RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Ian, modified 8 Days ago.

Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 5 Join Date: 7/15/20 Recent Posts
When I was 14 I became very interested in lucid dreaming and astral projection. At that time (pre-google), there was a forum based site (much like dharma overground) which had "courses" which was called something like astralprojection.com, not sure if it is still around. 

I took as many of the courses as I could, which included a lot of meditative practices, concentration on the breath while falling asleep, fire kasina, dream recall while waking up, and noting during the day. I had no idea I was meditating while doing this, I just thought it was a way to achieve astral projection (wake induced lucid dreaming if you prefer), which I was striving for. The goal was to be able to be conscious of one's "astral body" leaving the physical one while falling asleep. 

While I was never able to achieve this, I did get very good at lucid dreaming and remembering tons of dreams every night with increasing clarity, but it took a lot of practice and required remaining hyper-aware during the day. I think the instruction was to not engage in day-dreaming, and remain aware of one's body, which was hard for me being an angsty teen in boring school most of the time. 

Eventually I became more interested in the opposite sex than astral projection and stopped practicing. Although, I continued to have the occasional lucid dream where I would fly around, jump through walls, and generally just have fun. 

A few years later I started getting sleep paralysis. The first time I was terrified, but I seemed to remember an old forum post saying that this was a short cut to leaving one's body, since the body was already asleep. The key was to just relax and focus on whatever seemed to be happening. The next time it occurred it was early in the morning, I had gotten up to use the bathroom and when I went back to sleep I immediately had strong sleep paralysis, I was terrified but remembered the instruction to relax.

I focused on my breath and surrendered to the situation. I started to feel and hear a soft cacophony of noise, almost like a buzzing, almost like a section of horns in an orchestra warming up. I focused on this sound and it grew in volume, as it did there was an associated vibrational energy growing throughout my body. I kept focusing on this sensation and noise and it got more and more intense until it crescendoed and it felt as though I was being pushed up through a mesh screen. After some resistance, I was "through" and I floated to an upright position, opened my eyes, and it was as though I was in a dream version of the room I was sleeping in, and there was a dream version of my body I had just left. It was extremely vivid and clear. I was elated and jumped through the wall and started flying above the forest in the moonlight. 

Ever since then, some variation of this will happen quite often. Usually multiple times a month, without me trying. Sometimes I will get sleep paralysis and leave my body and immediately open my eyes to a hyper real lucid dream version of my bedroom, sometimes upon leaving my body, I will still be paralyzed and be shooting/tumbling through blackness and a dream will slowly form around me. Many times, it's not very clear, my vision is muddled, and the dream is hard to sustain. 

Recently I've started reading MCTB and practicing every day, focused mainly on concentration as that is what needs the most work. But I've noticed that my dream awareness, lucid dreaming, astral projection, whatever you want to call it, is benefited from sustained practice. I've even started practicing while dreaming, when I remember to, which always leads to more bodily and energy stuff. Sometimes I will leave my body again, even though I'm already dreaming, and the process seems to continue. 

I'm curious if anyone can related to these experiences, if there are ways I can harness my dream life to benefit my practice, and if there are any resources for sleep and dream yoga. 
thumbnail
J W, modified 8 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 345 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
This is maybe not exactly the same as what you are talking about... I cannot lucid dream on command or anything like that, though sometimes I have really vivid dreams. 
But last night I "physically" died in my dream, and it was super crazy. Unfortunately I don't remember much of the context, but I was quite aware of what was happening while I was dying.  What does it mean? Anyone else experienced this?

​​​​​​​(sorry I don't mean to hijack your post, just adding on an additional question, lol)

EDIT to try to provide a little more detail: all I remember is that it was extremely epic and cathartic, and after I had died, there was the option to go back into the post-death state, but I chose not to. I wish I could remember with more clarity but that's all I've got.

EDIT #2:
​​​​​​​Regarding your experience Ian, that sounds really cool, I have always wanted to astral project but never fully been able to. 
Regarding your question, there's certainly correlation and connection between the dream world and meditation. The Tibetans say that every night we fall into clear light and experience emptiness directly, we just can't remember it most of the time.  It makes perfect sense that daily meditation practice would lead to increased clarity in the dream state and near-dream state, and I have noticed this as well.  Best of luck to you!
Ian, modified 8 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 5 Join Date: 7/15/20 Recent Posts
Very interesting JW! I have definitely died in my dreams before, sometimes followed by waking up, sometimes falling back into the darkness of sleep. The first time I remember this happening I was very very young and had just lost a knife fight with a ghost, cursing his name as my consciousness faded, then waking up in my bed. 

​​​​​​​It's definitely hard to imagine being conscious while not in REM sleep, but I have heard that this can be a thing. 
George S, modified 8 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 1253 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Very interesting experiences and practices Ian. I've not practiced much lucid dreaming but the other night I was able to resolve (partially?) a deep emotional issue in dream. Issue was angry father and I lucidly decided to merge with him and fully experience his anger. Was cathartic and I don't feel it so much as an external threat any more. Seems like one could set intention and do this with other issues. Threat simulation theory of dreams makes sense to me, noticing early dreams are recent stuff and late dreams are deeper stuff. Also dreams do not become lucid if too pleasant, needs an unpleasant hook to become lucid and resolve issue? 
Hector, modified 7 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
I enjoy keeping a dream dairy and writing down stuff to analyze at a later time. Sometimes it helps me think through
complex issues like people and mathematics. My favorite time to experiment is upon first waking in the morning,
​​​​​​​then going back to bed and doing experiments.
Ian, modified 7 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 5 Join Date: 7/15/20 Recent Posts
Do you wake up early for a certain period time and then go back to sleep for "doing experiments"? Would love to know any specifics practices you keep.

I am way more likely to have sleep paralysis, OBEs, and lucid dreams in the morning, probably because REM sleep dominates at that time in the sleep 
Hector, modified 6 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
No, I just stay still and in place when I wake up, it makes it easier to re-enter whatever dream I had or REM.
If I move or think too much I drop out of that nice state and it's harder to re-enter.
(For me I can actually 'see' the state, because my visual field oscillates at around 2-4 Hz left and right when I am in that state)

Specific practices -
  • trying the Loch Kelly change of viewpoint OOB mode, can I see my body from the ceiling, from outside etc
  • writing down the stories and see what my unconscious is thinking (using this Jungian dream interview technique)
  • starting from a base camp and exploring, then writing down the exploration and using the same technique as above to analyze
  • visiting scenes from books or other interesting universes, got this idea from a local drumming circle
  • looking at the murk, fire kasina style
  • asking questions "what is this" and then seeing what kind of imagery plays out
  • mapping out the different kinds of sleep states, light sleep to REM to deep sleep, kinda hard but measurable withan external sleep device, I use a garmin watch I think it tracks motion and heart rate, not gold standard like wet eeg electrodes. This idea came from Andrew Holecek's dream yoga book, but I find it less restful, very efforting for me, especially since morning hypnopompia seems more natural to me than night hypnogogia. Lunchtime hypnogogia is easier if it's a light lunch nap.
  • kinda fun - if people are nearby talking to them from lucid dreaming state, sometimes I ask them to wake me up, then checking if what I heard while sleeping was the same as what they said.
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 6 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Yo, Hector!

Nice to see you again! I got to know some pretty weird territorries "out there / in there" since last time we spoke like half a year ago, right? Saw that you also did your digging and found out about thogal? But let's just talk from 1st person perspective leaving out the traditional lingo, ok?

Just so you know after loooong time, experiments and visiting various fractal realms both rotating in empty vacuum and covering the universe up to the horizon of events, finally I got to appreciate your loosely uttered remark that adding Shinzen's feel in to hypno and hypo visions will make them go autonomous :-))))). This along with your feet-feel technique thought me how to keep a stability of the vision. Still don't know however if this is LD when I fall asleep during meditation or a real-deal Fruit of contemplative life described as mind-made body or maybe there is no difference, we would have to pin the brain to fMRI or something. Since we are in this thread - it can be astral projection as well?

All forms of perception shift from visual appearances to tactile/emotional phenomena seems to stabilize the visions, so if I have a body I never look at anything inside the landscape directly. I also keep Loch Kelly's advice to establish a panoramic non focused gaze and "feel in" the source of creation. For example "where did this mountain came from" or "what was *before* that fractal formed itself". This prolongs the vision and also make the beings inside the vision less zombie-like, they stop using "word salad" language just producing correct grammar without any content, but become more "real".

Try this out: when the net forms itself from the pixels, zoom in either into the "eye of the net" or into the "contours" and they will morph probably. Let's assume poetically that the net is the protoform of all interdependent realms. I learned that - at least for me - to zoom in and fly inside the net means "feeling" either (1) one of its "eyes" or it's (2) "contours" or (3) "the pearls in the intersections".

So it's not about seeing them, because it implies duality, but "feeling them from within" or even "becoming one with them". Then you can either become one of these landscapes or realms or end up in a dream made body inside one of them. How great is that! :-) Hope it's also helpful for others in this thread.
​​​​​​​
Hector, modified 6 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Whoa great to see you back hae1en! I have been wondering what happened to you since last year!
Yes, been experimenting a lot since then and it's a lot less confusing emoticon, still not that familiar with Tibetan terms so not sure what thogal is
so agree on not using traditional terms, I found them confusing back then and still do. Will try out your suggestions and see what happens!

As to falling asleep during meditation, I asked a TMI teacher what was dullness and he said it was the hypnogogia ('when thoughts become nonsensical'), so I think this territory is what people try to avoid for some kinds of meditation
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 5 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
 Hector, but as you know, there is an important lesson in dullness. And it's as important as to stop dullness ;-). Like learning to drive in darkness if you are a truck guy, or when going home everyone is on LSD and you are the only one who smoked only dope ;-)).

I already learned what mental faculty recognizes (is clearly aware of) dullness in abidharmic terms. It's just mindfulness (sati) and clear comprehension (sampojanna). In higher absorbtion jhanas, when thinking (vitaka and vicara) disappear, the texts still say: "With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert". But I also asked Thanissaro Bhikku about it and he says that sometimes it's like flickering, vitaka and vicara/thinking goes off and on again to reevaluate absorbtion factors, as if the mind kept them in the periphery, like hand half withdrawn from a glove.

Some onepointed "unconsciouss" jhana teachers like Ajahn Brahm say in general that in real absorbtion you only discern what was in the jhana after reemerging. Only afterwards  super mindfulness sees clearly both what was inside jhana and microseconds just after, when dependent origination, step by step, kicks in again. Do you play sometimes to see if you can capture the DO sequence when going out from a dream? These are great seconds to practice with LDs!

And of course it's different to fall into a full blown lucid dream during meditation than simply doze off. Most people see the dullness after they snap out of it, but seeing it clearly upon entrance and within, these entry seconds are also great to practice.

When you write back, can you tell me a bit more what did you mean last time saying you do noting in LD, why and how, maybe some example? My problem right now is when I get duration, I forget the vision. I think I forget rather the end part of it, not the entry. It's like some processing or long term memory acquisition is impaired when sleeping. Any hints beside journaling?

Lack of duration/stability, memory loss these all can be called aspects of dullness. 
 
Hector, modified 5 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
re: noticing the DO sequence, usually not during the dream, but thinking about it afterwards and
using my regular conscious brain to walk backwards the chain of symbols and what's been going on in my life.
During the dream itself it has this funny consistent logic, sort of an spelling auto-complete feel, that upon
waking seems at first nonsenical but when you work back the chains of causality it makes sense in the larger context.

During the LD I have to ping pong between the different sides of the dullness to make any sense of it.
Sort of like diving under the sea to experience it, then surfacing to process it with my regular conscious brain.
Harder to do from night time LD, but easier to do in meditation or afternoon naps. On the 'air' side I can
make intentions and process imagery, on the 'under water' side it's more just taking notes as to what is going on.
Not really 'noting' Shinzen style but making a memory log 'taking notes' of what is going on for when I surface from the dullness again.
Same skill really, in noting it's observing what comes up, in LD it's also observing what comes up but stashing away
the story for later analysis upon waking, paying attention to what's salient in the scene and the details of what is going on,
​​​​​​​what kind of emotions are appearing etc.
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 5 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector, I like the way you can use technical jargon and spice it up even with mathematics, but on the other side you are this natural born jungian analyst chasing your shadows as a human being. For me, the more time I spent in this layer of reality, where everything seems to be made up of geometric figures with no emotional, even no semantic glossing, the less I believe this mind is a human. Btw I disappeared because of a divorce and spent a lot of time not-being-anywhere.

I also do noting /one-word memory log the way you do then. Last dream: jelly like spheres - contours - laceration - more spheres with vibrational spirals - the whole field vibrating - creation of sensation of 3 dimensions - relief like bulging protoforms of landscape - a wall in front of my late grandmother's house - no door - walking through wall - dream unstable, gasping - feel the inside of the wall, restabilisation - inside of apartament - hyper real objects like covid masks, dozens of them ;-) - no grandma - remembering game plan! - go see Lama Lena :-)
Hector, modified 5 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Thanks will check out Lama Lena, I'm not that familiar with Tibetan styles, which one is closest to Holecek's dream yoga?

For me the dream objects usually mean something, e.g. this object with symbols represents my feelings about mystical ways of thinking
and the landscape that is very modern looking is about finding a place for it in my contemporary secular scientific mind lol. The autocomplete function re-interprets the complex aggregate (e.g. 'traditional beliefs')  into a picture, but I can figure out what the picture means by applying analysis.
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 2 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector
No, I just stay still and in place when I wake up, it makes it easier to re-enter whatever dream I had or REM.
If I move or think too much I drop out of that nice state and it's harder to re-enter.
(For me I can actually 'see' the state, because my visual field oscillates at around 2-4 Hz left and right when I am in that state)
Can you explain what do you mean?
Hector, modified 2 Days ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
I know I am in a particular hypnopompic state when my visual field oscillates as if I was looking from slightly left of my head to slightly
right of my head alternating at 2 cycles per second or maybe same as my heart rate.
I have no idea why it does it, it just started happening a couple months ago
when I automatically started observing what was going on in my visual field when I wake up.
In that state of mind it makes it easy to do experiments like visualization, changing view points, see visions etc, it's like a very
accessible lucid dreaming state. If I get too aroused it vanishes and the murk collapses into a the more
usual monocular vision kind of noise field. It is as if stereo vision was composed of alternating
left and right views at a very low frame rate that speeds up and fuses in normal waking state. Seems to affect mental images too.
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 1 Day ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
So you mean your vantage point is changing/oscilating like in the Necker's cube, but in relation to subject, not to object?
With waking vision, this is how space is constructed, right?, by overlapping slightly different view coming from left and right eye. So that would be a pointer you are about to enter 3rd (3D?) screen?

It's interesting you are writing about your head refering to vantage point, whereas the head is also a sensory construct and after Loch's excercises you already know we only learn to think this is where the central point of view is for human beings. Are you able to observe after waking up the moments when the notion of having a head/body is just about to be constructed?
Hector, modified 1 Day ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Yes it feels like the parts of the brain that construct 3D are in some kind of low power mode and about to wake up
to start constructing 3D vision but no quite ready yet so it just runs slowly alternating between left and right eye points of view.
I haven't tried it while waking, still experimenting with 'headless way' (have to google that, after asking questions about it) and
'boundless space' and just shifting the point of view around in 360, from other parts of the room etc. I consider 'head' the ego point
and not the physical head. It's like a camera that can be moved around. The virtual head still has stereo vision it seems because
the mental images also oscillate, so that probably means the same visual circuitry is probably being recycled for physical vs constructed vision.
​​​​​​​How do you experience the steps that make up stereo vision?
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 21 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
In zen we have this koan: "Where is your back?" and of course "What is your original face?" and "Who is carrying this body around?" "Is it me looking at you or is it you looking at me?" to break the spell of center sitting in your head. It's similar to Loch's glimpses regarding looking from the ceiling just that it has to be more locked in for the student to "pass" the koan and one has to be able to act from this mindset in a specific way to prove themselves instead of just verbally explaining.

So I've been doing this. Actually I don't see much difference between so called "physical" (real?) and constructed (mind-made) vision. Real means intersubjective? As if in Kant's ding-an-sich, how to translate it, noumena, the ungraspable material substrate beings project their mind categories onto?

When awake another fun thing to do with space is separating the sensation of space from dots/colors/textures/objects. The whole screen can become flat then. I only wonder if there are people (currently not during their mushroom trip), who can lock in this flat perspective for longer than few seconds, without switching back and forth. Because for me it's then more like space is switching from background/periphery back to center of attention. I think formless realms like J5 are exactly the opposite thing but locked in - space is in the center of attention and the harder the jhana the sensory content is more pushed back to the periphery. Like tortoise legs hidden, but still latently there (tibetan analogy).
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 21 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
In lucid dreaming and hipnagogia there is defenitely a phase when space is glossed over everything. For example the net can be flat and b&w, but then a bit of 3D is applied and I call this phase an egg box hahaha, no really, it's more like it's just bulging. Then it expands to cover the whole landscape and warps to encompass everything as spaces out of their nature do :-) Soon enough it's ready to start to resemble something - some semantic glossing is applied and there is BIRTH - isn't it a cute bunny? Then using your concept (yes, indeed!) one can add feel in and guess what happens? It's aaaalive!!!

I noticed someting recurring and I will give en example, in one session reality started to form from the net and through one of it's eyes flew into a kitchen, where everything was still black and white. There was enough lucidy there to form an inention of color, so it became cartoonish and the vision of the plate with dozens of fruit started to rotate in space. Then I remember also lucidly formed intention using a word photorealistic (I remembered that Neko used it ;)). When it became photorealistic, bam, there is my avatar and I have a body again to go venture into the dreamland.

I'm not sure when but my mind still seems to think there is a moment, where bodies are a law of nature! This is how deep the rabbit hole goes and how deep the conditioning is. But there are ways to go around it. Like to make more avatars and be in many bodies at once to break the spell of having one. Etc. But sometimes there is photorealistic landscape but with no avatar - the deliberative speech aspect and commands are impossible there. Maybe the need to control is something that supports the birth of self..
Hector, modified 19 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Haha was just reading this Michael Taft piece on tips for playing with fire kasina today
https://deconstructingyourself.com/fire-kasina-hints.html
Got excited playing with the triangle network thing just now and woke up to write an
email to my friend about it.

I realize the net / fractally looking glowing thing is like what you said
a kind of in between state just before REM. It is really beautiful on it's own
but I can ping pong between that and REM and it looks like stepping
through a star field of glowing snowflakes and fractal triangles into a black and white scene.

Last year the other thing you called Indra's net in that post was something else, I think
possibly a different kind of REM that is high resolution, 3D and super sharp and definitely
has a feel of infinite depth in Z. This pre-REM triangles for me is similar to what you said,
2D looking, more like a Mandelbrot set rendering but with snowflakes and triangles that
are XY space filling and interconnected spirally flows. It looks more like the light from doing fire kasina than the light from doing breath meditation which is lower frequency and slow waves.  These 2D triangle flows are also more
reliably reproducable during meditation and sleep than the super sharp 3D triangles in space.
Tim Farrington, modified 19 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 2397 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
I just wanted to say that being a fly on the wall of this thread is one of the sweetest joys on DhO right now. Thank you for this beautiful, fascinating, inspiring, and educational ongoing conversation. (Now ignore me and get on with it, lol.)
Hector, modified 19 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
You gotta post random stuff emoticon, the last time you did it my brain grabbed on to all the random ideasand made a really fun and exciting construct out of it and I learnt a bunch of mind tools from it.
Tim Farrington, modified 18 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 2397 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
lol, that was not random stuff, amigo, that was cutting edge bardo topology, and state of the linguistic performance art attempts to formulate glimmers of vast, epistemologically undocumented, ontologically ambiguous Deep Shit! 

On this thread, though, I am just the truck guy learning to drive in darkness, as hae1en put it, sitting here while everyone is on LSD and I'm the only one who smoked only dope. It's good dope though.

Seriously, I'm happily verklempt, talk among yourselves. Thanks for this thread Ian, you set off a lovely landslide.
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 18 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Yeah, Tim thanks for throwing in your 5 cents, sometimes when posting I felt like looking for Hector in a giant palace-theatre with ten towers and I could swear that before coming in I heared there was a party with all those cool people talking about secrets of OOBE (where are you, Ian?), but when I arrived... all these empty floors and terraces feel a bit awkward and if there is a party, it must be elswhere and I'm not invited :-).

​​​​​​​
Ian, modified 5 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 5 Join Date: 7/15/20 Recent Posts
Oh I'm definitely still here, just feel a bit overwhelmed by the amount of technical detail you guys have documented in your practice. Most of my experiences are quite murky and my memories of them are only reliable for a few days. I definitely haven't been able to measure ocsillations, or say exactly what stage of sleep I am in. 

I have noticed that when I get sleep paralysis and am able to control the feeling of physically leaving my body and entering a lucid dream or into some kind of deep abyss type thing, it almost feels like i'm flexing a muscle that is somewhere between my lower spine going into my brain. I have had hints of this 'hidden muscle' while doing concentration practices, especially when cultivating joy. 

​​​​​​​Anyways, I got a little lost along the way but am glad this thread has been of use. 
Hector, modified 4 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Interestingly I learnt how to generate pleasure from my lower belly to my head while dreaming first and then only figured out how to do it
in meditation a couple months later by remembering the sensation.
Tim Farrington, modified 18 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 2397 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
hae1en, this IS the party. And it's a great fucking party. Party on.
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 17 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector, I've never done fire kasina - have you with same success like with hipnagogia? I just borrow the language sometimes, because it's a similar phenomena, just in dream/vision formation you don't bootstrap of anything other than the mind.

However, however! I noticed that when the vision appears in meditative absorbtion (sitting up), the net can appear just because some random sensory input presented itself, like when the tree shadow behind the window moves away from your eyes. 

I wonder how you can tell the light textures of fire kasina from breath nimitta? Can you show some examples from giphy.com? My breath nimitta is simply panoramic or nebulous, sometimes but very rarely with clear cut edges, when it changes to perfect circle.

And now I think you make a distinction between XY space geometry (triangles) and hyperrealistic XYZ. Why don't you think it's just a function of maturity of the vision that it becomes more 3D if mind is still enough not to disturb the Pleiades bathing and they don't escape? :-)



BTW in dzogchen they believe the geometry you see will either reflect the current elemental state you are in (triangles are fire), the lacking one or the excess one (I don't know exacly). I don't see triangles. I see a lot of round shapes, sometimes with jelly and water textures. 
Hector, modified 12 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Also, speaking about Zen how do you figure what is Makyo and what is not?
thumbnail
hae1en, modified 10 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/13/19 Recent Posts
Hector
Also, speaking about Zen how do you figure what is Makyo and what is not?
I know it can't be satisfactory, but in a sense everything is makyo (illusion?) since it's all transient phenomena, both hard science and our visions. But in another sense these exact phenomena are manifesting themselves just like this, so they are not makyo.

If we want to know what our triangles are I would say that the triangles are just |> 

But it can sound too philosophical :-)

---

I guess apart from teacher being there to tell you to keep looking for a deeper answers to koans and your own maturity which at some point will also show you that confirmation and disconfirmation are also just phenomena, so you can let it go... I think for my own sake that pragmatically makyo can just mean something that is causing craving, separation from the world and suffering.

If science, wars and world hunger, which seem very real, do it to us, then it means there is some illusion involved. However, it's also possible to channel the pain into something useful and help the world, and then sense of separation disappears, so mayko disapears. 

Same with the nimittas, imagery and visions in practice - depends how we use them, right? Some of the images you describe supposedly are marks of success in letting go of certain self-aspects. Like the string of pearls I think was considered sign of success in one of the brahmaviharas in esoteric Theravada. So not makyo? But then the next seconds come after waking up from the visions and they are so cool and better than reality, so now they are a sign of makyo :-).

---

Maybe your question comes from the longing for the objective truth and real reliable solid world somewhere, so we can discard the illusions, focus on reality and then we are not lost in - how Chris puts it sometimes - mystery?

The second post I need to digest.

 
Hector, modified 4 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
Oh my Makyo question was more about confusion as to what to do with imagery, just seems very conflicting and
was curious how a zen practioner like yourself deals with hypnogogia and mental imagery.

From my Mahamudra friend - "ignore the lights of Vegas"
From the Vishudimagga - "look until you see a stable crystal fan in space"
From what I guess is Makyo - "ignore the lights of Vegas"
From that Michael Taft post - "See In" but don't do anything or "See in" and modify dots if going the siddhi route, but not before stream entry
From western esoterica / Jungian - do lots of mental imagery and decode
From the pragmatic dharma class I attend - "dullness is bad when doing TMI"
From what I can guess from the Holecek Dream Yoga book - it's bardo, is bardo bad or some kind of intermediate illusion
From the Tibetan Space / Time book : visualize giant people in the sky

So I am rather confused due to my ignorance about the various practices as to the best practices with mental imagery. I guess it depends on the kind of practice once is doing. I like the kasina ones so will probably continue with that route.

Also not sure about the string of pearls, I don't think I mentioned it anywhere? The green glowing photoreceptor balls are more like
a hexagonal grid of optimal 2D sphere packing and not a string of pearls.
That link you posted goes to a book, will get a copy of it, but no description of what it is.
I'm definitely not (deliberately) doing any letting go of self so definitely not any attainment of any kind emoticon

Thanks for taking the time to explain all this stuff, hae1en!
Hector, modified 13 Hours ago.

RE: Sleep, Dreams, Out Of Body Travel, And Practice

Posts: 62 Join Date: 5/9/20 Recent Posts
I think I probably have the same success rate with fire kasina and hypnogogia mostly because I learnt how to do it with drums first.

(Edit: Also not sure what you mean by success - in generating light, in seeing repeatable phenomena, in entering REM? Also I learnt the adding
emotions idea from drum journeying, so the idea wasn't orignally mine, lots of books on the topic google shaman and drums or that trance-portation book above recommended to Ian. I think by your definition I switched to hypnogogia and hypnopompia, since I use mental generated images rather than an external kasina, with higher success at afternoon naps hyponogia or morning hypnopompia, the latter maybe 80% of the time if I remember to have an intention to do something rather than just watching the lights and noting phenomena)

With drums the light is generated probably from leakage from the temporal lobe. I think the breath light is similar,
low frequency light from leakage of the temporal lobe. Vipassana and fire kasina look the same, just smaller and more compact and higher frequency.
Both seem to be drawn from the Gabor family of distributions of oriented filters. The breath one is just the lowest frequency mode with
phase shifting over time and the fire one is small, compact and like the frequency response to random input (in that wikipedia page
they have the yellow and blue low frequency Gabor and a higher frequency one for the Chinese Characters).

Breath or shamatha or shikentaza light or after the pleasure feeling has cooled down to contentment.



Fire kasina  like the top left which are all Gabor like but just small and round, like a little hexagonal snowflake with rays out from it a pulsing star.
I don't use an LED or candle anymore, I just hunt for the light somewhere between my eyebrows
when I start my meditation instead of looking at lights or an object.
Sort of defocusing the eyes like when looking at a random dot stereogram.
I think it's a different part of the visual cortex being activated. The breath light is like the top left two, just huge and bright and slow waves. The triangles look like higher frequency things like the top right of the left image.

Drum journeying images are also composed of this kind of high frequency stuff, just synchronized with the music.




I just remembered from last night there is another one, a field of green dots.
I think from the appearance and layout of the dots they might be an after image of the medium wavelength photoreceptors of the cones
of the eye, just not in straight lines like image C (and not rods, those are sensitive to more blue light), definitely very spherical and more like a circle packing layout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_packing this is also repeatable so probably some kind of stimulus rather than a dream.




Sorry if I use math, science and bio terms, it's just the belief framework that resonantes most for me when trying to make
sense out of all these things.

Breadcrumb