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FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!

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FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 8/3/20 10:27 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Milo 8/3/20 11:34 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 8/3/20 11:45 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Manuel 8/4/20 1:52 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Tim Farrington 8/4/20 2:42 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Ni Nurta 8/4/20 6:49 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Tim Farrington 8/4/20 7:21 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/4/20 9:09 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Ni Nurta 8/4/20 9:14 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/4/20 9:46 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 8/4/20 9:54 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Siavash 8/4/20 10:06 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! shargrol 8/4/20 11:32 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Ni Nurta 8/4/20 1:40 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Ni Nurta 8/5/20 10:50 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Ni Nurta 8/4/20 1:05 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/4/20 1:58 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Zero 8/4/20 4:51 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Ni Nurta 8/5/20 10:59 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Milo 8/6/20 2:41 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 8/29/20 10:00 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Bismuth 9/1/20 11:35 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 8/30/20 10:43 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Bismuth 9/1/20 11:36 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Ni Nurta 8/3/20 11:55 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! shargrol 8/4/20 8:59 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Jarrett 8/30/20 1:24 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 8/30/20 4:42 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Zachary 8/30/20 5:32 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 8/30/20 6:28 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/2/20 12:44 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Olivier 9/2/20 3:21 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/2/20 3:27 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Olivier 9/2/20 3:27 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/2/20 3:32 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Olivier 9/2/20 3:41 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Olivier 9/2/20 3:43 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Tim Farrington 9/2/20 11:07 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/3/20 5:32 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Tim Farrington 9/4/20 1:09 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/4/20 10:39 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/4/20 11:52 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Tim Farrington 9/5/20 1:21 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Olivier 9/5/20 4:34 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/5/20 8:11 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/5/20 11:31 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Siavash 9/6/20 3:40 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Olivier 9/6/20 7:15 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/6/20 1:05 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Olivier 9/6/20 1:18 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/6/20 1:40 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Jarrett 9/6/20 5:18 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/6/20 9:01 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Tim Farrington 9/7/20 1:34 AM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! es pro 9/7/20 3:40 PM
RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!! Tim Farrington 9/8/20 12:13 AM
FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/3/20 10:27 PM
Ok I have posted this as a side thing on other forums but I would really like closure here. (Not that it'll last)

I meditated too much one day in April and something happened, I went up into my crown and felt some knots and they dissolved and all of a sudden it was As though mushrooms had kicked in. Mind chatter dissolved. Concepts dissolved. And fear kicked in HARD. I had such God delusions- I felt omniscient, felt like I was floating  above the universe, above Buddha and Jesus. I felt such pure love at times but this dwindled as fear took over me. Currently the shadow part of my ego- inferiority, superiority, judgments etc, has kicked in hard to try to protect me. It is very strong. Even my breath is involving my ego right now, it isn't a no-self thing.has anyone else experienced something similar. Will I be ok. Can prayer change my mind haha. I am the opposite of surrendered, I am very uptight. I had the honest idea that something could happen in my sleep when defenses are down. If my cat slept on my lap maybe my unconscious mind would just break down and awaken and surrender and I'd wake up feeling love. So far no success 

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/3/20 11:34 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Ok I have posted this as a side thing on other forums but I would really like closure here. (Not that it'll last)

I meditated too much one day in April and something happened, I went up into my crown and felt some knots and they dissolved and all of a sudden it was As though mushrooms had kicked in. Mind chatter dissolved. Concepts dissolved. And fear kicked in HARD. I had such God delusions- I felt omniscient, felt like I was floating  above the universe, above Buddha and Jesus. I felt such pure love at times but this dwindled as fear took over me. Currently the shadow part of my ego- inferiority, superiority, judgments etc, has kicked in hard to try to protect me. It is very strong. Even my breath is involving my ego right now, it isn't a no-self thing.has anyone else experienced something similar. Will I be ok. Can prayer change my mind haha. I am the opposite of surrendered, I am very uptight. I had the honest idea that something could happen in my sleep when defenses are down. If my cat slept on my lap maybe my unconscious mind would just break down and awaken and surrender and I'd wake up feeling love. So far no success 

That's about as classic as it gets having A&P and then cycling into the dukkha states. Keep practicing, even if it feels you are doing badly. Routine is best there. One foot in front of the other until you hit the other side.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/3/20 11:45 PM as a reply to Milo.
That's what I like to heAr and clearly what I came here to hear but is it really classic? NO PErsonality anymore, NO concepts or sense of time, impeded ability to form language, worsening symptoms of social withdrawal, apathy, emptiness...is this classic or just f**ked?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/3/20 11:55 PM as a reply to es pro.
Could you describe Jesus and Buddha energies which you felt? Like for example colors...

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 1:52 AM as a reply to es pro.
A lot of what you describe reminds me of ego dissolution brought about by psychedelics, and A&P followed by Dissolution has some distinct commonalities with that. Insofar, it is definitely classic - even though the particular way in which this manifested for you may be rarer. The feeling of "WTF was that?!" which you're obviously having is also a typical (post-)A&P phenomenon.

So, yeah - what Milo said. emoticon

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 2:42 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
That's what I like to heAr and clearly what I came here to hear but is it really classic? NO PErsonality anymore, NO concepts or sense of time, impeded ability to form language, worsening symptoms of social withdrawal, apathy, emptiness...is this classic or just f**ked?

What Milo said, for sure.
is this classic or just f**ked?

it is classically f**cked.

love, tim

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 6:49 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:

it is classically f**cked.
Merely interresting experiences which after some time will be mostly forgotten and when they will come up then most probably will be remembered fondly and just as part of process of growing up. Kinda like growing bones pains... anyone remember and obsess about those?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 7:21 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Tim Farrington:

it is classically f**cked.
Merely interresting experiences which after some time will be mostly forgotten and when they will come up then most probably will be remembered fondly and just as part of process of growing up. Kinda like growing bones pains... anyone remember and obsess about those?

But while those bones are growing, it is agony. We do need to remember that.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 8:59 AM as a reply to es pro.
I thought this was a pretty good youtube clip from Brad Warner who, in part, talks about how the ego can latch onto just about anything to make itself bigger. Ego death is a pretty tricky and subtle thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HalHIdcdiR8

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 9:09 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Ni Nurta:
Tim Farrington:

it is classically f**cked.
Merely interresting experiences which after some time will be mostly forgotten and when they will come up then most probably will be remembered fondly and just as part of process of growing up. Kinda like growing bones pains... anyone remember and obsess about those?

But while those bones are growing, it is agony. We do need to remember that.

I think you are both right. In retrospect, when put into perspective, things don't necessarily seem so fucked, but necessary for our development. Still, in the midst of it, we really do feel fucked and that pain is real and challenging. The way I read this, Tim emphasizes validating the experience in the presence because there is otherwise a risk of trivializing and making es pro, who is in the middle of it, feel alienated. Ni Nurta, on the other hand, emphasizes putting it into perspective in order to show that there is light in the end of the tunnel and that there is value to what is going on now even if it doesn't feel like it, because otherwise there is a risk of being too miserable. I think both perspectives are important in their own ways, and both stem from compassion. 

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 9:14 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:

But while those bones are growing, it is agony. We do need to remember that.
While you were growing bones did you or anyone else say you are f**cked though?
Brain needs time to rewire itself after it was shaken up.
And in the mean time when these things happily happen on their own...

These things do not work and are not beneficial:
- doing something to stop it
- not doing anything and letting go

These things do work to alleviate symptoms and are beneficial:
- 1st jhana
- 2nd jhana
...

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 9:46 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Not everybody can do shamatha jhanas in that state, though. I often can't, and I'm in the middle paths. For each new insight cycle - and there are more full insight cycles than there are paths - I need to spiral my way up to concentration before I can access jhanas in the dukkha nanas. Getting the advice to do jhanas when that's just not possible doesn't help either. Sometimes you just have to be with the experience as it is, and with some mercy the space within the experience will reveal itself and the intense agony might tremble and vanish. 

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 9:54 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I don't think this is classic...I mean who knows though..my mind is getting darker by the day, no compassion for myself or anyone, no will to do anything whatsoever, just acute pain, dark thoughts, sleeplessness, racing thoughts

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 10:06 AM as a reply to es pro.
no will to do anything whatsoever
The fact that you created this thread, is a will to do something.
You read the replies, that's a will to do something.
You write a reply, that's a will to do something.

no compassion for myself or anyone
The fact that you created this thread, means that you cared about something or someone, and that is the compassion.
Same with reading and replying.

How about to observe it in the rest of your daily activities?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 11:32 AM as a reply to Siavash.
Siavash:
no will to do anything whatsoever
The fact that you created this thread, is a will to do something.
You read the replies, that's a will to do something.
You write a reply, that's a will to do something.

no compassion for myself or anyone
The fact that you created this thread, means that you cared about something or someone, and that is the compassion.
Same with reading and replying.

How about to observe it in the rest of your daily activities?
well said!

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 1:05 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I kinda went ahead with this =P

Dukkha Nanas are not the best to experience jhanas but are kinda the best to practice them. It is hard to calm down whole mind at once but little by little, even one flickering agitated sensation at a time it is possible to shift whole mind in to jhana. To do that you need to know:
- what causes agitation
- how to address individual parts of your nervous system
- how to cause jhana by removing agitation and controlling firing modes
- how to locate parts of mind responsible for each type of agitation phenomena

I even practiced it in the way where I moved some part of my mind to jhana and when it felt like it is kinda working then I moved it back to not experience any jhana and repeated attempt to move it to jhana until I really got how this worked. Over time it was kinda obvious how to experience jhana just by gently pressing buttons in my mind and I was not able to experience suffering even during Dukkha Nanas except maybe for some parts of the brain which I was not sure how to even locate and issues like that something flickered between two presentations which is always controlled from third place. When ways to deal with all agitation cases are mastered it is obvious how to experience jhana all the time.

If this is not clear this practice have very little to do with normal Samatha object concentration. I actually view attachment to Samatha and Vipassana as violating 3rd fetter "attachment to rites and rituals". Imho true meditation is all about developing inner perception, figuring what does what by doing stuff directly where it is needed without using any specific method. That way when agitation show up and it seems whole mind has it you can locate even a single neuron that is unhappy, put it to something like 8th jhana and make mind instantly calm where all these steps take like few seconds instead of having to concentrate on object for hours working up your way up to 8th jhana.. which might not be even possible if this single neuron really doesn't want to cooperate and it has better stuff to do like scream it is unhappy and need special attention... or it just feels like being mean today emoticon

These classic meditation practices of course have their place and benefits. Doing everything without them is only useful to prove the point...

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 1:40 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
I don't think this is classic...I mean who knows though..my mind is getting darker by the day, no compassion for myself or anyone, no will to do anything whatsoever, just acute pain, dark thoughts, sleeplessness, racing thoughts
Very strong experiences can throw your whole brain out of ballance and when you believe you are above Buddha and Jesus then you know it was the Experience emoticon That is why some teachers advise students to never follow these. On the other hand such experiences make progress faster by forcing brain to reorganize where normally it would rather not do that and by providing reference. Many aspects of enlightenment exactly resemble these strong A&P experiences so it is harder to not see that something is still missing.

Then again mind when it experiences nice mind states it wants it and it wants them now. Doesn't matter if this wanting it is making it miserable. Then seeing it is miserable it starts to worry and makes itself even more miserable. This is definition of "classic" no matter the strenght or exact details of the experienced mind states emoticon

Thankfully another classic thing on the list is Equanimity. It will happen just like Dukkha Nana happened.
If you haven't already read it few times I recommend reading MCTB. It describes this process well.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 1:58 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
I kinda went ahead with this =P

Dukkha Nanas are not the best to experience jhanas but are kinda the best to practice them. It is hard to calm down whole mind at once but little by little, even one flickering agitated sensation at a time it is possible to shift whole mind in to jhana. To do that you need to know:
- what causes agitation
- how to address individual parts of your nervous system
- how to cause jhana by removing agitation and controlling firing modes
- how to locate parts of mind responsible for each type of agitation phenomena

I even practiced it in the way where I moved some part of my mind to jhana and when it felt like it is kinda working then I moved it back to not experience any jhana and repeated attempt to move it to jhana until I really got how this worked. Over time it was kinda obvious how to experience jhana just by gently pressing buttons in my mind and I was not able to experience suffering even during Dukkha Nanas except maybe for some parts of the brain which I was not sure how to even locate and issues like that something flickered between two presentations which is always controlled from third place. When ways to deal with all agitation cases are mastered it is obvious how to experience jhana all the time.

If this is not clear this practice have very little to do with normal Samatha object concentration. I actually view attachment to Samatha and Vipassana as violating 3rd fetter "attachment to rites and rituals". Imho true meditation is all about developing inner perception, figuring what does what by doing stuff directly where it is needed without using any specific method. That way when agitation show up and it seems whole mind has it you can locate even a single neuron that is unhappy, put it to something like 8th jhana and make mind instantly calm where all these steps take like few seconds instead of having to concentrate on object for hours working up your way up to 8th jhana.. which might not be even possible if this single neuron really doesn't want to cooperate and it has better stuff to do like scream it is unhappy and need special attention... or it just feels like being mean today emoticon

These classic meditation practices of course have their place and benefits. Doing everything without them is only useful to prove the point...

Hm... I'll keep this in mind and try it, because you are right about the dukkha nanas being excellent for working with cleaning up one's shit, if you'll excuse the wording. I don't have that kind of precision you are describing, but when you describe it like that, I can see how I might get there. Thanks! 

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/4/20 4:51 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
I kinda went ahead with this =P

Dukkha Nanas are not the best to experience jhanas but are kinda the best to practice them. It is hard to calm down whole mind at once but little by little, even one flickering agitated sensation at a time it is possible to shift whole mind in to jhana. To do that you need to know:
- what causes agitation
- how to address individual parts of your nervous system
- how to cause jhana by removing agitation and controlling firing modes
- how to locate parts of mind responsible for each type of agitation phenomena

I even practiced it in the way where I moved some part of my mind to jhana and when it felt like it is kinda working then I moved it back to not experience any jhana and repeated attempt to move it to jhana until I really got how this worked. Over time it was kinda obvious how to experience jhana just by gently pressing buttons in my mind and I was not able to experience suffering even during Dukkha Nanas except maybe for some parts of the brain which I was not sure how to even locate and issues like that something flickered between two presentations which is always controlled from third place. When ways to deal with all agitation cases are mastered it is obvious how to experience jhana all the time.

If this is not clear this practice have very little to do with normal Samatha object concentration. I actually view attachment to Samatha and Vipassana as violating 3rd fetter "attachment to rites and rituals". Imho true meditation is all about developing inner perception, figuring what does what by doing stuff directly where it is needed without using any specific method. That way when agitation show up and it seems whole mind has it you can locate even a single neuron that is unhappy, put it to something like 8th jhana and make mind instantly calm where all these steps take like few seconds instead of having to concentrate on object for hours working up your way up to 8th jhana.. which might not be even possible if this single neuron really doesn't want to cooperate and it has better stuff to do like scream it is unhappy and need special attention... or it just feels like being mean today emoticon

These classic meditation practices of course have their place and benefits. Doing everything without them is only useful to prove the point...

I mainly practice with the breath. What ways have you discovered that create the conditions lift the finger off the agitation buttons and thus allow jhana to flourish? Basic life stuff like weighted blankets, lots of water and sun, chocolate? Btw, I fuck with the Perfect Cell icon. Nice. Just watched that brief fight between him and Goku. Legendary piece of fight choreography.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/5/20 10:50 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
I don't think this is classic...I mean who knows though..my mind is getting darker by the day, no compassion for myself or anyone, no will to do anything whatsoever, just acute pain, dark thoughts, sleeplessness, racing thoughts
Are you normally extrovert?
Maybe your mind turned introvertic and you have no experience with this type of mind operation and that causes fear?

When you are either type, and I mean it like all in or all out, then you do not have experience with the other type because it require years of experience using these brain operation modes. No experience with given situation always produce fear because you need to react and even if you do react you are not sure if it is the right way or right way for you. This include interaction with other people and yourself.

Recently I overdid extrovertic mind a little and I realized I literally have ZERO idea how to actually use it. This exact configuration came to me as an idea because I did feel it in someone and it worked for them just fine. I however have no idea what "natural" mind like this is like because it is not natural for me emoticon

Other way around I am not sure what issue anyone could have. Introversy is pure bliss after all emoticon
But then again it might be scary as hell, things interreupring things, no clear flow of expression of own self happens, and it getting darker etc. If that is what happened then you need to learn to "spin things up" in your mind, then mind will light up and dark will become both deeper and brighter at the same time.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/5/20 10:59 AM as a reply to Zero.
Cell is cool because it has Lord's Frieza cells emoticon

Chocolate usually helps because of its large iron content and iron doesn't usually absorb well because it has lower absorption compared to other meals. Meat is rich in iron but it is rarely eaten alone. I would not go as far myself when I can just eat supplement when I feel iron content is low. Chocolate is good but you do not want it as much when you have proper iron levels.

BTW. If I figure out what androids were made from I would then be able to become my perfect form.
Maybe one day emoticon

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/6/20 2:41 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
That's what I like to heAr and clearly what I came here to hear but is it really classic? NO PErsonality anymore, NO concepts or sense of time, impeded ability to form language, worsening symptoms of social withdrawal, apathy, emptiness...is this classic or just f**ked?


Yeah it is classic. Classic dark night yogi stuff. You've sensitized yourself to dukkha, the mental defences are down, and so you are seeing it everywhere.

I say this in no way to belittle by the way. It's an awesome accomplishment you have made. Rather, to give you hope that you can get out of it, as it's a territory people here have tread. You will find much helpful advice here and in Daniel's book, but IMO it boils down to, keep a practice routine no matter what, investigate diligently, talk through problems with the community, perhaps practice some austerities to aid you, and have confidence you will get through and come out better for it.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/29/20 10:00 PM as a reply to Milo.
Also, let's say I have no ego structure at all. Let's say I get back on the path, and I begin to clear through my emotions and get equanimity again and face sensations. Can you do this with NO EGO STRUCTURE AT ALL? Like as though you are high on mushrooms alllll the time? Can I do anything with no ego structure? Can I get equanimity with no ego structure? Can I love with no ego structure?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/1/20 11:35 AM as a reply to es pro.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/30/20 10:43 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
Sense of self, personality...sense of time... the thing that protects us from facing all of our wounds at once....
and I cannot recreate it, it seems , it's completely gone

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/1/20 11:36 AM as a reply to es pro.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/30/20 1:24 PM as a reply to es pro.
Es Pro,

I say this all with love and a bit of wrath.

You have posted 12 threads on the DhO saying the same thing in slighty different ways. It is obvious you are in distress.

Many people on this forum have given you advice to help you get out of this distress, and it seems like you don't like the advice that is being given.

I am wondering why you keep posting about this if you don't like the advice you're getting and you continue to dismiss it saying it won't work or "yeah, but..."

Are you ready to make some behavioral changes or are you looking to justify your misery?  

Plenty of people on this forum have been through very similar things you describe and this is a good place if you're looking for solidarity and pragmatism. 

I sincerely hope you listen to some of the wisdom people have shared with you. There's quite a lot on these threads.

With love,

Jarrett

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/30/20 4:42 PM as a reply to Jarrett.
Great question. You are absolutely right, I am hesitant to follow basically all advice because I am doubtful that any of it (incl what my therapist suggests) can get me closer to my goal- love. I have no ego structure so what works for most doesn't work for me; structuring my day, achieving things, things like that.
fhe reason I post so much is desperate searching for reassurance, relatability, and if there happened to be that magical fix (although I think I'm done with that hope)

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/30/20 5:32 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Great question. You are absolutely right, I am hesitant to follow basically all advice because I am doubtful that any of it (incl what my therapist suggests) can get me closer to my goal- love. I have no ego structure so what works for most doesn't work for me; structuring my day, achieving things, things like that.
fhe reason I post so much is desperate searching for reassurance, relatability, and if there happened to be that magical fix (although I think I'm done with that hope)

Are you sure you don't have an ego structure? I can sense one from over here. I see an ego structure that is looking for answers, trying to heal itself, doing quite a bit of thinking, feeling alienated and suspicious and experiencing a tremendous amount of pain, doubt, fear and disorientation. I can see an ego structure that is overwhelmed that all this is happening to them, that can't believe it. I see an ego structure that is angry and ashamed that it can't achieve all it wants to right now. All of these are things that egos do. 

Are you sure you don't have any love right now? You came here looking for help and answers. You've enlisted the assistance of a therapist as well. Clearly there are parts of you actively engaged in love and healing right now, that deeply care about your life and what's happening, that want to at the very least try and improve your situation. This love may not be the totality of your experience, it may not be world-shaking explosive love, but it's something, a place to start.

Maybe you could check in more with these voices of love and healing and see if they have any suggestions for you. No worries if they can't be found when you look for them, or if they have seemed to have disappeared, you can always try again another time. 

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
8/30/20 6:28 PM as a reply to Zachary.
Hi,
thank you for these words.. The answer is no I am not sure... all I know is if I had ego structure I would have much higher self esteem and medication and therapy would be working and allow me to heal from trauma... all I know is if every day is the same as the last couple months I would not be ok with that...
and ego structure seems more elusive than love, seems like I shot it down permanently, sooo I'm trying for love for a sense of well being.
but you are right, I do have some functioning sense of self. As much as someone who took a light dose of mushrooms would have. Not a heavy dose, THEN I would not be able to read or write or live my life etc. But I do lack my sense of personality, sense of time, and the total ability to plan or strategize or perform complex functions...I mean ok that's probably because of my racing mind. When i first dissolved it I was doing many different things and had a clear mind. So if I were able to theoretically heal from this and somehow heal my racing mind and love myself I'd be totally ok with not having a sense of self. I just don't know if I can DO that without an ego structure 

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 12:44 PM as a reply to es pro.
I just have a really hard time believing this is classic dark night stuff:
1) extremely self absorbed
2) thought loops repetitive all day "I am miserable, I want out"
3) evil thoughts (possible - probable...? Entity invasion)
4) TOTAL apathy towards all activities, all life, all relationships 
5) no capacity to bond with Anyone anymore
6) an absolute black hole within my heart; the mind of a sociopath
7) dangerously disconnected with my body- can barely feel sensations at all
8) so reactive that meditation would be damaging
9) increasingly socially withdrawn, empty, negative symptoms of psychosis 
10) breathing and blinking is manual...I think because of ego death or disrupted the functioning of my body
11) ego only getting stronger and stronger
12) preeeetty much no desire to live to be honest, no motivation 
13) such low self esteem I can't even call my own grandma 
14) USED TO BE so happy and stable and peaceful inside; NOT the blissful highs of an awakening but a deeper sense of peace.... that I feel like I compromised because of resistance...
15) Even in my dreams I am chasing love and equanimity
16) no sleep without drugs, incredibly vivid dreams 

anyone?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 3:21 PM as a reply to es pro.
So, as others have given their advice about keeping your healthy activities such as seeing a therapist, etc. etc., I'm just gonna share with you a bit of my life story, as well as another example of someone who has gone through a classic dark night, who happens to be my brother :p emoticon In the hope that it can make you feel like you are not alone.

--

For some time I was seeing a psychologist, doing cognitive therapy with another one, supervised by a third one (psychiatrist), because they had diagnosed me as depressed, with social and school phobias. That was when I was a teenager.

No love anymore either, like you describe. I would not say I had lost my ego structure, because I have no idea what you mean by that, but it was like an unknown catastrophe had happened, leaving only ruins in its wake, among which I lived for years, unrecognizable to myself or others, detaching from everybody.

It was a radical transformation honestly. 

I now recognize that this was most probably the dukha ñanas. And circumstances, too, and puberty. It was an extremely dark time. There were many causes for that abyss, but the contrast with the very joyful, cute, sociable me from before, and this utterly withdrawn, dark, almost crazy little guy, with the mind of a sociopath, like you say, was stark. 

When it was time to move out of it, maturation happened on its own and by my own engagement, much to the surprise of the psychologists who I had been going to every week for about a year or two. It was a radical transformation too, and it was pretty quick too. Building a life again took some time though, but hey, it was fine.

I came out of it, and resumed life, a bit damaged, deeper, too mature for my age, and in other ways immature, without many of the normal experiences that kids have during teenage years, but with plenty of spiritual/philosophical insights. Especially, having lacked social contact so much because of this inner turmoil was a pretty tough thing for a child.

But things returned to a new normal eventually. I got friends again, I returned to life very enthusiastically.

As the years passed, there sometimes were bouts of this DN. The last time it kicked my ass, I had already started meditating for a few years. It was the key that allowed me to definitely move away from all the conflictual stuff that came up during first path, or rather, to really, really, make peace with it, to make friends with myself again, to forgive all this darkness I had discovered within myself.

This darkness is present in everyone. Everyone is a potential rapist/killer/sociopath, etc.  The DN is like getting a guided tour to the worst parts of the mind/heart, and having to accept it all, make peace with that, not react to that or judge yourself for it. This is how it loses it's harming power. But it takes time !

I ended up discovering MCTB as I was already pretty deeply established in equanimity. I followed the instructions and quickly got stream entry.

The few months before SE were like rediscovering the simplicity of childhood, and further practice helped all this past stuff to really untangle and dissolve seemingly for good, bringing me to an all time high level of acceptance, simplicity, openness, capacity to be vulnerable, honesty, etc. 

I'm very grateful for all this stuff now. Very very grateful. It was growing pains, basically.

Please believe that this is a normal thing, however desperate you might be right now, and that it should resolve into something profound and balanced and opened some day. 

--

I can also tell you that my brother has been going through the DN this past couple of years, after a goenka retreat, and it has definitely been ugly as hell, kind of sounds like what you're describing. For a while I thought he was going psychotic/schizophrenic tbh. People really thought he was going mental, or was clinically depressed, etc., but it wasn't that, because he was so lucid at the same time that he was more reactive than ever, and paradoxically as deep as he was confused emoticon.

It seemed a bit as if we had lost our joyful and funny P., and that this dark, reactive dick had replaced him.

But now he seems to be really maturing and emerging from this with a new depth of spirit. It's not over yet, there is still resistance and reactivity for him, but the light has gradually come back, if we can put it that way, and I'm pretty confident and hopeful for him. I believe that in a few months, or a year, or something, he will look back on this whole period with gratefulness, newfound simplicity and authenticity. 

As I am hopeful for you.

So, sorry, but as everybody has been telling you, there's no easy way out.

However, there might be an unexpected shift of attitude some day, the first time that you break into equanimity, as we say here. That happened to my brother ; over just one day, his whole attitude shifted from almost psychotic and extremely confused to "oh, a weight has lifted, I'm hopeful again", he started to send me and my mom some deep beautiful messages about dark spiritual wonders and whatnot. It wasn't the end of the story but it was a drastic change over night.

!!!! It was helped by the fact that I managed to convince him that he should keep meditating, even though he thought it was the worst idea in the world...... !!!!

You seem to be totally reactive to all the stuff you are feeling and unable to put distance and surround it with space to welcome it.

But this will develop over time, and is the secret : not changing the feelings, but developing space around them.

Also, in a way, pain is the secret.

This equanimity and openness which will come some day will also be deeper than the intense/ecstatic states you are describing, the "I love everything even pain is wonderful", and more balanced. Because i'll be blunt with you, what you describe as the object of your longing from you past, sounds imbalanced, too intense to be durable, if you know what I mean. Your attachment to those past experiences is probably connected to the intensity of negativity you are experiencing now.

In a way, those might well be two aspects of the same thing - excessive attachment, excessive reactivity.

So, try to chill out my friend. emoticon I hope this doesn't sound mean to you, but it was actually a great way for me to become serious about getting a grip, and it still is a skilfull reflection for me to contemplate : the fact that i'm gonna die some day anyways, so the specifics of my life don't actually matter so much. You know.

Some day a DN yogi has to face all his demons and realize all those scary snakes are just ropes. It might require a lot of different things, which only the yogi can figure out for himself. 

A poem by Rumi, which has always resonated with me and helped me understand what being welcoming with whatever arises means :

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you outfor some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sentas a guide from beyond.

--

And here is a random Ajahn Brahm talk, you might try listening to some of his teachings, his attitude and humor really helped me sometimes : 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY6Q-OnMTEE

Cheers, Es pro, good luck with all this emoticon

ps :

One final piece of adivce. You could contact Dan Ingram, who might be able to help you more effectively than us here. It's worth a try, right ? His email is on his website. Very accessible guy, extremely knowledgable about meditation, medical doctor, with tons of experiences in talking with people who are having distressing experiences connected with the spiritual path.


RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 3:27 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Aw, thank you for sharing this, it does make me feel better! Although the "making space around your pain with time" thing doesn't really resonate. This is what I used to do 6 months ago- I'd meditate a lot and hold space for pain and allow it to move thru me. Then some fear came up and I became more reactive. And then it didn't stop..and I became more reactive. And now it is still not stopping ... and I am extremely reactive still. It is near impossible for me to form a relationship with my pain. It is just immediate reactivity and doom and gloom.... time is not doing ANYTHING for me.
but thanks for this 
and yes, I have actually spoken to Daniel, just yesterday actually- he to my surprise normalized every bit of my experience and said I was just going thru the stages...which did make me feel better...

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 3:27 PM as a reply to es pro.
Hey, I was stuck in this rut for years. My brother was in the shit for about a year, with the peak insanity lasting about 6 months. It's been over two years now and it's still not completely over. 6 months isn't much in this business ! hehe. That is the sign that somethin deep is going on. Gold at the end.


I edited my previous message while you responded, so here is one last thing :  You could contact Dan Ingram, who might be able to help you more effectively than us here. It's worth a try, right ? His email is on his website. Very accessible guy, extremely knowledgable about meditation, medical doctor, with tons of experiences in talking with people who are having distressing experiences connected with the spiritual path (which is ex-treme-ly common). He might also be able to help you tease out whether what you're experiencing is in the domain of psychopathology like you seem to be saying, or if it's just good ol' DN shit.

edit : interesting, you eited your message while I worte this ! lol
Ok then, you're all good. Have fun  emoticon

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 3:32 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Man. Can you say a bit more about how you came out of it? WAs it a clear event of reconnecting with love/happiness?
i basically just don't see an exit route for me...I know that is characteristic of a DN. But. Last time I saw no way out and all of a sudden I had this no-self bliss moment that opened up my heart. Currently there is very little space amidst the chaos of my mind for no-self, it is clinging HARD.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 3:41 PM as a reply to es pro.
Well, no, it wasn't one single event. Honestly, I don't remember the chronology exactly. Just, over time, I became fed up with misery and disgust. I wanted out, I had had enough of this situation. I started to change things. My attitude had changed. 

I would say, I had hit the Desire for deliverance phase, which is like, when all the crap actually still seems to be terrible, but somehow your attitude is different, it's like a desperate, almost angry energy which is somewhat empowering. I don't really know, it just kind of happened on its own, and keep in mind I had no idea that these maps existed.

Over some months/years I took steps to repair things. I met a girl, too emoticon That was definitely a huge help. I am in general more of a gradual path kind of guy wthout very dramatic single time events, unlike some people.

It took a few years. But something was left of the old reactive patterns, fears, etc. I would say, I wast yet actually really established in equanimity. I wouldn't know how to map it though. It was all also connected with life situations and all that.

What really tipped things over eventually, was picking up a meditation practice, and then encountering life situations which just drove the lessons to the bone, and it just felt that it was time to face up, to face every and anything that would come up on the cushion.

Every time I would sit down, and cross my legs, I would feel like this was a symbolic way of saying, "ok, I'm surrendering all my weapons. I'm cutting off my legs here, and I won't run away. "

Turns out there was no monster after all.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 3:43 PM as a reply to es pro.
Can you make the clinging stronger if you try ?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/2/20 11:07 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
I just have a really hard time believing this is classic dark night stuff:
1) extremely self absorbed
2) thought loops repetitive all day "I am miserable, I want out"
3) evil thoughts (possible - probable...? Entity invasion)
4) TOTAL apathy towards all activities, all life, all relationships 
5) no capacity to bond with Anyone anymore
6) an absolute black hole within my heart; the mind of a sociopath
7) dangerously disconnected with my body- can barely feel sensations at all
8) so reactive that meditation would be damaging
9) increasingly socially withdrawn, empty, negative symptoms of psychosis 
10) breathing and blinking is manual...I think because of ego death or disrupted the functioning of my body
11) ego only getting stronger and stronger
12) preeeetty much no desire to live to be honest, no motivation 
13) such low self esteem I can't even call my own grandma 
14) USED TO BE so happy and stable and peaceful inside; NOT the blissful highs of an awakening but a deeper sense of peace.... that I feel like I compromised because of resistance...
15) Even in my dreams I am chasing love and equanimity
16) no sleep without drugs, incredibly vivid dreams 

anyone?
hey es,

I love Olivier's conversation here with you. You really are not alone, in getting this deep in the shit. Almost everyone you hear from here will have their own story of being so fucked up they can't call their own grandma. And most of us chase love and equanimity night and day.

This list reminds me of something i used to do at the utter bottom, when i could no longer muster the energy to resist anything, no matter how bad, and basically preferred death to where I was. I would write down all my worst fears and simply assume that they were, in fact, true. The exercise of assuming the worst somehow lightened things up for me sometimes: I would just sit there as the foulest turd ever dropped in the world, and know that i was still fucking breathing. The only thing to do was not spread my shit around, as far as i could tell. So my mission was to stink in place until death relieved me, basically. But at least it was quiet, and I was doing the least harm possible.

Actually, i feel that way this morning, lol. And here i am, stinking out loud!

Come to think of it, ignore this and go back and read Olivier's posts. That guy smells like gardenias.

love, tim

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/3/20 5:32 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Thanks Tim...I'm not gonna lie it's easy to get caught in the "I'm the only one in the world going thru this exact thing" trip. But Daniel told me even that is a common thing people think on the path, ironically.
im just not so sure this is part of the prescribed path, though. Aka I'm not sure equanimity is at the end of the tunnel. I mean I guess who is ever sure, really. But things are progressing terribly. I am not moving into equanimity. Daniel says it's characteristic in dark nights to think things are getting worse BIT THEY ARE. Progressive symptoms parallel to negative symptoms of psychosis like social withdrawal etc.
i also asked Daniel this personally but wondering where love and equanimity could possibly come from. In my 2018 DN I was separated from love but so aware of the seed of compassion within me. Currently, I do not even detect that seed. It's all darkness and entities and fallen angels and stuff like that lol. Besides the once a week time I cry. So yeah I just don't know where love could come from- it must come from within but..where is the seed. Daily trauma due to this Incessant psychosis type fear loop, is destroying my heart. Sorry to scare everyone as Tim you would say hAhah

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/4/20 1:09 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Thanks Tim...I'm not gonna lie it's easy to get caught in the "I'm the only one in the world going thru this exact thing" trip. But Daniel told me even that is a common thing people think on the path, ironically.
im just not so sure this is part of the prescribed path, though. Aka I'm not sure equanimity is at the end of the tunnel. I mean I guess who is ever sure, really. But things are progressing terribly. I am not moving into equanimity. Daniel says it's characteristic in dark nights to think things are getting worse BIT THEY ARE. Progressive symptoms parallel to negative symptoms of psychosis like social withdrawal etc.
i also asked Daniel this personally but wondering where love and equanimity could possibly come from. In my 2018 DN I was separated from love but so aware of the seed of compassion within me. Currently, I do not even detect that seed. It's all darkness and entities and fallen angels and stuff like that lol. Besides the once a week time I cry. So yeah I just don't know where love could come from- it must come from within but..where is the seed. Daily trauma due to this Incessant psychosis type fear loop, is destroying my heart. Sorry to scare everyone as Tim you would say hAhah
hey, es,

The real mystery of what lightens the dark night is in its very inconceivability. It is neither from "within" nor "without", as the Cloud of Unknowing puts it. Where is the seed? you ask. It doesn't matter. When it sprouts, you will know it has happened. But you still won't be able to say definitively "where it comes from." It is not found in advance, and cannot be anticipated in any particular form; everything we can see coming is already transient, dukkha-ridden, and anatta, not-self. It is reality's surprise. This sounds like complete bullshit. But sorry, that's the best I can offer now.

lol, when i say you scare everyone, there's some black humor in it, of course. The ones who long to help here are as helpless as the one who "needs help." The helplessness is right at the heart of it, for everyone. i mean basically that we all want to ease your misery and see you joyous, and it is tough to watch you going through this. But tough shit for us.

I believe you are in the best, most supported position in basic daily life right now to do this, that you've got as many of the prudent pragmatic bases covered as possible. You've had a lot of dark night yogis check in here to tell you they've been here, right where you are: hopeless, seeing no exit, certain that this horror and emptiness is endless, seeing no way no way no way through, no possible solution. And there isn't. If there was, you would have heard about it by now, and done it. What the dark night really gives you in the end is a faith beyond your own doing, beyond anyone's doing. 

In a way, it is the highest challenge to human creativity, to be stymied and stumped and stalled by the question of reality itself. It would be nuts, irresponsible, to offer you an answer. The dark night wrecks every human answer. But there will be a moment when the question itself presents itself differently to you. Not an answer, then: a movement in the heart and mind and soul, not yours, no one's. Where, why, how? Those only seem to matter until they don't matter at all. May that moment dawn on you soon.

meanwhile, hang tough, you stubborn, willful woman, stronger than hope itself! Accept no substitutes or counterfeits. Play volleyball, if the weather allows. The Tao of volleyball is fathomless.

love, tim

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/4/20 10:39 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
but how do I know I won't be waiting for ever ? My desperation, my clinging each moment, pushes it away. Love comes when you are humble, when you are not looking, when you are least expecting it, doesn't it? Ok I should listen to the voice that said it wa spossible. But literally I spend every waking minute waiting for magic and telling myself that I was told it was possible.

also I think I need to clarify some things that I don't believe can be normal for a dark night.

1) cannot be with myself, like no peace of mind every moment waiting and restless.cannot even watch a movie
2) I DO NOT laugh anymore 
3) my heart is literally a black hole
4) complete sense of disconnection from other people almost as if they don't exist
5) I am literally breathing manually
6) thoughts of hatred and ill will (not accompanied by emotion) (probable entity invasion)
7) zero affection even with my mom, my cat etc
8) complete dissociation from my body, like cannot feel any emotions, feel like my body is air sometimes
9) equanimity is sooooo poor. For example when I'm playing volleyball when the ball hits my arm hard the pain lingers for a long time which never used to happen. My mind is just clinging so hard to sensations
10) no desire to do anything with my life or with my time except eat food and look at old messages on my phone or go on forums
11) so in my own head...so when I'm playing volleyball I have no space in my head or heart to make chit chat with people..my mind is just fighting to survive

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/4/20 11:52 PM as a reply to es pro.
I also have one more question .. I have seen two very high gurus before. The first could speak any language on demand just because he was so connected to universal knowledge. The second could tell you about your future lives. Why wouldn't either of them, with all their knowledge, tell me not to make the mistakes I made that led to such a horrible mental state? ESP if my impact on the world changed so much when I became so unloving and "low vibration". Could it be possible that it wasn't in the interest of the highest good...? Could there be a lesson here? How and when? Can they give people advice to steer the course of their future? I just don't understand how if s guru could see that I would make suicide attempt and dissolve my ego structure if he so miserable, they wouldn't tell me not to??

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/5/20 1:21 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
but how do I know I won't be waiting for ever ? My desperation, my clinging each moment, pushes it away. Love comes when you are humble, when you are not looking, when you are least expecting it, doesn't it? Ok I should listen to the voice that said it wa spossible. But literally I spend every waking minute waiting for magic and telling myself that I was told it was possible.

also I think I need to clarify some things that I don't believe can be normal for a dark night.

1) cannot be with myself, like no peace of mind every moment waiting and restless.cannot even watch a movie
2) I DO NOT laugh anymore 
3) my heart is literally a black hole
4) complete sense of disconnection from other people almost as if they don't exist
5) I am literally breathing manually
6) thoughts of hatred and ill will (not accompanied by emotion) (probable entity invasion)
7) zero affection even with my mom, my cat etc
8) complete dissociation from my body, like cannot feel any emotions, feel like my body is air sometimes
9) equanimity is sooooo poor. For example when I'm playing volleyball when the ball hits my arm hard the pain lingers for a long time which never used to happen. My mind is just clinging so hard to sensations
10) no desire to do anything with my life or with my time except eat food and look at old messages on my phone or go on forums
11) so in my own head...so when I'm playing volleyball I have no space in my head or heart to make chit chat with people..my mind is just fighting to survive

es, The fact that you have the lucidity to observe all these symptoms and conditions speaks for itself. You are still here, and your mind is indeed fighting to survive an unendurable state. There is a simple old Vedantic meditation, in which the practitioner says, to everything that arises, "Neti, neti," meaning "not this, not this." This seems to be where you are, with regard to any possible solutions to your present condition. It is the same koan in a different form: if nothing is IT, if everything that arises is just more transient no-self dukkha, then, what? It is probably no comfort at all if i say that you are uniquely positioned, in this dry emptiness and horror of nothing good, to experience the fruit of nothing being this, that, or IT. Your sense of every "this" is being eroded through lack of sustenance; your constructions are falling apart; your misguided motivations are starving to death. If there really is nothing that survives such a state and such a purgation, if "neti, neti" is all there is, then . . . well, here we are. The shit is the same shit for both of us. If what you are experiencing is the ultimate truth of human reality, then it really is all samsara and the Buddha was wrong, there's no way out. I have actually lived with that possibility for long periods myself, and what I have found is that there is a place, not at the bottom, but without a bottom or a top, where that is okay. That is the place where everything happens. But what happens from that place is no longer our doing.

This is the same old shit, of course: neti, neti.

i am going to offer a passage from John of the Cross, from Book II, Chapter 6 in his "The Dark Night." The language is gnarly for a non-16th-century non-Christian, to say the least, lol, but i think the human realities come through. It may just be noise to you, but it does offer yet another testimony that other people have been in similar conditions.


2. David describes this suffering and affliction - although it is truly beyond all description - when he says: The sighs of death encircled me, the sorrows of hell surrounded me, in my tribulation I cried out [Ps. 18:5-6].
But what the sorrowing soul feels most is the conviction that God has rejected it, and with abhorrence cast it into darkness. The thought that God has abandoned it is a piteous and heavy affliction for the soul. When David also felt this affliction he cried: In the manner of the wounded, dead in the sepulchers, abandoned now by your hand so that you remember them no longer, so have you placed me in the deepest and lowest lake, in the darkness and shadow of death, and your wrath weighs on me, and all your waves you have let loose on me [Ps. 88:4-7].
When this purgative contemplation oppresses a soul, it feels very vividly indeed the shadow of death, the sighs of death, and the sorrows of hell, all of which reflect the feeling of God's absence, of being chastised and rejected by him, and of being unworthy of him, as well as the object of his anger. The soul experiences all this and even more, for now it seems that this affliction will last forever.

3. Such persons also feel forsaken and despised by creatures, particularly by their friends. David immediately adds: You have withdrawn my friends and acquaintances far from me; they have considered me an abomination [Ps. 88:8]. Jonah, as one who also underwent this experience, both physically and spiritually in the belly of the whale, testifies: You have cast me out into the deep, into the heart of the sea, and the current surrounded me; all its whirlpools and waves passed over me and I said: I am cast from the sight of your eyes; yet I shall see your holy temple again (he says this because God purifies the soul that it might see his temple); the waters encircled me even to the soul, the abyss went round about me, the open sea covered my head, I descended to the lowest parts of the mountains, the locks of the earth closed me up forever [Jon. 2:4-7]. The "locks" refer to the soul's imperfections that hinder it from enjoying the delights of this contemplation.

4. Another excellence of dark contemplation, its majesty and grandeur, causes a fourth kind of affliction to the soul. This property makes the soul feel within itself the other extreme - its own intimate poverty and misery. Such awareness is one of the chief afflictions it suffers in the purgation.
The soul experiences an emptiness and poverty in regard to three classes of goods (temporal, natural, and spiritual) which are directed toward pleasing it, and is conscious of being placed in the midst of the contrary evils (the miseries of imperfections, aridities and voids in the apprehensions of the faculties, and an abandonment of the spirit in darkness).
Since God here purges both the sensory and spiritual substance of the soul, and its interior and exterior faculties, it is appropriately brought into emptiness, poverty, and abandonment in these parts, and left in dryness and darkness. For the sensory part is purified by aridity, the faculties by the void of their apprehensions, and the spirit by thick darkness.

5. God does all this by means of dark contemplation. And the soul not only suffers the void and suspension of these natural supports and apprehensions, which is a terrible anguish (like hanging in midair, unable to breathe), but it is also purged by this contemplation. As fire consumes the tarnish and rust of metal, this contemplation annihilates, empties, and consumes all the affections and imperfect habits the soul contracted throughout its life. Since these imperfections are deeply rooted in the substance of the soul, in addition to this poverty, this natural and spiritual emptiness, it usually suffers an oppressive undoing and an inner torment. Thus the passage of Ezekiel may be verified: Heap together the bones, and I shall burn them in the fire, the flesh shall be consumed, and the whole composition burned, and the bones destroyed [Ez. 24:10]. He refers here to the affliction suffered in the emptiness and poverty of both the sensory and the spiritual substance of the soul. And he then adds: Place it also thus empty on the embers that its metal may become hot and melt and its uncleanness be taken away from it and its rust consumed [Ez. 24:11]. This passage points out the heavy affliction the soul suffers from the purgation caused by the fire of this contemplation. For the prophet asserts that in order to burn away the rust of the affections the soul must, as it were, be annihilated and undone in the measure that these passions and imperfections are connatural to it.

6. Because the soul is purified in this forge like gold in the crucible, as the Wise Man says [Wis. 3:6], it feels both this terrible undoing in its very substance and extreme poverty as though it were approaching its end. This experience is expressed in David's cry: Save me, Lord, for the waters have come in even unto my soul; I am stuck in the mire of the deep, and there is nowhere to stand; I have come unto the depth of the sea, and the tempest has overwhelmed me. I have labored in crying out, my throat has become hoarse, my eyes have failed while I hope in my God [Ps. 69:1-3].
God humbles the soul greatly in order to exalt it greatly afterward. And if he did not ordain that these feelings, when quickened in the soul, be soon put to sleep again, a person would die in a few days. Only at intervals is one aware of these feelings in all their intensity. Sometimes this experience is so vivid that it seems to the soul that it sees hell and perdition open before it. These are the ones who go down into hell alive [Ps. 55:15], since their purgation on earth is similar to what takes place there. For this purgation is what would have to be undergone there. The soul that endures it here on earth either does not enter that place, or is detained there for only a short while. It gains more in one hour here on earth by this purgation than it would in many there.

if that doesn't brighten your day, I don't know what will.

love, tim

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/5/20 4:34 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
but how do I know I won't be waiting for ever ? ...

For example when I'm playing volleyball ...

What, you're playing volleyball ? With other people ? You socialite.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/5/20 8:11 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Haha yeah right

also can the other things be acknowledged, all the bullet points that I believe are not part of dark night ? Especially about social withdrawal. It is bad. I sit in conversation and have nothing I can or want to say, I'm so wrapped up in my own thought loop of "fuck this I want out" and also just don't FEEL human bonding anymore... I can't even concentrate on what people are telling me... I don't THINK about anything anymore other than my own mind and it has all gotten so much worse within a mere five months, in April/May I was socializing joyfully... how far does it get so that it's pathological and not normal? 

also the part about the gurus..like WHY wouldn't they say something if these catastrophic events could have been avoided? YES I do know it could have been avoided if I hadn't made suicide attempts and opened up my crown chakra.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/5/20 11:31 PM as a reply to es pro.
Oh and if it is possible to"enter into equanimity" if: my thoughts are so fAst they are every nanosecond, there is nothing in my heart to blossom, my ego is sooooo strong ie the walls around my heart, my breath is manual and is not a no-self occurrence it is grasping and aversion, i am constantly obsessing about love and awakening pretty much every nanosecond of the day. It's all I think about. How can love ever come back amidst this ego and this obsession. Maybe I am impatient but in five months it has seemed incredibly impossible . Like TOTAL disconnection from my soul, again literally the heart/mind of a sociopath, can feel nothing. Not even pain, just nothingness. A total zombie. I'm sure St. John was not a zombie during his dark night.
like I again just do not see where love can come from. I guess this is the idea that most people experience something similar. But really...since day in day out it has been a total desert for about four months now...  HOW can it come. Why later and not now? How could the next few months be different from the last few?

in 2018 I thought things were bad. I "couldn't feel love" meanwhile I was crying a lot, cuddling and hugging people, laughing and enjoying volleyball, going to dance parties...this...is UTTER zombie like existence. And I know it, I am totally self aware of it; I just cannot change. I literally wait for salvation meanwhile I worry I am just pushing it away. Help me lol

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/6/20 3:40 AM as a reply to es pro.
Why don't you try (anything)? Assume you will fail for sure, but why don't you try for the sake of trying and moving forward? What would you lose?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/6/20 7:15 AM as a reply to es pro.
What about my suggestion of trying to make the clinging stronger, did you try ? What happens if you do that, precisely ?

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/6/20 1:05 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Well..I don't know if it is possible to cling harder. Like I said, moment to moment obsession about love and about the state of my mind.
the only thing I could do is try harder to kiss someone. In 2018 my heart broke open when I was doing that . Assuming I will fail yes but I could still try

still doesn't acknowledge the guru thing. Hehe...very fixated on this. Very baffled.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/6/20 1:18 PM as a reply to es pro.
Try it for a while and report back please emoticon

The guru thing : it's their business, if they told people that what you're experiencing can happen, people would not pay money to hear what they have to say.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/6/20 1:40 PM as a reply to Olivier.
Ok..I will try although not exactly sure what I can do...

no definitely wasn't about money, these guys were high up and legit old dudes. One of them lived off of like nothing 

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/6/20 5:18 PM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Well..I don't know if it is possible to cling harder. Like I said, moment to moment obsession about love and about the state of my mind.
the only thing I could do is try harder to kiss someone. In 2018 my heart broke open when I was doing that . Assuming I will fail yes but I could still try

still doesn't acknowledge the guru thing. Hehe...very fixated on this. Very baffled.

adopt a cat or a dog!

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/6/20 9:01 PM as a reply to Jarrett.
I have 3 cats

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/7/20 1:34 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Haha yeah right

also can the other things be acknowledged, all the bullet points that I believe are not part of dark night ? Especially about social withdrawal. It is bad. I sit in conversation and have nothing I can or want to say, I'm so wrapped up in my own thought loop of "fuck this I want out" and also just don't FEEL human bonding anymore... I can't even concentrate on what people are telling me... 
 hi es,

for me, a complete collapse of my social functionality was part and parcel of the worst phases of the dark night. Think of Job, sitting on his dung heap, with the three friends telling him why this total devastation of his life was all part of God's perfect plan. He basically told them all to fuck off. And he was right, in the end. They weren't helping him, they were talking around his actual condition, in the service of their own need to not believe that there but for the grace--- and horror--- of God went they themselves. Job says, "But as for you all, I cannot find one wise man among you." (Job 17:10) You're on the shit pile right now, and nothing and no one helps. How could you pretend it does? And how could anyone advising you to do something that is patently insufficient to your situation be anything but noise? "Fuck this, I want out" is what Job says throughout his entire ordeal. He literally curses the day he was born. "If I wait, the grave is my house," he says. "I have made my bed in darkness." When you've made your bed in darkness with nothing but the grave to look forward to, it doesn't help when people tell you to change the sheets or try a new pillow cover.
I don't THINK about anything anymore other than my own mind and it has all gotten so much worse within a mere five months, in April/May I was socializing joyfully... how far does it get so that it's pathological and not normal? 
there is nothing normal about the dark night. It is more or less indistinguishable from pathology in almost all of its manifestations; in many ways, it is a devastating critique and acid test of what passes for normality, and we must let go of tremendous amounts of our "normal" self-image during the course of it, to survive it at all. We call the night "classic" here, but we are a very weird and select crew of geeks and nut jobs way along on very strange and unnormal paths. The dark night comes with the territory of the spiritual path, but the spiritual path itself is not normal, and any normative fruits it bears are won at the expense of a very hard work of integration. You've done a big round of exaltation and collapse, and this collapse seems definitive to you. Of COURSE that has your full attention. And it will until something gives.
also the part about the gurus..like WHY wouldn't they say something if these catastrophic events could have been avoided? YES I do know it could have been avoided if I hadn't made suicide attempts and opened up my crown chakra.

first of all, fuck the fucking gurus.

second of all, "these catastrophic events" could not, in my take on where you are at, have been avoided. The dark night is not a mistake, it is a corrective. It is not a punishment for bad behavior, and it is not the result of a mis-step by you. It is more like a hurricane, and it is blowing down everything that can't stand up to hurricane winds and rain and flooding. Hurricanes hit, on the path. You actually did a lot of things right, to get yourself into hurricane country in the first place. And you'll know how and what you want to build or rebuild in improved form, when this storm has passed. Meanwhile, you're miserable and scared and sure this is the end of everything good. Well, amen.

love, tim

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/7/20 3:40 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Mmmm no I really think it was a result of my mistakes and could have been avoided. Here is why. As I have probably annoyingly emphasized, I was doing really well before this. Shedding my ego, stable, loving, in peace, increasingly. And then some more kundalini energy came back, that instead of surrendering to, I resisted. Again and again. And didn't get help until I felt completely empty inside. And then made those suicide attempts that allowed a lot of darkness in. And then opened up that crown chakra which destabilized me to the utmost maximum. Easily could have been avoided. But I'll say it was inevitable if and when this shit passes.

RE: FULL BLOWN EGO DEATH!!!
Answer
9/8/20 12:13 AM as a reply to es pro.
es pro:
Mmmm no I really think it was a result of my mistakes and could have been avoided. Here is why. As I have probably annoyingly emphasized, I was doing really well before this. Shedding my ego, stable, loving, in peace, increasingly. And then some more kundalini energy came back, that instead of surrendering to, I resisted. Again and again. And didn't get help until I felt completely empty inside. And then made those suicide attempts that allowed a lot of darkness in. And then opened up that crown chakra which destabilized me to the utmost maximum. Easily could have been avoided. But I'll say it was inevitable if and when this shit passes.

lol, okay, it's a deal.