RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 1 Month ago.

When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
I just found a treasure in the Daniel Compilation. It's in the Dharma Overground Community/Hurricane Ranch Dialogue I. This is four way conversation that covers a lot of topics, but what caught my attention was the mention of Insight Disease and the interchange between Kenneth Folk and Daniel Ingram. Specifically the mention of an experience Kenneth Folk had, that happened in exactly the same way to me. I think everyone that has done a lot of practice will have a moment in which they reached the same insight, even if not in the same manner. Those that haven't are wishing to reach it. I hope that this is helpful either way. (I've edited the conversation to the relevant parts and in the original, there's a lot of talking in between but the meaning has not been changed.)

KF: The search is over! There’s no more becoming in this or any future life. Because that’s what it feels like! You know you’re off of that ride, and what a relief.

DI: Yeah. I mean, from a sort of cynical point of view, I talk about this as Insight Disease. You catch Insight Disease essentially when you cross the Arising & Passing Away. I mean, that’s when you’re really inoculated with the virus. You know what I mean? And when you get stream-entry, you’re really screwed. Know what I mean? The only thing that cures that and really cures that in that particular way and that particular disease is doing THAT. So from the end point of view, getting Arhatship or Siddha or whatever — THAT is what cures the Insight Disease that started all those many years ago when some poor sonuvabitch crossed the Arising & Passing Away. You know, second vipassana jhana, the point of no return.

KF: Shortly before, I was just talking about walking under the pepper tree in New Mexico. Several days before this, I had been reading a book about Bankei, the Japanese Zen master, and I was very struck by something I read there. He advised his students to—I believe he said “dwell in Buddha mind”. He said, try dwelling in Buddha mind for thirty days. “I believe you will find after thirty days that you can scarcely live without it.”

KF: It really struck me! And I thought, you know, I’m pretty sure I know what he means by dwelling in Buddha mind. So I did that, and on about the fifth day, that whole thing unraveled. This problem I had … you called it …

DI: Insight Disease.

KF: Insight Disease. It went away that day and has not returned. This is now 2009.

​​​​​​​DI: Yeah. To be done with Insight Disease, yeah, I mean, you know, there’s definitely lots of ways to conceptualize and thus frame one’s practice and thus direct one’s attention and intention, which is powerful. I mean, to simply be done and to think of oneself as being done now and manifesting being done now does have a, if that’s what you’re talking about, or to manifest the doneness of this simply now does, if you’re conceiving of something like that, does have a beautifully aesthetically pleasing and philosophically pleasing immediacy to it. The only question that might arise would be (a) is that going to be done by ignoring such things as those strata of mind that may not be penetrated giving some validity to the many strata of mind model? And (b) would it be done at the level of delusional sort of scripting oneself into being done for the sake of being done and assuming you’re done because you feel I should be done now and this is it kind of model and thus settling for the chips and salsa rather than eating the big burrito. You know.

KF: Daniel, I would suggest that it would be a moot point. If the Dharma Disease, if the Insight Disease goes away, it goes away. And how you conceive of that is really irrelevant.

After a little back and forth Kenneth concludes:
​​​​​​​

KF: Right. I agree. But I really wanna go, take this all the way to the end. At some point, in order to be done with the Insight Disease, you’re gonna have to say, I give myself permission to be with this! The lack of permission can hold you up for decades, I believe. And it might be a nice idea to reflect on. For anyone infected with this pernicious disease, to consciously reflect upon this. Have I suffered enough? Have I suffered enough? Have I done enough work? Have I gained the credibility of all my peers? And then ask yourself: Do I care? Or do I really want to be done? If I really want to be done, I’m going to have to give myself permission. And it might not happen in one step. Most people are going to reflect upon this for some time.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 3862 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I recommend the recorded version. The nuance and individual quirkiness is cool.
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Siavash ', modified 1 Month ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 1198 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
I think the recorded version doesn't include parts (most of what posted in the OP) of the above dialog, and it's been edited out from it. I've listened to it many times, but I don't recall hearing these parts.
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Edited out? Interesting in a gossipy way emoticon, thanks for the reference. 
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Where do I find the recording?
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Siavash ', modified 1 Month ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 619 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
KF: It really struck me! And I thought, you know, I’m pretty sure I know what he means by dwelling in Buddha mind. So I did that, and on about the fifth day, that whole thing unraveled. This problem I had … you called it …

I would call it calibrating references. I wonder if he continued the exercise as instructed for the rest 25 days...
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Jim Smith, modified 29 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 950 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
"When Will You Be Done?"

​​​​​​​When you stop thinking about awakening.
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 29 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Aaah, AWAKENING, the sine qua non of Buddhism. Such confusion. When hyped to the extreme that this term is, without being able to provide a clear definition, it's no wonder that people swim so hard towards it, only to drown on the shore. Essential – Irrelevant, she loves me, she loves me not.
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Griffin, modified 29 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 139 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
Here is one question rarely asked around here. Hypothetically, imagine someone who has "insight disease" but who's (for some reason) completely prevented from having any kind of insight practice. (E.g. they have some kind of specific psychiatric or neurological disorder). What should we say to such a person? Maybe they could maintain some kind of life philosophy which tries to embody the "awakening values" whithout actually being awakened (e.g. "you are already there" philosophy, self-acceptance and letting go...)
Jazz Muzak, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 32 Join Date: 9/27/19 Recent Posts
My gut reaction is that anyone so severely impaired that they couldn't engage with a practice at all is probably so severely impaired that they aren't crossing the A&P to begin with. Maybe someone comes along that is totally convinced they can't practice and that it's hopeless and they must find another route or give up, etc, but I would think that this person is suffering from fairly typical Dukkha Nana woes.

Even the examples of "non practices" (you are already there, acceptance, etc) would require enough mindfulness to actualize that I would just assume they could make progress on a basic samatha-vipassana practice anyway, and I'd rather them do that than something I personally find less than effective (as always, just my opinion, ymmv).

I suppose operating under the bounds of the hypothetical, if I truly met someone betset by real insight disease who just absolutely under no circumstances could practice in any way, I would probably tell them to stop reading anything about dharma at all and go find something better to do with their life while integrating the issues of insight disease as they arise. However, as you might realize, this IS a practice, so clearly the answer is not so simple.
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Ni Nurta, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

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Could you provide example of insight practices and disorders which could prevent it?
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Griffin, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 139 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
Well this is pure speculation, but e.g. let's imagine a psychotic person whose symptoms (paranoid hallucionations) are triggered by trying to be more mindful. And while they hallucinate they lose touch with reality and are unable to remember dharma advice etc.

Or, let's go neurological: a person has intense pain whenether they meditate and are unwilling to do meditation practices and go to retreats because the pain is too strong and distracts them from supporting their family etc.
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Griffin, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 139 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
I'll go ahed and try to propose a different answer to my own question.

Sure, we can say to such a person to just forget about the Dharma. Maybe in some cases that would be the most skillful thing to do. But I suggest that we could also say - practice the Dharma within your capabilities:

1. MORALITY TRAINING. So much in here. Supporting your family, heping others, all kinds of psychological interventions and opportunities for growth... This is also Dharma. Especially psychology, many modern psychological techniques have some  overlap with dharma techniques, and that bridge may be a safe zone for them.

2. CONCENTRATION TRAINING: The person in question may not be able to practice jhanas, but maybe can achieve the so called flow states in mundaine life, doing activities they love. And of course there's metta, prayer etc.

3. INSIGHT TRAINING: So, they can't do vipassana. But *if* they enjoy reading dharma literature or listening to dharma talks, that can have an indirect positive effect on them. After all, most people interested in Buddhism don't even practice meditation, they just listen and read.
They could at least adopt and cultivate a philosophy of life which is aligned with ideals  of awakening and values of compassion and equanimity (rather that one of greed and hatred). There are many philosophies which could serve this purpose, from stoicism to "dudism" emoticon This replacement of deeply held conceptual beliefs is actually closely related to basic principles od Cognitive Behaviour Therapy.
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Ni Nurta, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 619 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
One can do jhanas in any position doing whatever and that is even more true for vipassana. If someone need special meditation position, closed eyes and not moving for long periods of time then I would say his/her meditation skills are... not good. In the end practice in harder conditions is normal practice anyone must do anyway so not having access to better conditions is irrelevant.

Your views are good example of attachment to ascetic rules and rituals of which obvious characteristic is blowing their importance out of proportions and relief/release/liberation based thinking.

As for people with serious mental issues: getting some imaginary "awakening" might not be the best topic to raise when having contact with them... it doesn't do you any good either emoticon
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Oatmilk, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 95 Join Date: 7/30/20 Recent Posts
Meditation doesn't magically heal serious problems. No matter how enlightened you are, something painful will be painful
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Chris Marti, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 3862 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Well this is pure speculation, but e.g. let's imagine a psychotic person whose symptoms (paranoid hallucionations) are triggered by trying to be more mindful. And while they hallucinate they loose touch with reality and are unable to remember dharma advice etc.

Or, let's go neurological: a person has intense pain whenether they meditate and are unwilling to do meditation practices and go to retreats because the pain is too strong and distracts them from supporting their family etc.

The most compassionate and efficacious thing to say to persons with these conditions is nothing. They are dealing with things beyond what a path of insight oriented meditation practice can do to help them.
shargrol, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

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Well said Chris.
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
IF ASKED, and in need of something to say, it would be good to point out that accepting professional help, with a cooperating and grateful mindset is Dharma practice. 
shargrol, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: When Will You Be Done? : Insight Disease

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Nicely said Angel!

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