RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Brandon Michael Rohe, modified 16 Days ago.

Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 3 Join Date: 6/1/21 Recent Posts
So, it seems that "I've attained" this form of cessation. A couple descriptions Daniel gives seem quite on the money regarding what I experienced. The lights were off you might say. Although this seemed to be an almost instantaneous event, it felt as if I was within this "black hole" of nonexistence for what might as well have been eternity. I came right back to where I was before the cessation as if nothing had changed in an objective sense. Subjectively, I have really no choice but to peg this as the highest experience of my life although it was really more of a non-experience. This is compared to many rather jaw-dropping events in the past that now seem like mere appetizers. 

The glow phase Daniel describes was certainly present for me as well. 

Part of the reason I come to this community is in my normal spiritual circles and practices, nirodha samapatti is rarely discussed. 

I was reading in an old thread about this:

"Conformity Knowledge (insight stage 12), Change of Lineage (stage 13), and Path (stage 14) occur as a package, taking three very rapid sequential mind moments, and leading immediately and unfailingly to Fruition (stage 15). So, once one gets to Conformity Knowledge, one immediately in the next moment goes to Change of Lineage (the moment that changes one into a stream enterer), then Path (the result of Change of Lineage, meaning the first moment of stream entry) in the next moment, then Fruition in the next moment, without any breaks, pauses or interruptions in that rapid, transformative process." 

In the context of the old thread, it was said that stream entry is typically thought to come before nirodha samapatti. It was said that stream entry is paired with going through the different stages listed above. Can someone give me some clarity and description on these stages? I'm not very familiar with all of the terminology.

I had some very specific, rapid, and intense experiences momentarily before the cessation which could maybe line up with this idea of going through these stages, but this did not occur during a typical meditation or Buddhist context of practice. 
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Pepe ·, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 377 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Brandon Michael Rohe, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 3 Join Date: 6/1/21 Recent Posts
Thanks for the info! I spent most of my night reading through much of the focused writing around these topics in MCTB. It's just quite crazy to me that this happened outside of meditation using rather individualized techniques which are quite outside of most meditative practices. It's kind of like if Daniel had his first instance of this while working with Magick rather than meditation. Significant spiritual development was there as a foundation, but this rare attainment seemed to just land in my lap. 

According to Daniel & others, I should technically have to be on the 3rd path to reach this. I mean, I can accept this and certainly don't think it is necessarily unlikely, but it is a bit strange to actually have reliable maps from Buddhism supposedly backing up the legitimacy of this experience. I'm used to being a black sheep usually in contexts such as these. 

Idk how Daniel's time engagements are, but I would love to share the specifics of this experience if he would be interested. Judging from the content he has made around a few key topics, I think he might enjoy some elements of this quite a bit. 
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Pepe ·, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 377 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Daniel is a busy man, but he's fond of this topic so perhaps interested in having a chat. Try to contact him at daniel (underscore) ingram (at) interactivebuddha (dot) com .

Best of luck!
​​​​​​​Pepe

P.S.: You can also post the topic at https://awakenetwork.org/forum/recent as there'are many seasoned meditators there which may know the field 
Brandon Michael Rohe, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 3 Join Date: 6/1/21 Recent Posts
I appreciate the help. I was reading some of the links you sent, and I'm becoming a bit confused as to the specific phenomenological differences between Fruition and nirodha samapatti. Daniel's descriptions of nirodha samapatti seem EXACTLY like what I experienced other than the set up he describes which was not present. The afterglow was as he described, but it lasted at most a few hours at "full strength." Peace, tranquility, and strong comfort with solitude were there. It was basically walking on cloud 9. 

Daniel describes Fruition as a type of non-experience essentially too which also has a gap in time related to breath patterns. He doesn't describe it with the same zest and regard as NS, but much does seem comparable in what I've read so far. 
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 696 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Can you identify any feeling of trying to right your wrongs?
​​​​​​​NS is like that
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 5450 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I'm glad you had such an amazing experience. From what you describe, it sounds like stream entry to me. Not that I am diagnosing you - that can't really be done on a forum, and I'm no dharma teacher. What I can say is that it sounds pretty much exactly like my stream entry, which was confirmed by my teacher Michael Taft. If this is the first time you had any experience like this and you don't know the difference between fruition and NS, then it's not NS. It just isn't possible. The stream entry afterglow was amazing for me and lasted days. It sounds like stream entry through impermanence door fruition because of the rapid sequence. That's good news, I'd say,  because it means that there are even more amazing experiences out there for you. If it had been NS, you would now be an arahant just like Daniel, and quite honestly, I think that is much rarer than people's selfdiagnosing on forums like this suggests. Fruitions are very commonly claimed prematurely as well, as there are many near misses that present similarly, but if I were to guess, my bet would be that you had one, because you describe both a possible door moment and a clear experience of cessation. I see nothing that indicates that it would be anything beyond that, and NS is way beyond that. Then again, NS is above my paygrade too. Parts of me would welcome more descriptions of what it is like, and how it differs from ordinary fruitions, because I'm curious, but on the other hand I suspect that it's probably a good idea not to script oneself too much.

Best wishes for your practice and wellbeing! 
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Ni Nurta, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 692 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
What practices were you doing?
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 222 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
When it comes to terminology there are always multiple takes on them.  If you want to read the yogic view read "The Yoga-Sutra of Patanjali by Georg Feuerstein. I found it very interesting and clear.
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David Matte, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 81 Join Date: 8/3/19 Recent Posts
What were you doing prior to this non-experience? There is also reported to be a blissful after-glow with fruitions.
​​​​​​​Daniel's has said NS is a rare and difficult attainment:
​​​​​​​
only anagamis and arahats with mastery of the formless realms and the ability to ride a strange line between samatha and vipassana with a high degree of balanced, tranquil, easy control can even think about attempting this, so it is already a strangely small crew. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of people that I personally know that I actually believe have attained to this. If you are not an anagami or arahat with strong technical mastery of jhana and insight, you haven't attained this, so you can remove it from your differential diagnosis. In fact, if you are asking the questions you are, it is pretty much guaranteed that you haven't attained this. The chances of most meditators attained this in their lifetime are so small that it is very rarely something to seriously consider as what might have occurred. 
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 696 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Brandon Michael Rohe So, it seems that "I've attained" this form of cessation. A couple descriptions Daniel gives seem quite on the money regarding what I experienced. The lights were off you might say. Although this seemed to be an almost instantaneous event, it felt as if I was within this "black hole" of nonexistence for what might as well have been eternity. I came right back to where I was before the cessation as if nothing had changed in an objective sense. Subjectively, I have really no choice but to peg this as the highest experience of my life although it was really more of a non-experience. This is compared to many rather jaw-dropping events in the past that now seem like mere appetizers.  The glow phase Daniel describes was certainly present for me as well.  Part of the reason I come to this community is in my normal spiritual circles and practices, nirodha samapatti is rarely discussed.  I was reading in an old thread about this: "Conformity Knowledge (insight stage 12), Change of Lineage (stage 13), and Path (stage 14) occur as a package, taking three very rapid sequential mind moments, and leading immediately and unfailingly to Fruition (stage 15). So, once one gets to Conformity Knowledge, one immediately in the next moment goes to Change of Lineage (the moment that changes one into a stream enterer), then Path (the result of Change of Lineage, meaning the first moment of stream entry) in the next moment, then Fruition in the next moment, without any breaks, pauses or interruptions in that rapid, transformative process."  In the context of the old thread, it was said that stream entry is typically thought to come before nirodha samapatti. It was said that stream entry is paired with going through the different stages listed above. Can someone give me some clarity and description on these stages? I'm not very familiar with all of the terminology. I had some very specific, rapid, and intense experiences momentarily before the cessation which could maybe line up with this idea of going through these stages, but this did not occur during a typical meditation or Buddhist context of practice. 


I tried formal practice, but never experienced this state by any other means than what I call surrender. It's similar to a 5-meo-dmt trip and both are prone to raise some eyeballs.

​​​​​​​Edit. It can get kind of odd at some points. Kind of like when a doctor gives you orders and you kind of tweak those instead of following them to the letter. I don't know what the result will be.

Edit 2x My initial assumption was that you did experience N.S.

​​​​​​I have an issue with posting. Most of what I say may not be helpful. I do get a Euphoric hit off it.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 12 Days ago.

RE: Nirodha samapatti? Seeking clarity

Posts: 3185 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hey, if you want to talk about the phenomenology, differential diagnosis, and the like, I have a bit of time late next week, so let me know. In the meantime, see if you can do whatever it was again, preferably a few times. There is nothing like repetition to help clarify what might be what.

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