RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

M, modified 4 Months ago.

Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 3/25/20 Recent Posts
I feel confused about how to apply meditative insights in my relationships and would really appreciate some guidance.

I repeatedly find myself getting upset by the same thing. If I feel like someone is brushing off my emotions, it triggers thoughts like "No one cares about me" and "They should take my emotions seriously".
 
Over the past few years, I've tried to deal with this by making concrete changes in my relationships. I've cultivated friendships with people who are genuinely kind. I've practiced Nonviolent Communication so that I can communicate with and empathize with others more effectively. I've learned to spot "red flags" that I used to ignore.
 
Yet, I still find myself getting upset by the same thing over and over and over again. I'm tired of suffering for the same reason. In the moments when it doesn't wreck me emotionally and make me feel sadness and fear about being alone in the world, it's such a repetitive thought that it can honestly get boring. 
 
On one level, I can see that this is a problem that is within my control to solve. Not by changing others, but by changing my own mind. If I didn't give as much weight to the thought "they should be acting differently", I'd almost definitely feel much better (shoutout to Byron Katie).
 
However, I worry that not taking this thought seriously would turn me into a pushover. I've struggled in the past with putting my own emotions on the backburner for the sake of others and have been trying not to do this. I know that addressing this thought more directly would benefit me, not just the people who don't want to do what I ask of them. But I still feel a resistance to becoming okay with what they're doing. I'm not entirely sure how to tell whether I'm primarily changing my relationship to my thoughts for their sake or for my own. I am also aware of the thought "It's bad to be a pushover" and am not sure how much weight to give to it.
 
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

Note: If anyone's interested in this topic, I'd recommend the Ram Dass Here and Now podcast Ep. 17 is on the Yoga of Relationships. It's excellent at characterizing the general issue but doesn't get much into how to practice this. 
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Helen Pohl, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon
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terry, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.

   I would guess M didn't have a sister.

   These conflicts are generally acted out and mastered in childhood and adolescence in a healthy family. Initital boundaries are set by the parents, such as "don't hit your sister." When children were asked what they most liked hearing their parents say to them, it was overwhelmingly something like "Tell your brother to come here right now!"

   Pathology enters in when we repress negative feelings towards our familial rivals for parental affection. The older child is no longer the baby, but he's big enough to beat on the littler one. Transpose this to adult relations and you have typical conflicts, rooted in childhood pathologies and emotional traumas. Some children survive poor parenting, while others resist even the best.

   Where the nuclear family has been atomized, poor parenting and subsequent conflict become the norm.

   (In noah's ark we enter two by two.)


terry
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 5303 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 



   when I lived in texas, it was safe to assume that any woman driving alone had a gun at least as close as the glove box...
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 



   when I lived in texas, it was safe to assume that any woman driving alone had a gun at least as close as the glove box...


and assuming such generalizations are likely true could save your life...
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 5303 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
terry:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.


Yeah, and when they do, people assume they are aggressive. No way to win. Still, I have often given this very advice and still do, because it really isn't about winning anyway. 

edited to add: It gets complicated when our own boundaries collide with accepting others as they are, I'll acknowledge that. In some cases, we humans just need to get over ourselves. Not all boundaries are worth the fuzz. They can also be traps for ourselves and make us miserable. Some boundaries are unreasonable as they expect the impossible and hence make others miserable. What is what can be a very relative and situated thing. Sometimes all people involved do their very best and it still doesn't work. I find it possible to accept and respect that and still take yourself out of the situation if you need to. I mean, I accept and respect wild tigers as they are, but I still don't want them in my livingroom, and it's probably better for everyone involved not to put them there. 



   when I lived in texas, it was safe to assume that any woman driving alone had a gun at least as close as the glove box...


and assuming such generalizations are likely true could save your life...

I do get what you mean. I have heard many women explain that even though they don't go around assuming that all men are abusive, they have no way of knowing which ones might be. Making generalizations can save their lives. It's nothing personal. And correspondingly, making the generalization that they might shoot you out of fear based on a misunderstanding, might also save your life. That's not personal either.

I would prefer to live in a world where acting out of fearful generalizations wouldn't make sense, but we are not quite there... 
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Helen Pohl, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
terry:
Helen Pohl:
If you set clear boundaries with people, and stand by them, no one will be able to push you around. 

It can be uncomfortable as hell at first when people react to your new behaviour, but it'll be worth it in the long run. emoticon

aloha helen,


   This is the practical solution for not being a pushover, as most women can tell us. Women are often assumed to be pushovers unless they insist on standing their ground.

   I would guess M didn't have a sister.

   These conflicts are generally acted out and mastered in childhood and adolescence in a healthy family. Initital boundaries are set by the parents, such as "don't hit your sister." When children were asked what they most liked hearing their parents say to them, it was overwhelmingly something like "Tell your brother to come here right now!"

   Pathology enters in when we repress negative feelings towards our familial rivals for parental affection. The older child is no longer the baby, but he's big enough to beat on the littler one. Transpose this to adult relations and you have typical conflicts, rooted in childhood pathologies and emotional traumas. Some children survive poor parenting, while others resist even the best.

   Where the nuclear family has been atomized, poor parenting and subsequent conflict become the norm.

   (In noah's ark we enter two by two.)


terry

Whoops, I missed your post it seems. 

I do feel it's true a lot of what we act out in adulthood has its roots in what we experienced as children. I know I learned some stuff from how my parents were and behaved in the world e g my feelings of not being important*. We internalize stuff before we can even put it into words. But seeing it means it has less power over me. I can choose how to relate to this, so I mostly think "oh, it's you again" and it loses its hold on me. 
Hopefully I, you and the OP will realize this more and more and become empowered. 

I can say a lot on this subject but I'm tired and my thoughts feel jumbled at the moment. >_<

*=though in some ways it's a relief being just anyone, not special, not important =)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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That's good stuff, Helen. 
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Chris Marti, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

How do you make others accommodate your feelings? And by "make" I mean force. Can you describe the process you have in mind? Also, how is making others responsible for your feelings going to help you to not be a pushover? Seems to me it's only going to expose you to more anxiety and potential manipulation by others.

I'm genuinely curious about how you see this working.

M, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 3/25/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
What's the balance between asking/wanting others to accommodate my feelings and taking responsibility for my own feelings?

How do you make others accommodate your feelings? And by "make" I mean force. Can you describe the process you have in mind? Also, how is making others responsible for your feelings going to help you to not be a pushover? Seems to me it's only going to expose you to more anxiety and potential manipulation by others.

I'm genuinely curious about how you see this working.

I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

I'm basically thinking of the process of standing up for myself. For example, if I friend says he'll call me back but doesn't, I can say something like "When you didn't call me back even though you said you would, I felt hurt. Could you please not say you'll do things if you're not going to follow through?" But then if the friend does it repeatedly, even after saying he won't, I feel stuck. And that's when I wonder -- do I keep bringing up the same thing? Or do I adjust so that it doesn't irritate me to the same degree or lead me into a spiral of thoughts about how inconsiderate my friend is and how little he cares about me? Or do I walk away from the relationship, at least temporarily until I can be in it without being upset? 

I don't want to make others fully responsible for my feelings, but I do want them to take my feelings into account. Maybe that is making others responsible for them - I'm not sure. And yes, you're right that this causes me anxiety. I'm curious how you see it contributing to manipulation as well?

Does that answer your questions? 
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Chris Marti, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
Agreed. This issue is a much better fit for therapy. As a general rule, I would say that if the issue involves relationships, it is not a dharma problem.The fact that you are getting triggered by the same pattern over and over again suggests that there is something deeper that needs to be addressed. I'm currently working through some similar stuff and my therapist has recommended inner child work. I'm starting with this:

https://www.johnbradshaw.com/books/homecoming-reclaiming-and-healing-your-inner-child

No experience with it yet, but my therapist is excellent, so I'm going in with a certain degree of confidence. I'll report back once I have more to say.
M, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 3/25/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.
agnostic, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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I think you could probably benefit from some good therapy (like many of us emoticon) but there's also a dharmic perspective on your problem which may be helpful - in terms of elements and realms. Your need for others to constantly recognize your feelings is earth element - a need for emotional security due to the neglect (void element) you suffered as a child. This has plunged you into the hungry ghost realm - an insatiable need for emotional reciprocation from others, a need to "control" or "comply" as you say.

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here, which is that in general it's a bad idea to expect other people to care about your feelings per se unless you fill some complementary emotional need for them. Your flaky friend who never calls back actually cares about your feelings very much, but from the opposite perspective - the water element - his reaction is reckless disregard in response to feeling threatened by your neediness. The two of your are locked in a kharmic embrace where your neediness and his recklessness are feeding off each other. We've all had friends who care about us less than we care about them, but we tolerate this for a while because they offer some other benefit (charisma, status, beauty, excitement etc.) Eventually we get tired of giving or needing, stop calling and drift apart. Others are right to point out that your dynamic is unlikely to change within this relationship at this time. My father had a needy relationship for a couple of years with a girl when he was 19, she reached out 30 years later, they got back together for a few years and split up again for exactly the same reason.

You might actually find someone who appears to care
deeply about your emotions, but they could be acting
our their own neediness. We've all seen couples who are totally devoted to each other to the exclusion of everyone else - that's not healthy either and doesn't end well. One dies before the other and the survivor's world comes to and end, or else they have kids and suddenly the woman cares more about the child and the man feels totally abandoned, or else they keep feeding off each other and ignore the kids which fucks them up.
 
The dharmic solution is to go straight to the source and examine your earth element reaction and hungry ghost realm. You meditate on that feeling of neediness, that need for emotional security, and see how it leeds you into insatiable feeding on others who can't reciprocate. This can be hard to do because the neediness may appear to get worse at first as you bring it under the spotlight of awareness. The reaction pattern will literally fight for survival as its viewed as a core part of "who you are" coming under threat. That's why it could be helpful to have a good therapist or teacher. You could start with the books Wake Up To Your Life (Chapter 5) and Spectrum Of Ecstasy to get an idea of what's involved and what kind of support you might need. But eventually you will learn to see how the thing works in real time and be liberated from being compelled to behave in the same pre-conditioned way.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.
agnostic, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Yes Chapter 5 of Wake Up To Your Life is called Karma and Dismantling Belief and describes how the 6 realms and 5 elements operate. Chapter 6 is called Dismantling Reactive Emotions and shows you how to transform the reactive emotions and empty the realms.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Cool. It's on hold.
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terry, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Brandon Dayton:
Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.


nobody is better on the six realms than trungpa...have you tried "the myth of freedom"?

t
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Brandon Dayton, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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terry:
Brandon Dayton:
Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.


nobody is better on the six realms than trungpa...have you tried "the myth of freedom"?

t

I'll add that to my list. I've got Transcending Madness on queue too.
agnostic, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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I really like choggy's writing, but sometimes I wonder about taking advice on "basic sanity" from someone who drank themselves to death! Is that judgemental of me? emoticon
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Siavash, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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I'd sometimes prefer to take advice on sanity from the insane who has lost their life to their inssnity, because they know how to lose it, they know what makes you lose it, they were insane and crazy enough to go close enough, others, they didn't dare it.
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terry, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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agnostic:
I really like choggy's writing, but sometimes I wonder about taking advice on "basic sanity" from someone who drank themselves to death! Is that judgemental of me? emoticon


yes


the most fucked up people give the best advice
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terry, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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terry:
agnostic:
I really like choggy's writing, but sometimes I wonder about taking advice on "basic sanity" from someone who drank themselves to death! Is that judgemental of me? emoticon


yes


the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.
agnostic, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

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agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?

Lol, I have no idea. I have only met a small fraction of them, and even for that group I find that they are much too complex for any generalizations to be made that would be even remotely fair. Also, I'm not convinced that the gender axis is as much of a natural divider as many people seem to think. 
agnostic, modified 3 Months ago.

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I'm pretty sure the gender axis is whatever we think it is.
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?

Lol, I have no idea. I have only met a small fraction of them, and even for that group I find that they are much too complex for any generalizations to be made that would be even remotely fair. Also, I'm not convinced that the gender axis is as much of a natural divider as many people seem to think. 


undivided is unconquered, the tai chi

(two by two)

there is no more natural divider in all of nature, yang and yin:
the mainspring of life

eros makes the world go round - the original greek god(dess) was an androgyne

freud discovered that we are all essentially bisexual,
that gender roles are assigned independently of sexuality,
and that we all resist these assignments to greater or lesser degree...


love and attraction are not two


terry



(mouse said this in the matrix)


"To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
—Bertrand Russell
agnostic, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?

Lol, I have no idea. I have only met a small fraction of them, and even for that group I find that they are much too complex for any generalizations to be made that would be even remotely fair. Also, I'm not convinced that the gender axis is as much of a natural divider as many people seem to think. 


undivided is unconquered, the tai chi

(two by two)

there is no more natural divider in all of nature, yang and yin:
the mainspring of life

eros makes the world go round - the original greek god(dess) was an androgyne

freud discovered that we are all essentially bisexual,
that gender roles are assigned independently of sexuality,
and that we all resist these assignments to greater or lesser degree...


love and attraction are not two


terry



(mouse said this in the matrix)


"To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human."
—Bertrand Russell

Zeroth fetter: being sure about your sexuality.
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


most men lack the courage, not to mention the insight...


whippersnapper...


(wink)


(in hawaii we opine about race too, and tell blonde jokes...)


t


t
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

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terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 5303 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I just thought that Helen skillfully brings up good points in a pedagogical way. I didn't think of it as gendered.

I don't feel like I'm qualified to judge what is worst. I'm ambivalent about generalizations about groups such as gender. They can oppress and they can make oppression visible. Sometimes it's hard to tell what is what, and it can be both at the same time. The way it's all entangled feels yucky to me. That doesn't make it okay to project my yuckiness on others. 

For what it's worth, I'm sorry for laughing. I just felt relieved at the time to get the opportunity to problematize generalizations in a joking manner, because they so often make me feel uncomfortable. You seem to enjoy the tough love kind of humor, so I didn't think much about it, but I really don't like making jokes at someone's expense and it wasn't fair. My appologies. 
agnostic, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1507 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....
agnostic, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1507 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
agnostic:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....

Oh yeah and start replying to myself. God that feels good
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
agnostic:
agnostic:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....

Oh yeah and start replying to myself. God that feels good


tao te ching, trans yutang


28. KEEPING TO THE FEMALE

He who is aware of the Male
But keeps to the Female
   Becomes the ravine of the world.
Being the ravine of the world,
   He has the original character (teh) which is not cut up.
   And returns again to the (innocence of the) babe.

He who is conscious of the white (bright)
But keeps to the black (dark)
   Becomes the model for the world.
Being the model for the world,
   He has the eternal power which never errs,
   And returns again to the Primordial Nothingness.

He who is familiar with honor and glory
But keeps to obscurity
   Becomes the valley of the world.
Being the valley of the world,
   He has an eternal power which always suffices,
   And returns again to the natural integrity of uncarved wood.

Break up this uncarved wood
   And it is shaped into vessel
In the hands of the Sage
   They become the officials and magistrates.
   Therefore the great ruler does not cut up.
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
agnostic:
agnostic:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


love it when men generalize about men generalizing...

lol...
Exactly what did he generalize, though? I only saw him implicitly make the point that in actual cases where he sees a man talk about what "most women" are like, he can't help thinking that maybe it might be good to keep in mind that they lack both the insider's perspective and sufficient data. Did he touch a nerve? *wink* 


   I took it as mindless political correctness reflexively used to discourage the assertion of generalities regardless of their truth.

   Is it any better that a man assert what most men are like, as george implicitly does? 

   We've spoken about boundaries before, you and I. It was notable that in a discussion of being a pushover only helen raised the issue of setting boundaries to avoid being pushed over, which I thought was the "obvious" solution, and said so.

   Yeah, george can get on my nerves, if he really wants to. At least until I catch on.

"wink"


terry

That's the first time anyone has accused me of being politically correct. Thanks for the compliment.

I definitely didn't say anything about what most men are like, although I can see why you might want to see it that way.

I could get used to this habit of yours of replying with quote to everything. It feels so masculine to be able to occupy so much of the territory in the thread at the click of a button. Just gotta find me some long quotes from the chinese scriptures now ....

Oh yeah and start replying to myself. God that feels good


tao te ching, trans yutang


28. KEEPING TO THE FEMALE

He who is aware of the Male
But keeps to the Female
   Becomes the ravine of the world.
Being the ravine of the world,
   He has the original character (teh) which is not cut up.
   And returns again to the (innocence of the) babe.

He who is conscious of the white (bright)
But keeps to the black (dark)
   Becomes the model for the world.
Being the model for the world,
   He has the eternal power which never errs,
   And returns again to the Primordial Nothingness.

He who is familiar with honor and glory
But keeps to obscurity
   Becomes the valley of the world.
Being the valley of the world,
   He has an eternal power which always suffices,
   And returns again to the natural integrity of uncarved wood.

Break up this uncarved wood
   And it is shaped into vessel
In the hands of the Sage
   They become the officials and magistrates.
   Therefore the great ruler does not cut up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvM7AWxk1Ng
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts




from "all the world n icon" by tom cheetham





“Poets and troubadours speak out of love, and out of soul. Every creative act comes out of darkness and requires us to stand on the edge of the unknown, the edge of chaos. That place of unknowing is sacred. It is sacred because we know we may pay for the privilege of standing there with our blood. Every creative act is a risk. It entails a willingness to sacrifice who we think we are and what we think we know. Each creative act is a wager on the existence of something not yet brought into being. The act of creation, like the longing of love, depends on a faith in the Angel out ahead and the dark opening that She creates and into which we are struggling to move. Creation is born of love and longing, and love is always paired with pain. Loving provides the energy for creation because the longing for that figure of beauty pulls us into the void that opens in Her absence. Sometimes we feel only the void and the pain. Every creative act is a prayer born of the longing to fill that emptiness. Henry Corbin teaches us that “prayer is not a request for something: it is the expression of a mode of being, a means of existing and of causing to exist.” It is the attempt to fill that pregnant darkness. Corbin says “Prayer is the highest form, the supreme act of the Creative Imagination.” Longing and nostalgia are the energy of ta’wil, the energy of prayer—they draw the soul through the darkness and toward the flame.

To speak the language of the Angels, to recover the lost speech, requires of us that our words be born anew, like Aphrodite rising from the sea. The creative moment of ta’wil means speaking out of love—words come up dripping out of the dark and are offered in sacrifice in the presence of that distant Angel who keeps us always at sea, always in the dark, and always loving.”
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
agnostic:
I love it when men opine on what "most women" are like. Linda, just for a change of perspective, please can you tell us what most men are like?


just to be clear, bra, you missed the original joke, which was the truism that you are a pushover if you don't stand up for yourself...


if you don't see a joke in something I have said, you probably just didn't get it...


(wink)
Tim Farrington, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.

I'd say it's the fourth horse, with flesh laid open to the bone. He's the one that knows for sure that fucker with the whip is serious.
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.

I'd say it's the fourth horse, with flesh laid open to the bone. He's the one that knows for sure that fucker with the whip is serious.


suzuki roshi used to say that we're all the worst horse...

(whip? what whip? oh, that whip...) auwe!
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terry, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
terry:

the most fucked up people give the best advice


   The buddha has a parable about four horses, The best horse runs when he sees the shadow of the whip, the second best when he sees the whip, the third when he feels the whip, and the worst horse when the whip lays his flesh open to the bone.

   The whip being the dharma, which horse do you think would offer the best advice?


I can’t help but thinking that it’s situated. The horse that is most prone to run away from shadows can probably give great advice about which shadows are really not worth the effort of running from. The horse that gets beaten can probably convincingly encourage others to run. We are all fucked up, but in different ways.


enlightenment is knowing we are all perfect
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Brandon Dayton, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 451 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
Stories of his succesor are even worse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sel_Tendzin
agnostic, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1507 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Clearly he forgot the first rule of Lama Club: don't choose your dharma successor when you are wasted.
Tim Farrington, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
I thought the first rule of Lama Club was "Never talk about Lama Club."
agnostic, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1507 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Lama club, what lama club?
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terry, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
terry:
Brandon Dayton:
Agnostic -- all good stuff there. Maybe I was a bit absolutist in my response. I think it's about time for me to read some Ken Mcleod. Does Waking Up To Your Life cover the 6 realms stuff? I'm just finishing Chogyam Trungpa's Spiritual Materialism and am "hungry" for some more 6 realms material.


nobody is better on the six realms than trungpa...have you tried "the myth of freedom"?

t

I'll add that to my list. I've got Transcending Madness on queue too.


trifecta
M, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 3/25/20 Recent Posts
agnostic:
I think you could probably benefit from some good therapy (like many of us emoticon) but there's also a dharmic perspective on your problem which may be helpful - in terms of elements and realms. Your need for others to constantly recognize your feelings is earth element - a need for emotional security due to the neglect (void element) you suffered as a child. This has plunged you into the hungry ghost realm - an insatiable need for emotional reciprocation from others, a need to "control" or "comply" as you say.

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here, which is that in general it's a bad idea to expect other people to care about your feelings per se unless you fill some complementary emotional need for them. Your flaky friend who never calls back actually cares about your feelings very much, but from the opposite perspective - the water element - his reaction is reckless disregard in response to feeling threatened by your neediness. The two of your are locked in a kharmic embrace where your neediness and his recklessness are feeding off each other. We've all had friends who care about us less than we care about them, but we tolerate this for a while because they offer some other benefit (charisma, status, beauty, excitement etc.) Eventually we get tired of giving or needing, stop calling and drift apart. Others are right to point out that your dynamic is unlikely to change within this relationship at this time. My father had a needy relationship for a couple of years with a girl when he was 19, she reached out 30 years later, they got back together for a few years and split up again for exactly the same reason.

You might actually find someone who appears to care
deeply about your emotions, but they could be acting
our their own neediness. We've all seen couples who are totally devoted to each other to the exclusion of everyone else - that's not healthy either and doesn't end well. One dies before the other and the survivor's world comes to and end, or else they have kids and suddenly the woman cares more about the child and the man feels totally abandoned, or else they keep feeding off each other and ignore the kids which fucks them up.
 
The dharmic solution is to go straight to the source and examine your earth element reaction and hungry ghost realm. You meditate on that feeling of neediness, that need for emotional security, and see how it leeds you into insatiable feeding on others who can't reciprocate. This can be hard to do because the neediness may appear to get worse at first as you bring it under the spotlight of awareness. The reaction pattern will literally fight for survival as its viewed as a core part of "who you are" coming under threat. That's why it could be helpful to have a good therapist or teacher. You could start with the books Wake Up To Your Life (Chapter 5) and Spectrum Of Ecstasy to get an idea of what's involved and what kind of support you might need. But eventually you will learn to see how the thing works in real time and be liberated from being compelled to behave in the same pre-conditioned way.
I've been trying to do something similar to what you describe in your last paragraph. Would you mind being a bit more precise? When you talk about meditating on the feeling, what does that look like for you? Is it more cognitive or focused on body sensations? 

What you said about finding someone who appears to care about my emotions but is acting out of their own neediness was really interesting. Good to remember that having someone care about my emotions isn't the be-all-end-all it sometimes seems to be. 

Can you clarify what you mean when you say friends should fill complementary emotional needs? I'm not sure I see how this fits with what you wrote about earth and water. 

And you'll be glad to hear I have a therapist. emoticon
agnostic, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 1507 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
M:
agnostic:
I think you could probably benefit from some good therapy (like many of us emoticon) but there's also a dharmic perspective on your problem which may be helpful - in terms of elements and realms. Your need for others to constantly recognize your feelings is earth element - a need for emotional security due to the neglect (void element) you suffered as a child. This has plunged you into the hungry ghost realm - an insatiable need for emotional reciprocation from others, a need to "control" or "comply" as you say.

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here, which is that in general it's a bad idea to expect other people to care about your feelings per se unless you fill some complementary emotional need for them. Your flaky friend who never calls back actually cares about your feelings very much, but from the opposite perspective - the water element - his reaction is reckless disregard in response to feeling threatened by your neediness. The two of your are locked in a kharmic embrace where your neediness and his recklessness are feeding off each other. We've all had friends who care about us less than we care about them, but we tolerate this for a while because they offer some other benefit (charisma, status, beauty, excitement etc.) Eventually we get tired of giving or needing, stop calling and drift apart. Others are right to point out that your dynamic is unlikely to change within this relationship at this time. My father had a needy relationship for a couple of years with a girl when he was 19, she reached out 30 years later, they got back together for a few years and split up again for exactly the same reason.

You might actually find someone who appears to care
deeply about your emotions, but they could be acting
our their own neediness. We've all seen couples who are totally devoted to each other to the exclusion of everyone else - that's not healthy either and doesn't end well. One dies before the other and the survivor's world comes to and end, or else they have kids and suddenly the woman cares more about the child and the man feels totally abandoned, or else they keep feeding off each other and ignore the kids which fucks them up.
 
The dharmic solution is to go straight to the source and examine your earth element reaction and hungry ghost realm. You meditate on that feeling of neediness, that need for emotional security, and see how it leeds you into insatiable feeding on others who can't reciprocate. This can be hard to do because the neediness may appear to get worse at first as you bring it under the spotlight of awareness. The reaction pattern will literally fight for survival as its viewed as a core part of "who you are" coming under threat. That's why it could be helpful to have a good therapist or teacher. You could start with the books Wake Up To Your Life (Chapter 5) and Spectrum Of Ecstasy to get an idea of what's involved and what kind of support you might need. But eventually you will learn to see how the thing works in real time and be liberated from being compelled to behave in the same pre-conditioned way.
I've been trying to do something similar to what you describe in your last paragraph. Would you mind being a bit more precise? When you talk about meditating on the feeling, what does that look like for you? Is it more cognitive or focused on body sensations? 

What you said about finding someone who appears to care about my emotions but is acting out of their own neediness was really interesting. Good to remember that having someone care about my emotions isn't the be-all-end-all it sometimes seems to be. 

Can you clarify what you mean when you say friends should fill complementary emotional needs? I'm not sure I see how this fits with what you wrote about earth and water. 

And you'll be glad to hear I have a therapist. emoticon

Meditating on the feeling is definitely body focused rather than cognitive. The brain and body are often saying completely different things. Your brain could be saying something like "I really think my friend should respect my feelings more according to my intellectual understanding of nonviolent communication", while the tension in your belly is screaming "I hate my friend, all I do is give give give and all he does is take take take, I want to kill him!"

Normally we think that ~90% of our experience is in the brain, but the cognitive brain developed relatively recently in our evolutionary history. It's more like the body is giving us 90% of our experience and cognition is mostly responding to those inputs. It's the same with communication - much more of the communication than we realize is via the body, tone, context etc. whilst much less that we think is in the words we actually use.

Your friend naturally picks up on your non-verbal communication and feels threatened by your aggression, which is why he doesn't call back. In elements practice this reaction is associated with the water element - trying to dissipate the energy of a perceived threat. His ignoring you makes you feel even more insignificant and powerless, so you respond by being even more rigid in your demands (earth element reaction). This in turn makes him feel even more threatened and so the two of you go on in your merry karmic dance. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned people filling complementary emotional needs. The emotional neglect you suffered in childhood inclines you towards neediness and demanding compliance from others. Maybe your friend had needy and demanding parents, so he finds such relationships familiar and comforting in a way. This would be how you fill each other's "needs", by mirroring each other's conditioning.

Once you train yourself to listen to what your body is telling you then you start to feel in realtime when you tense up and go into earth element mode, which prevents you from acting out on the reactive feeling. You stop making demands on your friend, he feels less threatened and maybe he feels it's safe to call you.

If you're not used to listening to what your body is saying then it can take a while to learn, which is what elements practice is all about really - a structured way of listening to your body.

What you said about finding someone who appears to care about my emotions but is acting out of their own neediness was really interesting. 

This is interesting! I was talking about people filling complementary emotional needs but you instinctively interpreted it as the neediness of others. Sorry to be blunt again, but it is YOUR neediness which is the issue here. "Should" is a very strong word and whenever you find yourself using it there is usually a strong desire to control people.
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Chris Marti, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 3862 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

I'm not telling anyone they can't discuss psychology, which is the study of human behavior, both conscious and unconscious. It's a huge area, obviously. Dharma practice is probably best described as the eightfold path. This, too, is a huge area of study but it typically centers on the investigation and potential reduction of suffering. There is some overlap.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 451 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
M:
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

Err on the side of asking the question. If you hadn't asked the question, no one would have made the distinction. The difference isn't always clear, and there's tons of overlap, so it's better just to ask your question and let everyone weigh in. 

This forum is specifically about dharma, but it's also about human development in general. It's a bunch of caring people trying to help each other live good lifes. It's also likely to be the best resource, outside of a therapist trained in pragmatic dharma and counseling, for discriminating between and incorporating the two modalities in a nuanced, thoughtful way.
Tim Farrington, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
M:
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

Err on the side of asking the question. If you hadn't asked the question, no one would have made the distinction. The difference isn't always clear, and there's tons of overlap, so it's better just to ask your question and let everyone weigh in. 

This forum is specifically about dharma, but it's also about human development in general. It's a bunch of caring people trying to help each other live good lifes. It's also likely to be the best resource, outside of a therapist trained in pragmatic dharma and counseling, for discriminating between and incorporating the two modalities in a nuanced, thoughtful way.
M, I think what Chris highlighted here in your language, the way you are framing your relationship questions and expectations, is that  to hope for "compliance" to an expectation you hold for a "good outcome" going into the interaction is a setup for failure and reeks of manipulation and the fantasy of some kind of passive-aggressive control. I think the Non-Violent Communication model often drifts into this territory in its emphasis on needs and techniques that are truly unwieldy in the normal flow of human interaction. It is an attempt to create a kind of hothouse for communication, special conditions, and if everyone involved is fluent and practiced in the model it may yield the occasional lovely orchid bloom. But for normal human weather it is a set-up for bad stuff. You responded with humor and appreciation to what Martin said above, about accepting weather as an analogy for taking what other people offer you in your interactions, and this is a much healthier and more viable ground to begin thinking about this stuff. Forget the rain dances and take what any given moment offers from the sky, and try to dress appropriately. Accepting the reality of weather is necessary to getting wiser about it. The weather is not going to comply with your wardrobe, no matter how nicely dressed up you may be. (And there is nothing so rare as a day in June, the air so fine and the blossoms all blue.)

It is really hard work to get this shit right. You are doing that work. I think you're in a phase of realizing at a whole new level just how deep the questions go, and how much work is involved. Accepting that, understanding the reality of the long haul and the perpetual baby steps, giving yourself the eternity necessary to get it right, can ease a lot of the misery. The rst of the misery is heart work, and it's the only game in town. So hang in there, my friend, and keep taking those baby steps. Everybody's a pilgrim here.

love, tim
M, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 22 Join Date: 3/25/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Brandon Dayton:
M:
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.
How are you distinguishing between the two? Asking so that I have a better sense of what types of things are seen as appropriate for this forum.

Err on the side of asking the question. If you hadn't asked the question, no one would have made the distinction. The difference isn't always clear, and there's tons of overlap, so it's better just to ask your question and let everyone weigh in. 

This forum is specifically about dharma, but it's also about human development in general. It's a bunch of caring people trying to help each other live good lifes. It's also likely to be the best resource, outside of a therapist trained in pragmatic dharma and counseling, for discriminating between and incorporating the two modalities in a nuanced, thoughtful way.
M, I think what Chris highlighted here in your language, the way you are framing your relationship questions and expectations, is that  to hope for "compliance" to an expectation you hold for a "good outcome" going into the interaction is a setup for failure and reeks of manipulation and the fantasy of some kind of passive-aggressive control. I think the Non-Violent Communication model often drifts into this territory in its emphasis on needs and techniques that are truly unwieldy in the normal flow of human interaction. It is an attempt to create a kind of hothouse for communication, special conditions, and if everyone involved is fluent and practiced in the model it may yield the occasional lovely orchid bloom. But for normal human weather it is a set-up for bad stuff. You responded with humor and appreciation to what Martin said above, about accepting weather as an analogy for taking what other people offer you in your interactions, and this is a much healthier and more viable ground to begin thinking about this stuff. Forget the rain dances and take what any given moment offers from the sky, and try to dress appropriately. Accepting the reality of weather is necessary to getting wiser about it. The weather is not going to comply with your wardrobe, no matter how nicely dressed up you may be. (And there is nothing so rare as a day in June, the air so fine and the blossoms all blue.)

It is really hard work to get this shit right. You are doing that work. I think you're in a phase of realizing at a whole new level just how deep the questions go, and how much work is involved. Accepting that, understanding the reality of the long haul and the perpetual baby steps, giving yourself the eternity necessary to get it right, can ease a lot of the misery. The rst of the misery is heart work, and it's the only game in town. So hang in there, my friend, and keep taking those baby steps. Everybody's a pilgrim here.

love, tim
I largely agree with what you said about Nonviolent Communication if you follow the exact "formula". However, the main thing I take from it is that it's important to empathize with others and with yourself before resolving any conflict and to avoid getting caught in who's "right" or "wrong". This doesn't require using rigid techniques. 

Your comment about rain dances made me chuckle. I feel like I've been doing metaphorical rain dances trying to get people to change, haha. 

In reading your last paragraph, it made me realize that I am in a bit of a rush. I feel like the amount of suffer doesn't match the reality of what I think I "should" be experiencing given the amount of work I've done on myself. But I will try to be patient. At least there are nuggets of success along the way to keep me motivated. 
Edward, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 83 Join Date: 6/10/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
I can't force others to accommodate my feelings. But I can request that they do so in a very nonconfrontational way that is more likely to make them comply (relative to screaming at them, for example) if they're receptive to my emotions to begin with. 

Your language reveals your purpose, i.e.; "comply."  Anyway, I think yours is a psychological issue, not a dharma issue.


Yup this is a dharma forum- not a place to discuss ethics:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/21727966#_19_message_21727431
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Ni Nurta, modified 4 Months ago.

RE: Will accepting people as they are turn me into a pushover?

Posts: 619 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
M:

I'm basically thinking of the process of standing up for myself. For example, if I friend says he'll call me back but doesn't, I can say something like "When you didn't call me back even though you said you would, I felt hurt. Could you please not say you'll do things if you're not going to follow through?" But then if the friend does it repeatedly, even after saying he won't, I feel stuck. And that's when I wonder -- do I keep bringing up the same thing? Or do I adjust so that it doesn't irritate me to the same degree or lead me into a spiral of thoughts about how inconsiderate my friend is and how little he cares about me? Or do I walk away from the relationship, at least temporarily until I can be in it without being upset?
Imho if you are to bring such topics this should be quickly mentioned with momentary stronger emphasis on it, like stronger angrier and obviously louder voice and then not go about saying things like "I felt hurt" but immediately go to completely different topic with friendly attitude so that they see you do not expect their response about them not calling but about this different topic and any response they give they give can embedd as part of talking about something else. It will make you look cool emoticon

Internally do the same. Though about someone doing somethign wrong should be strong and loud and directed at these peoople like they could somehow hear you and otherwise it should be short and lack all the following "I feel hurt" and all the other nonsense.

Other than that I do not understand what is the issue. Someone not calling you mean you have more time to watch Netflix/anime/YT or play computer games. Imgo win win win situation emoticon

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