RE: SushiK Log #2

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SushiK, modified 28 Days ago.

SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
My previous log https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/21556649

I'm noting silently Mahasi style

I have been pretty consistent for the last few months.
1h in the morning and usually 30-60min in the evening, sometime some lunch meditation as well when the weather allows it and not too noisy outside.

I started my coaching with Abre over a month ago and coming from a very pleasant place, very calm, clear and pleasant.
She helped me to pay more attention to noting my mindset.

After a few week things peaked and I had an intense meditation experience: Momentum building up, a lot of pleasure, white light intensifiying until a culmination with 3 strong beeping of white light then full black and....psssschit not the apotheose I was expecting probably because too much expectation as the momentum was getting stronger.

Anyway it followed a few days of shittiness, body pain, feeling low.

Abre diagnostic: I was probably in low equanimity, went back to A&P and now dukkha nanas.
I tend to concure as the last 2 weeks have been pretty hellish (But more outside of meditation than during).

Last night I had a long dream in which I was fighting/killing nasty people who kidnapped and hurt a family friend.
And finally today the calm is back and very very clear mind and strong mindfulness during the sit.

2 questions:

- I might or might not be out of the dukkha nanas already. If I am I don't have much recall of the different stages, except for desire for deliverance which was strongly felt.
Is that common?

- I still don't have much desire to intellectually understand what's happening. Which lead to some insight popping up at random, me being in awe by it for half a day and not recalling what exactly the insight was a week after. Is that ingrained in my experience or should I actually note it somewhere so I can recall it?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 1675 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Hi Sushi! 

Stages in DN can pass by fast even during one sit. I never really stressed about that. Instead only "stressed" emoticon about continuous noting without much lapse in mindfulness. What is happening Right Now? I don't know. Let me check. 

No matter what stage or state there is but This unfolding in some shape or form, some feel. All we can do is note/notice this, one after the other arise-pass. 

This is the name of the game; just This. Note it and be satisfied with this simplicity. Mind wants some fancy intellectual insight but we remain humbly satisfied with whatever is being served. Be it desire for deliverance or an itch on top of my nose. 

It's great you got a coach! 

Best wishes to you and I hope others here will offer more replies. 
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SushiK, modified 25 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
28/03/2021 - 30min evening sit:

Lot of pain in neck, shoulders, below the left ear, aching in the lower back, etc.
Noting but extremely unpleasant so cut it short.

29/03/2021 - 50min morning sit:

More murky and sticky than last Friday.
The mind was trying to create story around the meditation and giving identity/personality to sensations.
I was able to see it instantly but it was unpleasant.

Flash of despair morphing into anger/rage when thinking about my humanity/being.
Some calm, resting in sensations and relaxation in between.

Some body pain but less intense than yesterday.
Sam Gentile, modified 24 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 1029 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
SushiK
My previous log https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/21556649

I'm noting silently Mahasi style

Excellent

I have been pretty consistent for the last few months.
1h in the morning and usually 30-60min in the evening, sometime some lunch meditation as well when the weather allows it and not too noisy outside.

I started my coaching with Abre over a month ago and coming from a very pleasant place, very calm, clear and pleasant.
She helped me to pay more attention to noting my mindset.

Excellent as she has done for me

After a few week things peaked and I had an intense meditation experience: Momentum building up, a lot of pleasure, white light intensifiying until a culmination with 3 strong beeping of white light then full black and....psssschit not the apotheose I was expecting probably because too much expectation as the momentum was getting stronger.

Anyway it followed a few days of shittiness, body pain, feeling low.

Abre diagnostic: I was probably in low equanimity, went back to A&P and now dukkha nanas.
I tend to concure as the last 2 weeks have been pretty hellish (But more outside of meditation than during).

I would believe what she says. She's an expert in diagnosingg state. I also went through my 2nd A=P, a real min whopper, but them diidn't go into dukka nanas, went into 3rd vipassana janna, and now in Low eq
Last night I had a long dream in which I was fighting/killing nasty people who kidnapped and hurt a family friend.
And finally today the calm is back and very very clear mind and strong mindfulness during the sit.

2 questions:

- I might or might not be out of the dukkha nanas already. If I am I don't have much recall of the different stages, except for desire for deliverance which was strongly felt.
Is that common?

- I still don't have much desire to intellectually understand what's happening. Which lead to some insight popping up at random, me being in awe by it for half a day and not recalling what exactly the insight was a week after. Is that ingrained in my experience or should I actually note it somewhere so I can recall it?
Have you asked Abre these questions? Dukka nanas can be very short or long. Only she can tell from your practice.
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SushiK, modified 24 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Hello Sam,

Yes, apparently having a fall back to A&P can speed up the momentum and you bounce fast.
Last Friday very calm session was probably bouncing up to equanimity...before falling back to reobservation now.

Concerning the lack of enthusiasm for the intellectual understanding (Which wasn't the case before), she thinks it's part of the transformation.
Not unheard of to start wanting/grasping for knowledge at first before before withdrawing from it for a while.
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SushiK, modified 24 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
30/03/2021 - 40min morning sit:

Lot of inconfort during the first 20min: Spasm, lower back aching, dizziness, irascible, wanting it to stop.
Sensations are still sticky
It withdraw at some point and I had a few minutes of low equanimity, where "unconfortable" sensations weren't seen as totally unpleasant.
Brought a bit of confidence and understanding that whatever happen if I keep noting/noticing what's happening then the job is kind of being done.

More mind wandering than usual but mostly noticed (planning, meditation thought, expectation).

Out of meditation, I noticed "I" isn't satisfied with the current moment most of the time.
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SushiK, modified 23 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
31/03/2021 - 45min morning sit:

Foggy, still struggling to accept...struggling: Noting rythm isn't smooth, thinking isn't seen immediately and difficulty to identify mindset.
But acceptance is arrising more and more.

Read some J.Krishnamurti yesterday, which reminded me that there was nothing more than the present moment.
It's here each time, it doesn't care for acceptance or not.
​​​​​​​Those are just feeling, one is pleasant the other is unpleasant.

I noticed some ill-will inside and outside of meditation linked to some recent logs I read.
It all seems so detailed, clear, organized, sharp.
There is envy toward that and some self-judgement of not being good enough.

Edit: It's interesting that I'm attracted to Krishnamurti's writting considering that he is very intellectual while I'm currently not interested in intellectualizing my own path. Maybe lazzyness on my part and subcontracting the understanding to someone else.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 23 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 1675 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
How would you practice if there is no internet and no books to read? 

How would you practice if there is no one else ever practicing and you were the only one? 

Would you even practice if there was no one there to compare yourself to? 

If you were lost on a lonely island would you give up the practice because there are no books and no internet logs there, no people there to compare yourself to? 

If Krishnanurti is right and it's only about This present moment as it is why not just stop practicing and be ok with This as Is? emoticon Do it! emoticon and when you do it listen ... inwardly ... is there anything in there constantly fidgeting and reaching for the "grass greener on the other side"?

You decide if it's of benefit to carry on practicing or if you are done (per Krishnamurti's dignostics) emoticon 

I hope not to have come across as arrogant emoticon I hope to provoke you questioning all this and "look/listen" emoticon 

Best wishes to you Sushi and worry not about other people's karma (logs). 
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SushiK, modified 22 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
31/01/2021 - 25min evening sit

Fog, pain, inconfort


01/04/2021 - 40min morning sit

Wake up tired and with aching body thanks to yesterday evening workout.

I read a bit of MCTB and how during the dark night it's counterproductive to try centering on particular sensations, instead better to let the attention look at the periphery

I try to let that happen and...very, very smooth meditation.
The noting rythm was still a bit clunky and a few pain at time but it wasn't leading to much dissatisfaction/unpleasantness
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SushiK, modified 21 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
02/04/2021 - 45min morning sit

Started with ligh but very fast vibration mostly in hands, back, forearm and legs.
Ease and peace which I tried to look at and get familiar with.

Noticed my center being located at my throat (Where I can usually feel a solid lump).
I played a bit with it, moving it around.
To my head first, then to my stomach which was appeasing.

I tried moving it outside my body but then got interested into space and what it feels like.
​​​​​​​This was a bit difficult to apprehend so I might investigate a bit more next time.

Overall in a much better place than a few days ago.

Could be equanimity, could be rolling back again before A&P.
I would be fine with both because if it was dark night before I don't feel I learnt much from it so wouldn't mind too much if I had another try at it.
It could be because I already have a pretty strong understanding that my suffering is mostly caused by trying to hold up a self together or because I never had big difficulties/trauma in this life.
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SushiK, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Last 4 days I have been alternating between tranquility/very clear mindfullness and body pain (mostly left shoulder/back/neck) with foggy mind.

Yesterday/today brought a few insights:

- While meditating I suddenly felt the need to do some metta...and discovered that I actually created a lot of grudge for some people. Got the understanding that I was applying a whole lot of concept onto human beings which was leading to this grudge/suffering. The whole process was emotionnaly upseting/painful, my breath started to be very out of the usual rythmes => I experienced/understood the power of concept and seeing everything as it is  now without adding anything extra on top.

- I can't put it into word very well but it's becoming clearer that "I" isn't really the thing I thought it was. I spent a few hours this morning with the 6 sense objects being very clear and kind of replacing the "I" I'm used to.
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SushiK, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Doubt is creeping in again.
Not sure about what to do.

A part of me is saying that as long as I note what's happening to the best of my ability it's fine.
Another part is unsure because not much is happening.

Within a meditation I often adjust a bit sometime noting fast > just noticing > then trying to stay longer with a particular sensation (pain in the neck/shoulder, lump in the throat, pressure at 3rd eye) > asking question.
It's not really planed, just come this way.
Not sure if I should let it play like that or keep a more straight forward noting. 

I have pleasant sensation (vibration, chill, release of tension, expansion, acceptance, tranquility), unpleasant sensation (Tightening, stiffness, pressure, contraction, hopelessness, confusion, doubt, self judgement) and I can see & stay with both, but that's the most I can say.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 1675 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
By noting a matter of fact phenomenon we objectify it hence disembed from it momentarily. However phenomena arise-pass VERY fast and as soon we let go of noting actively moment to moment the mind tends to slip into a "story" which seems to go on in time. Doubt. Goes on in time ... 

So what can we do? 
Ingram is saying note 1-10 sensation per second. Shinzen is saying do not break that stream
of noting for the duration of the entire sit. Kenneth Folk said name that dragon and the dragon looses 50% of its power. 

Acceptance of that which is unpleasant, and keep noting it, keep naming that scary dragon. Let it hear its name and loose power. 

Time comes when we can't hide from the utterly unpleasant and the only way forward is Utter Acceptance of matter of fact arising-passing phenomena. 1-10 sensations a second. Speed will vary from stage to stage, state to state. Get to know your mind terrain. Claim
it. If it's going up hills the note aloud and only 1-2 sensations a second. If it's going down hills then speed up that noting and let it note itself emoticon 
Mind terrain changes. If there is desire to note faster, then slow down and use "there iiis ... desire to note fast, there iiiis ... (feel into it) ... wanting to attain, there iiis (look for it) ... etc ... 

If it's hard and there is strong resistance as in Doubt, then try out aloud noting. Very loud voice, even if you need to cry, then note aloud while crying and being utterly miserable. Do not give up for the duration of the entire sit. This will feel like purification later. emoticon a good thing emoticon 

Please excuse me rumbling here emoticon if you can find something useful then great and if not just ignore it all. 
Best wishes to you Sushi. 
​​​​​​​
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SushiK, modified 13 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko


So what can we do? 
Ingram is saying note 1-10 sensation per second. Shinzen is saying do not break that stream
of noting for the duration of the entire sit. Kenneth Folk said name that dragon and the dragon looses 50% of its power. 

​​​​​​​
I always find something worthwile in your comment Papa ;-)

In this case it was this, when in doubt keep it simple stupid
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SushiK, modified 9 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Didn't post for the last few days because I'm just whiny...But maybe writting it might help me reflect and bring some advises.

Warning: Whining ahead

Out of meditation, a lot of unsatisfaction with life in general, where I am and my job.
I try to reflect on how lucky I am (Got a safe job, finance are great, relatiohships are good, I'm young, healthy, I'm living in place where covid has been eradicated, etc) but, well, the dissatisfaction is still here.

During meditation it seems I'm back to 0.
No doubt about the path but doubt about my capacities, a lot of self judgement and feeling not able, "Others can do it, I can't, I'm less talented".
When trying to concentrate on the breath for the first 10-20min, it's just struggle with my throat/nose: feeling the need to scrape, cough, swallow or sniff.

Fast noting brings this maelstrom to the point I feel nauseous, like on one of this NASA machine they use to accustom cosmonaut to Gforce.

Or just hundred of random image popping into my head, no context. I note a few once in a while but it's sometime a constant flow.
​​​​​​​
Otherwise my mind goes into creating fantasy stories somewhat related to the meditation, and I'm aware of it.
Meaning that my mind is creating this shitshow while actually noticing it being done live and not liking it. And this thing is sticky, it keeps on going even while it's being noticed.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 1675 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Nice one! Keep noting not only the sense doors but also the feeling tones like Pleasant, Neutral and Unpleasant. Try and connect the noted sense door object and it's feeling tone like;

Thinkhng-unpleasant, shit storm-very unpleasant, imagining-unpleasant, misery-unpleasant, etc ... 

As for job and off cushion; do not mix it with all this on cushion practice. Be kind to self and others. Do not quit jobs or relationships when in Dukkha Nanas! emoticon 

You can do this. You ARE doing this. emoticon Relaxe the body often and no need to go too fast. Steady 1 note per second : sense door + feeling tone. 
Sam Gentile, modified 8 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 1029 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
What Papa Che said. Yes to noting feeling tones. And yes, do  NOT make any decisions while in the Dukka Nanas!
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SushiK, modified 8 Days ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Hi Papa, Hi Sam,

I got a bit stuck and got caught in identifying with the dissatisfaction sensation the last few days but no worry, I'm well aware that (in my case) it's just a sensation and doesn't need to be act upon.

I usually do the feeling tone as well but not for the whole lenght of the meditation.

This morning 45 min went smoother.
Did the sensation + feeling tone for 30min before dropping the feeling tone.
A calmer session, 1-2 sensations per sec.
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SushiK, modified 6 Hours ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Yesterday evening I twitched a bit my practice.
Instead of only 3 rounds of counting the breath to 10, I spent the first 20min on concentration.

Soon the sensation of breathing as the nostril became very clear, really like an object.
Some light came in (Access concentration?), then quite a lot of spasm, followed by strong energy in the hands/forearms.
It was kind of pleasurable but a bit too intense, anyway I took it as sukha and went to focus on it.

Then probably 1st Jhana as the experience became very different from ordinary experience.
Strong wave of energy in the limbs, forehead and starting to see black flames behind my eyelids followed by vision of demons in those flames.
They really looked like those tibetan paintings of demons with open mouth showing teeth and tongues, kind of weird because except a few time at the museum I never saw those stuff and I'm completely illiterate about Tibetan cosmology/buddhism caracteristics.

Anyway that was pretty intense and the excitement probably lowered my concentration a bit so I switched to insight....Which restarted the machine.
Soon enough the arising and passing of each sensation became quite noticable.
Same usual feeling of energetic momentum building up until the physical space between each sensation became vast (An itch on my eyebrow felt very far from the sensation of my eyes flickering, etc).
​​​​​​​I felt very light almost ethereal, spacious, lot of emptiness between the sensation.

Lasted for a while but the excitement of the experience + a slight feeling of solidity somewhere anchoring me to the ground bring it to an halt.

The whole experience felt oddly purifying.

This morning I did again 20min of concentration before insight and, if not as impressive as yesterday, it felt more efficient than usual.
I will probably keep this mechanic for my future sits.
Martin, modified 3 Hours ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 279 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Nice!

"strong energy in the hands/forearms.
It was kind of pleasurable but a bit too intense"

has the sound of piti, which is a kind of stimulating energy. Focusing on piti tends to make it stronger. Sometimes you can get a kind of feedback loop going, with piti as the object: more concentration -> more piti -> easier to stay on the object -> more concentration -> more piti -> easier to stay on the object ->...
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SushiK, modified 2 Hours ago.

RE: SushiK Log #2

Posts: 116 Join Date: 6/11/20 Recent Posts
Hi Martin,<br /><br />Yes I have an understanding of how the Jhana's work (Currently reading Brasington) but never try to practice it until yesterday.<br />In the experience it was a bit too intense, explosif and kind of surprising with the vision for me to keep focusing on it for long.<br /><br />I know what to expect now.

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