Does anyone know a teacher or book that teaches Anapanasati according to the suttas?

Also, I would like to know if my understanding of the suttas is correct with these translations:

1. "Mindfulness in front" -  To me means in front of everything else, before anything else one should always be mindful, most important, without that the rest is useless and pointless. Forever mindful. No nose, upper lip or front of your face or any other partial cut out mindfulness from the full awareness I think the Buddag ment. 


2. "Long and short breath" - To me means, "distance". Not "duration"
This is why the sutta starts with long breath since when you start your sitting your breath is always traveling the whole path in the body, full movement. 
When the body and mind gets calmer, the distance get shorter and shorter and movement less and less.

If one count duration though it's the other way around, starts short and gets longer and longer. I think not that is what Buddha taught when putting long before short. Some even try to control the short and long breath, to me that is madness. You should only be mindful and aware of what is going on. Stop changing and forcing, the only thing one should do is set up mindfulness and keep it there. Then follow the steps of what to point some awareness to.


3. "The Experience Whole body" - To me means the whole physical body, already on the "breathing in long/short step" you are aware of the whole breath body. How can you be aware of your breath and not be aware of the whole breath from start, middle and finish. Go back to prelims  and set up mindulness and  "Breathing in I know I'm breathing in". It aint that hard, it's harder to keep it there though, that's the training.



This is what I've learned from reading what the Buddha said and by trying for myself. I have only come to step 4, calming the body which to me means the whole pysical body again. Who can you cut out the breath body from the rest of the body, weird. Calming the whole body with every in and out breath. To me these steps are natural and logical. 

But who teaches like this? No nostrils, no breath body, no controling short or long durations of the breath. Full awareness and being aware of the whole breath all the time, gentle and calm with full mindfulness.

I would like to find a teacher who teach like this, is there any? I would like to know how to proceed from where I am through the rest of the steps. Coming here took a long time since there is so many different translations. They are unatural and not logical. The Buddha did it natural and in a logical progression. Who teach it like that?

It took me years to get to step 4 in this natural flow trough the steps. Would love to have som guidence. Anyone know a teacher with the same translations as I found my self?

I hope there is a teacher who sees it like I do, is there? So grateful for all help in a direction to a teacher who follow the Buddhas teaching as close as possible.

Thanks for reading to here!

I recommend the book "Breathe You Are Alive" by Thich Nhat Hanh.

Teachings according to the sutras can be found here

https://accesstoinsight.org

https://www.dhammatalks.org

(I recommend the books by Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html

I may be the only person who believes this, but I say it means put your attention on your lips because, like smiling, it helps to initiate the jhanas. 

I interpret the sutras so that my understanding agrees with my experiences. 

As far as I know, a literal translation of the original word is "mouth" and the linguists say it is an idiom for front like the mouth of a river is the front of the river.




I think long breath means a deep breath (more air into your lungs) and short breath means a shallow breath (less air into your lungs).


I agree it means focus your attention on your whole body.



Have a look at this book:

https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#eachandeverybreath

Or at this guided meditation by the same author:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/guided.html

If you like the way it says to meditate, you can contact Thanissaro Bhikkhu by mail and he will answer question you ask.

https://www.watmetta.org/contact.html

Who wants to tell him?

I tried Thanissaro Bhikkhu a lot a few years ago, he just used "Breathe through your whole body" as the one and only step. I always start from step one all the way through, faster and faster though but always through the steps. I want to follow the steps as the Buddha taught them.

I've seen some translatons that say "All around". I do not know about exact translations. I think whats more logical. Being aware of the whole breath with full wide awareness or focus on a small point in these early stages. I think wide and full awareness is more logical. Too much focus makes me sleepy and may also cause headache and tension.



I think that is wrong kind of jhana. Too much focus, that is Brahman jhanas where all this focusing comes from. Buddha jhanas is joy through the whole body entering jhana. Nimitta jhanas is not mentioned in the suttas if I'm correct, but this is just what I think and do not know. I do believe there is different jhanas though, those the Buddha learned from his teachers before he became the Buddha. He later taught different jhanas, I believe. Open awareness and less focusing. No nimitta jhanas.



Yes, long more air and deeper, short shallow and not so deep. I always start out deeper than what I breathe after 30+ minutes. It never goes from short to longer. Progression from deep/long to calmer and more shallow until almost gone, boom, step three whole body breathing.



It's the transition from step 4 to 5 I now feel uncertain about. Up until step 4 everything felt natural but now. From calming the body to experiencing joy, and then the rest of the steps. I will check out all you links to see if there is any good transitions.

Thanks!

Bhante Vimalaramsi has a few books on practicing according to the anapanasati sutta.  At first he taught using the breath as object, but these days they prefer to have students do metta practice.  I believe they require you to do a metta online course/retreat and if that doesn't work for you then they'll teach you breath meditation as per the suttas.  

He has free .pdfs available, one is titled the 'anapanasati sutta' if you want to see what he's all about.  I'm not sure about him, I've seen him do some odd things, say some odd things.

Or, Thanissaro Bhikku's book "with each and every breath" is very close to the anapanasati sutta, Larry Rosenberg's "breath by breath" is too.  Peace,  

Will check his PDF about anapanasati. I have tried his metta meditation but that is "his" way and not the Buddha's way. He has made a whole new practice where you relaxing a point in the forehead with every breath. Where does the Buddha say that? But I will have another check on his anapanasati sutta PDF.

May I ask, what odd things have you seen him do? You made me currious.



Will have a look at this too, thanks!

I like Buddhadasa's book Mindfulness with Breathing and it sticks closely to the suttas. His first book Anapanasati is even more canonical.

Will check him out too. I've been carful about thai teachers since they all enjoy the nose and mantra practice i.e bud dho on every in and out breath but Buddhadasa may stick to the suttas and not the commentaries as Theravada sadly does. I've heard much about his temple in Chaiya, it is/was different from "normal" thai temples, sadly he's past away but his books might hold some answers. 





Thank you everybody! I sure will find a way through the steps now, of course will try what works for me but surely some of what you've all mentioned here will have the answers I seek.

Much appreciated! Very kind of you! 

This is what I was looking for. When I read about the steps in that book I knew what to do next and it felt natural. I think this is the book/guide that will bring me further now. Thanks Jim!


Time for the second tetrad now...

Dhammarato teaches anapanasati - https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/67lac9/community_dhammarato/

You can email him to introduce yourself & then do a skype call if you want.  No need to record the call you can ask not to record.  He has some interviews with guru viking now as well as the youtube channel, if you want to sample his teachings first.

I've listen to him too lately. I think the whole thing he does with free 1on1 skype calls is a great modern way of teaching that reach many.

But, he thinks "I understand that I'm breathing in long, I understand that I'm breathing out long" means to deliberately taking long deep breaths.

I believe meditation is about being aware without interference and just being in the present moment and watch what is happening. No controlling or doing is involved except for setting up minfulness, when it's lost and remembered put it up again and be aware of what is happening in the present moment. Then The Buddha gave us some things to watch as well, long breath, short breath, whole body and so on. Just knowing and being aware, not do anything.

I may be wrong but this is what I feel is right, being aware in the present moment, follow the steps as a part of the awareness to train mindfulness and concentration together, not something to do or change. Each step is a preparation for the next. Long breath leads to shorter and this lead to greater minfulness so you then can be aware of the whole body, then calming the whole body so that the next step/joy can araise in the whole body and so on and so on.

Basically:
Awareness in the present moment, being aware of everything with some attention to the instructons without losing the present moment.

Being mindful in the present moment with the help of the breath. Being mindful is the goal, the breath is just a help to do that, not the other way around

Easy instructions, hard to do. Practice makes perfect though.

His goal in stressing this is to make sure the student's mind is getting plenty of oxygen at the start of the session. That's why "long breaths" is the first step of Anapanasati which leads to "short breaths" and so on. A lot of teachers have antidotes for dullness or sleepiness but "controlling the breath" is out of the question for many traditions, unfortunately. I battled with this in my own practice for a while until I met Dhammarato and started taking deep breaths at the beginning of the session until my breaths naturally settled into a natural rhythm that was less and less controlled. 

I believe meditation is about being aware without interference and just being in the present moment and watch what is happening. No controlling or doing is involved except for setting up minfulness, when it's lost and remembered put it up again and be aware of what is happening in the present moment. Then The Buddha gave us some things to watch as well, long breath, short breath, whole body and so on. Just knowing and being aware, not do anything.

I may be wrong but this is what I feel is right, being aware in the present moment, follow the steps as a part of the awareness to train mindfulness and concentration together, not something to do or change. Each step is a preparation for the next. Long breath leads to shorter and this lead to greater minfulness so you then can be aware of the whole body, then calming the whole body so that the next step/joy can araise in the whole body and so on and so on.

Basically:
Awareness in the present moment, being aware of everything with some attention to the instructons without losing the present moment.

Being mindful in the present moment with the help of the breath. Being mindful is the goal, the breath is just a help to do that, not the other way around

Easy instructions, hard to do. Practice makes perfect though.
You got it !  Stop the nitpicking. Concentration expands. I like the term attention more because it's a common expression that  everyone understands.  Ever looked for your keys desperately only to find them right in front of you, or the phone in your hand ?  They were momentarily out of the range of your attention. But they were always there.  The Anapanasati Sutta describes an ever widening range of attention mediated by the breath.  You start with the basic attention on the fact that you are breathing.  Most of the time, as soon as you put your attention on the feeling of the breath it will initiate a deep breath. If you relax into it you feel it go to the top of your head. From there, as your attention strengthens, you continue noticing more and more.  The importance of this Sutta is that it confirms that the highest goals are achievable by this means. If this method is what you are drawn to follow it.  Please, read the Sutta well, understand it and forget about it. Like looking at the hands of a clock, constantly checking where you are won't make things go any faster. Paying close moment to moment attention will.  

"Ever looked for your keys desperately only to find them right in front of you, or the phone in your hand ? "

Ha! I always laugh when I look for my sunglasses just to have someone point that they are on my head  

He can do what he want for whatever reason he want. But I just ment that I do not believe this what the Buddha ment. I personaly think the Buddha ment being aware and knowing that the breath is long, it's alwasy longer in the beginning of the sits, as one gets calmer the breath gets shorter and more shallow. When there is no breath to feel anymore you are at step 3 and move to the whole body. There is never any need to control nor look for any sensation of the breath. 

I used too get dull, the reason for this was my awareness was to focused, when I started to open my mind to everything my dullness went away. As long as I've had enough rest and sleep of course. Wide awareness, fully aware all the time.

The most important part of the Anapanasatti Sutta for me is this one and can be applied to Noting as well as Mantra as well as Kasina as well as breath meditation. And it develops in exact way in my experience as described in the Sutta. Note; Concentration is result of all the previous factors. Meaning you don't concentrate on anything but rather pay attention without a laps as your first step (noting aloud helps here a lot). You can do that under your nose noticing it changing, lower abdomen changing, just thinking matter of fact this is in and this outbreath always changing, noticing matter of fact sensations changing, attention to singing vibrating mantra changing, Kasina object seeing and it's changing, sensation of ars gone numb and it's changing ... ardent, alert and mindful. 

In the start there is applied thought and effort to get the mindfulness factor going. That's just the way it is. Thinking constantly "this is breathing long this is breathing short" or noting aloud 1-5 sensations per second is the same = applied thought. Effort is self explanatory. Must invest energy to keep this going. Keep going and the other factors one by one join in. 

All that "tip of nose, under nose, front of chest, lower abdomen, must be long, must be short, behind the ear, just above the ars, ..." is nonsense. Just find that which is of most interest to you. I prefer open eye Kasina for one pointedness while still noting freestyle all other aspects arising and breathing is also included often as indeed it's happening very often  

Kenneth Folk said something like "we must only awake to EVERYTHING" not only breath, not only absorption but Everything which luckily for us is just 40 mind moments per second  

I hope my reply is not causing more confusion (I do feel strange as of late, king of dazed and confused a bit so please take my words with a grain of salt)


The Seven Factors for Awakening

"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination?"[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development."[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development."[3] In one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, persistence is aroused unflaggingly. When persistence is aroused unflaggingly in one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then persistence as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development."[4] In one whose persistence is aroused, a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises. When a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises in one whose persistence is aroused, then rapture as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development."[5] For one enraptured at heart, the body grows calm and the mind grows calm. When the body & mind of a monk enraptured at heart grow calm, then serenity as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development."[6] For one who is at ease — his body calmed — the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind of one who is at ease — his body calmed — becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development."[7] He carefully watches the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he carefully watches the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development.(Similarly with the other three frames of reference: feelings, mind, & mental qualities.)"This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination.

The reason I'm nitpicking is because of all the different "methods" everyone use. I want to find the way the Buddha ment it to be. To me the Buddhas way is the most logical, easiest, and fastest way. No forcing, no controlling. The Buddha is one of the wisest men to ever walk this earth, he layed down the steps in the most logical and basic way possible, no need to complicate it. It's so straight forward and progressive, if you only read the steps and practice accordingly it is so natural. It's listening to all "teachers" that has made me so confused for so many years. I hope one day I will be able to teach the anapanasati sutta in this simple way, as close to the instructions as possible.

It's like a modern art painting where some see a whole drama played out with two brush strokes and a dot. I see only the strokes and the dot, the drama is not there for me. I see only the sutta instructions, all the extra rules and philosophy is not there. So many "teachers" are overcomplicating the steps and the method to go through them. 

My reason for nitpicking ;)

"I want to find the way the Buddha ment it to be."

He really really meant that monk is to be ardent, alert and mindful and when "farting out long, monk knows I'm farting out long, and when farting out short, monk knows I'm farting out short" then there is knowing of the smelling and if it's pleasant, neutral or unpleasant. 

I hope my reply does not cause even more confusion but is of great benefit instead.  

Just one step further. Like the smell, disappear into Oneness.

Fart jokes, so funny, when I was 12. This is like reading youtube comments now.




I found what I started the thread for. "Breathe You Are Alive" by Thich Nhat Hanh 
My style of awareness practice without a fixed point of attention in the early stages. Thanks Jim!

My apologies for joking about it even though I was serious about the farts being part of THIS also.  

However I am glad you have found the right way to practice as there is nothing worse but have doubt in your practice which is to carry you over the sea of Samsara.

Please ignore the fool I am and benefit from your practice friend  
Best wishes! 

I don't think we really know what is the Buddha's way of doing this. You're talking about your interpretation of the sutta (which is somebody else's recollection of how the Buddha framed this). I think the guidelines are presented in a general manner for a reason. I don't think the specifics apply to all practitioners.

I think you're using this image that you've created of the Buddha to validate to your sutta interpretation.

If you find your interpretation is very functional, why do you feel the need for teachers to mirror it as well?

I would advise against using a single word to deduce the intention of a statement. The preserved versions of the suttas don't match perfectly (maybe errors when copying), and the "official" version was decided through comparison. You also have the translator's spin on it. (the translation being performed using western Christian-influenced language that doesn't really map that well to ancient Asian concepts)

I think this is part of the problem, it looks like your sutta interpretations are not really helping you progress.

Regarding this, a skillful interpretation for me was not considering the steps as a recipe that you follow sequentially. The four tetrads cover one of the foundations/abidings of mindfulness, and I work which each aspect as presents itself, or as needed. Regarding step 4, the body will not be fully calm until the mind is calm, so don't expect to be done with it soon.

I think that this way of jumping from step to step as appropriate fits more with your idea of not controlling, rather than trying to follow the sequence linearly from the start each time you sit.

While it may be comforting to think that you have this simple step by step infallible formula for progressing, handed down from the most perfect human being that ever walked the earth, I find it fairly unhelpful, since you're dealing with complex non-linear systems, and rudimentary do this, then that instructions are simply not up to the task. More nuance is required here.

Wish you well, and enjoy your practice!

Edit: While it may seem like I don't think much of the steps of Anapanasati, this is not the case. I just find it more useful as a general framework, rather than a list where you check things off in order

I do think this applies to all if done as the Buddha layed it out. I do believe it is a natural process and any at least healthy human would be able to follow it as instructed.


I'm thinking of all that I've read about the Buddha, the dharma and meditation, Then combining that with the practice I've done. This is what I found/saw.


Actually, my translation comes not only from the English, it also comes from Thai. They are using long as distance in the anapanasati sutta. They use the word "jao" which means long as in distance, not "nan" that means long time. You are assuming a lot now, too much really.


Because I want to save people from having to go through a jungle of teachers that all say different things, save people years of following a teacher sayiing he is buddhist but are not using the anapanasati as it is written and instead using his teachers style. The one and only teacher should be and is the Buddha, not a bent or manipulated version of it. No big names like Goenka, Mahasi or any other name should be connected to buddhism, the Buddha and the anapanasati sutta is the teacher and the instructions IF one will use the term buddhist meditation. If they want to use their own style, then show the Buddha som respect and change the name of their teachings/religion as well.


To me they are in order for the best and most natural process. Sure one can jump how one want but for what reason? To show that you are able to do that? Why not do it as it is layed out. Each step is helping the nex, the are connected, not randomly there to be chosen from. Each step lays a foundation for the next. I believe a skilled meditatior can pass through the steps in seconds, at least I can with the first tetrad after sitting a while. When a thought has taken over my mind I always go back to setting up mindulness and then start over and it goes fast through the steps to where I was. Why would one have to jump over, I don't get it.


What we do know is what is said in the anapanasati sutta, let's try that without adding anything first. No tip of the nose, no stomach, no mantra, no noting, no controlling the breath. Just do what the steps say without complicating it.


I did not write: "from the most perfect human being that ever walked the earth". I said one of the wisest men to ever walk this earth. Huge difference but to be fair I think your words are more accurate though. He was an arahant, what is more perfect than that?

I did not say the progress is linear, what I say is linear is the road map. Like peeling an onion, you can not peel the inner layers before the outer. Though we all do it in different speed, putting som layers back to then later peel them again and so on, but still it is peeled in the same way layer by layer, step by step with a lot of nuances.

I'm sorry if me talking about issues of sutta reliability seemed condescending. I think Thai would still have some similar issues. Even trying to translate Pali directly is problematic. Which dictionary are you going to use, how will you interpret the context?

My points would be:

1. How do we know how accurately the sutta represents meditation instruction (being written down after 500 years of oral transmission, and also having the issue of how do we interpret Pali correctly)?

2. How can we be sure that the sequence of Anapanasati is meant as direct instruction, or as a series of guideposts?

3. All language is relative (words only mean something in relation to other words, one word has no inherent meaning on its own), and we don't have the exact same internal representations for words as other people - clearly illustrated by the multitude of interpretation. To some people, the same instruction might have a different meaning or emphasis. This is why it's important to be around people from the tradition, to absorb their way of thinking and acting. This is why Zen isn't really big on textual transmission and considers that the real transmission is from one mind to another. (I don't agree fully with this point of view)

4. Why do you consider that the sutta is the best direct instruction on the path? The only argument for this is taking the tradition on its word that this is how it came from the Buddha, and that the Buddha was an unsurpassed meditation teacher. (I'm not arguing against this).

You could have picked a different framework for this, and applied the same arguments to that. The only difference might be how popular the tradition and the initiator of it is, along with how many people are reported to be enlightened from the tradition. The teachings are subjectively convincing to you, and so you assign them authority. You are essentially applying the same structure that a member of a Christian denomination would be applying to justify his view of the Bible but just have different content inside of the structure. (nothing against the Christian faith, but just picked something accessible to westerners)

Also, you can't know the mind of another, so when you pick up on some instruction, it will always be your version of the instruction. If there was an exact definitive version, it would be impossible to know it.

This is because you have the idea that there is a predefined sequence of practice that leads to enlightenment. Subjects are presented linearly because you have to pick an order when writing it down. This doesn't imply that this is the best order for everybody. It just the order that the author thought best at the time.

A lot of people like to reffer to Buddhadasa's books on Anapanasati as an argument  for the linear sequence. He mentions in the books that you can use a "shortcut" method, by just doing tethrad 1 and tetrad 4, leaving the ideea that you have to go through all very wonky. Also, the books are compiled from retreat talks. He presented the teachings sequentially to the retreatants, but that's not the same way that people staying there permanently were instructed.

Another example of the problem with the liner sequence is step 10 - gladening the mind. You've already experienced rapture and pleasure ( I think joy/glee and satisfaction/ease are better words), then you see how those condition the mind, and calm them down. After experiencing the mind at 9, you gladen it at 10. Why do you need that? You've already experienced the pleasant fabrication and subdued it in the previous tetrad.

Also, once you think you have a satipathana tetrad covered, it just won't stay that way, the hindrances will come up, your energy level might be inappropriate, and you'll have to go back to it and stabilize it. You don't just calm the body / feelings and it nicely stays that way until you decide to stop investigating phenomena. All this stuff is going on at the same time, handling them feels a bit like juggling, but after a while you get in a groove and it kind of does itself.


Take a subject like being able to play a polyphonic instrument by ear, sure there are some more beginner topics (scales, intervals) and ones that are clearly advanced (harmony, progressions, modes), but you will have to work in some areas in parallel (training dexterity, your hearing, along with theoretical knowledge). Sometimes we might need to go back to beginner stuff and sometimes introducing an advanced concept early can help. A teacher can create a roadmap, but that needs to be tested, can usually be improved, and will never apply exactly to all students. It's a complex subject with multiple interrelated parts. Why do we think enlightenment is simpler?

I remember Thanissaro Bhikkhu (in a talk) saying that enlightenment is not a hot dog factory, where you just get the parts, apply a pre-defined, cookie-cutter process, and out comes the enlightened mind. This is something that requires developing discernment and applying our own creativity. I find this to be a very skillful view.

This being said, if you're satisfied with the results of your practice, just keep it up. I'm just sharing perspectives that were useful to me.

The suttas is the oldest we have. It's what we have as buddhism. If one want to change that because "who knows if that was what the Buddha said", fine change what ever you want. But don't forget to change the namen of the teaching/religion as well.

I have faith in the arahants after Buddha's death, I beleive their mindfulness was strong enough to verbaly pass down the suttas until they was written down, Am I sure of that, of course not. I do think that anapanasati is what the Buddha taught though. After trying so many different things before following the steps in the suttas, there was always something that did not feel right to me. The suttas did not make any sense to me at first, too simple intsructions. My mind needed complicated stuff, how many breaths, how many seconds, how to sit right, how long to sit, how long to be in step one, when to go to step two, where should I focus and so on and so on. The questions was endless and so was the "teachers" different methods and techniques and I tried many of them.

Then, after trying little here and little there I started to get the anapanasatis sutta. I learned that being fully aware in the present moment was of foremost importance, without it nothing wholesome could araise. After I was in the present moment the act of knowing the breath came natural, I knew I was breathing in the present moment, Then I wached how long it was, it went it's whole path don to the stomach expanding chest and stomach and then out the same full path. Then after some time there was no longer a long breath, it did not go so long as before, it had now become a short breath and I watch the short breath in and out. Then a while of doing that it became shorter and shorter until there was no short breath, my mindfulness was then so strong so I could watch the breath through the whole body and then when I could hold that stable without losing the present moment breathing in and out through the whole body I started to get very calm and let the body relax on the in and out breath.

This is how I experienced the first tetrad after trying so many different styles, this is the only method that to me made sense, the only method that felt logical. The oldest instructions we have, the only ones who worked for me. I will see how the second tetrad will go.

If I can reach stream enterer in this lifetime with the help of the oldest instructons we have, then I would like to teach in this way and call it the Buddha's way. Not my namne's way with my twist and turns, the Buddha's way even though it may have changed during the half of a century being just verbaly passed down.

If we can't trust the suttas, then there is no buddhism. But that does not mean we can add and take away what we feel like and still call it buddhism.

All I try to do is to stay as close to the suttas at possible. I know some translations can be unclear and then I try different ways and see which one seem more logical and natural. Trial and error.

So, with that said. Who is "right" who has the best and easiest way? The teacher who get their students from zero to stream enterer most consistently and fastest know the easiest and the fastest way. That is how it should be measured, by the fruit, I believe the anapanasati sutta is the fastest if followed as it is written. But what do I know, not much. But I do want to stick to the suttas, that is the closest thing we have from the words of the Buddha.

@B Lejon

Perhaps different things work for different people at different times in their practice & perhaps it was the Buddhas intention that there were multiple, valid interpretations of anapanasati.  He was, after all, a genius teacher, no?

Edit:

That said, it might be useful to feel really sure that one has the correct interpretation of the pali canon.  This type of confidence can be a great fuel for practice & help develop internal subconscious alignment.  

I hope my participation in the joke didn't bother you to much. Being able to see the humorous side to things, especially ourselves is a great aid to practice. My use of literature, any literature, is as corroboration to my experience. Nobody goes through the exact steps outlined in what essentially is the writers experience. Once you have settled into one of the many methods that have broad consensus, and which will produce advances in morality, concentration and wisdom, just dig in. The reason for the many methods and ways of explaining, is that people learn differently and are at different stages of personality development. Buddha understood this. The sad part is that the groups will entrench themselves in what worked for them and fight against any other view of what works. In the end, the only true measure is, if the goal, the end of suffering has been reached.  

Sure, it may be good to have some room to play and not do exactly the same with every step. But to go so far as taking out steps and putting in new is not ok while still calling it the same.

Some translation errors can't be avoided but today's jungle of methods that goes under buddhist anapanasati is too far.

All I want is to find a way closest to the steps as they are written. Then maybe small changes within the steps if that helps one to get to the next. The fruits need to be the same.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, just what I want to do and why I do it. Back to basics... 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the old suttas as well. I was trying to point out that you're still layering quite a bit of interpretation on top of them (and there really isn't any way around it for anybody). Recognizing this, I  just recommend being more open to experiment with different interpretations.

This being said, the suttas are a great source of inspiration and advice for practice.

Take care!

May I please ask any of you?

How do you transition from step 1 to step 2?

How do you know how long to be in step 1 before going to step 2?

If you'd like you could also explain the transition from 2 to 3.

I've already done it a couple of times in this thread.  Can anyone of you explain how you do your practice in these early stages please? 

This guy on Reddit recently made some comments about using the anapanasati sutta to attain stream-entry: https://www.reddit.com/user/onthatpath

Try sending him a message -- he seems really confident in the sutta like you are.

I don't practice them as steps. I don't really consider that they were intended that way. I think that people calling them steps is a concession to our minds with a preference for linear models and hierarchies.

I consider them as aspects that I have to deal with. Points 1 and 2 are not steps that you practice, because they are formulated as such:

"when he is breathing X he knows/discerns that .. X", while points 3 to 16 are formulated as "he trains himself.....". Points 1 and 2 point out what you should be your object of meditation, while the following illustrate aspects that you have to cultivate.

The sutta says that Anapanasati is done to fulfill the satipathanas. Fulfilling the satipathanas cultivates the factors of awakening which leads to... awakening.

I think the point of the practice is to use the aspects to cultivate the factors, not necessarily to go through the sequence as presented. To this extent, I think that progressing through the janas is a much better metric rather what step you're on. Being on a step just indicates that you found it adequate for you to stop there because that's where you feel comfortable.

With this paradigm, the first tetrad can be boiled down to this: the meditation objects is the breath and its qualities, see how it affects the body (point 3), then use that knowledge to incline to a mode of breathing that calms the body.

Short description of how I practice:

I practice the first tetrad as a whole: relaxing into a comfortable breath. Hindrances will come up. At that time I deal with the 3rd tetrad  - I know the state of the mind - the type of hindrance (point 9), I let go and gladden the mind by applying a pleasant perception (point 10). Then I go back to calming the body. If the body is fairly good and I feel joyful after gladening the mind for a number of times, I'll just focus on cultivating the rapture (point 5). When the mind finds the rapture agitating, it will let it calm down into pleasure (point 6). At this point, the calming of the body / mind will kind of be doing itself, so I don't really worry that much what step I'm in. (Consider the steps/aspects as musical notes. When learning, you will know which note you're playing, but when performing, you just let the mind do what it's trained to do, not consciously thinking about notes and theory)

At this point, you should be in the jhanas. If you can stabilize in the janas, you can start working on aspects 13-16 (investigating phenomena and experience). I think you can do it from any of the jhanas, which doesn't necessarily need to be the higher one. If you want to get the cessation / fruition, you'll have to progress through all of them, if you're able and so inclined.

Hope this helps!

I'm glad if that works for you doing the steps or stages or whatever we should call them. Steps is easy and understandable.

But I do not think you way of meditationg would make much sense to a new meditator. In teh beginning I think the steps and the repeating of the steps until it is clearly understood not only in the head from reading but from doing in meditation. Then one can move through them how one wants and needs.

I'm talking about teaching anapanasati to beginners and up to stram enterer and beyond. I want to have a clear and logical path from which you can go off when you are advanced if you want. 

If you would tell me your way as a total beginner, I'm not sure I would understand.

I want to teach from zero to stream enterer, maybe further if I would be able to, I don't know. A clear path from novice to advanced, fast. Not for being in a hurry, just by doing it right and in harmony through the stages. Jumping back and forth needs experience. We are talking different things here I think.

Maybe I should ask you how you would teach someone how want to do his first sit ever? But never mind. I will do what I do and find a way to teach the anapanasati and hopefully I will be able to teach in a few years or so, how ever many years it will take. I will always point to the the stages and follow them when teaching. No adding or taking away steps, straight anapanasati sutta. I want it to be the biggest meditation style, dwarf all others the has spawned from it. Back to basics


Thanks for the discussion!

That's my main point, I don't think you can teach it that way effectivelly, especially to beginners. Don't really know a lot people trying to teach it that way, and I think it's for good reason. I don't see how it would work on a theoritical level, hasn't worked for me in practice, or for the teachers and practitioners that I've discussed with regarding this.

I've heard that Larry Rosenberg says in Breath by breath that anapanasati develops naturally, sequentially, but from skimming from the book, he really doesn't cover transitions between the steps. He mostly treated them as contemplations on their own. Try it out, and see if it has something for you.

If you consider yourself a beginner but have faith in your interpretation, keep doing it, you might progress. If after a while you feel that your practice is stagnating, I'd be more open to the interpretation ofa teacher that is willing to work with you.

Take care!

What do you think is easier for a beginner?

Take one through the steps, step by step, have him mastering each step before going to the next?


Or, as you do, jump back and forth? Having the student thinking about many steps and trying to figure out many steps at the same time.



What do you think is more logical and easy to learn for a beginner? I think one problem with how many teachers are teaching today is that they pour so much information on you, info that is non relevant where the student is at the moment. I want to use the anapanasati, step by step up to stream enterer and only add essential information about the dharma to reach stream enterer. After that, I don't know yet. But before waking up the mind, why bother pouring endles info in to it? It's seem so counterproductive and confusing. Instead I will do a minimalistic version of it. Then later on one can dance like a ballerina around the stages if one so desire.

You can direct me to how many teachers you want. But what I'm interested in is how many percent of their students go from beginner to stream enterer? I'm only intrested in the fruits of their practice, not only how they teach.

What I want to do is to make the steps so easy to follow that almost everyone who wants will be able to understand and do it. Will I be able to, who knows but one thing is sure, I think it's too much misleading information about buddhist meditation, too much "my style". I want to find a way as close to the steps as possible, maybe even by following them step by step all the time. If you don't think its should be like that, ok, you can think what you want but I do not see anywhere in the anapanasati sutta where it says it shouldn't be in order.

I want to make it easy to learn, as easy as possible without changing, rmoving or adding steps. As close as possible, if you think that is the wrong way, so be it, you have the right to think what you want.

I want to do it with the anapanasati sutta and I want to do it from step to step, I want to be able to say that I used the suttas to learn to meditate and then teach according to the anapanasati sutta, as close as possible. That is what I want to do, that is what I'm going to try to do.