Question regarding the role of a kasina

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Rashed Arafat, modified 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 8:56 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 8:56 AM

Question regarding the role of a kasina

Posts: 155 Join Date: 7/13/11 Recent Posts
Hello! Please bear with me as I try to ask a few questions below (my mind is having a hard time putting all this into perspective, so I may seem all over the place)!

First, some background:
I read that in order to attain the different jhanas, you should just stay with your chosen kasina for as long as you need to (keep coming back to it and stabilizing if your mind wanders off). Basically, just make sure that you've got good access concentration going, and merely focus on that and let the 1st jhana rise on its own.

Also, that when you notice a "pleasant" sensation whilst in access concentration, that you should move into it, and that is most likely to give rise to the 1st jhana (not sure if "pleasantness" is the quality to be looking for in moving from 1st to 2nd -- more on that below).

In addition, I know that the attention is supposed to "narrow down" a bit for the 1st jhana, and that it "widens out" a bit for the 2nd.

However, my question is: What if the "pleasant sensation" involves a shifting from one kasina to another, completely? For instance, if I start out with a flame, and then eventually notice that the sensation of my breathing feels pleasant, and good, then should I move to the breath and make that my kasina, or does this count as a breach in concentration (particularly since the attention is doing a 180)? Also, how about going from "eyes open" to "eyes closed"?

Also, since the 2nd jhana tends to "show itself" and barely any effort on my part is required to stay in it, is the process of moving from the 2nd to the 3rd jhana similar to moving from access concentration to the 1st jhana?

To me it seems like there's an active component in moving from access concentration to the 1st jhana where the mind "sees/feels" a pleasant sensation/the jhana and moves into it (for me this shift is pretty palpable). I'm not sure if I have 2nd jhana yet (I think I do), but in moving from the 1st to the 2nd, it seems as though the mind recognizes the "narrowed-in" quality of its own attention, and that there's "space" or a wider field of attention surrounding it, and once that's recognized, it's not too difficult to shift into that wider space and begin to rest there (to me a lot of "effortless contemplation" occurs in this state -- again, I'm not sure if it's the 2nd jhana or not, but I think it is because it's surely not dropping back into access concentration).

In other words, if I'm already in a fairly "passive" state (in the 2nd jhana), then what is the exact mechanism that triggers the 3rd jhana? What should I be looking for, or is all I have to do nothing more than cultivate the 2nd jhana?

I guess one concern of mine is that when I'm in what I think is the 2nd jhana for a while, things just become really ill-defined, and there's a sense that the meditation isn't going anywhere -- that my attention is "diffuse" and there's hardly any one-pointedness. This wouldn't be a problem if bliss were really high on the scale of experiences in this state, but what I'm describing is really more akin to me just sitting there (losing motivation to even maintain my posture) thinking: "What's going on here? What is this state? Am I just out of my meditation altogether?" It's almost as though there's either not enough "gas/fuel" to cultivate the 2nd jhana, or I do not know exactly what "cultivation" consists of while in the 2nd jhana.

I'm afraid of not practicing "right" or "correctly," and I really don't want to delude myself into thinking that I'm making progress in my Concentration Practice when in actuality I'm getting sidetracked into states that aren't jhanas (what could they be if they aren't? Daydreaming? Perhaps...).

Thanks in advance for any insights into my predicament!

Rashed
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Rashed Arafat, modified 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 12:18 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 12:14 PM

RE: Question regarding the role of a kasina

Posts: 155 Join Date: 7/13/11 Recent Posts
There was a response to the above by a new guy (like myself), and I wanted to thank him for it (he provided a link to an audio that was helpful to me). I guess somehow his response was deleted (maybe accidentally by himself)...

At any rate -- I sat again with the intention of sorting out (to whatever extent possible) the predicament described above, and here's what I've come up with:

1. I err too much on the side of thinking that the 2nd jhana has to do with a wider field of attention than the 1st jhana, when it has more to do with the dropping of applied effort. I found out that I can reach a state where staying concentrated on the flame (my kasina) can be done with great ease, and even comfort. This, to me, indicates a good degree of "effortlessness," and I will take it to mean "2nd jhana."

2. I can flip back and forth between the 2nd and 1st jhanas depending on how solidly I am in the 2nd jhana. It seems that the state of effortlessness, at least for me, gets easily perturbed by distractions (sounds in the house, etc.) and when that happens, I fall back into the 1st jhana and my mind tries to "affix" itself to the kasina in an attempt to re-solidify concentration, so that I may work my way back up to the 2nd jhana (and release control). I am thinking that the 2nd jhana gets cultivated by simply abiding in that still, enjoyable presence. For me, there's almost a "nourishing" quality to staying in that state of attention (because it's self-sustaining, for lack of a better word).

3. I have somewhat of a theory regarding what was happening with the mental confusion/wandering attention in the 2nd jhana, and it's as follows: Basically, because I was preoccupied with the notion that my attention would "widen out" somewhat in the 2nd jhana, with my mind I nevertheless tried to find a "kasina" to latch on to (letting go of the flame and looking for something "bigger"). Now I've come to realize that it's the letting go of control, and not the flame (the primary kasina) that is the hallmark of this jhana. In essence, the shift from 1st to 2nd jhana was for me to see that I no longer had to try to stay centered on the flame -- it was happening on its own.

Anyway, that's my self-diagnosis. I would be grateful for further light-shedding on this subject! emoticon

Rashed
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N A, modified 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 12:40 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 12:40 PM

RE: Question regarding the role of a kasina

Posts: 157 Join Date: 7/10/11 Recent Posts
This matches my experience, except I do mindfulness of breath and haven't tried kasinas much. In the first jhana, I hold tightly onto the breath, it is the focus of my attention and I exert effort to keep it that way. In the second jhana, I don't have to do that anymore, and the breath stops being the obvious focus of attention - I can note all sorts of other things too, but can't help being aware of the breath at the same time.

It feels like there's a separate "focus of conscious attention", and "whatever's most prominent in the current experience", and in the second jhana the object of meditation is what's most prominent, while the focus of attention may shift (although it returns to the object of mediation by itself).
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Rashed Arafat, modified 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 2:37 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/22/11 2:34 PM

RE: Question regarding the role of a kasina

Posts: 155 Join Date: 7/13/11 Recent Posts
In the second jhana, I don't have to do that anymore, and the breath stops being the obvious focus of attention - I can note all sorts of other things too, but can't help being aware of the breath at the same time.


That's IT! The flame for me was sort of like a "reference point" or an "anchor-point," while the mind gently and quietly did its own thing -- for me the highlighting feature was effortless contemplation, by which I mean an open and accepting way of looking at not just the flame, but also other mental phenomena.

However, in MCTB Daniel talks about how in the 2nd jhana you're not focused on anything specific, which threw me for a loop because I certainly was treating the flame, specifically, as my anchor-point -- the "source" of the jhana, in a sense. Initially, I tried to avert my attention from the flame, thinking that focusing on that would pull me down to the 1st jhana -- but the result was all the trouble I talked about above, e.g. a mind that's wanting to settle down on something specific but can't (because I wouldn't let it).

However (again!), I'm thinking maybe I've been mistaking access concentration as being 1st jhana -- that the gentle stability that I took to be the 2nd jhana couldn't exist without first having really stabilized the mind/attained one-pointedness (which is what you're doing during access concentration).

I guess for me the question boils down to how much effort should I be expecting to put into the 1st jhana?

Like I said above, I can experience the dropping of almost all effort and yet I need to consider the flame as being the "center" of the experience -- otherwise my mind goes crazy, looking to stabilize itself on something. If not focusing on anything specific is a defining feature of the 2nd jhana, then I probably don't have it, and only have a really, really deep 1st jhana.

Anyway -- I know I'm way over-thinking this stuff, but I'm pretty obsessive by nature and my intellect has a great hunger to conceptually understand altered states of consciousness...
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 12 Years ago at 8/23/11 5:24 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/23/11 5:24 AM

RE: Question regarding the role of a kasina

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hey, just a brief note at this early morning hour

Lots of interesting topics, but very briefly and in no particular order:

Third jhana is wider and more diffuse, equanimous, and cool than 2nd, in general, and will not feel like the sharp, one-pointed focus of 2nd or 1st. 2nd to 3rd requires a more open and broad concentration than 2nd, and this can feel strange to some people, as they feel good practice is all about laser-like sharpness: the higher stages are more about inclusiveness and peace and diffusion of awareness through space and that sort of thing...

There is the object and then there is the jhana. They are different things, in some ways.

If you goal is to get jhana on some object, and to stay with the object regardless, then that is one thing, but if all you care about is jhana, then shifting objects as they naturally shift is fine, just so long as you stay in whatever jhana you are looking for.

The second jhana is not about any object specifically, but lots of objects can be the object in the 2nd jhana: see this wiki entry for more on this topic:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Jhana%20Development%20Axes?p_r_p_185834411_title=Jhana%20Development%20Axes

Have fun!

Daniel
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Rashed Arafat, modified 12 Years ago at 8/23/11 1:12 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/23/11 1:08 PM

RE: Question regarding the role of a kasina

Posts: 155 Join Date: 7/13/11 Recent Posts
Hey Daniel!

Thanks for the wiki on jhanas. It actually cleared up a few things for me.

I would say what I'm "shooting for" is a bit multi-faceted:

[indent][/indent]1. Depth, rock-solid stability, and the mind not having any questions as to whether or not I'm in a specific jhana when I'm in it (this tends to happen quite a bit and is bothersome).
[indent][/indent]2. In the spirit of #1, an increased focus on the bliss -- or generally positive/harmonious -- aspects of the jhana (to the point where all the nagging questioning by the intellect recedes to the background, and is perceived as being nothing more than "background noise").

In the audio -- the link to which -- I posted earlier, Leigh Brasington talks about how if you keep going after bliss without having developed sufficient concentration, then you'll keep falling back on your primary object. If that happens, it's best to just stay with the object (and say "no" to the "bliss-windows" as it were) until enough concentration has developed to move into a pleasant sensation and stay there. At least that's my understanding of it.

So to me it seems like developing jhana on an object is a "safer" way to go because it ensures you not losing your "pillar" of concentration as it were. Sometimes I have moved into pleasant sensations when I spotted them, only to return feeling dissatisfied.

I have done some hatha yoga in the past (and do it rather infrequently these days) -- I'm thinking that the energy/chi/prana that the practice generates can bring quite a bit into my Training in Concentration in terms of having a grounded attention.

Also, I'm thinking I need to under-assess myself if anything (use a "conservative approach") because this way I'm less likely to get fooled by states that appear to be higher attainments than they actually are (the ensuing dejection isn't worth it!).

Rashed
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Rashed Arafat, modified 12 Years ago at 8/23/11 6:24 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/23/11 6:24 PM

RE: Question regarding the role of a kasina

Posts: 155 Join Date: 7/13/11 Recent Posts
Just wanted to add a quick note and say that I think I may have to stop my "running commentary" on my practice, and take some time off and actually focus on practice (during that time). The reason I say this is that I actually was able to experience the 2nd jhana very clearly -- and could see exactly what you mean, Daniel, when you say that lots of different objects can play the role of a kasina in the 2nd jhana ("Wherever we look, we see clearly").

I'm aware of the possibility of my mind "creating" the experiences that I read about, so I want to be sure what I find through my practice are bona fide experiences.

However, I do feel glad that I finally got to experience a "textbook case" of the 2nd jhana! emoticon

Thanks, and hopefully when I post again I will have acquired a bit more of a solid conceptual framework for my findings re: The 2nd Training, as well as be better established in the jhanas.

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