Insight leading to emergence (vutthana-gamini-nana)

Eudoxos , modified 10 Months ago at 7/19/21 4:03 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 7/19/21 4:03 AM

Insight leading to emergence (vutthana-gamini-nana)

Posts: 103 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
Mahasi Sayadaw in Progress of Insight has a stage between Equanimity (sankharupekkha-ñana) and Adaptation/Conformity (anuloma-ñana) called "Insight leading to emergence" (vutthāna-gāminī-ñana). This stage seems to be an addition to Visudhimagga, and Daniel also does not mention it in MCTB(2).

My primary practice is Ajahn Tong tradition, who was a disciple of Mahasi himself and also of Ajahn Jodok Nyanasiddhi (also Phra Theerarach Mahamuni) of Wat Mahathat, considered to know all ins and outs of the various insight stages. In the Ajahn Tong tradition, the progress of the first ("basic") course is that after reaching equanimity, the yogi is given 3 determination exercises (details in various posts here or around the internet). The 2nd and 3rd exercises are directed to fruitions (magga/phala-ñana) and "extended fruitions" (phala-samapatti) respectively, a formal way of resolving to experience the fruition with a pre-determined duration, as Mahasi also describes in his texts.

Now, the 1st determination exercise is a wish that gross perception of the 3c ceases and fine understanding of the 3c arises. Note that this exercise follows high equanimity and is only given in the very first course (and not in subsequent retreats, just like the first 3 stages of insight are "done" and not repeated, as the mind starts in A&P). This stage has quite unique and remarkable symptomatics, lasting usually a few hours, coming with different intensity for different yogis: quickly changing states of strong pain, severe confusion, losing balance (like drunk), nausea/vomiting, all that beyond control. Something like very bad trip back to patisankha squared.

I could not find this anywhere on the maps, which is surprising, given how strictly Ajahn Tong and Ajahn Jodok follow the stages otherwise. I thought then this was just some slip back to patisankha, which occurs with regularity for some unknown reason. Until I hit this quote (source — the author, Ajahn Thawee; he must be a disciple of Ajahn Jodok judging by the way he describes the practice, but this is just my guess, I don't know more about him):
When the practice has been done and strange things happen in vutthāna-gāminī vipassanā, or whether one has already regained sankhārupekkhā-ñāna or not but almost reached it, one may forget likewise. But the meditator must not decide that it is forgetting because of magga-phala.
The "strange things happen" might be a decent hint of the symtomatics above; if "insight leading to emergence" were just 3 mind-moments (as Mahasi describes it in the Progress of Insight), one would not call is strange things happen? But maybe I am just off.

Are we missing this in the "standard" map?
shargrol, modified 10 Months ago at 7/19/21 5:53 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 7/19/21 5:42 AM

RE: Insight leading to emergence (vutthana-gamini-nana)

Posts: 1744 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
perhaps it is what is covered in Daniel's discussion of Three Doors?:

hope this helps in your search. if you find something different in the literature, I'd be very interested in hearing what you found.
Eudoxos , modified 10 Months ago at 7/19/21 9:12 AM
Created 10 Months ago at 7/19/21 9:12 AM

RE: Insight leading to emergence (vutthana-gamini-nana)

Posts: 103 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
Three doors is about the moments immediately preceding cessation, this is more about "macroscopic" experience; so not sure if vutthana-gamini-ñana relates to the 3 doors (except of the 3c, obviously).

Dhammawiki has Vutthana-gamini-vipassana page where it is defined simply as {desire for deliverance, reobservation, equanimity}; this is not consistent with Mahasi, though the quote above makes sense then: there can be strange things happening in n9-n11 and losing consciousness ("forgetting") is common especially in n9 (desire for deliverance) according to numerous sources.

I will later look into "Path to Nibbana" by Jodok/Chodok (not available online, and not in my physical proximity ATM) to find more details.

Historical note: this German Version "Selber Klarblick üben" (Practicing insight on your own) by Ajahn Thawee has a short biography at the end (which mentions Mahasi and perhaps other exponents of his method in Thailand); it is the translation of Practicing Insight on your own (which itself was translated from Thai, presumably), being the source of the quote in the first post.