Daniel vs Shinzen

Robin Woods, modified 5 Months ago.

Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 166 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
So - Daniel says that enlightenment ends at (his definition of) 4th path. Shinzen says that it is capable of 'endless enlargement'. 

I find it quite staggering that even within the small 'pragmatic Dharma movement' that there is so little consensus. 

who is right? Do people on this board still generally feel that there is development post 4th path? 
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Chris Marti, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 3994 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Before accusing these two of disagreeing, you really need to dig into the details of what each of those two people means. That's, you know, where the devil is.
shargrol, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 1575 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Just an observation about the original post... 

So you have two people (Daniel and Shinzen) who have done quite a lot of meditating and writting and you don't know who to trust/believe... and instead of really digging into their material to find out the nuances in their thinking, you decide to ask all of us here for our opinion?  That seems like going from bad to worse, like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.  emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

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Shall we just take a vote?  emoticon
Robin Woods, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 166 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
Hahaha - and this is exactly why I don't talk to anyone about meditation anymore in any context. And haven't been on here in years. 

​​​​​​​Bye!!
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Josef Kyle Chan, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 67 Join Date: 6/16/20 Recent Posts
Daniel has talked about this one before . I dug into his podcast interviews a while ago . Please check  Monk on a motorbike  episode : An Interview with Daniel Ingram Part Three . I hope it answers some of your questions .  I mean in the theravada  tradition there are different  opinions on topics like jhana . Whether the four formless jhanas are really needed , nimitta , level of absorption etc.  For me its just normal differences   and that there is  nothing " Staggering " about it . 


Here are the show notes ( Emphasis mine ) : 
Part Three

Opens with D Talking about the neurobiology of enlightenment and his own experiments with fMRIs and EEGs

9.00 mins) Daniel has started a research project looking at the data around mindfulness and ‘what can go right and what can go wrong’, including how the stages of insight can be useful to modern day psychiatry

22.00 mins) I ask Daniel why he (or any enlightened people) continue to practice?

26.24 mins) Can arahatship be reversed/lost?

32.58 mins) Are there further stages after arahatship?

35.50 mins) More about practicing after enlightenment with personal stories

47.34 mins) Daniel talks about his current practice (mostly fire kasina)

55.47 mins) Some advice on how to practice without craving or striving for attainments

59.20 mins) And how to navigate craving for a good job and other worldly stuff and not increase craving

1 hr.08.20) Is strict asceticism necessary for enlightenment?

1 hr.18) Daniel talks about his own past life experiences

1 hr.21) Is there an afterlife? Hmm!! Make of this one what you will! 
Robin Woods, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 166 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
wow - thanks for such a constructive and helpful answer. Funnily enough, I'm just on the monk on a motorbike episode 2!

​​​​​​​Thanks again. Really helpful.
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Siavash, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 1350 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
And Shinzen has said a number of times, that in terms of disidentification with mind and body (could be interpretted as Daniel's definition of 4th path), there is an end, and once you disidentified, you can't disidentify more, but in terms of other dimentions of development like morality and character, there is no end. He calls it the liberation dimention of enlightenment. So, no disagreement. Shinzen talks about it in one of his interviews on BATGAP, I guess the first one.
Robin Woods, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 166 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
Siavash
And Shinzen has said a number of times, that in terms of disidentification with mind and body (could be interpretted as Daniel's definition of 4th path), there is an end, and once you disidentified, you can't disidentify more, but in terms of other dimentions of development like morality and character, there is no end. He calls it the liberation dimention of enlightenment. So, no disagreement. Shinzen talks about it in one of his interviews on BATGAP, I guess the first one.
Interesting....

Thanks! :-)
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 1981 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
These two, Chris and shargrol are bullies! Can we ban them? Linda? 





​​​​​​​emoticon 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 602 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
4th path is the end of the journey as a self. Past that "insight into emptiness" (if this is the right way to even phrase it?) seems to continue to deepen. I don't think Daniel or Shinzen would disagree with this, based on what I have heard them say.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 5758 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I know you are just kidding, Papa Che, but I'll bite. No banning, but I will say this: although I think they both have great points, I can see how it might scare somebody away when put like that, especially as the first replies in a thread from someone who hasn't been active for a long time, and from senior practicioners who are popular and well respected on the forum. Joking about it with each other adds to that. It seems to me that Robin is open to learning about what Shinzen and Daniel actually mean with what they said, but sometimes it is easier to learn in conversation with others. It's more interactive. That's actually considered a great pedagogical strategy. It might be a good idea to explore what Robin means before accusing him of accusing others. emoticon 
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Chris Marti, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

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Well then, consider my wrist to have been slapped emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 3994 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
These two, Chris and shargrol are bullies! Can we ban them? Linda?

Someone needs to find a new schtick emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 1981 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Sorry emoticon this silliness is taking over me emoticon can't stop it! 
Either it's silly or it's gloom. Crazy stuff! emoticon 
Off to bed ... unconscious sleep, deep deep deep sleep, ... 
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Ni Nurta, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Robin Woods So - Daniel says that enlightenment ends at (his definition of) 4th path. Shinzen says that <strong>it is capable of 'endless enlargement'</strong>.
I have seen this ad somewhere... emoticon

Daniel carry Theravada's cognitive bias and Shinzen is preoccupied by figuring out what master Joshu meant when he said "Mu" so it should be obvious they talk about different aspects of completely different things.

who is right?

Joshu's dog Mu is right, that is for sure.
As for Daniel vs Shinzen I would say the only way to resolve this issue is putting them to the ring, cut chicken's head and see where it falls, closer to Daniel or Shinzen.
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streamsurfer, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 97 Join Date: 1/19/16 Recent Posts
If you want to cut it down with a very gross axe:
Both say there is an endpoint to the selfing process - maybe they use different frameworks for it, but neither of both seems very dogmatic (or unreflected) about the vocabulary. And afterwards there is an endless potential to refine the self and burn dat karma. At least this is what I learned from their online personas. There are probably some cute little fire devils hiding in the details if one looks closely emoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 2470 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Robin: So - Daniel says that enlightenment ends at (his definition of) 4th path. Shinzen says that it is capable of 'endless enlargement'. 

I find it quite staggering that even within the small 'pragmatic Dharma movement' that there is so little consensus. 

who is right? Do people on this board still generally feel that there is development post 4th path? 

Hi Robin, and it's cool that you came in out of the forest for this. I see that you have a lot of miles on the old odometer, so I think you may be kidding when you say you find it staggering that there is so little consensus on the big issues like this. You know it's like waving a red flag at a herd of bulls, at one level. That is probably part of what you mean when you say this is why you generally don't like to talk about meditation stuff at all lately. But I think you're right to be staggered, in a way: I'm staggered that there is any consensus at this level at all. We are all working hard in our particular ways to reach zero consensus on "What's It All About, This Enlightenment Shit?" You can see by this thread that we may be closing in on this. But surely the lack of consensus itself is a fascinating phenomenon. 

Your original formulation of the issue may have been too polemical, and a bit of a straw dog versus straw dog set up, to me. I suspect that both Daniel and Shinzen would feel your question of if there is "development post 4th path" deserved a rich and complex answer, but I also suspect that both of them would also say, for openers, "Well, duh, of course." It's the nature of the development where it gets interesting, I think. I'm not a four-path model guy, I'm a degree of love theist ever striving for the patience to really try to talk much about apophatic theology and the nothinged self to you fucking theravadans, but I do love the conversations, or at least what the conversations can be, here, among people who have put their work in on their path. I think it would be a damn shame if we couldn't at least try to talk about this stuff. I personally think one of the things falling under shinzen's "capable of endless enlargement" is the ability to play well with others, and DhO will always be on that frontier.

You opened this can of worms, man, and I'm glad you did. Given that you're the original poster, I would be very interested to hear your own thoughts, however endlessly enlarged, on whether there is development post 4th path. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
If we compare spiritual development to something maybe stranger but (hopefully XD) easier to imagine : development of hearing then we start from relatively narrow band of frequencies we perceive and and some other characteristics like signal to noise ratio on these frequencies and ability to resolve sounds.
In this comparison I would say 4th path is like hitting ceiling on both maximum and minimum possible frequencies along with "good enough" performance on other characteristics.

And with this comparison I would say both Daniel and Shinzen can be both right and wrong depending on what they refer to. So bloody chicken to resolve this issue it is.
Emil Jensen, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 268 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 What I was thinking of when I saw the title of this thread, was Daniel and Shinzen each standing in the MMA ring. Shinzen wearing a Japanese Aikido gi and Daniel boxing pants. Both bare knuckle and no mouth guards. 

The bell rings, Daniel leaps forward from the red corner. Shinzen is more awaiting, just chilling in the blue corner, seemingly deep into the third jhana.
Daniel starts spinning, leaping into the air to do a flying round house kick. Shinzen is still standing completely still with a smurk on his face - the foot hits him right in the face! But..but...seems to go right through! How is this possible?! MAN that man is enlightened!

Now Shinzen opens his eyes, a smurky smile on his face. 

"What's the matter, Ingram?" Shinzen says. "You've never heard about magICK?!"

As Shinzen finishes the last syllable he ducks under a left hook thrown by Daniel and gets to take his back. Shinzen's got a seatbelt hold around Daniel now, he's not gonna let him go. He suplexes Daniel, lifting him ud by the waist, bending backwards and slamming the back of his opponents head into the mat with a devastating thump. Daniel must now be wayyy into the 7th jhana and the ref is about to step in at any moment but Daniel still has his hands covering his face. As long as he's protecting himself, the ref won't call this a quick win for Shinzen. Daniel could still make a comeback.

Shinzen gets on top, throwing hammer fists at Daniel's covered face. But Daniel keeps squirming, making it hard for Shinzen to keep balance on top of Ingram. Shinzen's losing that equanimity he seemed to have just moments ago as Daniel was sending his foot through his emptiness filled face.

And Daniel gets to bumb Shinzen off, the crowd goes crazy!
Now he's got him in his guard, Daniel still on his back but this time with his legs around Shinzen. He can do a lot of nasty damage from here!
Shinzen is now trying to escape Daniels guard hold, trying to push those legs away and get out. But Daniel doesn't lose focus that easily, he's seemingly back in a lower jhana now, something like first or second. He looks ultra focused! He's mumblin!

"Namo thassa baghavato arahatho samma sam buddhasaaa... Namo thassa.."
Daniel is chanting! This doesn't look good for Shinzen, his opponent is summoning the power of the exalted one! Wait, is he summoning the power of the Buddha himself right now? OMG, the crowd starts chanting "Ingram"! It doens't look good for Shinzen now.

Daniel finally sees his cut to attack - Shinzen made the mistake of stretching one arm out to keep balance. Ingram wraps around it like it was his mind on a fire kasina nimitta! He's got him in a kimura - the classing shoulder breaking hold and it's in tight!! Shinzen's gonna have to tap if he wants to keep that shoulder.

But what's that?! What the F!! Shinzen's arm is now in a position I've never seen before. It's twisted around so much that the back of his hand is now dangling into his forehead coming from the back. Daniel was really gonna tore off his arm - in a friendly match! Damn, he doesn't screw aroun!
It looks ugly for Shinzen but he still has that smurky grin on, giving a thumbs up to the ref with his other hand. He's still in the fight.

"Ever heard of yoga, you stiff westener?!" Shinzen grins at Ingram.

This seems to set off Daniel even more who just spurts out:
"I'm more enlightened that you, you flexible sack of...bald!"

For the first time in the fight Shinzen seems unsettled. Daniel pointed out his baldness - and in a friendly match!
This is not gonna end well.

Shinzen rolls and somehow gets out of the kimura. They both get up and are now standing in front of each other with their hands raised, chests going up and down fast.

They've gained each other's respect by now and neither is eager to make a move yet.
But then.. what's that from Daniel's eyes? They're starting to glow. He's gonna use the laser eyes on Shinzen! Is his magick strong enough to withstand the burning temperature?! But he could go transparent again - watch out there in the crowd!

But Shinzen is not going transparent! He's starting to doublicate! Wait, is that even legal?
Now there's 10 of him already. He's ganging up on Daniel.

Daniel's eyes look ready to fire and Shinzen is now standing as a 25 man army around Daniel. 

The bell rings to end the first round. Shinzen turns into one man, Daniel's eyes cool down and they each give one another a pad on the back and go to their corners.


 
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streamsurfer, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 97 Join Date: 1/19/16 Recent Posts
Made my day! :'D
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 3192 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Delightful! Could rival Big Trouble in Little China if made into a movie script!

I think that:

a) Someone should reference MCTB1 So What's Full Enlightenment.
2) Shinzen and I use the term "Enlightenment" quite differently in the broad sense, with me narrowing it to an extremely fine definition focused entirely on perceptual changes that apprecaite immediate truths being automatically comprehended about the fundamental nature of sensations, and Shinzen's definitions, as I understand them, are more broad.
Three) Really, just practice and see for yourself which definitions help you to reduce suffering, find happiness, be more kind, wise and skillful, etc. Clearly, opinions on which definitions work best vary widely, and I think that's totally cool.

Best wishes!

​​​​​​​Daniel
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 5 Months ago.

RE: Daniel vs Shinzen

Posts: 252 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Please, place (three) at the top of the Home page.