When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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This very moment, modified 3 Months ago.

When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 55 Join Date: 7/6/17 Recent Posts
https://danlawton.substack.com/p/when-buddhism-goes-bad?fbclid=IwAR1ewyUFlII8HIaf71wM-TF4vrxI8EmNH00Dqe9587Ju_L2fwFhDNyXfYSk


Discuss

As we have seen, ​​​​​​​Meditation related injuries occur.  I am glad he got help and is doing well.  
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
In her article he said he had logged over 4,000 hours in meditation. In his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell states that to be truely a master at something, you need to log 10,000 hours. I wonder if the meditator's tone would change if that were the case?
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
A. Dietrich Ringle
In her article she said she had logged over 4,000 hours in meditation. In his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell states that to be truely a master at something, you need to log 10,000 hours. I wonder if her tone would change if that were the case?

Sorry, him not her.
Georg S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 31 Join Date: 12/8/19 Recent Posts
In my opinion Dan is pointing at an important issue here, because negative side effects of meditation aren’t mentioned a lot, when joining an intensive retreat, at least not in the first two I attended. So there is my story for those who are interested to read (for those who are not, switch to the last paragraph). To be honest I had a lot of luck, or whatever you wanna call it, to made it through my first two retreats. My life was a mess at that time (life issues, depression (or dark night for many years because of some drug induced A&P’s and “wrong” life decisions) but I was determined to follow the instructions of the teacher precisely, which I guess helped me in the end to make it trough it. His daily evening talks helped a lot there too I guess. On this first (vipassana) retreat we have been around 40 meditators and one teacher, to whom we could speak every 2 days for about 10 minutes – not much for a beginner, who could be easily trapped by it’s own mind. And how much do you know about your mind and it’s stories (whom you belief, because of the lack of insight into the 3 characteristics) it is telling you at this time. However, I had some A&P events, always followed by lows and highs, etc. and ended in high equanimity on the last 2 days of the retreat. At the end it was a great experience, but I didn’t know how I was able to get there. On my second vipassana retreat everything seemed to go wrong. On the third day I was near the point where Dan has been. I was going to lose my mind. Thankfully I stopped practicing at this time. I guess if I would have followed Daniel Ingrams advice from his to push through it, I wouldn’t came out unharmed, because my meditation was totally (unknowingly) unbalanced at this time. Maybe this is what happened to Dan too, but I can’t say. The guidance of the teacher there was extremely poor in retrospect and it seemed like she didn’t know how to give helpful advice, or talk about what was going on with me. However, I thankfully left this retreat wounded, but not really harmed, because I took myself out of the game there. At the end I left with a good feeling to have taken care about myself and the “insight”, that I had to work on my tools (concentration, compassion) to encounter the beast (fear) I met on this retreat. Because of this experiences, I started psychotherapy and searched for a meditation teacher, whom I could trust and who knows me (I guess that is another issue when you join a retreat, where you and your teacher doesn’t know well with whom each one is dealing with). On my third retreat (vipassana – mahasi noting), which was a small group of 10 people and was led by my teacher, everyone followed his/her own (customized) meditation routine. We had one daily talk and we were allowed to come and talk to the teacher, even it was in the middle of the night, when issues arose. He also told me, that it could also happen on this retreat, that the same thing, which happened on my last retreat, could happen here. But I should not worry and come to him, if trouble is on the way. And the fear came, like it came on the second retreat - but luckily I wasn't left on my own. I had a full panic attack, but with the help of him, he guided me trough it smoothly. That happened on the 5th day. He adviced me to stop practicing and go on walks during the day and try to get myself grounded. I did that for about 2 days and was fine than. The anxiety and terror was gone. For the rest of the retreat he instructed me with daily mindfulness task, like open awareness, etc. I ended the 14 days without really having any formal practice from the 5th day, but it was really helpful, because it showed me a way to stay grounded and open to experience. One year later, with intensive daily practice in between, I did another retreat with him, and was able to made it to the end and overcome my biggest existential fear, without much trouble. I also had a cessation on the last day of the retreat, which all the pro’s and some con’s that followed. Now over a year had passed since then and much has changed for the better. Now I come to the point, why I wrote all the above. I guess one of the most important things a meditator should do is to find a teacher, which he/she trusts and who knows exactly his/her “profession”. It’s also important to know your own limits and to know when it is time to push, and when it is time to retreat – easier said than done. Books, like those of Daniel are a great source of information, but books alone, without the guidance of a teacher, can lead you into a trap. There can be a lot of information which you overlook, forget, don’t understand or misunderstand. Like the advice from Daniel that if you’re on the retreat and dark stuff is challenging you to push through it, whatever it costs. Maybe this is true for many or most of the people out there – but for me as an example, I guess it would have been the wrong advice to follow. And maybe it was the wrong choice of Dan, to follow this adivce.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
I just wrote a response which was deleted. Basically I was saying that it takes more than stream entry to fix psychosis. Once you are there, it is not good enough. But who am I to know every person's mind. It takes that much. To achive agencylessness.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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and 10,000 hours of formal practice.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 3204 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hey, very sorry to hear that people have had a hard time, including Dan Lawton and you above, but I am also vexed, as MCTB, and particularly MCTB2, which Dan Lawton, by the page count, was using, contain many, many counterbalancing warnings and bits of advice to ground down, stop practicing, not fry yourself, etc. throughout the book from Part I to Part VI. That people somehow can totally ignore them all and selectively focus on single quotes as if they are the sum total of the book, or single bits of advice taken out of context without the counterbalancing tech and advice, is immensely frustrating.

My typical instinct would be a massive quotefest from MCTB2 with all the selective quotes that say to not fry yourself, stop practicing if things are getting rough, get help, read Willoughby and Jared and David's work, focus on tranquility, chill out, back off, use discretion, etc., as well as all the other warnings about intensive practice, etc. but I am on vacation, trying to desperately to take a break, the first one I have had since coronavirus hit, as, ironically, working very hard on https://theeprc.org and https://ebenefactors.org, which are specifically designed to help the mainstream meditation world be safer and the clinical world be better able to relate to these experiences.

So, I don't generally ask for much, but I was wondering, is there anyone would be willing to volunteer to compile a list of all the key quotes from MCTB2 that tell people to chill out, seek help, stop practicing, maintain balance, listen to softer (more Yin) teachers and books, don't take advice out of context for the individual practicioner (such as don't take advice to make lots of effort to heart if you are already making too much effort, etc.) that Dan L. basically seems to have either not read, entirely ignored, forgotten about, misunderstood, or, God forbid, selectively not mentioned to further whatever his agenda is? I am guessing he never read A Still Forest Pool as I recommended, never read A Path with Heart, as I recommend... I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but, after the whole Analayo thing, I am just a touch more paranoid about the possibility of active agendas over benign negligence and ignorance.

(Given what a hog MCTB2 is, there is a high probability he never read the whole thing, or read it too fast to really get what it was trying to say.)

I believe such a list of counterbalancing MCTB2 quotes, and even counterbalancing quotes from books that MCTB2 recommends explicitly to balance it out, would be generally helpful for others who might similarly have such selective and unfortunately imbalanced vision regarding MCTB2, but I just don't have the time at the moment and won't likely for the next month, but I really think it needs to be done. Any help welcome! I think you would be doing a real service. Thanks!

May all practitioners find balance and wisdom!

Daniel
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Hey Daniel, if there was someone in the Denver area that could converse with me and help extract the bits of knowledge I could assist. Unfortunately I am currently struggling with severe shaking of my limbs and somewhat less my core, so me being the typist would probably not be wise. Following the chill out protocol myself.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
I know you are probably proud of MCTB2, and I am not dismissing its value. But does it seem like there is life in it other than what you created it to be? The extraction I took from the equanimity chapter was quite impressive, and I indeed wonder if there isn't a place for a stand alone book such as a e-pocket edition that just has the cautionary tales? Or perhaps when the next edition comes out you color code the cautionary bits in red or some other more soothing color according to if the book has applied or sustained thought implied in accordance with the reading context (I have tried to read in 2nd jhana and been sucessful but I doubt anyone else has, although editing does have a ryhthm to it and I can just see some dark age monk getting a buzz off of working on some manuscrpt. Speaking of which, a perfect example of what I am talking about is those Irish Iluminated Gospels. Have you seen them?)

Edit. I just got off my nightly dose of antipsychotics and am reaching to see what is possible outside of that influence.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 2169 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Just to mention something important here; 

I dropped into DN after two years of concentration practice. Never did Vipassana back then and also thought of it as a ridiculous practice. 

DN is not something exclusive to Noting or to MCTB! 

Some of us lost our shit and had no chance to remedy it even if hearing the words of wisdom in MCTB or else! 

Once the shit storm is all over you words mean shit. Took me years of no practice, talkin  therapy and just getting lost in beekeeping and music to kind of balance myself a bit. 

Back in 2011 when Shamatha lead into DN and I lost my shit a friend did point me towards MCTB and I even joined this forum (Che Guebuddha) but I was in no good shape to hear the wise words at that stage. 

First in 2019 did I muster courage and resolve to actually try Noting. And Noting helped me plow through that shit storm. Fact. 

Bottom line; concentration/tranquility practice can also crack open the DN! 

Best wishes to all. 
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J W, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 520 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Agreed... lowgear rapid noting can be really effective in getting through the challenging stuff.  And 'stuff' is not exclusive to one type of meditation i.e. Vipassana.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 5916 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Someone just crossed A&P in a session of bathing in sound and light: https://youtu.be/t-0iq-p2hT0

So yeah, one can come into the territory in many ways. For me it was trauma-induced. 
Georg S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 31 Join Date: 12/8/19 Recent Posts
Hey Daniel, 

I'm sorry that I didn't mentioned those many warnings, advices, etc. which can be found (loud and clear) in your book and it wasn't my intention to blame you,  because no book I can remember speaks so clear about the side effects, etc.. In my reply I related especially to the experiences with former teachers I've met on my way. I read MTCB2 the first time after my 2nd retreat and reading about the dark night really helped me a lot to understand what was going on on/after my first and second retreat. No one told me or spoke with me about those things before - but maybe I also wasn't ready for asking the right questions at this time too.

I think the phrase to stay and push through, while on retreat triggered me here in this topic (it first did by reading your book for the first time after my frightening experiences of losing it), because it wouldn't have been the right decision for me at that time (but who really can tellemoticon).

I guess it's nothing wrong with all your warnings, hints and advices, they are all well placed. I think some of us, like me, just have to learn by hard and fall in many of those traps that you warn of, before finding the right direction, because ignorance can be a big hindrence and I therefore don't know if the right words of a teacher, or a book, etc. can help an "ignorant" one see, when he isn't ready to see.
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Pepe ·, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 441 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
I have posted this summary of "The Seven Factors of Awakening - Daniel Ingram's Framework" (taken from MCTB2) in DhO about a year ago, and have since seen it being reposted in Reddit and AtR.

This is a post from Daniel written 11 years ago about Counterbalancing my usual tone for those who have strong mindfulness, investigation and energy (available in Daniel's best posts compilation), so that even predates MCTB2 by a long stretch. The  resources are available, for those willing to find them.

But it would really be helpful if we could implement sticky threads so as to have one thread with pointers to dharma resources for new participants.

I'm currently busy with work, family duties and meditation, so please don't count on me this time for compilation work.

Hope this one-page summary would be useful as a kick-start. 

(edit: grammar mistakes)
Georg S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 31 Join Date: 12/8/19 Recent Posts
Thank you Pepe for that link. It's describing exactly my case and what was needed to get me out of the dark territory.
This is a post from Daniel written 11 years ago about Counterbalancing my usual tone for those who have strong mindfulness, investigation and energy (available in Daniel's best post compilation), so that even predates MCTB2 by a long stretch. The  resources are available, for those wishing to find them.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 5916 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Great idea from Pepe, about such a sticky thread. It would probably be helpful if moderators were to have the possibility of sticking threads. It would save many people lots of extra work. 
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J W, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 520 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
I don't know if there is a way to create sticky threads under Recent Discussions (there is under Categories).

My recommendation would be to add something about it on the Home Page, as that is pretty likely to catch a user's eye.  We could also have the URL www.dharmaoverground.org redirect to www.dharmaoverground.org/home rather than straight to the discussions page.

Also could post a link to the 'Idiot's Guide To Dharma Diagnosis' thread there on the home page.

Also, Metta to anyone having a rough time in meditation and/or life, and also Metta to anyone who's work is taken out of context and/or misunderstood, I am sure that can be very frustrating (even for an Arhat emoticon
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 1618 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I'm reading the article now. For what it's worth, when I read this:

"Yet, somewhere six or seven years into my practice, whatever progress I was making petered out. I was experiencing a growing sense of bodily agitation and began self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. Looking back, it was also during this time period that I had my first dissociative experiences, in which elements of my sense of self became separated in a way that impaired my ability to function."


alarms go off for me. This is also right before he reads MCTB. Just to write a quick note, I'll say that this is the BIGGEST problem meditators have: alarm bells go off but they search for some piece of advice or text that will rationalize not going _into_ the problem and investigating. In the way that "the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose", a meditator can quote teachers to find the advice they need to avoid owning and investigating their problems. 

So my advice for the Dan of long ago would be "Hey Dan, seems like meditation isn't quite working... your body is agitatied... and you are falling into addiction... and you are dissociating... What's going on here?"  What is needed is a modality that will allow Dan to explore what is happening. It could be meditation, therapy, etc. But the measure of success is the degree to which the causes and conditions of this suffering is  uncovered. It could be past trauma. It could be that he is going through a mid-life crisis. It could be that he hasn't made peace with mortality. It could be that his worldview is too idealized and reality is causing cognative dissonance. It could be that he is having relationship problems. It could be many many many things, but these problems can't be "skipped over", they need to be appreciated, respected, and gently investigated. 

Okay, now back to reading the article...
 
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 1618 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Ugh, yeah Daniel, my natural paranoid naturally interprets this the same way you suspect:

[Dan has just mentioned MCTB, then soon after breaks down, and is now talking with Willowby]

"She said that many of the leading figures in the world of mindfulness meditation have had experiences like mine, but they just don’t talk about them. It’s an open secret of sorts."
“What kind of fucking person could go through something like this and not warn other people!” I yelled.

Later in the article he says:

"Lastly, it’s easy to make the work of Daniel Ingram and similar meditation teachers a scapegoat for this type of suffering, as his suggestion to meditate through the Dark Night had a catastrophic effect on me and is often cited by distressed meditators as a contributing factor to adverse effects. In fact, stopping meditation was crucial to my recovery. That being said, Ingram has provided a valuable service in describing in-depth the often bizarre and dangerous territory of intensive meditation, which has been whitewashed from our contemporary mindfulness culture."




Dan L. noticeably does not mention how MCTB is one of the few books that _does_ include warnings. 

For example, what about this passage in MCTB:
[
While I do generally wish to avoid biting the hands that have fed me, I must say that not telling practitioners about this territory from the beginning to give them a heads-up as to what might happen is so extremely irresponsible and negligent that I just want to spit and scream at those who perpetuate this warped culture of secrecy. While many teachers may not do so because they don’t think many people will ever get this far, that in and of itself is a scary assumption that should cause some serious questioning of their teaching methods, techniques, and perhaps even motivations.Imagine that there is a medication called Damnital that is used to treat some form of suffering (perhaps it’s a pain medicine or an antidepressant). However, in a subset of patients its long-term use is known to cause pronounced anxiety, paranoia, depression, apathy, micro-psychotic episodes, a pervasive sense of primal frustration, pronounced lack of perspective on relationships, reduced libido, feelings of dissatisfaction with worldly affairs, and exacerbation of personality disorders, all of which can lead to markedly reduced social and occupational functioning. Imagine that these side effects are known to persist sometimes months and even years after someone stops taking the medication, with occasional flare-ups and relapses, with the only effective treatment being to restart the meds, perhaps increase the dose, add supportive care and counseling, and hope that these side effects pass quickly with little damage.Now, imagine that you are living in the dark days of paternalistic medicine during which doctors prescribe these practices without fully disclosing the potential side effects despite being fully aware of them. Imagine that drug companies are not required to disclose known side effects. Does anything in this scenario make you even a bit uncomfortable? I should hope so!Let’s say for the sake of argument that I am a fanatic who is blowing this way out of proportion. Let’s assume that Damnital only causes these effects in one out of every ten thousand patients. Would you have these side effects included on the little piece of paper that comes in the bottle? Let’s say it’s one in a hundred? At what point does it become absurd that those doctors and drug companies are being allowed to get away with this? Unfortunately, I must admit that I do not know the exact odds of these side effects happening to you. I do know firsthand that they happen and that if you cross the A&P you are likely to run into at least some of them.These side effects are no fantasy. When they show up they are as real and powerful as if some dangerous drug had seriously skewed your neurochemistry, and I often wonder if that might be something like what happens. Thus, it seems only fair to have the same standards that we apply with such pronounced zeal and fervent litigation to drug companies and doctors also apply to meditation teachers and dharma books. For reasons unknown to me, this book is the first one I know of to spell out all of these things explicitly in language that everyone should be able to understand so that you can go into meditation having been fully informed of the risks and benefits and thus make informed decisions about your own practice. In the spirit of professionalism, I call on others who promote the dharma to immediately adopt a similarly high standard of open disclosure of risks, benefits, and alternatives for their own work.

My best guess is that Dan Lawson knows this, but it's not much of a story if he said "I really should not have selectively read MCTB and only listened to the parts that I wanted to be true. I'm a big dummy for doing so." I like those stories, they are honest, and, heck, we have all made mistakes.

It's also interesting to me that Dan Lawson's story really doesn't have an ending, no debrief on what was happening in his life during the phase that I quoted in the post above. He's still in the midst of figuring things out... It will be interesting to see what he has to say in the future. I still get the feeling that a big piece of this is either being overlooked or intentionally not being told. 
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 2057 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
It's literally the first section of the book - Foreword and Warning!!!

This should be seen as another warning: this book and the path presented in it are not for those who at this time find that they are unstable spiritual seekers. Meditation at the levels I am about to describe requires a baseline mental and material stability; and with respect to the latter, not necessarily wealth or even a 401(k), but ethically acquired requisites such as food and a safe, conducive shelter. You must have your psychological trip very together to be able to handle and integrate the intense techniques, side effects, and results I am about to discuss. In this book, I will explain in detail what is meant by “have your psychological trip very together”, with the key requisite skills being an ability to identify difficult mind states when they arise and handle them with kindness and aplomb. Luckily these are learnable skill sets.

There are plenty of gentle techniques and schools of practice available for people for whom it would be more skillful and constructive to apply those techniques. There are also many skillful healing modalities available today to help those who need to heal psychological trauma or clear up barriers to more intense practice. If you need those, you are highly encouraged to do that crucial work first. Many of the techniques and doses recommended in this book are for those who already have a solid platform of mental health and are willing to accept the risks inherent in intensive training.

Stated much more explicitly: people who do strong and intensive practice can hurt themselves and freak out. Just as serious athletes can hurt their bodies when they take a misstep or push themselves beyond their limits, just so serious mental athletes can strain their minds, brains, and nervous systems, and strained brains can sometimes function in very strange ways. To rewrite the operating system rapidly while it is running doesn’t always go so well in the short term or occasionally in the long term. Thus, while I will include nearly endless exhortations to find the depths of power and clarity that you are capable of, I will also add numerous warnings about how to keep from frying yourself.

By “frying yourself”, I mean explicitly severe mood instability and psychotic episodes, as well as other odd biological and energetic disturbances, with some practitioners occasionally ending up in inpatient psychiatric facilities for various periods of time.
Exactly how much of this is nature (their own “inherent wiring” and potential for mental pathology), how much of it is nurture (practicing hardcore meditation techniques in high doses such as those presented here), and how much is related to other unidentified factors is a question that is still being worked out, just so that you are not in any way uninformed about the still-developing state of modern science as it applies to the art of intensive meditation.

​​​​​​​Some who have read this book apparently have only noticed the former message, that being to find the depths of power and resolution you are capable of (a message put in to counterbalance a culture full of people who are underutilizing or not recognizing their inherent potential), and they missed the parts that discuss how and when to back off, a message found in numerous places in this book, much to their chicken-fried detriment. Hopefully putting this here right up front will again help people to hear both messages and find the balance between the two that works, as I am a firm believer in people being informed not only of the benefits but also of the risks so that they can make informed decisions and practice accordingly. You wouldn’t want to do power lifting without proper training, spotting, and technique, nor run marathons without lots of careful training, stretching, hydration, great nutrition, and the like: same with hardcore meditation practice. You also would be naive to imagine that you can push your body to its limits without risk: same with your brain and hardcore meditation practice.

I remember reading that and thinking 'whooaahh, I don't know if I have my shit together enough for this!' But it also gave me confidence that someone was willing to honestly say - here are the benefits, here are the risks, they are serious but manageable if you know what you are getting into and know what to look out for. There was a period of several weeks after I started using the book where I was just testing the water and trying to get a sense of whether or not it was safe to continue. As it was things got pretty hairy at times, but they could have been much worse had I not been lucky enough to start out using Daniel's book. Forewarned is forearmed! 
Georg S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 31 Join Date: 12/8/19 Recent Posts
I started creating a list of the warnings from MCTB2 as Daniel suggested. It's only a beginning, because all the quotes I put in the document are from the chapter "Foreword and warning". At the moment the warnings are ordered by the page number where they occur.

Maybe some of you are also willed to read e.g. one chapter of MCTB2 and scan it for warnings, etc. and put it in one file? That will throw up the question how this should be done/organized. I can, of course, scan some more of the chapters, but it's not possible for me to scan the whole book alone. 

Pepe also posted a link from the compilation of Daniel's posts on DHO and the infographic. I guess that (and a lot more from Daniel's DHO compilation) can be put in the document, but I think it's up to Daniel to decide that.

So, does anyone wanna help?

And sorry for my edgy English, as I'm not a native speaker.

Edit #1: 20.07.21
Chapter xxi, 1 and 17 are done. Document updated. 

Chapter 30: Linda is working on the dukkha nanas

Chapter 2-16; 18-29; 31-72 are not done yet.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Georg S
I started creating a list of the warnings from MCTB2 as Daniel suggested. It's only a beginning, because all the quotes I put in the document are from the chapter "Foreword and warning". At the moment the warnings are ordered by the page number where they occur.

Maybe some of you are also willed to read e.g. one chapter of MCTB2 and scan it for warnings, etc. and put it in one file? That will throw up the question how this should be done/organized. I can, of course, scan some more of the chapters, but it's not possible for me to scan the whole book alone. 

Pepe also posted a link from the compilation of Daniel's posts on DHO and the infographic. I guess that (and a lot more from Daniel's DHO compilation) can be put in the document, but I think it's up to Daniel to decide that.

So, does anyone wanna help?

And sorry for my edgy English, as I'm not a native speaker.

Edit #1: 20.07.21
Chapter xxi, 1 and 17 are done. Document updated. 

Chapter 30: Linda is working on the dukkha nanas

Chapter 2-16; 18-29; 31-72 are not done yet.


I will do the chapter on equanimity. The online version doesn't have page numbers so I will have to order the book.

​​​​​​​Edit. Or is there a pdf?
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
OK I added chapter 31.Look for the link below.
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Chapter 31, Equanimity
Page 240
In Equanimity, there is a settling in, a rediscovery of what we seemingly always knew but temporarily forgot. Equanimity can have a rough start, strangely enough, as well as some mildly painful and irritating sensations, but the meditator feels that some barrier has fnally broken, aweight has lifted, and practice can continue
Strangely, some may fnd the openness, ease, and spaciousness of Equanimity disconcerting, disorienting, or ungrounding, particularly if they have spent a lot of time being in signifcantly more contracted modes of being. This may cause some to then retreat into those more contracted modes, such as the Dark Night, as that sort of familiar discomfort may actually be more comfortable to them in some strange way than the ease and openness of Equanimity until they get used to it. Milan Kundera’s book title The Unbearable Lightness of Being sums up well this surprising but understandable phenomenon
Page 243
In the early part of Equanimity, reality may appear a bit “chunky” for a while, like some halfway point between the irritation of the late part of the Dark Night and the fowing, open phase that happens as Equanimity more fully develops. Practice in this early phase may seem quite possible but may seem to require steady but sustainable work. If we are tired, we may begin having dropouts and head-drops that are like what occurred in Dissolution but more extreme, sort of like when we start to have our head nod while driving when extremely tired (something I have done way too many times and strongly advise against).These head drops are among the things that people can mistake for Fruitions (described later), but Fruitions almost never involve the head dropping as these Equanimity head-drops do.
In this third subjhana phase of Equanimity (ñ11.j3), the broad, out-of-phase phase, it maybe hard to read and pay attention, hard to hear people and listen, hard to notice where we are and what we are doing. It can have some resemblance to Dissolution but is less slothful and more diffuse and spacious and makes people more prone to “spacing out”. The arising of fear of madness and death is not uncommon in this phase of Equanimity, but usually does not cause too much trouble and may even seem comical or welcome. For others, this mini Dark Night of Equanimity can make things complicated, and in the face of that seeming complexity somewill either try to power the thing (unlikely to work well in Equanimity), or try to solidify the pleasantness they may have experienced right before it and turn something open, fowing, and accepting into a more stable and safe-feeling fourth shamatha jhana, which is equanimous but still more frozen and static than works well for reaching stream entry. In this way, people can stagnate in Equanimity
We may get a sense that something strange and perhaps scary (namely, “reality” vanishing) is about to happen. A related and common feeling in the early part of this stage is the general sense that something big and exciting is about to happen, like kids on Christmas morningbefore they’ve opened their presents, like young couples on their frst date, though this feeling is also common before an A&P Event. These feelings are worthy of sensate investigation in abroad and inclusive way, just as with other sensations. It is common at these times to apply familiar practice tactics that worked in previous stages, such as going for very fne details about small phenomena as we did building up to the A&P, powering investigation, or noting fast aswe may have tried to do in Re-observation, or some other gamey strategy that we borrowed from an earlier part of the path. Few of these are likely to help and most will hinder, but many people will try them again and again until they learn this, and there is something to be said forlearning for ourselves by trial and error. As Mahasi Sayadaw says in Practical Insight Meditation,we may feel that the noticing and the objects are not close enough. We are not yet recognizing that the “objects” know themselves where they are and on their own naturally
Page 246
In MCTB1, this section caused considerable confusion and needless complexity: hopefully this version will clarify things. Vibrations in the higher part of Equanimity tend to be very different from how they were in earlier phases. In the A&P they tended to be fne, fast, of one clean frequency that tended to modulate its rate by the phase of the breath, and either localized in one small area or spread out across our skin and the like. In the Dark Night stages, vibrations start slower (the shamanic drum-like beat of Fear) and then later speed up, but in an edgy, irregular, irritating, complex way that is around the edges of attention. However, in Equanimity, particularly as it develops out past the “chunky” phase, vibrations tend to be slower, more fowing, more volumetric, more about waves of moving attention-space phenomena all together. Equanimity is more inclusive, almost like the graceful interpretativedance of attention and space creation itself. Many people don’t really notice much about the vibrations or fow and that is also okay. It is much more a question of fow, a shifting back andforth of attention like gentle waves on a beach, like tracking a falling leaf, like the easy settling of attention and phenomena into themselves on their own.
Page 251
Remember, it is not that we are trying to get rid of these subtle patterns that seemed to be themost “us”—they are just fne and they never were a self, never are, and never will be. The pointis to just perceive those sensations clearly, and the thing will fip over to another way of perceiving them in which they are just a part of all of this natural transience. Like so many categoriesof experience we gradually got used to in order to get to this point, these core processes learnto be seen automatically as they are by the simple repetition of gently bringing attention to thesensations that make them up, and fnally nothing is left that doesn’t automatically know thetruth of itself, including all the parts that were masquerading as a practitioner and a practice.These can be subtle, but in Equanimity we have the chops to do this, and they need not be blazingly strong or ultra-clear. No need to dissect them ruthlessly or catch every tiny detail ofthem: that sort of stuff worked well in the early stages, but Equanimity sacrifces a bit of that forthe bigger prize: wide-open, total, all-the-way-through understanding. Just an ordinary, simpleclarity, with the natural curiosity of a fascinated child, will do just fne at this phase of practice—a child who is willing to become wakefully absorbed in the daydream that is whatever the minddoes and wherever it goes.
Georg S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Hi Dietrich, 

thank you for your work. Do you use the online version of the book? If so, in the version I use (https://www.integrateddaniel.info/book), says that this is chapter 30, sub-chapter 11. Equanimity. 

You don't have to change that in  the Document. I will do that if i find time. I try to update the agenda at least twice a weak.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Georg S
Hi Dietrich, 

thank you for your work. Do you use the online version of the book? If so, in the version I use (https://www.integrateddaniel.info/book), says that this is chapter 30, sub-chapter 11. Equanimity. 

You don't have to change that in  the Document. I will do that if i find time. I try to update the agenda at least twice a weak.

I have added the inro to the progress of insight, and corrected the equinimity error.

Edit. Linda is working on it as well. Maybe her version won't be as sloppily done as mine was! emoticon emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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The first time I ever heard about Daniel and MCTB was through Michael Taft's podcast, and in one of those interviews they talked very thoroughly about the risks of meditation and how problematic the lack of informed consent is in many dharma contexts. Then I read the book, and it was FULL of warnings and nuances, basically everywhere. And yet there are so many people who assume some weird macho approach. I'm fed up with that, honestly. It's so unfair. One of my most stubborn reactive patterns nowadays is getting pissed off and getting defensive with regard to unfair accusations towards Daniel and MCTB. How hard can it be to just read, for crying out loud? Maybe it's too much to ask of people to keep more than one single thought in their mind? How sad! After all, we are talking about someone who has started a whole research consortium for the purpose of making these issues wellknown and finding better ways of dealing with them, and who also invests lots of unpaid time in supporting practicioners in need, and who has been critisized for talking too much about the darknight when others have claimed that the difficulties only appear due to already existing mental illness. Projections, projections, projections. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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"Daniel and MCTB. How hard can it be to just read, for crying out loud?"

emoticon Linda, it aint easy. When I got overwhelmed by DN "stuff" in 2011, I was loosing it , big time. This happened before I ever knew about Dark Nigh or Dukkha Nana etc ... then I did get a friend from Gotenburg who told me about some dude Ingram who had a book describing this stuff I was going through. I did read it, many times, throught the years this was the only book I would return to every so often, bring with me on our traveling etc ... but only in 2019 did I actually SEE him mentioning the word ACCEPTANCE (of all matter of fact experiences) so many fecking times emoticon and I was almost word-blind to it!!! emoticon Its same with people telling us stuff; we either hear it really or we skim over it as if we are deaf. We hear only what we are ready to hear. We see only what we are ready to see. But this too changes. Luckily emoticon 

I hope Daniel doesnt waste too much energy on defending MCTB. It needs no defending. Focus on those willing to practice and wish well for those who dont.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Papa Che Dusko
"Daniel and MCTB. How hard can it be to just read, for crying out loud?"

emoticon Linda, it aint easy. When I got overwhelmed by DN "stuff" in 2011, I was loosing it , big time. This happened before I ever knew about Dark Nigh or Dukkha Nana etc ... then I did get a friend from Gotenburg who told me about some dude Ingram who had a book describing this stuff I was going through. I did read it, many times, throught the years this was the only book I would return to every so often, bring with me on our traveling etc ... but only in 2019 did I actually SEE him mentioning the word ACCEPTANCE (of all matter of fact experiences) so many fecking times emoticon and I was almost word-blind to it!!! emoticon Its same with people telling us stuff; we either hear it really or we skim over it as if we are deaf. We hear only what we are ready to hear. We see only what we are ready to see. But this too changes. Luckily emoticon 

I hope Daniel doesnt waste too much energy on defending MCTB. It needs no defending. Focus on those willing to practice and wish well for those who dont.


I agree. I ran away from a monastery twice, thinking I was going to be homeless and practice dharma. It end up landing me in a hospital. Edit. The homeless part wasn't too far off, although practicing dharma has been the thing that has got me too many times. All it takes is reading about something to get me excited and absorb. Homelessness is the one thing that doesn't land itself in books. Edit 2x. Homelessness is very different than what Daniel teaches due to the fact that homelessness requires that you not have made any resolutions. So there. So Daniel is not preaching homelessness.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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A. Dietrich Ringle, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. First of all, sorry about that experience. Sounds tough. 

A. Dietrich Ringle:

I agree. I ran away from a monastery twice, thinking I was going to be homeless and practice dharma. It end up landing me in a hospital. Edit. The homeless part wasn't too far off, although practicing dharma has been the thing that has got me too many times. All it takes is reading about something to get me excited and absorb. Homelessness is the one thing that doesn't land itself in books. Edit 2x. Homelessness is very different than what Daniel teaches due to the fact that homelessness requires that you not have made any resolutions. So there. So Daniel is not preaching homelessness.

Did reading something make you want to be a homeless practicioner? What did you read? And why did you run away from the monestary to practice? Couldn’t you practice there? I’m sorry, I’m not quite following you.

I recall having seen warnings in MCTB2 both about leaving everything for a monestary in some phase of the practice, and about leaving the monestary in some other phase, because we tend to make premature decisions based on emotional side effects if we don’t see them for what they are.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
A. Dietrich Ringle, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. First of all, sorry about that experience. Sounds tough. 

It was tough. I still mentally check back in with the monks and nuns and Deer Park Monastery. I wonder how they are doing.
A. Dietrich Ringle
I agree. I ran away from a monastery twice, thinking I was going to be homeless and practice dharma. It end up landing me in a hospital. Edit. The homeless part wasn't too far off, although practicing dharma has been the thing that has got me too many times. All it takes is reading about something to get me excited and absorb. Homelessness is the one thing that doesn't land itself in books. Edit 2x. Homelessness is very different than what Daniel teaches due to the fact that homelessness requires that you not have made any resolutions. So there. So Daniel is not preaching homelessness.

Did reading something make you want to be a homeless practicioner? What did you read? And why did you run away from the monestary to practice? Couldn’t you practice there? I’m sorry, I’m not quite following you.
I was practicing several traditions at once, and was very confused. I wanted to be a monastic but I was also still emotionally trying to use MCTB to get away from my then current girlfriend. Talk about an agenda!

I recall having seen warnings in MCTB2 both about leaving everything for a monestary in some phase of the practice, and about leaving the monestary in some other phase, because we tend to make premature decisions based on emotional side effects if we don’t see them for what they are.
I still hear the voice in my head saying renounce. To what that is directed to is still difficult to descipher sometimes. I just got off some of my antipsychotics though!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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A. Dietrich Ringle
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
A. Dietrich Ringle, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. First of all, sorry about that experience. Sounds tough. 

It was tough. I still mentally check back in with the monks and nuns and Deer Park Monastery. I wonder how they are doing.
A. Dietrich Ringle
I agree. I ran away from a monastery twice, thinking I was going to be homeless and practice dharma. It end up landing me in a hospital. Edit. The homeless part wasn't too far off, although practicing dharma has been the thing that has got me too many times. All it takes is reading about something to get me excited and absorb. Homelessness is the one thing that doesn't land itself in books. Edit 2x. Homelessness is very different than what Daniel teaches due to the fact that homelessness requires that you not have made any resolutions. So there. So Daniel is not preaching homelessness.

Did reading something make you want to be a homeless practicioner? What did you read? And why did you run away from the monestary to practice? Couldn’t you practice there? I’m sorry, I’m not quite following you.
I was practicing several traditions at once, and was very confused. I wanted to be a monastic but I was also still emotionally trying to use MCTB to get away from my then current girlfriend. Talk about an agenda!

I recall having seen warnings in MCTB2 both about leaving everything for a monestary in some phase of the practice, and about leaving the monestary in some other phase, because we tend to make premature decisions based on emotional side effects if we don’t see them for what they are.
I still hear the voice in my head saying renounce. To what that is directed to is still difficult to descipher sometimes. I just got off some of my antipsychotics though!


Wow! Thanks for sharing your experiences! I hope you have sufficient support in getting off those medz. It can certainly be hard enough to see through loud thoughts even without having to deal with psychosis. All the best wishes for your wellbeing!

I did say that it was a stubborn reactive pattern for me to get pissed off and defensive in this context. I am aware of it. I probably shouldn’t have posted my rant.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Papa Che Dusko

emoticon Linda, it aint easy. When I got overwhelmed by DN "stuff" in 2011, I was loosing it , big time. This happened before I ever knew about Dark Nigh or Dukkha Nana etc ... then I did get a friend from Gotenburg who told me about some dude Ingram who had a book describing this stuff I was going through. I did read it, many times, throught the years this was the only book I would return to every so often, bring with me on our traveling etc ... but only in 2019 did I actually SEE him mentioning the word ACCEPTANCE (of all matter of fact experiences) so many fecking times emoticon and I was almost word-blind to it!!! emoticon Its same with people telling us stuff; we either hear it really or we skim over it as if we are deaf. We hear only what we are ready to hear. We see only what we are ready to see. But this too changes. Luckily emoticon 

But you didn’t go about making accusations, did you? It’s one thing to miss aspects - very human, I agree - but quite another to blame it on others and badmouth them and their hard work.


I hope Daniel doesnt waste too much energy on defending MCTB. It needs no defending. Focus on those willing to practice and wish well for those who dont.

Now THIS is wise!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Actually emoticon I did make accusations... not about MCTB but about Shamatha Calm-abiding. I felt being promised the end of suffering if I practice it diligently and practice I did. However one day all those lovely states crashed and I could not see anything else but utter misery. 

Of course emoticon what else to do in that panic, as I could not get my absorption states back but blame it on the practice emoticon I believed those absorptions to be freedom from suffering. 

As I said, it ain't easy, ignorance is. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Papa Che Dusko
Actually emoticon I did make accusations... not about MCTB but about Shamatha Calm-abiding. I felt being promised the end of suffering if I practice it diligently and practice I did. However one day all those lovely states crashed and I could not see anything else but utter misery. 

Of course emoticon what else to do in that panic, as I could not get my absorption states back but blame it on the practice emoticon I believed those absorptions to be freedom from suffering. 

As I said, it ain't easy, ignorance is. 


Okay! Thanks for your honest sharing! I stand corrected.
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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I enjoy the honest stories! emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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I'll go through chapter 30, about the dukkha nanas. 

​​​​​​​Edit: not just the dukkha nanas, but the whole chapter.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
I'll go through chapter 30, about the dukkha nanas. 

​​​​​​​Edit: not just the dukkha nanas, but the whole chapter.

I'm sorry. I already started on the equanimity sub-chapter. Do you want me to do the whole chapter?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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I started from the beginning of capter 30 and I'm now working on the dissolution chapter. It's great that you started on equanimity. Then I'll stop when I'm done with reobservation. Awesome!
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
I started from the beginning of capter 30 and I'm now working on the dissolution chapter. It's great that you started on equanimity. Then I'll stop when I'm done with reobservation. Awesome!

As Dharma practice is one of many things I think about, it might be beneficial if you read over what I did. I think it reads well though. emoticon emoticon
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Griffin, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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He obviously just skimmed over MCTB, and hyper-focused on bits that fitted into his inclinations at that time. That's very unfair to Daniel, just like that Vice article a couple of years ago. I don't think it's an active agenda though (let us not be carried away by our paranoid tendencies emoticon )

One more thing: imagine an article that describes in detail an agonizing state of someone who just endured a horrible car accident. What kind of message should be sent by that kind of testimony: "we shouldn't drive", or - we need to drive more carefully and systemically foster safer environment for driving (better roads, anti-drinking campaings, better laws, more road-safety education in schools etc.)? Unfortunately, when it comes to meditation, most non-meditators are just going to say "this is some disturbing stuff, good to know, now I won't touch this meditation-buddhism thing with a ten foot pole!"
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Love the car analogy emoticon Totally agree! 

About non meditators getting scared away ... well emoticon there is so much shit written and documented about Scientology and yet Seekers (non-meditators) still get into it emoticon I hope you agree. 

Seekers will seek and some who have a romantic notion of a possibility of Dark Night as path and the Stream Entry as reword, will still be drawn to Mahasi Noting / MCTB 

But these DN and SE seem not to be exclusive to Mahasi Vipassana. 

However I do agree with having some tech ready for rough situations and people ready and willing to support individuals in need of help. 

All this being said I do not believe that my DN crash could have been any other than what it was emoticon with or without help. However MCTB was pointed towards me and through that I also found my teacher (in 2019) Kenneth Folk. 

So it's all good. You can only help those who are able to lend their ears to the Dhamma anyway. (Which they might in the future). 
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Griffin, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Yes, seekers are gonna seek, but I would bet that there are at least 100 milion people in the world who are potentials seekers but are scared away (or more probably, simply uninformed) emoticon<br /><br /> 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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And a whole lot of people who think they are still seekers while escaping all the real seeking. It's "safer" to turn it into some fluffy identity and/or some nice soothing little thing that one can do than to challenge the whole notion of identity. 
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Griffin, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Yup, most seekers are spiritual bypassers. 

The whole spiritual scene is a mess... no wonder most people are misguided
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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This makes me wonder what I'm bypassing, what I might be escaping from seeing. How does one even intend to see beyond what one wishes to see? Maybe by intending to be prepared for more? 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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How to see beyond? emoticon 

By looking at This Right Now. As long there is consciousness. 

As shargrol say "what's going on Here?" 

However I'm likely misguided also so don't listen to me! emoticon 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Didn't you just argue that it was all too easy to miss parts of what was going on? 

But sure, intending to see what is going on is a good one. I think I was trying to say that the problem is that while one consciously intends to see what is going on, there are probably lots of subconscious processes that intend to escape from stuff. Those need to get on board too. 

Heh, I think we changed positions with each other in this discussion. emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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"there are probably lots of subconscious processes that intend to escape from stuff. Those need to get on board too. "

Chasing waterfalls with that "probably lots of this or that there to be found"
emoticon There is only This in whatever shape or form emoticon 

But yes, Demon Mara is the Grand Motherfucker so one can never be totally certain of stuff emoticon emoticon emoticon 

I'm a grand dummy emoticon 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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So how do you explain your own selective reading of MCTB2 that you shared about earlier in the thread?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Ignorance. As in "Father forgive them as they know not what they are doing!"

BTW​​​​​​, ​I only read the MCTB1. 

I like the way Adyashanti explains it. Something like;
we all have this Dancer in us and that dancer loves to dance. It likes this and that dance and trying new dances and is trying to impress or avoid with those dances etc ... 
We practice so to make this Dancer utterly exhausted, so it gives up on dancing.

I also like the way KF talks about Density. Some of us are very dense and simple wise words are impossible to be of our benefit. So we practice and go through paths, with each the density is being lesser and lesser, until This can be seen and those wise words can then be heard. 

I'm not sure this answers your question but that's as far as I go with this topic emoticon My dancer is exhausted now emoticon 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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Fine with me. emoticon Let your dancer rest!

I suspect we are in agreement. I see no conflict between our different phrasings. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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emoticon Did some hard working in the field today weeding so energy is low. 

However I could add that this Dancer is not for me a "one timer" but rather like an Onion. Each layer is a Dancer that needs to get exhausted and just let go of dancing. Not sure how many layers this Onion has emoticon emoticon Infinite? Finite? Only This layer? 

​​​​​​​Dunno. Off me goes to make some dinner now emoticon 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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I feel like I have multiple dancers and they all have their different sets of layers. But I suspect that the layer metaphor can be very limiting in its linearity. That's why I prefer to think of it as entanglements, which probably has its own traps but feels more true to my experience. Right now I'm experimenting with just fully embodying one mode at a time to see what that opens up. So far it seems surprisingly possible. It comes with motion sickness, though, lol. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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"It comes with motion sickness, though"

Yeps! That exactly describes my experience today (and for a while now) while walking in the forest. 

No wonder really as so much is swirling about. I assume there is less (or none) motion sickness once the sense of "I" let's go totally of This. Or maybe it's like reading a book while in the buss. I get motion sickness if staring at my phone/book in the buss or car. There is inertia happening and yet the mind is cought in a story instead of being with the body sensations as well. If I'm not driving the car I easily get motion sick (sense of not being in control?) 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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I don't know. I think we are still limited by having this mammalian body, and if we shift rapidly between entirely different modes of peceiving our reality, the nervous system has to deal with that. Different chemical cocktails, different traffic rules. It's probably somewhat comparable to changing between different medicines (or drugs for that matter, perhaps, I don't know). If you do it often enough, the brain and nervous system can learn to adapt and you can do the changes faster, but it's still stressful for the system. 
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: When Buddhism Goes Wrong

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There is a .pdf version in the links on mctb.org for page numbers. Thanks!

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