MCTB 2nd path dark night? wtf

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Ross A K, modified 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 4:55 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 4:55 AM

MCTB 2nd path dark night? wtf

Posts: 123 Join Date: 6/15/11 Recent Posts
I'm finding it really hard to even lift a finger, but this needs to get done.
suggestions or tips appreciated.
feels like I'm experiencing maps within maps (fractals?). regular activity going about my day has definite dukkha nana feel. But, then going up and down jhanic arc is awesome.
how can one go through the vipassana jhanas in jhanic arc all the way through PL5 (possibly Nirodha Samapadi?), and still be in dark night. then there's my meager attempts at AF which does help.
I'm ready for this roller coaster ride to end. I feel somewhat lost right now. Gonna keep practicing!
Thanks in advance.
-Ross
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 8:34 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 8:33 AM

RE: MCTB 2nd path dark night? wtf

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Aye, I've heard of a few people saying they had a rough time with 2nd path and I think that, since you mention fractals, it's more than likely that this is where you're at. Riding the jhanic arc to fruition is pretty automatic post 1st path, especially with solid practice going on, but it doesn't take much effort so don't let this trip you up 'cause it's those very sensations that you want to be looking into.

I'd be wary of thinking you're hitting the PL jhanas or NS as this is anagami territory, it's probable that you're getting into some sort of 'compound jhana'. There's a thread on KFD which may be of use to you here.

What worked for me with 2nd path was completely stopping practice for a few days, I had been going at it hell for leather after finding out I'd gotten 1st path but this seemed to flip it for me. Might be worth a shot? It might be useful to work solely on concentration for a few sits as this will probably help with negotiating DN too.

In my opinion, I'd avoid doing AF practice while working towards Paths, focus on one thing at a time and give it 100%. Although, I got my first major PCE shortly after 2nd path and I think that Trent said something similar so I could be wrong.

Best of luck!
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Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 9:38 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 9:36 AM

RE: MCTB 2nd path dark night? wtf

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Maybe you didn't get second path yet, I remember the period after stream entry was very very intense, consider that your intense experiences with cessations and so on might have been review. Your style of writing suggests an undertone of rush, which is not at all like my experience of the succeeding paths. First path is like the A&P of paths.

I don't have anything to say wrt jhanas as I did not master them in any way, but nowadays I think this would have been beneficial.

The very intense period only finished a few months later and I can pinpoint some things which seemed important to me at the time.

Grounding was very important. Energy was exploding everywhere and I really had to find a way of making it calm. This happened by opening the chest (in the front) and working with the energy channels in the legs. I always recommend The three amigos of rooting to those who are going through similar things.

At some point in the midst of first path dark night (which was super energetic and very disturbing), I got some good understanding of knowledge of disenchantment (I now sometimes call it "all feeling sucks"). There was nowhere to turn (everything felt disgusting), so I might as well have fun being here (which for some reason wasn't paradoxical at all).

A friend suggested going for a walk. That was important, too, and I do that all the time now. Walking in nature or in any nice scenario soothes and brings perspective to things.

That's when things calmed down, which brought equanimity and eventually more development.

Disclaimer: I have no idea if this applies to you, so you should season what I say with a grain of salt, some pepper, and a tad of basil, fry it in fresh italian olive oil, with some finely diced red, white and spring onions, and ... oh wait, what were we talking about? emoticon
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Ross A K, modified 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 4:54 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/13/11 4:54 PM

RE: MCTB 2nd path dark night? wtf

Posts: 123 Join Date: 6/15/11 Recent Posts
Thanks Tommy M.
Aye, I've heard of a few people saying they had a rough time with 2nd path and I think that, since you mention fractals, it's more than likely that this is where you're at. Riding the jhanic arc to fruition is pretty automatic post 1st path, especially with solid practice going on, but it doesn't take much effort so don't let this trip you up 'cause it's those very sensations that you want to be looking into.

I'd be wary of thinking you're hitting the PL jhanas or NS as this is anagami territory, it's probable that you're getting into some sort of 'compound jhana'.


Im not speculating about Pure land jhana, that is definitely there. NS is the one that I am unsure of and yes that would imply 3rd path which is why I'm skeptical of NS, not Pure land jhana though. for instance during a typical 1 hour sit I go up and down jhanic arc at least 3 times. can go up and down in as quick as 5 min, although thats super light. but even then there is the same solidification at the brow chakra at pl1, energy flow out from crown at pl2, back to brow chakra similar to pl1 but with more expansive panoramic field while coming out from the solidified center of the 3rd eye. back up to the crown, PL5, energy flowing out most noticeable connection of energy flowing out crown to heart chakra (most predominate). then resting in the all around pure mind like state that centers (if you can say that?) in the middle of the brain PL5. I've been trying to induce NS by hitting this sweet spot behind the 3rd eye. this is where perception gets shaky. NS could be possible but if so its only been a split second. which now makes sense that I could just be calling up the current paths fruition.

What worked for me with 2nd path was completely stopping practice for a few days, I had been going at it hell for leather after finding out I'd gotten 1st path but this seemed to flip it for me. Might be worth a shot? It might be useful to work solely on concentration for a few sits as this will probably help with negotiating DN too.


yeah Im trying really hard to be a slacker but the mind keeps seeing the 3C's. Its kinda hard to get out of practice mode. actually seems nearly imposable. masturbation helps though lolemoticon! then again, not i seem to have really awesome sits after doing the deed hahaha. seriously.

In my opinion, I'd avoid doing AF practice while working towards Paths, focus on one thing at a time and give it 100%. Although, I got my first major PCE shortly after 2nd path and I think that Trent said something similar so I could be wrong.


I'm actually finding the AF practice very useful for just this thing. asking HAIETMOBA grounds that dukkha. So I got a kinda hybrid thing going on, which from my investigative lurking, seems to be quite common.

Best of luck!

Thanks
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Ross A K, modified 10 Years ago at 9/15/11 9:42 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/15/11 9:42 AM

RE: MCTB 2nd path dark night? wtf

Posts: 123 Join Date: 6/15/11 Recent Posts
Ok so, I tried the uncompounded jhanic arc thing, and I can say it definitely set up a harder jhana. I did go all the way up to pl5. I'm open to the possibility that I could be compounding jhana still though. it's gonna take more time. Nick's advise was very good (as usual), and I really kept going back to making love, and making more love to the witness.

Also, during my evening sit last night, I experienced a feedback sort of thing. I was dwelling in the witness with the center point in the head then I felt a draw to the heart chakra area. when I brought my attention down to heart chakra, I experienced a extremely sharp ringing in the ears (feedback like sound, not, just usual ringing in the ears) and a tortuous feeling that my whole being was being ripped in half. this gave me a feeling of the most primal fear and terror. I almost got up. then I was like bring it on!. then I thought this is crazy, your gonna die lol. bring it on! I just sat through the torture and ended up in equanimity formless jhana and PL jhana.

My experience is that I have to let the mind incline further to the next jhana, (or I can hang out in a particular jhana, preferably 4th and up). this I assume is a form of volition/intention. so where is the line drawn for what is the letting go that is required to move to next jhana and compounding jhana? this is a lot of fun, and I'm glad you pointed it out.

we (bhavana society) have a jhana retreat coming up next week, so should be good time to really be as uncompounded as I can. that is if I don't finish up first. then it will still be a good time.

Peace - Ross
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Bruno Loff, modified 10 Years ago at 9/16/11 7:02 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/16/11 7:02 AM

RE: MCTB 2nd path dark night? wtf

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Yeah! I find fear to be a great indicator of where to look at! Where am I the most afraid to look? Look there.