RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Sam Gentile, modified 26 Days ago.

Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
I was waiting for Abre to confirm this before I wrote anything. I follow my friend Emil also with Abre. I have ben in Equanmiity for about a month now. Abre started to talk about being in the vicinnity of Stream Entry as I kept having meditations of Bliss.

The experience itself was
I was doing my 50 min meditation and kept getting waves of Bliss after total stillness in the mind. The waves of Bliss got so intense and hit a spot where a had a tiny cessation and at the same time felt one with everything. I just erupted into this sea of tears just crying at the beauty of it and found myself saying thank you for 10 minutes.
George S, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1629 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Congratulations Sam! I'm very happy for you :-)
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Josef C, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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Congratulations Sam ! Yahoo ! Great news emoticon 
Martin, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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So happy to hear it, Sam!
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Stefan R, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 70 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
Nice! Onward and upward! 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 5375 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
May it lead you to the union of wisdom and compassion for the benefit of all beings (including you, of course)!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
May it be for the benefit of all beings Sam emoticon good man! 
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Emil Jensen, modified 25 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 254 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
Yeeeaaahhh budddyyyyy! XD
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Balint Pinczes, modified 25 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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Yo!
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J W, modified 25 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 386 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Way to go Sam!
Sam Gentile, modified 25 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Thank for all for your congratulations. I want to thank Daniel Ingram for meeting with me and changing the whole way I practice. I want to thank all the people on DhO for your support and education. And of course, I want to thank Abre Fourier for being the amazing person she is, far beyond a teacher, who guided every step of this. Thank you.
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Louis Joel, modified 24 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 115 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Started tearing up reading through this man. You've been through a hell of a lot and you deserve this so much with all of your hard work. Congrats man I am so happy for you emoticon 
Sam Gentile, modified 24 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Louis Joel
Started tearing up reading through this man. You've been through a hell of a lot and you deserve this so much with all of your hard work. Congrats man I am so happy for you emoticon 
Thank you Louis!
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Ni Nurta, modified 24 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 659 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts




I just had to do it emoticon
Sam Gentile, modified 23 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta! I love it! Thanks!
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 23 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 3179 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Glad you have found many forms of helpful support. Be sure to see how whatever this is holds up and performs across a variety of circumstances.

Best wishes!

​​​​​​​Daniel
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 22 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 680 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Happy 12th anniversary.
Sam Gentile, modified 21 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram
Glad you have found many forms of helpful support. Be sure to see how whatever this is holds up and performs across a variety of circumstances.

Best wishes!

​​​​​​​Daniel

Daniel,

Thanks for your comment and putting me on this path in the begining. I just wanted to say that Abre and I just met for an hour,  particuarly your statement. She said it looks like SE to her knowing in depth my history, but as you said about whether it holds up, we will continue to monitor that day by day. So far it has held. 

​​​​​​​Sam
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Brandon Dayton, modified 22 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 474 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
Well it certainly sounds like a contrast to your previous experience of nothing happenning (for what, 7 years?). Nice work! I'd be curious to hear if you've noticed any changes to your baseline experience since then.
Sam Gentile, modified 22 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Branndon my friend,<br /><br />To break it up into 2 questions you have: Its certainly a contrast and I owe it to the mastery of our teacher Abre. She has been tough on me but very through and since the 2nd A+P steered me through it all. The change I jave noticed in my baseline started with the cessation of self and continuues in my baseline. Everything feels lighter, like I'm not carrying an&nbsp; "extra something". It surely feels&nbsp; better than before. I'll write more after I meet with Abre tomorrow.
Aleksandar Ficovic, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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Congratz Sam!

Would you be willing by any chance to connect with me and talk in a bit more detail about your situation or answer a few of my questions regarding practice? 

​​​​​​​Thanks
Sam Gentile, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Sasha F
Congratz Sam!

Would you be willing by any chance to connect with me and talk in a bit more detail about your situation or answer a few of my questions regarding practice? 

Alexander,

I'd be happy to talk to you a bit more of the experience but pretty much it's all there. But I'd love to talk about practice. Write down a way to get to you.

Thanks!
Sasha F, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 4 Join Date: 4/22/21 Recent Posts
You can email me at alexfcvc@gmail.com or we can connect via skype through this link: https://join.skype.com/invite/LtnjA2xl5RUM
If the link does not work, my skype name is Sasha Ficovic. 

Cheers!
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Griffin, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 141 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
"I was doing my 50 min meditation and kept getting waves of Bliss after total stillness in the mind. The waves of Bliss got so intense and hit a spot where a had a cessation and at the same time felt one with everything."

Congratulations Sam! Could you give one clarification: are you saying you felt "one with everything" during the cessation, before it or after it?
Sam Gentile, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Griffin. Excellent question. As I remember it, I had a full stop (the cessation and as the self got dropped, felt one with everything. Thats the best I can remember.
Alessandro Migliori, modified 17 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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congratulations
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Ben V., modified 17 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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Congrats and thanks for sharing! It gives inspiration for practice.
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Steph, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 665 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts

​​​​​​​
Sam Gentile, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1072 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Thank you Steph! BTW, it's great to see you again. How have you been?
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Dream Walker, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1330 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
 I kept having meditations of Bliss.

The experience itself was
I was doing my 50 min meditation and kept getting waves of Bliss after total stillness in the mind. The waves of Bliss got so intense and hit a spot where a had a tiny cessation and at the same time felt one with everything. I just erupted into this sea of tears just crying at the beauty of it and found myself saying thank you for 10 minutes.
Well, Congratulations for whatever you got. I'm a bit sceptical based off your descriptions and lack of description.
You are in HIGH EQ and blissed out? well thats nice but it isn't a predominate characteristic of EQ.
"I had a Cessation" that has no descriptive qualities.
At the same time I felt at one with everything? WTF? during the cessation? before? after?
Again,, Post EQ and your emotional enough to cry? Fine, fine.

My diagnoses based off your limited information Is you went from EQ to A&P.
I will definately trust your teacher more than my ad hoc bs.
What about the usual post SE effects? got any going?
Dont mean to be a dick, but lets not just group think for no reason, or to be over polite.
Good Luck
~D
SFAH ., modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Post: 1 Join Date: 4/27/21 Recent Posts
I am also somewhat skeptical when comparing the many descriptions I have seen from Daniel and others to Sam's log now... but I was uncomfortable speaking up about it. Sam's teacher, Abre, is very popular on the DHO and I know that Sam himself is very defensive about it.

On Sam's practice log, a poster ('Edward') asked a few questions about Sam's experience & Abre's qualifications (after Sam claimed SE) and Sam became very defensive - as if by questioning Abre's qualifications, Edward was questioning Sam's attainments. Sam could have chosen to be helpful and answer the questions, but he was somewhat reactive instead. Another poster ('ahtrahddis') took it into their own hands to try and answer Edward's questions in a non-biased way (which to me, ahtrahddis's descriptions are mostly true based on my interactions with some parties involved and having hung around these circles for a while) and Sam threatened to flag ahtrahddis's post claiming it was a false opinion. Instead of pointing out where ahtrahddis may have gotten it wrong, Sam simply stated that what ahtrahddis said was incorrect and shut down the conversation.

I would have tried to link to the exact conversation above as I feel Edward and ahtrahddis were treated unfairly, but alas, I am not sure how to link the exact quotes from the practice log which can be found here: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/22343578
I think pointing out this reactivity towards the verification/label may be helpful for Sam in the long run because it almost seems like a topic that he'd like to leave 'untouched' or 'unquestioned' or 'unexamined'. 

From what I understand, formal sitting post cessation should maybe involve some cycling starting at A&P, going through EQ and then maybe having a cessation. Sam sort of talks about how, since his apparent SE, he only experiences bliss, relaxation, gratitude, etc. Obviously the cycling and nanas present differently for everyone, but not mentioning the hard stages could possibly be a flag worth taking a closer look at. Also little mention of the subsequent jhanic ability that often accompanies SE according to Daniel and others. I think leaving claims unquestioned can do a lot of harm in the long run which is maybe why it can be skillful to point it out. As the saying goes, "Wait a year and a day" before coming to a conclusion and making a claim.

I'm not trying to create drama, but since these claims and resulting interactions are all in a public forum anyway, I figured I could draw attention to them here. I also realize that the above outlined reactivity that I highlighted may have nothing to do with Sam's level of attainment; maybe he really did get Stream Entry. Then again, shutting down any and all skepticism doesn't allow for those necessary conversations to take place. I think that taking part in this forum involves exhibiting basic maturity when discussing attainments so that we can see the blindspots others point out. Otherwise, we will be prone to kidding ourselves.

I apologize for any filtering/interpretation/projection on my part that may be unskillful. May this be of benefit to everyone it may concern.
Edward, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 90 Join Date: 6/10/19 Recent Posts
Agree with the points made above by DW and SFAH. One of Abre Fournier's other clients on here also claimed 'verified stream entry' a couple of days earlier without any attempt to define what that meant, and with even vaguer phemoneonological description. That was also met with nothing but rapturous applause.   
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Emil Jensen, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 254 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Hey fellas, I'm the other sinner I guess. Lol.
And I feel like I need to jump in here, as I am indeed a little ashamed of having made a "claim" myself....

It seems people in here get different things out of these claims popping up here and there. Some feel encouraged, others discouraged. Yet others may feel offended about something, like a lack of clarity/precision over describing the claimed event and over all situation. Then there's also the aspect of bragging, which is basically a rather unwholesome thing altogether. And then there's also an aspect of defending (which I honestly haven't looked into) which also involves something unwholesome - either the defending or the accustions anyway.

Point is.. getting something productive out of ever making a claim, may not be straight forward. Perhaps we should either ban claims (LOL!) or make a formula one could fill out with all the necessary facts needed to make a proper claim. Like "describe your practice: __________, describe this kind of phenomenon over the last xx weeks/months:__________".....etc!

For me, the claim was actually the part I wanted to write about the least in my post, and I do just cringe over myself for including it. But hey, there's no going back, so let's just cruise yeah?

The lack of a proper phenomenological description, in my case, was due to my reasons for making the post in the first place - which wasn't so much to claim anything. Oh, and I also do suck at describing things phenomenologically...
I didn't wanna claim anything (although I unfortunely rushed a bit, and did!), I just wanted to get some clarity from getting some things off my chest. Like what stream entry is, what path is, and something about what difference it really makes. Personally, I used to have a lot of harmful beliefs and expectations about it. Then a cessation happened (or not, I honestly don't give a rats penis!), or more accurately: then something happened, and then I realized that this event may not be such a big deal after all. Yet, all that suffering in the past, craving for it, hating myself for not getting it...

And so I saw my cut to share some new insights that others may help deepen, and others may gain something from.

So somewhere in there, in between all the desire for recognition and the impulse to brag, was also something pertaining to pragmatic and helpful sharing.

So instead of getting protective, defense, accusative or shameful (that's me!) - what can we actually learn from a person claiming anything in here? Any ideas besides making a claim formula? lol


Bests,

​​​​​​​Emil
 
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Stefan R, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 70 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
Excuse me if I'm out of line here, I realise I'm new and on the pecking order I'm near last. I feel like commenting because I'd like some answers too. I'm genuinely curious about the whole attainments thing. 

Dream Walker and SFAH make good points. I largely agree with what they're saying, and how they're saying it; they're asking in good faith, with good intentions, and without the intention to ambush (in my humble opinion). But I have to add another question: what insights came about? 

Isn't meditation about the insight? Groovy experiences are great, but learning and development should be considered too, no? We can't just measure progress by sensations, phenomena, and experiences, right? We should also take into consideration new perspectives, significant decreases in suffering, and increases in compassion? Isn't that what it's really about?
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Emil Jensen, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 254 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 I don't think anyone is out of line, Stefan emoticon
You know, one of the things I've noticed about my own development, however far that may be along any map, is indeed that suffering deminished and all the good stuff generally amps up. I love being able to enjoy life more and suffer less, so I keep trying to make these gains.

I think a general statement about SE, is that it doesn't really change that much, it's more like a diploma for having made progress. I've noticed the benefits in that regard since waaay back.

Personally I don't think I can say exactly how my insight is deeper now, compared to before my whatever-event that seemed to restart my system. I do notice the change in mind states tho. I suppose this correlates well with theory: That after someone gets stream entry or starts on a new path, they'll start from the beginning of the stages. Which means that the dukkha that there might have been a lot of going up through the stages, is pretty much gone, replaced by a less daunting mind state, coupled with a giant refreshing boost of sorts. It's a good place, but it doesn't last. One is straight back into the dukkha nanas sooner or later and the work continues.

I fluctuate between appreciating these maps and this theory. For one thing I don't understand shit, I just nod whenever someone says something, plays along and try to correlate what I hear with my own practice. In 99.99999% of the time - at least! - , it doesn't do anything helpful whatsoever. Hah.
When it is helpful, on occasion, it's when I'm reminded that the suffering is a teacher. The stage is a teacher. That can be motivating in hard times.
When it's un-helpful, it's when I'm expecting things to happen, and I feel like I'm somehow lacking, when they then don't happen!

So if you ask me, in my current state of mind, I'll say screw attainments! I cannot make myself believe that it would make a difference to a happy person, to be informed of his position on the maps. And if you are indeed happy, you'll happily ignore all theory forever imo.
 
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Stefan R, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 70 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
Yep, agreed. With my last batch of insights, I've just realised how much our minds are accustomed to valuing sensations (even the non-experience experience of cessation) and clinging to them as a marker of identity, as being "it". There wasn't anything to get enlightened or awakened to begin with, and the sensations were already there ready to be seen as they are without interference. ​​​​​​​The ride never ends. Just be there while it happens and enjoy the chaotic tranquillity of it all unfolding on its own. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
With my last batch of insights i just realized that I would love to kick some hairy Dhamma by-the-book-know-it-all buttocks emoticon emoticon 

Sam had some rough times with his illness. How many of you know-it-all Dhamma Badasses have followed Sam's logs since the start of his journey here?!?! 

He is a genuine practitioner. He still keeps practicing. Was this SE? Was is not SE? Let's not forget we deal with people here. People that have feelings and life issues. 

Let's stop hammering Sam otherwise I will release HELL Hounds on the lot of ya! emoticon emoticon 

However both Sam and Abre (as well as Emil) could have waited a bit with saying anything. Let it simmer for a while. SE is not end of anything anyway. If anything it just adds to confusion emoticon 

One walks down the road beside a tall building. Next thing one remembers is laying down on the pavement and scratching one's head thinking "what was that?!!!" Then seeing a flower pot broken on the ground and head hurting emoticon "Ah I get it!!! I've attained to a Flower Pot!!!" emoticon emoticon emoticon 

So let's all just wait together for 1 year and 1 day before we hammer on anybody here. And of course let's wish well to each one of us. Being conscious is already tough without us adding more to it. 

Off I go now to fix my son's bicycle emoticon  Metta ta ta ta emoticon 
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Emil Jensen, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 254 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
I like this conclusion. No hammering, a lesson of some patience. And of course som kicking ass. I love a good me a good beating of enlightened butts! In fact, I love a good fight. Anyone wanna have a go, just a friendly round of course ^_^


I think one reason why I got a little hyped when my whatever regular everyday normal whatever it was experience occured, was becuase I got it hyped for me. You know, I have this teacher who's like "I think you had stream entry, Emil". Ok!? I didn't see that coming. OMG, really? Why? How?...What is this!
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Steph, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 665 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
Y'all, with dedicated & consistent practice, combined with someone to guide you and stay on your ass a bit.. it's really not that hard to get stream entry. The main reason people don't get it earlier and practice upwards of 10 years with little progress is probably a lack of consistency, practicing a method that doesn't work for their own proclivities, and floundering around because of not having any guidance. Once a person get those things in order, which Sam did, again... it's truly not that hard or rare to knock this shit out. It's interesting that in the pragmatic dharma community that people are all about saying, "Yeah, this is totally doable! It's absolutely possible!" but then someone says they do something it and people are like, "Pfffft. Yeah right. Doubt it!"  Which is it?
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Zero, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 39 Join Date: 2/21/18 Recent Posts
Steph
 It's interesting that in the pragmatic dharma community that people are all about saying, "Yeah, this is totally doable! It's absolutely possible!" but then someone says they do something it and people are like, "Pfffft. Yeah right. Doubt it!"  Which is it?
That's really too simplified of a summary of what's going on here. It's both. It's possible to attain stream-entry and they're (apparently) clear indicators, a checkbox of what constitutes attainment of the insight. Even Daniel Ingram thinks it's harmful to claim stream-entry when it's not the thing. But, maybe that harm is overblown? Who knows... is there really just one master checklist of what constitutes attainment? If there is, everyone who wishes to share that they got what they got should rattle off the descriptions. Doing so increases the integrity of spaces like this. I totally believe Sam and Emil, mainly because Abre said so. They're practice logs are both dedicated too. Apparently Abre is trustworthy right? Or is she not?
Steph
practicing a method that doesn't work for their own proclivities
It would be really interesting to catorgorize methods depending on each other's proclivities. Like is there a chart or guide for something like that?
Derek2, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 187 Join Date: 9/21/16 Recent Posts
The main reason people don't get it earlier and practice upwards of 10 years with little progress is probably a lack of consistency, practicing a method that doesn't work for their own proclivities, and floundering around because of not having any guidance.

This should be a sticky. emoticon
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Emil Jensen, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 254 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
Yeah, good point also! 
really, it should be called...steam..entity?! Because stream entry is basically like a fart: pretty pleasant but not that big of deal. Oh, and others may not like the smell of it as much as oneself!
George S, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1629 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I feel like I should say this, since I was the first person to offer congratulations. Sam, your description of the cessation itself was too vague for my taste, but I assumed that you must have given a fuller report of the phenomenology to your teacher, upon which she based her assessment. You later said this was the entire description you gave her, which I found surprising, but obviously she knows your practice the best and has more experience in these matters. It all sounds a bit blissy to me and there doesn’t seem to be the typical post-SE cycling, but I could easily be wrong.

Whatever it was Sam, it’s a great sign of progress and you have come an amazingly long way in your practice. It’s all too easy to make a claim and get caught in a tough situation you never anticipated where you feel like you have to defend it and there are doubts. I know this only too well from personal experience and many of us have done this! There’s a great thread on this from Daniel called The Isolation of Blowing It. I’m not saying you did blow it, I have no way of knowing, but it can help to take the pressure off to know that it happens and it’s not a big deal. In any case, so much of post-SE practice is about relinquishing attachment to attainments, states and stages that it’s as well to get used to it! Whether it was SE or not, there’s only one thing to do - keep going emoticon
 
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Steph, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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I think either the Visuddhimagga or Vimuttimagga includes descriptions of which practices are suited toward various proclivities.  Forget which one and I'm not about to go dig through those huge volumes to figure it out right now. Maybe it's both of them. Other than that, this takes alot of trial and error. I don't think you can fully base it on those volumes, probably. There's so much variation in peoples' personality types, individual quirks, mental faculties, general ways of being wired that it's tough to say certain practices will for sure work well for an individual. How somebody is on paper and what they're actually like in experience are pretty different, so it'd be tough to do a checklist analysis of this sort of thing. An off-topic example but still funny for illustrating this pont - on paper based on my interests, I should be totally into fantasy/sci-fi, but I hate that genre. LOL.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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Oh I love fantasy and science fiction emoticon emoticon emoticon 

If people here don't get off Sam's back I was planning to go full on Harry Potter on them emoticon emoticon emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
" I totally believe Sam and Emil, mainly because Abre said so. "

There is this story (if we choose to believe it) of Mr Buddha when he awakened. Mara came infront of him saying "how can you be sure this indeed awakening. You need to find someone else to verify it for you". Buddha reached with his right hand towards the ground and touched it saying "the earth is my witness". In that instance Mara disappeared. 

I guess we can't trust Mr Buddha as he got no outside verification emoticon emoticon 


​​​​​​​emoticon 
Have a nice day you all. Im
off to make some dinner emoticon 
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 203 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Daniel Ingram gave a lot of thought to the issue of awakening, judging by the chapter on “Models of the Stages of Awakening” in MCTB2 which is more than 100 pages long. I don't think anyone can voice an opinion about this issue that can't be found there. For those who haven't read it, or have forgotten, let me paste the conclusion:

​​​​​​​The field that this book mostly concerns itself with is the mind gone very, very right, with difficult phases like the Dark Night—which can be compared to post-operative rehab after hip replacement surgery—being the obvious qualifier. The amazing things we can learn to do and clearly perceive with our minds, the profound transformations of consciousness, the extremely rare experiences we can have in the far upper strata and profound depths of the world of our minds and bodies during meditation, and the perception alterations and realignments that these sorts of practices can produce, are also similarly vast. It is a real tragedy that we have inherited such small, narrow, linear, unsophisticated, cookie-cutter models from the past and tried to cling to them as if they were the be-all and end-all of what is possible descriptively, terminologically, and experientially.”

A mind gone very, very right sounds good to me.
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Ni Nurta, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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My only quarrel was with "total stillness" as I do not think anyone at SE would achieve pure conscious 8th jhana which is the only state I would describe this way. That said I remember having also considered my mind pretty still. Feeling kinda one with everything is I guess expected but maybe not. I had similar experience where I felt connected to everything and I remember having rapid cycling and consecutive cessations for quite some time afterwards and that was despite not knowing what fruition even was, thing I learned from MCTB few years later. Daniel's description felt like something similar but not quite the same while 2nd path description was like Daniel described fruitions thus 2nd path claim at the time because it was literally second type of cessation. Cycles sped up after 2nd path also but not so much as the first time.

So as far as I am concerned I have no issues with Sam description and claim.
As for rapid cycling it is imho merely correlated with SE, and while because it is such common effect it increases confidence I would not use it lacking as disqualification criteria, especially after such short time and because these things can manifest itself very differently.
Rather I am waiting if Sam will put description of one particular effect/realization/change which I had but didn't see anywhere including MCTB. Since the fruition seem to be somewhat similar then maybe this thing too. We will see emoticon

ps. Why would high EQ not have bliss in it? EQ is rather dry but high EQ is always blissful. Normal jhanic experiences in contrast to pure concentration states are mix of many different jhanas including elements from formless jhanas even this stage (which can explain stillness) and obviously at high EQ there will be a lot of 4th jhana qualities which especially with other jhanic qualities can be ridiculously blissful. My whole practice, especially since 2nd path was to control my mind in such way that I remain in high EQ with occasional cessation and paths (in case cessation was new type) which caused it to collapse so "meditations on Bliss" are imho not only a valid method but the method ;)
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Stefan R, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

Posts: 70 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
Hey Che, I wasn't having a dig at Sam or anyone. I merely posted my curiosity. I think it's perfectly natural for people to get curious and ask questions when little detail is given on such a momentous event. 

PS: Pretty sure none of us would be talking about the Buddha if he didn't disseminate his insights to others; and if all he did was point to the ground and left it at that, we'd definitely have never heard of him and his impact throughout history would have been close to nil. Nobody asked the Buddha "what did you see?" but they asked him "what did you learn? and what can you teach us?" which was the point of my initial question. That was verification, in the teachings, perspectives he changed, and the wisdom he shared. I asked in that spirit. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 14 Days ago.

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Stefan R
PS: Pretty sure none of us would be talking about the Buddha if he didn't disseminate his insights to others; and if all he did was point to the ground and left it at that, we'd definitely have never heard of him and his impact throughout history would have been close to nil. Nobody asked the Buddha "what did you see?" but they asked him "what did you learn? and what can you teach us?" which was the point of my initial question. That was verification, in the teachings, perspectives he changed, and the wisdom he shared. I asked in that spirit. 
That is deep, very nice

However I am pretty sure people most people were concerned about existence of soul, what he had experienced and crowd favorite... siddhis ;)
Also "what can you teach us?" was mostly to have something they do not have to think too much about, maybe some simple to do meditation practice that you just do like a ritual everyday for as little time as possible and from that you automatically get to Hindu heaven. Same old same old.

Also seeing is important in topics where people are generally not sure what they see at all. If you know you should see something it will be used as your indicator if you are going in right direction.

What Buddha did was balancing teaching of how things are with how they need to be presented to not cause feeling you have just hit wall higher than you can possibly climb. That is a rare skill. Most people use others teachings because they are proven to be digestible and yet teachers differ in how well they can lead people to whatever is the destination of the said teachings.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 14 Days ago.

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emoticon My apologies to you Stefan emoticon I was not talking to you above. I only used your quote as it inspired me to write that funny stuff about kicking Dhamma buts emoticon emoticon 
Im just being silly of course emoticon 
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Stefan R, modified 13 Days ago.

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Posts: 70 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
@Dusko: All good. I felt like clarifying my point anyways. I come in peace!

@Ni: yeah the Buddha was a wise guy. Context is paramount.

I guess seeing things can be important! But I've had tonnes of dreams with profound phenomenology, yet nothing was learned. I think my overall point was aimed at balancing things; one thing I've noticed is the obsession with phenomenology, and I'm trying to push the needle back to the middle by advocating for insights/changes/learnings/perspectives/etc.

Ok, your awareness collapsed into itself after strobing lights, or there was a merger between this side and that side, etc... but can you now find reasons to be generous to your annoying neighbour? Can you find compassion even for the evilest members of our species? How about finding kindness for those who've hurt you in the past? How does compromising feel now? What values have you realised meant more than before? How present are you in conversations now? How do extreme emotions feel now? How is the mind operating? Etc... 
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Ni Nurta, modified 12 Days ago.

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I think enlightened people wont be generous for show or praise but will help when someone needs it, will shoot the evil motherflocker down or axe him or something... with as painless method possible of course, will be kind unless this is the evil bastard, can compromise, won't understand this question, are as present as they are already gone, tend not to have as much extreme emotions, their mind operate the way they made it to operate, etc.
George S, modified 13 Days ago.

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With all of us monkeys making so much noise in the peanut gallery ...

​​​​​​​Are you ok Sam?
Sam Gentile, modified 13 Days ago.

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George S
With all of us monkeys making so much noise in the peanut gallery ...

​​​​​​​Are you ok Sam?

No, I'm not fucking Ok. I just woke up to all of this. I remember my teacher saying that a lot of these people don't know what's its like to spend 10 full years with students, diagnosing, working with their personal histories in detail.. But I'm not Ok. Asking her what she wants me to do.
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Steph, modified 13 Days ago.

RE: Just attained verified Stream Entry

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Sorry to hear you're not doing okay, Sam. I hope Abre can help.

It really sucks when people make a claim and others start treating that person like a labrotory rat - poking and prodding to see if it matches up to every tiny bit of criteria of their expectation for that claim. FWIW, nobody is obligated to tell anybody else anything about their life experience that they don't want to share. There's this sense that attainments are asuch a big deal and in some altruistic sense those you make a claim owe it to others to let them in on everything they're experiencing.  To be clear, the number of things a human being owes to anybody else in their lifetime is exactly zero. Sam, just keep keeping on. You don't have to explain shit about your life to anyone here if you don't want to.
Sam Gentile, modified 13 Days ago.

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Thank you Steph. Abre has been doing this her whole life and gave me this response

"Dear Sam
What you should do is continue with your practice. And yes, thhis is what is bound to happen on a public site. Continue with your practice, your development, and that will be your answer"\

Warmly,
​​​​​​​Abre
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Steph, modified 13 Days ago.

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Great advice. Cheers!
Edward, modified 13 Days ago.

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Hi Sam,

I'm sorry that this discussion has been painful for you. You've clearly got a lot of pals on this site and although it must seem that way, the posts above have not been aimed personally at you and no one here wishes you ill.

I hope that you might be able to take a step back and see that the above is simply strangers discussing claims of attainments on a website created to disusss strangers' claims of attainments. 

Best wishes,

Ed 
Sam Gentile, modified 13 Days ago.

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I have recieved one more instruction from Abre as I want to defend all this.
Yes, just let it go. And know that I did not read the posts. You continue to do your practice and keep your notes. What is important is your liberation, your development. Time will confirm what is in a more certain way. Put your bit of bruised ego at being doubted (I assume) aside, and continue your practice until you have more to report.

Be well, Sam!

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