Hello/Introduction and a Question about Concentration

Joshua David Lerner, modified 12 Years ago at 9/2/11 5:39 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/2/11 5:39 PM

Hello/Introduction and a Question about Concentration

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/30/11 Recent Posts
Hello,

My name is Josh, and this is my first post on this forum. I want to start by expressing my profound gratitude to Daniel for writing MCTB; I am almost done with it, and it has put the last 28 or so years of my life into perspective so that I feel for the first time that my meditative practices and experiences both make sense and actually *can* be integrated into a normal, conventionally successful life. I know he's heard this before, but I had so many "aha!" experiences reading it that is was almost distracting.

I'm not sure what the best sub-forum for this post is, either this one or the Diagnostic forum, so if it needs to be moved please feel free to do so.

I have so many questions to ask, but I'm afraid of them all coming out in a confused jumble, so I'll try to start simply. I'm also going to avoid the temptation to write out my whole meditative life story [edit: reading back through this entire post just now, I have failed to avoid this temptation; apologies in advance for a long self-involved post], so I'll just describe my main influences: the one book I read over and over for a while was Nisargadatta Maharaj's I Am That, to which I keep returning and which really seems to nail the core of the issue for me, Ramana Maharshi (my first big influence that came from a book), zazen, some Dzogchen teachings of the Namkhai Norbu flavor (mixed in with Daoist meditation; long story), Franklin Merrel-Wolff, and a few people who are probably not known on this forum such as Richard Rose. I have also found the techniques and outlook of Douglas Harding ("the Headless Way") to be profoundly useful and interesting.

The main question that I'll start with is whether or not mastering some of the basic concentration exercises are something that would be worthwhile for me to do. As I write that down, I realize how silly that sounds (how could that not be a good idea?). But I'll explain why I ask.

I guess I'll also explain what I understand to be my basic spiritual motivation, or at least what it feels like. The fact that I am aware has always been both intensely fascinating and mildly irritating to me, and I've always felt a need to explore and try to resolve the ever-present but subtle sense of tension I've felt. That's basically it. I've never been inspired to practice by ideas of compassion or suffering, so some of the Buddhist ways of discussing things leave me kind of cold. I say that having been in a Buddhist studies graduate program at one point (long story). The other thing about reading Buddhist texts that made my eyes glaze over is the lists. The endless lists. I have a copy of Nyanaponika Thera's The Heart of Buddhist Meditation, which I always loved and sensed great value in, but simply could not get past the lists.

Over the years, I've basically been drawn to focusing my attention on the sense "I am", as Nisargadatta's logic, as I understand it, always made sense to me - the "I am" is also just another object in awareness, but it is the most primal one, and is closest in some paradoxical sense to the center of awareness, so it can serve as the doorway through which you pass. I've spent years going through stages that alternate between a) meditating by trying to sink down through that sensation and b) avoiding doing so by either not meditating for weeks or months at a time or by meditating more on the qualities of the field of experience (with some of Douglas Harding's exercises and some techniques that I cobbled together from various Daoist and Dzogchen sources).

But one thing I've never really done is consistent, formal concentration practice. I have tried both Tibetan and Shingon variations of staring at the "A" syllable, but I would keep turning my attention back into itself out of habit, so I never got any of the basic experiences that mark the stages of progress with that practice. As an acupuncturist and martial artist, I've done many, many styles of qigong that involved basic concentration practices, but they always left me irritable and tight. And reading through MCTB impressed upon me the presence of an entire realm of meditative experiences that seem like they should form the basic foundation of more advanced techniques, but which I've never really gone through.

One of the points I found heartening in MCTB (read: one of the points that helped me rationalize not having gone through consistent concentration practices) is that insight practice will also develop concentration, so I think that in some sense the concentration axis of development has to have been developing at least to some degree. But I'm not sure.

In terms of the stages of progress, it feels like I've been fluctuating between A&P and the dark night for decades. There was a point, probably about ten years ago, when I crossed some subtle threshhold and meditation in general became much easier and consistent for me, and I've had many transient experiences that seem to correlate with many of the higher stages, but they have all been temporary and minor and vague, so I'll write them off as variations of A&P. There are certain basic meditative states that I know I can achieve fairly easily by just thinking about them, and when I sit formally for meditation I do go through a very consistent series of stages for the first 10-30 minutes before I settle down and can choose to direct my attention in one of various ways to produce certain results such as either an awareness of all of my experience as a three dimensional mental space, an awareness of how time feels like it is flowing through what appears to be the present moment, or a very dissociating and disorienting experience of almost falling down/backwards through the sense of "I am" but popping back up out of it due to abject terror. The usual A&P stuff, if I am reading MCTB and this forum correctly.

So - would it be to my advantage to lay off the more abstract stuff and spend some time (weeks? months?) developing basic concentration skills, or do I just need to do what I've been doing, just with more consistency and determination? I will say that I am leaning towards the latter, about 60/40, more since reading MCTB has given me the ability to start paying attention to the dark stuff in the same way I pay attention to objects of meditation, which has left me feeling much lighter and willing to continue with those practices that have historically left me feeling exhausted, depressed, unwilling to deal with the world, irritated or dissociated. But I am definitely willing to try to go back to square one and stare at something for a while, or do nothing more than something like a noting practice, if more experienced people think it would be helpful for me. I have in fact found myself, since reading MCTB, using noting a lot when going around in daily life, so I guess in a sense I have already started going back to basics in one sense. But I'm really asking more about formal meditation practices.

Thanks to you all for providing this forum!

Josh
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 9/3/11 1:50 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/3/11 1:50 AM

RE: Hello/Introduction and a Question about Concentration

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi Joshua,

I've read through your Introduction and questions, and at first decided that there was nothing here for me to comment on. It seems obvious from what you've written here that you've been influenced by many and diverse sources, but not by the original source. Perhaps all the other sources you've been reading and been struck by have so influenced you that you miss the simplicity of what Gotama was endeavoring to teach. So, it troubled me that I would just be wasting my time to comment. I overcame those thoughts and decided that perhaps just commenting with some of the thoughts that occurred to me as I read through your description might prove to be thought-provoking for you anyway. So, whether you take them seriously or not is up to you.

Joshua David Lerner:

...so I'll just describe my main influences: the one book I read over and over for a while was Nisargadatta Maharaj's I Am That, to which I keep returning and which really seems to nail the core of the issue for me, Ramana Maharshi (my first big influence that came from a book), zazen, some Dzogchen teachings of the Namkhai Norbu flavor (mixed in with Daoist meditation; long story), Franklin Merrel-Wolff, and a few people who are probably not known on this forum such as Richard Rose. I have also found the techniques and outlook of Douglas Harding ("the Headless Way") to be profoundly useful and interesting.

You've listed quite a few contemporary personages here but not a word about the Buddha! Have you ever tried to read and understand any of the original teachings from the translated discourses? ( I recommend the Wisdom Publication editions over any of the online versions. Although the online versions such as those found at accesstoinsight.org can be a helpful adjunct to the printed editions mentioned previously.) Have you ever gone to the horses' mouth and spent some time there to see what he had to say and teach rather than reading about what others have decided he was teaching?

Joshua David Lerner:

The main question that I'll start with is whether or not mastering some of the basic concentration exercises are something that would be worthwhile for me to do. As I write that down, I realize how silly that sounds (how could that not be a good idea?). But I'll explain why I ask.

It sounds as though you have much of the basics down regarding concentration. My concern for you from what you've written here is what you're doing with the concentration you've already developed and which direction it is leading. With the influences that you have mentioned, it seems you are being lead away from what Gotama taught. Or at the very least are not being lead to understand what he taught in the way he taught it.

Joshua David Lerner:

I guess I'll also explain what I understand to be my basic spiritual motivation, or at least what it feels like. The fact that I am aware has always been both intensely fascinating and mildly irritating to me, and I've always felt a need to explore and try to resolve the ever-present but subtle sense of tension I've felt. That's basically it.

Aware of what? Do you mean "aware" of phenomena in general? Or were you referring to "the ever-present but subtle sense of tension." If so, tension of what? It isn't clear here what you are trying to say, and I'm just seeking some clarification.

Joshua David Lerner:

I've never been inspired to practice by ideas of compassion or suffering, so some of the Buddhist ways of discussing things leave me kind of cold. I say that having been in a Buddhist studies graduate program at one point (long story). The other thing about reading Buddhist texts that made my eyes glaze over is the lists. The endless lists. I have a copy of Nyanaponika Thera's The Heart of Buddhist Meditation, which I always loved and sensed great value in, but simply could not get past the lists.

Yes, the metta meditations and such are not for everyone (myself included). They don't, in themselves, seem to lead to the direct path of realization in the same way that satipatthana practice does. So, I concur with you on that point.

What lists are you talking about in Nyanaponika's ground-breaking book? Or are you just mentioning the idea of lists in general without meaning to associate them with the book? At any rate, if the lists bother you (as they did me) just forget about them, and they will resolve themselves in due course if you follow the instruction given in the discourses. They're really just a teaching tool that others have found important to emphasize. But what is really important about them is being able to make them out from one's own experience of them (i.e. knowing them from direct experience rather than just rote memory and recital). Otherwise, they can seem to be a bit distant and overwhelming on the surface.

Joshua David Lerner:

Over the years, I've basically been drawn to focusing my attention on the sense "I am", as Nisargadatta's logic, as I understand it, always made sense to me - the "I am" is also just another object in awareness, but it is the most primal one, and is closest in some paradoxical sense to the center of awareness, so it can serve as the doorway through which you pass.

The problem here is that Nisargadatta is not teaching what Gotama taught. Plain and simple. I've read some of his writings, and I know it sounds good and it feels right. But it isn't what Gotama taught at all. And I'm not sure how you can disavow yourself of these ideas much beyond penetrating the truth that Gotama taught and seeing the differences for yourself.

Joshua David Lerner:

But one thing I've never really done is consistent, formal concentration practice. I have tried both Tibetan and Shingon variations of staring at the "A" syllable, but I would keep turning my attention back into itself out of habit, so I never got any of the basic experiences that mark the stages of progress with that practice.

You might benefit from attempting to learn the practice of the samatha jhanas. If you've never experienced the pleasantness of deep concentration and how that helps to recondition the mind's ability to maintain stability and mindfulness, then this might be something you may wish to look into. Just a forewarning, though. It can be a bit tricky to learn about without having someone experienced to bounce ideas off. In other words, it's best done with an experienced teacher at hand who can help you make sense of what it is that you are experiencing.

Joshua David Lerner:

As an acupuncturist and martial artist, I've done many, many styles of qigong that involved basic concentration practices, but they always left me irritable and tight. And reading through MCTB impressed upon me the presence of an entire realm of meditative experiences that seem like they should form the basic foundation of more advanced techniques, but which I've never really gone through.

The kind of concentration that martial artists and chi gong practitioners seek to develop is similar though a bit different than what one endeavors to develop practicing the meditation techniques that Gotama teaches in the discourses. And yes, you are correct in your assumption that concentration in the way that Gotama advised and taught does form "a basic foundation for more advanced" practice. That practice being the practice of satipatthana.

Joshua David Lerner:

There are certain basic meditative states that I know I can achieve fairly easily by just thinking about them, and when I sit formally for meditation I do go through a very consistent series of stages for the first 10-30 minutes before I settle down and can choose to direct my attention in one of various ways to produce certain results such as either an awareness of all of my experience as a three dimensional mental space, an awareness of how time feels like it is flowing through what appears to be the present moment, or a very dissociating and disorienting experience of almost falling down/backwards through the sense of "I am" but popping back up out of it due to abject terror.

That first statement is a sign of developed concentration. This is good! Whenever you can get to a place (meditatively speaking, that is) just by thinking of it, that's always a good sign. This is why I stated above that you seem to have good concentration abilities already. But perhaps they need to be refined. Or at the very least perhaps some of the conclusions being drawn from such practice might need to be looked at from a different perspective. One that would not leave one feeling "abject terror."

Joshua David Lerner:

So - would it be to my advantage to lay off the more abstract stuff and spend some time (weeks? months?) developing basic concentration skills, or do I just need to do what I've been doing, just with more consistency and determination? I will say that I am leaning towards the latter, about 60/40, more since reading MCTB has given me the ability to start paying attention to the dark stuff in the same way I pay attention to objects of meditation, which has left me feeling much lighter and willing to continue with those practices that have historically left me feeling exhausted, depressed, unwilling to deal with the world, irritated or dissociated. But I am definitely willing to try to go back to square one and stare at something for a while, or do nothing more than something like a noting practice, if more experienced people think it would be helpful for me. I have in fact found myself, since reading MCTB, using noting a lot when going around in daily life, so I guess in a sense I have already started going back to basics in one sense. But I'm really asking more about formal meditation practices.

I would suggest a combination of the two approaches. The first being to gain a bit more appreciation for the simple basics of watching the breath and what happens there, while being aware of the mental phenomena that takes place simultaneously. Although moreso focused on the pleasantness of the breath and the simplicity of the instruction given in discourses such as either of the two Satipatthana Suttas (Majjhima Nikaya 10 and Digha Nikaya 22) or the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). This would help you to begin making some sense out of the instructions given in satipatthana practice itself.

While Nyanaponika's book above is very good and useful for accomplishing certain things, and I certainly recommend you're reading and contemplating it further, Ven. Analayo's book Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization picks up where Nyanaponika's book leaves off, taking you the rest of the way to awakening.

If this commentary leaves you feeling somewhat confused and bemused, then ignore it. If you keep practicing you may eventually come to see some sense in it.

All the best,
Ian
Joshua David Lerner, modified 12 Years ago at 9/3/11 2:58 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/3/11 2:58 AM

RE: Hello/Introduction and a Question about Concentration

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/30/11 Recent Posts
Hi Ian,

First off, I want to thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully.

Ian And:
You've listed quite a few contemporary personages here but not a word about the Buddha! Have you ever tried to read and understand any of the original teachings from the translated discourses? ( I recommend the Wisdom Publication editions over any of the online versions. Although the online versions such as those found at accesstoinsight.org can be a helpful adjunct to the printed editions mentioned previously.) Have you ever gone to the horses' mouth and spent some time there to see what he had to say and teach rather than reading about what others have decided he was teaching?


It has been a long time since I read any primary Buddhist material, and I appreciated your suggestion enough to order a copy of The Connected Discourses of the Buddha from Amazon.

Ian And:
Aware of what? Do you mean "aware" of phenomena in general? Or were you referring to "the ever-present but subtle sense of tension." If so, tension of what? It isn't clear here what you are trying to say, and I'm just seeking some clarification.


Aware of phenomenon in general - the fact that all of these phenomena keep manifesting within this field of awareness that seems to be aware of itself. The tension is, I think, related to the paradoxical quality of being aware of being aware, a type of cognitive dissonance. There is also a tension between the awareness of the three dimensional quality of awareness, which gives the sensation of being a field of awareness within which thoughts and sensations and phenomena occur, and the localized quality of awareness that gives the sensation of being located in an impossible to find central location of my body, looking outward.

Ian And:

What lists are you talking about in Nyanaponika's ground-breaking book? Or are you just mentioning the idea of lists in general without meaning to associate them with the book?


Picking up the book again, I realize "lists" was not a good choice of words. I was referring to the very repetitive language used in Buddhist writings in general; when reading his book, I would often go to the translation of the Maha satipatthana sutta and start reading, only to start skipping over whole paragraphs when they seem to have been cut and paste with changes of one or two words. "When X is present in him, the monk knows 'there is X in me'. He knows how X comes to be; he knows how the rejection of the arisen X comes to be, and he knows how the non-arising in the future of X comes to be." Repeated over and over, substituting for X, just makes me lose interest. I realize that it's my problem, though, so you've inspired me to give it another chance.

Ian And:

I would suggest a combination of the two approaches. The first being to gain a bit more appreciation for the simple basics of watching the breath and what happens there, while being aware of the mental phenomena that takes place simultaneously. Although moreso focused on the pleasantness of the breath and the simplicity of the instruction given in discourses such as either of the two Satipatthana Suttas (Majjhima Nikaya 10 and Digha Nikaya 22) or the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). This would help you to begin making some sense out of the instructions given in satipatthana practice itself.

While Nyanaponika's book above is very good and useful for accomplishing certain things, and I certainly recommend you're reading and contemplating it further, Ven. Analayo's book Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization picks up where Nyanaponika's book leaves off, taking you the rest of the way to awakening.

If this commentary leaves you feeling somewhat confused and bemused, then ignore it. If you keep practicing you may eventually come to see some sense in it.

All the best,
Ian


It's funny, but earlier today, before I read your response, I decided to sit and limit myself to just watching the breath sensations for half an hour without engaging in any of the other techniques I usually do, and I found it to be very clarifying and grounding. It was a bit like trying to listen to several instruments in an ensemble all at once, as there was the breathing, the general whole-body awareness, thoughts and impressions, and the sensation of my intent itself flitting back and forth and wanting to do its own habitual things, but I was able to keep returning to the sensation of breathing itself. And it was very pleasant. It was also the first time I had focused on just that for more than a few minutes before feeling lost in the vast number of other sensations that arise and then going on to something else. Although at the end I did allow my attention to start focusing on the qualities of the sensations of spaciousness that I often feel during meditation, and it felt easier than usual to investigate those things without ending up feeling disoriented. So I am now even more hopeful that meditation will have more reliable positive effects.

Thanks again for your response; I appreciate your help.

Josh
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Ian And, modified 12 Years ago at 9/4/11 12:28 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/4/11 12:28 AM

RE: Hello/Introduction and a Question about Concentration

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi Josh,

You're welcome.

I think you will like the Connected Discourses of the Buddha once you begin to get into it. The first section is not all that interesting, but the following four are full of eye-opening insight into the Dhamma. And Bhikkhu Bodhi's introductions to each section is worth the price of the book alone. Make use of everything there, including and most especially the footnotes as they will help to explain quite a bit about the intent of what is being taught. Take your time and read and think about what it is that you're reading, comparing it to your own life experiences in order to get the most out of it.

And if you think the Connected Discourses are good, you will love the The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, An Anthology of Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya translated by Nyanaponika Thera, which is at present the only decent translation we have, that is until Bhk. Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara is finally completed for publication by Wisdom Publications. These two volumes are among the oldest discourses which the Buddha delivered, and they are full of insightful passages which help to explain and expand upon the Dhamma he taught. These two volumes are my favorite volumes of discourses, with the Majjhima and select discourses from the Digha Nikaya coming in a close third and fourth.

What you call "tension" ("related to the paradoxical quality of being aware of being aware, a type of cognitive dissonance") I call clarity of mind, sans the idea of cognitive dissonance. The impression of there being dissonance, I'm sure, is due to the general all-around busy-ness of the untrained mind. Once the mind becomes better trained, without that busy-ness getting in the way, the mind settles down and can view reality more clearly. This is what you need to be seeking.

When you mentioned "lists" I associated that with the various lists of qualities that are often mentioned in Buddhist literature. Things like the Five Aggregates, The Four Noble Truths, the Five Spiritual Faculties, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment, the Ten Fetters of Existence, the Three Characteristics of Existence and so on.

The stock passage that you quoted in explaining what you meant by lists ("When X is present in him, the monk knows 'there is X in me'. He knows how X comes to be; he knows how the rejection of the arisen X comes to be...) I take to be a straightforward explanation about being cognizant of one's direct experience in the present moment, otherwise what might be described as establishing mindfulness. Such passages seem to be saying that, when you see these things directly for yourself, you will know directly for yourself the truth of that which you are observing. Nothing mysterious or complicated here.

In other words, there will be no doubt in the mind about whatever phenomena you are observing. It's all lucidly and clearly displayed in front of you. Just simple, direct observation of phenomena, without any of the usual biases and prejudices to cloud one's vision or get in the way. Being able to make such simple and direct observations of one's experience is at the heart of what the Dhamma teaches: to establish mindfulness at all times and to overcome greed, aversion, and delusion, to see things clearly for what they are (the three characteristics) at all times. Just this is that path to the ending of sorrow along with personal suffering and dissatisfaction. It can seem so simple, yet the undisciplined mind likes to complicate things and make them difficult to see clearly.

Joshua David Lerner:

It's funny, but earlier today, before I read your response, I decided to sit and limit myself to just watching the breath sensations for half an hour without engaging in any of the other techniques I usually do, and I found it to be very clarifying and grounding. It was a bit like trying to listen to several instruments in an ensemble all at once, as there was the breathing, the general whole-body awareness, thoughts and impressions, and the sensation of my intent itself flitting back and forth and wanting to do its own habitual things, but I was able to keep returning to the sensation of breathing itself. And it was very pleasant. It was also the first time I had focused on just that for more than a few minutes before feeling lost in the vast number of other sensations that arise and then going on to something else. Although at the end I did allow my attention to start focusing on the qualities of the sensations of spaciousness that I often feel during meditation, and it felt easier than usual to investigate those things without ending up feeling disoriented. So I am now even more hopeful that meditation will have more reliable positive effects.

All of the qualities that you've mentioned here (those highlighted areas above) are exactly what the practice is all about. This is how it should be ALL the time, whether you are meditating or not. Yet, it is easier to start reconditioning the mind by being able to notice these qualities during a good meditation. When you sit to do insight meditation, you should be able to notice how each of these mechanisms come into play, their arising and their passing away as well as the affective quality attached to each. When you become mindful of these aspects of your mental world of experience, you will have taken the first few steps toward successfully being able to discipline the mind. And with more practice, you will be able to remove the triggering mechanisms that cause greed, aversion, and delusion. And then you will be FREE!

All the best,
Ian

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