The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Daniel, modified 1 Year ago.

The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 19 Join Date: 3/10/20 Recent Posts
Does stage 10 in TMI take you to the same level of development MCTB2 does?

I've read the former, but still need to read the latter. I'm trying to compare the two and see how I can integrate the best bits of both into my practice. Any tips?
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Pepe, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 451 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Hi Daniel, check "Balancing TMI and MCTB approaches" at Shargrol's Post Compilation Blog
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Oatmilk, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 110 Join Date: 7/30/20 Recent Posts
Hey Daniel, 

no MCTB covers all aspects of practice and is based on the Theravada 4th path model (as far as I remember), giving detailed instructions on several practices. 
TMI's main purpose is based on Shamatha. Once you reach a certain level of Shamatha development you start practicing Vipassana (stage 7+) but it's main purpose is the unification of mind, which is achieved at stage 10. Even if you practice at stage 10 it could be the case that you have still not awakend but it it will increase your chances to do so by far. If you are skilled in concentration practice, then I'd definetely recommend TMI, the benefits of Shamatha are truly amazing (also off-cushion) and allow for a solid basis in Vipassana practice. 

Good luck, 

Daniel, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 19 Join Date: 3/10/20 Recent Posts
Thanks for the tips Pepe and Oatmilk. 

Is TMI based on the Theravada four path model? If not, how far does TMI get you through the Theravada model?

I've read TMI several times now and it's what I'm currently doing. Once I've reached stage 10 (which is likely soon), I will need something else, hence why I'm going to read MCTB.
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Oatmilk, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 110 Join Date: 7/30/20 Recent Posts
At which stage are you currently practicing?I'm sorry to bother but the pragmatic 4th path model is a bit self deslusional in a sense that you are not going to achieve anything. I'd try to get rid of the maps and practice TMI as much as I can - it'll do its job very efficiently. 

Edit: My response was a bit inappropriate, see corrected version below. 
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 1654 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Oatmilk:
I'm sorry to bother but the pragmatic 4th path model is a bit self deslusional in a sense that you are not going to achieve anything. 

Could you say more? My experience is that it is fairly practical, not delusional... but I'm interested in your thoughts.
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Oatmilk, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 110 Join Date: 7/30/20 Recent Posts
I'm sorry, the word 'delusional' was too harsh. What I meant by this can become  a self identy trap very fast. I've seen a lot of people claiming x attainments, but as long as there's still the thinking that he or she is 'this or that' then this in my experience shows that they are not as realized as they might think they are. 
I'm certain that it can be a good factor for motivation, or an indicator of a certain skill but from what I've seen is that it can cause a lot of suffering. 
What I wanted to refer to specifically is, that it might be a hindrance to strictly map every bit of experience on the PoI and 4th path model. In retrospect I was using the wrog terminology, forgive me about that, please. 
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 1654 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Ah, okay. I think I understand your thought.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 3209 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
It is true that grossly overcalling "fourth path" is something of an endemic disease here. That doesn't mean that the criteria or goal is not invalid, just that it is very easy to misapply and go astray.

It is also true, as you rightly mention, that mapping can be a suffering-inducing habit and form of further fixation on an identity, as also pointed out at length in MCTB2 and also frequently demonstrated on the DhO. That doesn't mean that the maps can't also have their uses, just that there is a definite learning curve in applying them properly.

I yet again point to these two hopefully salutary essays:

Salutary Essay One

Salutary Essay Two

Best wishes and practice well,

Another Daniel
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 778 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
It is true that grossly overcalling "fourth path" is something of an endemic disease here. That doesn't mean that the criteria or goal is not invalid, just that it is very easy to misapply and go astray.
So it is possible that these criteria and goal is are invalid? emoticon
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Oatmilk, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 110 Join Date: 7/30/20 Recent Posts
Thank you for sharing, Daniel! 
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Pepe, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 451 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Daniel:
Is TMI based on the Theravada four path model? If not, how far does TMI get you through the Theravada model?

TMI follows Asanga's nine stages concentration map, but Culadasa explicitly states in page xviii of the Introduction that TMI is his personal fusion of Indo-Tibetan Mahayana and traditional Theravada teachings. In fact he does talk about theravadan Cessation (pages 286-287), and that Theravada's 1-4 Paths sequence is a consequence of "incomplete transformation" due to a mind "only partially unified". He states that a full awakening happens only once Nirodha Samapatti is reached, which is a complete cessation in one hand and a 9th Jhana in the other (page 446). Somewhere else he states that following TMI your first cessation could well past 1st Path, getting 2nd or even 3rd Path. (Could that explain why early Gautama's disciples -with tonnes of concentration skills under their belts- could achieved full awakening so fast?)

Daniel has drawn a detailed graph where he parallels concentration and insight maps. 
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Oatmilk, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: The Mind Illuminated vs MCTB2?

Posts: 110 Join Date: 7/30/20 Recent Posts
Thank you for sharing this Pepe, very interesting! 

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