it transforms 'being' into the particular jhana. the deeper the jhana, the more total the transformation. in a sense it exaggerates it to be far more obvious (which makes it easier to pick apart and see through). in another sense it ameliorates it to be far more tame and pleasant (which also makes it easier to pick apart and see through).

This method of practice can be done either with eyes open or closed, sitting, lying down, standing or pacing slowly up and down a walking path. Any interested yogi should try it in all positions. In fact, if you can, try following the instructions at the same time as reading them.


Here is the set up:


Important Pre-requisite Preparation


1) First thing to do and the most important aspect of this method is the following: One must take on the notion that "I" am my feelings and my feelings are "me". Any feelings that have arisen in any given moment also give off a sense of existing as a felt sense of "being". They also apply to the form and formless jhanas. So one could equally say "I" am the arisen form and formless jhanas as well. You need to get a sense or "feel" for a sense of "being" that permeates the current moment before attempting this practice. If you are not in PCE mode, there will always be a sense of presence or "being" there to feel and sense.


If you have gotten to MCTB 4th path, it might be easier to sense the felt sense of "being". It's not the centre point pattern of sensations previously misread as "self". It is a sense of presence or "being" or inner world or feeling "me" or felt sense of flow of becoming. When you get a sense for it, BE it! That is to say, don't step back and observe it with equanimity as something dis-identified from, like what is taught by some insight teachers. Rather, claim that sense of being as "you". Of course, after 4th path, one can see there really is no "you" there. Yet, tendencies and habitual patterns continue to arise. They just continue to arise sticky-free. But still, they continue.


So for this method of jhana practice to really bring the results I'm pointing to, one must claim that "continuance of such habitual tendencies" as the very sense of "being", as a persisting flow of "you", even without a centre point if you are at MCTB 4th path. It has a different feel to it than a dis-identified viewpoint which is often taken by insight meditators. We are not immersing ourselves in and believing an illusion. Ultimately the sense of "being" is just smoke and mirrors. For this practice to work, one must accept that there is still the illusion of "being" arising and use it as a means to end suffering.


Thanissaro in The Paradox Of Becoming states:



2) Once you get a palpable feel for this sense of "being", notice how it doesn't really feel 100% satisfactory. Notice how there is a slight or obvious push and pull of desire at any given moment; the desire to follow a thought, a feeling or an urge. It doesn't matter how subtle it is. Notice how these mental movements are ultimately unsatisfactory. They are not conducive to peace. They don't allow for this sense of "being" to be 100% satisfactory. Also, notice how as this mode of "being", there is always the potential to experience any and all of the five hindrances.


The five hinderances are:



Even if they haven't arisen, notice how the natural default sense of "being" has the potential to manifest AS these hindrances. If a hinderance is presenting itself, notice how unsatisfactory this sense of "being" is as the hinderance. Here we are equating the sense of "being" to whatever feeling or mind state that has arisen in any given moment. For the purpose of this method of practice, any affective quality of experience and the sense of being are taken and seen as one and the same thing. Thus, "I" am my feelings (five hinderances included) and my feelings are "me" is an important notion to understand experientially before attempting this practice.

1st Jhana

3) Now, after noticing how unsatisfactory the default state of the sense of "being" is while not in any jhanas due to having the potential to manifest as the hinderances, will yourself as that sense of "being" into the 1st jhana. Take your time. Really get a sense as yourself being that sense of "being" now manifesting as the 1st jhana with all its factors.

Notice how as that sense of "being" that you now ARE the 1st jhana. The sense of "being" is now manifesting with all the 1st jhana factors. Notice how the sense of "being" has a sense of effort there; a sense of applied and sustained thinking. Notice how the sense of "being" feels like it is based in the body.

The sense of "being" is now manifesting as the bliss and rapture of 1st jhana. Also notice that there is now no potential for the five hindrances to arise. Temporarily, the sense of "being" is now free of those hinderances somewhat. The hindrances have been suppressed temporarily. Notice that the 1st jhana is a slightly more refined sense of "being" than pre-1st jhana. It is slightly more satisfactory due to the hinderances being suppressed. Yet, it is not 100% satisfactory. In fact, it could be experienced as a little uncomfortable. The sense of effort can seem a little too much and same with the blissful sensations. Notice that this mode of "being" is unsatisfactory. Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being".

2nd Jhana

4) Now, from the dispassion for the 1st jhana as that felt sense of "being", move to the 2nd jhana. Here, we are NOT moving INTO a jhana. We are actually manifesting the factors of the jhana AS the sense of "being" still. The sense of "being" IS the jhana. It is now a more refined sense of "being" manifesting the factors of each jhana. So now, as that felt sense of "being", become the 2nd jhana.

Notice how that sense of effort or applied and sustained thinking drops away. "I" as that sense of "being" am now more relaxed, unified, and tranquil compared to being the 1st jhana. Notice how "I" as that felt sense of "being" am based in the body. Also notice how, although more satisfactory than the 1st jhana, this slightly more refined mode of "being" is still not 100% satisfactory. Notice and focus on the qualities of this mode of "being" that seem unsatisfactory Allow for the natural arising of dispassion due to seeing the inherent unsatisfactoriness in this mode of "being". Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being".

3rd Jhana

5) Now, from the dispassion for the 2nd jhana as that felt sense of "being", allow the factors of the 3rd jhana to become that sense of "being". Notice how, the focus moves to the periphery of the body. Notice how "I" as that felt sense of "being" am bliss manifesting. Notice how the feeling of rapture has dropped away and that sense of "being" is now a felt sense of happiness and bliss. Notice how this mode of "being" is more satisfactory than the previous mode, the 2nd jhana. Notice how the sense of "being" seems focused on and based on the periphery of the body.


Now allow the mind to notice this mode of "being" as not 100% satisfactory still. Perhaps the bliss is too much, or there are subtle mental movements to cling to the pleasurable experience. Allow for the natural arising of dispassion for this mode of "being" as the unsatisfactory qualities come to light. Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being".

4th Jhana

6) Now, from the dispassion for the 3rd jhana as that felt sense of "being", allow the factors of the 4th jhana to become that sense of "being". Notice how the factors of bliss and happiness drop away to leave the sense of "being" panoramic, wide, open, calm, cooled and equanimous. Notice how "I" as that felt sense of "being" AM equanimity. Notice how the sense of "being" is based within the body still. Notice how much more satisfactory it is compared to the previous mode of "being" , the 3rd jhana. "I" AM EQUANIMITY.

Now, allow the mind to pick up on any sense that this mode of "being" is not 100% satisfactory. Perhaps there are slight mental movements to "enjoy" the pleasure and calm of this mode of "being". See how these subtle movements to cling to these factors are themselves unsatisfactory. If you can't figure out what is unsatisfactory about the 4th jhana, ask yourself which you'd prefer to exist as: a normal "being" exposed to the potential 5 hinderances versus a "being" forever equanimous. Is there still a clinging to that "equanimity"? A sutta quote from Aneñja-sappaya sutta conveys the dangers of clinging to equanimity.



Allow for the natural arising of dispassion for this mode of "being" as the unsatisfactory qualities come to light. Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being".

5th Jhana of Infinite Space

7) Now, from the dispassion for the 4th jhana as that felt sense of "being", allow the factors of the 5th formless jhana to become that sense of "being". "I" am now the 5th jhana and its manifesting factors. Notice how the body as the base of the sense of "being", as the previous four jhanas, drops away. Notice how the felt sense of "being" is mental rather than body based. Notice how "I" as that felt sense of "being" am now the space all around the body.

Notice how "I" am still equanimity but also the space all around the body if the eyes are open, or all the mental space everywhere, if eyes are closed. There is an up and out feel to this mode of "being". Notice that it is slightly more satisfactory than the previous jhanas, as "I" as the felt sense of "being" am no longer confined to the body. Yet, it still isn't 100% satisfactory.


Like the 4th jhana, see how there may be subtle mental movements to grasp and cling to the pleasure and calm that arises as this formless realm manifest as the sense of "being". Allow for the natural arising of dispassion for this mode of "being" as its unsatisfactory qualities come to light. Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being".


6th Jhana of infinite Consciousness

8) Now, from the dispassion for the 5th jhana as that felt sense of "being", allow the factors of the 6th formless jhana to become that sense of "being". "I" am now the 6th jhana and its manifesting factors. Notice how "I" as that felt sense of "being" am now a felt sense of consciousness filling up all perceived mental space. Notice how "I" am still equanimity but also the a sense of infinite consciousness permeating within and all around my head if the eyes are open, or all the mental space everywhere up and out if the eyes are closed.


Like the 4th jhana, see how there may be subtle mental movements to grasp and cling to the pleasure and calm that arises as this formless realm manifest as the sense of "being". Allow for the natural arising of dispassion for this mode of "being" as its unsatisfactory qualities come to light. Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being".


7th Jhana of No-thingness

9) Now, from the dispassion for the 6th jhana as that felt sense of "being", allow the factors of the 7th formless jhana to become that sense of "being". "I" am now the 7th jhana and its manifesting factors. Notice how "I" as that felt sense of "being" am now a felt sense of nothing yet everything yet nothing in particular. Yet there is still a sense that "I", as that felt sense of "being", is still present. "I" am no-thingness. Notice how "I" am still equanimity but also a sense of no-thingness permeating within and all around my head if the eyes are open, or all the mental space everywhere up and out if eyes are closed.


Like the 4th jhana, see how there may be subtle mental movements to grasp and cling to the pleasure and calm that arises as this formless realm manifest as the sense of "being". Allow for the natural arising of dispassion for this mode of "being" as its unsatisfactory qualities come to light. Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being".


8th Jhana of Neither Perception Nor Non-perception

10) Now, from the dispassion for the 7th jhana as that felt sense of "being", allow the factors of the 8th formless jhana to become that sense of "being". "I" am now the 8th jhana and its manifesting factors. This mode of "being" gets quite weird and difficult to explain. For me, it's like that felt sense of "being" flickers on and off initially, but then evens out to become almost like there isn't a sense of "being" there at all yet there is still a more refined sense of "presence". Neither there not not there. Perhaps neither perceived nor not perceived. Yet there still is a sense of "being". It is now just an extremely refined mode of "being".

Notice how "I" am still equanimity but also a "thinned out" sense of "being"/presence/inner world. For me, it seems like "I" am flicking back and forth very quickly from a mode of experience where there is no felt sense of "being" to one with a very "thinned out" version of the sense of "being". It's like it is on the very edge of dropping away.

Like the 4th jhana, see how there may be subtle mental movements to grasp and cling to the pleasure and calm that arise as this formless realm manifests as the sense of "being". Allow for the natural arising of dispassion for this mode of "being" as its unsatisfactory qualities come to light. Here, it is much easier to cultivate dispassion for "being". Notice how this extremely refined mode of "being" is still not 100% satisfactory. Really get a feel for the fact that it isn't. It is peaceful indeed yet there is something missing or not quite right. Take your time to really see the unsatisfactoriness of this mode of "being". Are you 100% satisifed as this mode of "being"? When the unsatisfactoriness of "being" is seen, allow the dispassion that arises to take over. Allow the fact that the mind has become aware of this unsatisfactoriness to generate dispassion for this mode of "being". Allow that dispassion to become the dominant view of this mode of "being". Then allow that sense of thinned out extremely refined sense of "being" to drop away naturally as the dispassion for "being" grows and grows and grows. Let it happen naturally as a result of the generation of dispassion.

This practice helped refine (ameliorate) 'me' immensely.

Any feelings that have arisen in any given moment also give off a sense of existing as a felt sense of "being". They also apply to the form and formless jhanas. So one could equally say "I" am the arisen form and formless jhanas as well.

The sense of "being" is now manifesting as the bliss and rapture of 1st jhana.

I am using in the sense of refining the sense of 'being' so that it is easier to discern, investigate, see cause and effect. I think I do not know what you mean. I did not experience a 'PCE-lite' jhana. I am not even sure what it means exactly in an experiential sense. If you are referring to a possible result of the actualising of jhanas, where the felt sense of 'being' gets quite refined even more being juxtaposed with certain actual aspects of certain jhanas, then perhaps I know what is meant by 'PCE-lite'. Yet How something can be lite or the opposite of 'lite' when it has no 'levels' or 'grades' is confusing to me. The PCE, a full blown one, did not have any distict grading to it. There was no PCE that was more a PCE or less a PCE. If it was seen as less, then it was an EE. Clarification of such terms for the benefit of others is needed, End. Nothing can really be 'PCE-lite' in my opinion. Am I alone with this opinion? Others' thoughts?

Hi Nick and End in Sight,

I don't understand the 'being' awareness when 'nothing' is happening. For example, the sound of a truck going by and the feeling of chest energy is not-separable.

From sense-base, this is true: sound-perception and feeling-perception are both originating from sensory perception (this living body capable of sensory perceptions). Pitch of airplane in sky above may as well be nothing, too. It is absent now, too.

Being-feeling requires an emotion to arise and acquire the senses. Does that makes sense? :o)

Can you elaborate on your query as it is not quite clear what is confusing for you in the context of jhana.

What I intended in my initial post is to express that both ameliorative and exaggerated being (terms introduced and explained by End in Sight in regards to meditative states (jhana)) are emotive states.

My experience of 'ameliorative' jhana is that it is not an emotive state or is barely an emotive state. The most distinct characteristic it has is its emphasis on sense-contact rather than feelings / 'being'.

Imagine a jhana and an EE or PCE at the same time.

It is similar in some ways to my experience right now (in which there is no 'being').

However, I do not understand the use of 'pleasant' in this thread. What being is experiencing pleasant?

Do you notice that there is pure tactile experience in a PCE which is pleasant, without 'you' to enjoy it or feel its pleasantness? That is what I mean.

As for the breathing instructions, you will need to build a good amount of concentration before you see the shift to this hybrid state of jhana and PCE / EE that I describe.

Hi Nick - to be clear, I am not experiencing confusion in the context of this thread.

What I intended in my initial post is to express that both ameliorative and exaggerated being (terms introduced and explained by End in Sight in regards to meditative states (jhana)) are emotive states.

The feeling of 'Being' is a separative form - separation from "own" senses. Living is sensory. To be "being" (in meditation or in any action) is a mind-state (a self-forming and aggrandizing one) that distinguishes itself from the nose smelling, the ears hearing, the eyes seeing, the tongue-nose tasting, the nerves feeling.

So, in jhanas - like any activity - 'being' is an example of ignorance.

[edits]

The reason to use words like 'pleasant' in describing pure consciousness is because it is a means to describing absence-of-suffering. Other, less-emotive words (like 'emptiness') tend to alarm emotive minds

In pure consciousness, what is available to experience jhana (or a hybrid state)?

Nick, when you had the flu, how did your experience of your body change?

If you eat a spoonful of hot sauce, what would happen?

If you have sex, how is that different from the prior two experiences?

On my practice journal some months ago, someone quoted tarin (I believe) claiming that, as an AF person, he has a nearly-constant a sense of tactile pleasure in his body that was similar to 3rd jhana. How is that possible? (I will dig up the quote if you like)

There is such a thing as affectless pleasure. It is sensuousness. It is affectless. Perhaps it was /is in the 3rd jhana and it was covered over by the affective happiness that is a factor of the 3rd jhana. Is the factor of the 3rd jhana 'sukkha' affective or affectless?

So there appear to be two types of jhana. One that is of the 'being' kind, no matter how subtle an EE like it is. And the other is just the actual aspects/mental focuses that are apparent or can be focused on in a PCE or at AF. There is no absorption quality to them then as there is an absence of the 'thing' (1) that needed to absorbed, tamed and refined in order for certain mental structures (that are always present) to become more apparent.

When I made a similar claim on my practice thread some months ago, it was pointed out to me that many descriptions of PCEs on the AF website include an explicit claim that there is tactile pleasure in such states. After considering that, I realized that my understanding of "pleasure" was limited (I understood it to mean "affective pleasure"), and so I changed it to include tactile, non-affective pleasure as well.

The actual body.

In pure consciousness, what is available to experience the senses?

Nick, if you haven't tried it yet, you might find it interesting to try to cultivate 3rd jhana. Don't expect something affective, just advert to the mental focus associated with 3rd jhana, and observe your breath in a concentration sort of way (whatever that currently means to you). Try 15 minutes at least.

My experience is, it is perfectly possible to cultivate affectless sukha. (For me it is accompanied by a wisp of shadow-affect sukha too; maybe also for you, maybe not.)

Both I and Nick claim no experience of 'being', yet both I and Nick claim there is such a thing as affectless tactile pleasure. As I recall, Tarin has as well. You may want to keep that in mind.

@ Katy, mind-consciousness is a thought coming in contact with the mind to give rise to mind consciousness?

Thoughts can be apperceived.

I state that there is a form of jhana that is not absorptive, and is affectless or relatively affectless, which I experienced pre-AF.

This is hugely interesting as I know exactly what you're talking about here, I noticed it really clearly the other week while lying on the couch practicing jhanas. It was as close to a PCE as I've gotten through jhana practice since first using Nick's approach to actualizing the jhanas so I assumed it was a high-EE, for want of a better phrase, and left it at that. What stood out most was the fact that it was definitely jhanic but did not have the absorbed quality that I would normally experience through samatha practice, I assumed that it was just a sign of success with actualizing the jhanas (It occurred in 7th, for the record) and moved on.

Nick, if you haven't tried it yet, you might find it interesting to try to cultivate 3rd jhana. Don't expect something affective, just advert to the mental focus associated with 3rd jhana, and observe your breath in a concentration sort of way (whatever that currently means to you). Try 15 minutes at least.

My experience is, it is perfectly possible to cultivate affectless sukha. (For me it is accompanied by a wisp of shadow-affect sukha too; maybe also for you, maybe not.)

To put my cards on the table...this post is meant to be an exploration of whether one form of jhana is 'right concentration' and the other form is 'wrong concentration'.

One of the Buddha's main claims is that he first discovered or understood jhana (in his time-period). On the other hand, he claims that his previous two teachers taught him absorption in the dimension of nothing and in the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception (7th and 8th jhana). How are these claims consistent? It occurs to me that perhaps what he's claiming is that he discovered the 'ameliorating' form of jhana, which does not cause one to 'be' the jhana (or does so minimally). The 'ameliorating' form of jhana is experienced very similarly to a PCE / EE.

Just a thought here, but what if the eye focus and the sensations Nick describes here are the actual aspects of the rupa jhanas? The actual aspects of the arupa jhanas are different styles of mental focus, would that be an accurate way to describe them? If so, it would make sense to consider the aforementioned aspects as being "formed", and the mental aspects being "formless".

Speculation, of course, but I figured I'd throw it in the ring and see how it stands up.

can you describe this affectless sukha more? could you also describe affectless piti?

Nick seems to be saying that in his current experience, the first four jhanas only differ in eye focus, but in no other way. but we'll see what he says after he tries that exercise.

Nick, End:

After having a full blown PCE, I now incline my mind towards what aspects I remember from the PCE as my on-going practice. Some of this does involve paying attention to stillness, spaciousness, lightness, the sense that sensations are somehow all equal, etc. Some of it also involves paying attention the actual sensations of the sense doors. Sound has been especially helpful to tune into because it lends very well to the panoramic, directionless quality of the PCE.

I can get more detailed if you like, but before I do, does the above description appear similar to what you've done?

This is hugely interesting as I know exactly what you're talking about here,

Something just doesn't sit right with it, and this also goes for the descriptions of nirodha samapatti,

I'll do some work with this affectless jhana thing and see what I can see, I'll report back after a few sits and hopefully by that time there'll be some more data to look at too.

but i am curious as to End in Sight's claims about the 1st-4th jhanas in particular, as i thought those were solely becoming-based and had no actual qualities behind them (besides eye focus).

i did try just now to concentrate without becoming absorbed and it seemed to work.. didn't notice heavy-handed being-based absorptive qualities, but i was attempting to feel pleasantness throughout the whole body. it wasn't as head as usual. not sure if it was affective or not, or if i was doing arupa stuff or not. will have to play w/ it more.

There are uniform subtle vibrations that, if paid attention to are arising and passing quite fast throughout the entire body. They are just uniform buzziness if not really paid close attention to.But when they become the main focus of the 3rd jhana focus, they are seen with more clarity, or experienced with more clarity, as they are the main focus. They exhibit a very pleasant experience of sensuousness at the periphery. But that pleasant uniform buzzy sensuousness is always occurring. It is just sometimes not paid full attention to. Perhaps the eye sight is dominating or sounds at the ear drum or the inner body sensations are.

But here we are sectioning off part of the field of sensuousness, and sensuousness seems always to be 'pleasant' or affectlessly pleasurable if pain is not dominating.

End, would you provide the sources for these two claims you mention above so that the same can be read?

If you advert to the jhanas right now, without cultivating them in any way, isn't the major thing that changes between them the "mental focus" / eye focus?

Wouldn't you need to cultivate more concentration to see the affective differences between them? Why should it be different for us, non-affectively?

i wonder what my 'default' is...

might be a good place for me to start getting into it.

cuz yur special!! =O =O.

Perhaps that equanimity is what needs to be investigated for any clinging in the arupas. Is there an idea that the jhana factors may all be present in an affectless way covered up by clinging?

Perhaps inherent in a particular mental focus there is a quality that is affectless?

eqaunimity-no mind/7th jhana

How did you cultivate it?

This is super-important, and it is only you non-AF people (Claudiu, Steph, katy, you, whoever else joins in) who can do this experiment at the moment. If we as a community missed the boat on this, we missed it big time.

It is a little strange-sounding to say that, but my sole definition for PCE is "no attention wave"

I would need more detail in order to comment.

Is your question whether this is an example of an affectless jhana, or whether this is an example of a useful practice?

I can pay attention to any of those aspects I mentioned above at will. For example, while outside I can look at the sky and notice how expansive it seems and tune into what is a slightly vibratory widening out of attention, then that drops away and there's not even a sense of space at all... no boundaries anywhere (most of my current default experience seems like "no boundaries anywhere"). I can pay attention to the sensations in the head and diffuse them enough so there's an equalization of the sensations and then there's stillness. When paying attention to the actual vibrations in the ear that occurs with sound it is noticed that there is no separation between sound sensations and ear... as in sound doesn't seem like it is coming from "out there"... directionless.

Maybe we need a roster of affectless qualities for each of the jhanas. My mind seems very pliable now, so having descriptions of the tangible qualities might allow production of those qualities, so to speak. Didn't read through all the words in this thread yet, but has the question been raised whether the PCE itself is its own entirely different affectless jhana?

My vaguely thought-out theory is that, if my speculation is true, then "maximal jhana" (no attention wave) = PCE. Every jhana maxes out as a PCE linked to that form of jhana. The PCEs would be different in the sense that they have different experiential qualities related to the jhana factors, but the same in the sense that they have no attention wave. (The difference in experiential qualities would be fundamentally irrelevant, as your PCEs and my PCEs have had different experiential qualities depending on what we were doing at the time, but both were equally PCEs). But, that is just guesswork and more speculation.

Nothing can really be 'PCE-lite' in my opinion. Am I alone with this opinion? Others' thoughts?

There are two distinct shifts that occurred somewhere in the middle. The first shift had the sense of "locatedness" corresponding with the remaining attention wave reduced a bit.

The second shift was similar, but very extreme, like the entrance to a PCE, albeit with enough attention wave remaining for it to be obvious. To the extent that "locatedness" disappeared, the attention wave disappeared as well.

Note that (obviously) there is no absorptive quality, and no affective quality.

I perceive the attention wave as a residual kind of tension ("restlessness" fetter, maybe), so as the attention wave is reduced, the residual tension is reduced. As the attention wave is reduced, actuality becomes "clearer" in a way that is somehow more sensuous than my default state.

There is a clear perception of a body and a very spacious visual field.

This perception is, to me, located in the first half you described. Body and any spacious visual field indicates becoming.

9/23/11 6:57 PM End in Sight.


Actually, I think that it's also possible that, if one's concentration is extraordinarily high, other weird stuff (siddhis etc.) could happen, not a PCE. (I currently have dreams, so insofar as that continues and doesn't go away as I get rid of shadow-being, it occurs to me that it's possible to have actual sensory experiences not connected with the physical senses. Siddhis would be like this, not like experiences that happen in the mind's eye.)

There is still an open question of whether one can get rid of the attention wave entirely via jhana.

Katy, we agree, the residual attention wave is residual becoming (in the Buddhist, dependent origination sense).

Actualist 'being' has a somewhat different meaning (and this is the strength of Buddhism over actualism, that it sees and understands the fundamental problem more deeply), and the attention wave is not that. Hence why "early AF" appears merely to be anagami at best.

katy s:



In the moment of "pure consciousness" sans attention wave, there is consciousness/experience; in the moment of the attention wave, there is some kind of division-recognition or conceptual dividing of experience, "that is a body / spacious visual field".

There is a body and visual field in the moment of pure consciousness (in a manner of speaking), just no division-recognition. (Talking about a body or a visual field separately is always a manner of speaking). I believe we agree.

There still may be some terminological problems. In relation to the issue of affectless pleasure from before, I would say that, in the moment of pure consciousness, there is an experience with whatever qualities; in the moment of attention wave, there is a division-recognition "that was pleasure". The division-recognition is so subdued in my case that it no longer grows to the level of an affect, but it is analogous to one in some way (hence "shadow-affect").

EDIT: Keep in mind that, with or without division recognition, words can still flow on a screen, thoughts can still flow in a mind, one can still experience affectless pleasure, it is all merely undifferentiatedly-experienced. (A pithy way of saying this...affectless pleasure is not experienced as affectlessly pleasurable.)

EDIT 2: I have been assuming that by "pure consciousness" you are referring to a PCE or the mode of experience therein, and not to SVN (consciousness without any qualities, no senses, nothing for division-recognition to apply to).

How is your "EE / PCE jhana" practice coming, if you've tried it?

And here is the best I can offer for instructions. Sense-experience notices itself. 'You' do not need to be involved, 'you' muck up the noticing. Try to get the mind to tune into this auto-noticing quality of sense-experience.

Every fluctuation of the attention wave is 'you' (or shadow-you). 'You' looking, 'you' reacting, 'you' reflecting...so, pay attention to something neutral like your breath, keep the auto-noticing quality of sense-experience in the back of your mind, and slowly, gently, stop 'yourself' from doing anything.

Motion, you are correct, seems to sometimes throw the PCE back to EE. Body in motion putting mind in motion too. Movement of body allows more transference of attention to each particular movement happening, thus attention "bounces" and more readily reflects on new motion that happens.

I will have to try again sitting at home, staring at a blank white wall, or with my eyes closed. I'll let you know how that goes.

Right...unless this is typical of your PCEs, it sounds like you've attained what I'm describing.

With respect to the question of whether jhana can completely eliminate the attention wave...are you sure it was a PCE? Absolute perfect, no attention wave whatsoever? (Not everyone is equally sensitive to how much attention wave remains. I suspect I notice it more than many people because of my history doing dry insight. If you aren't sure, but suspect it's at least close to a PCE, that would be a fine answer.)

Everyone else...please post your experiences with this method as you have them. I will be away for about two weeks and will look forward to seeing what you've made of things when I'm back.

that being said, i don't know if i'd call EIS jhana, jhana, anymore. it seems the whole point of jhana is gone, and i'm just left concentrating without absorption. which maybe is the point?

but i feel that's what i do all the time anyway, when walking around, being attentive to sensuousness.

just now i was doing this, and decided to get absorbed, and i basically had to 'let go' to let the absorption happen. my body and head became fuzzy and started feeling affective pleasure. it felt like i was springing a leak, basically. back to EIS jhana, plugging the leak, the fuzziness stops, and much closer to an EE way of being.

When you max out concentration (or at least get it very high), in context of "EIS jhana" (ha!), you get a PCE / EE in which there is a bare minimum of thinking or acting. Normal behavior does not seem to be possible in context of that concentration (I doubt you'd be able to walk around).

just now i was doing this, and decided to get absorbed, and i basically had to 'let go' to let the absorption happen. my body and head became fuzzy and started feeling affective pleasure. it felt like i was springing a leak, basically. back to EIS jhana, plugging the leak, the fuzziness stops, and much closer to an EE way of being.

everything that arises has a beginning. to see that something has a beginning is to no longer grasp it - no longer grasping it, it no longer comes into existence.

When one first becomes aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of the clean perception of sensum just before one recognises the percept (the mental product or result of perception) and also before one identifies with all the feeling memories associated with its qualia (the qualities pertaining to the properties of the form) and this ‘raw sense-datum’ stage of sensational perception is a direct experience of the actual.

Having been on retreat for awhile, I believe I figured out how to do "sutta jhana" and will post about it in the future if anyone is interested.

Having been on retreat for awhile, I believe I figured out how to do "sutta jhana" and will post about it in the future if anyone is interested.

Having been on retreat for awhile, I believe I figured out how to do "sutta jhana" and will post about it in the future if anyone is interested.

Having been on retreat for awhile, I believe I figured out how to do "sutta jhana" and will post about it in the future if anyone is interested.

As far as I can see it is the practice to do...enormously pleasant, giving a foretaste of the purity of actuality unclouded by becoming, and extremely powerful in cutting through ignorance.

The suttas, while emphasizing development, often seem to describe people attaining arahantship directly (or arahantship directly after stream entry) via jhana, and I think, if one's concentration is strong enough, that this is literally possible.

First jhana

Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...

Second jhana

Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and with the skies periodically supplying abundant showers, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure...

Third jhana

Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture...

Fourth jhana

Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

I myself have noticed that there are two forms of jhana; one is an exaggeration of 'being' (where 'I' would become the jhana, 'I' would be piti / sukha / equanimity / formless stuff / whatever), the other is an amelioration of it (where my experience would lose a sense of located-ness or a sense of consciousness inhabiting my head, and would become very sensuous).

Also, in that case, could we try to synchronize our terminology? I think we are having some problem understanding each other related to terminological differences.

I myself have noticed that there are two forms of jhana; one is an exaggeration of 'being' (where 'I' would become the jhana, 'I' would be piti / sukha / equanimity / formless stuff / whatever), the other is an amelioration of it (where my experience would lose a sense of located-ness or a sense of consciousness inhabiting my head, and would become very sensuous).

I don't have detailed advice for how to attain the 'ameliorating' form of jhana, but the basic thing is, if you're paying attention to breath, attend to the physical breath rather than any nimitta, and, at the point at which you feel that you might be at some kind of transitional point, just "let go" while you keep noticing the breath effortlessly.

EDIT 2: Another kind of advice that I could give for 'ameliorating' jhana is to notice whatever pleasant tactile sensations come up in the body, and pay attention to those. (Notice the actual sensations, not the affective sensations.)

EDIT 3: The suttas often say that jhana makes one invisible to Mara, or blinds Mara...this is quite a good metaphor for the 'ameliorating' form, in my opinion, as when 'being' is suppressed, there is no 'you' for Mara to see. At the transitional moment, there is a clear experience that, suddenly, you have become temporarily immunized to all the defilements, as 'you' are not around to suffer them / be them, and so there is no way for Mara to afflict you so long as the jhana continues.

On this thread, I'd like to hear about other yogis' experience with jhana, whether jhana exaggerates or ameliorates 'being', how others have attained one or both forms, whether the above advice is useful for attaining the latter form of jhana, etc.

My impression is that when the jhana factors become the jhana (when you become the piti, the sukha, the equanimity, formless stuff), this is the mind being unwilling (thus unable) to complete the jhana practice, and therefore switches from the object of concentration to the factor of the jhana (which permits a more savory location of self - a very tricky, subtle diversion which could be named "shadow self" or, more distantly, "shadow being").

This is akin to one going into fantasy thought during vipassana: all pain may seem to cease during fantasy/diverted thinking, however, when one returns to noting and breath, pains also return (if that is the aspect of vipassana one is currently in - the seemingly-unbearable-sensations-stage (which is however abated by fantasy and diverted thoughts deveoped by one's self)), the sensations (itching, spasms, burning joints) return in full force. The effort at this unbearable-sensations-stage being to stay the course, attend, and (ultimately) attend the passing away of the sensations.

A Buddhist jhana exercise for your consideration for comparison to your "exaggerated and ameliorative jhanas" is to develop concentration on the breath at the tip of the nostrils:
- not following the breathe inside,
- not tracking the breathe passing over the skin and hairs.
- Absorbing the mind's attention in the breath at this one place at the end of the nose (above the upper lip-to-nostrils area).

In terms of practical advice aimed at exploring what I'm talking about, I would ask you whether you find it possible to simply allow the jhana factors to be there without "becoming" them.

I myself have noticed that there are two forms of jhana; one is an exaggeration of 'being' (where 'I' would become the jhana, 'I' would be piti / sukha / equanimity / formless stuff / whatever), the other is an amelioration of it (where my experience would lose a sense of located-ness or a sense of consciousness inhabiting my head, and would become very sensuous).

In particular, assume that there is no such mental object or experience as a jhana that one can enter or become, and simply allow the jhana factors to exist and strengthen without adding anything.

"...assume that there is no such mental object or experience as a jhana..."

Consider "jhana" to be a description of an experience, rather than a palpable thing in experience, or a palpable thing that comprises experience.....It may help to forget about the idea of "absorption"

The way to lean towards what I consider to be sutta jhana and away from affective absorption requires the same preciseness and alertness and keen observation of experience as does noting; however, while retaining this preciseness and alertness and keenly observing mind, one doesn't try to note or break the experiences into pieces (the pieces being the experience of the attention wave, i.e. non-actual), but simply pays attention to the experience of the breath or jhana-factors in an effort-free way (the breath and jhana-factors being actual physical experiences).

What is it like for you?

Does this produce an experience that matches any of the sutta's jhana similes, or does it produce a different kind of experience?

When you first become aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing, before you identify it. That is a stage of Mindfulness. Ordinarily, this stage is very short. It is that flashing split second just as you focus your eyes on the thing, just as you focus your mind on the thing, just before you objectify it, clamp down on it mentally and segregate it from the rest of existence. It takes place just before you start thinking about it - before your mind says, "Oh, it's a dog." That flowing, soft-focused moment of pure awareness is Mindfulness. In that brief flashing mind-moment you experience a thing as an un-thing. You experience a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. yet this moment of soft, unfocused, awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a thing.

In order to sync terminology (before I respond in more detail), can you do the following?

1) Cultivate some affective bliss.

2) Look a split-second before the experience of affective bliss; what is happening then, and what do you call it?

I have this quote by Bhante G in mind, of course:

As I believe that every affective experience is a distortion of an actual experience, it will be helpful to see what you think of and name the actual experience that affective bliss is a distortion of.

Having been on retreat for awhile, I believe I figured out how to do "sutta jhana" and will post about it in the future if anyone is interested.

As far as I can see it is the practice to do...enormously pleasant, giving a foretaste of the purity of actuality unclouded by becoming, and extremely powerful in cutting through ignorance.

The suttas, while emphasizing development, often seem to describe people attaining arahantship directly (or arahantship directly after stream entry) via jhana, and I think, if one's concentration is strong enough, that this is literally possible.