Masturbation

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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 7:59 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 7:57 PM

Masturbation

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
To those that are not in an active sexual relationship with another,

How often do you masturbate? Do you visualize (i.e., watch porn) when you do it? How does the frequency of doing it affect the prevalence of sexual desire when with other people? Does going on detox help the actualism practice in anyway? I had a friend allege that not doing it could allow one to automatically channel that sexual energy into other matters (which matter, for us, could be the actualism practice itself). I was skeptical, but now wondering if there is any truth to it.
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Jon T, modified 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 9:06 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 8:38 PM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/30/10 Recent Posts
How often do you masturbate?


Huh? What? Sorry I was too busy cleaning up.

Do you visualize (i.e., watch porn) when you do it?


I prefer Brazilian fart porn but I can do japanese school girls with somali pirates within a mexican soap opera too. I'm flexible.

How does the frequency of doing it affect the prevalence of sexual desire when with other people?


Quite a bit as in going from 'if i only had a wooden club and a private cave' to 'ehh, whatever...it doesn't matter.' Like Louis C.K. said. "I don't have sex drive. I have sex hope. I don't have the energy to drive somewhere for sex but I'll sit in my car and hope a cute willing girl gets in."

Does going on detox help the actualism practice in anyway?


I tried to be celibate then lust overcame by body like a hurricane ripping apart a small sailboat. I haven't gone back. But while i was celibate, I was under the illusion that I was progressing simply because I was dealing with lust in an effective manner (up until I wasn't).

I would get to the point where you honestly feel that you don't have any beliefs regarding anything and then go from there.

It does make sense that after you have dismantled the social identity AND you are so skilled at investigating your emotions that you constantly feel good to great that you would want to try your hand (pun not intended but reveled in) at celibacy just to study lust. There is also something to be said for transferring energy like lust into felicity but in both cases it's better, i would think, to not do it prematurely (yep!) and wait until after the baseline is quite high.
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#1 - 0, modified 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 8:57 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 8:57 PM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 104 Join Date: 8/8/10 Recent Posts
i keep appearing as lust, yeah, and the imaginary chains are pretending to get weaker so that probably means the thing will come to a halt sooner or later
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 9:30 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 9:30 PM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Hmm, 'sex hope' bothers me more than 'sex drive'. When the later first happend with much intensity on Friday, the former kept appearing on and off until yesterday (hopes, visualizations, longings, sometimes accompanied by a curious hardening of the genital[1]). So, yes, the 'sex hope' must first go, but the fear of such possibility is that I'd end up killing any remnant opportunity to get laid (or, to put it in a way that is acceptable to modern society, "to get into a relationship").

[1] usually never happens under such 'romantic longings' (as opposed sexual eye-groping), but then, isn't this the sign that I'm getting closer to the instincts? emoticon
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Steph S, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 12:59 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 12:59 AM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 672 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:
Hmm, 'sex hope' bothers me more than 'sex drive'. When the later first happend with much intensity on Friday, the former kept appearing on and off until yesterday (hopes, visualizations, longings, sometimes accompanied by a curious hardening of the genital[1]). So, yes, the 'sex hope' must first go, but the fear of such possibility is that I'd end up killing any remnant opportunity to get laid (or, to put it in a way that is acceptable to modern society, "to get into a relationship").

[1] usually never happens under such 'romantic longings' (as opposed sexual eye-groping), but then, isn't this the sign that I'm getting closer to the instincts? emoticon


is there any feeling... or stream of thought... that happens in association with any of this that doesn't seem to connote wanting to get laid or not wanting to getting laid?
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 8:52 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 8:52 AM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Steph S:
Harry Potter:
Hmm, 'sex hope' bothers me more than 'sex drive'. When the later first happend with much intensity on Friday, the former kept appearing on and off until yesterday (hopes, visualizations, longings, sometimes accompanied by a curious hardening of the genital[1]). So, yes, the 'sex hope' must first go, but the fear of such possibility is that I'd end up killing any remnant opportunity to get laid (or, to put it in a way that is acceptable to modern society, "to get into a relationship").

[1] usually never happens under such 'romantic longings' (as opposed sexual eye-groping), but then, isn't this the sign that I'm getting closer to the instincts? emoticon


is there any feeling... or stream of thought... that happens in association with any of this that doesn't seem to connote wanting to get laid or not wanting to getting laid?


just to be clear, by 'getting laid' i was referring both to the desire to have intercourse and the desire to love/be-loved[1]. the later is generally stronger. i 'd fantasize being with her, being touched, etc. - but these 'thoughts' and feelings obviously have connection to getting laid; so I don't know what exactly you were looking when asking that question. could you clarify?

oh wait, there is also a subtle indignation ("why are the big boys being treated better than me?") and a resulting subtle resentment (not liking women and couples) ... which I noted a couple of times earlier in my practice thread. nice, i don't think of this as often; need to look into indignation before understanding sex hope, I guess.

[1] both of which have distinct neural correlates, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Fisher_(anthropologist)#Research
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 10:37 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 10:37 AM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:
Steph S:

is there any feeling... or stream of thought... that happens in association with any of this that doesn't seem to connote wanting to get laid or not wanting to getting laid?

[...] there is also a subtle indignation ("why are the big boys being treated better than me?") and a resulting subtle resentment (not liking women and couples) ... which I noted a couple of times earlier in my practice thread. nice, i don't think of this as often; need to look into indignation before understanding sex hope, I guess.


this is what happens: beauty -> lust -> lack -> low self-worth ... (and only then) -> indignation/resentment

low self-worth is where i tend to hang out the most; indignation/resentment occur only in extreme scenarios and when i'm not attentive enough to slip into that.

most curious aspect from my yesterday's investigation is the arising of "lack" following a sequence of lustful experiences (i was sitting in a coffee shop and passively watching the beautiful women pass by, for the very purpose of finding out how i react[1]). it arose in a subtle manner. a slight sense of lack, before which sorrow was unknown. i suppose seeing women *one after another* and finding myself in a position of not being able to "do" anything to *any* of them (which doing would have to eventually effect intercourse/love) is what is leading to the sense of 'lack'.

low self-worth only comes after that (a feeling of 'lack' automatically imputes low-worthiness to 'me'; else, why would there be a 'lack'?) .

haietmoba tells me that i should see the silliness of this lack (i'm not yet prepared to question beauty/lust itself - but 'lack' is clearly a terrible feeling) and get back to feeling better immediately. wheras, the social identity based investigation would want me to look at low self-worth (and indignation/resentment) which so far is not being very effective. i guess, i should improve my attentiveness and try the former approach. it did work for a while yesterday until at some point a serier of such 'lack' (and trying to go back to feeling better) would end up 'convincing' me as to my low worth. let me play with this even more.

[1] 'passively' is the keyword; when i'm "out there" in the world (eg: commuting), i tend to "not look" at them (else, i'm afraid that they will think i'm needy/insecure) and even go as far as proactively ogling "men" (so as to make women think that I'm gay). crazy, isn't it?
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Jeff Grove, modified 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 10:16 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/24/11 10:16 PM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:
I had a friend allege that not doing it could allow one to automatically channel that sexual energy into other matters (which matter, for us, could be the actualism practice itself). I was skeptical, but now wondering if there is any truth to it.


Part of my neigong training required me to maintain celebacy for a long time as recommended by my teacher. The same training came from a monastic tradition but the reasons explained to me were not based on religious ideals.

There were notible differences when celibacy was maintained which definately influenced my progress within the aims of that schools teaching.

Do you need celibacy to progress with insight training - No

Can it be a useful tool creating conditions for further insight - Yes (specifically if involved in energy orientated practices)

The training was based on a taoist principle of gathering a substance until it reaches a critical threshold and then it changes



cheers
Jeff
Adam Bieber, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 12:48 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 12:43 AM

RE: Masturbation

Posts: 112 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
Sex, by itself, is a pleasurable bodily act. It is no different than taste or smell. Anything other than that physical feeling is hang ups (provided by survival instinct) to gently work through. An actual freedom is about full freedom, meaning you can do anything and be fully satisfied just as long as you keep sensuous attention and pure intent.

Oh, and I jerk off whenever I "feel" like it lol. Its a fun and enjoyable thing to do.
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 9:01 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 9:01 AM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

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Adam Bieber:
Sex, by itself, is a pleasurable bodily act. It is no different than taste or smell. Anything other than that physical feeling is hang ups (provided by survival instinct) to gently work through. An actual freedom is about full freedom, meaning you can do anything and be fully satisfied just as long as you keep sensuous attention and pure intent.

Oh, and I jerk off whenever I "feel" like it lol. Its a fun and enjoyable thing to do.


there is also the feeling of frustration (which i must investigate, for sure) with dho's endless forthcoming of "just keep sensuous attention and pure intent". not to disparage on anyone, but i just don't buy it.

what's the deal it? is it a remnant of the belief of 'choiceless awareness' or 'body scanning' or what?

you can't keep sensous attention when feelings take over the stage. whatever feeling/belief that is preventing fun/sensuosity must *first* be clearly seen for what it is - that it is silly - only *then* maybe is your advice applicable. (certain feelings/beliefs just won't go away until a considerable period of investigation)

by the way, yes, i know that sex by itself is a pleasurable act, and not something to be feared of.
Adam Bieber, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 9:23 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 9:23 AM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 112 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
when your attentive to the feeling, and neither expressing or repressing it, you are applying sensuous attention. you are not letting the feeling increase to cause greater sorrow or run your thoughts. All the questions you have, you should look up in the aft site. They are extremely helpful.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 10:30 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 10:30 AM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
harry has a good point. when you ask HAIETMOBA, it can go one of two ways: either attention is brought to a feeling, or there are no feelings and attention is brought to the experience (senses). if the former, you have to find some way, any way, of having that feeling subside. Either look at it as it is happening and figure it out (hard if you're caught up in it), or find any way to drop it until you get to the point when asking HAIETMOBA brings you to the senses, at which point you can either resume sensuousness, or go back and look at the feeling from a better point of view.

what i have done is i've done whatever i can to have the feeling go away and go back to the senses (which often involves just trying to be sensuous regardless of the feeling), and then i've kept running with the senses, not really investigating some stuff that should have been investigated.

but the goal is indeed non-stop sensuousness. and as you progress, even if feelings come up, it'll be more effective to just go back to the senses instead of figuring it out (that will be the figuring it out - 'oh, just back to sensuous delight!'; that won't work when there are tons of beliefs around though).

does that explain the insistence on sensuousness?
Adam Bieber, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 8:08 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 8:08 PM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

what i have done is i've done whatever i can to have the feeling go away and go back to the senses (which often involves just trying to be sensuous regardless of the feeling), and then i've kept running with the senses, not really investigating some stuff that should have been investigated.


Sensuousness may take care of the investigation itself without a questioning intellectual attention. Like "ah, that wind feels nice, i guess I was dreaming again, lets stick with this wind, its so much better". But then adding a bit more naiveté to that will lessen affect and increase felicity. Just food for thought.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 8:34 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/25/11 8:33 PM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

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Adam Bieber:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

what i have done is i've done whatever i can to have the feeling go away and go back to the senses (which often involves just trying to be sensuous regardless of the feeling), and then i've kept running with the senses, not really investigating some stuff that should have been investigated.


Sensuousness may take care of the investigation itself without a questioning intellectual attention. Like "ah, that wind feels nice, i guess I was dreaming again, lets stick with this wind, its so much better". But then adding a bit more naiveté to that will lessen affect and increase felicity. Just food for thought.


aye.. if that works, then that's all you need to do (hence, Harry Potter, emphasis on sensuousness). if an issue keeps coming up then you may need to think about it a little.

i heard it put this way: the trick is that the thinking about it is never what actually causes something to drop.. it's just the resolve to have it drop. if you can drop it for no reason in particular, then that's all you have to do. but the thinking might give you the resolve to allow it to drop.
Adam Bieber, modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 1:35 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 1:17 AM

RE: Masturbation -- The essence of doubt and honesty

Posts: 112 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
yea i agree, there are certain things you need to resolve to drop because they keep coming back. I went out last night, and it seemed like the masses talking and most relatively bored. I have a problem with wanting women. Wanting to pick them up, which many times does't happen. This wanting to pick up women's seems to be engrained in my blood (instinct). I don't even know what i'd be like to never want for women again, except in pce i guess.

Theres so much me still here, yet so much gone. So much I want to do yet those wants are the things that cause much sorrow. How can you not follow the masses? This is serious, how can you not follow the masses when its life, and life drags you along.

I know for a fact af is the route. A pce is constent perfection, delight, and wonder. But i am stopped continuously by the most minute items, except life is so much better. I want women, and there everywhere. Do I need to renounce women, not sex, but any desire for women period? Seems so. Renounce the idea of women? Do I need to renounce the future, any future. Do I need to renounce ambition? seems so but that all "I" know, thats all "I" am. Thats all we are as a society which I live in and others move about that way. To give it up, I want to, but its engrained it seems like. Its feels like only the strong survive.

Yes, these are doubts. must go back to the actual, ahh perfection. haha, felicity. Let me try to stay here but still that mean forgetting what I know, which I am ok with but takes practice.

Lets call it out now. Writing on dho, often comes with a fear. a fear that what you said is wrong, or will not effect another in the way you intend to. You leave dho with thoughts concerning whether or not your posts are correct or how they fit in? Why is that? It must be a need to belong but how do you disintegrate those thoughts. Not sure as of now, but its out there and "should" be addressed as an issue that occurs.

How do I get away from wanting women? How do I get away from feeling a need to do the activities that are part of my routine? This process is so intricate, and with the feeling of time involved, boy it can seem like forever. I must do it, drop it all?
I must drop it all that isn't actual and deal with the tones of affect interfering with the actual.
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 10:43 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 10:42 AM

RE: Masturbation -- The essence of doubt and honesty

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Adam Bieber:
Lets call it out now. Writing on dho, often comes with a fear. a fear that what you said is wrong, or will not effect another in the way you intend to. You leave dho with thoughts concerning whether or not your posts are correct or how they fit in? Why is that? It must be a need to belong but how do you disintegrate those thoughts. Not sure as of now, but its out there and "should" be addressed as an issue that occurs.


could it be related to impression management by the self?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impression_management

am "i" afraid of the possibility of appearing wrong, because of what would happen to the impression "others" have of "me"?

(a fun question -- how much of this impression management stuff is tied into semiconscious sexual strategies for attaining women?)
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#1 - 0, modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 4:54 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 4:54 PM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 104 Join Date: 8/8/10 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

i heard it put this way: the trick is that the thinking about it is never what actually causes something to drop.. it's just the resolve to have it drop. if you can drop it for no reason in particular, then that's all you have to do. but the thinking might give you the resolve to allow it to drop.



everyone please read this as many times as possible
issues themselves are all dualistic in a whole bunch of different ways. there's firstly the "i and the thing" duality - the feeling of a self participating in the issue, and the thing of concern. then there's the GoodBad - the good thing being the attachment, or "hook", or trigger that you purposely keep around even though it keeps attracting the bad aspect (the issue itself)

actualism's goal isn't to resolve all your issues logically, it's to resolve them actually, and the way to do that is to get in between the trigger and the issue and see where it comes together
Simon L, modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 5:07 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 5:07 PM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
God, this whole thread is humiliating.

The reluctance of letting go of sexual desire is the desire to have it.

This Harry Potter dude comes across or is under 23. Making a whole deal out of sex.

If he's older, he's just frustrated.

Get a grip man, it's just sex. If you've never had it, it may seem like this magical thing to you.

Instead of asking people how often the masturbate (really... you are asking me that??), focus on using the AF technique to get where you want to be.

Masturbation... geez. The moment I encounter an adult who can't control their sexual desires, I will punch them in the face.

Be a man for crying out loud!
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 6:03 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 6:03 PM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Simon L:
God, this whole thread is humiliating.

The reluctance of letting go of sexual desire is the desire to have it.

This Harry Potter dude comes across or is under 23. Making a whole deal out of sex.

If he's older, he's just frustrated.

Get a grip man, it's just sex. If you've never had it, it may seem like this magical thing to you.

Instead of asking people how often the masturbate (really... you are asking me that??), focus on using the AF technique to get where you want to be.

Masturbation... geez. The moment I encounter an adult who can't control their sexual desires, I will punch them in the face.

Be a man for crying out loud!


hehe.. to borrow your words: "Which part of the instructions said that you should get emotional about what other people are doing?"
Simon L, modified 12 Years ago at 8/27/11 7:39 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/27/11 7:39 AM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Simon L:
God, this whole thread is humiliating.

The reluctance of letting go of sexual desire is the desire to have it.

This Harry Potter dude comes across or is under 23. Making a whole deal out of sex.

If he's older, he's just frustrated.

Get a grip man, it's just sex. If you've never had it, it may seem like this magical thing to you.

Instead of asking people how often the masturbate (really... you are asking me that??), focus on using the AF technique to get where you want to be.

Masturbation... geez. The moment I encounter an adult who can't control their sexual desires, I will punch them in the face.

Be a man for crying out loud!


hehe.. to borrow your words: "Which part of the instructions said that you should get emotional about what other people are doing?"


Woops. Note to self: happy AND harmless. emoticon Got something to work on.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland, modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 8:47 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 8:46 PM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 296 Join Date: 9/5/10 Recent Posts
I don't know for sure what my intentions are here, but you are clearly projecting, Simon.

Even though you conclude that you would be humiliated, under 23, making a whole deal out of this, frustrated, have no grip (no pun intended), find sex "magical" and feel un-manly and angry by lack of control over sexual desires... even though you conclude that if you were expressing yourself like Harry Potter is doing here you would be all those things, Harry Potter, on the other hand, might have different motivations for expressing himself in this manner and may not at all be any of these things. And seeing just how clearly and composed he expresses himself regarding these things, it seems obvious to me that you are indeed projecting onto his behavior your own personal and social beliefs.

On topic: keep up the good observations! If you are really interested in trying to deconstruct the way you experience attraction to other women, I would suggest you get into some pick-up stuff. There's a big sub-culture out there with heaps of books to read, forums to browse and techniques to reverse engineer. Or you can just keep applying your method, seeing as this sub-culture wouldn't be anything if not a distraction ;)
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Nikolai , modified 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 8:55 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/26/11 8:55 PM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
The disharmony you’ve observed is the human condition, and it has ‘been there’ (naturally) since time immemorial. It is ‘both sides of this coin’ and the stress perceived to be between them as well … after all, ‘I’ am the ‘human condition’ and the ‘human condition’ is ‘me’.

What I once noticed was that when I held no allegiances, there was nothing to defend. With nothing to defend, I grew dispassionate. Without ally or enemy, the need for 'defense' born of fear and 'offense' born of aggression became utterly redundant. I dropped all 'my' armaments and became harmless … and a delicately sweet peace settled all about. Such is the result of a mind which refuses ill-will for any and every reason it can find; which may mean simply rejecting it by principle, or perhaps because of some specific reasoning.

So the notion about whether it ‘shouldn’t be there’ is beside the point, because it is already there. 'I' am both the 'offense' and 'defense', and it is because 'I' have chosen 'sides'. A more relevant question, then, may be: what am I going to do about it? Do 'I' dare care enough about ‘humanity’ to abandon it and all of the various divisions and groups that make it up? Trent

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1858627
Simon L, modified 12 Years ago at 8/27/11 7:41 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 8/27/11 7:41 AM

RE: Masturbation -- offtopic

Posts: 214 Join Date: 8/17/11 Recent Posts
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:
I don't know for sure what my intentions are here, but you are clearly projecting, Simon.

Even though you conclude that you would be humiliated, under 23, making a whole deal out of this, frustrated, have no grip (no pun intended), find sex "magical" and feel un-manly and angry by lack of control over sexual desires... even though you conclude that if you were expressing yourself like Harry Potter is doing here you would be all those things, Harry Potter, on the other hand, might have different motivations for expressing himself in this manner and may not at all be any of these things. And seeing just how clearly and composed he expresses himself regarding these things, it seems obvious to me that you are indeed projecting onto his behavior your own personal and social beliefs.

On topic: keep up the good observations! If you are really interested in trying to deconstruct the way you experience attraction to other women, I would suggest you get into some pick-up stuff. There's a big sub-culture out there with heaps of books to read, forums to browse and techniques to reverse engineer. Or you can just keep applying your method, seeing as this sub-culture wouldn't be anything if not a distraction ;)


Got something to work on. Thanks for steering me in the right direction.