.

Hello Louis ! 

I hope that youre feeling better. Please do continue taking your medications and  follow the advice of your doctor / therapist. I know of practitioners who have taken medications before and now that they are better they have managed to improve their practice. I am also reminded of this post : https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/21798161   . If you still want to practice  you can do the brahmaviharas or as you said kasina or shamatha practice but make sure that you have stability first . Do not try to do meditation for long periods of time and for now mellow out a bit. I have been hearing that fire kasina meditation is good if you want to get good concentration but of course please listen to your body .  You can start with maybe a 5 minute meditation and increase accordingly from there whether you are comfortable  and well enough to do so. You can  also take a walk , rest , journal , go into nature , be active ( exercise)   ,do art  and other non meditative stuff  since those help.  If in the future you want to continue with noting , take it slow and listen to your body   Please do not forget to always be kind to yourself throughout this journey . 

I am impressed that you have been able to meditate and have a consistent practice , compared to me who is already 23 years old and still have a hard time in regards to that. Health and wellbeing always comes first  meditation will come later .Take your time , once you are better the time for meditation will come  

I always found Mahasi noting as pretty agitating for brain. Great for ability to notice a lot of things quickly but I always felt it runs the risk of making things too intense. Better to practice it when life situation is stable. Thankfully I did not experience and in my case kick that this practice gives nervous system was very needed. Some times when life is rough it is perhaps not the best thing to practice. I would second advice for shamatha. Just ordinary breath concentration, and not powered up one but more like chilling out. Find peace in this practice. You will thank yourself for havign this peace available any time you need it or just want to experience it.

Breath concentration is my favourite meditation practice. And let not this practice of lazily observing breath fool you. It is powerful meditation, especially when you understand it. Unlike mahasi noting this one always felt like something that is safe and could be used to heal anything related to nervous system, including any traumas. Just with note: not powered up manic concentration (which in extreme cases of misunderstanding meditation is literally optimizing for seeing you see an object) and more like becoming breath yourself to the point you do not notice becoming anything and while it happens you just are what you are. This should help.

BTW. Benzodiazepines are horribly addictive and will cause you to have issues sleeping once you are off them. Be sure to get better soon to avoid worst withdrawal issues ... not that rushing anyone in this situation is good idea but just hurry, chop chop

This might be a good book to read: https://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Sensitive-Mindfulness-Practices-Transformative-Healing/dp/0393709787

Sorry to hear about your troubles Louis. 

I think it's best to take it easy if traumas popping up as flashbacks. That can be intense. 

Talking therapy in this case can help. 
Give you self a slack; watch some funny movies. Make some food you like. Hang around friends. Go for a bike, walk, nature ... 

If you really are in bad shape psychologically then Calm-abiding as in whole body breathing awareness is a good way to go about this. But in small doses. 7-10 minutes was suggested by my psychologist. A few times a day but keep it short. 
and did I mention talking therapy yes it really can calm things down. 

I agree Noting can be intense especially if traumas are popping up seriously. So step on the break for now. It's all good. Many of us have been where you are right now I felt for a while as if under imminent attack in my home, on the streets, in nature, in shopping centers, ... it was intense with flashbacks and panic attacks but it got better and practice could carry on at some stage later again  
No rushing on a bumpy road slow down and even take a break from sitting meditation for now. 

Best wishes to you and please keep us posted! 

Hi Louis,

Good to have you back! Sorry to hear about your troubles. Lots of us have been through this kind of stuff, it will pass with time. I suffered from high anxiety and panic attacks around your age, but didn't have any ability to address the causes at the time, which would have made the next 20 years much less challenging! All good advice above about grounding activities and easing your way slow back into meditation with some samatha/calmness and brahmavihara.

See if you can find someone who specializes in somatic (body based) trauma therapy. All those past traumas get lodged in the body, just waiting for a trigger. A specialist should be able to show you how to release them slowly and safely. The book Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma by Peter Levine will give you an idea how it works, but one on one with a specialist is best.

All the best
George

Having bad live experiences and stress during 6th nana is worst thing which can happen, especially when it is one of these which are by itself like mini-panic attacks.

Unfortunately meditation, especially when it gets quite pleasant around A&P seems like the greatest distraction and relief from all life traumas ever... which is kinda a pattern I'd say we see here in this topic. Hopefully Louis will know better next time ;)

What happened to you man? I'm so sorry to hear all this as we used to talk all the time. There is a community of people here including me. I have to take Clonepam for anxiety. What the people said before me is very good. Continue to follow the advice of your doctors, take your meds and start back slowly. Maybe its too much for noting right now as one person wrote. Please take care of yourself and keep us updated.

I am not a psychologist so I don't have any medical advice, but if you are looking for a type of practice that is relaxing I can recommend the following links:

Preparing for Meditation with Relaxation Exercises
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2020/08/preparing-for-meditation-with.html

Easy Meditation
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2020/10/easy-meditation.html

It's very good you recognized the need to seek for help. THAT is a huge first step towards getting better  

I would feel already better after 6 to 7 meetings with the psychologist (as in talking therapy).
​​​​​​​Its s good thing, the talking therapy is  

Yes, it's great that you are seeking and receiving help and prioritizing taking care of yourself. I can't think of any practice that is totally safe. People usually recommend metta, but that once got me into a serious headspin. I find that hatha yoga is generally very stabilizing, so that is something I would suggest. 

Very best wishes for your wellbeing and (when applicable) practice.

Thanks for the update! 

I was on Sertralin 50mg daily for several years. Read about side effects so to be informed in case you feel funky while on SSRI. In such cases contact the docs. 

My doc asked me to take 75mg but that gave me bloody feces (a lot of blood) so I kept taking only 50mg. It's one of the side effects. 

Please give it a read so you are informed. 

Yeah for talking therapy  


Btw, Shamatha can be about calming the whole body with out-breathing, calming the whole body with inbreathing. No reason to look at it as a concentration practice at all. Calm abiding is very healing and is less contracted and more relaxed and zoomed out as it is keeping the Whole body in awareness  

I was seriously depressed for 10 years and was on Prozac 3 times. I felt like it gave me some relief during the worst parts. Eventually I realized through meditation that depression was my way of shutting down to avoid "unacceptable" feelings of anger and sadness.

Obviously your situation is unique Louis, but I really hope the SSRI gives you some relief and you can figure out with a therapist what's at the bottom of all this.

​​​​​​​'Fuck steam entry and be happy' sounds like a great strategy :-) Maybe we could get some t-shirts printed? It's the last thing you want to do when you are depressed, but try meditating with a smile on your face, even if it hurts to keep it there! There's something about simply using those muscles which boosts your seratonin, even if your thoughts are telling you the opposite!

Its me, your friend again. I'm so happy to see you have been prescribed an SSRI Sertralin. I have taken SSRIs seberal times in the past and they have been very helpful. Get good therapy - see if you need to do any truama work. Yes fuck Stream Entry. That's not your focus right now. See what they let you do, maybe a little shamatha but focus on the talk therapy. I'll keep you in my thoughts.

How are you feeling Louis? How does the SSRI feel? Have you started with talking therapy? questions questions  

Wishing you the best my friend! 

Good man yourself Louis  

Hang in there ; hot showers, go for walks , eat well, drink enough water, watch a favorite movie (I remember doing a Lord of the Rings marathon when I was in the dumps)  

Keep us posted about what happens next week! 

Hi Louis,

I’ve been trying to remember what it was like when I was suffering from depression, to see if there’s anything I can offer you which might be helpful. Obviously your depression could be very different, so please feel free to ignore it or tell me to shove it if it’s not helpful! When I was depressed and people tried to offer me well-meaning advice, I would usually get angry (which in hindsight was telling me something about the causes of my depression).

In retrospect, when I was depressed, what I was most suffering from was an inability to distinguish my thoughts from my feelings. The classic example is the thought ‘I feel depressed’. What did that even mean?! These days it’s much clearer to me that a thought like ‘I can’t face another day’ is a completely separate animal from the actual physical feelings of anxiety, anger and sadness. But back when I was depressed (and it was only 2-3 years ago), thoughts and feelings were all wrapped up in one toxic user-friendly package. It seemed to me like the thoughts caused the feelings, and the feelings caused the thoughts, and I was trapped in the middle of it all and unable to break the vicious cycle. I do remember though that I would wake up every morning and there would be a brief moment of feeling ok (or at least not feeling terrible) and I would be slightly disoriented and have the thought ‘Am I still depressed?’ I would kind of have to check and then have the feeling of putting on the heavy black cloak and remembering ‘oh yeah, I’m still depressed.’ So even then there was some gap between the thoughts and the feelings.

It was feeling suicidal which ultimately forced me to get angry and curious and ask what the fuck was going on with me, because I knew on some level that some part of me didn’t really want to die, even although I fantasized about it a lot. I remember thinking it seemed a bit extreme that I should have to kill myself to let other people know how bad I was really feeling inside! What was left of my rational mind was also struck by the disconnect between my external circumstances (adequate food, shelter, clothes etc) and the fact that I felt like I couldn’t possibly survive another day. I remember thinking one day ‘If I’m willing to die then I should at least be willing to sit down and really allow myself to feel what it really feels like to be depressed!’ I had already started meditating by this point. Another clear thought was ‘If I’m willing to physically die then let me see what it’s like to “mentally die” first’. That was actually the first day of recovery for me, just sitting there with no expectations and completely letting go - “dying” if you will - and seeing what came up ... It’s actually a big relief once you start to feel the feelings somewhat independently of being stuck in the mental loop of the thoughts about the feelings.

I really feel for you Louis, depression is a fucking tough and horrible thing to go through. The only real consolation I can offer you is this - it’s really true that what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. When you look back on this in the not too distant future, you will see that it was a necessary part of allowing the strong, proud and independent young man that is waiting inside you to emerge.

I hope something up there helps in some way, or at least doesn’t make it worse! Good luck with the therapist. Therapy is really necessary and important. It’s obviously a lot about thoughts, getting the story straight - ‘who did what to whom’. Therapy in combination with meditation is very powerful, because you have the ability to observe the storyline and the feelings operating independently. Obviously they are not completely separate, there is some causal relationship, but it’s a lot less than you might assume. When I started therapy I assumed that the story/thoughts were 90% of what was going on and feelings were 10% (to the extent I was aware of them at all). These days it’s more like feelings are 90% of what’s going on and thoughts are 10%. Sometimes I still get caught up in the story, but mostly it’s like ‘oh yeah, just thoughts, noise, mental chatter, nonsense ... what shall I have for breakfast?’ 

Best wishes
George

Hey Louis! Hope you're feeling better mate, hang in there, it gets better. I was in a really bad state myself a couple of years ago but now am starting to see some clarity. Gym is a fantastic way of dealing with shit and it's a good sign that you're making the effort of going and that the body is responding to the exercise in a positive way! One thing that I'm starting to learn and I don't know if this would apply to you atm but sometimes you just need to give yourself permission to feel good. What does this mean though? This didn't come naturally to me, so I initially had to put effort into feeling good by getting therapy, exercise and forcing a smile on my face like George S is saying. After a while you start to realise, hold on, yea life is impermanent and all and we have no control BUT I still can make an intention to feel positive without aversion or clinging, without forcing it, you just ask for it and wait. Best wishes mate!

I hear you mate.

Same stuff happening in this bulb of mine and im
not just saying this. 

These days there are all sorts of thoughts rushing out; fighting certain people verbally about me being right and the wrong, about my parents being bad parents and how now I might become a bad parent because of that. Thoughts of being lost in sense of not knowing what kind of job to seek and what to work with in the first place; I used to do so many things and lost interest in doing those. Now looking for something but can't find it. 

Also old memories of me doing wrong things to people and some shitty situations I brought myself into that led to that etc ... 

This mind stuff just does its thing It's like a rainy day with storm and thunder! At some stage Sun does come up again but then ... it gets too fucking hot it's never good enough. 

This practice will not make us normal nor necessarily happy. What it seems to do is show that This mind stuff arising is not in "my" control and it's not "mine" nor am "I" anywhere to find in this unfolding. So mind learns to just observe this circus change into a theater show, then into a rain storm then into a lovely sunny beach day , then fireworks, then a Radiohead concert , then Butterflies flapping all around then ...  

But yes I certainly know as do many here, when shit hits heavy it's hard to see the "light". 

I think it's a great idea to first do the therapy and later think about all this meditation stuff.

​​​​​​​Best wishes Louis! 

It’s a very common and “normal” pattern: trauma -> relationships -> guilt -> depression -> suicidal thoughts. It’s not your fault that you were traumatized and the rest of it is just how this stuff automatically plays out until the trauma can be resolved. The things you did, the stuff you said, the obsessive thoughts and rehashing of the past - they’re all manifestations of the unresolved trauma. Hang in there, therapy should help you get to the root of all this and sort it out. If it was someone else in your situation, wouldn’t you have understanding and sympathy for them?

What is the purpose of saying to someone it was not his fault? Would you vouche for Louis to the point that if it was proven it was his fault you get to loose your pinky finger? If not then I do not see any point of saying such things.

@Louis 
Instead of wanting to be normal just experience what you are getting. Not to get better but because you should always experience what you are getting. It is just very good habit and when is the better time to make it your habit than now?

Because victims of trauma usually do assume on some level that it was their fault, and it's not! The unconscious assumption of blame is the root of the guilt and being so hard on oneself, therefore I think it is necessary to point it out.

Your comment is gaslighting - implicitly blaming the victim. And Louis feels that he has to agree with you, which is perpetuating the pattern of self-blame.

Louis, please be wary of people who try to question or undermine your experience of trauma or victimhood. It is possible that people have already been doing this to you so, it feels "normal". This is a really important part of the recovery process - accepting that the original trauma was not your fault and therefore you don't need to carry the burden of guilt and self-castigation (even if it led you to do things later which you do regret). While you are waiting to see a therapist, you might find it helpful to read Alice Miller's book The Drama of the Gifted Child, which is published in the UK as The Drama of Being a Child. Don't let anyone else tell you what your experience should be!

Thanks for the update Louis. Sounds positive.  I'm pulling for you.

Just to be clear, I didn't suggest wanting greener pastures is wrong or anything like that. What is leading to issues is trying to go there in heedless way that has little chance of succeeding. What you are doing is trying something out and trying it was very good move but it didn't work last million times you tried it since last month so why would it possibly work next time you try it in the same way? This might be good thing to do some time in the future but obviously now something different is needed.

Did you ever see chickens and how they when they notice food outside fence they will just push forward on it even if there is opening very close? This is how humans behave when it comes to mind related things. They just go forward with their initial assumption and do not look around to find better way. If you cling to what seems like way to happiness then you will miss all the openings for good things you could experience. In fact the only reason you suffer right now is because you know you could be experiencing pleasure because you can sense it. If you could not sense there is better state to be in right now it would not bother you and maybe a little detached from everything but you would feel just fine. I do not suggest to become detached but become proficient in finding what you seek and knowing it you can get something and with how much effort and make educated decisions.

Something is available but you cannot get there and to know how to get to places you must first know where you are and what is around thus self observation and being more where you are is essential. When you learn how to move around, map terrain then over time might become very proficient in it. That won't however happen when you continue being blind when it comes to seeing your mind. And I do not mean sexual attraction to your mother bullshit that they will try to work you through on therapy but normal learning how to use internal.

Having mind but remaining blind to it is like if you didn't feel your hands normally and couldn't see them and only way to feel them was through pain. It would be possible to not have issues if you always kept them in safe position, never extending them. Now once you moved them you need to learn to see them, need to learn how to see your mind and learn how to not freak to what you see. It wasn't made to be pretty. You can experience awesome things if you know how to use it well though. Until that happen do not make fast decisive movements, slowly, more observation than movement. You will figure it out if you put heart in to it.

My thoughts on SSRI is please do observe how your body reacts to it. Also how your mood reacts to it. 

Read the side effects please! Be informed and if you recognize any of those talk to your doctor about them. 

About noting; 

If you feel you can continue the practice then yes I think noting aloud 1-3 sensations per second for the entire 45-60 minutes is the way to do it. Getting spaced out is what we do off cushion for years and it didn't awake us so can't see how spacing out all the time on cushion can lead to anything we here aim for  

Concentration should be respected and find a way to feed it somehow. My favorite is open eyes Kasina object. Ingram used to return to "rise and fall of abdomen" as his basic object. Find yours! It's good to have that one object to often return to even when"freestyle noting". 

It's good to have that concentration point as it makes things slide a bit easier.

Noting Aloud will keep you "in the game" more than silent noting which means will also propel stuff faster. This means DN might be more intense but also more purifying if one accepts it and let it wash over. This way even the incoming EQ will be more solid afterwards. 

However I don't know how you are feeling now. I don't know if it's good for you to push now too hard. 
Noting can be used as a grounding tool as well. As long one is not aiming to achieve big stuff (ehm ... SE) it should be a fine training in attention  

Be honest with yourself and really question if you can do this now or if you should give it rest for a few months. One can always rekindle the practice once this heavy emotional stuff is worked with (therapy). 
​​​​​​​

Such great advice here from the veterans!! Louis just give the meds time to kick in you will get out of this! You can count on impermanence to get you out! It's amazing that you're still sitting through this, such faith in the practice. Can I also say that noting is a life line, you can rely on this to help you. Not in the way where you have to note your entire reality and scare the shit out of yourself but a slow grounded noting of the pain that's surfacing, noting outloud like Dusko is saying! Respect your limits &amp; stay safe. Lots of love&nbsp;<br /><br />george&nbsp;

They feel guilt and think about topic of trauma and their wrong assumption is that they feel guilty because of the trauma. This is the assumption being made. And while patients who come to seek help are excused from not knowing what is what in their mind, the person who analyzes them in order to help them should know why they feel guilt and not be completely clueless. When not knowing and assuming this is just some quirk of being traumatized (as psychoanalysts do - they just assume you are crazy) best advice is "its not your fault" only reinforcing the belief that these two things (guilt and trauma) are related.


Self-blame is good if it is directed at right object as it is indicator what to change. The issue is that we tend to not see very well what the guilt is about. It is unpleasant so we tend to look away and not see very well what is actually happening.

This is where meditation is supposed to help. Buddhist path is path of self improvement - not just path leading to liberation/relief. The liberation bit is implied by self improvement. And the thing one have to do in meditation if it is to be any good is to make sure own behavior is improving and in order to know that and to be able to accomplish that one has to see own behavior clearly hence practices for improving perception. If in the past some wrong actions caused issues then it should be more than obvious that during dukkha nanas these will be overblown out of typical proportions. Right view is to see this as an opportunity and use as magnifying glass to study the reasons why we behave in way we do and to ponder why it means this is the wrong behavior. Person who studies himself in order to self improve will not see dark night as something bad but as a great opportunity to self-improve. They will see all nanas and mind states and all events as opportunity for self improvement. Isn't that what the path leading liberation from dukkha is supposed to look like? There is no guilt if reason for making wrong actions does not exist anymore because it has been uprooted. When improved enough mind will naturally change its focus from feeling guilt to making amends if amends are due and this is then not called feeling guilt and won't cause dukkha but joy. Real guilt is caused by doing nothing to causes and doing something begins with perceiving them clearly and perceiving begins with doing something to improve perception.

BTW. Vipassana is good for improving perception of subtle things but we all know how it is being sold. It is the promise of some change that will automatically disable suffering that draws people in. Knowing intuitively the whole meditation/practice thing was to be about self improvement and doing a lot of work to avoid feeling the thing which motivates for doing self-improvement and then getting burned hard is in my books a pretty darn solid reason to feel a lot of guilt. But that is actually a very good sign and as long as the course is corrected from wanting to feel fine to wanting to self-improve all will be fine.

@Louis
I know my thought processes might be hard to follow (people told me so, not sure why) so if my dharma resonates with you and there are any questions please just ask them.

Please do be patient and persevere! Depression is so debilitating, but if you can see through your mind's stories, that's all to the good. It's exhausting, though! 

You might try mixing it up with walking meditation and focus on the soles of your bare feet. I'd also suggest getting your self-talk involved by using pet names for yourself, like sweetheart, honey, dear. This may make you want to throw up, but then again if you're feeding your brain with loving language, it can help counteract the self-loathing that is a component of the depression. 

And here is something by the poet Derek Walcott: 

Love After LoveThe time will come 
when, with elation 
you will greet yourself arriving 
at your own door, in your own mirror 
and each will smile at the other's welcome, 

and say, sit here. Eat. 
You will love again the stranger who was your self.
Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart 
to itself, to the stranger who has loved you 

all your life, whom you ignored 
for another, who knows you by heart. 
Take down the love letters from the bookshelf, 

the photographs, the desperate notes, 
peel your own image from the mirror. 
Sit. Feast on your life.

Wanted to second this suggestion Laurel made:


I sometimes use it and talk to myself with such words and it's helpful. Talking to yourself like a loving mother (in her best day) would talk to their child.

Or applying it to other activities. Like when feeding yourself, treat it as if you have a dear guest and you are feeding them and taking care of them. It would be good to sometimes treat yourself like that.

Hey Louis, yes you FEEL like you have done irreversible damage but remember that's just a belief brought on by the mind, does that mean its true? So many of us have been though this! When I look at your situation you're in a much better state then I was. I didn't meditate for 6 months when shit hit the fan! You're still able to maintain mindfulness throughout this, which is incredible! In fact I couldn't talk for 3-4 months, I was mute! I came out through the other side a better person though and so will YOU. If it's too much right now then relax with the freestyle noting practice, maybe just do the shamatha part. Be GENTLE with yourself, like they're saying above. Almost as if you're a new born child, kitten or puppy that needs nourishing from its care taker.
Remember a belief is just an emotion, it's just the absence of doubt or it's faith and confidence. Emotions are impermanent, you will have at times faith that you will get through and at other times you'll feel doubt that anything will happen. Shine your light on all the faith and doubt. Notice there's a choice to identify with either one! This is when you can build your faith and confidence in yourself. When you're doubting just notice the doubt and ask if it's true? You can choose to NOT IDENTIFY with the doubt! What will happen next you may ask? MORE doubt, there it is again! Doubt is an opportunity! Move forward towards faith, step by step by noticing the doubt and not identifying with it. You will get through it, lots of love!
George

​​​​​​​Tell me to shut up if this is not helping.

Hi Louis! 

Have you read about the side effect of SSRI? It's included in the package. Observe if you feel worse or better! You are not to feel more helpless or god forbid suicidal. This is actually one of SSRI's worse side effects and can effect younger people. You see why I'm pushing this issue Please do read it and do observe and do be sceptical if you start feeling worse. TALK to your doctor about this. They ought to switch to other meds or something else. 

If SSRI is indeed needed by your body I'm sure by now you would have some sort of relief as you are taking 100mg. It takes time for it to work out on the brain changes but still it should already be of some help. If that is what your body-brain needs that is. 
However I am no expert in this. 

Talking therapy sure is a good thing. I hope you hear soon from them. Do not expect change immediately. It takes a few meetings  

This phase could also have much to do with the meditation path. The Dukkha Nanas. I can't tell. You do seem to desire to practice and for this phaze to just go away. This is very much Desire for Deliverance or Re-observation. 

If desire for practice is there and you see you sitting often then maybe good to get some support. Maybe a weekly meeting with a teacher you trust or a Dhamma friend you trust. I find it helpful to have someone for accountability sake and for the sense of "not being totally alone" in this. 
I really appreciated having a teacher back when I was plowing through the deep mud of DN. 

Best wishes. 

Louis: Hey yall I just wanted to drop an update. I haven't been feeling great at all really. Still the same shit I've been dealing with. No phone calls from the therapy people yet but I'm trying to be patient. I feel really really hopeless as if I've done some permanent damage and I'll never feel happy or normal again because it feels like it's been such a long time. I remember the date this all started which was March 15th of this year, which is only 7 and a half weeks which isn't as long as I thought. I know this stuff can take a long long time to get through and I do think I need some good long therapy. I just feel like I'm under attack all the time really. Overwhelmed with guilt and hate towards myself, feeling as if I'm the most horrible human on this planet. I'm glad for meditation as I feel my clarity is higher than the average person so I know exactly what thoughts are coming up and are causing the feelings of guilt and dread, mainly past events with people, hopefully this makes the therapy more effective. I haven't meditated in two days but I plan to get back on it tomorrow. I want your guys' opinion...do you think I should start a new practice log? I'll be trying to do an hour a day of 20min shamatha and 40 min freestyle noting aloud with eyes closed. Just wanted your opinions on this. I can't thank all of you enough for the endless amount of support it means the world to me. Hopefully one day I will feel better. Just gotta be patient and persevere.

Hi Louis. I've been following this thread with real interest and sympathy, and also, increasingly, with admiration, as I think it's going to be one of those threads that a lot of people going through similar things will find heartening. Feeling really hopeless and fearing you've done yourself permanent damage, for such a prolonged episode, is terrifying, as I know from my own experience with depression over the course of my adult life. But your patience and perseverence here are beautiful. (You're not the most horrible person on the planet, by the way, I am, lol.)

As far as I can tell, you're doing everything right, within the slow-moving and often frustrating constraints of all the therapeutic processes (mental illness, paradoxically, often requires a greater amount of patience from us than ordinary life, just to deal with the sluggish institutional machinery of the helping professions). You're addressing the depression conscientiously and in state of the art fashion (and it is definitely art, not science, for the most part). You know better than anyone what the drugs are doing to you, so don't be spooked by the vast range of opinions. One of the great benefits of being at the end of your rope is that, like Job, when people give you well-intentioned advice, you tend to be able to see more clearly whether it's relevant or not to your own desperation. Give your attention to what helps you take your baby steps and let the rest go by.

That you have sustained your practice through this is also beautiful, and it tells me that there is a strong streak of dark night mixed in with this depression. You don't seem inclined to err on the side of bypassing the psychiatric/psychological aspects through attributing everything to "spiritual process," so I feel free to speak to the double whammy aspect of depression and dark night dynamics. Depression is, weirdly, an abrupt, unsupported, uncontextual taste of "renouncing the world," albeit with no corresponding hope of deliverance through that renunciation. It is the dissolution of what used to work in our lives, and we have to go through many of the same emotional and intellectual and motivational ways of dealing--- and, especially, failing to deal with, at the points where nothing seems effective--- with that dissolution in both depression and the dark night. Feeling that you are the worst person in the world is a running start toward really understanding the nothingness of the self, for instance. The self in depression/DN is clearly "nothing," helpless and ineffectual, and also way worse through nothing, in its agony at that. In meditation, for me, I find that to arrive at a place where the self is quieted, where the worse-than-nothing has eased into an approximation of actual nothing, is a tremendous relief. Not even peace, at that point, just a quiet beyond the raging recriminations and guilt and dread. A very undramatic refuge, and it involves a certain faith in your technique to get there, a persistence in the technique even when its seems dry and dead and useless. Because the iteration of your technique, whatever else it is, is doing something simple and immediate that points beyond the shit, that allows your attention to release the shit for a crucial instant. In the extremes of depression/DN, this simplicity is life-saving, in my experience. It doesn't have to mean anything at that point, because even if its means nothing, what you're immersed in to start with is way way worse-than-nothing. The sheer existence of a quiet condition is immensely heartening, even if it only happens on the mat for a moment or two, a taste, a glimpse, and has burned away in the usual depressive thoughts before we can even straighten our legs after the sit. Then, you can take your meds and go see your therapist. But on the mat, dive deep and treat it as a dark night and let everything go except the inarticulate depth of whatever brought you to the mat in the first place.

You said "patience and perseverance," and I find inspiration in that. Humility also starts to come very naturally, once you accept being the worst person on the planet, lol. And compassion. These are real long-term fruits, not ripe or sweet at this point, but already present, inherent in the intensity of what you're going through. Hang tough, Louis, my friend, be patient and persevere just as you have been doing. This terrible drought will pass; the rain will fall again and the streams will run. 

Lots of great responses above. I just wanted to add, it’s definitely not the case that you have caused yourself some kind of permanent damage! This guilt issue was already there and the meditation just brought it to the surface. Many people suffer from similar issues and mostly they ignore them, which means the guilt continues to fester beneath the surface and drive all sorts of guilt-inducing behavior. They may suffer from depression for decades and have an even bigger breakdown later in life, or they may go on to have dysfunctional families of their own and spread the guilt even wider. Guilt issues don’t go away by themselves, they get worse until you face them, which is what you are doing now. Even although it feels absolutely horrible for you right now, what you are doing is very much for your long-term benefit and those who will follow after you. If you are up to it, while you are waiting for therapy, you could do some research to get a better understanding of the issue. Try googling “toxic guilt” or “toxic shame” and see if you can find anything which resonates for you, e.g.

How Toxic Guilt and False Responsibility Keep You in Dysfunction

In addition to the Alice Miller book I mentioned above, there is another great book called Homecoming by John Bradshaw which explains how toxic guilt/shame develops and contains healing exercises.

Louis, my friend, checking up on you. I'm sorry that things are not going well ast the momemt. As Papa Che notes,  and I have experienced, SSRIs DO definetly have side effects. Sometimes you can tolerate them but if they are  at the  level where they are  making things worse, you need to ask your doctor to switch you to another SSRI.

Don't give up!! If I can get through it, you can! I am really glad to hear the shamatha and thhe 40 minutes of noting at loud. This is good work. You did it. Keep meditating as yoyr doctors allow.

Hey, if you want to talk about what is going on with you, let me know. Can find my contact info at https://integrateddaniel.info

So glad that many here have been so supportive.

Best wishes!

​​​​​​​Daniel

Best best wishes Louis gentle and steady  

There's a lady called Irene Lyon (student of Peter Levine) who has some good articles/videos about how to work with guilt/shame/disgust and the links with depression. Maybe you might find it helpful.

How toxic shame creates the fallout we call depression:
https://irenelyon.com/2017/09/14/toxic-shame-creates-fallout-call-depression/

Disgust. The gateway emotion for healing toxic shame:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KlV1zD5asw

It's great that you can recognize and sit with the feelings of guilt, shame and disgust and note away the desire to analyze (even if there's a nagging song playing in the background). It might feel very unpleasant but that is actually the healing process - your system expelling the toxins. Irene Lyon calls it "the dead rat" ... expose it to air and sunlight for long enough and it will decompose!

Sending you best wishes and fingers crossed you don't have to wait long! 

Have you considered chatting with Ingram? If I recall correctly he did offer to meet online. Might give you some fresh helpful perspectives. 

Of course you decide if you need this or not. 

Hang in there! It's always darkest before the dawn. Trust me, been there  
Btw, none of us here are without sins. We have wronged others, done harm and hurt in one way or another. 

Even these days I get mind images of people that I've hurt in the past, and all I can do is send Metta to them, wishing them well. May they be happy at heart, may they be free from suffering. May I too be free from suffering, may I be happy at heart. 

I'm surprised that OCD is the main diagnosis, given your history of childhood trauma. Of course you have obsessive thoughts, but those are a symptom rather than the cause. I know that insurers (NHS) like CBT because it promises quick results, but in my experience it was a fairly superficial treatment. I hope it provides you some relief, but please consider pushing for some deeper talking therapy if you can possibly get it.

Hi Louis, and thanks for the update. At the very least, you can have a sense of one of the right wheels turning, however slowly. The OCD diagnosis is a hypothesis that will be tested in your therapy and your life, and you have to start somewhere. And once you've got a shovel into that ground, you'll be turning up the deeper dynamics, no matter what anyone thought when you first started digging. So, hurray.

I just want to feel like a normal human being again and not be contaminated with this constant feeling of guilt and worthlessness. 

Amen to that. I know how debilitating that sense of guilt and worthlessness can be, and the vicious circle dynamics of it, spiraling down into further guilt and worthlessness. I am plagued by it myself, often enough, and have been humbled enough by that kind of compulsive, seemingly irremedial suffering to respect the dilemmas of the condition. You are taking steps on multiple fronts, which is pretty heroic and courageous, in context. Hang in there with all of them, including that amazing hard-won hour a day of sitting. I can't speak to solving anything, but I do know that with committed practice you do come into a place sometimes that is deeper than the constant harangue of the guilt and worthlessness voices, and that quiet, even a taste of it, is precious. Even a moment's glimpse of a more spacious, unburdened existence has its effect. Like a glimpse of the sun between heavy clouds, you can know there's clear sky, that this heavy locked-in cloud cover is indeed not the bottom line. So may you glimpse that shining, and that blue sky, once in a while, even here in the pits. And know that you're not alone in the pits, and that we're rooting for good weather for you.

Boom. There it is OCD. Louis I have OCD. There have been parts of my life where the OCD has shown up in the form of hyperchondris and going to ERs and such. I have learned to live with it. The good news is cognitive behavioral therapy is very effective aggainst it as well as certain SSRis. I think metta meditation too. Meditation + CBD will make it much better. DON'T believe your thoughts. Although they will be persistent and nagggaig, n reallity, they are have  no basis - they are empty, insubstantial, fleeting, imperment. Let me know if i can help further.

Hi Louis! Please read this! Pure O was something I experienced when I was 19-28 I had an obsessive thought process that would not go away. It was debilitating, I couldn't function anymore. It wreaked havoc on me, I was completely destroyed. I noticed though that the more I fought with the obsessive thought and reacted to it the stronger it became! I also noticed that there were times throughout the day that the thoughts weren't there! Together with cbt, medication, therapy and my own will to understand, I learnt that these thoughts were not true but I never said that to myself. I always said to myself yes they are true and so what? What actually changes? Nothing changes, you are still the same person if you believed it or you didn't! The only difference is your attitude towards it! Every time it came up I said "good". Sometimes I'd tell it to come! I'd say I'm ready for you, come any time you like! I exposed myself to the doubt, uncertainty, fear. I became fearless to the obsessive thoughts and they lost there power and stopped coming. I joke about it now and can't believe I was even worried about it all! I'm still open to the possibility of it all! All of this work I did naturally led me to meditate because it was about letting go or resistance! What was happening though? I felt doubt, uncertainty, anxiety, fear but mostly DOUBT in myself and was fighting it! Anxiety in of itself is really having a lot of doubt especially OCD. Doubt feels shit, it's yuk but it's just doubt. Having doubts doesn't mean shit! You have doubts and you push on, you doubt again if you're ever going to get anywhere, you just keep going even if you don't know if you're ever going to make it. It's like taking a leap of faith and I'll tell you right now that the leap is worth it! There's a way out I promise! 

Another thing! I don't want to add more confusion to your problems but I found that this obsessiveness was in everything I did not as strong as the obsessive thought but still present. However I never performed overt compulsions like a lot of actual OCD sufferers do. I went and saw so many psychologists and some said OCD because I was describing a repetitive thought pattern!! However 2 psychologists I've seen who were steeped in there own spiritual practice and helped countless people out of problems like this never said I had OCD. They said there was an obsessive component but it was more like generalised anxiety disorder where you worry about everything and anything and sometimes that obsessiveness can latch onto one thing. Like George S has said the obsessiveness is a symptom and it's present in all anxiety disorders! Obviously speak to your psych, they will know best and listen to your experience! You will get through it. Lots of love

THIS ! This is the best advice  when handling intrusive or obsessive thoughts. I have also been diagnosed with OCD and the  thing that causes the thoughts to stick are being enmeshed with them . Back then whenever I have intrusive thoughts I try to reason with it or combat it , but what just ends up happening is that I give power to it. When you have the intrusive thought , dont try to reason with it or debate with  it. Just let it pass and go , basically just note it and then dont get involved or enmeshed with it. In my case whenever it comes up I say , " I see you " then thats it. Keep a mindful attitude to it It will save you a lot of sweat and stress , I wish I have learned to keep a mindful attitude sooner . Take care Louis . 

Fluxetine might be good for OCD. I notive an uplift in attitude - that's great! Continue to have the best possible attitide. Remember that all those intrrusive thoughts are empty, they don't mean anything! Don't pay attention to your thoughts!

Excellent. Love it. Yes, I take fluoxetine too and it helps a lot! Lots of love 

Metta to you and best wishes LJ  

Thanks for the update. It sounds like you are getting to the heart of it. I'm glad you are going to start meditating again especially metta. May you practice well.

That's good that you contacted him and it's not surprising that he didn't even remember what happened. Yeah you may have done something wrong but if you are constantly thinking about what you've done wrong you'll never give yourself the opportunity to live to your fullest potential. Reassurance and rationalising something that is obsessive does not work. It will just feed the cycle. You have proven this by calling him up and talking to him about the incident, what followed was much of the same thing, obsessive guilt. You can't rationalise something that's obsessive because obsessiveness is irrational. I know you don't like the feeling of the guilt and misery but if you want to overcome this hurdle you just have to accept the guilt and misery, just face it. Say hello to it when it arises and continue on your day. Yes it will come up instantly again & again & again and it's fucking relentless. You wonder how you can even think about other things while this shit is constantly bombarding you, it's hell on earth.
Forgiveness helps and kindness towards yourself helps. This is a step in the right direction as you're willing to accept what we all can be, shit people. If you really look at this with a microscope though you will see that you're the complete opposite, would a shit person obsess about something they did years ago? Fuck no, they wouldn't bat an eyelid, instead you chose to look at your shitness but in the process DOUBTED if you're very identity is "good". Notice the guilt, accept it. Yes it takes time and practice but the sooner you stop rationalising the sooner the obsessiveness will subside. Hang in there.

Good to hear from your LJ! Its great to see that you have been making progress I agree with George that trying to rationalize it will lead you down a downward spiral. Since now you know that it is irrational  when they come disembed from them immediately. Acknowledge them for what they are just like noting , "intrusive thoughts" and keeping a sky mind. Basing on what others have said  and reading your update I think youre trajectory is good Take care