I've read and listened to almost all the resources I can find on the topic.  listened to the diaries. and even in the diaries on firekasina.com/org there seems to be quite a bit of variation on how people are practicing. the specifics of what they are doing vary.

So my question is how do i use fire kasina if my intention is stream entry?  Do I just watch/observe/notice what's happening without trying to direct or influence it?  and stay with that. that's what I am doing at the moment.  

2nd question.  the murk. there is always the red dot when i close my eyes after watching the flame.  after a while of sitting though the red dot fades pretty quick after closing my eyes.  when i start my sitting, the red dot takes at least a few minutes to fade.  after sitting for 30/40/50 + minutes the red dot fades after 30 seconds or less.  is this the murk?  or is the murk when the dot turns black (well blacker than the black around it)?  this happens sometimes.  if it is the first option, how long do i stay with that before opening my eyes back to the flame?   

or- is the murk when i watch/charge up on the flame, shut my eyes to the after image, and there is no red dot at all arising?  i have not experienced this.  maybe once or twice, but ive put that down to low level flame/flickering.

im also feeling a little bit skeptical about calling the red dot access concentration.  having gotten to access and tasted that - and the time it takes - it just seems like the red dot is very very low effort/concentration. im not some kind of hard core jhana person, im totally open to different perspectives and have generally worked with a leigh brasington understanding.  i just feel like seeing the red dot is not much at all.  whereas with access concentration i have a whole body shift in concentration and presence and it takes 45 minutes to get there on a good day.  im definitely no authority on this, it just doesnt sit right logically with me.

Have you crossed the A&P? This will set the tone for the rest of your goals.

i dont think you read my posts.

It doesn't sound like you are in the murk. The murk happens after the fireworks of the A&P. What you describe sounds like trying for access concentration

Edit: I am far from an expert on this topic. I just strayed into the territory from time to time. You would be better to hear from others. 

Thank you for sharing your experiences and these questions.


Just watching/observing what's happening without intention to shift it has been sufficient for insight to arise from Fire Kasina in my experience.


From my personal practice and comparing notes with a few other practictioners, the specific visuals you may experience seem to be highly individualized. For example, I have practiced Fire Kasina by focusing on the illumination behind closed eyelids for 4+ hours a day three days in a row and experienced deep insight without ever seeing the red dot.



You will have to learn how your experience shifts through the Fire Kasina practice for yourself. Guidance or advice from others can be helpful for pointing out sticking places or getting around obstacles but ultimately it's up to you to take into account your whole range of experience including physical sensations, emotional feeling tone, and visuals.


Disclaimers aside, my hunch or guess would be that you're entering the murk when the red dot disappears. I would suggest staying with what happens for 30 - 90 seconds after the red dot is gone. If all you see is darkness, that is a-ok. Just notice the subtle qualities of that darkness. Does it appear completely uniform and consistent all the way through, or does the darkness wave and shift a bit? How does looking at that darkness feel in the body? Do you notice any mental narratives or thought streams arising as you watch the darkness?


Gently returning the mind back to this moment, to what's happening right now, gently inclining away from what we want life to be doing toward the fields of flickering experience arising in the sense doors is the essence of insight practice.


May your diligent application of this powerful practice produce fruit for you and all beings you encounter.


Be well, friend.

Thank you for your insightful response

Just recapping - you're suggesting to watch the red dot then when it fades keep watching whatever is there for another 60-90 seconds.

This brings up a couple more questions! 
1. Should I do this whenever i practice - not wait for the red dot to start to fade quicker?
2. Do I even need the flame then?  I can just watch the imagery behind my eyes?

I've thought quite a bit about the 2nd option already - and Im really intrigued to read that you had a decent whack at this practice. 

Reflecting over the last few days on how I was approaching fire kasina, I realised it doesnt matter what is there. murk, red dot, visuals, etc.  My current method is to just watch and notice what is happening.  Concentrating on the dot, but not holding onto it.  Not trying to force or influence the exprience.   From the material Ive founnd on fire kasina, insight, concentration, this seems like a solid path forward if my main intention for the practice is stream entry.

The visuals have been pretty interesting though.  All within the dot, which makes it tough to see because generally it's tiny.

Although today I was disrupted - my dog was going nuts, my phone died (im using the timer on it) - and I had to get up and come back to my sit.  Straight away - first red dot - it was like looking through a (tiny) window.  This is pretty common.  But this time the detail was sharp.  There was a desert town with stone builidngs - like ancient north africa or palestine - and the sky above was this crisp blue.  It was so far away but still seemed clear in its tinyness. Then the image faded and the red dot immediately turned into a love heart and held in that shape for about a minute.  Ive never had that shape.  Then it went into it's usual red/green dot ovalish shapishness.  For a number of personal grief reasons Ive been really wanting to do some kind of pass life regression stuff lately and I did this random guided meditation for PLR last night and had this image of a family life in ancient phoenica where I was this tony soprano looking ex soldier type in his kitchen with his wife.  I really didnt buy too much into it, but that imagery in the fire kasina practice was unexpected and really has me wondering.

Short answer: "Yes, that's what I'm suggesting."

Long answer: "I think 30 - 90 seconds is what I usually do. The exact amount of time isn't as important as giving  attention for some time to what happens after the obvious/clearly defined visuals disappear. This willingness to attend to everything seems to be what matters." I do this whenever I practice.  Feel free to determine whether or not to extend the waiting after period to fit your unique situation. Having an external flame helped me a lot to get momentum going, especially when I was starting out. When I am going through daily life, hanging out with friends, etc., sometimes I'll grab a quick 30 second break and use the imagery on my eyelids. However, for formal practice, I would encourage using an external flame. You are right on here, friend. Continuing in this way is a reliable path toward insight. From my perspective of pursuing vipassana/insight practice, the clear or sharp detail you are describing is an indication that you are on the right track. If you wish to continue forward with vipassana in this manner, I would encourage you to avoid spending too much time on interpreting the visuals at this point. Simply being present with whatever is presenting in your field of experience right now and allowing it to arise, dance, and vanish with equanimity will reveal the goal, which is present here and now in every moment of experience. All the best on your journey.

Thank you again for getting back to me.

Thinking about the fire kasina practicve I have been pondering the story of Bahiya.  I feel like this might be one of the greatest teachings in the suttas.   

"The seen is just the seen".  This so wonderfully sums up the ideas I had on how to approach this practice, which you have confirmed.  Just noticing, not attaching, not clinging, not interpreting.

Thank you for sharing this update, friend.

Your stance resonates with me. I think that if you continue practicing with this view, insight will arise.

All the best

Based on how people are using terminology rather than trying to decide on what is the correct definition, there seems to be a gliding in how the term "murk" is used. People sometimes use it to refer to the darkness behind the eyelids before it sort of crystallizes into clear visions without thereby necessarily claiming to have reached a specific level of concentration. At other times it is used to refer to a specific phase in the practice that follows when one has done the practice for a while and gone through a peak that can be described as more fireworkish. And often some kind of combination is used, as the practicioner in that particular phase also needs to focus more on that darkness that isn't really a darkness. I have never done a fire kasina retreat, so I can't tell for sure, but I suspect that distinguishing the murk as a phase becomes both clearer and more relevant while in retreat. When practicing in daily life, it can be harder to tell what is an indication of a new development and what is variation in concentration abilities having to do with other factors. Regardless, it probably doesn't hurt to stay with the darkness for a little while before refreshing. If you try it and find that it makes your practice difficult to maintain, then just start refreshing sooner for a while, I'd say. 

I might be weird but after a week of doing it the murk didn't stay dark for long.
After the red dot faded I just hunted for the spinny vortex that always seem to be there.
I think it's another way of sensing brain states. I see different kinds of lights if I am
​​​​​​​doing tranquility vs concentration practice.