminar on stream entry last year that he didn't believe in the "package deal" version of the stages of awakening ("anymore", say he), similarly to what most dedicated practicioners we have here and beyond seem to be saying too.

That means that someone with rare intensity, commitment and gift, can practice what the person you have quoted claims to teach, studying under their guidance, and yet after 25 years recognize that it doesn't happen the way it is advertized.

Daniel Ingram also ut all his heart in and was very taken aback to discover that the promessed results were not happening.

What makes you think these people were less serious/rigorous any others ?

I believe some of the people who have answered you here are extremely serious, long time dedicated, earnest meditators - why do you refuse to listen to them ?

We yearn for simplicity. And wouldn't it be so much simpler if we could just get rid once and for all of any "negative" emotions and morally dubious inclinations for ever ? But the most sincere, dedicated and integral practicioners I have ever had the chance of meeting or hearing, say that ethics is just not black and white. It's so hard to tell what's right and wrong. And in fact, later teachings of buddhism very much claim that right and wrong are basically relative notions with no ultimate validity. 

But to think that there's some kind of perfectly reproducible technique which will yield exactly the same results on everyone... And to hope that destroying latent emotional tendencies would amount to making someone respond perfectly to any ambiguous moral conundrum... Seems like wishful thinking. 

All this being said in the hope to stave off frustration. But visibly you have your mind set firmly... So... Be well, and good luck with that emoticon 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 3:53 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
ps : Call me crazy for keeping at it, as you are obviously not interested in getting your views questionned/or discussing this, but if we state that someone, say, a stream enterer, has "the highest moral standards", shouldn't we be careful to take into account ther moral framework and ethical values which are being mobilized ? The whole moral system surroudning the Pali Canon is very different to what most people would agree on today - it's not like "it translates" naturally. In Palic Canon buddhism, it is basically immoral to engage in intercourse or to feel sexual desire. Personnally, this is totally not how I see sex. Feeling sexual desire is not a bad thing, to me. 

It's just not simple emoticon 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 4:25 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
In the opening post for this thread, I gave a quote of one person's interpretation of awakening as described in the pali canon and said I included it to illustrate what I was asking about.

I am looking for schools or teachers who know how to practice meditation and mindfulness and whatever else is necessary to get awakened like that.

That quote says even a "lowly" stream enterer has the highest moral standards.

As far as I can tell, most teachers are not teaching that interpretation of awakening today because everyone seems to be making excuses for arhats that are assholes (abusive) by saying awakening doesn't necessarily make you a good person. So I am asking here hoping to find out if anyone is teaching in accordance with the quote I included in the opening post.

I have found dhammatalks.org which has books by the author of the quote I gave. Noah has replied with some links. Sam posted a link too.
(Thanks to them.)


Is there anything else?

Thanks
Hey Jim, here are a few thoughts from me.

First, if you read the quote carefully, you will see it says "Virtue, as practised by the stream-enterer."  This is not the same as saying "even the 'lowly' stream enterer has the highest moral standards."  In fact, it expclitly DOES NOT refer to Sakadagami, Anagami or Arahant.  Note also the later quote says "The DISCIPLE of the noble ones considers ... " (emphasis mine).  

Next, in my view what the Buddha taught is almost entirely contained in the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta, plus some additional meditation practices, path tips and explanatory metaphors in six to 12 other suttas. And I think almost all modern buddhism continues to teach the techniques in those suttas (maybe tantric visualisation as a practice is not explicitly in the suttas, but it is implied by all the magical visualisations in the Pali canon).

The difference with today is that while there are traditionally 84,000 doors to the dharma, a lot of modern buddhism concentrates on just a small selection. So you can find burmese-style vipassana in as 'the path of the body witness' ('origination and dissolution of things in the body'). And shinzen-style 'gone' meditation  ("she lives contemplating vanishing"). Modern mindfulness is in there. Everything is in the Sattipathana sutta. So there is a loss of flexibliity in modern times compared to the ancient practices.  Actually, the 84,000 doors are apocryphal, I think. I tried counting it the techniques in the Satipatthana sutta once and couldn't get beyond 4000-ish.  Still that gives many many approaches. I think people miss the vast number of approaches because they focus on the objects, and forget the many different methods of contemplation that are laid out in the sutta.

Now, I present myself as a bit more opinionated than Chris does, so I'll dive in to the other non-dual not-self question. Here I agree completely that the emphasis remains the same on not-self in ancient and modern times. That is, the blowing out of the burning flame of self, leaving behind a charred stick or an empty stump. This was the object of old buddhism. It remains the object of active practice traditions in modern eastern buddhism. However, it sometimes is forgotten in Western buddhism.

The reasons that Western buddhism neglects not-self arise, I think, from confusion between two-types of non-duality.  One is a sensory absorption the emptiness of the field of perceptions, which has various names, and is a common dwelling place for those who have blown out the flame of self.  I believe pointers to this type of non-duality are in the fourth tetrad of the Anapanasati sutta, and the fourth foundation of mindfulness in the Satipatthana sutta, and also in transcendental dependent origination as knowledge and vision of things as they really are. That is, it's all in the suttas.

However, achieving Anatta after having knowledge and visions of things as they really are further requires three further steps. These steps are nibbida (disenchantment), viraga (dispassion), and then vimutti (liberation). Vimutti is also called nibbana, but I'd prefer to avoid arguments with the nihilists ... So if you remain enchanted with knowledge and vision of things as they really are, there is still work to do. If you deny that work remains, then you have to suppress something. And that psychic repression tends to pop out in ego-extension of some kind as endlessly observed from Anagami. 

What about those that go beyond Anagami and achieve not-self? They can still be an asshole for two reasons. First, there is no clinging to not being an asshole. Think about that for a bit. In fact, your reactions to that thought would be a very good meditation object. 
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Second, although those that achieve Anatta do not create new karma (clinging programming), they still have to deal with the residue remaining (prior programming that has not been completely purified). And yes, that's right, you don't have to completely purify yourself to wake up - only mostly. So that residue remaining can still get triggered, particularly if the emotional system is filled up by busyness or stress. The emotional system of those with Anatta is very tranquil, equanimious and strong, but not infinitely so. Triggering the residue remaining is much less likely to occus if you live a quiet life in a monastery looking at the birds and the trees while somebody cooks your dinner and washes your feet.

I hope these thoughts are not completely useless.

Malcolm

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None of the teaching you find are what Buddha taught as his doctrine.
He talked with people and whatever he said was for these people to help them with something.
After many years after his death we got these stylized texts, and these texts got even more modified over time and are we supposed to believe them?

I consider myself Buddhist. Not because I memorize long lists of bullshit but because I drop everything that I know and just sit there under a tree naked with reality.
As the time goes on I do borrow concepts and play with them for some time. I also make a lot of my unique concepts and method. This is my hobby.
When I feel enlightened and everything then I feel it is the time to get naked again, go under a tree and meditate the hard way and at the same time easiest way that there is.
THIS IS THE BUDDHA METHOD!
Tablets I do not break, books I do not burn, memories I do not harm. They sit there resting awaiting the time when they are needed eg. when discussing with someone content of a book. When naked under a tree and meditating however... no books, no teachings, no doctrine.

If anyone thinks Buddha the supreme enlightened being meditated with some methods and kept his doctrine in his mind when meditating despite bluntly stating he did not build houses then he is an idiot.

"Seeking but not finding the house builder,
I hurried through the round of many births:
Painful is birth ever and again.

O house builder, you have been seen;
You shall not build the house again.
Your rafters have been broken up,
Your ridgepole is demolished too.

My mind has now attained the unformed Nibbâna
And reached the end of every sort of craving."

And if Buddha the supreme enlightened being did not need all this shit for himself then why do anyone else would need it?

Ni Nurta:
This moment! Awakening is ALWAYS just realizing non-dual reality, as it is, and seeing that things as they are ARE non-dual, and always have been.

If Buddha heard this he would say "I do not know what this duality of yours is but it seems to bother you a lot"

Well... sure. You can pick whatever term you like. The reality of it remains the same. emoticon

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/11/20 9:29 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:

But I don't mind if you want to express doubt in authenticity of the Pali Canon.

I'm not expressing doubt in the Pali Canon... only it its superiority or purity over any other teaching based on it being the "words of the Buddha". 

Buddha does not teach non duality in the Pali Canon.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html

IMHO Anatta and Dependent Origination are both non-dual teachings when understood at their complete depth. 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 12:20 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Can anyone quote scripture, Pali or otherwise, to justify the belief that awakening doesn't necessarily make you a good person?

Thanks

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 3:21 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Noah D:
This is my take on it - 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6363460

The closest I've found to the EBT's is the teachings from Dhammarato that that thread is based on - 

https://www.youtube.com/c/DhammaratoDhamma/playlists

Y
ou might want to check out suttacentral.net forum, if you haven't already, given that you fnd the EBT's of interest.
Noah,

What is pragmatic morality? Is it a complete system, or is it one part of a larger system? 

What are EBTs?

Thanks
Sorry acronym

EBT = early Buddhist text , general blanket term for Pali canon , but also may be used for agamas , etc 

pragmatic morality - I just made it up, but it's based on buddhadasa . He was super into going back to suttas specifically , rejecting abidharma.its called "ante ashoka " Buddhism - before king ashoka institutionalized things 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 3:25 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Noah D:
This is my take on it - 

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6363460

The closest I've found to the EBT's is the teachings from Dhammarato that that thread is based on - 

https://www.youtube.com/c/DhammaratoDhamma/playlists

Y
ou might want to check out suttacentral.net forum, if you haven't already, given that you fnd the EBT's of interest.
Noah,

The link to youtube goes to the playlist page.  Can I assume you meant one specific playlist? Whicih one?

Thanks
To be honest, I don't know.  You could probably watch any.  I think one is labeled as an intro series.  But any where he starts at the beginning then builds on the talks each time.  Of course it's different with every student too.  I like to listen to random videos while I do chores sometimes.  You could also talk to him, if you felt so inspired .  His email is Dhammarato (at) yahoo (dot) com 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 5:36 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
This is not what you asked for, but I remembered a funny thing that seems related -- at Panditarama Lumbini, I remember them specifically saying that awakening does confer moral uprightness, like you would become adamant about it. The nun on the tapes studied in Burma and surely is a disciple of U Pandita... which suggests that U Pandita agreed and was that way. I seem to recall people at Panditarama Lumbini referring to U Pandita's "impeccable sila" or words to that effect. So I'm wondering if a person could be absolutely adamant about never doing the slightest immoral thing, yet not seem very nice.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 9:31 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim --

Can anyone quote scripture, Pali or otherwise, to justify the belief that awakening doesn't necessarily make you a good person?

You don't seem to be interested in anyone contributing anything here that contradicts your chosen theory of this, so my question back to you is: Why should we bother?

Signed,

Awakened Asshole


PS: It would help you in the pursuit of your quest to consider how religions of all sorts market themselves, Buddhism included. There's what they're selling, and that's always flowers, sugar, honey, and light. The reality is different.


PPS: Aren't you a scientist of some sort? Do scientists take the word of ancient texts (Ptolemy, anyone?) over the results of their own experimental work? I'd offer to you that doing the work, as you actually are doing, will get you to a far more accurate, and ultimately more satisfying "answer" than what you're doing on this topic. You just need to stick with it and not fret over these metaphysical and philosophical questions that, in the grand scheme of the path, are just not worth the energy. Just wake up.


RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 12:01 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Can anyone quote scripture, Pali or otherwise, to justify the belief that awakening doesn't necessarily make you a good person?

Thanks

I'm going to go ahead and say no... no-one can. How would you define a "good person" anyway? This is possibly your stumbling block.

Is a good person someone who is always kind? If I shout at you to get you to jump off a sinking ship, calling you whatever it takes to shock you or get your attention, am I a good person? If I bomb a marketplace in the Middle-East full of infidels am I a good person? If I bring Christianity to a small village in Tibet? If I push a serial killer out of the way of an on coming train... or throw him in front of it? The answer is, it depends on which conceptual morality you decide is valid. Ask yourself... can you show me your "human rights"? Does a lion honor your human rights, or a prison in Turkey? These are all ideas, just as "I" and "thou" are ideas. Enlightenment is learning that conceptual ideas are just constructions of the mind. 

Buddhism isn't set up to make good people. The precepts were originally just intended from monks. It wasn't intended as a church, but as a method to disabuse you of your fundamental misunderstandings about reality. Buddhism doesn't define "good".  Buddhism is set up to reveal that the person you think you are doesn't exist as you imagine it. 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 1:26 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Here is the closest I could find: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=7256

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 2:07 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
Jim Smith:
Can anyone quote scripture, Pali or otherwise, to justify the belief that awakening doesn't necessarily make you a good person?

Thanks

I'm going to go ahead and say no... no-one can. How would you define a "good person" anyway? This is possibly your stumbling block.

...

For the purposes of this thread what I mean by a "good person" is described in the quote I gave in the opening post.

Milo:
Here is the closest I could find: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=7256


Thanks. That is a great thread.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/12/20 2:20 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
You're very welcome.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/13/20 1:17 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
Ni Nurta:
This moment! Awakening is ALWAYS just realizing non-dual reality, as it is, and seeing that things as they are ARE non-dual, and always have been.

If Buddha heard this he would say "I do not know what this duality of yours is but it seems to bother you a lot"

Well... sure. You can pick whatever term you like. The reality of it remains the same. emoticon

am pretty sure Buddha was only interested in helping people deal with reality and whatever this reality is, dual, non-dual, super duper non-dual, etc. was less important for itself and more important for the task at hand.

I am also pretty sure that whatever reality was Buddha negotiated with Brahman to change it just enough to allow him to help people directly through meditation and if that was not helping then he changed reality anyway.

When you enter a room and you can do something to improve it then you just do it. That is how Buddhas do. There is no brick wall thick enough to break with Buddha head.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/13/20 7:14 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Buddhism isn't set up to make good people.

This is a good line - I may have to use it sometime.

And, as you've said a few times now, Sterling, just what is "good?" Who says? Why? This quest for what is somehow being called "good people" is frought with danger. Even the most destructive people tend to believe their actions are "good."



RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/13/20 11:21 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Buddhism isn't set up to make good people.

This is a good line - I may have to use it sometime.


High praise indeed, sir.

And, as you've said a few times now, Sterling, just what is "good?" Who says? Why? This quest for what is somehow being called "good people" is frought with danger. Even the most destructive people tend to believe their actions are "good."

From my perspective, reality is always what is happening now - empty of our ideas about how it should be, or hope it will be. Reification of "should" or "hope" is samsara. This quest for "awakening as the Buddha taught it", or the "good person" is just another delusion... just another conceptual trap. Perhaps I have not been as skillful as I'd like in getting this across. emoticon

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/13/20 12:26 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
A conversation takes two people...


RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/13/20 1:47 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Buddhism isn't set up to make good people.

This is a good line - I may have to use it sometime.

And, as you've said a few times now, Sterling, just what is "good?" Who says? Why? This quest for what is somehow being called "good people" is frought with danger. Even the most destructive people tend to believe their actions are "good."



Coming back a little late with Udana 1.8. This is probably the definitive example of an Asshole Arhat - extremely disgusting behaviour, praised by the Buddha.

Also Jim, if you are up for it, would you like to share what it going on in your practice that is making this an issue for you?

Much love

Malcolm



At one time the Gracious One was dwelling near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Wood, at Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then at that time venerable Saṅgāmajī had arrived at Sāvatthī to see the Gracious One. Venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife heard: “Master Saṅgāmajī it seems has arrived at Sāvatthī”, and taking her little boy she went to Jeta’s Wood.

Then at that time venerable Saṅgāmajī was dwelling for the day sat at the root of a certain tree. Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife went to venerable Saṅgāmajī, and after going, she said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

After that was said, venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”
For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”
For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife, having put the boy down in front of venerable Saṅgāmajī, went away, saying: “This is your son, ascetic, you must take care of him.”

But venerable Saṅgāmajī did not look at the boy, nor did he speak to him.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife having gone not far away, looking round saw that venerable Saṅgāmajī was neither looking at the boy, nor was he speaking to him. Having seen that this occured to her: “This ascetic does not even have need of a son.” Therefore, after turning back and taking the boy, she went away.

The Gracious One saw with the divine-eye which is purified, and surpasses that of normal men, that venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife had such bad manners. Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

“In her coming he does not rejoice, in her leaving he does not grieve, Saṅgāmajī ‘Victorious in Battle’, free from the shackle: him I call a brāhmaṇa.” 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/14/20 2:17 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:



Also Jim, if you are up for it, would you like to share what it going on in your practice that is making this an issue for you?

Much love

Malcolm




It seems to me that what modern teachers are teaching about awakening is different from what is in the Pali Canon. I included a quote in the opening post to illustrate what part of the Pali Canon I mean.

I am interested in finding if there are any modern teachers who teach what is in the Pali Canon and have techniques that produce the results described in the Pali Canon. I might modify my practice based on that type of information. I have not studied with a teacher, my own practice is something I have developed myself after experimenting with many different types of practices, it works well for me but I am still trying different things and continually improving it.

People may say that the Pali Canon is not necessarily reliable or it is not necessarily the best guide to awakening or it does not represent the words of the Buddha so what it says about awakening may not be correct.

Those possibilities make me want to know if there are scriptures that say what the modern teachers are teaching about awakening, so I asked the second question. If the modern teachers can find support for their version of awakening in the Pali Canon (or elswhere) I would like to know that.

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/14/20 2:14 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Buddhism isn't set up to make good people.

This is a good line - I may have to use it sometime.


Yes... Buddhism is set up to make fabulous people emoticon

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/14/20 4:40 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Not two, not one:



Also Jim, if you are up for it, would you like to share what it going on in your practice that is making this an issue for you?

Much love

Malcolm




It seems to me that what modern teachers are teaching about awakening is different from what is in the Pali Canon. I included a quote in the opening post to illustrate what part of the Pali Canon I mean.

I am interested in finding if there are any modern teachers who teach what is in the Pali Canon and have techniques that produce the results described in the Pali Canon. I might modify my practice based on that type of information. I have not studied with a teacher, my own practice is something I have developed myself after experimenting with many different types of practices, it works well for me but I am still trying different things and continually improving it.

People may say that the Pali Canon is not necessarily reliable or it is not necessarily the best guide to awakening or it does not represent the words of the Buddha so what it says about awakening may not be correct.

Those possibilities make me want to know if there are scriptures that say what the modern teachers are teaching about awakening, so I asked the second question. If the modern teachers can find support for their version of awakening in the Pali Canon (or elswhere) I would like to know that.

Jim, my perspective is that you can follow the Pali canon yourself - ehipassiko!  A modern teacher can provide a really useful guide, but the Pali canon clearly shows a path of breath meditation, jhana, and mindfulness, with insight practices interspersed and more added in at the end. You can find modern books explaining all of those meditations if the suttas aren't enough - happy to give detailed referenes if you wish.

I think there have been a few other improvements to the suttas.  For example, greater emphasis on bharma vihara meditation, and mahasi style noting as a detailed application of some of the satipatthana techniques.  And new visualisation and sensory meditation as an improvement on gaurding of the six sense doors to free up sense consciousnesses.

But sometimes the search for the perfect situation can be a way of procrastinating.  Should you just be sitting more?  emoticon

Best wishes

Malcolm

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/15/20 2:09 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:

Jim, my perspective is that you can follow the Pali canon yourself - ehipassiko!  A modern teacher can provide a really useful guide, but the Pali canon clearly shows a path of breath meditation, jhana, and mindfulness, with insight practices interspersed and more added in at the end. You can find modern books explaining all of those meditations if the suttas aren't enough - happy to give detailed referenes if you wish.

I think there have been a few other improvements to the suttas.  For example, greater emphasis on bharma vihara meditation, and mahasi style noting as a detailed application of some of the satipatthana techniques.  And new visualisation and sensory meditation as an improvement on gaurding of the six sense doors to free up sense consciousnesses.

But sometimes the search for the perfect situation can be a way of procrastinating.  Should you just be sitting more?  emoticon

Best wishes

Malcolm
I am not saying I think the Pali Canon is perfect, or true, or best. I am looking for evidence (a modern teacher who delivers the claimed results) that the claims of the Pali Canon are realizable.

One reason for this is to inform my own practice. The Pali Canon offers something I am looking for, the seemingly modern consensus definition of awakening does not.

I also want to understand what awakening is. Is it merely realizing anatta? This seems to me to be the modern definition, but not what is in the Pali Canon. Some people claim attaining various stages of awakening, should I accept their claims? Those arhats caught in sex scandals fall far short of what is described in the Pali Canon, but if the Pali Canon is not realizable what is the use of sticking with those defintions?

If the Pali Canon is not reliable and so many modern teachers are sexual abusers maybe there is actually a lot less to it all than most people think.

2011:
https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/sex-sangha-apparently-we-still-havent-had-enough/
"The sex scandals that have rocked the Zen communities in recent weeks are pretty depressing."


2019:
https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/scandals-buddhist/
"Sexual assault allegations and ethical violations have exploded in Buddhist communities over the last year. Are they equipped to handle what comes next?"

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/15/20 4:23 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I think I see where you are coming from.  Here is my view, for what it is worth. Yes, the results are realisable, but they are not necessarily what you think, and the results recorded in the Pali canon are a mix of the results of the meditative path, and the results of monastic living. It is kind of hard to distinguish between the two untill you try it and see for yourself - like Daniel Ingram, or Chris Marti, or Shargrol - or for that matter many other modern teachers. They are achieving what is recorded in the Pali canon, but as householders rather than monastics, so the results may appear to vary. But actually they really are the same as the Pali canon in the essentials of insight, once the monastic elements are stripped away..

Ok, what does that mean for your questions?

Is it just not self? No. Anatta is a seal, not a stage (to quote AEN, I think). Anatta ends the journey and consolidates and confirms all the achievements. It is a very specific step that involves an event that blows out the flame of self-consciousness.  But the earlier step of knowledge and vision is an essential and invaluable part of this. To truly know yourself and know reality as it is, to relinquish the foolish grasping and clinging that creates suffering, and to have access to the whole lolly-shop of nice states. There are important and incredibly wonderful. But they are all subtly tainted until you achieve not self.

What about sex? Plenty of monastics and others are celibate. But the sex drive is a natural human thing, like eating, or dodging falling 10 ton blocks. If an Arhat can desire food or to not be squashed by falling weights, why can't they desire sex? It is a physical urge, not a metaphysical state of consciousness (although there are associated metaphysical clingings that are renounced).  You might say that a sexully active Arhat is acting immorally, but morals are relative to society, and what are morals to an Arhat? They are fabrications. They are empty. You cannot become an Arhat without realising this. (If that is too confronting, consider the morals of the Aztecs sacrifcing prisoners, or the Mongol massacres, or the Ancient Roman gladitorial sports, or the Ancient Greek upper class pederastry. Now consider what a future society might think of your own morals - you have sex with people over 50 - disgusting!  You eat products with palm oil - disgusting!  You produced enormous food waste - disgusting!  You were more concerned with sexuality morality than asteroid strikes - disgusting!  Who is right? emoticon).

So sex scandals probably result from a few things.

- Arhats who can't be bothered to wear the right 'moral' clothes for their current society.
- Arhats with a frustrated sexual residue remaining, due to social repression in their early years.
- Arhats who fail to 'read the room' and understand how others are reacting to them.
- Arhats who forget what Daniel points out in MCTB - Sila is the first training, and Sila is the last training.
- People who erroneously think they are Arhats going - woo hoo, this is great!

Arhats are not like normal people with a super nice functional overlay of goodness. They are radically different in how they perceive and interact with the world. Arhats would probably be regarded as delusional psychotics by the standards of 'normal' psychology , were it not for the fact that they are very high functioning, could likely argue rings around the actual delusions of any novice psychologist, and have views of the world that are entirely consistent with advanced chemistry and physics. But Arhats are not Buddhas (according to the Pali canon) - they are not as deep and purified.  According to the Pali canon, the Siddharta Gotama could have become an Arhat easily but forwent that possibility for Aeons more training to become a Buddha. Do not expect Arhats to be Buddhas, they are different things in the Pali canon. 

So it is far safer to keep such weird people as Arhats locked up in monasteries, right?  Then you don't have to confront them casting a light on the unexamined assumptions that run right through soceity.  And after all, Arhats won't care too much whether they are in a monastery, in desert with scoprions, working in a brothel, or writing on a bulletin board. So lock 'em up before they challenge too many assumptions.

So if you don't want to be sexually immoral - that is up to you.
So if you want to be a monastic or a householder - that is up to you.
So if you want to follow a particular piece of advice - that is up to you.
So if you want to resolve your own suppressed complexes - that is up to you.
So if you are looking for salvation - you have to provide it for yourself.
That is the path of insight.  It is up to you.

And you might want to look inside Jim. What is driving this disenchantment or disgust?  Is it a temporary nana on the path of insight?  It is an unresolved sakhara arising from past events?

Happy to chat more if you want.

Much love (and I really do mean that)

Malcolm



 

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/15/20 5:03 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
I can assure you that enlightened people can enjoy sex and everything else, even own sense of self.
They do not desire things in the same way as they can experience what they desire in a way that is immediately satisfying so in case of not being able to have thing that they like they are not left in state of desire. Works the same for things they can have but not immediately.

The confusion comes from the fact that not that many people get enlightened so there is a lot of bullshit out there to sort throught.
Most of those who claim being Arhats have worse mind state or understanding about reality than many "normal" people have intuitively. Their starting position was much worse and they rely too much on teachers which themself not realizing proper truth cannot pass it further.

Or in other words without Buddhas you cannot have proper Arhats.
And so if you want to get enlightened then do the discovery of truth yourself and with it become Buddha. It is that simple emoticon

RE: Do any existing schools of Buddhism teach awakening as Buddha taught it
Answer
7/19/20 2:28 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Are there any existing schools of Buddhism that teach awakening as Buddha taught it?

Hi Jim

I recently came across the writings of John Haspel of Cross River Meditation Center in New Jersey, who teaches the dhamma as preserved in the Sutta Pitaka. I quite enjoyed his book "Becoming Buddha - Becoming Awakened" which can be found on Amazon. John has a couple of websites, https://becoming-buddha.com/ and https://crossrivermeditation.com/ and a number of youtube videos at https://www.youtube.com/c/Crossrivermeditation.

All the best
Craig