Confusion isolating access concentration from the jhanas - Discussion
As far as I can tell there are no two teachers who actually agree on the definition of Access Concentration. There's also plenty of disagreement on the definition of jhana... IMO, it's best to let go of such questions as much as possible, especially on the cushion. Stabilize your control and familiarity with whatever states arise, let whatever comes next show itself to you and then explore that. Naming states is not all that important in the grand scheme of things 
Thanks to both of you, for your insightful and deeply informative responses!
Eran, I am unable to shut my mind off when I sit down to do Concentration Practice -- it's as though there's an internal commentator who is constantly reporting on the -- or wants to report on the -- "progress" of the sit. It's as though he's hungry to have a conceptual grasp on the the progression of jhanas. I guess the best I can do is just catch that line of thinking when it occurs, note it, and put my mind back on the kasina and/or the experience of concentration upon the kasina.
I think my natural ability to concentrate is somewhat weak these days because I'm not very physically active. In the past I've found, especially after doing hatha yoga, that my meditations were much more focused. I think with more chi on reserve, my mind would be more grounded in my body, and less prone to fly off to self-critic mode when I resolve to sit (lack of physical vitality can cause an inefficiently overactive intellect). So, my goal on this front is to begin exercising on a regular basis so that I have enough chi to fuel my Concentration Practice -- so that when I sit down, my mind is more concentrated on staying present with the kasina as opposed to trying to intellectually get something out of the sit. I have to remember that it's the experience of sitting that counts for far more than the conceptual understanding of that experience.
Ian And -- thanks again for your clarity. I'm fairly sure that I have the 1st samatha jhana, if at least by comparing my subjective findings with MCTB. There is not much of a "wow" factor -- which I guess you'd call rapture -- as much as there is a conscious recognition of being "in tune" with something -- with the jhanic state perhaps. In that experience, there's a pleasantness that is subtly satisfying as opposed to being rapturous. That subtle satisfaction -- that "groovy" quality -- is what I believe is absent in access concentration. For me, in what I consider to be access concentration, there's more of a "dry" noting experience of staying, or attempt at staying, present with the kasina. There's no pleasantness -- just a continuous conscious attention upon object.
In a sense I feel as though now -- after trying to explain my meditative experiences above -- I have a bit more clarity with regard to the differences between access concentration and 1st jhana, just for my own sake. It's hard for me to continue with a practice if I can't keep track of my progress, for I fear falling into an "altered" state that is far from what my goal should be, and yet not recognize it as such (as something that detracts and needs to be avoided).
And as a matter of fact, that is what I believe may be happening when I reach what I consider to be the "2nd jhana." It's as though the powerful state of concentration upon the kasina that I was experiencing suddenly gave way to a wider and more inclusive state -- but one that has no solidly concentrated quality to it. My expectation of the 2nd jhana is for it to be more concentrated than the first -- more focused, yet the area of focus being wide. A deeper and more inclusive state of absorption if you will.
In the "2nd jhana" that I've been experiencing these days, there's a fairly inherently "pleasant" quality, but it's dissatisfying in the sense that the "rock-solid" concentration that I was experiencing in (what I consider to be) the 1st jhana has become diffuse and not as infused with energy -- not as alert.
However, after staying a while in 1st jhana, my mind naturally shifts to the above state. I suppose I could force my mind to stay exclusively on the kasina as my focus tries to widen/loses its fixation on the kasina, and see what happens...
But at any rate, my current goal is to get as deeply into the 1st jhana as I can -- know that I "have it" and "can't lose it." Only in this way do I believe I will make progress that counts, and is lasting.
I apologize if my explanation of what's going on in my Concentration Practice isn't clear/concise enough -- please let me know if you require further clarification of certain things I've said above.
Rashed
Eran, I am unable to shut my mind off when I sit down to do Concentration Practice -- it's as though there's an internal commentator who is constantly reporting on the -- or wants to report on the -- "progress" of the sit. It's as though he's hungry to have a conceptual grasp on the the progression of jhanas. I guess the best I can do is just catch that line of thinking when it occurs, note it, and put my mind back on the kasina and/or the experience of concentration upon the kasina.
I think my natural ability to concentrate is somewhat weak these days because I'm not very physically active. In the past I've found, especially after doing hatha yoga, that my meditations were much more focused. I think with more chi on reserve, my mind would be more grounded in my body, and less prone to fly off to self-critic mode when I resolve to sit (lack of physical vitality can cause an inefficiently overactive intellect). So, my goal on this front is to begin exercising on a regular basis so that I have enough chi to fuel my Concentration Practice -- so that when I sit down, my mind is more concentrated on staying present with the kasina as opposed to trying to intellectually get something out of the sit. I have to remember that it's the experience of sitting that counts for far more than the conceptual understanding of that experience.
Ian And -- thanks again for your clarity. I'm fairly sure that I have the 1st samatha jhana, if at least by comparing my subjective findings with MCTB. There is not much of a "wow" factor -- which I guess you'd call rapture -- as much as there is a conscious recognition of being "in tune" with something -- with the jhanic state perhaps. In that experience, there's a pleasantness that is subtly satisfying as opposed to being rapturous. That subtle satisfaction -- that "groovy" quality -- is what I believe is absent in access concentration. For me, in what I consider to be access concentration, there's more of a "dry" noting experience of staying, or attempt at staying, present with the kasina. There's no pleasantness -- just a continuous conscious attention upon object.
In a sense I feel as though now -- after trying to explain my meditative experiences above -- I have a bit more clarity with regard to the differences between access concentration and 1st jhana, just for my own sake. It's hard for me to continue with a practice if I can't keep track of my progress, for I fear falling into an "altered" state that is far from what my goal should be, and yet not recognize it as such (as something that detracts and needs to be avoided).
And as a matter of fact, that is what I believe may be happening when I reach what I consider to be the "2nd jhana." It's as though the powerful state of concentration upon the kasina that I was experiencing suddenly gave way to a wider and more inclusive state -- but one that has no solidly concentrated quality to it. My expectation of the 2nd jhana is for it to be more concentrated than the first -- more focused, yet the area of focus being wide. A deeper and more inclusive state of absorption if you will.
In the "2nd jhana" that I've been experiencing these days, there's a fairly inherently "pleasant" quality, but it's dissatisfying in the sense that the "rock-solid" concentration that I was experiencing in (what I consider to be) the 1st jhana has become diffuse and not as infused with energy -- not as alert.
However, after staying a while in 1st jhana, my mind naturally shifts to the above state. I suppose I could force my mind to stay exclusively on the kasina as my focus tries to widen/loses its fixation on the kasina, and see what happens...
But at any rate, my current goal is to get as deeply into the 1st jhana as I can -- know that I "have it" and "can't lose it." Only in this way do I believe I will make progress that counts, and is lasting.
I apologize if my explanation of what's going on in my Concentration Practice isn't clear/concise enough -- please let me know if you require further clarification of certain things I've said above.
Rashed
Ian And,
I believe I've experienced the 2nd samatha jhana based on your description of it (particularly in relation to the effortlessness aspect of it) -- however, as of late I've been having trouble concentrating, so it's been out of reach. Part of the reason why I've been having trouble concentrating has to do with a lack of intellectual clarity with regard to exactly what the differences are between access concentration and the 1st samatha jhana (I know -- I am one of those unfortunate few who get tied up in knots over this one!). You see, if I "start off on the wrong foot" thinking that I have the 1st jhana when really I'm in access concentration, then it can only lead to further hair-splitting down the road (if only in my own mind) with regard to exactly where I am on the Path. Simply put, I don't wish to delude myself with regard to my spiritual "level-of-attainment" (as much as I dislike the notion of attainments -- I like to think more in terms of being freed of the need to attain).
I actually think I have been micro-analyzing access concentration and the 1st jhana (learning to discern exactly at what point the shift takes place). I think some of it may have to do with not feeling rapture when I think I am in the 1st jhana (and probably actually am), which makes my mind ask the question "Am I still in access concentration"? This puts a dent early in my sit, undermining my sincere motivation to cultivate and rise through the jhanas.
Another significant reason for not recognizing myself to be in the 1st jhana when I am in it is the fact that my attention does not "narrow-in" superbly and keenly upon the object/kasina. I guess what I instead experience is a "jump" to a slightly wider field of focus than what I was in during access concentration, and feeling far, far, far greater stability, and the "power" to consciously focus my mind to the degree I wish (there's a limit, of course). It's as though my attention has finally been reined in, and I can actually control and "energetically direct" it to some extent.
The "2nd jhana" I described in my earlier post I think may be my mind thinking that it's in the 2nd jhana when it really has just entered the 1st (and this was due to my mistaking access concentration to be 1st jhana). At least this is the only reasonable explanation that I could come up with for myself... So, I think what I should be doing is deliberately concentrating upon the "new" kasina -- essentially a slightly larger field of vision than what I started out with when I sat down to meditate -- which is "introduced" during the jump from a.c. (I'm getting tired of retyping "access concentreation" ) to 1st jhana. I need to stop looking for effortlessness to occur -- it can't because I'm in the 1st and not 2nd -- and instead really focus on the sustained concentration aspect of it.
Thank you so much for the above advice! It's given me much-needed motivation to pursue my Concentration Practice with greater diligence!
As an afterthought, someone else (on a different thread) spoke of the value of using "a conservative approach." I think I could benefit noticeably from such an attitude -- I think my practice is more likely to deepen when I'm using a cautious approach that tends to err on the side of me having a little less than I think I do.
I believe I've experienced the 2nd samatha jhana based on your description of it (particularly in relation to the effortlessness aspect of it) -- however, as of late I've been having trouble concentrating, so it's been out of reach. Part of the reason why I've been having trouble concentrating has to do with a lack of intellectual clarity with regard to exactly what the differences are between access concentration and the 1st samatha jhana (I know -- I am one of those unfortunate few who get tied up in knots over this one!). You see, if I "start off on the wrong foot" thinking that I have the 1st jhana when really I'm in access concentration, then it can only lead to further hair-splitting down the road (if only in my own mind) with regard to exactly where I am on the Path. Simply put, I don't wish to delude myself with regard to my spiritual "level-of-attainment" (as much as I dislike the notion of attainments -- I like to think more in terms of being freed of the need to attain).
I actually think I have been micro-analyzing access concentration and the 1st jhana (learning to discern exactly at what point the shift takes place). I think some of it may have to do with not feeling rapture when I think I am in the 1st jhana (and probably actually am), which makes my mind ask the question "Am I still in access concentration"? This puts a dent early in my sit, undermining my sincere motivation to cultivate and rise through the jhanas.
Another significant reason for not recognizing myself to be in the 1st jhana when I am in it is the fact that my attention does not "narrow-in" superbly and keenly upon the object/kasina. I guess what I instead experience is a "jump" to a slightly wider field of focus than what I was in during access concentration, and feeling far, far, far greater stability, and the "power" to consciously focus my mind to the degree I wish (there's a limit, of course). It's as though my attention has finally been reined in, and I can actually control and "energetically direct" it to some extent.
The "2nd jhana" I described in my earlier post I think may be my mind thinking that it's in the 2nd jhana when it really has just entered the 1st (and this was due to my mistaking access concentration to be 1st jhana). At least this is the only reasonable explanation that I could come up with for myself... So, I think what I should be doing is deliberately concentrating upon the "new" kasina -- essentially a slightly larger field of vision than what I started out with when I sat down to meditate -- which is "introduced" during the jump from a.c. (I'm getting tired of retyping "access concentreation"
) to 1st jhana. I need to stop looking for effortlessness to occur -- it can't because I'm in the 1st and not 2nd -- and instead really focus on the sustained concentration aspect of it.At any rate, just keep meditating and looking for the other factors of a samatha absorption, and shoot for being able to go through the first four jhana levels, reaching the fourth which is quietly still, smooth, solid, and gives the impression that you could meditate like this forever. When you get to the fourth samatha jhana, it's not unheard of that you lose all sense of time while you are absorbed in it. That's one of the things I've notice about it. It's hard to miss the fourth samatha jhana, because the experience is so exquisitely sublime.
Thank you so much for the above advice! It's given me much-needed motivation to pursue my Concentration Practice with greater diligence!
As an afterthought, someone else (on a different thread) spoke of the value of using "a conservative approach." I think I could benefit noticeably from such an attitude -- I think my practice is more likely to deepen when I'm using a cautious approach that tends to err on the side of me having a little less than I think I do.