Struggling with impermanence of source of perception

Colin, modified 7 Months ago.

Struggling with impermanence of source of perception

Posts: 20 Join Date: 6/10/15 Recent Posts
Yesterday I was practicing noting the impermanence of sensations, and I realized that there was a sensation that I couldn't figure out how to see as impermanent. There seemed to be a point in space that was the source of my perceptions, and that seemed stable despite the impermanence of everything around that spot.

If I had to label that sensation, it would be something of a mix of a thought and a sensation of proprioception (the body's internal orientation--what tells you which way is down even when your eyes are closed). I could notice individual sensations of seeing, hearing, etc. emerging and disappearing, and I could notice specific thought sensations like thinking, wondering, and desiring being impermanent, but that bundle of the source/perceiver seemed constant.

Does anyone have advice for how to investigate the impermanence of that sensation?

If it matters, I've self-diagnosed as crossing the A&P over 10 years ago, and within the last year I reached equanimity, but I'm nearly positive I have not had a path attainment and my meditation practice has been very inconsistent, so I have literally no idea where my current practice tends to land in the progress of insight--I'd believe anything from mind and body all the way up to the dukka nanas, but I'm confident that I am no longer regularly in equanimity because I haven't felt that sense of spaciousness since my practice became inconsistent.
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Chris Marti, modified 7 Months ago.

RE: Struggling with impermanence of source of perception

Posts: 4009 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
If I had to label that sensation, it would be something of a mix of a thought and a sensation of proprioception (the body's internal orientation--what tells you which way is down even when your eyes are closed). I could notice individual sensations of seeing, hearing, etc. emerging and disappearing, and I could notice specific thought sensations like thinking, wondering, and desiring being impermanent, but that bundle of the source/perceiver seemed constant.

Does anyone have advice for how to investigate the impermanence of that sensation?

This is the very core of the delusion of a center of being, a self, a controller of experience and the source of perceived experiential hierarchy. If you can see that it is "there" then you're in a good place. I don't know of a sure-fire method to unwind this illusory sense of a center of being. It just seems to just disappear one day. At least that's how it happened to me and those I know.
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terry, modified 6 Months ago.

RE: Struggling with impermanence of source of perception

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
If I had to label that sensation, it would be something of a mix of a thought and a sensation of proprioception (the body's internal orientation--what tells you which way is down even when your eyes are closed). I could notice individual sensations of seeing, hearing, etc. emerging and disappearing, and I could notice specific thought sensations like thinking, wondering, and desiring being impermanent, but that bundle of the source/perceiver seemed constant.

Does anyone have advice for how to investigate the impermanence of that sensation?

This is the very core of the delusion of a center of being, a self, a controller of experience and the source of perceived experiential hierarchy. If you can see that it is "there" then you're in a good place. I don't know of a sure-fire method to unwind this illusory sense of a center of being. It just seems to just disappear one day. At least that's how it happened to me and those I know.




from "the roaring stream' eds foster, shoemaker



   A monk brought up the story: "Someone asked Hsiang-yen: 'What is the Way?' and Hsiang-yen answered, 'A dragon's song from a withered tree.' This person then said, 'I don't understand,' and Hsiang-yen replied, 'An eye in the skull.' The same person later asked Shih-shuang: 'What is a dragon's song from a withered tree?' and Shih-huang replied, 'There's still some joy remaining.' Then he asked, 'What is an eye in the skull?' and Shih-shuang replied, 'There's still some consciousness remaining.'"

   The Master then responded with a verse:

A dragon's song from a withered tree - this is truly seeing the Way.
No consciousness in the skull - now for the first time the eye is clear.
Yet when joy and consciousness are exhausted, they still do not completely disappear.
How can that person distinguish purity amidst the turbid? 

The monk then asked the Master: "What about 'a dragon's song from a withered tree?' "
The Master said, "The blood vessel is not cut off."
The monk asked, "What about an eye in the skull?"
The Master said, "It can't be completely dried up/"
The monk said, "I don't know whether there is somebody who can hear?"
The Master said, "In the great earth there is not a single person who has not heard."
The monk said, "Then what kind of phrase is "a dragon's song from a withered tree.'"
The Master said, "I don'tknow what kind of phrase this is, but (I do know that) all who hear are doomed."
agnostic, modified 6 Months ago.

RE: Struggling with impermanence of source of perception

Posts: 1909 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Are you aware of that point all the time? If not, then it's impermanent!
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terry, modified 6 Months ago.

RE: Struggling with impermanence of source of perception

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Colin:
Yesterday I was practicing noting the impermanence of sensations, and I realized that there was a sensation that I couldn't figure out how to see as impermanent. There seemed to be a point in space that was the source of my perceptions, and that seemed stable despite the impermanence of everything around that spot.

If I had to label that sensation, it would be something of a mix of a thought and a sensation of proprioception (the body's internal orientation--what tells you which way is down even when your eyes are closed). I could notice individual sensations of seeing, hearing, etc. emerging and disappearing, and I could notice specific thought sensations like thinking, wondering, and desiring being impermanent, but that bundle of the source/perceiver seemed constant.

Does anyone have advice for how to investigate the impermanence of that sensation?

If it matters, I've self-diagnosed as crossing the A&P over 10 years ago, and within the last year I reached equanimity, but I'm nearly positive I have not had a path attainment and my meditation practice has been very inconsistent, so I have literally no idea where my current practice tends to land in the progress of insight--I'd believe anything from mind and body all the way up to the dukka nanas, but I'm confident that I am no longer regularly in equanimity because I haven't felt that sense of spaciousness since my practice became inconsistent.


aloha colin,

   Investigate what happens to the sensation of self when you fall asleep.

   When you are awake, accept that perspective has a source point, and realize it has as many source points as there are sentient beings.

   Investigate: what is the source point for sentience in all being(s)?


   The problem, as such, is of course inconsistency of practice. The essence of practice is prajna. Practice may be interrupted by the need to resolve doubts; this is all practice, if inconsistent practice, but who's judging? Everything unfolds in its own proper time if you don't interfere. Meditation is the practice of not interfering.

terry

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