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Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?

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Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/15/20 3:18 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Siavash 10/15/20 4:00 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Ben V. 10/15/20 6:09 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Sam Roff 10/15/20 6:27 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 12:58 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/15/20 8:23 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Siavash 10/15/20 7:51 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/15/20 7:59 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Balint Pinczes 10/16/20 6:25 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/16/20 6:30 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 2:28 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/16/20 2:57 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 11:51 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Steph 10/15/20 8:38 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? A. Dietrich Ringle 11/11/20 4:00 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 11/11/20 4:21 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? A. Dietrich Ringle 11/11/20 10:47 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? A. Dietrich Ringle 11/11/20 10:49 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 11/12/20 12:36 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 11/12/20 7:04 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Angel Roberto Puente 10/15/20 8:44 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Jarrett 10/15/20 9:12 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 1:48 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/16/20 2:00 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Tim Farrington 10/16/20 2:18 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 2:15 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Gus Castellanos 10/16/20 4:42 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/16/20 11:57 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/16/20 12:32 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/16/20 1:26 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 2:52 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/16/20 3:03 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/16/20 3:10 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/16/20 3:24 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 4:31 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/16/20 4:52 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Steph 10/16/20 5:45 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Siavash 10/16/20 7:14 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Steph 10/16/20 10:29 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/17/20 9:30 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 1:12 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/17/20 1:27 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 2:41 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/17/20 2:47 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 4:23 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 4:33 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/19/20 9:19 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Tim Farrington 10/21/20 2:21 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/30/20 1:28 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/21/20 8:00 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 3:01 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/17/20 9:55 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/17/20 10:05 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/17/20 11:06 AM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 12:40 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? J W 10/17/20 1:03 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/17/20 2:06 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? Chris Marti 10/17/20 1:35 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 3:28 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 2:45 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 2:25 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 12:39 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? terry 10/16/20 12:44 PM
RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim? gem 10/16/20 12:58 PM
Please read this article and then we can discuss it:

https://pando.com/2020/10/13/silicon-valleys-corporate-mindfulness-hypocrisy/

Mindfulness has now taken center stage in the self-help industry. It’s sold to us as a band-aid and DIY quick-fix. If you are stressed out at work (or have Zoom fatigue), it’s your problem and your own fault.

Get over it. 

This is essentially what Starbucks management told its stressed-out baristas by offering them free access to the Headspace meditation app earlier this year while ignoring their demands for higher wages and complaints of understaffed locations. According to the mindfulness cheerleaders, stress is all inside your head because you are suffering from a “thinking disease” – caused by your inability to mindfully pay attention to the present moment.  In other words, it’s not the capitalist economy, it’s not the mass marketing of digital distraction by tech companies, it’s your brain that is the central problem. You just need to ‘hack’ and ‘retrain’ your brain like a muscle at the gym. Practice mindfulness, and you will become a successful mental athlete. You are completely responsible for your own happiness and wellbeing, despite the fact that your unemployment check ran out.  



RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 4:00 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Please read this article and then we can discuss it:

https://pando.com/2020/10/13/silicon-valleys-corporate-mindfulness-hypocrisy/


This page didn't show any Ad to me!


(Monsters using humanity to recruit humans and turn them into automated slaves. Same old story with a new scale)

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 6:09 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Read it. Although I was somewhat put-off by the use of terms like ''toxic masculinity'' (Masculinity is not toxic. I know it's meant to refer to misbehaviors of men, but then we should just call it that, misbehaviors of men, instead of using a phrase that essentially says that masculinity is toxic), I do agree with the underlying thesis of the article. I once co-led mindfulness stress reduction courses as a social worker, and eventually got invited to lead a course like that in a big private company. As I did, I was secretly feeling sad in thinking that all these suffering employees (some were really suffering) were given this course as a tactic to try to keep them from going on sick leaves, and what seemed to be really needed was to either do just that, leave, of change the structure of the system. 

It's like if a woman in an abusive relationship sees a therapist, and the therapist teaches her mindfulness skills to help her deal with her situation, while not helping her to leave the situation or put an end to the abuse. 

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 6:27 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I dunno, I think this article was designed to be jarring.

Obviously slapping a band-aid of 'Mindfulness will fix all your problems, stop complaining' - is an issue.  Particularly in corporate situations.  And it very well may be the case companies are abusing the trend and employees aren't being heard.  I'm reminded of Joseph Goldstein telling a story on an Insight hour podcast of his meditation teacher haggling for food at a marketplace.  When Joseph asked why he was acting in such a disagreeable/assertive way which seemed contrary to what the practice goals achieved, he said:

"The goal is to live simply, not to be a Simpleton" (paraphrasing from memory)

So when he says in the article:
This is  the crux of the problem: Corporate mindfulness is a poor substitute for
organizational change. By reframing structural and systemic problems as
an individual-level pathology, by putting the onus of responsibility
all on individuals – telling them, “Just do this mindfulness practice”

I agree. That being said, it depends.  It is also true though that people cannot see clearly through their own greed and ambition, and employees may be whining when it is in fact within their grasp.

Sometimes we need to listen to our emotions and take action.  This is why I think the article is designed to be jarring.  He's taking one polarity of the situation to spark debate.

It always comes back to the middle way.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 8:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks for sharing this. It's a little different than what I expected I guess, normally I am used to hearing criticisms about 'McMindfulness' from within a more traditional Buddhist setting. The author seems to not have much background in Buddhism though, from what I can tell.  In the first paragraph, which seems to be the central argument, it seems like the author is taking offense to the general concept of mindfulness rather than the corporatism of said mindfulness:

"According to the mindfulness cheerleaders, stress is all inside your head because you are suffering from a “thinking disease” – caused by your inability to mindfully pay attention to the present moment."

I am curious about the author's background and understanding of meditation practices because I would not agree that the following sentence is correct:

"The diagnosis is flawed. It ignores the concept that stress is not merely an individual pathology and that it’s linked to social, economic, and political forces that are larger than the individual."

Most likely these McMindfulness people are the author's point of first or only exposure to Dharma concepts, and they are not doing a good job of explaining things, because they themselves are confused, and/or flawed in some way, or just greedy or corrupt, which causes the author to become confused and averse in general.  From then on his ideas about Buddhism are just tainted because he had such a bad first impression even if they have nothing to do with McMindfulness, he doesn't want to invest the energy in telling the difference.

I think a lot about if there is anything we can do to help with this problem, I definitely feel like "I" (we?) *want* to be doing something, but I don't know what exactly, or even if there is anything to do.

Also - I have heard "blame the victim" criticisms about different Buddhist schools before.  Also "gaslighting" is a big one.  I can understand how people can think of it that way if some of the very subtle points about Buddhism are not understood.

EDIT: I do regret making assumptions about the author's background, though I am leaving this up as this was my first impression of the article.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 7:51 PM as a reply to J W.
J W:
Thanks for sharing this. It's a little different than what I expected I guess, normally I am used to hearing criticisms about 'McMindfulness' from within a more traditional Buddhist setting. The author seems to not have much background in Buddhism though, from what I can tell.  In the first paragraph, which seems to be the central argument, it seems like the author is taking offense to the general concept of mindfulness rather than the corporatism of said mindfulness:

"According to the mindfulness cheerleaders, stress is all inside your head because you are suffering from a “thinking disease” – caused by your inability to mindfully pay attention to the present moment."

I am curious about the author's background and understanding of meditation practices because I would not agree that the following sentence is correct:

"The diagnosis is flawed. It ignores the concept that stress is not merely an individual pathology and that it’s linked to social, economic, and political forces that are larger than the individual."

Most likely these McMindfulness people are the author's point of first or only exposure to Dharma concepts, and they are not doing a good job of explaining things, because they themselves are confused, and/or flawed in some way, or just greedy or corrupt, which causes the author to become confused and averse in general.  From then on his ideas about Buddhism are just tainted because he had such a bad first impression even if they have nothing to do with McMindfulness, he doesn't want to invest the energy in telling the difference.

I think a lot about if there is anything we can do to help with this problem, I definitely feel like "I" (we?) *want* to be doing something, but I don't know what exactly, or even if there is anything to do.


If you click the link on his name at the bottom of the page:

Dr. Purser is an ordained  Zen Dharma teacher in the Korean Zen Taego Order.  He received ordination in April 2013 from the Venerable Jongmae Park, Partriarch of the Taego Korean Zen order for the overseas sangha. His Dharma name is Hae Seong, which means “The Nature of Wisdom.”

Dr. Purser’s began studying Buddhism in 1981 as a student at the Tibetan Nyingma Institute in Berkeley, and formal Zen training at the Cleveland Zen Center in 1985, receiving precepts from Koshin Ogui Sensei. In the Tibetan Nyingma and Kagyu traditions, Dr. Purser has studied, practiced and taken retreats under the direction of Tarthang Tulku Rinpoche of Nyingma Centers, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche at Rangjung Yeshe Gomde, Drikung Kyabgon Chetsang Rinpoche, and Wangdor Rinpoche from Rewalsar, India. His former Zen teachers include Albert Low, Abbot of the Montreal Zen Center, and Sensei Al Fusho Rapaport of Open Mind Zen. He also completed a two year teacher training program for Time, Space and Knowledge (TSK) vision, and a nine month intensive training program, Nondual Psychotherapy, with Dr. Peter Fenner from Australia. Dr. Purser has traveled extensively in Northern India, making pilgrimages to the Holy sites of the Buddha.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 7:59 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Oh wow, well forget everything I said and throw an egg on my face emoticon

I guess I agree with the statement that "stress is all in your head" but I don't agree that that precludes all the societal factors from also playing a role, which also exist "in our heads".

Really though, knowing his background does change the way I read that article.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 8:38 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Well the main reason corporations suggest wellness initiatives of any kind in the first place is to maximize employee productivity to benefit the company's profits. The less sick days an employee takes, and/or the less time they spend being distracted because they're overly stressed, the more time they spend being productive & making money for the company. They're probably not going to invest in iniatiaves that would be truly beneficial to the average worker. Headspace is probably very cheap for them compared to sending people on retreat or hiring meditation teachers to run meditation classes at lunch. The amount of leg work to find a solution that goes much deeper than superficial gestures - and implement it for every employee would probably cost them more than the time lost from a stressed workforce. So they suggest something superficial like this app, that may or may not help to some degree to get to their perceived middle ground where to some people it makes it seem like you care (boosted morale = boosted productivity), and if used might reduce stress a smidge (less stress = more productivity).

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 8:44 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Would it be karma if instead of relaxing, the employees entered into a Dark Night and resigned en masse?  

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/15/20 9:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I think this recent spike in popularity is exposing more people to something that has the potential to help in many facets of life -- relationships with others and onself, living in accordance to one's values, happiness, fulfillment, etc etc.

IMHO this article is looking at it pretty myopically. Mindfulness practice has the power to drastically change people's lives and get them deeper into Buddhism. 

Would "The Guatama The Buddha" care? Of course it's reductive and I have my own gripes with the fashionability and decontextualization from Shila, but seriously, come on, people are getting into meditation! That's pretty amazing and who knows the impact that may have.

Is this not the revolution?

And quite possibly narcissistic twitter billionaire turned a ton of people onto goenka vipassana (for better or for worse) with that post. 

Dharma spreads in strange ways...

I remember hearing a podcast with Robert Thurman and of course he's no expert on this and neither am I, but he talked about how the green energy revolution is probably gonna gain considerable traction only when oil companies realize how much more money they can make on green energy.

It's the same principle. 

Wow, I'm particularly optimistic tonight ;)

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:18 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Please read this article and then we can discuss it:

https://pando.com/2020/10/13/silicon-valleys-corporate-mindfulness-hypocrisy/

Ah, well, this thread leads right off the cliff into the abyss of history and politics. Thanks, Chris. Pandora’s box is open for business, and
there’s an app for the stress.

 The first thing to note is that this is no quick slick article with a quick slick critique of a quick slick fad. The author, Ron Purser, has
written a book on this theme, https://www.amazon.com/McMindfulness-Ronald-Purser/dp/191224831X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Ron+Purser&qid=1602827844&s=books&sr=1-1 Both the book and the article, while clearly written for a popular
audience, are serious and well-considered critiques of the way “mindfulness” is being marketed and used in our contemporary society, making a case that it has been co-opted by corporate culture and the “neoliberal” political economic status quo, that it has become, in pretty much precisely the sense of Marx’s point on religion, an opiate of the masses, useful to the rich as they get richer because it keeps the poor as well-adjusted to systemic injustice as possible, and looking within for answers instead of questioning the rigged game of our society’s state of the art. 

Purser is not alone in this angle of critique, by the way. For another thinker who “traces the evolution of the science of happiness from the
French Revolution to the present, and argues it essentially serves the interests of the powerful elite,” check out William Davies’s 2016 book The Happiness Industry: How the Government and Big Business Sold Us Well-Being. 

 The other up-front notable point on this conversation is that Purser is “an ordained Zen Dharma teacher in the Korean Zen Taego
Order. He received ordination in April 2013 from the Venerable Jongmae Park, Patriarch of the Taego Korean Zen order for the overseas sangha. His Dharma name is Hae Seong, which means ‘The Nature of Wisdom.’” The guy has been practicing meditation since 1981 (it turns out he started at the Nyingma Institute in Berkeley, the Tarthang Tulku place; I was a few miles down the road at that same time, in a lower-rent neighborhood in Oakland, at the Siddha Yoga Dham). So he’s not “anti-meditation,” by a long shot. What he is, is
politically aware, and willing to go there on corporate capitalism and the cold-blooded cynicism of a profit-driven system co-opting “mindfulness” in the service of its heartless and alienated status quo: stress reduction in the exploited. 

I’m not sure we can go very far with this here on DhO. Just thinking about the politics of meditation induces dark night symptoms. Just as
a thought-experiment, consider this: in your next sit, stipulate that you are “enlightened enough” for one moment in time, and after this meditation you are going to actually set yourself to do something “for the benefit of all beings”, beyond just teaching them to meditate some more, see a good therapist, and get their meds right. Consider the points Purser makes in this article, or his book, if you have the stomach to read the book. Consider the myth of the Buddha, leaving his privileged palace for the first time to walk down the common road there: he
came upon a sick man, a guy without health insurance, as it turns out, whose sickness was not only horrifying to behold, it had bankrupted his family, who are now hungry and homeless. Walking on, the Buddha-to-be came upon an aging man, whose pension fund went bust, sold off in pieces during the rah-rah Reagan 80s, and who is eke-ing it out alone and isolated on his shrinking-against-inflation and inadequate-to-begin-with social security check, also short of health insurance, and living on cat food and television. And walking on, Prince Gautama found a dead man, a black man, in this case, killed by the police for making someone uncomfortable by walking-while-black. And walking on further, in despair now at the insoluble knot of samsara, the pre-Buddha Buddha comes upon a guy in orange teaching mindfulness, promising a way out of this hopeless shit. 

Now, for the benefit of all beings, do your sit. Welcome to the dark night. You’re enlightened enough, remember, just this once: ease on through the unknowing into equanimity. See if your equanimity survives thinking about this stuff at all, and for how long, and how deeply. And if your equanimity does hold up, somewhere deep and black and silent, see if you have a clue about what to do for the benefit of all beings when your timer dings and it’s time to get up off the mat and do it with your next breath.

 love, tim

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 4:42 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks for this article Chris. I have been following Purser and the pros and cons debate fo the 'modern mindfulness movement' for a few years. For me, nothing new in the piece.  I found this collection of articles on Open Democracy" offering other perspectives informative: "The road beyond McMindfulnessille What can we learn from 22 articles on mindfulness and social change?"

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 6:25 AM as a reply to Siavash.
Siavash:
If you click the link on his name at the bottom of the page:


Dr. Purser is an ordained  Zen Dharma teacher in the Korean Zen Taego Order. He received ordination...
Furthermore, there is another link at the bottom of the article referred to in the O.P., linking to The Mindful Cranks podcast, co-founded by Dr. Purser. Over and beyond the podcast itself, there is lots of related material that might be worth exploring, such as https://www.mindfulcranks.com/crank-publications (links to articles by Ron Purser, David Forbes and others) and https://www.mindfulcranks.com/cranks-library (though the latter seems to be limited to book covers / links to book retailer sites, but the authors are featured in the podcast episodes themselves - one might chose an interesting book/author based on the cover and then listen to the relevant episode).

(I have not previously been aware of the existence of the site / podcast, but I thought some of the contributors to / readers of this thread might some of the material interesting.)

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 6:30 AM as a reply to Balint Pinczes.
I think the word "mindfiulness" is a Rorschach test.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 11:57 AM as a reply to Gus Castellanos.
Found this interview with Dr. Purser, which I think helps explain some of his intentions of the article:


Q: Is part of your goal to put the Buddhism back in mindfulness as it is practiced widely?

"No, I think that would be impossible and foolish because we are living in a secular age. I think there are ways of reclaiming mindfulness. I think there are ways of rescuing it from its capitalist stranglehold right now and that's going to take some work. And I think there are people out there doing that kind of work and that's encouraging.

I think that a lot of the leaders of the mindfulness movement — I've met many of them — they're very sincere and they really believe in what they're doing. And many of them were anti-war activists, many were very countercultural. I think they retained the hope and belief that by bringing these practices into various institutions that it would lead to social change. 

The problem is that the way they brought these into institutions was very non-confrontational, very non-oppositional, in order to to get a foot in the door. And so they're working with these other elites in these institutions and over time they became co-opted in my opinion. So by not offering a challenge to these corporate interests, the radical revolutionary potential of these practices have been neutered. They've been domesticated and they've been co-opted to serve the existing goals of these institutions.

I think mindfulness could be revolutionized in a way that does not denigrate the therapeutic benefits of self-care, but it becomes interdependent with these causes and conditions of suffering which go beyond just individuals. So it's a way of trying to reclaim mindfulness and take it back from becoming hostage of capitalist instrumentalist applications."




So what I'm hearing from him is that he feels that by being more challenging and critical towards the negative aspects of corporate mindfulness, we have a better chance of ‘reclaiming it’ and moving it towards something that more closely resembles actual Buddhism.

I guess where I am a little confused is, what I *perceive* is that there already is, and really from the start, has been, a ton of opposition and criticism of the McMindfulness movement (and towards corporate culture in general), I feel like I’ve seen so many articles from just about every major news source going back for the past 10+ years, it just seems like there’s nothing new this article brings. Not that I disagree with the article, I do agree with it. But it’s kind of like people posting the same anti-Trump articles on Facebook over and over, like, I agree, but I don’t need to see the same article over and over again. (Not to bring politics into this). And I feel like even before the mindfulness movement, historically there has been major opposition of just about every countercultural spiritual movement (hippies, new age, etc). The word counterculture itself implies that it exists in opposition to mainstream thought.

Despite all this opposition, or perhaps, because of it, “capital M” Mindfulness has become more popular than ever. In that way, the criticism and the opposition is actually a part of the causes and conditions of its growth and success. What I always wonder is, what can be done if we take a more positive approach, and look at possibilities for providing/contributing towards/understanding “good mindfulness” accessible alternatives for people who have no exposure to meditation

My theory is that probably one of the main reasons that people get sucked into this “bad mindfulness” is that they have no better option that is immediately available to them.

To be clear, I do think this criticism has its place and is necessary, and I look forward to reading more of Dr. Purser’s work, I guess I am just of the opinion that it’s not the *only* ingredient needed for change.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 12:32 PM as a reply to J W.
My humble opinion is that this is about what's happening inside companies that are happy to leverage this wonderful tool called meditation (watered down as "mindfulness") and use it in ways that may be well-meaning or may not. But they're not a very good vector for it, and their motives are suspect (Starbucks example), and they don't really know what the thing truly is. It becomes another wellness program, helping to save money on insurance over the long haul, maybe making people "happier" by helping them cope with stress. And yes, stress is always in some way "in our heads" but it's source in today's workplace isn't.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 12:39 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Please read this article and then we can discuss it:

https://pando.com/2020/10/13/silicon-valleys-corporate-mindfulness-hypocrisy/

Mindfulness has now taken center stage in the self-help industry. It’s sold to us as a band-aid and DIY quick-fix. If you are stressed out at work (or have Zoom fatigue), it’s your problem and your own fault.

Get over it. 

This is essentially what Starbucks management told its stressed-out baristas by offering them free access to the Headspace meditation app earlier this year while ignoring their demands for higher wages and complaints of understaffed locations. According to the mindfulness cheerleaders, stress is all inside your head because you are suffering from a “thinking disease” – caused by your inability to mindfully pay attention to the present moment.  In other words, it’s not the capitalist economy, it’s not the mass marketing of digital distraction by tech companies, it’s your brain that is the central problem. You just need to ‘hack’ and ‘retrain’ your brain like a muscle at the gym. Practice mindfulness, and you will become a successful mental athlete. You are completely responsible for your own happiness and wellbeing, despite the fact that your unemployment check ran out.  




    Any partnership of spirituality with corporations is a sell out. Like pay walls. Or advertising.

   You can't serve god and mammon.

   Ramakrishna says that if you add a drop of mud to a glass of dirty water, it makes no difference. If you add it to a glass of clean water, it makes it diirty.

terry

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 12:44 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Chris Marti:
Please read this article and then we can discuss it:

https://pando.com/2020/10/13/silicon-valleys-corporate-mindfulness-hypocrisy/

Mindfulness has now taken center stage in the self-help industry. It’s sold to us as a band-aid and DIY quick-fix. If you are stressed out at work (or have Zoom fatigue), it’s your problem and your own fault.

Get over it. 

This is essentially what Starbucks management told its stressed-out baristas by offering them free access to the Headspace meditation app earlier this year while ignoring their demands for higher wages and complaints of understaffed locations. According to the mindfulness cheerleaders, stress is all inside your head because you are suffering from a “thinking disease” – caused by your inability to mindfully pay attention to the present moment.  In other words, it’s not the capitalist economy, it’s not the mass marketing of digital distraction by tech companies, it’s your brain that is the central problem. You just need to ‘hack’ and ‘retrain’ your brain like a muscle at the gym. Practice mindfulness, and you will become a successful mental athlete. You are completely responsible for your own happiness and wellbeing, despite the fact that your unemployment check ran out.  




    Any partnership of spirituality with corporations is a sell out. Like pay walls. Or advertising.

   You can't serve god and mammon.

   Ramakrishna says that if you add a drop of mud to a glass of dirty water, it makes no difference. If you add it to a glass of clean water, it makes it diirty.

terry


   I think it would be appropriate if powerful unions addressed stress issues and paid experienced meditators to talk to and train workers in stress relief, as a part of a comprehensive effort to improve their lives.

   For profit corporations have no role in ethics or spirituality. They can only be required to conform to ethical standards.

t

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 12:58 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Putting aside obvious boundary issues, whose subjectivity is more important?

One can take the statement "stress is all inside your head" and generously apply it to other scenario, saying it's ok to take all the money from a counter since it will only create a problem inside the heads of business owners. emoticon They can then use the app to get rid of the psychological tension, in turn, leading by example.

Gassho,
gem

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 12:58 PM as a reply to Sam Roff.
Sam Roff:
I dunno, I think this article was designed to be jarring.

Obviously slapping a band-aid of 'Mindfulness will fix all your problems, stop complaining' - is an issue.  Particularly in corporate situations.  And it very well may be the case companies are abusing the trend and employees aren't being heard.  I'm reminded of Joseph Goldstein telling a story on an Insight hour podcast of his meditation teacher haggling for food at a marketplace.  When Joseph asked why he was acting in such a disagreeable/assertive way which seemed contrary to what the practice goals achieved, he said:

"The goal is to live simply, not to be a Simpleton" (paraphrasing from memory)

So when he says in the article:
This is  the crux of the problem: Corporate mindfulness is a poor substitute for
organizational change. By reframing structural and systemic problems as
an individual-level pathology, by putting the onus of responsibility
all on individuals – telling them, “Just do this mindfulness practice”

I agree. That being said, it depends.  It is also true though that people cannot see clearly through their own greed and ambition, and employees may be whining when it is in fact within their grasp.

Sometimes we need to listen to our emotions and take action.  This is why I think the article is designed to be jarring.  He's taking one polarity of the situation to spark debate.

It always comes back to the middle way.

aloha sam,

   "It always comes back to the middle way."

   (handspring)  (handspring)  (handspring)

love, terry

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 1:26 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
My humble opinion is that this is about what's happening inside companies that are happy to leverage this wonderful tool called meditation (watered down as "mindfulness") and use it in ways that may be well-meaning or may not. But they're not a very good vector for it, and their motives are suspect (Starbucks example), and they don't really know what the thing truly is. It becomes another wellness program, helping to save money on insurance over the long haul, maybe making people "happier" by helping them cope with stress. And yes, stress is always in some way "in our heads" but it's source in today's workplace isn't.


Right, I guess my question is "and what now?", in other words, what do we do with this information?

I do believe there is value in simply understanding, of course, especially in understanding 'problems' as 'problems' (at least as they exist in a dualistic sense), and as those problems are constantly changing, there needs to be some amount of continuous effort put into this understanding.  But what action, or what intention, should be taken as a result of that understanding?  Or would you say all we can really do is to understand the problem?  I think I could understand that viewpoint.

FYI I am not claiming to fully understand the issue, I suppose I feel that the general thought here on DhO is already generally pretty wary of corporate mindfulness, though maybe that's not an accurate assumption.  I would place myself as someone who was already pretty wary of corporate mindfulness though, even before I found DhO. 

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 1:48 PM as a reply to Jarrett.
Jarrett:
I think this recent spike in popularity is exposing more people to something that has the potential to help in many facets of life -- relationships with others and onself, living in accordance to one's values, happiness, fulfillment, etc etc.

IMHO this article is looking at it pretty myopically. Mindfulness practice has the power to drastically change people's lives and get them deeper into Buddhism. 

Would "The Guatama The Buddha" care? Of course it's reductive and I have my own gripes with the fashionability and decontextualization from Shila, but seriously, come on, people are getting into meditation! That's pretty amazing and who knows the impact that may have.

Is this not the revolution?

And quite possibly narcissistic twitter billionaire turned a ton of people onto goenka vipassana (for better or for worse) with that post. 

Dharma spreads in strange ways...

I remember hearing a podcast with Robert Thurman and of course he's no expert on this and neither am I, but he talked about how the green energy revolution is probably gonna gain considerable traction only when oil companies realize how much more money they can make on green energy.

It's the same principle. 

Wow, I'm particularly optimistic tonight ;)


   The traction green energy has is already due to the oil companies making money on it. It takes more fossil fuel energy to produce "green" energy than the so-called "green energy" produces. As a smoke screen, "green energy" plants are underwritten that want to burn every tree, bush or stick of wood left above ground, as an alternative to fossil fuels. (Hey, they're burning anyway, why waste them?) Next they will again promote the blackest of black energy, nukes, polluiting for 10000 years, as "clean" because they don't emit greenhouse gases. Lots of oil can be burned building these monster facilities, then scrapping them a few years later.

   As long as the fact can be obscured that conservation is the first and well nigh only solution to energy "needs" and healthy living, we will see only hypocrisy and failure. Sustainability is a very distant goal and people who speak of achieving it by 2035 or 2050 are not realistic, to say the least.

   We need to create a culture, a mindset, a weltanschauung of reducing energy use as a social obligation. I like to see the airlines have to scrap 95% of their planes, close airports and fire workers. I hope they become bankrupt and the damage to the fleet is irreparable. It's a start.

   We need to use the pandemic to create a new normal that's better than the old one, socially, racially, economically, and biosphere-friendlier. More mindful. More respectful of each other and the planet. A culture of common sense and respect for unbiased truth.

   Check this out, and think about how gross it was before it was edited. https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1316811506613325824

   Our planet is common ground. I like to say, we all live here together on an island. Whatever our differences, we need to move forward. Face the music. Learn to dance.


terry



bob is credited with this song but the words came from a speech by ras tafari (haile selassie)


War
(Bob Marley)

Until the philosophy
Which hold one race superior and another
Inferior
Is finally
And permanently
Discredited
And abandoned
Everywhere is war
Me say war
That until there no longer
First class and second class citizens of any nation
Until the color of a man's skin
Is of no more significance than the color of his eyes
Me say war
That until the basic human rights
Are equally guaranteed to all
Without regard to race
Dis a war
That until that day
The dream of lasting peace,
World citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion to be pursued,
But never attained
Now everywhere is war
War
And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes
That hold our brothers in Angola
In Mozambique
South Africa
Sub-human bondage
Have been toppled
Utterly destroyed
Well, everywhere is war
Me say war
War in the east
War in the west
War up north
War down south
War war
Rumors of war
And until that day,
The African continent
Will not know peace,
We Africans will fight we find it necessary
And we know we shall win
As we are confident
In the victory
Of good over evil
Good over evil, yeah
Good over evil
Good over evil, yeah
Good over evil

Songwriters: Bob Marley

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:00 PM as a reply to terry.
[quote=terry

]Until the philosophy
Which hold one race superior and another
Inferior
Is finally
And permanently
Discredited
And abandoned
Everywhere is war

Hell yeah terry!

 emoticon

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:15 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Please read this article and then we can discuss it:

https://pando.com/2020/10/13/silicon-valleys-corporate-mindfulness-hypocrisy/

Ah, well, this thread leads right off the cliff into the abyss of history and politics. Thanks, Chris. Pandora’s box is open for business, and
there’s an app for the stress.

 The first thing to note is that this is no quick slick article with a quick slick critique of a quick slick fad. The author, Ron Purser, has
written a book on this theme, https://www.amazon.com/McMindfulness-Ronald-Purser/dp/191224831X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Ron+Purser&qid=1602827844&s=books&sr=1-1 Both the book and the article, while clearly written for a popular
audience, are serious and well-considered critiques of the way “mindfulness” is being marketed and used in our contemporary society, making a case that it has been co-opted by corporate culture and the “neoliberal” political economic status quo, that it has become, in pretty much precisely the sense of Marx’s point on religion, an opiate of the masses, useful to the rich as they get richer because it keeps the poor as well-adjusted to systemic injustice as possible, and looking within for answers instead of questioning the rigged game of our society’s state of the art. 

Purser is not alone in this angle of critique, by the way. For another thinker who “traces the evolution of the science of happiness from the
French Revolution to the present, and argues it essentially serves the interests of the powerful elite,” check out William Davies’s 2016 book The Happiness Industry: How the Government and Big Business Sold Us Well-Being. 

 The other up-front notable point on this conversation is that Purser is “an ordained Zen Dharma teacher in the Korean Zen Taego
Order. He received ordination in April 2013 from the Venerable Jongmae Park, Patriarch of the Taego Korean Zen order for the overseas sangha. His Dharma name is Hae Seong, which means ‘The Nature of Wisdom.’” The guy has been practicing meditation since 1981 (it turns out he started at the Nyingma Institute in Berkeley, the Tarthang Tulku place; I was a few miles down the road at that same time, in a lower-rent neighborhood in Oakland, at the Siddha Yoga Dham). So he’s not “anti-meditation,” by a long shot. What he is, is
politically aware, and willing to go there on corporate capitalism and the cold-blooded cynicism of a profit-driven system co-opting “mindfulness” in the service of its heartless and alienated status quo: stress reduction in the exploited. 

I’m not sure we can go very far with this here on DhO. Just thinking about the politics of meditation induces dark night symptoms. Just as
a thought-experiment, consider this: in your next sit, stipulate that you are “enlightened enough” for one moment in time, and after this meditation you are going to actually set yourself to do something “for the benefit of all beings”, beyond just teaching them to meditate some more, see a good therapist, and get their meds right. Consider the points Purser makes in this article, or his book, if you have the stomach to read the book. Consider the myth of the Buddha, leaving his privileged palace for the first time to walk down the common road there: he
came upon a sick man, a guy without health insurance, as it turns out, whose sickness was not only horrifying to behold, it had bankrupted his family, who are now hungry and homeless. Walking on, the Buddha-to-be came upon an aging man, whose pension fund went bust, sold off in pieces during the rah-rah Reagan 80s, and who is eke-ing it out alone and isolated on his shrinking-against-inflation and inadequate-to-begin-with social security check, also short of health insurance, and living on cat food and television. And walking on, Prince Gautama found a dead man, a black man, in this case, killed by the police for making someone uncomfortable by walking-while-black. And walking on further, in despair now at the insoluble knot of samsara, the pre-Buddha Buddha comes upon a guy in orange teaching mindfulness, promising a way out of this hopeless shit. 

Now, for the benefit of all beings, do your sit. Welcome to the dark night. You’re enlightened enough, remember, just this once: ease on through the unknowing into equanimity. See if your equanimity survives thinking about this stuff at all, and for how long, and how deeply. And if your equanimity does hold up, somewhere deep and black and silent, see if you have a clue about what to do for the benefit of all beings when your timer dings and it’s time to get up off the mat and do it with your next breath.

 love, tim
   "(T)he pre-Buddha Buddha comes upon a guy in orange teaching mindfulness, promising a way out of this hopeless shit." The post buddha buddha then becomes that guy.

   Interesting you should mention pandora's box and hopelessness in the same post. When hesiod told the myth of pandora, she was the original woman, given to man as a curse (not an helpmeet as in the bible, not flesh of his flesh). Pandora came along with a box, in which were all manner of nasty things, and by the time they got the box shut, the only thing left in it was hope.("Pandora" means "all gifts." Mysogynist hesiod was the source of a lot of greeks myths. Womn were generally seen by classical greek culture as a regrettable necessity for the production of male heirs.

terry

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:25 PM as a reply to Gus Castellanos.
Gus Castellanos:
Thanks for this article Chris. I have been following Purser and the pros and cons debate fo the 'modern mindfulness movement' for a few years. For me, nothing new in the piece.  I found this collection of articles on Open Democracy" offering other perspectives informative: "The road beyond McMindfulnessille What can we learn from 22 articles on mindfulness and social change?"


might as well just be mindful and socially change

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:28 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I think the word "mindfiulness" is a Rorschach test.

and what do you see?

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:45 PM as a reply to J W.
J W:
Found this interview with Dr. Purser, which I think helps explain some of his intentions of the article:


Q: Is part of your goal to put the Buddhism back in mindfulness as it is practiced widely?

"No, I think that would be impossible and foolish because we are living in a secular age. I think there are ways of reclaiming mindfulness. I think there are ways of rescuing it from its capitalist stranglehold right now and that's going to take some work. And I think there are people out there doing that kind of work and that's encouraging.

I think that a lot of the leaders of the mindfulness movement — I've met many of them — they're very sincere and they really believe in what they're doing. And many of them were anti-war activists, many were very countercultural. I think they retained the hope and belief that by bringing these practices into various institutions that it would lead to social change. 

The problem is that the way they brought these into institutions was very non-confrontational, very non-oppositional, in order to to get a foot in the door. And so they're working with these other elites in these institutions and over time they became co-opted in my opinion. So by not offering a challenge to these corporate interests, the radical revolutionary potential of these practices have been neutered. They've been domesticated and they've been co-opted to serve the existing goals of these institutions.

I think mindfulness could be revolutionized in a way that does not denigrate the therapeutic benefits of self-care, but it becomes interdependent with these causes and conditions of suffering which go beyond just individuals. So it's a way of trying to reclaim mindfulness and take it back from becoming hostage of capitalist instrumentalist applications."




So what I'm hearing from him is that he feels that by being more challenging and critical towards the negative aspects of corporate mindfulness, we have a better chance of ‘reclaiming it’ and moving it towards something that more closely resembles actual Buddhism.

I guess where I am a little confused is, what I *perceive* is that there already is, and really from the start, has been, a ton of opposition and criticism of the McMindfulness movement (and towards corporate culture in general), I feel like I’ve seen so many articles from just about every major news source going back for the past 10+ years, it just seems like there’s nothing new this article brings. Not that I disagree with the article, I do agree with it. But it’s kind of like people posting the same anti-Trump articles on Facebook over and over, like, I agree, but I don’t need to see the same article over and over again. (Not to bring politics into this). And I feel like even before the mindfulness movement, historically there has been major opposition of just about every countercultural spiritual movement (hippies, new age, etc). The word counterculture itself implies that it exists in opposition to mainstream thought.

Despite all this opposition, or perhaps, because of it, “capital M” Mindfulness has become more popular than ever. In that way, the criticism and the opposition is actually a part of the causes and conditions of its growth and success. What I always wonder is, what can be done if we take a more positive approach, and look at possibilities for providing/contributing towards/understanding “good mindfulness” accessible alternatives for people who have no exposure to meditation

My theory is that probably one of the main reasons that people get sucked into this “bad mindfulness” is that they have no better option that is immediately available to them.

To be clear, I do think this criticism has its place and is necessary, and I look forward to reading more of Dr. Purser’s work, I guess I am just of the opinion that it’s not the *only* ingredient needed for change.

   Capital "m" mindfulness reminds me of the way people these days wear "distressed" jeans, you know, already frayed and with holes in them. Back in the day the only pants we wore were levi's and we patched them with increasingly more exotic patches as an ironic comment on the fashion industry. We often got our jeans second hand so they wore out pretty quickly. We took pride in our genuine poverty. (Did you know that you can use foodstamps to buy nearly all the ingredients for making beer?) Now I wear new jeans until the holes are too big and then I make rags of them. (I only wear pants doing construction; my entire wardrobe consists of shorts, tshirts, slippers and the occasional aloha shirt for formal events.)

   Meditation as an industry is a travesty, sort of like rajneesh's ashram, or trump's presidency,, or xtianity. If people want it con men will sell it to them; whatever you want, it is for sale, and as long as you obtain the money by hook or by crook you can purchase even poverty, or forgiveness.

   I remember when people used to speak of "signs of the apocalypse." Now they are everywhere.

t

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:52 PM as a reply to J W.
J W:
Chris Marti:
My humble opinion is that this is about what's happening inside companies that are happy to leverage this wonderful tool called meditation (watered down as "mindfulness") and use it in ways that may be well-meaning or may not. But they're not a very good vector for it, and their motives are suspect (Starbucks example), and they don't really know what the thing truly is. It becomes another wellness program, helping to save money on insurance over the long haul, maybe making people "happier" by helping them cope with stress. And yes, stress is always in some way "in our heads" but it's source in today's workplace isn't.


Right, I guess my question is "and what now?", in other words, what do we do with this information?

I do believe there is value in simply understanding, of course, especially in understanding 'problems' as 'problems' (at least as they exist in a dualistic sense), and as those problems are constantly changing, there needs to be some amount of continuous effort put into this understanding.  But what action, or what intention, should be taken as a result of that understanding?  Or would you say all we can really do is to understand the problem?  I think I could understand that viewpoint.

FYI I am not claiming to fully understand the issue, I suppose I feel that the general thought here on DhO is already generally pretty wary of corporate mindfulness, though maybe that's not an accurate assumption.  I would place myself as someone who was already pretty wary of corporate mindfulness though, even before I found DhO. 



  I think no action is indicated. They have been doing this to yoga for years and years, and that is arguably worse. It's just more corporate kabuki and if you give it any credence at all you empower them. It's like arguing with trump people on the issues: they win regardless, by default. Facts don't signify.

terry




ad in local paper:

"yoga teacher wanted, no experience necessary."

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 2:57 PM as a reply to terry.
and what do you see?



RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 3:03 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:

  I think no action is indicated. 

Well, no action is indicated from the article itself, which is I guess my main criticism of the article.  It points out the flaws of Mindfulness but offers no solution or better alternative.  Maybe that part's in one of his other books. 

But my question, 'how do we make it better?' was more directed reflexively, as in, what can we here as Buddhist (or non-Buddhist) practitioners do to contribute towards the society that we want to be a part of?  ...maybe that's a rhetorical question.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 3:10 PM as a reply to J W.
I know this from personal experience visiting many companies and talking to executives: corporations generally look at mindfulness programs the way the look at putting a workout room in their facilities.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 3:24 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I know this from personal experience visiting many companies and talking to executives: corporations generally look at mindfulness programs the way the look at putting a workout room in their facilities.
I mean, understood, but are we not beating a dead horse at this point?  What's really the intention here?


“Don't condemn if you see a person has a dirty glass of water, just show them the clean glass of water that you have. When they inspect it, you won't have to say that yours is better."
-said by Elijah Muhammad to Malcolm X”


RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 3:28 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
J W:
Chris Marti:
My humble opinion is that this is about what's happening inside companies that are happy to leverage this wonderful tool called meditation (watered down as "mindfulness") and use it in ways that may be well-meaning or may not. But they're not a very good vector for it, and their motives are suspect (Starbucks example), and they don't really know what the thing truly is. It becomes another wellness program, helping to save money on insurance over the long haul, maybe making people "happier" by helping them cope with stress. And yes, stress is always in some way "in our heads" but it's source in today's workplace isn't.


Right, I guess my question is "and what now?", in other words, what do we do with this information?

I do believe there is value in simply understanding, of course, especially in understanding 'problems' as 'problems' (at least as they exist in a dualistic sense), and as those problems are constantly changing, there needs to be some amount of continuous effort put into this understanding.  But what action, or what intention, should be taken as a result of that understanding?  Or would you say all we can really do is to understand the problem?  I think I could understand that viewpoint.

FYI I am not claiming to fully understand the issue, I suppose I feel that the general thought here on DhO is already generally pretty wary of corporate mindfulness, though maybe that's not an accurate assumption.  I would place myself as someone who was already pretty wary of corporate mindfulness though, even before I found DhO. 



  I think no action is indicated. They have been doing this to yoga for years and years, and that is arguably worse. It's just more corporate kabuki and if you give it any credence at all you empower them. It's like arguing with trump people on the issues: they win regardless, by default. Facts don't signify.

terry




ad in local paper:

"yoga teacher wanted, no experience necessary."


    Back in the sixties, the maharishi mahesh yogi popularized "transcendental meditation" and actually trademarked the term. Even then we used to joke about "TM (tm)".

    Paraphrasing lao-tzu: The tao is not popular; what is popular is not tao.  Seeking the universal one becomes exceptional.

terry





Of all the things that are beyond my power, I value nothing more highly than to be allowed the honor of entering into bonds of friendship with people who sincerely love truth. For, of things beyond our power, I believe there is nothing in the world which we can love with tranquility except such men.

Spinoza, Correspondence, 146, Letter xix

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 4:31 PM as a reply to J W.
J W:
Chris Marti:
I know this from personal experience visiting many companies and talking to executives: corporations generally look at mindfulness programs the way the look at putting a workout room in their facilities.
I mean, understood, but are we not beating a dead horse at this point?  What's really the intention here?


“Don't condemn if you see a person has a dirty glass of water, just show them the clean glass of water that you have. When they inspect it, you won't have to say that yours is better."
-said by Elijah Muhammad to Malcolm X”



   elijah muhammad inspected malcolm x's glass and found the clear reflection of his own dirtiness unbearable...leading to malcolm's tragic demise...

   besides, in actuality, nothing is harder to inspect than transparency...

condemnation gets a bad rap from criminals...

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 4:52 PM as a reply to J W.
... are we not beating a dead horse at this point?  What's really the intention here?

Information is empowering and democratizing. Starbucks might stop giving mindfulness apps to its employees in lieu of pay increases. The next corporation that thinks like that might think again. Blaming workplace stress on its victims might be rethought. Who knows?

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 5:45 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
If I worked at a company where I was stressed out and unhappy, I'd rather just have the money instead of benefits like a gym or an app or what have you. Decide what I want to do with that money on my own time rather than participate in whatever wellness thing they're trying to push. Or if it's either the app or nothing, maybe just nothing then. I've also talked to lots of execs and employees in organizations. In my experience, what I've found is that when employees don't trust their leadership team, they view it as a major insult to be given amenities if there's glaring structural issues that remain unaddressed. It exacerbates the trust issue.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 7:14 PM as a reply to Steph.
If I worked at a company where I was stressed out and unhappy, I'd rather just have the money instead of benefits like a gym or an app or what have you. Decide what I want to do with that money on my own time rather than participate in whatever wellness thing they're trying to push.

I think probably almost everyone would rather to have the money or other improvements instead of these "wellness pills", if they had a clear picture of what is going on with their workplace.
I think the important point is that these power-people don't want their employees to get to a point to start questioning things, because questioning is the beginning of change, be it constructive or destructive change. So they use these pills to keep employees busy in one sense, and numb in another sense, so that they don't start questioning.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/16/20 10:29 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Right. I feel like in the article and lots of other cases the employees already know and have been questioning things and corporate motives already for a long time. The average worker at a corporation probably knows what's up. They're there to make a living and I doubt they're in the dark about being in a subordinant position. There's no real way around it in the capitalist model. Everyone's chugging along in that machine whether they like or not. An app or other numb-inducing thing isn't going to prevent a revolt or anything. Lots of other larger issues have been at work to keep that from happening. 

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 9:30 AM as a reply to Steph.
... don't trust their leadership team...

Yeah, that's by far the number one deal-breaker. When we teach leadership we emphasize that trust is the coin of the realm.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 9:55 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris :
Information is empowering and democratizing. Starbucks might stop giving mindfulness apps to its employees in lieu of pay increases. The next corporation that thinks like that might think again. Blaming workplace stress on its victims might be rethought. Who knows?
Sure, on a macro level that would be a good possibility to hope for.  Though I don't think it's as simple as "if we criticize something enough, it will go away". 
The information is there, its readily available, as it should be. I'd go so far as to say, it's common knowledge. More books will be written, probably. Maybe even a bestseller.
As far as *here* on the Dho, while it's a good intention, I'm not sure if it's realistic. This just doesn't seem to be a place where Starbucks CEOs hang out. Future CEOs, maybe?

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 10:05 AM as a reply to J W.
Sure, on a macro level that would be a good possibility to hope for.  Though I don't think it's as simple as "if we criticize something enough, it will go away". 
The information is there, its readily available, as it should be. I'd go so far as to say, it's common knowledge. More books will be written, probably. Maybe even a bestseller.
As far as *here* on the Dho, while it's a good intention, I'm not sure if it's realistic. This just doesn't seem to be a place where Starbucks CEOs hang out. Future CEOs, maybe?

All we can do, here and elsewhere, is educate and inform others. The primary object of this kind of information should be the executives in companies that mis-apply mindfulness - those who make these decisions. Articles like the one I linked here to start this topic can contribute to that process. Public opinion, academic research and published results can make a difference. I've seen changes happen. And... this has to go far beyond DhO but that seems pretty obvious to me - and apparently to you, too.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 11:06 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks again for the discussion Chris.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 11:51 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
and what do you see?



the ayes have it...

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 12:40 PM as a reply to J W.
J W:
terry:

  I think no action is indicated. 

Well, no action is indicated from the article itself, which is I guess my main criticism of the article.  It points out the flaws of Mindfulness but offers no solution or better alternative.  Maybe that part's in one of his other books. 

But my question, 'how do we make it better?' was more directed reflexively, as in, what can we here as Buddhist (or non-Buddhist) practitioners do to contribute towards the society that we want to be a part of?  ...maybe that's a rhetorical question.
aloha jw,

    It is the essential question, one of those questions a person can obsess on when taking psychedelics, an existential question: "what is there to do?"

   Taoism can be distilled to two principles:

1) non-interference
2) suspended judgment

   Consider how we got here. Here we find ourselves, "thrown" iinto a world that's happening happening happening and we have to catch up and do as others do just to tread water.

   As lewis carroll had it:


"Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else—if you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing."

"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!" 


   We find ourselves doing all sorts of things and entangled in all sorts of commitments and obligations that we have more or less fallen or stumbled into, as a result of the "doing" that we have been doing since we were born.

  Now that we are aware and are capable and presumably competent we can ask ourselves the question, "what can we do to make our world a better place for sentient being?" Note that in order to improve something you have to understand it and know how to make it better. Think about how little we really are able to do that, other than correct obvious abuses in our immediate vicinity. 

   A taoist would say, 1) don't interfere and 2) suspend judgment. Aka wei wu wei, "doing non-doing."  "Let the mud settle" is the classic way of putting it.

   Danger is the result of ambition. Every creature by nature is doing its best, what else could it do? To assume that "things" are all wrong and that we should take immediate action to fix society through systemic change involves a number of dubious assumptions about our competence and insight. 

   It's easy to see that our society is less than ideal. And it is easy to change our own attitudes and behave better. Attempting to change others is difficult, unethical and hubristic.

   Consider children, who learn from your example and discount what you say if it doesn't reflect actual behavior. If you lecture children on how they "ought" to behave, the children will turn around and lecture their peers similarly. If you behave with character and rectitude, they naturally follow your example.

   It seems like a limited activity, to depend on a good example and make no effort to change people. To let them be free and sort it out for themselves. In rural neighbor island hawaii it is our culture to put up with people's foibles, and let them work it out, until you get tired of it and make them stop. We're not much into lecturing each other on how to act. 

   If you can simply be genuine, you are a culture hero of the first water. If you can be happy, you are a national treasure. As an activist who suffers from inner demons, you cause more harm than good.


terry



ONCE IN A LIFETIME
(Talking Heads)

And you may find yourself
Living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself
In another part of the world
And you may find yourself
Behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house
With a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself, well
How did I get here?
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
And you may ask yourself
How do I work this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house!
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife!
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Water dissolving and water removing
There is water at the bottom of the ocean
Under the water, carry the water
Remove the water at the bottom of the ocean!
Water dissolving and water removing
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again into silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
You may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
You may ask yourself
Where does that highway go to?
And you may ask yourself
Am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say yourself
"My God! What have I done?"
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Look where my hand was
Time isn't holding up
Time isn't after us
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Letting the days go by
Same as it ever was
And here the twister comes
Here comes the twister
Letting the days go by (same as it ever was)
Same as it ever was (same as it ever was)
Letting the days go by (same as it ever was)
Same as it ever was
Once in a lifetime
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by

Songwriters: Brian Eno / Christopher Frantz / David Byrne / Jerry Harrison / Tina Weymouth

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 1:03 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:

   It's easy to see that our society is less than ideal. And it is easy to change our own attitudes and behave better. Attempting to change others is difficult, unethical and hubristic.

   Consider children, who learn from your example and discount what you say if it doesn't reflect actual behavior. If you lecture children on how they "ought" to behave, the children will turn around and lecture their peers similarly. If you behave with character and rectitude, they naturally follow your example.

   It seems like a limited activity, to depend on a good example and make no effort to change people. To let them be free and sort it out for themselves. In rural neighbor island hawaii it is our culture to put up with people's foibles, and let them work it out, until you get tired of it and make them stop. We're not much into lecturing each other on how to act. 

   If you can simply be genuine, you are a culture hero of the first water. If you can be happy, you are a national treasure. As an activist who suffers from inner demons, you cause more harm than good.


terry

Terry, couldn't agree more.  And to clarify, I'm not suggesting we try to change others.  We can, however, try to understand and change our own problematic behaviours. For me personally, not making assumptions about others would be one good place to start.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 1:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... don't trust their leadership team...

Yeah, that's by far the number one deal-breaker. When we teach leadership we emphasize that trust is the coin of the realm.

   "Trust is the coin of the realm." But once you spend it, it's gone. Trust that is bought and sold is like friends and likes on social media, they only undermine the very idea of trust, liking and friendship.

   Reminds of the politician talking about sincerity: "Once you can fake that, you can fake anything."

   "Teaching leadership" is another concept I have trouble with. They do it in the military, and it means following orders, being a better tool. A tool that tools other tools is still a tool.

   Try teaching charisma.

t

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 1:27 PM as a reply to terry.
"Trust is the coin of the realm." But once you spend it, it's gone. Trust that is bought and sold is like friends and likes on social media, they only undermine the very idea of trust, liking and friendship.

This would be the glass half empty version of trust. In my version trust isn't subject to barter. That's demeaning to all involved.

Leaders shouldn't trade in trust. Trust is earned and maintained by people of character and ethics, by doing the right thing even when no one is there to see it. There are leaders who are like that. I've worked with and for a few of them. 







RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 1:35 PM as a reply to terry.
Danger is the result of ambition. Every creature by nature is doing its best, what else could it do? To assume that "things" are all wrong and that we should take immediate action to fix society through systemic change involves a number of dubious assumptions about our competence and insight. 

Why did we outlaw slavery? 

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 2:06 PM as a reply to J W.
J W:
terry:

   It's easy to see that our society is less than ideal. And it is easy to change our own attitudes and behave better. Attempting to change others is difficult, unethical and hubristic.

   Consider children, who learn from your example and discount what you say if it doesn't reflect actual behavior. If you lecture children on how they "ought" to behave, the children will turn around and lecture their peers similarly. If you behave with character and rectitude, they naturally follow your example.

   It seems like a limited activity, to depend on a good example and make no effort to change people. To let them be free and sort it out for themselves. In rural neighbor island hawaii it is our culture to put up with people's foibles, and let them work it out, until you get tired of it and make them stop. We're not much into lecturing each other on how to act. 

   If you can simply be genuine, you are a culture hero of the first water. If you can be happy, you are a national treasure. As an activist who suffers from inner demons, you cause more harm than good.


terry

Terry, couldn't agree more.  And to clarify, I'm not suggesting we try to change others.  We can, however, try to understand and change our own problematic behaviours. For me personally, not making assumptions about others would be one good place to start.


   "Doing," or action, or karma, involves injecting our assumptions into willed, intentional behavior. Active doing inevitably has consequences and repercussions which exceed or confound our intentions.

   Assumptions are the very devil but what could we say without them? We throw out assumptions and humbly ask "others" to correct them. This is the dialectic.

  And we learn, from dialog. As naturally as children.

   The idea of non-doing also applies to changing our own behavior. When the buddha preached the dharma in the pali suttas, he would reach a point where his hearers were filled with understanding and comprehension, and he would tell them, now is the time to do as you will. We too can reach a point where everything is luminously clear, and then simply behave naturally without motives, other than "eat when hungry, sleep when tired."

   As sufism and zen point out, we are a combinatoin of perfect mind and animal lust. Perfect mind needs no cultivation, so in practice dealing with "our own problematic behaviors" involves taming and yoking the animal. Feed it, keep it clean, exercise it and restrain it. Make it a willing partner who can understand its best interests are in serving its lord, as in the four horses of the buddhist story, the best of whom respond  when seeing the shadow of the whip. Once the animal is somewhat tame, we have come to realize that taming the animal is a lifetime occupation of considerable difficulty and every generation struggles with it. Demanding that people behave better often ignores the fact that they are doing the best that they can. Helping someone you understand is already doing the best they can is a different thing from correcting people who are "wrong."

   Besides, not judging others and not having expectations of them frees up lots of energy for working on oneself, training the animal.


terry



from "radical zen; the sayings of joshu" ed and trans yoel hoffman:


5.
Joshu was standing on the ladder above the well at Nansen's monastery, drawing water, when he saw Nansen passing below. He held on to a rung, dangling his feet in midair, and cried, "Help! Help!"
Nansen climbed the ladder, saying, "One, two, three. four, five." After a moment Joshu turned to Nansen to offer his thanks. He said, "Master, I am grateful for your saving me a little while ago."

NOTE: In his show Joshlu calls on his master Nansen to "save" him. Nansen does not respond with a saintlike "salvation" act but slowly climbs up the ladder. Nansen does not rush to "save" Joshu, not only because Joshu's call for help is a show, but because even where there is real need for rescue (from the bonds of suffering), all one can do for the other (and for oneself) is to walk one's own path step by step. Had Nansen "rescued" Joshu, Joshu could not have saved himself. Joshu thanks Nansen for making him realize this .

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 2:41 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
"Trust is the coin of the realm." But once you spend it, it's gone. Trust that is bought and sold is like friends and likes on social media, they only undermine the very idea of trust, liking and friendship.

This would be the glass half empty version of trust. In my version trust isn't subject to barter. That's demeaning to all involved.

Leaders shouldn't trade in trust. Trust is earned and maintained by people of character and ethics, by doing the right thing even when no one is there to see it. There are leaders who are like that. I've worked with and for a few of them. 








   Me, I've never done anything right in my life, and wouldn't know where to start. Sorry to say I've never met any people like those you speak of. Trust me.

   If I had any such coins I gave them away, along with my reason and reputation.

   To me trust is absolute, like unconditional love. I trust that god is working through you even if you don't know it. As a rule I trust people to be as they present themselves, until they make it clear they don't want that sort of trust, and then I let them be. It doesn't have anything to do with trustworthiness (coins), which is hard to judge.

terry



from the rubaiyat of omar khayyam, trans fitzgerald


LXIX

 Indeed, the Idols I have loved so long
 Have done my Credit in Men's Eye much wrong:
   Have drown'd my Honour in a shallow Cup,
 And sold my Reputation for a Song.


LXX.

 Indeed, indeed, Repentance oft before
 I swore—but was I sober when I swore?
   And then and then came Spring, and Rose-in-hand
 My thread-bare Penitence a-pieces tore.


LXXI.

 And much as Wine has play'd the Infidel,
 And robb'd me of my Robe of Honour—well,
   I often wonder what the Vintners buy
 One half so precious as the Goods they sell.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 2:47 PM as a reply to terry.
Me, I've never done anything right in my life, and wouldn't know where to start. Sorry to say I've never met any people like those you speak of. Trust me.

I'm sorry to say, too.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 3:01 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Chris Marti:
"Trust is the coin of the realm." But once you spend it, it's gone. Trust that is bought and sold is like friends and likes on social media, they only undermine the very idea of trust, liking and friendship.

This would be the glass half empty version of trust. In my version trust isn't subject to barter. That's demeaning to all involved.

Leaders shouldn't trade in trust. Trust is earned and maintained by people of character and ethics, by doing the right thing even when no one is there to see it. There are leaders who are like that. I've worked with and for a few of them. 








   Me, I've never done anything right in my life, and wouldn't know where to start. Sorry to say I've never met any people like those you speak of. Trust me.

   If I had any such coins I gave them away, along with my reason and reputation.

   To me trust is absolute, like unconditional love. I trust that god is working through you even if you don't know it. As a rule I trust people to be as they present themselves, until they make it clear they don't want that sort of trust, and then I let them be. It doesn't have anything to do with trustworthiness (coins), which is hard to judge.

terry



from the rubaiyat of omar khayyam, trans fitzgerald


LXIX

 Indeed, the Idols I have loved so long
 Have done my Credit in Men's Eye much wrong:
   Have drown'd my Honour in a shallow Cup,
 And sold my Reputation for a Song.


LXX.

 Indeed, indeed, Repentance oft before
 I swore—but was I sober when I swore?
   And then and then came Spring, and Rose-in-hand
 My thread-bare Penitence a-pieces tore.


LXXI.

 And much as Wine has play'd the Infidel,
 And robb'd me of my Robe of Honour—well,
   I often wonder what the Vintners buy
 One half so precious as the Goods they sell.


tao te ching, trans mitchell


49

The Master has no mind of her own.
She works with the mind of the people.

She is good to people who are good.
She is also good to people who aren't good.
This is true goodness.

She trusts people who are trustworthy.
She also trusts people who aren't trustworthy.
This is true trust.

The Master's mind is like space.
People don't understand her.
They look to her and wait.
She treats them like her own children.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 4:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Me, I've never done anything right in my life, and wouldn't know where to start. Sorry to say I've never met any people like those you speak of. Trust me.

I'm sorry to say, too.


christians tell me I'm a poor witness

in truth, I've never had anything to do with people in suits - I always said I would as soon wear a nazi uniform...
I've never worn a tie as an adult...
never gotten a haircut since I left the navy...

I literally never even met any of the people you speak of...

not sorry, either...


t

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/17/20 4:33 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Chris Marti:
Me, I've never done anything right in my life, and wouldn't know where to start. Sorry to say I've never met any people like those you speak of. Trust me.

I'm sorry to say, too.


christians tell me I'm a poor witness

in truth, I've never had anything to do with people in suits - I always said I would as soon wear a nazi uniform...
I've never worn a tie as an adult...
never gotten a haircut since I left the navy...

I literally never even met any of the people you speak of...

not sorry, either...


t


   what are people engaged in the rat race like?

obviously....






from "radical zen; the sayings of joshu" trans hoffman



14.
A monk asked, "A holy temple - what is it like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up [i.e., a virgin]."
The monk said, "Those inside the holy temple - what are they like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up, pregnant."

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/19/20 9:19 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Me, I've never done anything right in my life, and wouldn't know where to start. Sorry to say I've never met any people like those you speak of. Trust me.

I'm sorry to say, too.


christians tell me I'm a poor witness

in truth, I've never had anything to do with people in suits - I always said I would as soon wear a nazi uniform...
I've never worn a tie as an adult...
never gotten a haircut since I left the navy...

I literally never even met any of the people you speak of...

not sorry, either...


t


   what are people engaged in the rat race like?

obviously....






from "radical zen; the sayings of joshu" trans hoffman



14.
A monk asked, "A holy temple - what is it like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up [i.e., a virgin]."
The monk said, "Those inside the holy temple - what are they like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up, pregnant."




in the spirit of corporate mindfulness...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ&list=PL2EbESdPFdo4PtTC22P-A3PGN8gBEEaks&index=2




KILLING IN THE NAME OF
(Rage Against the Machine)

Killing in the name of
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Uh
Killing in the name of
Killing in the name of
Now you do what they told ya
Now you do what they told ya
Now you do what they told ya
Now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya
But now you do what they told ya
Well now you do what they told ya
Those who died are justified
For wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
You justify those that died
By wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
Those who died are justified
For wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
You justify those who died
By wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Some of those that work forces
Are the same that burn crosses
Uh
Killing in the name of
Killing in the name of
Now you do what they told ya
Now you do what they told ya
Now you do what they told ya
Now you do what they told ya
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
And now you do what they told ya
Those who died are justified
For wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
You justify those that died
By wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
Those who died are justified
For wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
You justify those that died
By wearing the badge
They're the chosen whites
Come on
Uh
Yeah
Come on
Uh
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Motherfucker
Uh

Songwriters: Timothy Commerford / Thomas B. Morello / Zack M. De La Rocha / Brad J. Wilk

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/21/20 2:21 AM as a reply to terry.
Nan-in received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/21/20 8:00 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Me, I've never done anything right in my life, and wouldn't know where to start. Sorry to say I've never met any people like those you speak of. Trust me.

I'm sorry to say, too.


christians tell me I'm a poor witness

in truth, I've never had anything to do with people in suits - I always said I would as soon wear a nazi uniform...
I've never worn a tie as an adult...
never gotten a haircut since I left the navy...

I literally never even met any of the people you speak of...

not sorry, either...


t


   what are people engaged in the rat race like?

obviously....






from "radical zen; the sayings of joshu" trans hoffman



14.
A monk asked, "A holy temple - what is it like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up [i.e., a virgin]."
The monk said, "Those inside the holy temple - what are they like?"
Joshu said, "A maiden with her hair rolled up, pregnant."



from "learning how to learn" by idries shah




CHARITY OF THE RATS


Dr. J. T. Greene, of Georgia University, took ten white rats and trained them to obtain food pellets by pressing one of two levers in their cage. One lever produced fewer pellets and was hard to depress, and the rats soon found this out and ignored it, con­centrating on the other. Now the experimenter wired the levers so that when the one which yielded food was pressed, a rat in the next cage received an electric shock.

What did the food-seeking rats do? First, they recognised that their actions were giving their neighbour pain; then no less than eight out of ten of them went over to the other lever, even though it was hard to work, and concentrated on it, saving their fellow from further harm.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
10/30/20 1:28 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Nan-in received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
“Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

   "I threw my cup away when I saw a child drinking from his hands at the trough." 

~diogenes



   (I wonder if you realize this parable is about pouring out more and more zen into rhe minds of those who profess until the their cups spill over and their pretense of high tea is spoiled.)






from "let the beauty we love be what we do," rumi, ed and trans amante, cohen and soulard:



WHO SAYS WORDS WITH MY MOUTH?

All day I think about it, then at night I say it.
Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? I have no idea.
My soul is from elsewhere, I’m sure of that,
and I intend to end up there.

This drunkenness began in some other tavern.
When I get back around to that place,
I’ll be completely sober. Meanwhile,
I’m like a bird from another continent, sitting in this aviary.
The day is coming when I fly off,
but who is it now in my ear who hears my voice?
Who says words with my mouth?

Who looks out with my eyes? What is the soul?
I cannot stop asking.
If I could taste one sip of an answer,
I could break out of this prison for drunks.
I didn’t come here of my own accord, and I can’t leave that way.
Whoever brought me here will have to take me home.

This poetry. I never know what I’m going to say. I don’t plan it.
When I’m outside the saying of it,
I get very quiet and rarely speak at all.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
11/11/20 4:00 PM as a reply to Steph.
I guess it depends on the Starbucks. At my local store the employees seem to be having a good time where the Boss lady looks like the one who is stressed out and needs some mindfulness.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
11/11/20 4:21 PM as a reply to A. Dietrich Ringle.
A. Dietrich Ringle:
I guess it depends on the Starbucks. At my local store the employees seem to be having a good time where the Boss lady looks like the one who is stressed out and needs some mindfulness.


    I literally drink almost nothing but kona coffee. The kona starbucks doesn't sell kona coffee, they can't make a profit selling quality coffee. They have to add lots of cheap calories to coffee flavored caffeine beverages to build their empire of ersatz. The macdonalds of coffee, with a similar social footprint. Corporate karmic corruption.

t

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
11/11/20 10:47 PM as a reply to terry.
Do you know when the growing season is?

I have heard that most coffee drinkers will be priced out of the market.

I have never had Kona coffee.

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
11/11/20 10:49 PM as a reply to A. Dietrich Ringle.
Points one and two are vague. Or maybe I am vague?

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
11/12/20 12:36 AM as a reply to A. Dietrich Ringle.
A. Dietrich Ringle:
Do you know when the growing season is?

I have heard that most coffee drinkers will be priced out of the market.

I have never had Kona coffee.
   Best coffee in the world, bra; only jamaican blue mountain compares and it just doesn't have that acid zing.

  t grows all the time, and fiming depends on when the rains set in being as every location is a microclimate. The flowers smell great, and look kind of like a xmas tree draped with popcorn. After a while the trees (about 6 to 10 ft in height, some over 100 years old) are heavy with red cherries, and again look like xmas trees, though leafy.

   I lived in a coffee shack for over a year. I tried to make my own coffee from cherry, but it isn't easy, and I didn't succeed. Once the fruit has rotted off the bean you have what is called "parchment" because the beans have a tight coating of a paper like substance. They are generally spread out in screened buildings to let the parchment dry then are put through a mechanical process which abrades the parchment off. Most coffee farmers send the cherry to the mill, or they send the parchment to the mill. The the roaster gets it after that, so it is not something the farmer actualy does all phases of. Generally the roaster mixes the product of various farms for a generic (though excellent) kona coffee, regardless of the label, though there are "estate coffees" which have theirs roasted separately. I get mine wholesale for $23/lb directly from a farm up on rock bottom road, dr paulo's. I drink about a lb a week, or a bit more.

terry


from "buddhascup.com" (f'real):

"Timing is key to harvesting the best batch of coffee beans. Kona buds begin to blossom at the start of the rainy season, usually in the early Spring and Summer. Come August, the bright green pulpy fruit surrounding two coffee beans, called cherries, becomes ripe. Cherries continue to ripen up until February."

RE: Corporate Mindfulness: Blame the Victim?
Answer
11/12/20 7:04 AM as a reply to terry.
I want to weigh in on this coffee convo to agree with terry. Kona coffee is the bomb. 

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