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Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 10/14/14 3:23 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Villum (redacted) 9/6/11 9:26 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/9/11 4:08 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Tommy M 9/6/11 3:32 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/9/11 4:04 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Tommy M 9/9/11 1:26 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Jeff Grove 9/7/11 5:17 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/9/11 3:56 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Jeff Grove 9/10/11 6:15 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 10/15/14 3:37 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Meggo mu 9/11/11 7:04 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/11/11 10:20 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Meggo mu 9/11/11 12:46 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/12/11 12:16 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Meggo mu 9/13/11 1:45 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Jeff Grove 9/12/11 9:48 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... eric d 9/8/11 3:57 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/9/11 3:53 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... . Jake . 9/9/11 3:14 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Change A. 10/15/14 10:59 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Daniel B 9/10/11 9:30 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/11/11 6:04 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Daniel B 9/12/11 10:37 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/12/11 12:13 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Daniel B 9/14/11 2:50 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 9/16/11 3:10 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Oliver Myth 9/19/11 9:01 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 10/15/14 3:39 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Howard Maxwell Clegg 10/15/14 7:54 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Howard Maxwell Clegg 10/15/14 7:38 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Jeremy May 10/15/14 8:36 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Howard Maxwell Clegg 10/16/14 4:59 AM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Jeremy May 10/16/14 4:02 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Howard Maxwell Clegg 10/17/14 5:41 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Jeremy May 10/17/14 6:39 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Howard Maxwell Clegg 10/19/14 12:10 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Florian 10/19/14 2:21 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Howard Maxwell Clegg 10/19/14 3:32 PM
RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes... Jeremy May 10/19/14 3:51 PM
... whatever you want to call it.

Let's have a discussion about that. There is quite a bit of myth about this phenomenon. Can we open the window and have some fresh air and bright light?

I got onto this (and it may be a personal thing, I'm entirely aware of this) listening to Kenneth Folk's podcast on Mahamudra. It's a recording of a skype session between a student and Kenneth. At one point, a transmission effect seems to have happended, because the student remarks on it and Kenneth gives a short answer. They don't dwell on it, understandably, because they were doing something different from discussing weird phenomena.

This kind of experience can be very intense, and I've been hearing from people to whom it was beneficial in their development. On the other hand, it can (due to the perceived dependence on the "transmitter" or teacher, and the intensity of the experience) be a great breeding-ground for all kinds of weird projections.

The discussion thread over at KFD is called New Video: Mahamudra and the Joy of Failure, but there was little interest in discussing the subject in any detail.

I think a thorough discussion would be a) fun to have and b) long overdue.

Has it happened to you? Under what circumstances? What happened then?

What does it do? What doesn't it do?

What does it mean if it happens in the vicinity of someone? Over skype?

What else can we ask about this phenomenon?

Cheers,
Florian

(edit: fixed broken link to the KFD thread)

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/6/11 9:26 AM as a reply to Florian.
I suspect, but have no way to know, that it is related to this "tuning-in" that Antero describes on this thread
Kenneth Folk refers to a similar phenomenon in the tour of the 13 jhanas video, where he says he will be able to "vibrate along". I'm guessing the transmission part depends on being able to "tune in" i some way, but i may be totally mistaken.

Antero:
"Is that to say you feel good and buzzy when doing ping-pong meditation with another yogi, nowadays?
- beoman"

When I sit with another yogi, I feel all sorts of things that I have not experienced otherwise since January this year (after 6th and 7th stages). This new ability enables me to tune into other yogi’s wavelength so that I am able to follow him through the stages of insight. It seems to work much more accurately than I first thought. When we go through the nanas I may experience anxiousness, excitement, bliss, aversion, fear, disgust, metta, gratitude all other stuff that I otherwise do not have anymore.

It is quite interesting and educational to go through these stages again, especially as I am now feeling them more clearly and intensely than at the time I was cycling through them myself.

Many spiritual teachers must have this same skill as I can imagine it to be quite useful in teaching situations. When I spoke with Kenneth, he recognized it and called it neuro transference, if I remember correctly.


The transmission phenomenon hasn't happened to me in a way that i noticed directly at the time, but one of Kenneth's mahamudra pointers blew me directly into nonduality. I suspect it was not just the pointer, but also a question of timing and empathy/tuning-in that you might call transmission.

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/6/11 3:32 PM as a reply to Florian.
I think a thorough discussion would be a) fun to have and b) long overdue.

Aye, I've seen some people hinting at having had the ability to do so, usually those people who make big claims and don't back it up with evidence then vanish when no one bothers with them. emoticon But I agree that it's a fun topic and the benefits of understanding the mechanics of it would be useful.

The way I see things like transmission is that it's caused by a combination of several factors ranging from belief structure to non-verbal communication, I don't view it as being anything spiritual or mystical. I don't doubt that the experience can be effective in initiating a shift in an individuals worldview, usually towards a view which is in alignment with that held by the transmitter, but the phenomena itself can be replicated by anyone willing to learn how. Doing it effectively is a totally different matter as it requires the appropriate setting, context, atmosphere and set-up, but it is possible and I've done it myself a few times.

What does it do?

In my opinion, it creates a cognitive dissonance, an instant where a path-like imprint (I say path-like as it is not a permanent shift, more like a guerrilla A&P) can be made in the mind through suggestion, symbolism and non-verbal signals. It's not quite that simple but that's about as good as I can come up with. Maybe a more positive way to put it could be "opens the door a bit".

What doesn't it do?

Make the person who can perform it successfully any sort of guru, master, teacher, healer, god or whatever.

What does it mean if it happens in the vicinity of someone?

I'd say that a lot of the effectiveness comes down to the persons susceptibility to suggestion and a whole host of other factors.

Over skype?

Want a laugh? I've never told anyone about this on here 'cause it's too ridiculous but 100% true, just after I got stream entry I had been trolling on youtube when I ended up in quite an interesting to-and-fro with some guy on there. To cut a long story short, he asked me something like "Why do you say one thing and then do another" (in reference to the fact that I had been deliberately leaving contradictory comments - why? - no idea, I enjoyed confusing people) to which I said something like "Why do you say one thing and then do it? In fact, who does it?". Bearing in mind that I was in Review at the time and coasting along reeking of enlightenment, being a pain in the arse and thinking I'd cracked it, I thought that this was quite a cool, enlightened comment to make from the non-dual pedestal my ass was planted on. A matter of minutes later he sent me a private message about what I meant and why I said it, so I replied something like "I like to argue points of view I don't believe in, or argue against the things I like". About two days later he just replied (and I just checked this old account on youtube and found the comment) "I swear to "GOD" that was deep dude that freaking blew my mind i swear I rate you. Peace". I asked how he felt and he basically told me he no longer believed in anything, not in a nihilistic way but that he had seen there was no self, that beliefs were just beliefs and that he felt free. I don't care whether or not this was "liberation" a'la direct pointing or if "I" helped the guy "wake up" or whatever, the point is that this sort of experience is not limited to physical interaction and can be done without ever seeing the person. Obviously I didn't set out to "blow" any minds, or to transmit anything but it seems that the conditions were right for that guy for this experience to occur and the words I used did whatever they did to incline his mind towards awakening. For this elongated reason, I think it's entirely possible for this to happen over skype.

What else can we ask about this phenomenon?

What is really happening? What are the causes of it? How can it be utilized towards ending suffering? What are the psychological mechanisms involved?

Great idea for a thread, Florian, and good to see your cheeky wee smiling face appearing on the boards again!

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/7/11 5:17 AM as a reply to Florian.
Hi,

I have wondered in the past if there is a relationship between shaktipat and the experience of crossing the A&P

Viewing this particular video there is no way of knowing what actually occurred and it would be interesting to hear from the lady involved and what she had experienced.

There were indications that the lady had reached the Dark Night stages and had been cycling. If this was the case it is possible that she passed through A&P and experienced a liberating rush of energy.
There is a natural progression of insight which an experienced practitioner would be aware of and it is possible for this knowledge to be used to ensure conditions will lead to staging of an experience. This is one reason a student turns to a teacher for guidance.







cheers
Jeff

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/8/11 3:57 PM as a reply to Florian.
Hey,

Nice topic, Florian. It's an interesting phenomenon. I have heard it aptly described by a good teacher using the analogy of a tuning fork. If one tuning fork pitched to C is vibrating, and you bring it near another tuning fork of the same size that is free of any blocks to vibration - like a heavy cloth placed over it, or it's position prone on a fluffy carpet - the second tuning fork will start to vibrate at the same frequency thanks to what is known as 'resonance'.

In the same way, an adept practitioner or realized being's mindstream is at a certain vibration related to their realizations. If you are free from enough blocks or obscurations (such as extremely out-of-control subconscious chatter, or limiting belief structures), then your mind will automatically become in resonance with theirs.


emoticon

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/9/11 3:53 AM as a reply to eric d.
Hi Eric,

I've come across this description as well. It's an interesting analogy, but it doesn't cover what it is that gets the first fork vibrating. The second fork will resonate, but only if the first one is ringing.

So, some people seem to be "broadcasters" for other people to tune in on.

Interestingly, the "broadcasters" don't seem to know much about that either. Some downplay it, like Kenneth in that recording, explaining it on a more egalitarian level as happening "between two people", a peer-to-peer thing. I bet it happens more to Kenneth than to the student, though, and that means it's not really peer-to-peer.

Ideas or opinion about that?

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/9/11 3:56 AM as a reply to Jeff Grove.
Hi Jeff,

So your take on the "shaktipat transmitter" role is that it's an artifact of the circumstances: people who are in A&P or late dark night are predisposed for this transmission thing, and since they will be the ones turning to a teacher more, shaktipat will tend to happen more in the context of them turning to a teacher.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/9/11 4:04 AM as a reply to Tommy M.
Hi Tommy,

Cognitive dissonance - between which beliefs and which experiences? Interesting.

About it not turning someone into a guru: erm. Andrew Cohen? (There's a book called "Enlightenment Blues" which contains many passages describing shaktipat happening in his presence).

Skype / online - yeah, that's been my experience, too. Good story, why didn't you tell it before?

Tommy M:
What is really happening? What are the causes of it? How can it be utilized towards ending suffering? What are the psychological mechanisms involved?


Good ones. Takers?

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/9/11 4:08 AM as a reply to Villum (redacted).
Hi Villum,

I think you're onto something - Tommy mentioned his experience with online "pointing" from a nondual perspective.

Are these two different phenomena, do you think - 1) pointing at the truth (which does have an intellectual/verbal component) and 2) "transmission/shaktipat" which is often described as non-verbal?

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/9/11 1:26 PM as a reply to Florian.
Cognitive dissonance - between which beliefs and which experiences? Interesting.

That's something I don't know, but I think it's something that would be unique for each person, which may account for the lack of reports of mass awakenings. If you want a practical example of what's involved in what I'm talking about, walk up to someone in the street and ask them for the time. When they tell you the time, for example "It's half past three" you look at them directly and say something like "No it's not, it's the end of September", something unrelated to the question, and watch them loose their place in space and time for a split second. That's the moment when it's possible to lead a person to this sort of experience; by using suggestion and having already created an atmosphere which is conducive to the intended outcome it becomes far easier to cause a shift in awareness. Making it a permanent shift is a whole other story.

About it not turning someone into a guru: erm. Andrew Cohen?

I had vaguely heard of him before, but looking a bit more into his shtick he sounds like your classic charismatic preacher-style guy only framed in a different context. Interesting though, I'll have a read into his stuff and see what he's saying.

Skype / online - yeah, that's been my experience, too. Good story, why didn't you tell it before?

Mainly because it sounded a bit far-fetched, and also because I'm not interested in blowing my own imaginary trumpet. emoticon

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/9/11 3:14 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:
Some downplay it,[...] explaining it on a more egalitarian level as happening "between two people", a peer-to-peer thing. I bet it happens more to Kenneth than to the student, though, and that means it's not really peer-to-peer.

Ideas or opinion about that?


In my experience it's happening all the time. But we don't register the "resonance" as much when we're already at that frequency. So two "normal" people are transmitting and receiving "normality" vibes to and from each other.

We notice it when the gap is meaningful in terms of different content ("wow, I was sitting around having a fine time but that guy who just called on the phone was really edgy and now I'm all unsettled too") or different whole level of resonance ("wow, after listening to that Zen master talk for an hour, I stood up and suddenly noticed that everything was made of tiny vibrating colored atoms in a vast open space, and my jacket just put itself on and my body walked itself out of the auditorium like a scene from some artsy movie with sweet first person camera work. Awesome!").

I wonder if sometimes the gap is TOO BIG to perceive too. I remember my first Vajrayana retreat the teacher/guru was sort of a blank slate to me in terms of "vibes"-- seemingly no transmission at all. And yet, speaking informally to some students who'd been practicing for a few years, whether speaking about practice or just ordinary topics, I felt as massive a "transmission effect" as I did at the famous Zen master's talk in the auditorium.

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/10/11 6:15 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:
Hi Jeff,

So your take on the "shaktipat transmitter" role is that it's an artifact of the circumstances: people who are in A&P or late dark night are predisposed for this transmission thing, and since they will be the ones turning to a teacher more, shaktipat will tend to happen more in the context of them turning to a teacher.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Cheers,
Florian



Hi Florian,

Thats one take on it but there are many experiences that could be labled as shaktipat.

There is Great Doubt which can waken you from complacency such as direct pointing or getting clobbered over the head with an old sandel.

I once went with my teacher to visit his teacher and in a conversation a few weeks before the trip my teacher briefly mentioned there will be a transmission. Nothing more was said and I didnt thnk much of it apart from looking forward to what I might learn on my visit.

During the middle of one of the meetings with my teachers teacher I was told that I was going to receive a transmission. I sat there quietly about 8 feet from this old chan monk while he went into a stance compressing his breath and grunted as he pushed his palm forward. I sat waiting for what was going to happen, waiting for what seemed a long time but was probably only 40 to 50 secs.

When he finished I looked at my teacher who was smiling broadly like comething wonderful had happened but I felt nothing and wondered how I would answer when asked how it felt. My teacher started licking his arm and pionted at me to do the same, which I slowly did feeling foolish in the process

To my surprise everywhere I licked tasted sweet and continued to do so for a number of days. My teacher told me to that next time I go to take a piss to taste it. I laughed but he was serious so I did and even my urine tasted sweet. There were about 9 other students with me at the time of the transmission and all reported the same. I also licked a fellow students finger about 2 days later and it was the same sweetness.

What happened? Was it mass hypnosis or was I slipped something in my food and drink that would later ooze from the pores of my skin? What are the implications?

When beliefs are confronted, doubt can remove all the bagage that you bring to the moment, experience changes. So much was previously faithfully experienced that there could have been an elephant in the room and it wouldnt be counsciously noticed.

cheers
Jeff

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/10/11 9:30 PM as a reply to Florian.
Hello Florian,

First let me say that in a sense we are all giving transmission to others around us all day long: states of consciousness are contagious! There is more to this than body language and facial expressions in my opinion. The bigger and more juiced is your subtle body, the more you are able to influence the subtle energy states of others.

Teachers with high level of realization, especially if they have strong samadhi, if you sit with them and are sensitive to some extent can share something with you inwardly. I have experienced this strongly with Taungpulu Sayadaw, now deceased, who definitely planted a “nibbana compass” in me many years ago. People would come into his presence and begin to weep sometimes, so intense was the stillness and the love that rose up from it. I spent about a year with a teacher a few years ago who has overwhelmingly powerful “shakti” and this was one of the reasons that I left him. I could not find my own process so overpowering was the submersion in his energy.

This is how I explain it: do you understand electrical induction? You place a coil without current, near a coil with a current running through it, and current is induced in the passive coil. This is because you always have a magnetic field and electrical field at 90 degrees to each other (ergo, electromagnetic energy). So as the magnetic field from the active coil runs through the passive one, it induces and electrical current. OK, I left out some details, but that is the essential idea. When we sit in the presence of a teacher with a very expanded mind or subtle body, we can expect to have subtle energy activated in us as well.

And then there is just straight up psychic power, like the way Goenka can and Dipa Ma used to be able to flood you with metta to the point of tears. This is more intentional, like the gentleman above whose Chan master gave him diabetic urine.. just kidding! But would be seriously worried if my body was oozing sugar, lol!!

Peace and love!

Daniel

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/11/11 6:04 AM as a reply to Daniel B.
Hi Daniel,

Welcome to the DhO.

Daniel Boutemy:
... in a sense we are all giving transmission to others around us all day long: states of consciousness are contagious! There is more to this than body language and facial expressions in my opinion. The bigger and more juiced is your subtle body, the more you are able to influence the subtle energy states of others.


So how about "transmission via skype", for example in the recorded session between Kenneth and student? Does the subtle body get transported over the internet along with the visual and auditory cues?

Teachers with high level of realization, especially if they have strong samadhi, if you sit with them and are sensitive to some extent can share something with you inwardly. I have experienced this strongly with Taungpulu Sayadaw, now deceased, who definitely planted a “nibbana compass” in me many years ago.


Yeah, the activation for the "nibbana compass" is usually associated with first attaining to the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away (A&P) here on the Dharma Overground. Getting A&P in the presence of a teacher seems to be one of the ways it can happen.

People would come into his presence and begin to weep sometimes, so intense was the stillness and the love that rose up from it. I spent about a year with a teacher a few years ago who has overwhelmingly powerful “shakti” and this was one of the reasons that I left him. I could not find my own process so overpowering was the submersion in his energy.


Interesting. Would you be willing to expand a bit on the reasons you left? In what way did you feel the transmission of shakti was detrimental to your progress in this particular case?

This is how I explain it: do you understand electrical induction? You place a coil without current, near a coil with a current running through it, and current is induced in the passive coil. This is because you always have a magnetic field and electrical field at 90 degrees to each other (ergo, electromagnetic energy). So as the magnetic field from the active coil runs through the passive one, it induces and electrical current. OK, I left out some details, but that is the essential idea. When we sit in the presence of a teacher with a very expanded mind or subtle body, we can expect to have subtle energy activated in us as well.


This is actually an analogy, not an explanation, because the mechanism of transmission is not electro-magnetic induction emoticon So, within the analogy, how would you depict "transmission at a distance", via skype, for example, or accounts (traditional ones as well) of a guru transmitting to remote students?

And then there is just straight up psychic power, like the way Goenka can and Dipa Ma used to be able to flood you with metta to the point of tears. This is more intentional, like the gentleman above whose Chan master gave him diabetic urine.. just kidding! But would be seriously worried if my body was oozing sugar, lol!!


So, in your opinion, is shaktipat a special case of psychic powers?

Thanks for joining the discussion!

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/15/14 3:37 AM as a reply to Jeff Grove.
Hi Jeff,

You've got me thinking about the relationship between the powers, and transmission, and direct pointing. That's an interesting triangle, actually.

Pointing and the arising of Great Doubt: now this can happen remotely, via skype, email, paper mail, reading an old book by an author long dead... so while there may be an overlap with powers or transmission, which could help with getting the doubt going, just as meditation skills can, I tend to think that pointing and powers/shaktipat have different mechanisms and aims. To me, this has a lot to do with getting "path-changing" insights, the kind which integrates all the details previously accessed.

Powers and transmission: there are some weird/interesting accounts to be found on the internet, such as this one: The Last American Darshan, which reads more like "A&P"-style insights, you know the ones which will unveil a lot of detail without giving away anything about the big picture, so to speak.

Oh, and your transmission of sweetness is a sweet story! What did you make of it? How was it useful to you in your progress - just as a challenge to your opinions about perception (such as taste), or perhaps in other ways as well?

Cheers,
Florian

(edit: broken link fixed)

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/15/14 3:39 AM as a reply to Florian.
Oh, and the legions of anonymous lurkers who support me in private messages emoticon have brought this to my attention:

Thomas Hübl. Large parts of the site are in German, but there is a bit of English material.

Cheers,
Florian

(edit: broken link fixed)

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/11/11 7:04 AM as a reply to Florian.
activation of muladhara and anahata chakras
one pointed concentration
energy bursts
time dilation
motivation
activation of some form of inner compass
immediate effect even without touching
and it works every time, so the results are reproducible

look here for a blog about one of those highly realized teachers ;)
http://tiny.cc/puo6d

emoticon

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/11/11 10:20 AM as a reply to Meggo mu.
Meggo mu:
a blog about one of those highly realized teachers


Right, highly reproducible... although I suspect that in this instance role expectations and in particular the traditional attire contribute to a large extent to building up susceptibility for the effect to occur reliably.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/11/11 12:46 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:

Right, highly reproducible... although I suspect that in this instance role expectations and in particular the traditional attire contribute to a large extent to building up susceptibility for the effect to occur reliably.


yes thats right
and beside looking at pictures of megan fox on the internet there could be
other factors which could contribute to being a succesful target for transmission of spiritual (or sexual states) like
1) suceptibility to peer pressure: especially effective in stage hypnosis, where the target seems to just play the role of the hypnotized person to "avoid spoiling the show"
2) mirror neurons: if transmission of whatever is based on body language, than people with more mirror neurons are better targets
3) expectations that something will happen right now, because of the presence of an important teacher --> leading to stronger concentration on the present moment which always leads to good things
4) false memories

if 1 and/ or 2 apply then more women than men should be prone to shaktipat experiences

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/12/11 10:37 AM as a reply to Florian.
Hello again dear Florian,

Not just transmission via skype, but how on earth do videos manage to transmit? Well, I have noticed two things in this scenario: one is that the transmission of shakti is always weaker over distance or via internet than in person, the other is that because of these scenarios, it is obvious that at least part of the phenomenon is not space-time bound. For this to be the case, then the subtle body must be at least in some of its dimensions a four or five dimensional phenomenon (I say five in case you wish to take time as the fourth). Note that nothing has been said here about any kind of spiritual realization. And indeed there are teachers that I do not consider realized that have a strong ability to transmit. If we look at it from the Mahayan perspective, most well developed in the school of Hwa Yen Buddhism and the Avatamsaka Sutra, we have a vision of reality that is completely interpenetrating. All dharmas are already extinguished in their nature. The emptiness of one dharma is not separable from the emptiness of another dharma. All dharmas interpenetrate. There are 10,000 Buddha fields in the tip of a hair. Etc. Everything is contained in everything else. We all share in this reality; we all are this reality and hence we all create everything together. Or it creates us, delusion and all.

As to Nibbana compass, I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. By the time I met Taugpulu Sayadaw in 1983, I had already been sitting for nine years and had abundant experience of both knowledge of arising and passing away, and of the dukkha ñanas. But no “nibbana compass” was evident. What I mean is that Taungpulu’s being was completely resolved. There was just not friction in him at all. He radiated the peace of extinction. When exposed to this “vibration” repeatedly, it influences you. It places within you an intuition about your inner direction. It’s like you can follow the fragrance of the deathless to its source. You could call it an awakening of the inner guru.

Now with this other teacher, we shall call him Guru X, the states of consciousness transmitted were overwhelmingly powerful and not characteristic of my own meditation. We must make the distinction between a realization, and the samadhi that is the matirx that bears it. The flavors of his transmitted samadhi was of a foreign flavor that was not authentic to my own practice. I felt that my own true process was being submerged. I was not being true to my own destiny. Other aspects of his transmission were just useless to me. For example there was a very strong bio-electrical component to the experience that I found distracting and irritating. He equated this with kundalini, which I thought was really the most absolutely shallow aspect of that reality. To me kundalini is mula-prakrti or mula-shakti, that is the primordial energy of consciousness itself, and not some silly distracting body based phenomenon. For me, the awakening of kundalini is the awakening of the totality of the energy of consciousness in all of its dimensions.

As to my analogy of electrical induction, let us not beat it to death. Obviously to account for transmission at a distance, or via videos, we have to conceive of it as four/five dimensional. Now you ask me is shaktipat a special case of psychic powers? Well, all of this is just hypothesizing and opinion anyway, so why stop now. I am going to say no. Just because it is natural to who we are and how we function. It is in the very nature of reality to share. Nothing special need be done to make this happen. Even now for example, I am reflecting on your picture, and I am reading your words. I am “feeling” your energy to some extent, as you are mine by reading my words. Even the silly photo I chose as my avatar says something about me, and my humor (I am a nurse, and a gay man). We are in each other at this moment, sharing something. Now if you are making people’s skin taste sweet, that is a different story.

This entire thread has been very clarifying for me around this phenomenon. It is odd that in a certain sense, this is just hypothesizing and so a kind of big circle jerk, but in another sense, by sharing our reflections and experiences we can feel our way to a common experience of reality. I love this business of thinking together! Thank you so much Florian.

Very best wishes to you!

Daniel

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/12/11 12:13 PM as a reply to Daniel B.
Daniel Boutemy:
... there are teachers that I do not consider realized that have a strong ability to transmit ... We all share in this reality; we all are this reality and hence we all create everything together. Or it creates us, delusion and all.


OK, so I understand you to be saying that the ability to transmit/give shaktipat is not coupled to realization of the nature of what is transmitted.

I'm curious: you are hinting at specific examples... even if you don't want to mention them by name, what are the reasons for your verdict about their realization?

As to Nibbana compass, I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. By the time I met Taugpulu Sayadaw in 1983, I had already been sitting for nine years and had abundant experience of both knowledge of arising and passing away, and of the dukkha ñanas. But no “nibbana compass” was evident. What I mean is that Taungpulu’s being was completely resolved. There was just not friction in him at all. He radiated the peace of extinction. When exposed to this “vibration” repeatedly, it influences you. It places within you an intuition about your inner direction. It’s like you can follow the fragrance of the deathless to its source. You could call it an awakening of the inner guru.


Ok, then I mistook your very apt and suggestive phrase "nibbana compass" for that threshold experience which will irrevocably launch a person on the "spiritual quest", and that's something which happens on their first A&P.

But yeah, I get what you mean: that transition from "seeking, not knowing what" to "seeking, knowing what". True, the two events are quite distinct, and there can be a long period of time between the two.

For example there was a very strong bio-electrical component to the experience that I found distracting and irritating. He equated this with kundalini, which I thought was really the most absolutely shallow aspect of that reality.


Interesting - That "bio-electrical" component is something I gather under the larger umbrella term of "energy" (not the physics-101 kind of energy, of course, but the new-age usage), along with kundalini stuff and the psychic powers and so on. So transmission as you experienced it is related to but not included in the "energy" type of experience?

Now you ask me is shaktipat a special case of psychic powers? Well, all of this is just hypothesizing and opinion anyway, so why stop now. I am going to say no. Just because it is natural to who we are and how we function. It is in the very nature of reality to share. Nothing special need be done to make this happen. Even now for example, I am reflecting on your picture, and I am reading your words. I am “feeling” your energy to some extent, as you are mine by reading my words. Even the silly photo I chose as my avatar says something about me, and my humor (I am a nurse, and a gay man). We are in each other at this moment, sharing something. Now if you are making people’s skin taste sweet, that is a different story.


All right, but I think you'll agree that there is a huge difference between sharing a picture or words, and sharing some energy phenomenon or kundalini experience, and again, sharing some highly realized, maybe nondual perspective, isn't there?

So in one sense I agree with you that the transmission effect is part of the human capacity to share experience. I still think it's useful/skilful to make more distinctions here, though.

This entire thread has been very clarifying for me around this phenomenon. It is odd that in a certain sense, this is just hypothesizing and so a kind of big circle jerk, but in another sense, by sharing our reflections and experiences we can feel our way to a common experience of reality. I love this business of thinking together!


Me too! That's why I started this thread. Thanks for sharing your opinions and hypotheses and experiences! In a very down-to-earth sense, this kind of transmission will hopefully lead to more clarity and less ignorance (in the spiritual sense) all around.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
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9/12/11 12:16 PM as a reply to Meggo mu.
Hi Meggo,

nice! Can you give us a short heads-up on mirror neurons here? I'm sure I've heard the term, but I'm too lazy to research it.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/12/11 9:48 PM as a reply to Florian.
Daniel Boutemy:
whose Chan master gave him diabetic urine.. just kidding! But would be seriously worried if my body was oozing sugar, lol!!
Daniel



Hi Daniel,

Welcome to DhO,

Curious I get this response alot when I tell this story, not that its bullshit or its impossible but usually some warning about I wouldnt mess with that or about the damage to my health.

Florian Weps:

I tend to think that pointing and powers/shaktipat have different mechanisms and aims. To me, this has a lot to do with getting "path-changing" insights, the kind which integrates all the details previously accessed.


Hi Florian,

I might have been using a broader definition of shacktipat but these are tools creating conditions favourable with progress along the way.

Definitely an A&P type of event could create the sense of an energy transfer between 2 people. An emotive response the feeling of compasionate love, an exhiliating rush of energy. These may all have a biological basis and dont need "powers" to explain.

May I ask what is your idea of what powers are?

Florian Weps:


Oh, and your transmission of sweetness is a sweet story! What did you make of it? How was it useful to you in your progress - just as a challenge to your opinions about perception (such as taste), or perhaps in other ways as well? .


I dont know how this affected my progress. During the transmission I felt nothing apart from 40 sec of silent anticipation. When questioned my teacher responded that this body is qi and is changing. Later I was told that from one perspective the teacher has expanded his field in order to affect change, (his universe). The meanings of these would be tradition specific

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/13/11 1:45 AM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:
Hi Meggo,

nice! Can you give us a short heads-up on mirror neurons here? I'm sure I've heard the term, but I'm too lazy to research it.

Cheers,
Florian


sure
very brief:
mirror neurons seem to be important for several things, but in the context of shaktipat the transmission of emotional/ psychological states is the most important one. mirror neurons fire when a persons sees another person undergoing a specific experience, resulting in some form of imitation (laughing when they are laughing, learning of languages) or empathy (feeling their pain).
So mirror neurons can function as an antenna for other persons feeling. Feelings = meaning are transmitted primarily by body language
see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_language
about 70% of the information between people is transmitted non-verbally
so the mystical thing about shaktipat is of course that it is being transmitted non verbally. So the only possibility is picking up cues in the teachers body language and thus imitating his/ her state. The more mirror neurons one has, the better it should work. That is why women should be easier targets.
There is also a test for it
http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/Faces/EyesTest.aspx
i got 34 points, which means i should be a good target for the transmission of psychological states.

And regarding the sexual state, everybody knows that transmitting it is no problem, but maybe it is just not special enough to give it a fancy name. I for example can transmit it in a few seconds just by slight change of body language and eye contact. The woman i would use this on would stop talking, generate tunnel vision and ( i am pretty sure about that) start feeling what i feel in this moment - which is piti - as i look into her eyes. In such cases i actually succesfully transmitted some form of the first jhana to her, also called "sexual tension."

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/14/11 2:50 PM as a reply to Florian.
Jeff:

Thank you for your welcome. I am sorry for the flip remark. I really did not mean it seriously. I am sure you would have known if you were being harmed and it is unlikely that such a man would be harming his own.


Florian:

Well now, you are really going to hold my feet to the fire, eh? Lol !

I'm curious: you are hinting at specific examples... even if you don't want to mention them by name, what are the reasons for your verdict about their realization?


I would not completely unlink the shaktipat from realization. I would say that it is always present in a fully self-realized person, simply as the spontaneous sharing of their being. But it is also found in coarser dimensions with someone who is less developed, say as energetic phenomena, dreams etc. which also may or may not be present in the presence of the realized. In the presence of the realized the influence is at the most basic level of consciousness: we may experience emptiness, intensifying of awareness etc. these tend to be permanently contagious. You can “catch” awakening from others, although you will likely have to “blow on the flame” for awhile with practice to get the devouring flame of awakeness good and steady. This is part of my criteria for realization, although ultimately there is an intuitive factor that is hard to communicate: either the realization of non-duality/Rigpa, or that quality of being extinguished (that I have experienced in the presence of Taungpulu Sayadaw). I can sense both of these reflecting in me after I have spent enough time with a person to “tune in” if that person is “realized.” Of course the absence of my ability to “tune in” to someone does not mean the absence of those states in them, right? “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” as the saying goes…So I will be the first to admit this is not fool-proof. And again, just because they are realized and can share their state, does not mean that it is necessarily healthy for me, as I stated previously. This whole thing is very organic, very kind of “what’s the flow doing now?”

Ok, then I mistook your very apt and suggestive phrase "nibbana compass" for that threshold experience which will irrevocably launch a person on the "spiritual quest", and that's something which happens on their first A&P.


When I was 12 years old, I experienced a kind of spontaneous momentary awakening, the result of reading a passage in a publication of the Upanishads. Right then I consecrated my life to this journey. Right then, I knew the purpose of my life, and I have never deviated (although I do occasionally take a vacation from it). So for me Udayabhaya ñana and what you describe have never been linked. I do remember seeing the four noble truths during my first retreat with Goenka (the one and only Dharamsala retreat he held at the Tibetan library) when I was 19 years old, and I did experience a kind of inner conversion to the Dhamma, perhaps that is what you mean, but I knew nothing about Knowledge or Arising and Passing away back then, and do not have much memory of that retreat. I have had plenty of experience with Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away, and it is quite powerful of course, but my experience both in teaching and as a yogi tells me that we cannot make rules about these things. The length, intensity and clarity of the various ñanas varies greatly from student to student, and retreat to retreat. There is a huge emphasis on Udayabhaya ñana within the culture of this site. I question the value of this, even if it is "one of the big ones." It is apt to induce suggestions into people’s practice, or leave yogis feeling that something went wrong if they did not experience it “that way”. One has ALWAYS to look at the overall context of experience, current development and history to understand a ñana in a particular yogi. Symptoms removed from context are too easy to misunderstand, what with the semantical problems that are part of that teacher-student communication process.

Interesting - That "bio-electrical" component is something I gather under the larger umbrella term of "energy" (not the physics-101 kind of energy, of course, but the new-age usage), along with kundalini stuff and the psychic powers and so on. So transmission as you experienced it is related to but not included in the "energy" type of experience?


Florian, I would say that transmission is a very broad category that includes many phenomena, many of them energetic, but not all. My experience with Taungpulu was not energetic. Would you call the experience of metta when shared with someone who can project it energy? I guess one could say that even Taungpulu’s “sharing” was a kind of very very subtle energy, since every state of consciousness affects one’s energy, no? I would say that transmission of realization, or that which leads to it is a small subset of this larger and more complex phenomenon. I guess you would have to define energy. Why bother? This is already too complicated! emoticon

Now, you have held back quite a bit as regards your own experiences and opinions in these matters. I am hoping at some point we will hear more from you!

Metta,

Daniel

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/16/11 3:10 AM as a reply to Daniel B.
Daniel Boutemy:
Florian, I would say that transmission is a very broad category that includes many phenomena, many of them energetic, but not all. My experience with Taungpulu was not energetic. Would you call the experience of metta when shared with someone who can project it energy?


Yes, since it's my umbrella term for all of this stuff. It doesn't have to buzz to be "spiritual energy", the way I use the word. Stuff that occurs in "altered states" is "energy" to me.

Daniel Boutemy:
I guess one could say that even Taungpulu’s “sharing” was a kind of very very subtle energy, since every state of consciousness affects one’s energy, no? I would say that transmission of realization, or that which leads to it is a small subset of this larger and more complex phenomenon. I guess you would have to define energy. Why bother? This is already too complicated! emoticon


Well, there's the scientific definition of energy, you know, equivalent to mechanical work, measured in Joules and so on. It actually took me some time to "get it" that the spiritual crowd didn't mean that.

"Spiritual energy" otoh does not seem to have a rigorous definition. I tend to max out the vagueness here, going for the least common multiple as it were, since it means many kinds of things to all kinds of people.

Daniel Boutemy:
Now, you have held back quite a bit as regards your own experiences and opinions in these matters. I am hoping at some point we will hear more from you!


My opinion is that there's too little talk about transmission-type phenomena, resulting in all kinds of expectations and weird ideals to grow in that dark space. I'm glad so many people joined in this discussion to shed some light on it.

My personal experiences are limited to occasionally having people notice energy stuff (whirring cakras and so on) when meditating with me. So far, they thought it was due to the special third-eye-activating incense sticks they brought along, thankfully. (And maybe it is the incense, or expectations regarding it, after all). Oh, and I've seen entire churches full of charismatic Christians synch up on the preacher's vibe. That was really creepy to me, at the time.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
9/19/11 9:01 PM as a reply to Florian.
Wow! This is fascinating. Thank you for starting this thread. I went thru a long period of denying these phenomenon and labeling them as my imagination unless I could perceive clearly what was happening. It was a very real effort for me and it left an imprint. My experience was even challenged a little bit because of the fact that my best lady friend is able to feel the emotions of her close friends quite accurately even over long distances, and the personal confusion and challenges I felt in my relationship with her and what she could do made this a real struggle for me, and perhaps it is because of personal efforts and struggle to clarify my confusion that I have been able gain my own personal understanding in what I perceive which happens around me transmission-wise.


People like being around happy people because it makes them feel happy, right? Thats kind of like transmission. It could be an automatic thing, like feeling out the mood of a group of people when you enter the room. Most people will also blend into the mood and add a bit of their own mood to the group as well. Another example, if I am intentionally being jumpy happy and excited and inviting others to feel that way, then wouldn't that effect other people? If two people are have more intense interactions with each other the degree of change and influence between them will grow, whether it is spiritual or not.

Now here is kind of where I think this "normal" transmission differs from "spiritual" transmission:

The first and most common way a lot of spiritual transmissions will happen is during the nana/shakti cycles once the cycles are triggered in a person. This seems to be automatic, kind of like how a lot of girls living together have their menstrual cycles synch up. The stronger and clearer one person experiences their inner state, the more likely it is to be transmitted, especially if other people are in tune with him/her.

But in order to have some sort of permanent transmission capability or to be able to experience (and thus transmit) more pure/subtle states around other people, I think that "grounding" activities, grounding spiritual practices, and in-the-life personal struggle make it so that one can experience that state when it one calls on it (and thus is able to transmit it a normal way like any other emotion). Otherwise, if one does not use these grounding activities, the potential for "spiritual", gentle, and positive experiences (and thus potential transmissions) will get pushed around easily by other people's more primitive emotions, and thus the more subtle, sublime states will be pushed out of mind because there is not a firm ground for them.

I see no reason that these types of phenomena can't happen over skype or on the phone. It's happened many times with me. I consider it more legitimate if I experience something I could not have predicted happening and it strongly correlates with the other person's energy and speech. That way I know that I probably wasn't scripting. It's happened often enough and in so many ways that I no longer really doubt it, but I don't pay excessive attention or even think about it too much, just use it in normal situations where I think it will benefit people, like being happy and harmless.

Metta,
Oliver

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/15/14 7:54 AM as a reply to Florian.
Hi Florian
The answer to all your questions is yes. But not now cos I'm knackered. But in principal, yes.

Peace

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/15/14 10:59 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:

I wonder if sometimes the gap is TOO BIG to perceive too. I remember my first Vajrayana retreat the teacher/guru was sort of a blank slate to me in terms of "vibes"-- seemingly no transmission at all. And yet, speaking informally to some students who'd been practicing for a few years, whether speaking about practice or just ordinary topics, I felt as massive a "transmission effect" as I did at the famous Zen master's talk in the auditorium.

I saw Karmapa few years ago and I still can't understand what happened for a moment there. I asked a monk about it but he also didn't give me an adequate answer.

I think when something like this happens in person, it is the mirror neurons at work.

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/15/14 7:38 PM as a reply to Florian.
I'm pretty sure I got it over skype with Kenneth. Before the chat, I had heard of Mahamudra as being this big-ass mind state that fixes everything ect. and nobody ever attains too except old, blind, Tibetan monks. 10 mins later, I was experiencing it myself in real time. The process was very simple, it was very like being the pilot of a plane lost in fog and being talked into land by air traffic control. Simple. Deceptively so.

Har!

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/15/14 8:36 PM as a reply to Howard Maxwell Clegg.
We see you!!

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/16/14 4:59 AM as a reply to Jeremy May.
How do you know you are seeing the real me?

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/16/14 4:02 PM as a reply to Howard Maxwell Clegg.
First, you must know the Real You.

Then, I won't need to answer that question.

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/17/14 5:41 PM as a reply to Jeremy May.
C'mon man, there is no real me, is this a Buddhist site or what?

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/17/14 6:39 PM as a reply to Howard Maxwell Clegg.
Still haven't investigated me?

No, not buddhist.

What Buddhist use to be.

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/19/14 12:10 PM as a reply to Jeremy May.
Jeremy May:
Still haven't investigated me? 

I respectfully refer you to my previous response.

No, not buddhist.

What Buddhist use to be.

Do I detect a note of sadness here?

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/19/14 2:21 PM as a reply to Jeremy May.
Jeremy May:
Still haven't investigated me?

No, not buddhist.

What Buddhist use to be.


Hi Jeremy

I'd really prefer you to stay on-topic and not derail threads.

You can always start a new thread to have this kind of exchange.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/19/14 3:32 PM as a reply to Florian.
Indeed. To that end, can I tell everyone about the time I went to an empowerment in the prescence of Mingar Rimpoche? Yes? Good.

I was not much interested in being empowered so I just practiced in the hall instead. But all of a sudden I felt a huge blast up my central column, it felt for all the world like someone had stuck a fire hose up my back passage and turned it on. I spent the next hour or so seemingly balanced on virtual column of water. I found I could adjust the intensity and my balance by playing around with the focus of my practice. I stumbled out and pretty much collapsed, I then rang my boss and said something like "I'm never coming back and you can't make me, Aaaaggg!" My girlfriend, who was sitting next to me, thought that it was hilarious.

I did not know about the A&P or the progress of insight at the time, I have always assumed that that room on that day had a particular power. What do you think Shaktipat or A&P?

RE: Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...
Answer
10/19/14 3:51 PM as a reply to Howard Maxwell Clegg.
SHAKTIPAT!