Love

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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 10/8/11 10:28 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/8/11 9:41 PM

Love

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Vineeto:
Love is merely a human invention to cover the embarrassment of being animal at one’s very core. - corr-sex

Courtship in many contemporary societies (aka "dating") demand that one cover up one's animal instincts and present a presentable self. The zenith of this social identity based madness lies at all those romantic fairly tales. "Romance" - as opposed to lust - is nothing more than an ignorant veneer by the man to ensure that she remains faithful, and is nothing more than a deluded facade by the woman to proclaim her imagined fidelity.

In the company of certain women, feelings of possessiveness well up in the disguise of romantic love (in reality, "I" am looking to possess a female who will faithfully raise my children). In the company of certain other women, feelings of lust well up in their most raw form (in reality, "I" am merely seeking opportunities to fool other men into raising my children). And since this almost never gets satisfied, sexual frustration is the result (self pity, being a nice guy, being a SNAG, etc. are all coverup for that frustration).

Love is a coverup for the relentless power battle being waged by the genders.

And marriage? Don't even get me started!
Matt L, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 3:57 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 3:57 AM

RE: Love

Posts: 41 Join Date: 11/4/10 Recent Posts
Having come to these conclusions, are you more freely able to relate to your fellow female human beings from a position of equality rather than with resentment/frustration/demands muddying the interaction? That is to say, are you less inclined to see women as an object of 'your' and 'their' needs competing (and the resulting push/pull feelings) and more inclined to see women as your equal/fellow (and the potential sense of magic that that entails)?

Are your interactions now more peaceful/enjoyable/equitable as a result of your realisations?
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Dauphin Supple Chirp, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 10:48 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 10:47 AM

RE: Love

Posts: 154 Join Date: 3/15/11 Recent Posts
One thing that helps put this into perspective on an intellectual level is to keep in mind that it is not "you" trying to have other men raise "your" children etc, but technically it is the genes inside you that have created you as a tool to maximize their own reproductive success. Happiness cannot come from succeeding by "you procreating" or "you fooling others into raising your children" etc. simply because "you" have no true interest in any of that. The only thing "you" are really after is the reward (a pleasant feeling) the genes have programmed into you for doing what serves them.

You want to copulate with those women because you are trying to generate pleasant feelings such as orgasm, satisfaction, etc, not because you want your children to be successful or anything abstract like that. Your genes "want" your children to be successful, because that is how they "gain points" in the game of life, so they shape and program you in such a way that tends to benefit them, not you!

A simile would be this: You want your employer to be successful, but your employer is just a heartless corporation. Why do you want your employer to be successful? Only because you have been (willingly or unwillingly or both) programmed to think that way. You keep acting and thinking this way because that's what maximizes your reward, which consists of the money you get paid, not of the abstract concept of making the company successful. There are, of course quite a few exceptions to this generalization, and if you can honestly say that you would not quit if you won a trillion dollars today, then you are one of the exceptions. But I think it still gets the point across.
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 11:29 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 11:24 AM

RE: Love

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Good questions.

Matt Lowrey:
Having come to these conclusions, are you more freely able to relate to your fellow female human beings from a position of equality rather than with resentment/frustration/demands muddying the interaction?


Not much.

Matt Lowrey:
That is to say, are you less inclined to see women as an object of 'your' and 'their' needs competing (and the resulting push/pull feelings) and more inclined to see women as your equal/fellow (and the potential sense of magic that that entails)?


No. The reason is quite simple: women exude softness and love in interactions, particularly with men. "I" see this 99% of the time. This softness/love makes "me" euphoric, and further makes "me" desire it even more (which is the reason why men act humorous in front of women ... to get as much of their attention as possible).

Several times in my life, I tried to interact with women as fellow human beings. They have all failed.

Matt Lowrey:
Are your interactions now more peaceful/enjoyable/equitable as a result of your realisations?


No. At this stage, I'm struck at sexual frustration (SF). That is the result of having substantially eliminated its coverups - self-pity, being a nice guy, etc. I can see that SF has a clear down-side, but it is also mixed with that euphoric feeling.

I definitely hope to be able to interact freely with men and women alike.

PS. I do not buy this "objectification" non-sense. Women are as much "objects" to be wanted as men are "status objects" to be convinced to provide for.

PPS. I have interacted with only one (middle-aged) lesbian so far, and she is the only woman (among the not so attractive heterosexual women) with whom I was able to interact freely.
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 11:39 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 11:37 AM

RE: Love

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Dauphin Supple Chirp:
One thing that helps put this into perspective on an intellectual level is to keep in mind that it is not "you" trying to have other men raise "your" children etc, but technically it is the genes inside you that have created you as a tool to maximize their own reproductive success. Happiness cannot come from succeeding by "you procreating" or "you fooling others into raising your children" etc. simply because "you" have no true interest in any of that. The only thing "you" are really after is the reward (a pleasant feeling) the genes have programmed into you for doing what serves them.


Sure, genes encode feelings. And feelings - not the gene-strategies - is what we consciously perceive.

Dauphin Supple Chirp:
You want to copulate with those women because you are trying to generate pleasant feelings such as orgasm, satisfaction, etc, not because you want your children to be successful or anything abstract like that. Your genes "want" your children to be successful, because that is how they "gain points" in the game of life, so they shape and program you in such a way that tends to benefit them, not you!


It is not merely about "orgasm, satisfaction", but also about finding a partner who will more likely remain faithful. Hence, the invention of romantic love, marriage, etc. It is somewhat amusing that, even though I never had a relationship, I am still capable of feeling jealousy and rage when this potential mate/crush "sees" other men, or if she is "inclined to" - i.e., of that personality to - interact with more random men. And so women are pressured to "be virtuous" and what not. I have come to a point that if I have a relationship at all, I will hold no expectations for it to be monogamous because jealousy hurts (Richard recalled finding out that his wife has been cheating on him, and "congratulating" her on her courage or something).
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Dauphin Supple Chirp, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 2:25 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 2:25 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 154 Join Date: 3/15/11 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:
I have come to a point that if I have a relationship at all, I will hold no expectations for it to be monogamous because jealousy hurts (Richard recalled finding out that his wife has been cheating on him, and "congratulating" her on her courage or something).


Excellent point! I think it is wise and useful to realize that it's not your responsibility to make sure your partner doesn't cheat on you or to get angry if she does.
This Good Self, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 6:55 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 6:55 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:
Vineeto:
Love is merely a human invention to cover the embarrassment of being animal at one’s very core. - corr-sex

Courtship in many contemporary societies (aka "dating") demand that one cover up one's animal instincts and present a presentable self. The zenith of this social identity based madness lies at all those romantic fairly tales. "Romance" - as opposed to lust - is nothing more than an ignorant veneer by the man to ensure that she remains faithful, and is nothing more than a deluded facade by the woman to proclaim her imagined fidelity.

In the company of certain women, feelings of possessiveness well up in the disguise of romantic love (in reality, "I" am looking to possess a female who will faithfully raise my children). In the company of certain other women, feelings of lust well up in their most raw form (in reality, "I" am merely seeking opportunities to fool other men into raising my children). And since this almost never gets satisfied, sexual frustration is the result (self pity, being a nice guy, being a SNAG, etc. are all coverup for that frustration).

Love is a coverup for the relentless power battle being waged by the genders.

And marriage? Don't even get me started!


I view love as a exchange of psychic energy. It happens as two egos agree to exchange this energy, simply because it feels good. Of course it's more reliable to be able to access Universal energy, but that comes in degrees as you relinquish self control.

The less ego-identified you are, the easier the process of attraction and romance. If you are strongly ego-identified, attracting a female much harder, no matter what you look like or the size of your bank balance. Sex will be the only thing on your mind and women smell that a mile off, and they steer well clear. You then start to rationalize "why?", and in your post, there's a whole range of beliefs that you've adopted to explain why. Why is this not working?

If you stop trying to be something that you're not, then all you can be is your real self, which is always attractive (to men and women). Striving to be 'better' or 'more' all the time is what your ego is doing to you, ruining your chances for love. Worse still, your adopted beliefs have reasoned away any chance of remdying this situation.

Short of enlightenment, love is the only thing worth working for. It will smooth out your constant cravings for sex into something smoother and more satisfying.
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 7:07 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 7:07 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
What are these "adopted beliefs," and what are the facts (according to you)? It is a fact that men and women have different instinctual motives (as explained above) when it comes to fucking.
This Good Self, modified 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 7:24 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/9/11 7:23 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
The first paragraph of your post has a lot of statements that I don't agree with, meaning that I don't see that same reality you're describing. So to me they look like beliefs, which are all flexible/changeable anyway; why not adopt behaviours that reinforce positive beliefs? I don't know that there are any 'facts', according to me or anyone else. Just beliefs, which come from experiences.

I also don't believe men and women have different motives. I think they simply do it because it feels good, just as love feels good.

Any time you are making an effort to impress, you're reinforcing the belief that without hard work, no woman would want you. Any time you let go of striving, you reinforce a belief that no striving is necessary, and that's attractive.
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Simon T, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 5:01 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 5:01 AM

RE: Love

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
One of the reason people struggle so much with their relationship is that they are dishonest from the beginning. They project a false image of themselves. That's missing the point of a relationship. The secret of a great relationship is interdependence, mutual understanding and non-attachment. By dependence, I mean a recognition that the other greatly improve your life, hence you attribute great value to that person. Being thankful of that, you will want great things for that person too.

Non-attachment means a recognition that even if the person is a great source of happiness, worrying about loosing him or her is of no use and only get in the way of your happiness. When I'm having great time with my girlfriend, I purposely pay attention to the subtle "insatisfaction" left in my mind. Inside of us, we are always aware of the impermanence of things and that make us worry. Letting go of this is essential (but fucking hard).

Being truly understood and accepted by someone the way we are is a great remedy against loneliness, if not the greatest. You get to accept yourself much more easily and expose yourself to the world with greater confidence.

The independence mentality of modern society is bound to create failed relationship.

Whatever we say about enlightenment, love is awesome, no matter how impermanent it is.
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 9:31 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 9:31 AM

RE: Love

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Simon T.:
One of the reason people struggle so much with their relationship is that they are dishonest from the beginning. They project a false image of themselves. That's missing the point of a relationship. The secret of a great relationship is interdependence, mutual understanding and non-attachment. By dependence, I mean a recognition that the other greatly improve your life, hence you attribute great value to that person. Being thankful of that, you will want great things for that person too


I believe that if you drop all the images, and strip yourself naked (metaphorically speaking, of course) in front of a potential partner - in other words, when you "be yourself" - there is only a thin chance that the relationship will continue from then on. This is especially true in the beginning stages of a relationship.

Simon T.:
Non-attachment means a recognition that even if the person is a great source of happiness, worrying about loosing him or her is of no use and only get in the way of your happiness. When I'm having great time with my girlfriend, I purposely pay attention to the subtle "insatisfaction" left in my mind. Inside of us, we are always aware of the impermanence of things and that make us worry. Letting go of this is essential (but fucking hard).


Jealousy? Isn't that the fear of invalidating the illusory fidelity-image (based on the gene-strategy of reliably raising one's - and one's own - offspring) that we construct of our partners? I recently thought of a thought-experiment: when/if I get a partner, imagine her falling in love with other men (furtively or not), and see how "I" react to it - each and every day. Call this "jealousy-check".

The other fear could be the fear of losing her love. The whole charade of attempting to "impress" the other person is based on this fear, which in turn is fear of living alone.

Simon T.:
Being truly understood and accepted by someone the way we are is a great remedy against loneliness, if not the greatest. You get to accept yourself much more easily and expose yourself to the world with greater confidence.


Yes, it is a remarkable cure (if only temporary) for insecurity. I've experienced this several times.

Simon T.:
The independence mentality of modern society is bound to create failed relationship.


Methinks it is more of an "independent, but repressed within" mentality.

Simon T.:
Whatever we say about enlightenment, love is awesome, no matter how impermanent it is.


"awesome" is but an euphemism for "euphoric". The later gets more of one's identity than the former. :-)
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Simon T, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 11:56 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 11:56 AM

RE: Love

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
In response to Harry Potter:

I did open myself totally to the women I met in the last year and it's the best advice I can give. It's important to avoid self-pity. You are just open about your flaws. You show your self as human and imperfect. By showing that you are willing to show yourself as you are, you show confidence. You also show receptiveness to their own imperfections. The kind of girl that will run away are the kind that should be avoided anyway. A word of warning: you have to be diligent when doing so. It can give you a sort of guru-like quality. You end up acting a bit like a teacher in the relationship since few people open so easily (but most dream of doing so). I don't know how it would work in reverse (a woman opening herself to a man not so ready to do so. My guess is that comprehension and sensibility are qualities with universal power of seduction).

"independent but repressed within" is a nice clarification. People have the desire of independence but rare are does that can mentally afford it. People buy into the image of independence propagated by the modern culture, ignoring that it goes against their nature.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 1:29 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 1:29 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:

Several times in my life, I tried to interact with women as fellow human beings. They have all failed.


This is an interesting comment. Women are human beings. How is it that you have failed to interact with women as what they already are?
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:14 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:14 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Simon T.:
Harry:
Simon T.:
One of the reason people struggle so much with their relationship is that they are dishonest from the beginning. They project a false image of themselves.
I believe that if you drop all the images, and strip yourself naked (metaphorically speaking, of course) in front of a potential partner - in other words, when you "be yourself" - there is only a thin chance that the relationship will continue from then on. This is especially true in the beginning stages of a relationship.

I did open myself totally to the women I met in the last year and it's the best advice I can give. It's important to avoid self-pity. You are just open about your flaws.


And why is self-pity not a flaw to be open about?

If I understand you correctly, your advice is to be "reservedly open" (not totally open) ensuring that the identity's qualities[1], that ruthlessly make one unattractive to the opposite sex, remain hidden from another's purview.

Simon T.:
By showing that you are willing to show yourself as you are, you show confidence. [...] It can give you a sort of guru-like quality. [...] My guess is that comprehension and sensibility are qualities with universal power of seduction).


Often in my practice, out of serendipity my experience would shift toward the area of feeling very confident about myself (to the point of not being afraid of others) and curiously this would instinctually lead to fantasizing about "being good" with women (and their groups). I see that this is the origin of charisma that is so valued in the love-web of men and women. One aspect of my intent is to not fall for that fantasizing tendency anymore, and instead let the newfound confidence mature into naivete; it is somewhat similar in ilk to Richard's warning against choosing narcissistic spiritual entanglements[2], but applied specifically for everyday love[3].

Simon T.:
"independent but repressed within" is a nice clarification. People have the desire of independence but rare are does that can mentally afford it. People buy into the image of independence propagated by the modern culture, ignoring that it goes against their nature.


Ok, here's a question: should an actualist necessarily cultivate skills such as being "reservedly open" and navigating charisma-inducing feelings in order to project an image (to the opposite sex) to ensure a steady supply of loving experiences, or totally renounce them for their dark-side and instead focus on simple, sensuous kind of experiences? Given the "down side" of these feelings, I'm inclined to do the later (I have persistently failed to achieve the former, anyway).

#

[1] Peter: But in fact, whenever I was really in the pits or emotionally needy, a curious thing happened: the woman would lose respect for me or regard me as a wimp.

[2] Richard: Deeply buried in the psyche, there lies an intuitive mechanism which accepts what the heart perceives as beautiful and loving experiences and rejects those experiences which are perceived as ugly and hateful. This mechanism gives rise to those states of being which one is alert to avoid ... states like rapture, euphoria, ecstasy and bliss. One chooses to avoid narcissistic spiritual entanglements, not because they are diabolical in the normal sense of the word, but because they keep malice and sorrow subliminally alive; because they take the mind over and capture the attention completely; because they keep going round and round in atavistic circles of calenture; and because they seal one off from this living actuality.

[3] I can easily rewrite the above as: Deeply buried in the psyche, there lies an intuitive mechanism which accepts what the heart perceives as beautiful and loving experiences and rejects those experiences which are perceived as ugly and hateful. This mechanism gives rise to those states of being which one is alert to avoid ... states like rapture, euphoria, ecstasy and bliss. One chooses to avoid narcissistic loving experiences, not because they are diabolical in the normal sense of the word, but because they keep malice and sorrow subliminally alive; because they take the mind over and capture the attention completely; because they keep going round and round in atavistic circles of calenture; and because they seal one off from this living actuality.
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Harry Potter, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:24 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:22 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 84 Join Date: 5/20/11 Recent Posts
Daniel Johnson:
Harry Potter:

Several times in my life, I tried to interact with women as fellow human beings. They have all failed.

This is an interesting comment. Women are human beings. How is it that you have failed to interact with women as what they already are?


The sexual/romantic feelings that appears on contact with reasonably good-looking young women inevitably ensures that friendly feelings (as purely experienced with other men) never get to be experienced. Growing up, we learn to repress the former and cultivate attitudes, values and behaviours to express - if not genuinely feel - the later with the other sex.

I am reasonably comfortable in interacting with such women, even if they are minimal. But deep within, I know that my interactions are not as friendly, carefree as they are with some of my closest friends (all of them being men).

This is something anyone can observe. Have you ever noticed how a man and a woman seem to hold something back in their supposedly friendly interactions? Have you noticed why women flock toward the homosexual males?
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James Yen, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:57 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:57 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 270 Join Date: 9/6/09 Recent Posts
Simon T.:
In response to Harry Potter:

I did open myself totally to the women I met in the last year and it's the best advice I can give. It's important to avoid self-pity. You are just open about your flaws. You show your self as human and imperfect. By showing that you are willing to show yourself as you are, you show confidence. You also show receptiveness to their own imperfections. The kind of girl that will run away are the kind that should be avoided anyway. A word of warning: you have to be diligent when doing so. It can give you a sort of guru-like quality. You end up acting a bit like a teacher in the relationship since few people open so easily (but most dream of doing so). I don't know how it would work in reverse (a woman opening herself to a man not so ready to do so. My guess is that comprehension and sensibility are qualities with universal power of seduction).

"independent but repressed within" is a nice clarification. People have the desire of independence but rare are does that can mentally afford it. People buy into the image of independence propagated by the modern culture, ignoring that it goes against their nature.


But women don't like me the way I am.

They want... well I don't know what they want but whatever it is they want it's NOT me.

*laughs*

Wait, why am I even posting here?
Jason Lissel, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:58 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 7:58 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 105 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
Harry Potter:

I believe that if you drop all the images, and strip yourself naked (metaphorically speaking, of course) in front of a potential partner - in other words, when you "be yourself" - there is only a thin chance that the relationship will continue from then on. This is especially true in the beginning stages of a relationship.


This is true because of the way your brain is currently working. However, if you changed your serotonin levels, amount of alpha brain waves, etc, by keeping busy doing things you like to do, triggering EEs, and staying away from trying to get things from other people (by persuading), then you can be yourself and relationships will just happen.
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Simon T, modified 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 9:53 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/10/11 9:53 PM

RE: Love

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
To Harry:

My post was probably over optimistic and based the limited sample from my subjective experience. With women deeply influenced by the American culture, it seems hopeless to be loved as we are. I should have mention that I stopped paying attention to those women. The signs are obvious from the first minute. No surprise that my girfriend (and at the end of today will be my fiance) is Asian.

About self-pity, you might be right. Maybe I'm just lucky to not have much an issue with that. Cultivating a good sense of humor helps. The way we communicate the message is very important. For women, the medium is the message. I talk openly but I speak in a way that does't make the person feel uncomfortable. Quite the contrary. Conversation is about exchange. As I open up, she must do the same too.